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San Diego Diebold Poll Worker's Report Posted

James Renken writes "I was a poll worker in San Diego for this year's primary election. It was the county's first using Diebold voting machines, and as you may have heard, we ran into some problems! My full report of the goings-on can be found at Live from the Nuke Free Zone. Enjoy!"

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  1. just in case - full text by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Uncle Diebold's Clubhouse

    On March 2nd, I was a poll worker for this year's California primary election. More specifically, I was a Systems Inspector in San Diego county, whose problems with voting machines and procedures received some coverage in the national media.

    First, a summary of my personal opinion: I think that current electronic voting systems are better than the traditional systems in terms of security, and also in terms of usability for most people. However, I share the opinion of many bloggers that major security issues remain in the new machines and implementations, and that these issues should already have been fixed.

    More details below...

    This was San Diego's first election using electronic voting machines - specifically, Diebold AccuVote-TSx stations. Previous elections in the county used punch cards. The county failed to make the mandated upgrade prior to the last election, and a federal court ordered that it be done for this primary.

    Previously, precinct boards in the county were made up of an Inspector, an Assistant Inspector, and clerks. As of this election, a Systems Inspector and an Assistant Systems Inspector have been added at each precinct. According to the Registrar of Voters, this is because a four-hour training session would have been required in order for Inspectors to learn both the general procedures and how to operate the machines. Instead, most of the technical details are left to the Systems Inspectors.

    I was contacted and assigned as a Standby Systems Inspector, meaning that if necessary, I would stand in for a missing Systems Inspector or Assistant Systems Inspector in my part of the county. The standby system is apparently not used very much; they forgot to handle some details, like sending me a copy of the poll worker's manual, or notifying me that the location for the mandatory training had changed. Fortunately, I'm fairly resourceful, and the classes were running late anyway.

    In the class, we were introduced to how the system works. Along with the usual paperwork and supplies, each precinct has:

    * A Precinct Control Model (PCM).
    * A number of voting stations (either four, six, or eight).
    * Two Voter Access Cards (VACs) per station, plus one or two extras.
    * Two Supervisor Cards.

    A poll worker (usually the Systems Inspector) sits in front of the PCM. One poll worker has each voter sign the roster, while another checks the voter's address on another list. That second worker points to the appropriate line on the address list, and the PCM operator sees which party to program a ballot for - with the party name never said aloud.

    The PCM operator then selects the party on the PCM's touchscreen, and inserts any one of the Voter Access Cards (VACs) for programming. The VAC is then given to the voter, who inserts the VAC into any one of the stations, and is then presented with the ballot for their party. After casting their ballot, the voter's VAC is ejected, and the voter is instructed to give it back to the poll staff. The VAC itself is not a ballot at all - it just authorizes a voting station to bring one up, and tells it which party's ballot to display. After a ballot has been cast using a VAC, it must be reprogrammed on the PCM prior to being used again.

    We were warned that some voters might try to cheat by claiming that they received the wrong party's ballot. We were advised that, should this happen, we should insert the card in a station to make sure that it had not been used to cast a ballot already; then, add one to the tally sheet of programmed but uncast ballots, and reprogram the VAC after checking the voter's registered party on the street address list.

    That was about it. We were shown the startup and shutdown procedures for the machines, and cast a few sample ballots with them. The regular poll workers were noted on a list, and some paperwork or other was handled. I asked about getting ahold of a poll worker's manual, and was promptly given one from a large box that was sit

    1. Re:just in case - full text by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      You Are Being Flamed Because

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      [ ] YOU POSTED A MESSAGE ALL WRITTEN IN CAPS
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      [ ] All of the above

    2. Re:just in case - full text by Wellmont · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "That second worker points to the appropriate line on the address list, and the PCM operator sees which party to program a ballot for - with the party name never said aloud."

      - that's funny the poll workers at the National Guard Armory in El Cajon made it a point to spit my party name "Republican" or as she said "REP!" across the table to another woman who entered that into her workstation.

      The two ladies acted like it was insulting to their mouths to have to pass the word through it...launching it with a weighted hatred.

  2. Recount? by MooseByte · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "I think that current electronic voting systems are better than the traditional systems in terms of security, and also in terms of usability for most people."

    But how are those Diebold machines at allowing a recount? Do they finally create a paper trail, or is it still "faith-based voting"?

    1. Re:Recount? by dealsites · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think that the electronic "trail" is good enough to hide the shady buisness that politics incurs.

      --
      Slashdotted today already, can I survive another?

    2. Re:Recount? by LostCluster · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There's no recount possible. If you doubt the number's they're outputting, there's no way to challenge the number for validity.

      No hanging chad problems... but no pieces of paper at all to count wasn't the solution we were looking for.

    3. Re:Recount? by EndlessNameless · · Score: 2, Informative

      RTFA... the machine prints a paper ballot after each voter completes the process. So unless the machines are systematically compromised there shouldn't be an issue.

      Physically compromising the paper storage area presents the same risk as traditional ballots, so the risk presently by the undoubtedly insecure Diebold implementation is the only real concern. Of course, if the machines aren't accessible by any remote hosts, then bit-by-bit or hash verification of the drives before and after voting should provide some degree of safety against tampering that would generate false paper ballots (assuming as always that the master itself is unaltered in the case of bit-for-bit checking).

      --

      ---
      According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
    4. Re:Recount? by Slayk · · Score: 2, Troll

      Prints out a paper ballot, eh?

      Makes be wonder about the quality of ink used, as I've seen some of the cheap stuff my university uses degrade to illegibility in about three months. Election disputes certainly can draw on for quite a while, and thus raises a red flag with me. Can't recount the votes if you can't see what's on the paper.

    5. Re:Recount? by metallicagoaltender · · Score: 4, Informative

      RTFA yourself - I live in San Diego and we didn't have any printer or any paper trail. I know the machines are capable of it, and the State of CA had mandated it by 2006, but we did not have them for this election.

    6. Re:Recount? by SedentaryZ · · Score: 4, Informative

      I think you're mistaken. These machines have an enclosed printer that prints a total at the end of the day. The voter is not given a paper receipt. Diebold is in fact complaining that many legislatures are starting to amend laws calling for electronic voting to mandate a certifiable paper audit trail.

    7. Re:Recount? by whoever57 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      RTFA... the machine prints a paper ballot after each voter completes the process. So unless the machines are systematically compromised there shouldn't be an issue.

      But isn't a systematic compromise the main concern? How do you know that the code has not been written to detect a real ballot day (by dates, or the number of votes cast) and then alter both the electronic and paper count?

      The point is that the count cannot be certified because there are steps in the process that are resistent to certification.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    8. Re:Recount? by k_head · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Unless the machine is actually printing out a receipt for each and every vote that the voter can look at and confirm then the process is suspect.

      Many things can go wrong. For example.

      1) The machines could be programmed to favor one party or another. No matter who the voter selects the machine one out of a thousand times switches the vote. If only one out of a thousand voters notice the discrepency the party gains power and grants more govt contracts to diebold.

      2) the machines could skew the results enough to beat the margin for a recount. If the politician A wins by more then 5% then no recount will be triggered and nobody is wiser for it.

      As long as commercial companies are making these machines and as long as those companies are allowed to lobby and bribe politicians the process is suspect. The software should be open source period. The machines should be imaged at secure locations under tight surveillance and should be accounted for 100% of the time they are in use.

      elections are too important to trust to corporations with political agendas. The profit motive is just too great not the mess with things.

      --
      The best way to support the US war effort is to continue buying American products.
    9. Re:Recount? by Rimbo · · Score: 3, Informative

      There were flash cards moved around, but no paper.

      I voted in the SD election as well, and in fact, I was one of the people who asked for a paper receipt. It was denied.

      There is a printer, but it's used only to print a tally of votes received at that machine. Nothing says that the data can't get corrupted before it gets there.

  3. Re:Election by LostCluster · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Wouldn't the loser be more likely to complain?

  4. Security by Confusion? by LostCluster · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It seems like these Diebold systems have all sorts of features like smart cards and locks that make them look secure, but when you actually kick the tires you realize things are not as secure as they should be.

    We'd be much better off with a system that produces prints a human readable and machine readable piece of paper, and then put those pieces of paper into a ballot box. At least, when the security of a box in plain sight gets compromised we know that something happened... the worst case here is swearing in a losing candidate.

    1. Re:Security by Confusion? by R33MSpec · · Score: 5, Funny

      "...the worst case here is swearing in a losing candidate..."

      George W. just called and wants to meet with you to discuss your idea.

    2. Re:Security by Confusion? by orthogonal · · Score: 4, Informative

      t seems like these Diebold systems have all sorts of features like smart cards and locks that make them look secure, but when you actually kick the tires you realize things are not as secure as they should be.

      Seems like Diebold's Automatic Teller Machines (ATMs) are no more secure. Until I'd clicked that link, I'd never seen the Windows Media Player playing on an ATM.

      This crap is supposed to save us from another Florida chad-count? Or have we just decided that democracy isn't really important enought to make secure?

    3. Re:Security by Confusion? by sumdumass · · Score: 2, Informative

      kinda looks like it has an "official feature" to microsofts product too. the unknown windows in the one picture is probally a worm logging all the pin numbers and acount information.

      I wonder if there is actually anything that would stop an atm like this from getting a virus? i didn't see a scanner running in the taskbar.

      frightning if you think about it.

    4. Re:Security by Confusion? by ScarKnee · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That was a funny comment, but do remember that in all the recounts that occurred in Florida AFTER the whole bru-haha, Dubya still came out ahead. He won the electoral vote and lost (very narrowly) the popular vote. The framers of the constitution intended the vote for President to be decided in this manner (hanging chads notwithstanding) to prevent the most-populous areas from completely controlling the vote. In a purely popular vote states like Idaho, Wyoming, Alaska, Utah, and other low-population states would have very little say in the election of a president. I personally believe the electoral college is the better way. Those who wish for a strictly popular vote do so because they know they (generally liberally-minded folks) can get elected by promising to hand out more doles (or claim their opponent will take away or severely cut their hand-out) to those already dependent upon the gov't for handouts (welfare, social security, etc.) - most of those dependents live in highly populated areas.

      Anyway, we should keep it the way it is. We should also go back to allowing the State Legislatures elect members of the Senate instead of the people directly. Too many people in Washington, D.C. depend on polls of the people to determine if they should breathe, go to the bathroom, like vanilla/chocolate ice cream, etc...

      G'day

    5. Re:Security by Confusion? by ScarKnee · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "BTW if you think state politicians don't look at polls you need to put your crack pipe down. The only difference between your state legilator and your senator is that your legilator is cheaper to buy."

      My point is, the Senate was originally intended to represent the State's interests, not the people within the state - at least not directly. The way things are now we may as well have just a Congress or just a Senate; they are both elected in the same manner. Both sides only want to *please* their constituents when voting time is near and then go back to catering to their lobby-of-choice when no one's looking. I know that going back to having the States elect the senators wouldn't solve everything, but I believe it'd have the potential to cut down on the all the polling for people's opinions by the Senate. The people would still have a say in the electing of Senators by electing their state legislators. The States need to have their say in the way the Federal Government is run because they are losing many rights to the Feds and we the people need things to be more localized... education, police, etc. Let the Feds help with roads, Social Security, military, etc.

      Bye

    6. Re:Security by Confusion? by gujo-odori · · Score: 3, Informative

      I used to work in mainframe operations at a bank in the 1980s and my opinion of the Diebold ATMs of the day were that they were the skankiest, poorest-designed, and just general pieces of crap. If you want to see decent ATM, you have to go to Japan. Their ATMs from 10 years ago are worlds better than the ones we have now. For years, Japanese ATMs have accepted loose coin and loose bills. Just put the coins and bills into the bill and coin hoppers, and they will be accurately counted and deposited to your account. I never saw a Japanese ATM make a mistake, but if it does, you can make it count the money again. And, from an ATM at just about any bank or post office, you can do a wire transfer to any other bank account in the country for a small fee. Of course, they ATMs all speak and have Braille keypads as well.

      Knowing that the same company that produced those abominable Diebold ATMs is now making our voting machines is pretty scary.

    7. Re:Security by Confusion? by k_head · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The real problems are constitutional.

      Here are the core problems built into the constituion. Things can not get better till they are changed.

      1) The idea that artifical geographical boundries matter. There is no reason my voting choices should be limited by where I live. Whether it's the state or the neigborhood where I live should have no bearing on who I am allowed to vote on.

      2) winner take all elections. It's not fair that a person who wins 50.01% of the vote gets to shit on half the population that did not vote for him. The politicians do shit on people who don't vote for them.

      3) Lack of a parlimenterian type of representation. Third parites just don't stand a chance and it's not fair to people who don't agree with the parties.

      The answer is simple but requires a constitional amendment so it will never happen.

      1) anybody who gathers X amount of votes from a nationwide election gets a seat at the parliment. You can fiddle with the number X to taste. If you think one representitive per million people is Ok then settle on that. If you think that's too diffuse drop the number to 100,000.

      2) All legislation must pass by a 2/3rd Majority of the parliment.

      3) Who the fuck needs a president anyway. That's just a relic from the monarchy days.

      Voila, problem solved.

      Let's say you went with the 100,000 number (I think even that's too high but let's stick with that for now). That means there would be 3000 representitives. In order to get a law passed you'd need 2000 votes.

      So if a corporation wanted a particular law passed they would have to bribe 2000 politicians!!. I am not saying that they could not but let's make it expensive for them for gods sake.

      Each politician only has to answer to 100K people which means all voices have a chance of being heard. Only if there is massive concensus however do the laws get passed.

      It would be an awsome system.

      --
      The best way to support the US war effort is to continue buying American products.
    8. Re:Security by Confusion? by Ironica · · Score: 2, Insightful

      1) The idea that artifical geographical boundries matter. There is no reason my voting choices should be limited by where I live. Whether it's the state or the neigborhood where I live should have no bearing on who I am allowed to vote on.

      Artificial geographical boundaries are still our best approximation of representation. Gerrymandering laws recognize that minority voting blocks can be either held together or split apart when drawing the lines, and splitting them up is in many cases illegal. People still tend to gather geographically according to demographic characteristics which usually affect their representation choices.

      So how do you propose to have a representative democracy without using geographical boundaries?

      --
      Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
    9. Re:Security by Confusion? by zangdesign · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Whether it's the state or the neigborhood where I live should have no bearing on who I am allowed to vote on.

      Many problems that voter face are somewhat geographic in nature, though. There's no way you can maintain the argument that problems in East Texas can be adequately represented by someone living in Northern California, or even West Texas. Not to mention which, geographic representation allows the representative to (theoretically) maintain a perspective on those problems.

      It's not fair that a person who wins 50.01% of the vote gets to shit on half the population

      That's a problem of human nature. It's not necessarily right, but it's also not something that can be easily solved until you get people into office who actually care about those they represent. The system is built to attract a certain type of person drawn to power. Perhaps, instead of drafting people into the military, we should draft them into public representation instead.

      Third parites just don't stand a chance

      Not entirely true. There is some representation by third parties at state levels. The third party voters are pretty scattered throughout the US and do not form a concentrated voting bloc in any one area.

      Who the fuck needs a president anyway

      Well, the Constitution calls for it, so unless you change the Constitution, we're stuck with it. Not to mention which, having a President allows us to have a single representative of the entire nation to deal with other nations, when it is really necessary. Most of the time, the job seems redundant or unnecessary, since most of the contact is handled through lower level representatives, but on occasion, someone has to make the hard decision and do it in a decisive way.

      Just because you don't like the one we've got (and believe me, I wouldn't pee on him if he was on fire, in the figurative AND literal sense), doesn't mean the Office is not necessary on occasion.

      --
      To celebrate the occasion of my 1000th post, I will post no more forever on Slashdot. Goodbye.
    10. Re:Security by Confusion? by Dnigh · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Thats not bad, though I have yet to see at atm with a decent sound card.

      We have quakeII running on an NCR atm here in the office... that gets some odd looks when people walk into the office, and see gibs flying everywhere. We have laughed at the idea of using it for the idle loop screens (adverts normally), but haven't found a customer who thinks its a good idea.

      Having spent way to much time working on Diebolds earlier atm products (yes I still write software for the Diebold 912 protocol), I am scared at anything they put out. Personally, i will keep voting with a paper and pencil.

    11. Re:Security by Confusion? by HRH+King+Lerxst · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So basically you're saying that the people in the 5-10 largest urban areas will decide for everybody because that's where the majority lives.

      The constitution was built to provide for protection of the minority, and not rule by the majority. (e.g. the Senate). Similarly, the POTUS is elected by the people in each State, not the people of the U.S.as a whole. This serves to protect the interest of each state, and prevent tyrany of the majority.

      --
      No one got beat up more often than the mimes of the old west!
    12. Re:Security by Confusion? by aukaru · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Who the fuck needs a president anyway. That's just a relic from the monarchy days

      The president as head of government/state is very usefull. Beyond being the single point of contact for foreign governments, the president has coordination and control authority over the executive departments. Imagine Rumsfeld without a leash (however long the current one appears to be).

      The alternative is to place the executive under Congress, but then you lose the separation of powers. Might as well abolish the judiciary while you're at it and make it all one branch. Well, with Republicans in control of Congress what would you have to worry about? "The Republican party is the only legal party and yes that is constitutional because we said so!"

    13. Re:Security by Confusion? by iwadasn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That system would suck, here's why.....

      1) everyone lives in the city. Country folk are already screwed regularly. If there was no need to even consider them, then they would be wholly marginalized. The current system of districts ensures that they at least have senators, even if the representatives are all owned by the cities. 80% of the US population is urban. Same thing goes for other groups. This prevents tyrrany of the majority.

      2) Multiple parties cause a strange kindo of gridlock, in particular, spoiler parties can cause horrible damage. Look at what the green party did to the Dems in the last election, and what they're going to do again in November. Anyone who says that nader voters are half republicans didn't notice the huge drop in Kerry poll numbers when nader entered the race. Two parties does just fine, no issue loses out just because it is supported by multiple parties.

      3) Though our current president is a joke, that is n't always the case. It's nice to have one person responsible for virtually any grievance you may have, someone who can't say "that's not my problem, that's because of ...." The president has enough power that he's expected to be responsible for the general state of the country, but not enough (historically, before GW tried to be Caesar) to really screw us.

      4) Winner take all elections are needed for president, just that simple. Congress is almost always so evenly divided that a winner take all election doesn't really matter.

      5) There is no such thing as a fair election. This is mathematically proven to be the case. There is no optimal electoral system, the electoral college and winner take all elections we have are as good as any other. They come close to being optimal in the case of only two parties, and are far better with two parties than parlimentary style are with many parties.

      Basically, what I'm trying to say is that you don't know what you're talking about.

    14. Re:Security by Confusion? by gripdamage · · Score: 3, Informative

      That was a funny comment, but do remember that in all the recounts that occurred in Florida AFTER the whole bru-haha, Dubya still came out ahead.

      To say Bush won every media recount (those are the recounts that happened after the election) is a distortion. The truth is Bush won every recount using only undervotes (i.e. where the problem with the ballot was a hanging chad or there was only a dimple) (See USA Today). That is the most widely used standard, and the one that Gore was asking for, so ultimately Bush won. Fine.

      But I think it might worth at least mentioning that if you include the overvotes (such as where people checked Gore and wrote in Gore) Gore won. That is to say, if the standard is voter intent, in every recount more people went to the polls intending to vote for Gore than Bush. So when you say Bush won every recount, be sure and include that little footnote, because otherwise people may think you are being dishonest. See Guardian. See USA Today. See Salon. See Washington Post.

      And you know, maybe if minority votes counted for as much as a non-minority vote, that would make a difference. See New York Times.

      Personally before Florida, I thought the voter's intent was the standard. How silly.

      Then there was the minorities being intimidated at the polls thing. Then there was Republican officials writing on a bunch of ballots to "fill in missing information." I'm not saying they didn't just fill in missing social security numbers, but it is obviously a violation of election standards to have partisan non-election officials writing on ballots. There are media references for all this stuff too. Go find them yourself. I'm tired.

    15. Re:Security by Confusion? by nobody69 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Those who wish for a strictly popular vote do so because they know they (generally liberally-minded folks) can get elected by promising to hand out more doles...

      Um, no. Actually a big part of the reason people want to get rid of the electoral college is because of the gut feeling, reinforced in every other US election that I can think of, is that the person with the most votes should win, coupled with the fact that all those ads say is ' for President', not 'Electoral college rep who promises to vote for , honest.' It's a perception problem as much as anything else, and you can be sure that if GWB had a majority in the popular, but had lost the electoral, the people bitching about the electoral college would be The Elephant Ass-Licking Society, not The Jackass-Licking Society.

      ...can get elected by promising to hand out more doles (or claim their opponent will take away or severely cut their hand-out) to those already dependent upon the gov't for handouts (welfare, social security, etc.) - most of those dependents live in highly populated areas.

      Actually, according to the Economic Research Service and USDA (http://www.jcpr.org/conferences/oldconferences/ru ral.html), "most poor and welfare-recipient families live outside of central cities, and substantial minorities live outside of metropolitan areas altogether," and lots of other data at the Joint Center for Poverty Research (www.jcpr.org) show that welfare reform hits rural households harder than urban ones. It seems to be mainly due to fewer jobs available in areas with lower poulation densities. Therefore, reducing 'doles' hits the rural poor harder than the urban poor, which doesn't seem to fit your hypothesis.

      Also, you seem to imply that Liberals are the reason for huge government spending. They do spend money, but so do the Conservatives - hence the budget deficits under Bush are frequently compared to the ones under Reagan. Or do you consider these Presidents liberals?

      We should also go back to allowing the State Legislatures elect members of the Senate instead of the people directly.

      And this would stop the impact of polls how? Sure, the senators would conduct the poll by calling their party boss in the state rather than calling in Gallup, but so what? Since elections are popularity contests, polls in some form or another will be there.

      --
      "Bugger this, I want a better world." - Jenny Sparks
  5. My dad worked polls in Orange County, CA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting
    He said the biggest complaint was people who wanted do-overs. With the paper ballots, people can tear it up and ask for a new ballot. With the electronic deallybobs in their current incarnation, no do-overs once you press "vote." Lots of disappointed people.

    So much for progress through IT!

    1. Re:My dad worked polls in Orange County, CA by techno-vampire · · Score: 2, Interesting
      No. You *don't* tear up a mis-voted ballot, you replace it (up to three times) and set them aside. I worked the polls in Los Angeles for over ten years and I know that every ballot must be turned in, either voted, spoiled or defaced.

      All ballots not used must be torn up or marked in a way that shows they weren't used, then sent back. One year, the Inspector told us not to bother and if anybody asked, we'd just tell them we forgot. I reported this the next day, and she wasn't there for the next election.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
  6. Real Time by mao+che+minh · · Score: 4, Funny

    Like Bill Maher said: "Voting with computers used to sound cool and futuristic, back in 1969. Today we know that computers are just big fuck-up machines."

  7. Diebold news on Cringely's site too. by AltGrendel · · Score: 2, Informative
    Did you know that the Diebold machine already have a printer installed?

    I didn't think so.

    --
    The simple truth is that interstellar distances will not fit into the human imagination

    - Douglas Adams

  8. Re:Live from the Nuke Free Zone by dealsites · · Score: 2, Funny

    Or the Duke Nukem Zone, which will never amount to anything. Like politics.

    --
    Latest deals from all the major deal sites.

  9. Re:Election by Santos+L.+Halper · · Score: 4, Funny

    Wouldn't it be your fingers working faster than your brain?

    --

    "Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee." --Bender
  10. Diebold ATMs @ CMU go crazy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Videos and photos of one of Diebold's ATM machines at Carnegie Mellon playing Beethoven today might amuse you.

  11. The scary part by GarbanzoBean · · Score: 3, Insightful

    All the places where he said
    "It appeared to have recorded all of the votes properly, but I can't be 100% certain" or apparently.

    With 1,000,000 people voting, an error 1/1000 is enough to change the results of election for the whole state. We need paper ballots.

    It is even scarier, because he was a poll worker and did't realize this.

  12. Re:Election by Froggert · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So, I'm going to argue against the seemingly overwhelming majority of people out there about voting machines.

    Yes, there are issues. Are the issues any worse than what can/has been done in the past with non-electronic voting? Probably not. I think that Florida proved that you can tamper with the old system just as well as an electronic one.

    Eventually what voting comes down to is trusting that the people who run the system are honest. If you have dishonest people anywhere in the chain; you're going to get bogus results. The only solution that I can see to this issue is that the process must become more open.

    1) Diebold needs to modify the machines to produce a printed slip that shows the party X voted for. X is then responsible for ensuring that the slip makes it into the collection basket. Bar codes can be used to correlate votes in the machine and votes on paper, and verify that they match. Because the electronic vote must match the paper vote, and because the user can verify the paper vote themselves, it becomes harder to cheat.

    2) Make the vote counting process open. If anyone wants to, let them watch votes being counted. Canada does this, why not? Votes are counted to verify election results. In the event of a discrepancy, the paper votes would be used. The electronic tallies would be used for "quick" results.

    Well, it's an idea, anyways :)

    --
    What, me worry?
  13. Wisconsin Assembly passes Paper Trail bill by bmasel · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I just ran into my Assembly Rep., Marc Pocan, who informs me his bill to require a paper trail on electronic voting machines passed the Assembly unanimously. No word on whether it will be taken up in the Senate, as the session is about to wind up. Sorry, no links yet.

    We're already safe for this November, as the State Elections Board has not certified Diebold machines, or their competitors.

    --
    Ben Masel: 51,282 votes for US Senate in the Wisconsin Democratic Primary
  14. Diebold ATMs about as crappy too by gad_zuki! · · Score: 4, Funny

    Here are some photos of a crashed Diebold ATM from National City bank. Yep, that's the windows desktop and the college kids who took the photos were controling the machine. Be afraid.

    1. Re:Diebold ATMs about as crappy too by math+major · · Score: 3, Informative

      More at http://midnightspaghetti.com/news.htm.

  15. When is civil disobedience justified? by revscat · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I have been wondering lately if phsyically damaging these machines is not justified in a system that is supposed to cherish democracy to such a high degree. Civil disobedience is justified in some cases, and I believe that the use of unverifiable electronic voting machines with known vulnerabilities is just such a case.

    Remember, Americans: Bring your voter registration card, and a sledgehammer for Diebold. They are stealing our freedom to vote, the very democracy over which so much blood has been spilled, and the corrupted political process is encouraging it via awarded contracts and almost silent acquiescence.

    This crosses political affiliations and affects all Americans. I strongly believe that this must be stopped it by all means necessary or we will lose the ability to collectively affect the policies of our country, no matter how small your individual voice might be. This is zealous, without a doubt, but not all zealotry is bad. "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice."

    Live free or die.
    1. Re:When is civil disobedience justified? by Mose250 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't remember "civil disobedience" as practiced by Ghandi or MLK including breaking things... it was generally a peaceful type of thing. Maybe a sit-in, demonstrating outside the machines and explaining to the people who come in to vote what's wrong with them, or disobedience like this - but not wrecking the machine. Anyway, these machines seem to do a good enough job of breaking themselves - why go to all the trouble?

    2. Re:When is civil disobedience justified? by k_head · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Sledge hammers are too big. Just get a really powerful magnet, it's easier to carry and may mess things up quite a bit.

      Also small devices that deliver electricy may prove effective.

      Finally you may be able to effect them with a EMF generator from the outside of the building.

      --
      The best way to support the US war effort is to continue buying American products.
    3. Re:When is civil disobedience justified? by Bombcar · · Score: 2, Funny

      Live free or die.

      Live free or Diebold. :)

    4. Re:When is civil disobedience justified? by humankind · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Man, I totally respect your idealism, however completely ineffective it would be in our society today.

      You: smash a voting machine

      Media: some nutball tried to destroy the democratic process - cut to clips of Idaho cult training

      next election

      You and 20 other people you've convinced: smash a voting machine

      Media: Terrorists(tm) try to keep Americans from voting, cut to footage of people wearing turbans with "Al Queda" crawl

      assuming the nobility of your crusade at the next election manages to recruit more people:

      You and 500 others: smash voting machines

      Media: Poignant 30-second segment showing the entrails of battered voting machines (soundtrack provided by the currently popular country music whore) spliced with doctored images out of context of evil-looking, misguided perps, if one of the 500 is Middle Eastern, he will be exclusively focused on, cut to additional segment of children crying, cut to trade center attack, cut to Oklahoma bombing

      You: electric chair

      Media: congratulates itself for once again, protecting the American way of life(tm)

  16. Yeah but by fusker · · Score: 5, Funny

    Does the Diebold do anything to to correct the traditionally crappy choice in candidates? Maybe if it let you create your own cadidate, position by position. Two parts "Simone", a dash of Hal, hmmmm....

  17. Go Absentee by myownkidney · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And then you'll have a paper trail

    1. Re:Go Absentee by kst · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I voted on a Diebold machine in San Diego this month, just so I could see how the system works. The user interface was actually very nice, but I don't trust the system or the company that makes it. I intend to use an absentee ballot from now on, until and unless we switch to human-readable paper ballots. I'll fill out my absentee ballot and drop it off at my local polling place on election day. I may not be particularly quiet about it.

      Using an absentee ballot will make it possible to recount my vote if necessary, but that doesn't do much good if everybody else's votes are miscounted.

      Don't be fooled by talk of "paper receipts". What we need are paper ballots. If they're machine-generated, that's fine; it avoids problems with incorrectly marked ballots. If they're machine-readable, that's fine too -- as long as they're also human-readable.

    2. Re:Go Absentee by CreatureComfort · · Score: 2, Informative

      If all goes well, no person needs to count your paper ballot, but you could do routine 5% sampling fairly cost-effectively just to double-check.

      You must do a routine recount from at least as many of the machines as represents the margin of the election, and make sure you have a good way to randomly select which machines are recounted. Otherwise you have no way of telling if corrupted (intentionally or not) electronically counted ballots affected the outcome enough to change the election.

      --
      "Unheard of means only it's undreamed of yet,
      Impossible means not yet done." ~~ Julia Ecklar
  18. Collection of the final data by JumboMessiah · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I may be paranoid here of just ignorant of how the final process works, but my biggest fear from these things involves the transfer of the data from the precinct machines back to its central point.

    After the machines are dropped off and loaded into the "rented truck" some tech has to extract and accumlate the count data. How easy would it be to alter the counts before the data is transmitted to the central site? Suppose a non tech centric deputy was to oversee the final tally. It might be possible for the tech to alter the counts in plain sight of the deputy without him knowing specifically what's going on.

    It's really hard for me to believe with the amount of tin foil programming/tech talent available that these systems have gone into use without something as simple as a printed ballot. There too much black box magic going on in these things for me to trust them...

  19. My question by jeffkjo1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This never seems to be addressed, but cost.

    If these machines are more difficult to operate and more expensive to maintain, and require the hiring of additional personnel to administer, why are they being used?

    Paper ballots seem exponentially cheaper in all respects, and I haven't seen a piece of oaktag crash in many years.

    1. Re:My question by Ironica · · Score: 2, Informative

      If these machines are more difficult to operate and more expensive to maintain, and require the hiring of additional personnel to administer, why are they being used?

      Most poll workers report that people found them fairly easy to use, even relative to the old paper systems. So ease-of-use is there.

      It's very expensive to run an election (just ask California... we got to spend $50 million on getting a new governor, so that he could do just what the old one was doing, but with a funny accent). A lot of the cost is printing up ballots. In addition, it's difficult to make last-minute changes... when I voted in California, the Democratic primary ballot included candidates who had dropped out more than a month ago. There are many new costs with electronic balloting, but there are a lot of costs you get rid of at the same time.

      The biggest savings is time and money on vote tabulation. Even when it's punch cards, someone has to stack those up and feed them into the machine. With an electronic ballot, the votes are tabulated instantly. Even if you do a 5% sample of the paper record to double-check, you save a huge amount of resources on counting.

      So e-voting isn't necessarily a lot more expensive than paper voting. Sure, it can be, but there's the potential for significant cost savings if it's done right. (I reserve judgement on whether or not it's being done right by most jurisdictions.)

      --
      Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
  20. Comprimise by SubtleNuance · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Ok, I admit Diebold's systems are flawed. No Paper Ballot(tm), no trust. I agree.

    Diebold and its advocates are bent and determined to use them in elections. OK, lets do that.

    The Comprimise(TM): Change the voting Method.*

    If your country is split so close, so narrowly through the center, that the *POSSIBILITY* of tampering is not 100% obvious (that causes those riots in the streets...) why not look to garner a better concensus? Why not consider altering the *structure* of the debate? Why not consider the method?

    We /.ers are so frequently decrying "Method Patents" if we cannot fathom the creation of a *fair* automated tallying system (something more 'complex' than paper), why not question what the system itself is?

    If your public discourse is incapable of discussing *that* issue -- Real Reform of Government (like, I dont know, maybe more than a Democracy of the Republicrat Party). If your paperless ballot system was meant to build concensus, you wouldnt have this debate in the first place.

    NO LARGE GROUP WOULD BE UNHAPPY WITH THE RESULTS. Maybe the "one person one vote, winner take all" system is just a little dated? Lets start communicating. Lets focus enough to discuss our governance...if we cant, why build all these "communication tools?".....oh, look, a shiny thing...

    *Woha, woha, woha. Before you go flaming me, or modding me down, I am not delivering a flippant "this is the solution" answer, im suggesting a place to start thinking. I am not for, or against, *that particular method*. There are many, how about PR? (Use Google))

  21. I live in the precinct mentioned... by xochipili · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I was pissed off to have to use the new machines. I was considering voting absentee on election day (as I read that this would involve a paper ballot), or else making a stink at the voting booth and demanding a paper ballot, but I was really busy, and knew that my votes weren't likely to be critical in this election, so I let it slide.

    In a word, the system sucks. From a voter's perspective, here is what happens:

    1) Walk in, they ask you for your address and name. No ID requested.
    2) Sign your name IN PENCIL.
    3) They ask for your party affiliation ("Green" oh that's cute!)
    4) They hand you a smartcard.
    5) Go to the machine, insert the card, and use the touch-screen to vote.
    6) The interface is terrible: Looks like a demo I that someone wrote on the plane ride over to California. Fonts are hard to read, the layout is busy, etc. etc. Other interface bugs I noticed: If you hit the "Next page" button twice, it would blink the button twice, even though only one page was turned. Just crappy UI overall.
    7) I was VERY tempted to write in my own name on the "Write in" section for one of the offices. My thinking was that write-in candidates must be public info, right? So I could use this as a sort-of checksum to make sure my ballot was really cast. Make up a fake write-in candidate for an office that I didn't care about, then check the election results later. But I chickened out.
    8) The end of the process is the worst: You eject your card from the machine, take it back to the poll worker, who then throws it into the pile of used cards. I was struck by this: was my vote on the card that he had just threw back into the stack? Upon further reflection, I realized my vote was on the voting machine, but the appearance was that my vote had just been thrown away.

    Now to be fair, steps (1) and (2) have always been that way. No ID required (for good reason), but why sign your name in pencil?

    But the rest of the system did not inspire confidence. It felt very, very sketchy.

  22. DIEBOLD Politics by myownkidney · · Score: 4, Informative

    I did a search on Money in Politics Database and found 27 records of DIEBOLD employees donating to political campaigns, and 16 of which to the Bush-Cheny 04 Campaign.

  23. Diebold ATM crash by Rufus211 · · Score: 5, Informative

    As other people have posted here are pictures of a Diebold ATM crashed here on campus that dropped to the Windows XP display. We poked around at it for a while because the monitor was a touch screen (and a very, very crappy one that that). Interesting things:

    - Windows media player was installed (as seen in the pictures)
    - It's a P4 2GHz with 512mb of ram (wtf?! why on earth does it need that)
    - There's a CD-RW installed
    - There are two partitions and C: can't be accessed
    - There's the standard crap that comes in My Documents (like the Beethoven playing)
    - The printer is an Epson USB printer
    - There was a device listed for ATM Driver or something, I presume what actually feeds cash.
    - We never were able to get the network up, but there's an Intel network card in there.
    - For some reason there are speakers so we could hear the Beethoven.
    - It's running XP Embedded, didn't catch what version or what patches it had.
    - There was some sort of Text-to-Speech (or maybe S-to-T) program
    - As you can see Acrobat is installed
    - Remote Desktop was enabled! (might have been turned on by one of us though)

    That's what I remember from the 5 minutes before running to class.

    1. Re:Diebold ATM crash by gad_zuki! · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Hmmm..

      >It's a P4 2GHz with 512mb of ram (wtf?! why on earth does it need that)

      "Rich" media ads. You'll need some power to play compressed video of that next hollywood blockbuster while you wait for your cash. Or maybe its just cheaper to buy 'off the shelf' PC commodity stuff. Prob both. Thats probably why WMP was installed.

      The speakers are for the future ads and for the interface for the blind. Most have headphone jacks too.

    2. Re:Diebold ATM crash by ScarKnee · · Score: 3, Informative

      I have about 10 years of experience dealing with ATMs ( I work for a credit union ) and dealing with Diebold in general. When we enter supply mode and end the day's transactions we download the ATM's logs to a floppy disk and then import those transactions into a l'il prog that Diebold gave us. I believe the CD-RW is likely a replacement for the floppy drive and allows the ATM to "journal" its activities over a longer period of time to a very cheap media. Older ATMs "journalled" to a roll of paper usually located inside the machine.

      Anyway, it's kind of reasonable to have a CD-RW, but 512MB RAM seems to be a bit of overkill.

      It also sucks that IBM discontinued OS/2, because older machines often ran it and rarely went down for OS reasons - speaking from experience and also from asking our Diebold rep about it - I have to get his opinion on these voting machines (if he's allow to comment on them).

      Bye

    3. Re:Diebold ATM crash by Platinum+Dragon · · Score: 2, Funny

      - It's a P4 2GHz with 512mb of ram (wtf?! why on earth does it need that) ...

      - It's running XP Embedded ...

      Answered your own question there.

      --

      Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
  24. Re:Election by Mose250 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Hmm... maybe we should check those facts.

    I don't like the guy either, but this Florida crap has to stop. Complain about his policy in Iraq, in Afghanistan, domestically, whatever - there's plenty of good fodder for criticism - but sour grapes won't win you any minds.

  25. Trust by ucblockhead · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you don't trust Diebold, request an absentee ballot. In California, at least, these are still old fashion recountable paper.

    --
    The cake is a pie
  26. I, too, worked the SD Polls by Psychohermit · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I was an assitant systems inspector. We had problems as well, but they were not as bad as the article describes. Our PCM didn't boot into the software, but it was an easy fix -- someone else fixed it before I showed up. I actually ended up driving over to the next precinct over to rescue them -- they didn't have any teenagers working there so no one knew how to use a computer. I started poking around the root filesystem looking for a link to the executable. I noticed a directory called "autoexec" so I checked it out only to find that it contained neither the executable nor a link thereto. I finally found the actual location of the executable--it seemed to be on a datacard of some sort--and started it for them. We had one voting maching give a blank page to someone when it was in large print high contrast mode, but we just hit next and it was fine. The worst problem we had was this: At the end of the day we log into the machines with the admin access card and print a report of the vote totals. One of our machines failed to print -- it just cut off in the middle and wouldn't reprint (some paper trail, eh?). In fact, during the training session, I saw one machine print a line of gibberish when instructed to print. Maybe there's a buffer overflow in the print system somewhere. The worst part was that the voting stations give a total number of votes cast onscreen and a total on the printed tape, and on all of our machines but one, these did not match. They were all off by one vote. I got reports of the same behavior from other poll workers at different precincts. I cancelled one ballot that day, so that might explain the one machine with matching totals. Perhaps the total shown onscreen counts the admin login as a vote. At any rate, it's a stupid error. So, that's my story. Now I just gotta wait for the government to send my check...

    1. Re:I, too, worked the SD Polls by MyFourthAccount · · Score: 2, Informative

      I started poking around the root filesystem looking for a link to the executable. I noticed a directory called "autoexec" so I checked it out only to find that it contained neither the executable nor a link thereto. I finally found the actual location of the executable--it seemed to be on a datacard of some sort--and started it for them.

      That's absolutely rediculous. You obviously don't understand the responsibility of the job.

      You CAN NOT do something like that! What if you found the wrong executable? Maybe it was an earlier debug version that doesn't actually register the vote? Or it has a bug and actually casts the wrong one?

      What if that executable required some other software to be run first, but fails quitely if that doesn't happen??

      That's just crazy; the machine has to be started as per instructions. If it does not it is taken off-line. It's as simple as that, no questions and certainly no fucking around to 'fix' it.

      In fact it's insane that you even had the level of control that you did. It's obvious these machines are not ready yet for prime time.

    2. Re:I, too, worked the SD Polls by Idarubicin · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I was an assitant systems inspector. We had problems as well, but they were not as bad as the article describes.

      True. They were much, much worse. Reread your post, please!

      I started poking around the root filesystem looking for a link to the executable.
      What are they thinking giving every clerk everywhere root?

      I finally found the actual location of the executable--it seemed to be on a datacard of some sort--and started it for them.
      Other posters have noted that you have no way of verifying that this is the correct excutable. What if it was a testing version, or something else uncertified by the state?

      We had one voting maching give a blank page to someone when it was in large print high contrast mode, but we just hit next and it was fine.
      And this is the sort of thing that can be horribly troublesome. People with poor eyesight are mostly (though not exclusively) the elderly--a group that are not known for their comfort (in general) with computers. And here they are with a blank screen.

      One of our machines failed to print -- it just cut off in the middle and wouldn't reprint (some paper trail, eh?).
      How many people voted at that machine? A hundred? Five hundred? How many votes are now either irretrievable at worst or highly suspect at best? Even though it couldn't print the totals, you expect it to submit electronically the correct tally?

      The worst part was that the voting stations give a total number of votes cast onscreen and a total on the printed tape, and on all of our machines but one, these did not match. They were all off by one vote.
      How is this problem not very, very serious? First, you lose whatever thin reassurance the total provided. The system now is without an effective check on number of ballots cast. Second, if there was an error--if it was randomly distributed then it's unlikely (though not impossible) for it to affect an election. If it was systematic (deliberately, or just a programming error that inadvertantly doesn't count the first vote for the first candidate, or something like that) then this could be very serious. If five hundred people use each machine, and you lose one of every five hundred votes for a candidate, that's an error of 2000 votes per million ballots. That's appalling--and larger than the margins in a number of states in the last Presidential election.

      --
      ~Idarubicin
  27. Diebold was put to the test earlier this year.. by Anubis333 · · Score: 4, Informative


    Diebolds voting technology was actually put to the test by some security experts this year who found that:

    - It was an "easy matter," they reported, to reprogram the access cards used by voters and vote multiple times.

    - They were able to attach a keyboard to a voting terminal and change its vote count.

    - And by exploiting a software flaw and using a modem, they were able to change votes from a remote location.

    "Diebold, the machines' manufacturer, rushed to issue a self-congratulatory press release with the headline "Maryland Security Study Validates Diebold Election Systems Equipment for March Primary." The study's authors were shocked to see their findings spun so positively."

  28. The Digital Commons by flopsy+mopsalon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The central problem with electronic voting lies not with bugs, hardware failures, or security, but rather than with our modern concept of democracy and where we see ourselves going as citizens of a common nation.

    It is clear that present electronic voting efforts are the first step in a general program of transforming voting as we know it into an online, decentralized process, with the final goal being a system where voting is an activity as simple and hassle-free as ordering a pizza or sufing to a website.

    Therein lies the problem. As citizens of a common nation, our involvement in the democratic process should be something that brings us together, together with people we would not ordinarily encounter, for what can only be called our sacred ritual of casting votes. A ballot should not be a screen with virtual buttons floating in hyperspace, it should be a hefty card, symbolizing the hefty decision that lies with each voter, it shows our seriousness that decision needs is embodied in the real physical ballots that are carefully tallied and counted and not simply disseminated into electronic bits.

    The process of voting should be a little inconveniencing, with voters having to drive to the polling station, stand in line, and punch a ballot. It reinforces our sense of civic pride to have to make a bit of an effort to vote. It demeans the democratic system for the voting process to be allowed to atrophy into a simple matter of point-and-click, no need to get out of your chair. Choosing the laws and leadership of a nation should be an act more involved than switching channels.

    When the once-proud rituals of democracy are reduced to a set of simple gestures, once the paricipants in the voting process are reduced to a mass of isolated individuals typing on keyboards or pushing buttons on PDAs, a sense of togetherness is lost. The insiduous decentralization of the voting system that is the end result of electronic voting can only lead to the erosion of our sense of citizenship, of being equal paricipants in something larger than ourselves. Could the erosion of democracy itself be far behind? It seems the dystopian corporate-run societies of so-called "cyberpunk" "fiction" more than just sci-fi.

  29. Diebold CEO Bush contributor and evangelist.. by Anubis333 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Does anyone else find it weird that the maker of the horribly insecure "paperless" Diebold voting machines is a massive Bush Campaign contributor?

    In Ohio [he] told Republicans in a recent fund-raising letter that he is "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year."

    The Aug. 14 letter from Walden O'Dell, chief executive of Diebold Inc. - who has become active in the re-election effort of President Bush - prompted Democrats this week to question the propriety of allowing O'Dell's company to calculate votes in the 2004 presidential election.

    O'Dell attended a strategy pow-wow with wealthy Bush benefactors - known as Rangers and Pioneers - at the president's Crawford, Texas, ranch earlier this month. The next week, he penned invitations to a $1,000-a-plate fund-raiser to benefit the Ohio Republican Party's federal campaign fund - partially benefiting Bush - at his mansion in the Columbus suburb of Upper Arlington.

    The letter went out the day before Ohio Secretary of State Ken Blackwell, also a Republican, was set to qualify Diebold as one of three firms eligible to sell upgraded electronic voting machines to Ohio counties in time for the 2004 election.


    [Link to the story quoted above]

  30. Are we missing something? by LighthouseJ · · Score: 3, Interesting
    When I think back to Florida in the 2000 elections, wasn't the problem that voters picked no president (where the people had to determine if a chad was punched out enough to count as a vote) or picked the wrong president (butterfly vote layout)?

    Well, these voting machines are the wrong tool to fix this problem. The electronic voting machine like Diebold's are meant to totally erase the paper trail which is very bad thing, IMO. What they should make is basically a ballot booth that prints punchcards. You stand at the machine and it asks you:
    Who do you want for president?
    [ ] George W. Bush (R)
    [ ] John Kerry (D)
    ...
    [ ] None
    Then the machine punches the ballot for you, so there won't be any confusion as to who you're voting for. You can also run an independant tally in the electronic machine, then check it against the punch cards by feeding them back in to a reader, if everything meets up, then few people can contest the results.
  31. About the RAM by goldfndr · · Score: 2, Insightful

    My speculation is that it caches the bloated application(s) into a RAM disk. Makes things quicker. RAM is cheap.

    --
    Copyrights, Patents, Trademarks: temporary loans from the Public Domain, not real property ("intellectual" or otherwise)
  32. comment on open source in the poll worker's manual by laird · · Score: 4, Informative

    A Q/A transcribed (by me) from the scanned manuals distributed to poll workers:

    "what about the issue of Open Source Code?"

    Diebold's ballot tabulation source code is checked extensively by an independent testing authority which tests according to voting software standards developed by the Federal Election Commission. Once this test process is successfully completed, the source code is placed in an escrow facility.

    Source Code is not open to the public to protect not only the companies intellectual property, but also to prevent the possibility of tampering or other fraudulent manipulation of the tabulation program.

    in Georgia, the Secretary of State challenged a citizen to try to tamper with the ballot tabulation program after this citizen made claims about the program's vulnerability. When the citizen learned the source code was not available, she abandoned the effort to tamper with the program.

  33. Re:comment on open source in the poll worker's man by laird · · Score: 2, Interesting

    OK, now my reaction to that Q/A:

    The FEC hasn't published any real testing standards, so it's not terribly useful to say that the code was testing against the FEC standards. Also, it's not useful to say that the code is in excrow, or audited, unless the code in production is built from the code in escrow and audited, because otherwise you haven't proven anything other than that the same company that produced the voting system you're running also produced some code that passed your audit and went into escrow. That is, there's no reason to believe that it's the same code, so the audit doesn't prove anything about the code in production.

    And, of course, we all know after the last few decades that "security through obscurity" doesn't work as well as "security through peer revew".

    And I don't know what the Secretary of State's ability to intimidate one critic proves, since several other security audits of proprietary voting systems have revealed massive security flaws.

  34. civil disobedience is nullified by biased media by humankind · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If you SHOW, to EVERYONE, that the system has problems then that would say something to those in power.

    That's good in theory, but in practice, the mainstream media, which is currently the most effective way of disseminating information, has been anything but objective in its selection of what is and isn't worthy of covering. It's worth noting that the media has found an interesting method of injecting its bias by selectively deciding what is and isn't worth covering, which in many cases, is more effective than spinning something in their favor. Either way, the media is becoming progressively more aggressive in employing both methods.

    The Internet couldn't have come at a better time in terms of giving more people, more sources of information, but its ability to influence or educate the populace is trivial compared to the major media conglomorates. Notwithstanding the constant quips by the mainstream media designed to undermine the Internet as an alternative source of valid news.

    As a result, I don't believe that something like civil disobedience is effective any more. A good example of this can be found in the network coverage of the WTO meetings (in Seattle for example) where thousands protested, and it was covered by the major media, but little more was conveyed than the idea that a bunch of freakazoids smashed some stuff. The agenda of the majority of the protesters, the issues they raised, were all but ignored in favor of 10-second video clips of cars burning and fringe characters acting unruly.

    So the current battle isn't to find the truth, it's to figure out how to get the truth to the people through a web of entities which not only will oppose your efforts, but dilligently work to undermine you at every aspect. If your methods involve anything illegal, this gives the media powers that oppose you the evidence they need to dismiss you, and destroy you without any discussion or second thought.

  35. A receipt is not enough by JimmytheGeek · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It has to be collected and retained like an old fashioned paper ballot. In which case, electronic voting offers nothing.

    Say it prints out the vote. The tally still says what CEO "I am committed to delivering Ohio's electoral votes to G.W. Bush" wants the tally to say.

    Canada counts paper ballots under the watchful eye of partisans, and gets it done in a few hours. How many ballots can you count in an hour? Hire enough counters and let the parties watch. Done fsking deal.

    I was in the odd position of being called a luddite by a computer science academic. He was Russian, and figured electronic vote rigging was not such a new thing. I have a little more of a security background, and I think the challenges of securing the system end-end are insurmountable. As the systems are now, they are laughably easy to corrupt. And is there any greater incentive to cheat than political power?

  36. Re:hmm i'm a san diegan voter by Ironica · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Do you think they've got a room full of sweatshop workers chained to desks counting them by hand? No. They count them with a punch card reader. Okay, so I've never used one (I'm not _that_ old), but I really doubt that they're impossible to compromise.

    I doubt that they are *impossible* to compromise, too. But, you're omitting a few relevant details:

    - These machines work on technology that has been essentially unchanged for many, many years. The code is simple, and likely is public domain, since the government probably developed it. The process is mostly mechanical.

    - Access to those machines is very limited. The people who use them are all employees of the election system, which doesn't put them above scrutiny, but does make them far more accountable than Joe Voter. You don't have the punch-card readers out on public display for literally every registered citizen to be able to walk up and stick a smartcard into.

    - When there's a question about the results, a *hand* recount can be and is done. This happened in Florida... hundreds of people *did* sit there and go through those cards by hand, tabulating votes.

    Obviously, the issues are far from parallel, and there are methods of dealing with them in the case of the old punch cards. Here, there's simply no voter-verifiable record... so no recounts possible.

    --
    Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
  37. Re: No visual ID required by I+am+Jack's+username · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't get it, are you saying anyone can go and vote at any polling place if they know the name and address of someone who lives in the allotted area? What am I missing?

  38. Well, this pretty much shoots it then. . ! by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 2
    A few months ago, when there was only talk of going electronic for elections, and Diebold was just a foul whif on the wind, people discussed on forums like Slashdot the pros and cons. -Er, make that, people shouted and fumed.

    Then the dirt began to surface. Internal emails. Party affiliations. Conflicts of interest. Bad code.

    This stuff has been laid bare. The world has been alerted. Very Smart People(tm) have given their dour warnings.

    At one point I was even getting a little optimistic. I posted something here to the effect of, "Well, this is the test! Everybody now knows and agrees that electronic voting is a Bad Idea, and now we'll get to see how proactive Americans are going to be. The choice has been placed before them. I can't imagine that nothing will be done about this!"

    Foolish, foolish Fantastic Lad!

    Americans are not just asleep; they are tied down! Too tired after their long work days to do anything. Too brain-wiped by their cell phones, drugged food, anti-depressants, television and social conditioning to be able to gather the brain cells required to elicit anything more than a vague, "Aw nuts" response. And the media is owned by the wrong people. Man, back in Superman's day, the headlines would have shouted, "CORRUPTION!" and there would have been public outcry, riots, Bushmen hauled from office and run out of town on good ol' American rails!

    But instead, people choose to sleep.

    Man. Some days I wish I was an American living in that once bold nation just so I could shotgun some asshole politico or Diebold rep and be hauled away with a raised fist while American housewives whimpered and their stout husbands shook their heads, "Well, something had to be done! It's a shame it came to this, but Americans simply don't lie down for this sort of thing!"

    Well, perhaps at one time this might have been true. There was a time when hanging a corrupt politician would have been considered a reasonable response. But now the people are so controled, that their rage can be directed with pin-point accuracy at whatever target the corrupt politicos want destroyed. "Just blow up a building or two and blame the people we want to see take a fall! That ALWAYS works!"

    Pathetic.


    -FL

  39. Re:Diebold's competition's CEO was killed today by Zak3056 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Killed in a car accident, head of a company that was trying to push for a different system with a paper trail of votes.

    Suspicious?


    And, in other news, stock prices of Alcoa and other large aluminium concerns were up today.

    --
    What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
  40. What is wrong with paper ballots ? by frost22 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What is wrong with paper ballots ? Maybe someone can enlighten me. I live in a 80M poeple nation where paper ballots seem to work without any problem. We have elections, some of them rather complicated, and usually you have to vote on something every 1-2 years. We always get speedy and dependable results - even with national elections that are way mor complicated than a US presidential elections we usually have a stable estimation before midnight on voting day, ad a provisorical result sometime next day. There never was any problem with vote fraud worth mentioning (though occasionally a politician gets in trouble with the finer points of anti-vote-fraud laws) and basically the perception is that this just works.

    Why can't yopu make that work in the US ?

    --
    ...and here I stand, with all my lore, poor fool, no wiser than before.
    1. Re:What is wrong with paper ballots ? by bechthros · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I would cheerfully submit to strip-searching prior to casting a paper ballot rather than be forced to give my vote to a machine that may or may not count it, that will give no verification of whether it has done so or not, and that's owned by a company whose president's stated objective, in his own words, is to deliver as many votes as possible to the GOP.

  41. Paper ballots are most accurate by persaud · · Score: 3, Insightful

    An MIT/Caltech study of voting technology found that paper ballots are the most accurate.

    The 2004 Democratic primary had a turnout pattern of primary-specific apathy (lower than expected votes) and caucus-specific inspiration (high and record high votes). Why did the New York primary record a 20-year low turnout on the same day that the Minnesota caucus recorded a 33-year high turnout?

    South Carolina's state Dem party fought pressure from the national Dems to institute a loyalty oath for voters, which would have torpedoed Edwards. State officials chose to hand count paper ballots for security, even though machines were available. South Carolina was one of the few 2004 primaries to report record turnout and the only state where Edwards won.

    Hand counted paper ballots are the gold standard of voting. Cheaper and faster are neither necessary nor desirable properties of biennial elections.

  42. Re: No visual ID required by bizard · · Score: 2, Insightful

    yes, that is correct. In order to provide anonymous voting to all registered voters, you are not required to have ID. The only thing keeping you from using someone elses name is the possibility that they will show up later (or have already shown up). In fact, this seems like a fabulous way to invalidate _all_ results at a polling place which is not likely to vote in your favor. Simply show up early with a couple of dozen people who claim to be local residents. When the real people show up later there will be no way to determine which votes were valid and which weren't.