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PayPal Settles NY Probe, But Faces Others
Coneasfast writes "PayPal, which is owned by eBay, has admitted misleading shoppers into believing it offered credit-card-style protection and has agreed to pay $150,000 to settle charges. There are many sites out there which are dedicated to the problems of paypal, including PayPalSucks and PaypalWarning."
Reader ipandithurts links to this related Reuters story, pointing out that the New York investigation isn't the only PalPal probe: "PayPal's practice of suspending users accounts while investigating suspicious transactions continues to be review by the FTC. While the rate of fraudulent PayPal transactions is less than one-half of one percent, the volume of more than $12.2 billion last year keeps Paypal caught in the middle of many disputes."
People I know have told be about nightmares with PayPal, but until this post I didn't realize it was so prevalent. I just closed my account, I really dislike the idea that PayPal can simply choose at will to freeze assets in any associated account.
I really believe that the amount of effort necessary to provide PayPal with security is worth the effort. PayPal is such a useful utility, especially in conjunction with eBay.
I can see, however, how they have been misleading, in all my uses of PayPal I assumed that there was credit-card style protection (as I was using a credit-card) and they should make it more evident at the very least that the actual protection is not on par with a normal credit card purchase over the internet.
Post apocalyptic gaming goodness
PayPal started as a very fast-and-loose operation in the early days of the Internet. Money transfer seems to be so simple an idea, but it's a highly regulated industry to prevent fraud and so that large transfers of money draw the attention of law enforcement just because that can help in the locating of drug dealers and terrorists... if somebody's moving thousands of dollars for no apparent reason, it at least deserves being looked into.
When eBay got involved, they started cleaning up some of PayPal's worst policies, but there's still a few more that need tweaking, and eBay has inherited a lot of trouble from the laws PayPal broke in the late 90s. I'm glad they're starting to settle these things...
Unfortunately, if anything goes wrong, you are automatically guilty until proven innocent.
I have been using paypal for a number of years and only had one issue with them. A guy lost a part for a record player I sold him, then tried to demand his money back claiming I never sent the part with the item ( i did ). He simply reversed charges on his cc and paypal did the same to me, tanking my account to -$1200. I had over 100 transactions with paypal -- this guy?? 0! and I was the one who was guilty.
I wonder what service they are going to use to pay the fine? I suggest: NoCheques!
Just on a small side-note while we're on the subject of PayPal, PayPalDamon, the CSR hired to specifically work on online relations, has quit as of last week. For those who don't visit any of the forums where PPD visited, PPD was PayPal's public face for those forums, offering PPD as a first contact for forum-goers who encountered any sort of problem(ripoffs, technical issues, etc), and generally kept the geek user base in touch with what was going on at PayPal. At this point, there are no annouced plans to replace him, and he will be missed.
My big problem with paypal... forced upgrades.
I have a big problem with the fact that after using paypal to pay some set dollar amount that the account is suspended until I give them a checking account number. I don't want to give them this information... I just want to use the service to pay for something. I don't want to use it for a checking account or anything like that. And you can't use a credit card for more than account... so basically if you don't want to send them information that credit card becomes useless. If I was a regular user with just one e-mail address, there would be no way around this at all, even with other credit cards.
Their practices leave a hell of a lot be desired... give us your info or we'll make you jump through hoops or just not service you at all. Gee.. I wonder if they sell or use that info in questionable ways.. ya think?
Why don't you embrace your slashbotness instead of living in a dreamworld?
I don't agree that PayPal should be freezing accounts so liberally, but they do need some better control and tracking. Last year about this time I had a transfer in my account from somebody I didn't know. The amount? $2,000. I could have withdrawn the money immediately and let PayPal figure it out. Instead, I e-mailed both the sender and PayPal. Neither e-mailed me back, but the money was gone in 5 or 6 days. I wasn't peeved with the mistake, they happen in real banks too, but I was peeved that I e-mailed PayPal about something that could have gotten ugly had I been cut from a lesser moral fabric, and they didn't even acknowledge they received the e-mail. Not even an auto response. I didn't even want a thank-you, just wanted to know it was being taken care of. But I digress
Perhaps the most damning evidence against Paypal is that when I change the option from pay via bank account to pay via credit card, every time, I get a Yes/No screen that specifically says that paying by bank acount transfer is as secure and safe as paying via credit card. This is not true, and this language will almost certainly end up coming back to haunt PayPal.
Just because i spent a lot of money in cash is not a good reason to violate my right to privacy.
.. Period.
No I'm not blind to the fact its taking place, but that doesn't make it any less wrong.
Private law abiding citizens should not be investigated on a whim by the 'authorities'
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Coming from another point of view - if you're a merchant accepting credit card, any complaints by customers will almost always result in immediate charge-back. This is actually very bad from businesses as it can take weeks to prove/disprove things.
PayPal is under fire because it's so common nowadays that when you buy things online via some sort of money-service, you are entitled to such privilege, ie auto charge back should you complain about it.
PayPal in this case is wrong for misleading customers, they should have come clean and stated clearly that they don't do charge back.
Imagine if we didn't have this 'charge-back' facility in the world as we know it, and suddenly Visa charged back a merchant's account without stating it clearly in its T&C, I'm sure Visa will be in deep water too.
"While the rate of fraudulent PayPal transactions is less than one-half of one percent, the volume of more than $12.2 billion last year keeps Paypal caught in the middle of many disputes."
If 1 out of every 200 transactions is fraudulent, I'd say that's a big problem, not a small problem, regardless of the total number of transactions.
Probably the best one I've encountered is Neteller. Especially if you're planning on using this to sell stuff, Neteller is much better than Paypal (weekly settlements of the amount in your account in excess of the pre-set "float" are done via check sent through FedEx, for instance).
I'll be deploying Neteller soon for taking online payments.
The dynamic duo of Paypal and EBay is probably the biggest source of continuous online scams around. EBay's policies for rectifying a fraudulent sale are absolutely ridiculous. We once put on a multiple item sale and a user whose account was hacked bid on all of them. We were out something like $150 on multiple transaction fees.
Did EBay do anything when we reported it? NOPE!
And Paypal payments are not protected despite any reassuring sounds they make. We used to sell on EBay but have stopped, in part because of the risk of getting scammed big-time and not being able to have anything done, either by Paypal or EBay.
For those of you considering setting up shop online, DON'T EVEN CONSIDER Paypal. They don't have any security features like the physical 3 digit code on most credit cards nowadays, and their policy of freeze-account-first, ask questions later is a joke
Criminals LOVE to rip people off electronically using credit cards since they believe, rightly so, that it isn't likely to get back to them. Happened to my parents, someone got a hold of their CC info somehow and bought $1000 worth of shit at Gamestop. The bank noticed this (Gamestop is a popular place for stolen CCs), noticed it was way outside of their normal spending, and instantly froze the card and called them.
Now the problem is, if someone commits a fradulant transaction, the seller is basically SOL if they shipped the goods. The person who's card was stolen isn't liable as per CC law, so the chargeback goes to the seller. Not a huge problem if you are a large merchant, you send it over to accounts receavable, legal, and your loss prevention group. If they find the guy, you sue him for what you lost. A much bigger deal for joe average who does not have these resources.
So, to try and protect sellers and convince them that PayPal is safe to use, they do things like this. Once PayPal has you bank info and has confirmed it, they can say with a much greater degree of confidence that you are who you claim to be. It's still not certian, of course, but much harder than just ripping off someone's CC#.
Ya, it's a pain for those of us that obey the law, but it's a necessary evil of online transactions. I jump through a lot of hoops for my buyers, I'm verified with PayPal and eBay, and I'm indipendantly verified by Equifax. It was a pain, but it helps put people at ease that I'm not going to rip them off.
What percentage of total online credit card transactions are fradulant? If it's around .5%, then I'd say PayPal is fine, they are just like anyone else. If it's .001%, then yes, PayPal has a problem.
Stastics are useful only in a greater context. My favourite example:
Nearly ALL deaths due to cancer happen only in developed countries. Cancer-caused deaths in the third world are quite rare. So, clearly, there is something evil in the developed world that causes cancer, right?
Wrong. The reason is, of course, people in the third world die of something else before cancer ever has a chance to kill them, malaria is a huge killed, for example. Well there are almost no malaria cases in the United States, since we can easily cure it. Given our ability to cure more basic killers, you get the more advanced and difficult stuff like cancer that eventually gets someone.
So this percentage isn't really relivant unless you can cite the larger picture of online fraud. If 10% of online transactions are fradulant and only 0.5% of PayPal ones are, then PayPal is doing a bangup job.
I really dislike PayPal's policies. As a seller there is no protection against digital goods. I sold something for $250 to someone. Then several days later I get an e-mail from PayPal stateing it was a stolen account and they take the funds out of my account. As a seller I have no way of knowing the account is stolen or not. The owner of the account and PayPal should be held reliable for stolen accounts. Not me as the seller.
Paypal then showed my account was "negative," which I ignored until they forwarded my account to their nasty collection agency, NCO financial systems.
On the advice of my lawyer, I paid the agency and sued Paypal in Small Claims Court. They claim I can't do that and arbitration is mandatory, but offered to split the difference and call it a day (in other words, it's worth filing a case if you've been screwed, since settling is easier than fighting). I might go that route, but one thing I know is that I'll never use Paypal again and I recommend that my friends also don't.
Yes, I've filed a complaint with my state attorney general and the FTC. I hope if enough people do, Paypal will have to end some of their most egregious, consumer-unfriendly business practices.
Be thankful you can still even access your account. A similar thing happened to me -- and I was a long-time Paypal user (since their X.com days) with hundereds of successful transactions.
After waiting eight months they finally released the frozen funds, told me that my account was no longer "limited", and that I was once again free to use the system. Unfortunately, despite telling me otherwise, they forgot to actually take the limit off.
At that point, I was so disgusted with their mistakes and the countless hoops they had made me needlessly jump through, I decided I just wanted to get rid of my personal information from their system. I just wanted to close my account, and move on.
However, because they had forgotten to take the limit off, I couldn't even close my account.
So I emailed their customer support. I forwarded them my previous correspondence, and their resposne stating that I was in the clear. I asked them to either take the limit off as they had originally stated (so I could close my account myself), or just close the account for me and remove my personal information from their system.
PayPal's response?
Thank you for contacting PayPal.
We have terminated your further use of PayPal. This termination is per PayPal's User Agreement, Acceptable Use Policy.
PayPal, in its sole discretion, reserves the right to terminate this Agreement, access to its website, or access to Service without notice for any reason and at any time."
Your account will remain locked indefinitely, and we ask that you not attempt to open a duplicate account, as any additional accounts will be locked from use as well.
We thank you for your business with PayPal.
Sincerely,
Josh
PayPal Account Review Department
PayPal, an eBay Company
Gee, thanks PayPal! And sadly I'm by no means alone in this. So keep in mind, your personal information is by no means safe in the hands of PayPal.
It's worth pointing out that European PayPal users (myself included) are now actually users/customers of PayPal (Europe) Ltd which has a physical presence over here (company offices in England as far as I can tell, possibly an extra customer service centre in Ireland).
There is a specific heap of EU legislation relating to Electronic Cash Issuers (not banks, just e-money services such as PayPal) - PayPal have now created this EU company and obtained the relevant license in order to do what they do in compliance with the European rules.
The revised ToS for affected users include:
*) that PayPal can only lock the funds related to a specific disputed transaction - not your entire account balance
*) a clear explanation of your financial position in relation to them (that your account balance represents an unsecured debt from them to you - if they tank, you might potentially be stuffed)
*) Jurisdictional stuff setting the venue for any suing of them by "us" to be England, and pointing out our right to go to the UK's Financial Ombudsman Service or the Courts for relief in the event of a dispute with them - no attempts at all at a "you cannot sue us" clause.
As a UK-based occasional PayPal user, I'm pretty pleased with this new arrangement. This move into the UK also means I could invoke the Data Protection Act to obtain any "hidden" information on my account in the event of a dispute.
These changes haven't been hidden - all EU-based members have been emailed about this and the information is on the "updates" column on the left on your main account overview page.