Slashdot Mirror
Need a Job? Move to India
WhoDaresWins writes "As U.S. jobs move abroad, more Americans are willing to work overseas like in India as per a CNN.com story. The story talks about many Americans and also Indians who are American citizens moving to India for work. This story should be an eye opener to people who feel Americans cannot work in India. With a booming economy there is a need for skilled professionals with years of experience in a western enconomy and industry. Best of all, job listings are available online." Thomas Friedman has a piece called The secret to India's success.
Its not that simple to get a visa to India. Without a visa you can't get hired.
Its not a viable option.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
I can go to India, apply for my old job and do the same work for less pay? Well that seems like the very definition of "fair trade".
its a sad day when the american dream is to movie to India.
30% Troll, 50% Underrated, 10% Interesting
Score:5, Troll
You could just stay at home and earn Indian wages
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This story should be an eye opener to people who feel Americans cannot work in India.
Yeah, let me just pack up my family, sell my house and all of my belongings, kiss off my friends, and break every tie that I have by deserting my country so I can go work for $12 an hour.
Thanks for opening my eyes. I'll take my chances here in the US.
Ryosen
One man's "Troll, +1" is another man's "Insightful, +1".
I'd arrive in Bombay only to discover they've started outsourcing. To some real hellhole. Like Antarctica. Or Detroit.
We don't edukate our kids.
I couldn't agree more!
Everyone in India is perfectly aware this Indian boom is good as long as it lasts, but it will end, and they prepare for this already. They claim their jobs will gradually move to Philippines and other countries where labour is even cheaper.
So, if you plan to go to India, remember to save for the return ticket...
Anagram("United States of America") == "Dine out, taste a Mac, fries"
Check it out, it's a good read.
Excerpt: "So I went on the web to see how easy it would be to emigrate to India. I found NOTHING. I called the Indian Embassy in Washington, DC and asked how I could emigrate to India. They didn't know what I was talking about. What the Indian Embassy was prepared to discuss was how my U.S. employer might transfer me to India for some period of time. I told them PBS had no such expansion plans to my knowledge, though they might make an exception just for me. They were also willing to discuss how I might go to India as an entrepreneur, bringing capital into the country and starting a new business there employing Indians. I told them I had no money to invest. And the idea that I'd just arrive at the Mumbai equivalent of Ellis Island looking for a job, well they found that rather amusing. You can't just move to India it turns out. Someone there has to want you -- no, they have to NEED you -- OR you have to be bringing with you a big suitcase of cash to start a business. Journeyman techies need not apply. It's interesting that Indian immigration policies are more restrictive than U.S. immigration policies. There is no true Indian equivalent, for example, of our H1-B work visas. There is no quid pro quo. But then there is also no wave of U.S. engineers clamoring to move to India."
Well honey, the way things are going, some of us may not be turned off by that.
I have one friend who's been working in switzerland for a few years now, and another who's trying to go over, too. Better job, better wages, better food, better air, hotter men... ahem. When you could live, work and play in the Alps what would you want to come back to a roach-infested apartment in America for?
I'm not trying to start a flame, just offering a different opinion than the Nouveau Patriots with their "WORK & WIN" bumper stickers. *gets off soapbox*
The House Between - Original Sci-Fi Series
The results I am seeing so far indicate that while they can do the work, as instructed, they are incapable of being creative, or adaptive, when confronted.
Yes, but they combine to form Devastator, the most powerful Ind.. er.. Decept.. oh, wait, wrong train of thought.
I said it in jest over a year ago: to stay in IT, the American should become an Indian citizen in order to be qualified to work in IT in America again.
This is kind of a new paradigm for labor, using an old paradigm for other assets. If you run a corporation in America, you register it in Delaware. If you run a cargo ship, you register it in Liberia. Now, it seems that to work in IT, you have to register your body in India.
[You have a stable society when some nut guns down a schoolyard and the law doesn't change.]
While many will point out that even a reduced salary would go farther in India, the enormous plunge in quality of life just isn't worth it (to me at least).
While spending 10 days in Mumbai and Chennai auditing Citigroup's new offshore partners, I was courted by the senior staff of one of them. "Come work for us, and you can live like a rajah! Your wife's a doctor? Forget it, she won't have to work, and she'll have servants!"
Even treated like a prince, put up in 4 star hotels, eating in the best restaurants, invited to private clubs most of the population can't get inside, my trip to India was a visit to hell.
Monstrous traffic, unbelievable overcrowding, incredible numbers of beggars, and Mumbai smelled like burning garbage... everywhere.
No thanks.
Harken back to the recent past, where workplace regulations were a dream, businesses routinely exposed their workers to deadly risk to save pitiful amounts of money, everyone worked weekends, and the minimum wage was zero dollars and zero cents.
Fighting an epic, intensely violent and brutal struggle against their aristocrats (adverseries so used to victory they had become surprisingly complacent), the proletariat of America carved out a victory, and they did it without abandoning capitalism or resorting to the dangers of political revolution - though we certainly came close on a number of occasions.
We now live in shocking wealth and splendor - a victory for the "common man" made possible through a lively democratic process and a series of reforms that dragged business owners, wailing, kicking and screaming, into the modern age - where the entire standards of what was acceptable in terms of working conditions, wages, and workplace safety changed. Yes, it cost more money. And... what a surprise - with a newly propsperous middle-class, it was also intensely profitable.
Free Trade was thus inevitable. It's the prisoner's dillemma of the modern business.
The issue has proved a bit too subtle for most people to grasp thus far, even as it impoverished America and eviscerated the progress of the middle and lower classes, handing victory after victory to regressive enterprises.
The question free trade raises is simple. Is it cheaper to produce goods and services in a society where the underclass is abused?
Why be surprised?
The American South used to produce cotton so cheap, you'd think it was picked by slaves.
The sad irony is that (with only a little help), we're doing it to ourselves. All I have to do is hold up cheap jeans, and the underclass will skewer itself on its own greed, happily selling themselves out to save money at the cash register, never wondering about the hidden costs of trade without policy, never quite realizing that they had just bought back into laissez faire capitalism.
And yes, when you admit that national boundaries can contain arbitrary laws but not trade, that is exactly what you just returned to. The fleet, famously, travels as fast as its slowest ship.
In America, when we legislated ourselves a decent life, we made it impossible to compete with those who lived indecent ones.
Of course, we shouldn't have to compete with them.
The logical extension is to ask a farm worker to find a job in a field full of slaves. His value is reduced to nothing.
"But Slavery is Illegal!" the farmworker shouts. "Not in Namibia," the slaves reply.
Free Trade is a code word. It stands for the elimination of the 1st world's gains for its ordinary people - by forcing them to compete with what they are bound to lose against: the economies of worker abuse.
Its proponents depend on the American population's ignorance of the issues. You can talk around it in circles with most people, while all the time they have carefully insulated themselves from the basic issue at hand:
Is it OK if I break the law, as long as I do it out of your sight? To people you don't care about? Maybe people in another country?
Free Trade is supposed to reduce the importance of nations and bring about the ascendance of a global community. And it has! The American Working Class is no longer in America. They are in India, China, and Indonesia! Mexico, and Costa Rica, and Guatemala! They are in Afghanistan, growing our opium, and in Iraq, pumping our oil.
So I welcome you all, prosperous last descendants of the old 1st world dream, back into the world you created.
Welcome to India. I hope they really do let you go. Just don't be surprised when you realize it's a one-way trip.
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Actually, this could probably even be done legitimately. Ostensibly US companies frequently incorporate in other countries for tax purposes, so why not incorporate in India instead? Then you really could pitch your services as outsourcing to an Indian firm. Hey you enterprising Indians over there, somebody could probably make a decent business out of setting up shell corporations for US programmers.
Remember the late 80's when we all figured the Japanese would own most of the West Coast too?
If you did think the benefits of globalisation were aimed at you, you've been mugged. When politicians and business leaders talk about globalisation they mean for *them*. They told you it would reduce costs and mean cheper products, but they didn't tell you that the reduced costs where as a result of sending your job overseas.
And if you think it's bad now, you aint seen nothing yet.
You did, and are voting for the chaps that aren't just allowing this to happen but are actively working toward it. You want it to stop? Start questioning your candidates as to their position on out-sourcing. Ask them what their position is on what amounts to selling off the IT industry in persuit of short-term gain. Ask them what they intend to do once the process of shipping your IT industry over-seas is complete and any competative edge you once had is lost.
But, but, but the Indian deserves to work too! Absolutely they do. The European and the North American also deserve to yield return on the industries nurtured in those societies. The IT industry did not pop out of the ether, and it was not forged solely on the back of private enterprise, it was built from a wide variety of national as well as private resource.
You are responsible for allowing this to happen when you allow your political leaders to persue their own business interests unchecked.
The only way you'll have a standard of living that's above what we'd consider the poverty line here (structurally sound accomodation, clean water, decent food, minimal health care) is if you get a managerial role. Indian programmers simply aren't paid that well, even relative to Indian living costs. They don't live in nice houses, they don't drive cars, they don't aspire to buying boats and retiring early. They basically aspire to not leaving debts for their children. That's why you see so many of them over here.
Now, if you're quick, you will be able to land one of those management/consulting roles. Now, next question: how long are you going to be able to keep it? Are you really skilled enough to keep ahead of a bunch of talented, enthusiastic - and, not insignificantly - native Indians?
Bonus point question: during any job reshuffle, will you be the last to go, or the first to go?
Extra credit question: when you get tired of chasing jobs that pay well enough to pay for health cover and want to move back to the US, will your period of low wages negatively impact your ability to buy your way back into the US property and financing markets? Think carefully about your answer.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Are you telling me people with Masters degrees in CS and EE need to be trained?
Do you mean to tell me that the workers who have had to train their replacements in order to receive severance pay were not skilled?
No one who is in high tech thinks that they are "entitled" to their job. We know that a requirement of the job is keeping up with new software, hardware, protocols, etc.
It is immoral to bring foreigner in any country to replace native workers. I find it disturbing that the companies then turn around and blame education, and basically ask for subsidies to do something with all the workers that they have displaced.
We are trained. We are experienced. We are tired of the excuses for "loosing" (talk about needing to be retrained!) our jobs to foreigners on our soil and in other countries. The problem is not lack of education or skills, the problem is that American high tech workers are not being allowed to compete for these jobs.
Let us compete. Force American companies to play by the rules when it comes to H-1B and L-1 visas. Level the playing field, and then less jobs will flow overseas. ginaminks.com/blog
Most of the comments I see here are from guys who feel its beneath them to go to a different country, work at a rate considerably less than what they "used" to get paid here and live out a satisfactory life. Nope, they want to live here, since they are used to their lifestyle here, live among the opulence of others (even when they dont have it), and grudge day in and day out about lost opportunities and how well the market seemed a few years ago. Sorry boss.. its true that you dont have that many options anymore, and yes, its true that corporate america has screwed you in the arse ultimately, and has chosen India as its new bed partner.
Think about this, all these software engg you see or hear about in India do not take for granted that their jobs will stay and hold for the rest of their lives. And you, God forbid!, who lives in a Capitalist community believes having a well paid job is a privilege??? I hate Corporate America, their lobbyists and the politicians who would jump in to bed with the lot if they could top their coffers, but at the same time I pity the arrogance of people who feel that its beneath them to get out of this country and look for better jobs, better wages and a better life elsewhere in the world. Yes, you might have to cut your ties for a while, you may have to sell or stash everything you got for a while, yes you might have to get new friends for a while, just imagine what you would lose out if you were to stay inside your little coccoon for the rest of your life, with out being exposed to the different people,cultures,life styles,sports out there that you didnt know about?
I have been in US for the last five years of my life and I have seen and experienced more than I could ever bargain for and I have been better off for the most. I found new friends, people who I would have otherwise never find, I found a life which was better in some ways that I could have back in India, and I found slashdot. So yes, I am better off, in my own ways.
So, get off that pedestal and start seeing the world with a whole different perspective. Learn that life and people exist outside your community. And while you are at it, get a job somewhere else in the world and find out why everyone else think American's (atleast some) are so oblivious to the rest of the world and what they think. Good luck!
Rapid Nirvana
Actually, you don't know how right you are. My father came to study (did Masters and PhD) with funding from international agencies and he came with a J visa status. That requires that he returns to his country of origin for two years (makes sense). Since I came some months after him, I was put under the same restrictions. If I had come illegally, I wouldn't have had those restrictions. Seriously, once you start studying in the US, when do you want to take a two year break from your education?
:D
Also, if you get a job (illegally), a house and other things, then you can show ties to this country and would have a better case for not being deported, whereas if you follow the law, you'd have less ties.
My case is an even more interesting one. My visa didn't support me when I turned 21 since parents can no longer sponsor their children 21 and older. That puts me in an interesting category. I'm not illegal but somewhat "out-of-status". However, if I decided to leave the country and INS found out, then I'd be barred from re-entering for 10 years. Funny how that works out isn't it
In times like these, it is helpful to remember that there have always been times like these. - Paul Harvey
In India, they have "arranged marriages"!
If that doesn't motivate you, I don't know what will...
--
Yeah. I'm a management student from India. Just wanted to clear up a few things. IT exports only constitute 3-4% of India's total exports. BPOs/IPOs employ only a few hundred thousand Indians , just a fraction of the country's work force. So the whole IT/outsourcing thing is not as important as it is made out to be... The reason the ICE (IT,Telecom ,Entertainment[India has the world's fastest growing market for mobile phones and an estimated 400 million cable tv users]) sector has such a high profile in India is because it is India's best performing and fastest growing sector. The reason India has done relatively well lately in the ICE sector is because it is free from government interference and foreign investment is encouraged. And obviously because of the huge skilled labor force.
But to move to the next level , which is to compete with China , India has to free its manufacturing sector ,open it to foreign investment , deregulate , disinvest and debureacratise. This can potentially employ literally tens of millions and take away the pressure from the IT industry.
To the angry geeks of slashdot , India might be a place which takes away their jobs by offering to do the same at 1/10th the price. But to me , as somebody who plans to have some say in India's future as an administrator and policy maker some day soon , I'm more concerned about the untapped potential in India's manufacturing sector.
It is important when you consider a country as big as India to look at the Big Picture. India already has the 4th highest PPP GDP in the world at $3 trillion . Any slight increase in the average Indian's per capita will lead to a phenomenal national growth. This can easily be achieved by opening up the economy and implematation of liberalisation and acceptance of globalisation in its totality.
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And regarding the proposal to move to India - forget it guys. Last week , I know for a fact that as many as 9000 qualified engineers competed for a single entry level position in one of India's IT companies. Not surprising because India produces 200,000 engineering graduates every year. So it is actually much easier to get a job in US than in India.
Infact I plan to try for a job in one of the top consultancy firms in US later this year if I can't get through the IAS (Indian Administrative Service) exams....
Go ahead and try. Convice your congresscritters to pass the "No Jobs Overseas" bill, and you'll find that American products and services are suddenly higher than similar products and services available for import from Asia, Europe, or India.
Used to be, the cost of information flow was expensive. If you manufactured doohickeys in Dallas, you had your customer support staff located in Dallas. With cheap communications, you can locate your CSR's anywhere, or everywhere -- to save a few pennies on every doohickey you make, which allows you to stay competitive against all the other (foreign and domestic) doohickey makers.
The free market is now global. Can't stop globalization in a free market. Don't want a free market? Try Cuba.
The cure for cancer is coming: Reovirus
the only reason IT jobs are outsourced to india is cost. English language and good education make it feasbile, but its all about the $$$. If the labor rates were anywhere near the same there wouldn't be any outsourcing there. It wouldn't matter if everyone in India had a PhD and a Nobel Prize.
All this blather obout how much smarter the Indians are is like the Japanese guy in 'Black Rain' telling Michael Douglas that 'we will own America in 10 years'. Its just bragging based on a temporary bubble. Just after that movie the Japanese economy collapsed and hasn't really recovered completely in over 15 years.
All that said, the only answer for Americans is to do what we did in the 80's/early 90's against Japan. Become more competitive. Unions, tariffs, sanctions will just kill the American IT industry and make everything more expensive in the US. We have to get off our butts and figure out how to compete.
No one said it was impossible, just that it might as well be impossible. It cost me over $30,000 to move from Los Angeles to Washington, DC -- and I was able to do it blindly without the visa hurdles, obviously. If you've tried to support two unemployed people during an apartment AND job search in a new city, you know what I'm talking about. The necessary burn rate for the first eight weeks is equal to the subsequent eight months. Unless you have already lost everything down to the shirt on your back and you're planning on walking, it's a logistical and financial nightmare.
You don't just wake up in the morning and think "gosh, I'll move to India." Moving overseas for employment is horrendously complicated if you are attempting to immigrate. When you are talking about people who have been struggling for 18-24 months already, it's a pipe dream for all but the most flush with cash. Regardless of the local laws, it would be suicide to come in without at least an entire year's budget in cash--and most countries require it, some of them require two years (see: New Zealand). For two people in most countries, that's roughly $120,000 in reserves. I'll just pull that out of my wallet. Obviously, India is cheaper, but what say we call it $10k per year per person. That's still $40,000 in burnable cash. That's undoubtedly far beyond what most of unemployed IT workers have sitting around--and if India doesn't work out, congratulations, now you're getting off a plane homeless and broke, but with all that bankable international experience. Whatever.
Besides, "you can just move to India" is so fscking abusive it makes me sick. It's basically saying "we think your life is worthless." Want to know why people accuse Indians of being arrogant about this issue? That's it. It ignores all of the cultural and social aspects to existing. "Just give up all of your family, friends, acadmic and professional relationships, oh and sell the pets too, to move to Bangalore." Unless your professional ambitions already include such ventures (in my case, they do and I have done it, so don't start with me), moving half way across the globe just for a paycheck is ludicrous.
- get fired from your job
- give up your home
- move away from your friends
- move away from your extended family
- move your family away from their family and
their friends
- move to a foriegn culture in the 3rd world
- accept a lower standard of living
- take a cut in pay
All so billionaires and millionaires can have a tiny bit more money
What a special deal!
Steve
Now now.. lets not issue blanket statements shall we..
:) (Yes, that is a blanket statement).
:)
From those last two lines, you come off as someone who absolutely has no understanding nor knowledge of India, its culture and its people.
Sure, I agree that women are abused in various parts of this country, but women arent obviously hated!! Remember, we had a woman as our Prime Minister when the rest of the world was still letting their women run around in Bikinis and swinging to pop culture
The biggest problem in India is that there are still an immensely large population that has no education, has no healthcare, has no idea how to stand up for their rights. Corrupt politicians are not delegated to the Western world, we have them as well.
The Hindu Religion (Despite being a Christian myself, I have immense respect for Hinduism and for other religions as well), does not look down upon the women, the so called "holy" individuals who wanted to bend their religion to their needs and wishes, decreed that women were inferior. As a religion and among its scriptures and texts, Hinduism has utmost regard for Woman as a Mother, Wife, Sister, Friend and an Equal. And believe me, this religion and the indian culture has existed for thousand more years than the Western Civilization and Christianity (heck, Christianity came to India way before it reached the Western world, in 52B.C when St. Thomas reached the southern tip of India). So yes, this is a Land which is steeped in culture, which has treated women with utmost respect in all corners of it, and yet has been vandalized and abused by people in power, by religious nuts, who had their own agendas.
And when United States (formerly known as Land of the Free) shudders at the thought of letting immigrants who werent born here, having a shot at being President, India has no qualms in letting the Wife of a Former Prime Minister who was born and raised in Italy, get a swipe at becoming the nation's Prime Minister. Also, voting rights for Women, We didnt had to think twice about that either.
Oh one more thing when you are still trying to comprehend.. Gay Marriage is Legal in India (we just dont let them fornicate, now thats another story!)
So please crawl back to your trailer and show not your face and your intellect to the rest of us (That if you didnt know was surely a blanket statement, but meant solely for you)
Rapid Nirvana
The IT boom is but a drop in the ocean that is the Indian economy, most of which is agriculture based. The REAL, or rather main reason that the Indian economy is booming is in agriculture, where harvests have been great for the past few years. Friedman is full of crap if he thinks a few well-off geeks will change life for the heaving masses that populate the sub-continent.