Slashdot Mirror
Need a Job? Move to India
WhoDaresWins writes "As U.S. jobs move abroad, more Americans are willing to work overseas like in India as per a CNN.com story. The story talks about many Americans and also Indians who are American citizens moving to India for work. This story should be an eye opener to people who feel Americans cannot work in India. With a booming economy there is a need for skilled professionals with years of experience in a western enconomy and industry. Best of all, job listings are available online." Thomas Friedman has a piece called The secret to India's success.
Its not that simple to get a visa to India. Without a visa you can't get hired.
Its not a viable option.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
I can go to India, apply for my old job and do the same work for less pay? Well that seems like the very definition of "fair trade".
its a sad day when the american dream is to movie to India.
30% Troll, 50% Underrated, 10% Interesting
Score:5, Troll
...this story...
libertarianswag.com
In this new "Global Economy" it only makes sense that people would be willing to move to where the work is. I was ready to move to the US for a geek-gig a few years ago. It's only "news" because the tide of immigration is shifting.
Trolling is a art,
No thanks, America is worth fighting for.
You could just stay at home and earn Indian wages
The Slashdot Paradox: "100% Overrated"
We don't edukate our kids. I'm going to move pretty soon, probably to Bangalore to start a business because only 10% of the people in San Diego can afford to buy a house now.
What if Digg added local news and a Slashdot inspired comment karma system? ---
http://houndwire.com
Is this one of those sacred monsters or is he edible. Please pass the nan.
Finally my dream of writing free software is coming true. Well, it's not entirely free, but for $300 a month it's pretty close, don't you think?
Next year on Slashdot - thinking of moving to Republic of Kongo? The software jobs paying $50 a month are all there, and you get free bowl of soup on the weekends and they don't beat you up on even days.
...and still have to pay those outrageous prices at the Quickimart! Thank you. Come again!
"What the hell is an aluminum falcon?"
If you move to India, where jobs are going because they pay dirt cheap wages, what are the chances that you'll ever be able to come BACK to the United States?
If you do, chances are you'll be in poverty because you will have saved very little and your job here will *still* be gone.
Gee, what a deal! *sigh*
This story should be an eye opener to people who feel Americans cannot work in India.
Yeah, let me just pack up my family, sell my house and all of my belongings, kiss off my friends, and break every tie that I have by deserting my country so I can go work for $12 an hour.
Thanks for opening my eyes. I'll take my chances here in the US.
Ryosen
One man's "Troll, +1" is another man's "Insightful, +1".
Every job hit I got was in the US unless Philadelphia and Illinois have been annexed by India...
So, I can get a job in India - but I don't have to go there?
Sounds like this article was posted by a headhunter.
Are we seeing a mini-exodus that signals that India is now the forerunner for the place of opportunity and a chance for success?
I think at some point the outsourcing needs to be regulated or even curbed back. I think also there should be a public list of companies that have outsourced to any foreign land and how many American jobs were lost because of it. I understand these are highly opinionated, but come on, we are cannabalizing ourselves.
I'd arrive in Bombay only to discover they've started outsourcing. To some real hellhole. Like Antarctica. Or Detroit.
Offshoring will never stop if you support the companies that do it. These companies would NOT want to give up the American consumer market for any reason. So if you want them to stop offshoring, stop buying products from companies that offshore. If the government won't do anything to help the American worker. Then the American public needs to do it themselves.
I'm not an economist, but that seems logical to me.
2015: Simpsons: India Edition introduces Abe, the stereotypical American expatriate who works at the Kwik-E-Mart.
Troll me, but fucked if I'm going to leave the good ol USA for India, when so many people from India (half of our IT staff here) are coming to the US because opportunity and life is better in general in the US. If I can't work in IT, I can work in construction, sales, anything. I can work. If I love to code that much, I can do it after work at home as a hobby.
I see no benefit to uprooting my entire life to go to India so I can write code for so little money, when I can get a temp job here that will pay the rent while I'm submitting resumes and waiting to land a job in IT in the US.
But that's just me.
Excuse my speling.
Making The Bar Project
Everyone in India is perfectly aware this Indian boom is good as long as it lasts, but it will end, and they prepare for this already. They claim their jobs will gradually move to Philippines and other countries where labour is even cheaper.
So, if you plan to go to India, remember to save for the return ticket...
Anagram("United States of America") == "Dine out, taste a Mac, fries"
I was listening to talk radio the other night, and I'm not sure whose show it was (I was just skimming through), but they were saying that one presidential candidates was proposing a tax to these big companies for outsourcing work to make up for unemployment.
I personally think (in my opinion) that's a wonderful idea. Maybe companies would think twice and start giving jobs back to those unemployed.
After all, you could pay someone from India $5 less an hour to do it, but.. you'll end up paying that back in taxes, so you won't really save much.
We have secretly replaced these Slashdot mods' sense of humor with a rusty nail. Let's see if they notice!!
Check it out, it's a good read.
Excerpt: "So I went on the web to see how easy it would be to emigrate to India. I found NOTHING. I called the Indian Embassy in Washington, DC and asked how I could emigrate to India. They didn't know what I was talking about. What the Indian Embassy was prepared to discuss was how my U.S. employer might transfer me to India for some period of time. I told them PBS had no such expansion plans to my knowledge, though they might make an exception just for me. They were also willing to discuss how I might go to India as an entrepreneur, bringing capital into the country and starting a new business there employing Indians. I told them I had no money to invest. And the idea that I'd just arrive at the Mumbai equivalent of Ellis Island looking for a job, well they found that rather amusing. You can't just move to India it turns out. Someone there has to want you -- no, they have to NEED you -- OR you have to be bringing with you a big suitcase of cash to start a business. Journeyman techies need not apply. It's interesting that Indian immigration policies are more restrictive than U.S. immigration policies. There is no true Indian equivalent, for example, of our H1-B work visas. There is no quid pro quo. But then there is also no wave of U.S. engineers clamoring to move to India."
Outsourcing is just another sign that America and the West in general needs to get its collective shit together. For too long we have ignored Education and Research. Outsourcing is just another fire under the ass of the West that it has to take these things seriously.
We are going to loose some jobs no matter what. That is a fact, but if we stop bitching about jobs moving over seas and actually took seriously and invested in Education and Research, would not have to worry so much about it. As America's we have gotten lazy and we think we are entitled to high paying tech jobs. Well, break the news to you, we're not and 550 Million Indians under the age 25 are also saying the same thing.
Forget election year protectionism speeches. Just make the average American worker more skilled and educated and less jobs will flow over seas.
That's what it is all about. You heard it here first.
Linux O Muerte!
Friedman apparently spent a couple weeks in Bangalore recently. He's been writing about his experiences in his New York Times column (the tinfoil-hatted masses thank michael for linking to a mirror that doesn't require signing over your mortal soul). The gist of what he says is that the outsourcing of programming grunt work to India still leaves the creative work in America. This is not to say that Indians are uncreative people, good for nothing but code monkeys. Rather, the American firms choose not to outsource the creative work. Of course, the day may come (and given some of the driven, intelligent Indians I've known, I'm sure it will) where the Indian firms that began by doing outsourced code start developing ideas of their own to compete with the American firms. This may sound like Doomsday for some of you whose jobs hang in the balance, but I'm an optimist, and I believe that the American economy (and its workers) can adapt to the change. Goodness knows it's happened before.
"Den som vover mister Fodfaeste et Oieblik; den som ikke vover mister Livet." -Soren Kierkegaard
The results I am seeing so far indicate that while they can do the work, as instructed, they are incapable of being creative, or adaptive, when confronted.
Yes, but they combine to form Devastator, the most powerful Ind.. er.. Decept.. oh, wait, wrong train of thought.
American's look down upon the third world as a shitty place. American's think that when they militarily conqured Japan they became masters of it. When Japanese progressed to challenge American industrial might, the American just pooped in their pants and used muscle techniques with the Japanese. This is nothing new to those of us living in places like India. The Britishers had the same arrogance and even racial superiority written all over (Just read any Raj era literature). When third-world opposed American businesses selling sugar water as cola and repatriating millions of dollars that is a trade barrier. And we are then given lessons in the greatness of free-trade. American's bring is huge industrial production capabilities that disturb the local employment structure. When third world complains it is said the progress is inevitable and productivity is more important than living wages for workers. When Indians create world-class (CMM Level 5) software delivery systems benefiting the American business they are accused of stealing jobs. Why is improved cost-benefit not a good thing? If a minuscle number of Americans prefer to go to grad schools how are Indians at fault for this? This is just the beginning pals, more is yet to come.
I have a little piece on the secret to India's success.
CHEAP LABOR
Thank you, I'll have another deep probing piece next week.
I can't find the article, but I read a good piece about an IT Manager in Boston was forced to outsource to save money by the CEO of their company.
Instead, he looked at what they would pay an Indian contractor including costs of working with him overseas ($42,000) and hired people locally, like college graduates, to do the work instead. So granted, some poor programmer making $65,000 is out of a job, but at least that job stayed in the USA and went to some college graduate.
Hopefully this will be the trend, I don't like the fact that everyone in IT is going to be looking at a pay cut, but it's better than losing all our jobs/productivity to India.
$.02
Check out the best P2P sharing website: MEDIACHEST.COM
Right off the bat, this is wrong. The number of jobs being currently outsourced is fairly miniscule in comparison to the total number of jobs in the US. Somehwere less than a million jobs have gone overseas in a workforce of 130 million.
It's weird how slashdot is so pro-freedom, yet so against free markets and free trade when it can potentially affect them negatively. In the end, this outsourcing will only make the US a more efficient workforce and benefit all consumers.
Slashdot Moderation: From positive to terrible in 2 "insightful" posts.
I said it in jest over a year ago: to stay in IT, the American should become an Indian citizen in order to be qualified to work in IT in America again.
This is kind of a new paradigm for labor, using an old paradigm for other assets. If you run a corporation in America, you register it in Delaware. If you run a cargo ship, you register it in Liberia. Now, it seems that to work in IT, you have to register your body in India.
[You have a stable society when some nut guns down a schoolyard and the law doesn't change.]
...the excess people can work at the local Chut-Nee-Mart. Just imagine Johnny American saying "Thank you, come again." Maybe he has a degree from CalTech (not Calcutta Technical Institute, in this case).
Seriously, though, this seems like a bad idea. Someone above mentioned the earnings differential. Sure, you'll be okay in India, but you'll have nothing if you come back stateside. Also, it seems like bad news to go where
a) there are already tons of hard-working programmers readily available from pretty good (and more importantly, rigorous) schools like the various IIT's in India and
b) the jobs are right now (what happens if India realy DOES get saturated?).
I do like the idea of simply cutting people's wages here and hiring domestic workers. I know if I were at risk of being laid off, I'd be willing to take a sizable paycut to avoid unemployment.
Trust me on this. You can't drink the water. The pollution is overwhelming and you'd never be able to afford to move back to the US, since you'll be making a fraction of the amount of money. Also, imagine working in Mumbai or Hydreabad (if it's still standing) and dealing with approximately 10x the amount of people and unregulated traffic than NYC or LA. On top of that, you have a third world country emergency system (good luck if you get sick or injured).
;-)
I know Indians will find my post possibly offensive, but I've been there. It's like being on another planet and if you want major culture shock, go ahead. The poverty and pollution will make you jump on a plane back to the US in a minute.
Besides, all the programmers and engineers will be smarter than you anyway, so why bother.
now they'll steal our jokes like:
"Someone set us up the Bombay"
thelikesofwhich.com
While many will point out that even a reduced salary would go farther in India, the enormous plunge in quality of life just isn't worth it (to me at least).
While spending 10 days in Mumbai and Chennai auditing Citigroup's new offshore partners, I was courted by the senior staff of one of them. "Come work for us, and you can live like a rajah! Your wife's a doctor? Forget it, she won't have to work, and she'll have servants!"
Even treated like a prince, put up in 4 star hotels, eating in the best restaurants, invited to private clubs most of the population can't get inside, my trip to India was a visit to hell.
Monstrous traffic, unbelievable overcrowding, incredible numbers of beggars, and Mumbai smelled like burning garbage... everywhere.
No thanks.
Food, clothing, entertainment and services are much cheaper. Method of transportation depends upon location. And with the job, you'd be middle class or higher. You'd definitely afford laptops and internet access. The range between the poor and rich is huge in India. But you would be on the higher end, so I don't think you'd have to worry.
In times like these, it is helpful to remember that there have always been times like these. - Paul Harvey
he runs a website devoted to american jobs, what the hell do you think he'd say on national TV? that there really aren't any, so nobody should pay for his service?
And where else can a taxi driver and his two passengers stop and squat for a quick dump on the side of the road while they discuss perl programming. America really should embrace such cultural diversity.
Telecommuting! What about socialization?
They had a lot of pressure from their parents and family to return and the availability of jobs finally convinced them.
In addition, to the higher standard of living in Indian, they had the opportunity to buy a house (impossible in Britain on their wages) and a family. One of the fellows had an arranged marriage waiting for him when he returned.
These fellows are not software sweat-shop or call-center detritus. They are gifted database developers who left Britain to return to India. They were a real asset to the company.
This country made it difficult for them to stay and the change in Indian economy made it easy for them to return.
While I'm not arguing that outsourcing is harmless, it would be useful if people educated themselves adequately on the subject. The Economist in particular has had many quality articles on the subject (like this one). Here's a particular quote of interest...
"Government statisticians reckon that outsourced jobs are responsible for well under 1% of those signed up as unemployed. And the jobs lost to outsourcing pale in comparison with the number of jobs lost and created each month at home. Even here, the rate of job "churn" has, for unclear reasons, been falling since mid-2001."
Food for thought at least...
Harken back to the recent past, where workplace regulations were a dream, businesses routinely exposed their workers to deadly risk to save pitiful amounts of money, everyone worked weekends, and the minimum wage was zero dollars and zero cents.
Fighting an epic, intensely violent and brutal struggle against their aristocrats (adverseries so used to victory they had become surprisingly complacent), the proletariat of America carved out a victory, and they did it without abandoning capitalism or resorting to the dangers of political revolution - though we certainly came close on a number of occasions.
We now live in shocking wealth and splendor - a victory for the "common man" made possible through a lively democratic process and a series of reforms that dragged business owners, wailing, kicking and screaming, into the modern age - where the entire standards of what was acceptable in terms of working conditions, wages, and workplace safety changed. Yes, it cost more money. And... what a surprise - with a newly propsperous middle-class, it was also intensely profitable.
Free Trade was thus inevitable. It's the prisoner's dillemma of the modern business.
The issue has proved a bit too subtle for most people to grasp thus far, even as it impoverished America and eviscerated the progress of the middle and lower classes, handing victory after victory to regressive enterprises.
The question free trade raises is simple. Is it cheaper to produce goods and services in a society where the underclass is abused?
Why be surprised?
The American South used to produce cotton so cheap, you'd think it was picked by slaves.
The sad irony is that (with only a little help), we're doing it to ourselves. All I have to do is hold up cheap jeans, and the underclass will skewer itself on its own greed, happily selling themselves out to save money at the cash register, never wondering about the hidden costs of trade without policy, never quite realizing that they had just bought back into laissez faire capitalism.
And yes, when you admit that national boundaries can contain arbitrary laws but not trade, that is exactly what you just returned to. The fleet, famously, travels as fast as its slowest ship.
In America, when we legislated ourselves a decent life, we made it impossible to compete with those who lived indecent ones.
Of course, we shouldn't have to compete with them.
The logical extension is to ask a farm worker to find a job in a field full of slaves. His value is reduced to nothing.
"But Slavery is Illegal!" the farmworker shouts. "Not in Namibia," the slaves reply.
Free Trade is a code word. It stands for the elimination of the 1st world's gains for its ordinary people - by forcing them to compete with what they are bound to lose against: the economies of worker abuse.
Its proponents depend on the American population's ignorance of the issues. You can talk around it in circles with most people, while all the time they have carefully insulated themselves from the basic issue at hand:
Is it OK if I break the law, as long as I do it out of your sight? To people you don't care about? Maybe people in another country?
Free Trade is supposed to reduce the importance of nations and bring about the ascendance of a global community. And it has! The American Working Class is no longer in America. They are in India, China, and Indonesia! Mexico, and Costa Rica, and Guatemala! They are in Afghanistan, growing our opium, and in Iraq, pumping our oil.
So I welcome you all, prosperous last descendants of the old 1st world dream, back into the world you created.
Welcome to India. I hope they really do let you go. Just don't be surprised when you realize it's a one-way trip.
Want to Know How to Cheat the GPL? Read On!
Actually, this could probably even be done legitimately. Ostensibly US companies frequently incorporate in other countries for tax purposes, so why not incorporate in India instead? Then you really could pitch your services as outsourcing to an Indian firm. Hey you enterprising Indians over there, somebody could probably make a decent business out of setting up shell corporations for US programmers.
Remember the late 80's when we all figured the Japanese would own most of the West Coast too?
If those 5000 jobs are worth 11 billion dollars annually , then perhaps we should be trying to emigrate to India. I'd take those wages for a couple years.
However, I know that my compnay has been laying people off over the past couple years, declining to hire locally, and now employs ~200 people in Bangalore, as well as a bunch in the Phillipines. And we're not a huge company...
5000 my ass.
Laugh while you can, monkey-boy!
If you did think the benefits of globalisation were aimed at you, you've been mugged. When politicians and business leaders talk about globalisation they mean for *them*. They told you it would reduce costs and mean cheper products, but they didn't tell you that the reduced costs where as a result of sending your job overseas.
And if you think it's bad now, you aint seen nothing yet.
You did, and are voting for the chaps that aren't just allowing this to happen but are actively working toward it. You want it to stop? Start questioning your candidates as to their position on out-sourcing. Ask them what their position is on what amounts to selling off the IT industry in persuit of short-term gain. Ask them what they intend to do once the process of shipping your IT industry over-seas is complete and any competative edge you once had is lost.
But, but, but the Indian deserves to work too! Absolutely they do. The European and the North American also deserve to yield return on the industries nurtured in those societies. The IT industry did not pop out of the ether, and it was not forged solely on the back of private enterprise, it was built from a wide variety of national as well as private resource.
You are responsible for allowing this to happen when you allow your political leaders to persue their own business interests unchecked.
I ran my Monster query [(unix or linux) AND (perl OR shell OR scripting OR debian OR "red hat" OR solaris OR admin OR administrator OR web OR apache) AND NOT "work at home"] against US jobs:
Query Results
Then the SAME query against Indian jobs:
Query Results
79 for US, 3,433 for India. Yep, and now I'm even more depressed, and that's saying quite a bit. I have GOT to get out of this industry as soon as possible.
El riesgo vive siempre!
The only way you'll have a standard of living that's above what we'd consider the poverty line here (structurally sound accomodation, clean water, decent food, minimal health care) is if you get a managerial role. Indian programmers simply aren't paid that well, even relative to Indian living costs. They don't live in nice houses, they don't drive cars, they don't aspire to buying boats and retiring early. They basically aspire to not leaving debts for their children. That's why you see so many of them over here.
Now, if you're quick, you will be able to land one of those management/consulting roles. Now, next question: how long are you going to be able to keep it? Are you really skilled enough to keep ahead of a bunch of talented, enthusiastic - and, not insignificantly - native Indians?
Bonus point question: during any job reshuffle, will you be the last to go, or the first to go?
Extra credit question: when you get tired of chasing jobs that pay well enough to pay for health cover and want to move back to the US, will your period of low wages negatively impact your ability to buy your way back into the US property and financing markets? Think carefully about your answer.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
I have several co-workers that are Indian. They say that the starting wage for someone out of college in India, in those high-wage markets is like 10,000 rupees a month. This is about $2000 US a month.
However, for 1000 rupees a month, you can get yourself a butler/servant. As well, rent is like 1000 rupees a month, meaning you have several thousand rupees left to do what you want.
If you have more experience, I would think 20,000 rupees a month is more reasonable, which means that you could easily save $3000 US dollars a month and still live like a king, which is not bad at all. Even assuming 0% interest except inflation and no raises, after 10 years you could come back with almost $400,000 US. Not too bad...
However, hell would freeze over before I moved to India... I'd rather just take my chances here in the US.
India is not where the job influx will occur soon there will be demanding more then what the businesses want to give. They are in the limelight now but will soon be replaced.
The question is which world Government can be purchased to do work? Which region is stable enough to get stuff done.
I would look to Africa as the next employment center if it passes by the Middle East. Key here is business needs stability not Democracy. They need a stable pro-business exploitation. That is a Government who will make sure it is profitable for the few at the expense of the many.
One thing to note is that India is not creating anything new. It is just the center of work. When the Companies who are there feel that they will get better ROI else where the move will occur.
So what truly the US and the Industrialized world needs is more Investment in innovation.
Remember I need some capital to purchase the goods to make the prototypes, which will become the templates for the Factories. If I do not have this Investment, guess what all the education and study will be worth $0.00 in any currency. Can not wait till India realizes she has no Industry to call her own and that she is at the mercy of the business which are higher then your Government.
Much more opinion to say but will soon go off topic. By the way, vote come November then Protest at the Swearing in Ceremony for Employment because the Unemployed are excellent Recruits for any cause and the smaller the Establishment the easier the task is.
Most of the comments I see here are from guys who feel its beneath them to go to a different country, work at a rate considerably less than what they "used" to get paid here and live out a satisfactory life. Nope, they want to live here, since they are used to their lifestyle here, live among the opulence of others (even when they dont have it), and grudge day in and day out about lost opportunities and how well the market seemed a few years ago. Sorry boss.. its true that you dont have that many options anymore, and yes, its true that corporate america has screwed you in the arse ultimately, and has chosen India as its new bed partner.
Think about this, all these software engg you see or hear about in India do not take for granted that their jobs will stay and hold for the rest of their lives. And you, God forbid!, who lives in a Capitalist community believes having a well paid job is a privilege??? I hate Corporate America, their lobbyists and the politicians who would jump in to bed with the lot if they could top their coffers, but at the same time I pity the arrogance of people who feel that its beneath them to get out of this country and look for better jobs, better wages and a better life elsewhere in the world. Yes, you might have to cut your ties for a while, you may have to sell or stash everything you got for a while, yes you might have to get new friends for a while, just imagine what you would lose out if you were to stay inside your little coccoon for the rest of your life, with out being exposed to the different people,cultures,life styles,sports out there that you didnt know about?
I have been in US for the last five years of my life and I have seen and experienced more than I could ever bargain for and I have been better off for the most. I found new friends, people who I would have otherwise never find, I found a life which was better in some ways that I could have back in India, and I found slashdot. So yes, I am better off, in my own ways.
So, get off that pedestal and start seeing the world with a whole different perspective. Learn that life and people exist outside your community. And while you are at it, get a job somewhere else in the world and find out why everyone else think American's (atleast some) are so oblivious to the rest of the world and what they think. Good luck!
Rapid Nirvana
I would like a traveling web programming position in the Tuscany region. Preferably having an office with a Mediterranean view from a one of the villas of Cinque Terre. I'm not so sure about India...so is this too much to ask?
Actually, you don't know how right you are. My father came to study (did Masters and PhD) with funding from international agencies and he came with a J visa status. That requires that he returns to his country of origin for two years (makes sense). Since I came some months after him, I was put under the same restrictions. If I had come illegally, I wouldn't have had those restrictions. Seriously, once you start studying in the US, when do you want to take a two year break from your education?
:D
Also, if you get a job (illegally), a house and other things, then you can show ties to this country and would have a better case for not being deported, whereas if you follow the law, you'd have less ties.
My case is an even more interesting one. My visa didn't support me when I turned 21 since parents can no longer sponsor their children 21 and older. That puts me in an interesting category. I'm not illegal but somewhat "out-of-status". However, if I decided to leave the country and INS found out, then I'd be barred from re-entering for 10 years. Funny how that works out isn't it
In times like these, it is helpful to remember that there have always been times like these. - Paul Harvey
This article pretty much sums up the essence of Thomas Friedman:o mas_friedma n.html
http://www.exile.ru/185/outsourcing_th
Basicly he is a person who is relatively sure that his job will never be outsourced as long as he keeps writing articles about how outsourcing is good for everyone.
Well, not to be a butt-head, but...
I cannot believe that there are still people that think a programmer or sysadmin type has some divine right to earn USD$80,000!
We live in a global economy. Deal with it. Every heard of that new-fangled thingy called the "In-Ter-Net?" Guess what? It reduces the effect of the "distance" variable to nearly zero in some equations!
If your only redeeming quality, to your employter, is that fact that you are "near", and some other person is "far", guess what -- maybe you can get a job as Grover on Sesame Street, after your boss cans your a**.
If you have chosen a lifestyle that demands a high income for commodity work, then get prepared to walk away from your house and car. The days of Trade Unions dicatating, and IT people demaning, high wages is almost over.
-- -pjk Perry Kundert perry@kundert.ca http://kundert.2y.net
I can however say I've had great luck in Brazil. I moved here after the market imploded in 2001. The java market is hot, most places I've worked at let me use linux, and culturally its very kool. The currency is 3 Reals to 1 dollar, so its competively priced on the market.
As far as work visas, they are almost impossible to get, as it is most everywhere. I was able to find work under the table though, and then eventually got married and automatically became legal.
I'm very happy - no regrets whatsoever. In fact, seemed like a good time to leave the states - I haven't been back since.
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen Hawking
I don't know if I agree (in my experience, most outsourcers in poorer countries are in a far better position than American labor of the early 20th century) but that was a well-put argument.
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
Friedman bloviates further, using the T-shirt anecdote to tout American superior innovation that renders these outsourced job losses as trivial.
But once again, the reality detached scribe is exposed again. This time, famed progressive cartoonist Tom Tomorrow got the straight dope on Friedman's "Americans profiting from their unemployment" spiel. It turns out, that the savvy entrepreneur highlighted in Friedman's piece is neither American nor unemployed.
Then, Friedman fired off a missive to the skeptical cartoonist in defense of his corporatist claptrap:
Mr. Tomorrow treaded on and located the enterprising zazzle.com proprietor, eager to discover if his tech career unemployment had led to new found riches. Here is how Mr. Gary Young answered the query:
AZspot
"We've ignored education and Research..."
But, one can't help but see the commoditization of high tech skills that has gone on over the past 2 years all over the world. (even pre-9/11).
Dr. Norman Matloff's 1999 study on immigration and high tech work is finally resonating with the average Joe. But the cheapening of the work force, both foreign and domestic continues. Just check out the March 11, 2004CNN Lou Dobbs transcripts from last night's program on increasing the H1-B quota (again), and later on in the program a chat with a Republican congressman about the rosy future in high tech and the coming job shortages (chuckle). How many more fake high tech developer "shortages" do we need to endure?
Argh! Perhaps if they moved all the business jobs to India, the Indian replacements wouldn't try to things like that to the English language.
Well fine, lets all creatovate new words into the language. It does not matter how uglyscusting they sound, or whether a perfectly adequasufficient synonym already exists.
${YEAR+1} is going to be the year of Linux on the desktop!
For one, you've now got a common currency among other EU member states. Which in turn makes it more attractive to move among EU countries easily. If I could move to Turin (my favorite Northern Italian city, believe it or not) I'd do it in a heartbeat. It's in close proximity to other great European cities. What is Mumbai close to?
In India, they have "arranged marriages"!
If that doesn't motivate you, I don't know what will...
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Perhaps not quite first world, but a lot closer to the US than to India in living conditions. 3 years ago when I last checked I could move to Spain and get a job, no more paperwork required. The only restriction is I could not stay in the country for more than 3 months at a time, but just going to France for a weekend (only a couple hour drive) is the obvious way around that restriction. (The only hard part is getting proof that you visited, with the EU there is nobody to stamp your passport)
My Spanish isn't good enough to get a good job there, and I really didn't try. Nice country though, I wouldn't mind living there.
Monstrous traffic, unbelievable overcrowding, incredible numbers of beggars, and Mumbai smelled like burning garbage... everywhere
wait a minute are you talking about New York city?
Yeah. I'm a management student from India. Just wanted to clear up a few things. IT exports only constitute 3-4% of India's total exports. BPOs/IPOs employ only a few hundred thousand Indians , just a fraction of the country's work force. So the whole IT/outsourcing thing is not as important as it is made out to be... The reason the ICE (IT,Telecom ,Entertainment[India has the world's fastest growing market for mobile phones and an estimated 400 million cable tv users]) sector has such a high profile in India is because it is India's best performing and fastest growing sector. The reason India has done relatively well lately in the ICE sector is because it is free from government interference and foreign investment is encouraged. And obviously because of the huge skilled labor force.
But to move to the next level , which is to compete with China , India has to free its manufacturing sector ,open it to foreign investment , deregulate , disinvest and debureacratise. This can potentially employ literally tens of millions and take away the pressure from the IT industry.
To the angry geeks of slashdot , India might be a place which takes away their jobs by offering to do the same at 1/10th the price. But to me , as somebody who plans to have some say in India's future as an administrator and policy maker some day soon , I'm more concerned about the untapped potential in India's manufacturing sector.
It is important when you consider a country as big as India to look at the Big Picture. India already has the 4th highest PPP GDP in the world at $3 trillion . Any slight increase in the average Indian's per capita will lead to a phenomenal national growth. This can easily be achieved by opening up the economy and implematation of liberalisation and acceptance of globalisation in its totality.
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And regarding the proposal to move to India - forget it guys. Last week , I know for a fact that as many as 9000 qualified engineers competed for a single entry level position in one of India's IT companies. Not surprising because India produces 200,000 engineering graduates every year. So it is actually much easier to get a job in US than in India.
Infact I plan to try for a job in one of the top consultancy firms in US later this year if I can't get through the IAS (Indian Administrative Service) exams....
Unfortunately I do know how right I am. I would like to see some serious reform to the US immigration policy. However I would never blame anyone for taking full advantage of any loophole they can find in their efforts to make a better life for them and their family. Our country is mostly made up of people that share the same dream of freedom and prosperity for all. I am American Indian, Irish, and Dutch and my Wife is Korean. That makes our children all of the above. Immigration is good for our county as long as we don't take in too many criminals and not enough workers which the current policies seem to be slanting towards. I would like to see us close our borders and increase the number of legal immigrants coming into the US. Its just becoming a free for all that encourages dishonesty and law breaking.
Telecommuting! What about socialization?
This is a "wake-up call" for U.S. workers to redouble their efforts at education and research
Yeah, right. As usual, it's up to the people who do the actual work to figure out how to cope with these market forces. When U.S. employers have trouble making money because of foreign competition, the government is happy to step in and help them out with subsidies, tariffs and trade agreements. But when they find a bunch of smart people on the other side of the world who can live well on $20,000/year, well, then the story changes. Realities of global competition... free market forces at work... you're lucky to have that job... you don't want the government to run your life, do you? Now get back to flipping those burgers.
As usual, American businesses can't see very far ahead because they're bent over picking up dimes. The average American family has more than $8000 in credit card debt. That doesn't include mortgages or our individual share of the national debt, which is more than a typical Indian programmer's annual salary. As American incomes drop, I don't know how these businesses expect us to buy all the spendy crap they are continually shoving at us.
The answers seem to be more advertising and easier credit. Or maybe they expect a flood of online orders from customers in India. Like that will happen.
Go ahead and try. Convice your congresscritters to pass the "No Jobs Overseas" bill, and you'll find that American products and services are suddenly higher than similar products and services available for import from Asia, Europe, or India.
Used to be, the cost of information flow was expensive. If you manufactured doohickeys in Dallas, you had your customer support staff located in Dallas. With cheap communications, you can locate your CSR's anywhere, or everywhere -- to save a few pennies on every doohickey you make, which allows you to stay competitive against all the other (foreign and domestic) doohickey makers.
The free market is now global. Can't stop globalization in a free market. Don't want a free market? Try Cuba.
The cure for cancer is coming: Reovirus
Those of us in IT departments really need to get over the idea of being entitled to job security. Why is the "jobless recovery" jobless? Because of increased productivity, i.e., companies can do more with fewer people. Where does increased productivity come from? Many places, but one of the main places is from the automation that IT departments provide. We have been putting other folks out of jobs at a furious rate. We don't have typing pools or mailrooms or nearly as many administrative assistants and customer reps because of email, web sites, and other stuff that comes out of IT.
We rationalize it by saying those jobs sucked anyway...and it's probably true...but many people were depending on those sucky jobs to pay their bills and feed their families. If it's wrong for your boss to save money by exporting your job to India, then it's wrong for your boss to save money by replacing someone else's job with code that you wrote or an application that you administer. If you believe that the people that you helped to displace eventually found other, better jobs, then you have to believe that that is what you will have to do when the time comes.
I don't like this, I don't like saying it, and I don't like management, but it's totally hypocritical to expect mercy after we have acted as executioners for so many years.
the only reason IT jobs are outsourced to india is cost. English language and good education make it feasbile, but its all about the $$$. If the labor rates were anywhere near the same there wouldn't be any outsourcing there. It wouldn't matter if everyone in India had a PhD and a Nobel Prize.
All this blather obout how much smarter the Indians are is like the Japanese guy in 'Black Rain' telling Michael Douglas that 'we will own America in 10 years'. Its just bragging based on a temporary bubble. Just after that movie the Japanese economy collapsed and hasn't really recovered completely in over 15 years.
All that said, the only answer for Americans is to do what we did in the 80's/early 90's against Japan. Become more competitive. Unions, tariffs, sanctions will just kill the American IT industry and make everything more expensive in the US. We have to get off our butts and figure out how to compete.
10,000 Rs equal about 222 dollars not 2000 dollars. You may have rework your math and conclusions ...
(One $ buys about 45 rupees.)
So, you can't really save $3000. To save $3000 you would have to be saving Rs 135,000 every month. Some people make this kind of money, but not as many as you seem to believe.
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To see a world in a grain of sand, and then to step back and see the beach where the sand lies
No one said it was impossible, just that it might as well be impossible. It cost me over $30,000 to move from Los Angeles to Washington, DC -- and I was able to do it blindly without the visa hurdles, obviously. If you've tried to support two unemployed people during an apartment AND job search in a new city, you know what I'm talking about. The necessary burn rate for the first eight weeks is equal to the subsequent eight months. Unless you have already lost everything down to the shirt on your back and you're planning on walking, it's a logistical and financial nightmare.
You don't just wake up in the morning and think "gosh, I'll move to India." Moving overseas for employment is horrendously complicated if you are attempting to immigrate. When you are talking about people who have been struggling for 18-24 months already, it's a pipe dream for all but the most flush with cash. Regardless of the local laws, it would be suicide to come in without at least an entire year's budget in cash--and most countries require it, some of them require two years (see: New Zealand). For two people in most countries, that's roughly $120,000 in reserves. I'll just pull that out of my wallet. Obviously, India is cheaper, but what say we call it $10k per year per person. That's still $40,000 in burnable cash. That's undoubtedly far beyond what most of unemployed IT workers have sitting around--and if India doesn't work out, congratulations, now you're getting off a plane homeless and broke, but with all that bankable international experience. Whatever.
Besides, "you can just move to India" is so fscking abusive it makes me sick. It's basically saying "we think your life is worthless." Want to know why people accuse Indians of being arrogant about this issue? That's it. It ignores all of the cultural and social aspects to existing. "Just give up all of your family, friends, acadmic and professional relationships, oh and sell the pets too, to move to Bangalore." Unless your professional ambitions already include such ventures (in my case, they do and I have done it, so don't start with me), moving half way across the globe just for a paycheck is ludicrous.
Normally, i detest whiners who complain about moderation, but this is a truly exceptional case.
How is it that a post that starts off with a "cleverly" disguised racial epithet (Translation for the clue impaired: "Fuh Q Raghead" = Fuck you raghead.) has anything other than flamebait mods?
The rest of the argument is entirely redundant when taken in context with the rest of the posts on this article, so what's the excuse?
Note to the cretin who wrote the original post: "raghead" is most often applied to Arabs, not Indians. If you're going to be a bigotted asshole you should at least do it right!
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
- get fired from your job
- give up your home
- move away from your friends
- move away from your extended family
- move your family away from their family and
their friends
- move to a foriegn culture in the 3rd world
- accept a lower standard of living
- take a cut in pay
All so billionaires and millionaires can have a tiny bit more money
What a special deal!
Steve
Yay! No more poverty, disease, or corruption! Thanks to some nebulous feel-good bullshit Friedman fervently believes, India is no longer "a synonym for massive poverty."
The good timing starts with India's decision in 1991 to shuck off decades of socialism and move toward a free-market economy with a focus on foreign trade. This made it possible for Indians who wanted to succeed at innovation to stay at home, not go to the West.
So, starting in 1991, "Indians who wanted to succeed at innovation" no longer had to leave India. Uh huh, cool. I always like how Friedman is able to ignore distracting facts and cut through the haze of reality to make his rhetorical points.
His conclusion:
As one Indian exec put it to me: The Americans' self-image that this tech thing was their private preserve is over. This is a "wake-up call" for U.S. workers to redouble their efforts at education and research. If they do that, he said, it will spur "a whole new cycle of innovation, and we'll both win. If we each pull down our shutters, we will both lose."
Empty bullshit pure as the driven snow.
UNIX Systems Administration Guru (4 positions) ...[more]
Unique opportunity for UNIX gurus to enhance and apply their sysadmin proficiency by working with a team of cutting-edge UNIX experts to manage world-wide enterprise class servers. Exposure to system
Career Level: Mid Career (2+ years of experience)
Education Level: Bachelor's Degree-Graduate Degree (BA, BSc, BCom)
Job Type: Employee
Job Status: Full Time
Salary: From 700,000.00 to 1,000,000.00 INR per year
I got all excited until I saw the conversion rate
Live mid-market rates as of 2004.03.12 18:21:57 GMT.
1,000,000.00 INR India Rupees = 22,104.33 USD United States Dollars
1 INR = 0.0221043 USD
1 USD = 45.2400 INR
DOH! Granted I could probably live well on 22k in India, but I'd miss good baseball and p0rn
Why worry? Each of us is wearing an unlicensed "nucular" accelerator on his back.
Sig changed for readability by G.W.
I moved to the U.S. at the age of fifteen and now, almost ten years later, I cannot imagine living elsewhere. You might think that I have become a spoiled young brat with a nice BMW in his garage because I say these things, and you're wrong. I am just an average American dude who works as a sys. admin and pays his taxes. Why would I maintain my average status in the United States if I could get a better life in India? Here are my reasons.
The beauty of the United States is its lack of a mainstream culture, an official religion and strong traditions. That is enough to keep me in this county because I can be whatever I want to be and theoretically I am protected under the Constitution.
I can choose my religion and whether I want to celebrate certain holidays. I am going to marry a girl of my choice and nobody will stop me from doing it. When I have kids, my daughter and my son will have equal opportunities and when they grow up, they will be allowed to date and live with their partners (regrdless of their partner's gender) before they get married. That is the beauty of the United States and this is priceless. I have visited many countries and I have met a lot of people; my experiences suggest that although the United States is not the perfect country, it is a good place to live and would like to stick with it.
Please do not get me wrong: I am not trying to put India down. I am sure that it is a great country that has a log of great people. However, if I had to choose between Boston and Bombay, I would stick with the former simply because my views are closer to Western culture and because I value personal freedoms that exist in the United States.
You act like you have a "right" to be here. You do not. This countries lack of imigration control (meaning we allow anyone to enter) has led many peoples of the world to see us as a place they can just go. Just because we have the best of everything in the world doesn't mean that anyone in world has the right to come here. America build herself and we're proud to share with others. That will change with the terrible brutalization our country is suffering for this generosity. Our boarders will be controlled eventually and hopefully we'll stop being the worlds escapees destination of choice.
By the way, if you're not under a visa you ARE an illegal alien. That's why INS won't let you back in if you leave. It's because you shouldn't be here to begin with.
I agree with your point in its entirety. See my response here.
People forget that the economy isn't something external - it's something we're all a part of. Free markets can and will be changed by people voting with their dollars, pounds, and rupees.
Free markets will never be effectively changed through legislation - there's no point in trying.
The cure for cancer is coming: Reovirus
Now now.. lets not issue blanket statements shall we..
:) (Yes, that is a blanket statement).
:)
From those last two lines, you come off as someone who absolutely has no understanding nor knowledge of India, its culture and its people.
Sure, I agree that women are abused in various parts of this country, but women arent obviously hated!! Remember, we had a woman as our Prime Minister when the rest of the world was still letting their women run around in Bikinis and swinging to pop culture
The biggest problem in India is that there are still an immensely large population that has no education, has no healthcare, has no idea how to stand up for their rights. Corrupt politicians are not delegated to the Western world, we have them as well.
The Hindu Religion (Despite being a Christian myself, I have immense respect for Hinduism and for other religions as well), does not look down upon the women, the so called "holy" individuals who wanted to bend their religion to their needs and wishes, decreed that women were inferior. As a religion and among its scriptures and texts, Hinduism has utmost regard for Woman as a Mother, Wife, Sister, Friend and an Equal. And believe me, this religion and the indian culture has existed for thousand more years than the Western Civilization and Christianity (heck, Christianity came to India way before it reached the Western world, in 52B.C when St. Thomas reached the southern tip of India). So yes, this is a Land which is steeped in culture, which has treated women with utmost respect in all corners of it, and yet has been vandalized and abused by people in power, by religious nuts, who had their own agendas.
And when United States (formerly known as Land of the Free) shudders at the thought of letting immigrants who werent born here, having a shot at being President, India has no qualms in letting the Wife of a Former Prime Minister who was born and raised in Italy, get a swipe at becoming the nation's Prime Minister. Also, voting rights for Women, We didnt had to think twice about that either.
Oh one more thing when you are still trying to comprehend.. Gay Marriage is Legal in India (we just dont let them fornicate, now thats another story!)
So please crawl back to your trailer and show not your face and your intellect to the rest of us (That if you didnt know was surely a blanket statement, but meant solely for you)
Rapid Nirvana
That's exactly how many american cities appear to canadians. They are dirty rundown slums with people living in crapshacks. In canada people don't live in crumbling, plastic wrapped houses, and our buildings and streets aren't covered with inches of grime.
True genius is grasping a situation like a peice of fruit, and peircing it just right so that it drains dry.
Actually, they probably are, but all that snow hides it.
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
I'm an American-born ethnic Indian, and I've been there many times.
It *is* a big difficulty to live there if you weren't born there. Most American-born Indians don't like it.
So if all you white people are repulsed by the idea of moving there, thank God for his mercy.
I remember living in San Diego and seeing Orange County engineers diffuse in. These people started demanding the removal of evolution from the teaching curriculum, and in general started throwing their weight around.
The average Indian wants your money, not you. Please keep your white superiority and proselytizing here in the North American Wal-Marts, where it belongs.
We had enough of you people last century.
Typically, the most senior or the oldest male is the person with the most authority.
Behave and dress in a low key and conservative manner - no bare shoulders or too-short skirts - and avoid the stereotype of Western women as aggressive and sexually forward. Since some Indians may be uncomfortable making physical contact with a woman, unless they offer to shake hands, it is better to stick to say "Hello" as a form of greeting.
Snippets from the the links on Monster.I think this Naomi Klein commentary ads a dimension to Friedman's commentary: http://rabble.ca/columnists_full.shtml?x=30806
I already addressed this "cruelty to women" in the same thread elsewhere, so heres the link. Agree or not, its up to you.
:)
Now, you speak volumes about how we abuse and devalue our women.. (Devalue is such a perfect word!). Would you care to switch on your TV?? Hmm.. how about you look at the print media, the Ads, the Sports. Everywhere you see nothing but SKIN!. Now after what America and its people has done to degrade and devalue the image of women, I am not sure there is anything left for us poor Indians to do!
Seriously dude, climb out of your hole and visit India for once. You will find it not much different than any other place you been to. Dont take what you read/watch on TV, at face value. Dont you want to find out for yourself???
You really need to stop believing what others tell you and get a job in India.
Rapid Nirvana
What I am about to say applies to capitalism in general (so don't assume it's just the computer industry; what I say should equally apply to, say, farming).
You are wrong
I think your understanding of capitalism is completely wrong. There is NO SUCH thing as CONSERVATION under capitalism. This is why capitalism can increase the wealth (eg. GDP) of a country. In fact, trade can increase the wealth of all countries that engage in it*. If your assertion were correct, this wouldn't happen (the total wealth in the world will be constant). Your conservation principle is automatically violated by the growth in wealth.
Why some don't support the present
There are many reasons people are against what is happening. Clearly some people are racist and don't want to see "other kind" get jobs. Some people on this message board have already shown that. Then there are others who are clueless when it comes to economics and somehow think that they "own" the jobs (whatever that means). I'm not any of these. I'll tell you why I'm against so-called "free trade" and the most popular form of capitalism today, neo-liberal economics.
I'm not a capitalist, and I'm not a nationalist either. I could care less about countries (I can't wait until all countries dissapear). The problem with so-called free trade is the following. We know for sure that trade benefits countries. However, the benefits can be shared in many different ways. One country can benefit completely, or the other, or in a mixture of some sort. *I* claim that what is happening is that the benefits of trade accrues to the shareholders and their corporations (what Marxists would call capitalists). I further claim that what passes for "free trade" these days is nothing more than an attempt by capitalists to undermine worker rights and environmental regulations, among others. Capitalists have always been angry for the success of the socialist policies enacted in defense of the workers (eg. minimum wage, inability to fire without cause, mandatory paid holidays, etc). You just need to read popular press or economist opinions over the last 50 years to see what I mean. What is happening now is simply removing the regulations placed by socialists in the past. When you move to a poor country, all these regulations dissapear IN THE LONG TERM.
The worker, either in India or in USA, do not benefit--although some may or may not benefit in the short term. The American worker loses because their wages are driven down (close to zero). The Indian worker loses because their job is temporary** and nothing more than a transit job. Overall, workers are worse off. A job which provided good working conditions all of a sudden doesn't have these worker benefits. I am a socialist and to me, it seems like everything we*** fought for and won won is slowly being eroded. For instance, a country like USA or Canada mandates the number of hours you work or the number of vacation days you get. The poorer countries either don't have as strong of a regulation or don't enforce it. When a job moves from USA to say Mexico, you automatically lose the worker benefits.
So that's why I am against what passes for free trade these days. Make no mistake about it: I'm in favour of trade. But the type of trade I like is called fair trade (a concept foreign to capitalists).
Capitalist defense
Finally, I'll mention what the capitalists are saying about all this. A lot of capitalists like their country so it's not as if the American capitalists are out to destroy their country. The capitalist argument was mentioned by Thomas Friedman in one of his previous articles that was mentioned on Slashdot. Basically, it says that countries benefit from trade (true) and USA, in this case, will create superior jobs to replace those lost through innovation (questionable). Of course, capitalists like Friedman don't mention that the shareholders and their corporations are the ones that benefit in the end.
My Prediction
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
A minor problem is that Friedman is full of shit, but who needs facts when you've got a newspaper to sell?
[o]_O