Slashdot Mirror
Trusted Computing Rollout Hits the Desktop
Alsee writes "Previously appearing in a few rare laptops, ExtremeTech reports on the first major computer manufacturer making a full scale Trusted Computing rollout. Samsung will now install the Phoenix Core Managed Environment (cME) BIOS in every computer they make. Previous Slashdot reports on this BIOS include Phoenix Bios to Incorporate DRM and Microsoft Taking Over the BIOS."
The problem with most "trusted computing" proposals so far is that "trusted" is an accurate description of them. It's just an imcomplete description. They aren't about insuring that you, the owner of the computer, can trust the computer or the software on it. They're about insuring that third parties (such as Microsoft, HP, etc.) can trust your computer to do what they tell it to do. The proponents omit that part because they know all too well that if they did say all of what they meant that the average consumer would scream bloody murder and refuse to have anything to do with it.
CMDRTACO CHECK YOUR EMAIL!
So this is the dawn of the Unpersonal Computer? One that hides things from it's users and gives control to other people.
Screw that idea!
And seriously, cost of the media? How much could this possibly cost (even if the partition is only the size of a CDROM; 700MB or less)?
It will never work until program encapsulation is implemented in the ISA. These silly software switches will be easily circumvented.
Repeal the DMCA!
That way an informed consumer can make a choice whether or not they want DRM on their system.
It won't matter much, because most people don't care either way. Worse yet, the salesman simply tells the customer that the feature will "enable access to new media formats" and the sucker takes the bait.
Save your wrists today - switch to Dvorak
What really worries me is the unannounced DRM / Trusted Computing BIOS boards that will be coming out. Since this is an anti-consumer feature, and the BIOS companies know it, they don't want to impede their rollout with a consumer backlash.
I recall something about one of the Phoenix guys saying that the consumer was not their customer, the media companies were. DRM put directly into the BIOS, with no option to get a motherboard without it is going to be a real issue. Reminds me of when all the local banks in my area added thumbprint for check cashing on the same day. You couldn't bring your business elsewhere because they all did it.
So wants to start up a BIOS company?
OK guys, I think the time is come to buy one last decent computer before this whole TPC-NGSCB-hell breaks loose...
What a fucking joke that is!!
Your hard drive gets screwed (hardware failure, for exmaple), so you can't re-install on a new disk because you don't have the installation media?
And I suppose it also has the "feature" that it'll automatically "fix" any "corrupt" (Linux/BSD) partitions it discovers on bootup?
What a stupid, usless waste of hard drive space to save on the price of an install DVD. This just smacks of taking choices away from the user (other than the choice to boycott this kind of shit completely).
Organic free-range music... yum!
(Assuming you buy a Dell or other one that won't ship without an OS on it..."
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Wouldn't this take up quite a hefty chunk of hard drive space?
No doubt it will be compressed so I'd expect it to be about 1.5GB for a typical consumer PC preinstalled with windows XP, DVD player, burner software etc. They will still describe it as having an 80GB disk,. not 75GB free space. Manufacturers are happy to save a few dollars by slowing down PC's with software modems and sound synthesis done in software so I doubt they will balk at this oportunity.
...and consumers will buy it because it's a "feature". This wonderful new "trusted computing" will give you access to all sorts of places, simply because we're not going to offer access to anyone else. See?
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
When you and everyone else stops patronizing organizations that produce such hardware in favor of open alternatives. Supporting OSS is fine, but something needs to be said for supporting the same ideals in the hardware domain.
Case in point : DIVX.
It wouldn't hurt for slashdotters to educate people when the chance comes up. To be effective, try to be informed, not shrill.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Plus if your virii/worms can't touch that other partition, you have a "trusted" way to work on restoring your system in the case something bad happens without having to do the fdisk/format/reinstall sequence.
Oh come on - how long will it take someone to find a way to circumvent that? A month? Less? Going on M$'s past record, my bet is on the latter.
The fact is that it's never going to be as safe as a read only CD / DVD with the install files on it.
Organic free-range music... yum!
It is not the question of what YOU can do with you computer. It is a question what OTHERS can do with your computer. You (and I mean it in general sense) do not need this feature to operate your computer.
But people will start to care once stories start coming out of people not being able to run their software that they "brought home from work".
You'll then start to see people actively looking for PC's that don't have DRM enabled.
I was gonna buy a Samsung monitor, DVD drive and floppy drive. Now i'll be getting a Phillips, Lite-On and oem brand. Let them know with your wallets people.
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
Let me put it this way.
Right now, you have control over your computer. You control what gets installed, what can run, and what you do with your data.
This means that you can no longer do any of that except insofar as whoever DOES have control of your computer sees fit to allow you to. In other words, you no longer own or control your data.
Let's just hope that the BIOS dosen't require the bootstrap code to be digitally signed or something.
BIOS ERROR: Unsigned bootloader (LILO) detected on Primary Master drive.
Most likely nothing, the catch being "yet". It's just that it sets up the infrastructure for DRM enabled software. If you do a little reading on DRM you'll then see that it's just a matter of the key server flipping a bit and you're prevented from doing something (could be play an MP3, run a piece of software, etc) at the mercy of thos that control the key server. The point the anti-DRM squad are trying to make is that they can't shoot you if you don't provide them the gun to shoot you with in the first place.
ever use one of these machines at home. Flat out I don't agree with it. It would be the equivilent of car makers telling me what I could do with my engine, or what kind of tires I could put on it. Then enforing that by saying if I don't my car won't run.
I don't think that the majority of business will look at this situation and care, and even *IF* consumers reject it, I think that we will see it in the work place is some form at some point, however we didn't *really* have control over our workstations anyway. If my company chooses to give control of my workstation to Microsoft (or anyone else), I guess that is their choice.
However one of these machines has no place in my home. I thinks its a bad idea, but I'm not sure that people will see it (buisness minds anyway) until its too late.
-Adam C. Greenfield
But how will you bank online, when your bank stops supporting non-TCPA clients in the intrest security?
After that, it's not a great leap to see the credit card companies only issue merchant accounts to those online retailers who similarly require the client to use TCPA.
At least in the UK, online government servies are in their infancy. A few well-placed bribes by a certain software company later, and suddenly I will only be able to access government services from a TCPA-compliant terminal...
You'll then start to see people actively looking for PC's that don't have DRM enabled.
And shortly after that you'll find that PCs that don't have DRM enabled aren't available unless you're a government agency or a corporation on contract to one.
Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
is great and all but without a massive movement that information doesn't always flow upstream very quickly. In other words speak with your wallet and with your voice. Email is still free (mostly) so everytime your specifically purchase a non-DRM product over theirs write and tell them! Let them know how much $$$ they're losing on a sale-to-sale basis. Companies live and die by numbers and having another level of data tells them even more forcefully that, yes a boycott is in progress, and they're actively losing our money.
-- I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist. It's not my fault that life sucks so much. --
Hey all,
While it's easy for us geeks to be upset by this, do you think that it's just the media companies that want this sort of thing?
For instance, Lotus Notes (used by corporations "serviced" by IBM the world around) has a nifty feature whereby should a sender wish, they can block access to many client features like, oh, printing or forwarding. Making an unpopular/possibly illegal move with your company? Do it by e-mail! No whistleblowers (save the truly geekiest that can get around this sort of thing) will bother you. Being subpoenaed by the FBI (like Microsoft has been over and over and over again via e-mails)? Have your trusty computer eat it! Simple!
The geeks, for our part, must take a stand and make sure people who buy this equipment are appropriately punished for it. This includes our friends and family -- if they buy something containing this sort of embedded DRM, refuse to help them with anything and everything regarding the cursed device. Assuming you'll be able to get around the DRM and help them to begin with...
Bah. Paranoia sucks.
C
The Sun is proof that we can't even do fire properly.
DRM becomes prevalent, and Gator learns how to use the DRM features to make itself uninstallable. And every GD spamzombie worm soon follows.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Really, I think the first customer of these Samsungs is going to be some giant corporation that will pick up a pile of these and deploy them all over. Perhaps the Attorney General's office in California will grab some. :P
Companies like Verisign, Network Solutions, and Microsoft have shown that those who are supposed to be trusted, can't and shouldn't.
How is 'Trustworthy Computing' supposed to work when you can't trust the providers of the technology?
Think of the software lock-in and stranglehold that licenses are going to have on these machines - or the uselessness of a boat anchor when it gets hacked by a virus that will be allowed to run on it during its rollout period, or when it gets hacked.
Ugh. Keep your old machines, geeks! (Sorry, wives and girlfriends...)
It's not the volts that kill you, it's the amps.
With DRM infected appliances, the latter is locked out of their own machines to a certain extent. You'll no longer have the ability to solve your own problems but have to rely on the magical mystery software that comes with the computer.
The distinction will probably be slight at first, but I think it's hardly appropriate to call a DRM infected machine a "computer", since there will be technology in place to prevent the owner from doing certain general purpose computations. DRM infected machines will be entertainment/office appliances and horribly undesirable to people interested in their computers.
or you can just get a mac and be happy with open firmware :)
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace
Banks, like every other business, do a trade-off between revenues, profits, and costs. As long as they can make a profit, they will support non-TCPA clients.
People are saying that these computers are likely to be hacked very quickly.
I agree.
I also predict the reaction of the companies will be to
(1) make it even *more* draconian.
(2) Whine that the entire computer industry as we know it will be destroyed (and the terrorists will win!) unless Congress enacts laws that will make it illegal to break into "Trusted" computers which given the way Congress usually drafts laws will probably be so vague and broad that merely open the case of any computer (w/o a government sanctioned license) will count as infringement worthy of 5 years jail. (Maybe we should call this the Patriot Computing Act?) And if they are really good, enact laws force everyone to upgrade to Trusted computing within say 5 years or else via legislating that within 5 years every new computer sold in the US has to be a "Trusted" computer.
Remember, in the field of "intellectual property" and anything associated with "computers" or "digital" or "internet", if something fails, it's not because it's a technological impossibility, your business model is failing or your customers plain don't want it or even hate it. It's because you just haven't made it draconian enough, your customers are your enemies who need to be punished and made to toe the line and you need draconian broad-based legislation otherwise the economy will collapse, WWIII will happen and of course, the terrorists will win.
The question should be :
:
How long before this BIOS is hacked...
And, more precisely, hacked and shipped whithout the extensions, or even funnnier,a modified bios with specialised settings to fry the mobo/cpu/Security chip....
Bios viruses existed at one time, when bioses where few... Having everyone using the same secure bios from one vendor (phoenix) could bring some interesting results in the long term...
+ On the side, I seem to remember that some chips makers use "windows only" application to upgrade the firmware of hardware, and that some others try to get the same thing to update the bios from within the Windows OS...
Knowing the high level of security provided by windows, the next betting question
how long before the first worm designed for modifying the "secure bios" on a worldwide basis (install the virus, if it install from windows do it now, if needing out of Windows execution, mark the bios modifier to launch at next windows startup, using a sort of dos mode and a blank and/or fake "microsoft testing HDD" screen , or defeating the "trusted computing" security thingy by wiping out all the partitions on disks including the hidden ones...
This idea patented, if you do it, I'll reclaim a large sum to be taken from the "Wanted!" announce made for your head by Microsoft... 8p
It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
Oh that's great. Let's limit freedom in exchange for perceived security? Anytime you talk about placing a restriction on freedom, you should default to "No" and be convinced otherwise. I don't think regulation is the answer. Nor, however, do I think Trusted Computing is the answer either. I think some ISP's have a decent approach. If your home PC is a security risk, I'll notify you to either fix it or lose your access to the 'Net. Once off the 'Net, I have the right to have a buggy, virus-ridden PC if I so choose...or just do 'cuz I'm stupid. In the long run, the answer is education. Knowledge is ultimately the key. People must take it upon themselves to learn more about PC's and computing in general. Requiring some sort of license or permit is just not the anwswer for the US.
Go with apple and full vendor lock in. I'm replying here since this is the top comment I could find saying this. How is apple the solution?
The penchant around here for apple is proof to me that more linux geeks are interested in being a part of an 'exclusive' minority than in being involved in things that are open and free (as in speach).
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
Speaking with your wallet is great and all but without a massive movement that information doesn't always flow upstream very quickly. In other words speak with your wallet and with your voice. Email is still free (mostly) so everytime your specifically purchase a non-DRM product over theirs write and tell them! Let them know how much $$$ they're losing on a sale-to-sale basis.
Excellent point, but it does not go far enough.
Each time you make such a purchase, tell NOT ONLY the DRM manufacturer why they lost a sale, be sure to also tell the DRM-Free manufacturer that you bought their product specifically because you value consumer rights and resent their competitors. In other words, give positive feedback to the people who are doing the right thing as well...lest they be befuddled by the likes of Microsoft as well.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Why would you want to install Linux instead of OS X on a mac?
/far/ more stable?
Hrm, how about in the case of my G3 iBook it's less resource hungry, faster, and
Quack, quack.
But your PC will - and Apple, by actions they have taken, have shown they are interested in the user having control over the computer. Audio DRM that lets you burn as often as you like, and makes the files your own. Use of Open Firmware and other open technologies (like Darwin or BSD). Lack of product activation on any Apple software.
As we all know "trusted" computing is eaxctly about not trusting the users. Apple trusts the users, and therefore has no reason to deploy a "trusted" platform (which also adds cost, a double whammy).
Basically, Apple is your last large commercial hope. If you want to stop stuff like trusted computing, then head over and support the vendor who is at least trying to head the other way, instead of joining the crowd headed down the path you don't like.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Yes they are. The timeframe might be long, but as someone else noticed insightfully on this thread, the DRM technologies are a slippery slope of small increments leading to the demise of Personal Computer to be replaced by Personal Computing/Enterntainment Appliance. The people who wish it to be so are wealthy, powerful and prepared for a long-haul battle since profits and control that could be gained by forcing everyone to use DRM are truly immense.
but this could be the end for OSS. its obvious that its microsofts intention to force its operating system upon us all. if they can trick apple into licensing the gui code off them all those years ago, they can convice the courts (if they even get there) that they're doing it to protect us all.
bastard bush administration. they should have followed the anti-trust lawsuit that was started by the clinton administration.
I'm betting no more than four weeks. Two months at the outside.
Does not matter how long it takes. Companies who may implement DRM know there is an inconvenience factor involved. How many times will the average public patch/hack/config something to make it work outside the "law"? My guess is the die-hard geeks will do it as much as it takes but johnny-lunchbox is going to get pretty tired real quick. This has to do with America's lazy attitude toward everything. It has to work right now and without any thought on the users' part.
And how do you propose to load it onto one of these restricted beasts... It will need to be keysigned, and duplicating that is a crime.
Oh, and what about all that esoteric proprietary hardware? ( especially in laptops, but this point holds true for future appliance based PC's ) Who is going to write bios routines for those, with out any documentation?
Its a grand idea, but i dont think it will work out in practice, when it counts and we really need alternatives...
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Free as in freedom matters to some of us. As well as the lack of backdoors and "phone home" tomfoolery.
A corrolary to this, and one we should remember, is that venerable quip "If voting could change anything, it would be illegal." IOW, watch your back.
No matter how many of my rights are taken away, somehow I still don't feel safe. -Frigid Monkey
For that matter, why not just bypass the BIOS entirely?
Forgive me if these are stupid questions -- I'm unfamiliar with how this new tech is supposed to work. How does it prevent me from doing either of the above?
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
There are hardware keyloggers out there you know.
Also, get some new friends, man...
"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."