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U.S. Plans Targeted Draft for Computer Personnel
waytoomuchcoffee writes "The US Selective Service System is drawing up plans for a 'special skills draft'. There is already a system in place to draft health care personnel, and this system would be expanded in order to 'rapidly register and draft' computer specialists."
Type 1 diabetes was never this handy! They don't want me anywhere near the military.
to move to canada =\
Just say you don't know how to use Microsoft products.
'rapidly register and draft' computer specialists
Better go out and start writing my e-mail with Outlook Express! That will immediately prove I am not a computer specialist
If they pay more than the paltry salary I'm making now, then draft me up!
'When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.' -HST
I thought they were outsourcing these things :)
Next up: Outsourcing missile control to China...
I'm amazing. You aren't. SUCK IT
you dont know how to close I tags either!
...how do they determine who has "computer skills"? And is this really feasible? How will they make someone work for them? How will they even know if a computer programmer is a computer programmer? Do they have some kind of national database of them? This isn't anything like normal conscription, and sounds like a dodgy idea to me.
If they're drafting you for 'special skills' you're pretty unlikely to get stuck out someplace where you have a high chance of catching a bullet (or some high explosive.) This is probably far less true in the case of people with language skills, however.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
The present operation of the US Selective Service is more or less trivial because the draft system not active, and it takes an Act of Congress in order to activate it. However, an Act of Congress can also totally rewrite the rules,
The draft in its present form is also very unconstitutional because it discrimates between men and women. In this day and age, that makes it a political untouchable. To require women to register will spark protests, but to not require them to do so would lead to court injunctions halting the draft process.
Congresspeople also have learned something from the Vietnam war. If a war is so unpopular that we are out of "weekend warrior" reserves and we can't convince people to join on their own, as a politician you should be voting to force a withdrawl rather allow the war to continue. To be depleted to the point that a draft is needed in modern times is a sign that we've already lost and just can't admit it.
The only people in Congress who called for a draft during recent years have been those who oppose the president's military plans. By rolling out a draft, or even raising the possiblity of a draft, a war effort suddenly becomes less popular.
Bottom line... the Selective Service exists only as a tool to be used in a doomsday situation, just like all of the city fallout shelters that were built in the USA during the cold war to be prepared for a nuclear bomb that never came. I'd consider anything new we hear from the Selective Service to be a rarely-used bureaucracy trying to justify its existance because in tight budgets, cutting the Selective Service's staff is always a low-pain cut.
It's about a MILITARY DRAFT. One of the exemptions from draft is type 1 diabetes.
If they're this desperate for workers, is there desperation reflected in wage scales, benefits, etc?
What's a guy make with a freshly-minted bachellaureate in computer science make, working for the military? Where do most of them end up, both in geographical and task-related terms? How much control over where they put you does a new officer have?
Oh, great. This is going to be worse than the ASFAB test I took in my first undergraduate year. Before my eyes lost their 20/17 rating, I planned to fly for the Marine Corps, but I had dudes from a number of government agencies aside from the armed services calling my apartment and dropping by both home and work.
So, it is stuff like this that is going to make anonymity much more important than it is now. The problem of course is that unless you are completely disenfranchised from society your academic records are known, any published writing you have is known, your credit rating is known (believe it or not, certain government agencies look very carefully at your credit rating when recruiting you), and "virtual" persona are relatively easy to correlate with specific persons (all of you anonymous cowards take note). And all you folks that think: "Well, my Ph.D. or M.D. is going to keep me out of the draft", take note. If you are under the age of 45, we are prime candidates.
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
This reminds me that I need to vote and participate in the democratic process.
I am going into a computer engineering major at UMBC. I was approached by recruiters, and they wanted me to do ROTC. I didn't want to, because if I was going to a good college, I wasn't going to negate the benefits by being stuck in the military for 5 years afterwards. Now again, this could potentially ruin my plans for after school. I will have to vote for a candidate who will try to keep us out of any major wars that would require a draft.
Disclaimer: I am from a military family, I have nothing against the military, but I personnally don't want to join.
Can't wait to design Access databases for the government. Just hope there isn't too much data, else my listboxes might be hard to scroll.
Will they be outsourcing this draft to india as well?
This has been going on in Israel for decades. As a result, Isreal has produced some of the best computer programmer's in the world. Most of the developers end up in VERY high paying jobs once they are released from military duty.
Of course, if you don't like the draft, you could always migrate to India India.
Nothing to see here
And what exactly is with the idea of giving something back to the country that makes your way of life possible? Pretty damn typical of Slashdotters - demand everything, give nothing, and complain about it.
Why not just offer large enlistment bonuses and perhaps raise the age limits? I'll bet there are a lot of 40-something geeks who'd be willing to sign up. It would also be a lot easier politically than restarting the draft, and probably get better results: volunteers tend to do better work than draftees.
Q: What does the "B." in Benoit B. Mandelbrot stand for? A: Benoit B. Mandelbrot
note to kids at home- don't post on slashdot while you are on the phone
(sorry)
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
This doesn't make too much sense to me.
In the past 10 years, computer specialists in the military were offered large retention bonuses to stay in the military and reenlist. Now those bonuses aren't to be seen. I know from experience.
So why isn't the military trying harder to retain these already military trained computer specialists but supposedly drawing up a draft? Something doesn't jive here.
This guy is way out there
there are twin bills in the house and senate in order to conscript for active duty, rerserve military, and homeland security civilian jobs. Male and female. 18-26. Manidtory 2 years.
I forgot the bill numbers. My little sister did a paper on it for her highschool government class. I'll stake my life and reputation that it's true, though. The bills have been in the works since early in 2003 and the schedual is to bring them into effect in 2005.
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Drop and give me twenty shell scripts!
If the military want to get a bunch of computer specialists, they can just hire them. Drafts are usually only used to acquire cannon fodder because the people who get drafted are often the unrepresented class. It hardly seams fair to pay one CS student's way thought college with ROTC, and then hijack another grad's career without proper compensation.
Don't spill my secret plan to the world!
No worries about slashdotters getting drafted. We'd still have to pass the physical ...
The US Selective Service System is drawing up plans for a 'special skills draft'.
Would this include women?
Years ago in high school, a female friend once angrily declared the draft "sucked". I looked her straight in the face and said "What do you care?" "Huh?" "You' can't be drafted, only men can be." This was apparently a major revelation, and shockingly, the draft was forgotten about almost immediately.
Main theories I've heard are that a)"our nation's daughters" coming home in body bags during a war would be political suicide, and b)"women aren't as [strong/smart/whatever] as men". Oh, then there's c)"women would use their feminine wiles to distract the men busy fighting!"
Ever notice how feminists just really aren't torn up about any of that, even though most of it is deeply sexist? Also notice how Jessica Lynch was supposedly(according to the Army) beaten, raped, tortured, etc- when all evidence(and her own comments, before she developed permanent amnesia of events) point to all her injuries coming from the car accident she was in, and that Iraqi doctors took exemplary care of her? It's like the Army was saying "look, this is why you don't want women in the military! They're brave but helpless, and can get RAPED! Isn't she cute? She could be YOUR daughter!"
Please help metamoderate.
"Talking to the manpower folks at the Department of Defense and others, what came up was that nobody foresees a need for a large conventional draft such as we had in Vietnam," Flahavan said. "But they thought that if we have any kind of a draft, it will probably be a special skills draft."
The Selective Service, as it exists now, will never be called upon again according to experts. Therefore, it risks being totally deleted from the budget. Only if they can sell Congress on a modified plan do the bureaucrats keep their jobs, so of course the bureaucrats have written a modifed plan and are trying to sell it.
However, Congress doesn't seem to be buying.
...for all those jokes we made about him on Slashdot!
Liberals call everyone Nazis yet they are the closest thing to it.
Well, I always suspected it. I am a member of the US Naval Reserve and about two years ago, the NAVRES asked all of it's members to fill out a "skills profile". This profile would be used to solicit qualified members and ask them to volunteer to fill temporary billets as they arose. The program was presented as a way to find the best service member for the task and to offer them the oppurtunity to take orders for that job. A lot of the billets that open up are from 6 weeks to 9 months.
I was always dubious of doing this, becuase if there were ever a "crisis" and they REALLY needed someone with my skills, I foresaw the "volunteer oppurtunity" becoming an "involuntary recall to active duty" in a heartbeat.
I doubt this decision is directly related, but now they have a massive database of skills that they can search through and draft from first.
Veritas patesco per quaestio questio. Truth is revealed through questions.
I only use and operate free software. I could not in good conscious work with proprietary commercial solutions because of the very real harm they do to others. Would I have to qualify for consentious objector status?
How did the military manage to get such a bad reputation in the private sector? If they played their cards right, those 5 years after college should look like an MBA or Professional Project Manager on your resume, but instead they look about as good as 5 years at McDonalds. Remember: staff officer schools in Europe invented the very style of education (plus much of the content) that is being taught in business schools today, and yet look how far they have fallen.
If the military was seen as providing something to their employees, they wouldn't have a recruiting problem.
But how do they determine who has "computer skills"?
Doesn't matter. They never put you to work in your specialty anyhow.
Or do it nearly so - like the expert electronics guy they assigned to dig (by hand) trenches to drive the radar trucks into so only the antenna was above ground, back in WW II.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Amateur radio operators were an important source of technically skilled recruits during World War II. Computer hackers could fill a similar role in future conflicts. Not so much for their civilian skills, but for a pool of people with demonstrated intelligence and aptitude for technical jobs.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
There is a 'fat boys' program in all branches of the military. They force you to do the two things that most dieters can't (they typically only do one): excercise -and- reduce calorie intake.
Picture waking up at 4 every morning to "I'm gonna make you strong!".
Why don't they, like, have a special draft for lawyers? Why pick on us techies? Okay, sure they won't be much use in battle, but still.. wouldn't everyone like to see the fellas at SCO trying to put a restraining order on an Iraqi guerilla army?
"... You can't flee to Canada (or anywhere else except maybe Cuba or North Korea) anymore..."
**chokes on drink in astonishment of your stupidty**
You mean you can't flee *anywhere*? Son, sit down and tell you whom you should tell that too: the millions of illegals in THIS country.
Mama never said you AC's were very bright.
I wonder how they will be able to know if we are indeed experts in our field? Will they draft only the pioneers of our field? Only those names that have published books?
Perhaps they'll surf Monster.com for resumes.
Which is the problem with this "jobless recovery".
Too many people don't have jobs. People without jobs are NOT paying taxes. People without jobs ARE taking money in the form of unemployment benefits. If someone loses a job, that person goes from a net gain for the system to a net loss for the system.
Bush's theory is that if you give lots of money to rich people, then they'll hire more people and there will be a enough additional people paying taxes to offset the loss of the tax cut.
Except that the people being hired are NOT US citizens in the US. So the government is taking in less money because of the tax cuts and the jobs are going to India so the US citizens aren't being hired so they can't pay into the system to offset the original tax cut.
Now, this means BIGGER profits for the corporations which mean BIGGER profits for the execs of those companies.
But rich people do NOT spend money the same way the average person does. One person buying $500,000 boat is NOT the same as 25 people buying $20,000 cars.
So, tax cuts and increased profits actually yielded ZERO new jobs last month.
There seems to be a very basic flaw in your logic. Your process does not accurately predict events.
This is America, you'd think by now we'd be fighting with robot armies and other new-age weaponry.
Besides, I'd rather put effort into improving infrastructure than destroying it. Give every Iraq cable TV and start a bunch of McDonalds and they'll be too lazy and fat like us Americans to give a shit about their government.
The Doormat
If you're not outraged, then you're not paying attention.
Do you really want draftees running your IT/IS? Christ, there is enough documentation about the effectiveness of conscript vs volunteer troops out there, which pretty much make it clear that the ones who volunteer are the ones you want to have "doing stuff". A lot of that material refers to infantry (also known as the "shoot back or die" department of the armed forces) but I'm sure there is an equally significant ton of documentation about support troops.
Can you imagine the complete and utter lack of motivation of drafted rear echelon computer guys?
Besides the fact that most geeks tend not to be the most motivated people when it comes to things that are forced on them, I'd venture to guess that 50%(conservative? I think so) would be disqualified outright, for either being a bit too hefty or for other medical reasons.
Also, geeks are pretty bright and shall we say rather "inventive" when it comes to thinking up excuses (i.e. hemorrhoids) and getting doctor's notes etc.
And, of course, those not bright enough to avoid the draft are not the ones you want running your IT, but that is getting back to the whole conscript thing.
1q2w3e4r5t6y7u8i9o0pqawsedrftgthyjukilo;p'azsxdcf
Actually the army PFT is based on push ups, situps, and a 2 mile run. Pull ups are required for entry into ranger school, but they otherwise aren't a factor. There are however height&weight/body fat requirements.
Yes, my only tool is a hammer. And you're starting to look like a nail.
Perhaps they wouldn't have such a shortage of enlisted and non-commissioned technical workers if it wasn't so freakin' hard to figure out how to find and apply for the jobs! Have you ever tried to decipher a federal job posting? Ack. They never list specific skills they are looking for. I wonder if there are any recruiters that specialize in placing technical workers in federal positions? I would love the chance to work for my country using the skills that I've developed over the past 12 years, and I hear that the pension and benefits are pretty good too!
"Who hasn't slipped into the break room for a quick nibble on a love Newton before?" - Mr. Peterman.
There's more to serving your country that whether or not you agree with the President. Somehow I doubt the audience that reads slashdot is also so polically adept that they would understand all of the issues our country has to deal with on a daily basis. I don't care if there were WMD or not, we made Saddam Hussein, put him in power, and it was our job to scrape him off the sidewalk after what he did to his own people.
Most people become "liberal" and "peacenik" when it comes to the threat of being drafted. Funny how that works. :)
:)
:)
I can't stand Ashcroft and want him arrested for crimes against the Constitution, but that isn't on the draft lottery number.
The draft is an equal opportunity employer.
It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
The "bachelor's degree" = "officer" assertion hasn't been true since the seventies. Of the eight people I went through basic and AIT with, five had their B.S., in engineering, physics, physical therapy, and english (2). None of us were officers.
Three did not have their B.S. The individuals without degrees tended to make a little less money from the beginning of their service, but time in service requirements are hard to get a waiver for, and so they tended to be promoted at the same time, or a little later, than those with a degree.
Slashdot is my Mercer Box.
Aha! Clever, you just proved that you can't even keep your secret plan secret!
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
OK, so it's a time of national crisis: a few more system failures and the US goes down the pan. You're going to solve this problem by giving Slashdotters root on DoD and FBI computers?
It's a plan, but I can see a few eensy teeny flaws...
-he who laughs last, is a bit slow.
journal
Funny how all the warmongers sit in their mansions while the serfs get convinced that they are ones who have to 'kick raghead ass'. It's a crock of shit. You don't owe any goddam thing to your goddam country except to pay your taxes and defend it's borders.
"Only in their dreams can men truly be free 'twas always thus, and always thus will be."
--Tom Schulman
A shot at employment!
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Now class, can anyone tell me why there would be such a large, quite push to restaff so quickly? Mark my words, the draft will be back.
Here's my guesses:
1. If something goes really wrong this summer in Iraq or Afghanistan (like the Tet Offensive in Vietnam) then they will quickly draft and deploy before the November elections.
2. If Bush is reelected then the draft will start Jan or Feb 2005, slow for the first few months and then when they are up to speed they'll start pulling large amounts of young men.
3. If Kerry is elected I can't guess what he would do. I don't if there would be a major difference.
Watch how the US Govt handles draft, induction, training and deployment this time. You'll see companies created that go through boot together, post recruit train together, deploy together, what's left of them will get discharged together and the company disbanded. No more singles in, singles out. This is much more like WWII than Korea or Vietnam.
If you are 14 - 20 years old then I'd seriously start making plans on what you'll do. Speaking as someone who toted a 16 for his uncle I'd recommend not going at any cost. We use to say "the only thing worst than cleaning a body bag is being in one". As a parent I would do whatever it took to keep my son away from any unjust and immoral war like that clusterfuck going on in the Mid East.
As Frank Zappa once said: "What they do in Washington is take care of number one and number one ain't you. You ain't even number two."
"And a voice was screaming: 'Holy Jesus! What are these goddamn animals?'" - HST
For HR.163, go here and type hr 163 into the "Bill Number" field.
And my unit spent most of its time in the motor pool, or in the field, digging in the dirt. Not once did I train to perform a mission as a linguist with my unit while I was in uniform, because officers can't lead soldiers who aren't in the field. It doesn't get them promoted, so they uniformly oppose it. Every bit of funding for every linguist mission was cut, and the mandatory eight hours of language maintenance required for all linguists was gradually reduced to no maintenance at all.
The only time I was actually useful was while on TDY.
Any assertion that the military needs people in these specialties is not true. They had them, indeed have them, and I can pick up the phone right now, call the RSDNCO of my former unit, and ask what they will be doing on Monday. I am confident that the answer will be: "motor pool".
This is something that has been brewing since before the Kennedy Report, and it still pisses me off, especially in light of all the back-pedalling from the FBI and military that they "don't have the resources". They did have them. Due to mismanagement and fucked-up priorities (primarily the OER system), they couldn't keep them. My re-enlistment counseling with my commanding officer (whom I respected a great deal) was, "well I can offer you the Army nurse program, or physician's assistant, but unless you want to become an officer, you won't be able to transfer out of your MOS because it's short".
During my time in the military, I think about one in three linguists re-enlisted, always for choice of duty station. I cannot count the number of linguists that disappeared, that training wasted, because they spent four (or more) years doing nothing. If they left the military under good terms, they should have been actively pursued by the FBI or NSA so that training wouldn't have been wasted. But it wasn't a priority until 9/11. Then, all those three-letter agencies suddenly realized that they'd better come up with effective damage control fast, so they settled on: "we don't have the resources."
It's a lie.
Slashdot is my Mercer Box.
My point here is that the rationale that the US invaded Iraq for humanitarian reasons is demonstorably false. If the US government had cared about the plight of the victims of Hussein's government they wouldn't have given him all the money and technology they did. Since we have established that the US government gave him aid while it was aware of his behavior we can only conclude that there is a non-humanitarian reason for the invasion.
Don't misunderstand, one less evil bastard in the word is a good thing. But the US government continues to persue a policy of giving money and technology to similar evil bastards (the thugs in charge of Uzbekistan, for example). Thus the procolamations of concern for the Iraqi people can only be a rather revoltingly hypocritical smokescreen to try and hide their true motives.
Just *what* the true motives of the US government are I won't pretend to know, but I will say that its quite obvious that their stated motives are not what's really pushing policy. I suspect that the real motives are a mixture of economic desires (oil), military foreward planning (Iraq is centrally located, thus stragetically valuable), and distraction ("don't worry about the economy, there's a war on!"). That's merely what I suspect, but there can be no doubt that humanitarian reasons are not the cause for the war.
"Mission Accomplished" -- George W. Bush May 1, 2003
Yes, but this isn't a general draft. The conscripts will be coding, not fighting. You don't need to be particularly fit to do that ;)
And yes, what is next IS the general draft. They have already hired all the required personel for the local draft boards. Spent $28 million to get the draft ready to begin no later than June 15th, 2005. What's that? They need congressional approval? Read Bills S 89 and HR 163. They would have been in the news, but they had just caught Saddam so it never made the cut...
It's not the entire country, though. Just able bodied men and women between the ages of 18 and 26...unless they've change that range. And yes, it is co-ed now ;) And if you are a student, or a farmer...you arn't excluded this time. If you want a drivers licence, or if you attended public school, you are already registered. Although if they got your name, address, and phone number from your school, you had the opportunety for your parents to opt you out, but the schools are not required to inform you of that option, or even that they are giving your information to the government. If schools do not comply, they lose government funding.
And as for "for their entire life" no, just 30 years. You see, many of the troops, reserves, and National Guard in Iraq (est 43%) are not planning to reenlist. Unfortunatly, they have been "stop gapped" back into service anyways; many of them whose tours were supposed to end in 2003 or 2004 have found they NOW end in 2030. And yes, the war will still be going on in 2030. Bush himself has said he expects The War on Terror to drag on for several more decades at the minimum. I mean, they have only toppled 2 nations so far, and they still have Iran, Libya and Syria to topple, not to mention North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, and so on.
ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
Enough said. :)
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
2 years of military duty might teach our nations emerging adults a thing or two about self disipline, respect, hard work, and preparedness.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
1. Nice try. The 13th Amendment has been interpreted to specifically not include serving on juries or being drafted by the military for over 100 years. These are part of your duties as a citizen. Do a Google search on "13th Amendment" and "military."
2. Leave. Bye. See ya. Good riddance, coward.
Is it possible that this is a plot for the government to get cheap programmers without the appearance of the national security risk associated with outsourcing to a foreign country? Will those drafted be placed under the supervision of a "manager" who works for a major contractor?
Or is it a way for the government to phase drafts back in, in a way that most people won't care about?
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
I've got a family and a great job. Matter of fact, I just bought a house. I have no desire to leave these things I've worked for years to gain.
However--as I always say when a discussion of the draft comes up--I also realize that what has enabled me to acquire a family and a house and be able to drive down the street and buy a gallon of milk for $3.00 is the fact that there are people willing to fight for those things.
Yeah, I'm a computer person. I love computers. Computers are putting food on my table and a roof over my head. I don't want to leave if I don't have to.
But if it ever got so bad that I was drafted, well, yeah I'd go. I'd go and fight so that others can have the same things I've been so fortunate to get. Things like freedom and happiness and generally living in a (mostly) free country.
My sentiment is probably not popular in this day and age. But if they tell me to go, I'll go. I'm not making a run for the border.
Myrrh
Put your money where your mouth is and leave, if you're so pissed off. Perhaps there's a country somewhere that won't ask you to do a thing to contribute. Maybe.
I bet you don't vote, either. Nah, that'd be too much like "involuntary servitude," to go to the polls for all of a half an hour once a year, right?
You know, one of the things I love best about this country is that, although you are guaranteed the right to mouth off about how shitty you think the country is, I also have the right to tell you to shut the hell up or leave.
And I am right now.
I bet all of you who played the Army's "free game" will be sorry when this happens.
Like my comments? Try my podcast: http://www.baldmove.com
Since when has the draft stopped a war? The only thing the draft ensures is that politically unconnected people are forced to fight and die for causes supported for the politically connected, while their kids get cushy jobs in the Air National Guard, where no one cares if they show up or not.
The draft is slavery. I am a veteran, and I proudly volunteered. But if they were to show up claiming they had a right to my life and time - I'd go to jail first.
" And how, exactly, do they "force" you to excercise?"
You're a guy with no right and a sadistic drill sargeant whose job it is to make you lose those 100 pounds.
I suspect you wouldn't go to prison; you would be compelled to lose those pounds or die trying. Remember, the military has guns, they will smack you around, they will break you down and remold you.
And if you think you'll outsmart them, keep in mind that today's military training is a result of 1000's of years of human experimentation on how to make good soldiers.
You are a young boy who hasn't been able to wipe your ass for 20 years. I suspect thousands of years of experience gives them an edge in ways you're not capable of.
Look sonny, just lose the weight. It will be easier now than with a drill sargeant beating you down.
Thanks to the economic benefits of imperial war, you can soon return to the jobs that major US corporations regrettably had to ship overseas to boost their CEOs' and shareholders' profits. Those profits simply were not high enough after a decade of record earnings! Now that our economy is unable to provide jobs, we will create jobs by fighting for, er, freedom!
Outsourcing was a painful lesson; we understand. But with our exciting new insourcing, you'll be right back doing what you're used to - writing software, patching Microsoft technology, and answering basic user questions (but politely this time, or we'll have to mercilessly beat you, ha ha!). Heck, we'll even throw in room and board. Can Starbucks give you that?
Now, you're asking: O Mighty and Glorious Leader Bush, what do I have to do to make myself more deserving? At ease, citizen. Remember: the Enemy is everywhere, and he has no respect for frequent backups or the single-OS monopoly that is the foundation of our free society. Keep your shoes shined and your trap shut, and we'll be in touch when the time comes to fight for the CEOs!
There are 4 or 5 comments I wanted to drop these links into, I'll just stick them out here.
"We see the direct link between registration, the draft, and aggressive war."
"Committee Opposed to Militarism and the Draft"
"Help Oppose Hollins and Rangel's Draft!"
No I am not a Liberitarian, but they have some interesting points on this issue. I remember being freaked out about registering for the "SS" when I was 18. -Scared of being forced to fight somebody elses war if I did... and horrified of the things they said would happen if I did not (not qualifying for school loans being one of them).
I'm an Ada programmer; I'm the last person they'll want!
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Well, draftees ran them in previous wars, so what's the difference? You could make the same argument about draftees turning the keys together in the missile silos or performing open heart surgery. It's just how it works.
Maybe the opposite argument is more compelling: do you really want a bunch of volunteers who all think this is a really good idea running your operations? Isn't that like have a team trainer who has money on the game evaluating whether a player's health and career are at risk by going back in? Jimmy Carter thought it dubious; and that's why he (probably the most anti-war president in decades) reinstituted draft registration
I'd rather have press-ganged specialists who are experts and bring a professional set of ethics than a bunch of gung-hos who got their jobs because of a bureaucratic assignment after basic.
The PNAC agenda + our current military status = the draft.
Its like the lottery, except when you win you lose. Don't like it? Kick out Bush and his PNAC buddies.
"THIS IS MY DISTRO. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My distro is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I master 'Vice City'."
"And a voice was screaming: 'Holy Jesus! What are these goddamn animals?'" - HST
The simple fact remains: the US government supplied weapons, technology, and money, to Iraq during a period when it was known that Saddam Hussain was engaging in murder, rape, torture, etc. Donald Rumsfeld (currently Secretary of Defense) visited Iraq during this period, shook hands with Hussain (known at the time to be a vile dictator), offered help, etc. Whether other countries did worse is irrelivant. The actions of the Regan and Bush I administrations make it pathetically obvious that concern for human rights in Iraq is not the reason for the current war. The actions of the Bush II government in supporting and providing aid to the thugs in charge of Uzbekistan (among other places) demonstrate two things: 1) they haven't learned not to cozy up to dictators yet, and 2) human rights simply aren't a concern for them. This leads directly to the conclusion that there must be a non-human rights motive for the war. Nothing you wrote did anything to disprove this conclusion. Do try again though, I would be interested in anything that could prove my conclusion wrong.
I will also add that during the lead up to the current US/Iraq war several members of the Bush government, including President Bush himself, specificially excluded human rights violations as a justification for war. It is only now, after the fact, that the Bush government is claiming that human rights abuses were among their cuases for war.
I will also mention that this is not a partisin issue. The Clinton administration, and all administrations during the past 50 years, have made it policy to support dictators and surpress democracy. The actions of the US government are directly opposed to the values that make the US a great country. I am curious as to why you want to defend these anti-American people and their policies. Could you explain?
"Mission Accomplished" -- George W. Bush May 1, 2003
Nobody's twisting your arm _forcing_ you to be an American citizen, therefore the draft is voluntary.
Not everyone has the option to take up another citizenship. Some people are shit out of luck in that department. Though I think I would enjoy my time in prison for refusing a draft; that's the most honorable way out of a compulsary service requirement. No one can accuse you of joining the national guard to get out of a draft if you spend a few years in the hole for your country. There is simply no other way to emerge from a period of unjust war with your honor completely intact. You can try to repair it after serving in the military like Kerry did, but that's just window dressing. Every innocent man, woman and child your service killed will never come back. You have to refuse service and refuse taxes and do your jail time for it, until your country is out of the mess, if you want to be able to say you are a patriot without further dishonoring yourself with a lie.
Not that I'm much for nationalism these days, I would go 'hiking in Maine' long before my number came up.
For example, if you let all of your young college students go off and enlist, where exactly are you expecting to get your next generation of officer corp in the event the war is protracted? If you put rifles in the hands of engineers and others who are keeping your industrial machinery (which you need to prosecute the war) running how exactly are you going to continue to be able to fight?
Look at the experience of Britain in WWI. All of their young idealistic college students dropped out and enlisted. When the war dragged on they discovered they'd eaten the seed corn. They'd thrown their best human resources away as grunts on the front lines early in the war.
In World War II, we may well have needed enough soldiers that the free market couldn't provide them, but I can't see a draft in modern times as anything but a dodge for the military to avoid paying market rates for skilled workers by forcing them to work under threat of prison instead. Not to put too fine a point on it, but the draft is slavery, justifiable only under very limited circumstances that we're nowhere near right now---and politicans will ultimately make this decision on expediency rather than genuine need, as they do with everything else.
People bomb abortion clinics and kill those doctors. People grab an innocent man who was in a bar in Wyoming, beat him, tie him to a fence and leave him to die. These people are extremists, yet you seem to think that only people committing acts of terror under the guise of Islam are Extremists. I'm not standing up for them, but I'm sick and tired of racism being disguised as patriotism. In addition, I don't mean to insinuate that you are a racist. I just try to nip things like that in the bud whereever I see them. Just my beliefs, not to claim that mine are superiors to yours.
I just joined the Marine Corps. I leave in Sept. I am not scared of some draft.
I'd imagine not, considering that you are already in the military. There are those of us, balls notwithstanding, that have become accusomed to our current ways of life and would not like to be forced into military service. There are also those among us who again, balls notwithstanding, would simply prefer not to die.
I can not think of any people other than my own for whom I would risk death to secure freedom. Using volunteers for our charity work around the world is all well and good, but I think drafts shold be reserved for actual threats to the nation's security.
Too busy staying alive... ~ R.A.
will we need to have a certain level of experience before we can be drafted, or will it be anyone who is computer literate? Who decides this?
I used to be a computer worker until I got too sick to work and went on diability and became a college student. I am getting out of the computer industry and getting into business management. So if I switch careers can I still be drafted?
I used to work as a Federal Contractor for the US Army, so I delt with the government and military beore. I would be proud to serve my country, but my medical condition would prevent me from doing so. Also I am 35 years old, so what is the age limit here?
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
> There are those of us, balls notwithstanding,
> that have become accusomed to our current ways
> of life and would not like to be forced into
> military service. There are also those among us
> who again, balls notwithstanding, would simply
> prefer not to die.
There are two ways to look at it:
1 - Afraid to die/lose your current way of life
2 - Want to kill someone/change your current way of life
Most of the people who join the USMC fall into that second catagory. If their recruiter is even vaugely honest with them (which, I'll admit, is a streach for even the mildest mannered recruiter), they let prospective recruits know that, in the end, it's about killing the enemy dead either by pushing a button, pulling a trigger or by putting your fscking kbar through his heart.
Anyone who forgets that and still thinks military service is a good idea from them should probably join the peace corps and go off to get high with the natives in the next country that the USMC will be visiting shortly.
Personally, I'm with Robert Heinlein: No service, no vote.
You do realize of course that the Army just hires high priced marketing agencies to come up with campaigns that will be successful in increasing recruiting numbers and that these slogans don't have anything to do with training, doctrine or actual practices in the military, right? It's not like the training process has changed just because they have tried to make more fuzzy advertising that will appeal to today's 16-17 year old kids.
Amendment XIV
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
like i said any questions or questioning will be answered...swiftly. Abortion clinics are killing babies, no matter what way you look at it your taking two lives and making one. I in no way condone bombing or killing of doctors. Just the same I in NO WAY condone bombing of babies or stripping them from their mother's wombs (you can talk to me later on more controversial subjects such as rampage, but i think you should attack the problem not kill innocents).
Obviously you can go over and over again how the fringe of society attacking one person in a fit of rage. Usually they get harsher sentences than OJ Simpson did for mercilessly slaughtering two people in his own home. But these are separated subjects, in third world countries the masses are frenzied into terrorism by there local religions and frequently supported by the very figureheads that claim to be messengers of god.
If you want the facts straight; the average joe in American isn't running around killing 100's because he thinks their religion is perfect, instead tolerance has tempered that WAY down.. But when you see 100's or 1000's killed by one person you have to wonder if the system or even the beliefs are skewed.
I don't think it is the society itself but the people who control the religion, because frequently in these third world countries they are also the ones that lead the army, and have the money as well.....very bad connection if you ask me...if the pope as the richest man in Europe and controlled 3 world armies i think we would have a similar problem of misconstrued belief systems.
This makes clear that the "U.S. Plans Targeted Draft for Computer Personnel" headline is pure scaremongering. No one is about to get drafted. This is not "Tin soldiers and Nixon coming" for those of you trapped in the 1970s. This is deep, long-range contingency planning by a government agency that needs to look busy to keep their funding from being cut.
Too many people seem to be ignorant of the difference between "contingent" and "imminent." Just because, say, for example, FEMA updates its plans on recovering from a nuclear war DOESN'T MEAN we're planning to launch a nuclear war. Likewise, that whole "Pentagon plans for possibility of global climate change" had nothing to do with them planning for what they thought was going to happen, but everything to do with laying in contingency plans for what MIGHT happen, just like we had "rainbow" plans before World War II as to what we might have to do if involved in a global war against various enemies; just because we made plans for a global war against England, Russia and China (as well as Japan and Germany) didn't mean such an event was likely.
Will anyone here on Slashdot be called up? If, say, al Queda or North Korea nukes DC or Los Angeles, maybe. Otherwise all this talk is a bunch of blather from people who like to over-react anytime anyone in the Bush administration mentions the words "national security" and "computers" in the same sentence.
Lawrence Person (lawrencepersonh@gmailh.com (remove all "h"s to mail)
http://www.lawrenceperson.com/
So long as we understand "service" properly:
Never confuse serving the state with serving your country.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
Its their job to fight, and yours to vote. Their life can depend on your vote. ie: Take your vote more seriously than whether the candidate is pro-life.
So, are you willing to put your money where your mouth is? Are you willing to wager cold, hard cash that your paranoid liberal view of the world is rooted in fact rather than delusion? I've even given you four months longer than you're "sure" the draft will be reinstated. Or are you all just talk?
Lawrence Person (lawrencepersonh@gmailh.com (remove all "h"s to mail)
http://www.lawrenceperson.com/
" not any more immoral than removing a tumor or any other parasitic growth"
remember to tell your wife she was a parasitic growth up until she remembered her first mental images....remember to tell your son you meant nothing to him until he came out of the womb. And up until he cried he was basically a tumor. The only thing that most people dont understand is that abortion is all fine and dandy on paper, because most people think it happens early early in the game of baby+mother hood. We are not a secular society, a secular society would say no to feelings, beliefs, religion, and the individual. Unfortunatly most people still don't understand that our forefathers weren't secular but infact the people that populated this country had MANY religions all of which did not support abortion.
quote me on this: "the day that you decide to put your life into the hands of people that want to kill you, then you can mandate wether or not a tumorus baby or parasitic wife lives or dies."
Besides this being a far cry from the original post, i still reitterate my original post, i believe that the draft is nothing to run from.
2,000,000 served
500,000 evaded the draft
100,000 deserted
34,000 were court-martialled and imprisoned
I'm currently in the Army Reserves and write software on the civilian side. For the past 8 years I've been trying to find a way to help out the Army Reserves with my computer skills - and from my perspective there are lots of others just like me.... problem is, the Army doesn't know what to do with us. Sure, they have set up special 'Information Operations' units filled with talented people... but most of these people waste their time ordering computers, installing microsoft 2000 on them, and upgrading patches.... not to mention filling out paperwork and stacking boxes... its a complete waste of time. And these are smart people who really want to help out with their skills. I would prefer seeing the military make a plan for how to USE the technology specialists they have before drafting up a plan to pluck people out of their civilian life.