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A High-tech Wheel of Fortune

tcp writes "The BBC is reporting that the London police have detained three people, for allegedly beating the roulette wheel at a London casino. Using a cell phone, a computer and a laser scanner, they were able to predict where the roulette ball would land, winning more than 1.5 million dollars in the process. This technique was not new, and as I recall was the plot of a movie once. The suspects have not been charged yet. The UK has been behind in bringing their gambling laws to deal with new hi-tech threats unlike the US and Las Vegas."

106 of 371 comments (clear)

  1. $1.5*10^6? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    After winning $1.5*10^3 you'd think they'd start to get suspicious.

  2. Las Vegas by ungulation · · Score: 3, Funny

    unlike the US and Las Vegas ahhh yes... the country of Las Vegas

    1. Re:Las Vegas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      while this post was neither particularly funny, nor insightful, i'd like to predict that it gets modded as +5 one or the other if for no other reason than it is a first post.

    2. Re:Las Vegas by boarder8925 · · Score: 3, Funny
      the country of Las Vegas
      It was on the Internet, so, then it must be true!
    3. Re:Las Vegas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      i didn't expect the spanish inquisition....

    4. Re:Las Vegas by Zeinfeld · · Score: 4, Informative
      URL? Why wasn't it considered prostitution?

      BBC News last year, Australian last week. I sent the story in, I thought they would be too prudish to publish. I was right.

      Under UK law it is considered prostitution but prostitution is not and never has been illegal in the UK. Soliciting an act of prostitution is illegal however. It is far from clear that this was technically soliciting in the meaning of the act.

      Prostitution and internet soliciting have actually been widely tollerated by the police in the UK for about ten years. The police would rather be in the business of regulating brothels than dealling with street walkers.

      There is another police angle that I have a personal connection with. I used to work in a computer shop at the weekends. It was not in a very good location and it closed down sometime after I left. After a while the shop became a 'massage parlor'. This operated without complaints for a year until a girl was murdered by one of the clients. As the law stood (still stands in fact) a single girl working on her own is not a brothel, but two are. As a result the city council and the local police decided to tell the local establishements that from now on they would not enforce the brothel-keeping law. They also tolerate Web sites which give little doubt as to their true purpose. Oh and the shop is now a very expensive financial services advice place catering to 'high net worth' individuals.

      The other reason that the virginity auction is unlikely to be prosecuted is that the event was a staged protest at the cost of school fees. The government does not want this to become a saga, particularly as they have proposed complete legalization.

      --
      Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
      Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
    5. Re:Las Vegas by pantycrickets · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Under UK law it is considered prostitution but prostitution is not and never has been illegal in the UK. Soliciting an act of prostitution is illegal however. It is far from clear that this was technically soliciting in the meaning of the act.

      Law has little to do with what Ebay may allow or not allow on their site. Check out their policy here.

      They have pulled auctions of OEM software of mine which complied with all of their rules. I really can't imagine they'd let one go from an overseas virgin girl.

      Ebay used to have a firearms section, now they will pull tons of stuff that's not even against their rules, and definitely not illegal.

      Note: I hate Ebay.

  3. Why were they detained ? by Timesprout · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I cant see the problem here. Tough on the Casino if there is a problem with their roulette wheel

    --
    Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
    What truth?
    There is no dupe
    1. Re:Why were they detained ? by flewp · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not sure exactly on the laws, but I'm guessing anytime you try and improve the odds for yourself at a casino it's probably illegal.

      Like I said, I have no idea, but maybe also because it's considered fraud in some way?

      --
      WWJD.... for a Klondike bar?
    2. Re:Why were they detained ? by lukewarmfusion · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The problem wasn't with their wheel - it was the fact that the players brought in equipment and used it to cheat.

      Some other obvious cheating examples:
      -Bringing in cameras and linking them so a player can see his opponent's cards.
      -Using a device to let you predict/influence the roll of the dice.
      -Hacking a slot machine to produce winning pulls

      The point? It's not a flaw with the casino or their equipment - it's a bunch of jackasses trying to cheat.

    3. Re:Why were they detained ? by lukewarmfusion · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's the kind of attitude that reinforces the vigilante methods that many casinos have used in the past. Cheating laws can help protect the cheater... casinos know that they can turn to the law for help dealing with these jackasses, and the jackasses don't end up in a dumpster.

    4. Re:Why were they detained ? by kwandar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But, they didn't cheat. The croupier turned the wheel and released the ball. All they did was "predict", albiet with the help of some equipment. Isn't that what gambling is about? Predicting?

      As the article states, the casino can avoid prediction, by simply spinning the wheel faster.

    5. Re:Why were they detained ? by mr_tenor · · Score: 5, Insightful


      I have mod points, but I feel the need to reply here, though it sounds like flamebait.



      The 3 other "obvious" emaples you cite are cheating - they circumvent the rules of the guessing competition. Why do you label the actions mentioned in the story as cheating? No rules have been circumvented. All that is being done is making use of the information which is available to everyone in a clever way.



      A similar thing happens with card counting in blackjack - all you do is play the game in a smart way instead of blindly guessing. However, the casinos don't want people to do anything other than blindly guess because it means the odds can be tipped in their favour instead of in favour of the house.

    6. Re:Why were they detained ? by jrockway · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I don't want my tax dollars to be spent prosecuting "cheaters". I don't give a flying fuck if someone rips off those cheats (the casinos). The casinos can use their paid security guards ("loss prevention engineers") to kick/ban cheaters. That's fine with me. They can spend THEIR money so they can make money. They CANNOT spend _my_ money so that they may be profitable. How could anyone disagree!?

      And if a cheater ends up in a dumpster, that's murder. Whomever did that should be executed. I don't mind paying for that.

      --
      My other car is first.
    7. Re:Why were they detained ? by gl4ss · · Score: 2, Insightful

      casino games are not predicting, predicting implies that there would be some way to determine the outcome(which there shouldn't be in casino games).
      sports betting is predicting.

      casino games are all about 'random'(well, unless you count counting cards in blackjack). at least they're supposed to be(and in some places, this is relevant for taxation as there is no skill involved).

      roulette is a fine casino game in the sense that it's possible to choose quite a variety of what chances you're wishing to take(not that it matters anyway).

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    8. Re:Why were they detained ? by WalksOnDirt · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Casinos love card counters, most of them that is.

      Counting cards is hard, and a lot harder when you are actually in the casino than when you are practicing at home.

      Most card counters are easily spotted, but only the few who are able to win get banned.

      --
      a,e,i,o,u and sometimes w and y (at be if of up cwm by)
    9. Re:Why were they detained ? by spiritraveller · · Score: 2, Insightful
      All they did was "predict", albiet with the help of some equipment. Isn't that what gambling is about? Predicting?

      It is usually illegal to use a "device" other than your brain to help you make bets in a casino.

      It's cheating in the same way that it would be cheating if you used a hidden computer to win a chess tournament.

    10. Re:Why were they detained ? by mlippert · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually I don't even think all of those other methods of cheating are actually cheating.

      Some other obvious cheating examples:
      • Bringing in cameras and linking them so a player can see his opponent's cards.
      • Using a device to let you predict/influence the roll of the dice.
      • Hacking a slot machine to produce winning pulls

      Cheating involves breaking the rules of the game.

      The 1st example is cheating because you the rules specifically forbid you from circumventing your opponents ability to prevent you from seeing his cards.

      The 2nd example is both cheating and not cheating. A device that influences the roll of the dice is cheating, a device that helps you predict the roll of the dice is not.

      The 3rd example is also clearly cheating because hacking a slot machine is clearly changing the rules of the game. However having a device that could let you know if a slot machine was close to paying off would not be cheating.

      Mike

    11. Re:Why were they detained ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      As a roulette dealer myself, I can assure you that this is a conceivable position but not an agreeable one. Spinning the wheel faster does cause the frets to have a greater influence on the ball, but its still statistically going to stick to that section.

      As well, as the article notes, PLAYERS don't like it! There are only so many rule changes you can make in the interest of cheat reductions before the legitimate players get fed up and leave. (One of these is disallowing blackjack players to increase the number of hands they play mid-shoe). As an aside, in the Province of Alberta, casino dealers are to stop betting two ball revolutions BEFORE THE DROP, not after the spin commences. As in many gambling areas, the regulations must be changed: the casino can't just create rules (even sensible ones) out of the blue.

      For this reason, speeding up the wheel and reducing bet times are not good ideas. It will prevent cheating, because the legitimate players will stop playing and the game will be shut down!

      The best way to prevent wheel tracking I've found is just to constantly (every spin) change the speed of the wheel and the ball. I like to let the wheel slow and then push it with the ball just before I spin. This would require these cheats to constantly re-compute, increasing the likelihood of detection.

    12. Re:Why were they detained ? by GigsVT · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Card counting is not allowed, but it's not illegal, you'll never ever get arrested for counting cards. That's the whole point of this thread.

      --
      I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
    13. Re:Why were they detained ? by John+Hasler · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Was anything they did against the stated rules of the game? If not, where's the cheating? If so, where is the crime? Seems to me that the rules of a gambling game amount to a species of civil contract. The casinos certainly have the right to throw cheaters out and should be able to sue them for damages, but I see no reason why cheaters should be prosecuted criminally. It's a private matter between the casino and the alleged cheater.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    14. Re:Why were they detained ? by John+Hasler · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Even if it was cheating, so what? Why should they be arrested? It's the casino's problem to detect cheaters and throw them out (and perhaps sue them for damages). It's a private matter between the casinos and their customers. If the casinos can't handle it, tough shit.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    15. Re:Why were they detained ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting
      gl4ss wrote:
      predicting implies that there would be some way to determine the outcome

      That's the point really. There is a way to predict the outcome. Like a lot of games, it is not a game of pure skill, it has an element of chance and an element of skill in the form of predicting where the ball will land. Just like blackjack is a game of chance and skill. The skill comes in when you try to predict what cards are going to be dealt based on statistics and your knowledge of what cards have been dealt so far. Of course, the casinos consider people who are too good at "counting cards" to be cheaters as well.


      The problem here is that the argument that you cannot use technological devices to help you in gambling is a slippery slope argument. I've never heard of a casino banning anyone for glasses or contacts, even if they help people see better and therefore enhance their natural gambling skills. What about future visual aids. Lets say you have a low resolution artificial retina for blind which cannot see as well or in the same way as a normal retina and makes up for it by, for example, using a computer to track motion and plotting courses for objects in Heads Up Display? Or how about if it allows the user to rewind their vision to specific bookmarks, allowing them to supplement their memory (helpful in remember what cards have already been dealt, for example). Are the disabled going to be banned from future casinos?

      All this is really beyond the point in my opinion. Random redistribution of wealth at casions is stupid. Redistribution of wealth based on exceptional skill at gambling is considered cheating by the casinos. The government, when they allow private gambling to interfere on their own gambling monopoly, seem to agree with the casinos in these matters. So, the end result is that, on the whole, the only people who actually win at casinos are the odd successful gambler, the cheaters who do not get caught, and the casinos themselves. In other words, casinos are dumb. I guess I hold the view that people should be allowed to gamble if they want to, but I think they are stupid to do so.

    16. Re:Why were they detained ? by mindstrm · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Only in some jurisdictions, and then only in more recent history.

      In the early days of vegas it was not illegal, partly because nobody really thought of it.

      Using a computer to win a chess tournament is different.. because the game of chess is completely about mind-vs-mind.

      In a casino.. the casino tries to portray the games as perfectly random.. that's why it's called gambling. IN a few games, however, it is possible for the observant calculating person to gain an edge on the house, and suddenly not be gambling, but working. Obviously the casinos do what they can to demonize this, and call it cheating.

    17. Re:Why were they detained ? by mindstrm · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, it's not cheating.

      They are using public information available to everyone. That is not cheating.

      They are in no way influencing the outcome for everyone else.

      Using hidden cameras to view other player's poker hands is cheating.. the game is based on the fact that you can't see other players cards.

      Unethical? Casinos are unethical in the first place, many would argue.

      Counting cards at blackjack is not cheating. Neither is using the same system with a computer instead of your brain... however, the latter is illegal in Nevada. It is still not, however, cheating.

      It may very well be that the law where these guys pulled this stunt has nothing in it that bars observing the game or computer assistance. So long as they in no way tampered with the outcome of the game, it's not cheating.

    18. Re:Why were they detained ? by mindstrm · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This comes down to the law though.

      Nobody expects the casino to allow them to play, or to not ban them for life... everyone involved HAD to konw the casino would blow a gasket when they found out.

      The issue is whether or not this is criminal.. in Vegas, it would be, because there are specific laws dealing with using computing devices to augment your play.

      Barring such laws, and considering their method in no way interfered with the game itself, there is probably nothing the casino can charge them with.. just as a card counter in blackjack cannot be charged with cheating.
      A person using the same system to count cards as me, but using a computer to do it, WOULD be charged in nevada.. whearas I would merely be politely barred form the blackjack table at that particular casino.

    19. Re:Why were they detained ? by mindstrm · · Score: 2, Informative

      Nope.

      Unless there is a specific law barring using calculating devices... it's probably not illegal. nevada has such specific laws.

      As long as you are not interfering with the game in some way, or obtaining information you are not supposed to have (like another player's hidden cards).. you are not cheating.

      Casinos in most places can, however, bar anyone they like from playing. If you win consistently, you will be gone.

    20. Re:Why were they detained ? by the.pornlord · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Counting cards is quite possible with multiple decks. Using a basic plus/minus system you can gain quite an advantage over a 6 or 8 deck shoe.
      For a casino that uses and 8 deck shoe (+.58% H/A) and allows doubles after splitting (-.14% H/A) you are playing a game with a .44% house advantage. If you play perfect basic strategy with no deviations you reduce the house advantage to 0.
      While playing this shoe, if you use the high/low count system, and have a true count of +2 you are actually playing at a .5% PLAYERS advantage. While .5% doesn't sound lilke much, this is slightly more of an advantage than the house usually has. If you are using a 5 unit bet spread you can actually beat the house.
      There are thousands of books on counting out there, I suggest that you check out a few and see what can really be done.

    21. Re:Why were they detained ? by jtcm · · Score: 2, Insightful
      also, did you realize that it is illegal to count cards in blackjack? even in your brain? if they have reason to believe that you are counting cards, even in your head, they will kick you to the curb.

      afaik, counting cards is perfectly legal. It is also perfectly legal for any given casino to throw you off their property if they suspect you of counting cards. They can throw you out for no good reason at all...it's their property, after all.

      --
      @ASP.NET's parent-teacher meeting: "Little Johnny.NET is very bright, but he doesn't play well with others."
    22. Re:Why were they detained ? by Mal-2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Re-compute? That's a bit excessive, considering what your speedups will do (for the most part) is move the hotspot on the wheel over a couple of spots. The player need only adjust the one or two slots due to your speed change (of the wheel, the ball speed is irrelevant). A faster wheel will tend to have the hotspot wander "downrange", while a slower one does the opposite. Anyone attempting this prediction (with or without assistance) is going to play a fairly long (5 to 7 numbers) spread of consecutive numbers on the wheel anyhow, plus the (speed-related) number at one end of that spread.

      The ball speed is irrelevant because the speed necessary to hold it up to the inner rim is a constant. No matter how hard you snap it, it will eventually drop to that same rate, after going around the rim a few extra times.

      Different dealers use different balls too -- usually a larger ball for someone with bigger hands. This has an effect on the hotspot as well, but this likely is of the same nature as the speed factor and will just slide the hotspot down or back a number. It seems to me that the smaller, lighter ball takes more odd hops and tends to end up further downrange, similar to a fast wheel.

      The obstacle to doing this without assistance is, of course, the mathematics. I have no doubt some people can pull it off, but they're going to be a very small group in relation to the thousands of suckers who sit down at the table every day. These people got busted because they used technological assistance, and (probably more importantly) played it huge and made it rise above the background noise. Had they won 10,000 pounds, I doubt it would have aroused nearly so much suspicion.

      Mal-2

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
  4. I know... by lukewarmfusion · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Don't gamble.

    If you can find a way to improve your chances, it's probably against the rules. The only game I'm aware of that has a better than 50% chance of winning (against the house, that is) is blackjack.

    Winning big (and often) on roulette raises eyebrows right away. They could have at least tried to beat a game that wasn't quite so obvious.

    1. Re:I know... by mrscorpio · · Score: 5, Informative

      There isn't a better than 50% chance of winning if you don't count cards. If you play absolutely perfect non-card-counting strategy, your chances of winning are 49 1/2%.

      Even the most basic of card counts gives you a slight advantage (1/4 to 1/2%), however. You have to be very patient and wait for a good shoe, however.

      Chris

    2. Re:I know... by LostCluster · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A game with a .25% advantage in favor of the player would still require a high number of games be played before the player is assured victory. The game could take a random walk unfavorable to the player, just like some lucky people can win big despite playing blackjack poorly according to book logic just because they happened to hit a random walk in their favor.

    3. Re:I know... by Dorothy+86 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Statistically, its almost correct, but in blackjack the house will always win eventually... the trick is not more difficult than quitting when you get ahead. In blackjack, he house is at the advantage, at every turn. This however doesn't guarentee a win. So play statistical odds, and leave the table when you get to a preset goal. The only real way to win gambling, is to have discipline. or sheer luck.

    4. Re:I know... by Monkelectric · · Score: 2, Informative
      Actually, thats called your ROR -- risk of ruin. Its a percentage that quantifies the risk that you'll loose all your money (down 100%) before you'll double it (up 100%). Obviously the higher your bank roll, the lower your ROR.

      I dont think card counting is really an issue anymore as *VERY* few casinos still play with one deck. Most play with 6 - 8 decks at once which lowers the gain from card counting to almost nothing.

      --

      Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley

    5. Re:I know... by WalksOnDirt · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Some of the variants of video poker have rules that reward perfect play with a very small positive return.

      The figures I've seen are that with the largest available bet, and the fastest feasible play, the player's advantage is so small that he couldn't expect to make minimum wage.

      It does allow the casinos to advertise that their machines offer 100%+ payout, which should be a marketing advantage. That is, if enough people believe them.

      This assumes the machines are fair, which is pretty difficult to be sure of.

      Still, my experience is that if you play well, and enjoy it, video poker on the right machine can be cheap entertainment.

      --
      a,e,i,o,u and sometimes w and y (at be if of up cwm by)
    6. Re:I know... by awol · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Imagine standing ten paces away from a cliff top and tossing a coin. Heads you take one pace towards the edge and tails you take one pace away. Eventually you will die. Its just a question of time. Playing "to win" against a casino is exactly the same you will lose it's just a question of time. In fact, for the casino it's all about turnover. They design the games to ensure that they get their X%, for any given game, different casino, different X. But generally speaking it is all about turnover their margin on games is between 18 and 22% (MGM Mirage Annual Report 2002) and not the theoretical 0.5 - 3% of the mathematics of the game. Casino gambling, lotteries etc is just a tax on people that cant do maths.

      --
      "The first thing to do when you find yourself in a hole is stop digging."
    7. Re:I know... by mrscorpio · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You don't have to count them all. Just two groups.

      Group 1 - cards 5 or less
      Group 2 - 10's or face cards

      When you've counted a significantly higher number of group 1's than group 2's, increase your bet - more high cards gives the player better odds, and vice versa.

      I did this in Vegas with a 2-deck shoe that they cut 22 cards out of at shuffle and won $290 at a $5 table...I would bet $20 on the first hand of a shoe and $10 - $20 on a somewhat favorable to very favorable shoe thereafter, and $5 every other time. I didn't even count the whole deck, just each hand. With about 21 cards per hand at a six-player table, if I got a +5 or better inbalance, I ramped up my bets. And it worked like a charm, I probably won 75% of my big bets and lost 75% of my small bets (give or take), therefore netting me profit in the end.

      Chris

    8. Re:I know... by the.pornlord · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Try this system but use 2-7 as +1, 7,8,9 as neutral and 10-A as -1. When you have a signifcantly higher count you are playing at an advantage.
      This is know as the Hi/low count and is the most effective system, due to it's simplicity.

  5. Tipping the odds in your favor... by centralizati0n · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Remember, once you have a large enough amount of capital, any advantage over 50% is garaunteed to make you money. IIRC, the Wired article on the MIT blackjack card counters said that they had quite a "low" advantage over the casino (one that seems insignificant to a lot of people), but because of the money that was invested, they were able to win over the casino in a big way.

    1. Re:Tipping the odds in your favor... by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 5, Funny
      ... once you have a large enough amount of capital, any advantage over 50% is garaunteed to make you money.

      If you have that much capital, then to hell with the gambling. Go get some hookers!

  6. that's new... by ruebarb · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've seen computerized card counters - but being able to read a roulette wheel, that's something...

    some people who would consider themselves professionals do the same thing by eye - make a guesstimate based on when the roulette employee releases the ball - but to do it with computers - well, that's just wrong :)

    but if it ain't illegal, it'll be hard to prosecute - it's like counting cards...not illegal, but you'll get your butt booted from the casino pronto -

    RB

    --

    ----------
    ah honey, we're all resplendent - Bill Mallonee
    1. Re:that's new... by LostCluster · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It depends from jurisdiction to jurisdiction what casinos are allowed to do with players they don't like, such as card counters...

      In Las Vegas, for example, they can simply tell a card counter they're no longer welcome there and force them to leave. In Atlantic City, they cannot, but they are allowed to annoy a card counter out of their casino with tactics such as a shuffle after every hand.

  7. Physics can solve anything if it has all the info by LostCluster · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Randomness is really sometimes just a proxy for "too complex to be understood". Afterall, in any form of mixing bin, all of the balls inside do have to obey the laws of physics. If you knew the starting positions and details about all of the activities that are going on in the bin, you could possibly solve for which ball is going to be the one selected.

    That's why it's essential that some details of the mixing situation should not be disclosed to the public while betting is still going on. I think what makes most daily blower-bin based lotto games unpredictible is the fact that the exact to-the-nanosecond time at which the bin is opened is being determined by a presenter who is also responsible for talking at the same time. Therefore, they can't possibly have enough control of their hands know what exactly their influence on the outcome is going to do. Since nobody else can really predict down to the fraction of a second what the presenter is going to do, everybody's on a level playing field.

    I think the ultimate solution to this roulette wheel issue will be to call a stop to betting before the ball and wheel are put into motion. Therefore, by the time the information needed to determine the result of this spin is available, it will be too late to act upon it.

  8. How bizarre! by Sitnaltax · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If the wheel was less than perfectly random, it is the casino that was cheating, not the patrons. So why are they the ones who have been detained?

    1. Re:How bizarre! by evil_roy · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's not about the wheel being less than perfect. This sort of problem becomes obvious.

      If you know the wheel speed and the entry quadrant of the ball then you can calculate the probability of the resulting quadrant.

      Since the table is laid out in numerical order, with groupings that do not allow betting on wheel sectors, you have to quickly spread chips across the numbers that this system selects.

      This must all be done very quickly. It has been done before without the phoone/camera - but yoy still need a spotter to communicate with the person placing the chips.

      Three things that make this a short term proposition - you need a spotter and a gambler and a covert means of communication , you need to have the ammo to bet consistently for a long time, it is easy to detect - start winning consistently at roulette and a lot of eyes will be watching.

  9. Bringing Down the house by scrimpygamer · · Score: 5, Informative

    Anyone ever read the book "Bringing Down the House" by Ben Mezrich? It's an excellent read and follows the theme of this story (people beating the casino / gambling system). I think it's a little bit more sophisticated in that the characters in the book were more involved in social engineering / hacking and weren't reliant on machines to help accomplish their goal. Might be offtopic but I thought people might like to read it. I really enjoyed it :)

    --
    - I never know what to write for these things... -
  10. hungarians by boldi · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Actually their said one beutyful girl was from Hungary with two serb guys. They said they used a mobile-shaped laser-scanning device, but they don't know if it is prohibited.

    http://index.hu/tech/tudomany/ritz040323/
    in hungarian.

    Later they said, that this device cannot exist, as such a device would be least a pc large and needs a calibration of some hours and at least NASA technique to make it.

    So at last, they said, that there are a number of people who actually can figure out what is the winning number from the spinning of the wheel by her own eye.

    The article also mentions, that after all, they don't really need to now the EXACT target of the ball, if they can close out 2 numbers, they can earn an average of 3% per round.

    So anyway, it's a weird weird story with SCI-FI elements...

  11. Monty Python anyone? by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 2, Funny

    Two Serbian men, aged 38 and 33, and a Hungarian woman aged 32 have been released on bail until 30 March.

    Well, if she hadn't been arrested for cheating at the casino, she probably would have been arrested at the tobacconist anyway...

    --
    "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
  12. Well you know one thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    British gambling laws from 1845 are currently in the process of being redrafted to bring them up to date with 21st Century gaming.

    I bet it's illegal to duel in the casino & you have to leave your hired help in the coat room.

  13. Idiots. by Coryoth · · Score: 4, Interesting

    You don't win big when you've got a good scam like that. It's tempting, but really, you just shouldn't do it, it's a dead give away.

    Worst case I ever heard of: A guy who had worked on PNRGs for casinos (yes, way back when such things were deemed good enough) decided to cash in, so he got together with a friend and wrote a quick program to sync in the the PRNG given a reasonable number of inputs. The PRNGs were mostly (and still are sometimes!) used for the keno games. He had his friend up in the hotel room with a laptop, and phoned up the numbers from a few rounds of keno. They got what seemed to be a reasonable sync, so he put a massive amount of cash predicting the next 10 numbers in order (which has stupendous returns (naturally)). Bang, up come all 10 numbers, in order. The police arrested his accomplice in the hotel room about 10 minutes later...

    Jedidiah.

    1. Re:Idiots. by LostCluster · · Score: 4, Informative

      One of the key elements of the MIT Blackjack scheme was that taken as individuals, each member of the team behaved like a typical casino customer. The spotters played a consistant value at the tables they were playing. When they spotted good cards due, instead of increasing their own bets like an individual counter would, they signaled for a "whale player" to come in and make a few big bets, which is what rich people tend to do at a casino as well.

      Any analysis looking for individual card counters would turn up nothing interesting going on... and trying to determine that a team was in play posed the problem of identifying team members while there was noise from other casino customers moving through the same tables.

    2. Re:Idiots. by Coryoth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, no, it amounted to a crime because basically they effectively sold the casinos a product saying "Don't worry, this won't get hacked, it's solid", and then used their inside knowledge to hack it themselves. This amounted to defrauding the casinos - little better than an online retailer saying "don't worry, we'll keep your credit card information safe" and then promptly maxing out the credit cards of anyone who shops there. I imagine you would want to see law enforcement involved with any online retailer that did that. Just because the victim here happens to be a massively rich, morally questionable company doesn't mean they are not a victim, and don't deserve to be protected by the same laws as everyone else.

      Jedidiah.

    3. Re:Idiots. by Sparr0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      To whom did they break confidentiality? Assuming they both worked at the company, and that they shared their program with no one else, they did not break confidentiality by simply USING said knowledge. And, as to fraud, where? I see no fraud here. There is no promise of stupidity when entering a casino, if you can win then you should.

  14. Eudaemonic Pie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    A group of students from Santa Cruz solved the physics of roulette back in the 1970's. See the Book (amazon.com).

  15. Eudaemonic Pie not Bringing Down the house by HughsOnFirst · · Score: 5, Informative

    The book you want to read is "eudaemonic pie"
    It's about some kids who did this back in the 70s.
    The article interviewed one of them.
    Roulette isn't random, you have to have a real ball released at a real time and place at a real velocity.
    Same for the wheel.

  16. A friend of mine had a job at the casino by melted · · Score: 4, Interesting

    And guess what, he was the guy who throws the ball. He says that he could throw the ball with such a precision that it would fall within a very small range of numbers from the target and most of the time it would fall onto whatever number he wanted. There are at least a few folks like this in any casino. Floor manager brings them in when someone starts winning REAL big to "reduce the odds".

    He said the only way to win on roulette more or less reliably is to play against the guy who has more money than you. If the guy selects some numbers or colors, put your money onto opposite colors and numbers that are far from his numbers if possible. The guy will throw a ball in such a way as to screw the guy who put the most money into the game. :-)

    1. Re:A friend of mine had a job at the casino by chezmarshall · · Score: 4, Informative
      And guess what, he was the guy who throws the ball. He says that he could throw the ball with such a precision that it would fall within a very small range of numbers from the target and most of the time it would fall onto whatever number he wanted. There are at least a few folks like this in any casino. Floor manager brings them in when someone starts winning REAL big to "reduce the odds".

      Utter, utter bullshit.

      First, there are metal studs on the wheel into which the ball occasionally runs. These pop the ball up a little bit and cause it to run down to the numbers more quickly.

      Secondly, the ball is launched before betting begins. Unless the mark always bets on the same numbers, how is the dealer supposed to know on what number to put the ball?

      A casino has nearly guaranteed profit, and lots of it, from a perfectly honest wheel. Every bet available has a house edge of 5.26%. Why would you cheat the guy who is "winning REAL big" when you can chip away at his winnings gradually perfectly legally?

      Finally, the last place a casino would put such a person is anywhere near a roulette wheel. Such a person could have a confederate making bets on pre-selected numbers in a completely undetectable way.

  17. Re:Physics can solve anything if it has all the in by FyRE666 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you knew the starting positions and details about all of the activities that are going on in the bin, you could possibly solve for which ball is going to be the one selected.

    Unfortunately though, we live in an analogue World. It's impossible to specify the exact position of anything in relation to anything else ;-) So although you may be able to predict the positions of the balls over a very short space of time, the inaccuracies would mount until your predicted results bore no resemblance to reality...

  18. read "the eudaemonic pie" by thomas a. bass by drfireman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Thomas A. Bass wrote a pretty good book on this. I think it's out of print at the moment, but Amazon seems to list it as shipping, so who knows. It's called "The Eudaemonic Pie." It's a far better book than the recent Mezrich book on blackjack. The teams Mezrich describes were basically working some old and well-known techniques that they didn't themselves invent (despite Mezrich's heroic efforts to make them seem like geniuses). The folks described in the Bass book are much more interesting people, doing much more interesting things. The Bass book has good hack content, the Mezrich book has little if any.

    As an aside... If you really want to play an advantage game in a casino, try a game where you don't play against the house. Like poker.

    1. Re:read "the eudaemonic pie" by thomas a. bass by eclectro · · Score: 3, Informative

      Highly entertaining read. You can find if here

      This was done at the only time it could be done, as casinoes eventually caught on to others with "shoe computers". They were taken to a back room and their equipment "confiscated".

      You could actually buy shoe computers ready made for this purpose in the early eighties.

      Casinoes now (and have had for quite some time) equipment that can detect your shoe computer via the hash it generates. Also there are scramblers that generate an RF field that can cause computers to glitch.

      I believe the shoe computer in the book was based on the venerable 6502 microprocessor (at least at first anyway).

      Wearable computers are all descended from this.

      --
      Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
  19. Fuck Em by Monkelectric · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Does anyone have ANY sympathy for the gambling industry? Living within 100 miles of 8 or so indian casinos in southern california, I have seen first hand that gambling is as destructive as drugs, alcoholism and tobacco.

    --

    Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley

  20. Been done before in 1873 by niittyniemi · · Score: 5, Informative


    Beating the odds on a roulette wheel has been done before and was done most famously by "the man who broke the bank at Monte Carlo" Joseph Jaggers. He made $450,000 which in 1873 was a LOT of money.

    AFAIK in order to circumvent predicting the numbers by this method, the casinos regularly move the wheels from one table to another. The act of moving the wheel throws the predictors off aswell as changing any possible bias in the wheel.

    This newer technique seems better, although it seems that you have to know the coefficient of friction between ball and wheel which I suppose could vary enough between each wheel to throw of your calculations.

    --
    The Machine stops.
  21. Re:how is this possible? by shaunyb · · Score: 2, Informative

    the phone was (allegedly) hooked up to a machine outside the building. the information (speed of ball, speed of wheel, location of ball, etc) was passed to the machine, which made a prediction of the sector (not the actual slot) the ball would land in, and fed that sector back to the phone.

  22. The first wearable computer was invented to cheat by voodoo1man · · Score: 4, Informative

    at roulette, by Edward Thorp and Claude Shannon.

    --

    In the great CONS chain of life, you can either be the CAR or be in the CDR.

  23. Re:Tipping the odds ...(have billions of $?) by G4from128k · · Score: 4, Informative

    Remember, once you have a large enough amount of capital, any advantage over 50% is garaunteed to make you money.

    This is true, but you need to have amounts of money approaching or exceeding the capitalization of the casino (the ratio of the sizes is important). IIRC, big casinos are usually capitalized at over $10 billion to avoid the problem of losing streaks. With a only a slight advantage and a modest starting stake, too many random walks of bets end in gambler's ruin. And if you pick a tiny casino, then the most you can win is modest. (And if you pick any casino, they will throw you out if you win too much.)

    --
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
  24. Re:Physics can solve anything if it has all the in by mdwh2 · · Score: 3, Informative

    But you can't get all the information (uncertainty principle), and in any chaotic system, even small errors in the initial state will blow up exponentially.

  25. It's all about ball control... by jsinnema · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Ball Control

    Although no casino will admit to its existence and very few dealers will nod in acknowledgement, this method is very powerful and easy to disguise. One cannot deny that a roulette event is heavily influenced by a human dealer. After all, it is the dealer who kicks up the rotor speed and launches the little white ball isn't it? These actions definitely affect where the ball will land. And after years of repeatedly spinning, the dealer develops what athletes call "muscle memory" or a consistent delivery system. I will admit it to you right here, as someone who has dealt the game of roulette, SOME DEALERS CAN CONSCIOUSLY INFLUENCE THE RESULT OF THE GAME. There, I said it! I know that deflectors may knock a ball off its original course or the ball may spatter when it crosses onto the rotor and hits a pocket fret, but even if a skilled dealer could navigate around the heavily bet sectors on the wheel only 10% of the time, the casino's edge would be 100% for those spins! The house's edge would then be [(9) x 5.26% + (1) x 100.00%] all divided by 10. This averages out to a whooping 14.73 % edge! To further add to this dilemma, there is no way to prove that the dealer is trying to cheat you, unless you can read minds! My general observations have led me to believe that "male" roulette dealers are more territorial. If you begin to win steadily at their tables, they feel challenged and may spin against you... that is unless you're a shapely female wearing a low-cut dress. I've also seen first-generation immigrants working as dealers, who are staunchly loyal to their new employers. If the issue of ball control troubles you, you can simply wait for the dealer to spin before placing your bets. You might actually turn this technique in your favor. If you recognize a skillful dealer and can build a rapport with him or her, you may be able to exploit their ability. One way to induce a dealer into hitting your number is to bet a sector or continuous section on the rotor of say, five pockets. Place a toke out for the dealer on the number situated at the sector's center. The dealers seem to appreciate a crack at collecting 35 times their original toke if they exhibit some control. If they miss your center number by one or two pockets, then you still win on the neighbors contained in that sector.

    Source

  26. Odds by Lakedemon · · Score: 2, Funny

    We mathematicians made sure that the games in the casino would steal the customers blind, well with a quite high probability anyway.

    You can't win against maths (Any Teenager in any school knows that... ^_^).

    So, feel free to play if you want to get poorer...
    And feel free to cheat if you want to end up dead/in jail...

  27. Doesn't work. by Eevee · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's a classic suckers bet. You'll run out of money or hit the table limit eventually. This is where probability theory comes in handy.

  28. Re:Physics can solve anything if it has all the in by RogerWilco · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Your comment is only valid in a linear process. You always have some measuring error, if only the size of an atom. in a linear process this is no big problem as small measuring errors only give a small deviation in the result. In non-linear processes a small variation can have a large difference in the result. This behaviour described by chaos theory mathematics.
    The most famous example is the weather, were a butterfly flapping it's wings in the Amazone could theoretically cause a violent storm in Brittain. This mathematician in the first Jurassic parc film also tries to explain it, using drops flowing down from a hand.

    I think balls in a bin are a chaotic process.

    --
    RogerWilco the Adventurous Janitor
  29. Casino Hacking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The greatest hack I ever pulled off involved an online casino. The casino used a Java applet for the gaming - everything from Blackjack to slot machines. Bored on a weeknight, I downloaded the Java applet (JAR file) to my computer and used a java decompiler to restore the original source code. Unfortunately, the code was obfuscated, but what I found next surprises me to this day. The java applet was using the client machine to generate the random numbers used in many of the games, namely the slot machine. I modified the code slightly to increase the chances of winning on the slot machine and then recompiled the code. There was a small problem, however. The code was written so that a response from the client to the server was sent indicating how much was bet, the payout and the winning combination (or hand). Thus, it was possible for them to statistically analyze my gamblings and calculate that I was winning more than I should have been. So instead of winning of the slot machine, I would win at Blackjack by modifying the code to display on screen what the dealer's cards were, and what the next card in the deck was. Thus, it was possible for me to decide on when to hit and when to stand. I will not tell you how much I won but I will tell you that I have never been caught.

    1. Re:Casino Hacking by blue_adept · · Score: 2, Funny

      no, I think the greatest hack you ever pulled off was getting 4 moderators to believe your bulls**t.

      --

      "Is this just useless, or is it expensive as well?"
  30. I don't think this is right... by evilviper · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I don't think it's right for casinos to do this.

    You might as well outlaw all ways that people try to give themselves better odds. Those who go to certain slot machines (that have been loosing for a long time) should be illegial, since it is a way people try to improve their odds.

    People playing blackjack should be thrown out if they stay at a pre-set number (eg. 17 or 18).

    My point is that it should not be illegial to beat the house... But that seems to be the way it is. There is no consistency in the rules of what is and is not acceptible at a casion, EXCEPT that you are doing something wrong if you win.

    Counting cards with a computer could be reasonably considered illegial, but how about those that do so without computer assistance?

    People should be able to sue a casio that throws them out (when they are winning) without any proof that they are cheating.

    --
    Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  31. You can still bet after the ball is released? by jayveekay · · Score: 2, Interesting
    cell phones [...] used to determine the ball's speed if buttons on the phones were pressed when the ball was released and then after one revolution

    As a non-gambler, I know nothing about how roulette is played. From the article it seems to imply that you can wait for the ball to be released, observe the course of ball and wheel, do the math to predict the outcome, and then place your bet. Is that correct, or have I misunderstood? Common sense would seem to require that all bets be placed prior to the ball and wheel being put in (randomized) motion to prevent just that sort of thing.

    Does a horse track still take bets as the steeds enter the final stretch?

    1. Re:You can still bet after the ball is released? by jsinnema · · Score: 2, Informative

      Does a horse track still take bets as the steeds enter the final stretch?

      Probably the most common form of player cheating and the easiest to attempt is a method called "past posting". This technique originated at the racetracks some years back.

      As soon as a winning horse was evident (well in the lead), the bettor would hurry to the ticket window and place a bet on that horse. Likewise with roulette, when the ball comes in for its final landing, the dealer will look down, for a moment, to see what the winning number is. At that instant, a player with a keen eye and adroit hand can place or move his bet to the winning number. Games run by one dealer are most susceptible to this form of chicanery. The cheat may remove losing bets in part or in whole, place winning bets or switch losers onto the winning number. One example would be a right-handed player standing at the center of the table and betting on "black." Of the even-money wagers, black and red are the only ones that are adjacent to each other. If black comes in then great! He'll relax and wait for his pay off. If "red" comes up, he'll lean over the table and very quickly and precisely tap his bet from black over to red in a fraction of a second. This stratagem requires nerves of steel and a quick, concise maneuver. The dealers and pit are well aware of this technique and are watching for it. The first time you get caught, you might escape by claiming ignorance. You didn't hear the dealer say "No more bets." After that, you're asking for a security escort to a back room!

      Source

    2. Re:You can still bet after the ball is released? by phillymjs · · Score: 2, Informative

      You can still place bets for a brief period after the ball is in motion-- until I read the article I didn't know it was until the ball went around the wheel three times. I've never been to a casino except the ones in Atlantic City, NJ, and there the croupier verbally announces when no more bets can be placed for the current spin and sweeps his/her arm over the table for the hearing impaired (and probably for the security cams, too). If anybody tosses a chip on the table after that, it doesn't count.

      When the ball comes to rest on a number, the croupier places a marker on the chips resting on that number to prevent anyone from placing more chips on the winner.

      ~Philly

  32. Laws to protect obsolete business by Sloppy · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Will it be illegal for people with "seeing aids" to gamble in a casino?
    The problem is that any of this "cheating" is illegal at all. Gambling is based on the premise of lacking information, but technology is making information easier to get.

    So what we have here are laws that are designed to protect an obsolete business model from technology. And yet: these laws have nothing to do with protecting anyone from force or fraud.

    Wait a minute .. why isn't it fraud?

    It's not fraud because the little gambler never asserted that he promises to remain stupid and not make use of information, or to not do anything that will help him. (What's next, are you going to make it illegal to cross your fingers and pray?) It's not like the other consenting partner in the gamble, isn't making use of a shitload of information and technology against him. And it isn't as though the other partner doesn't doesn't already have odds on their side. So the very premise that 'fairness' has somehow been compromised, is laughable.

    The fact is: some forms of gambling have been made obsolete, and we're propping them up with legislation. That doesn't smell good, to me. And it sets a really lousy precedent. If gambling can be propped up, then other industries can be, too.

    --
    As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
  33. Re:Physics can solve anything if it has all the in by LostCluster · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yes, but given the odds paid in this game, if any player can sucessfully predict any three spots where the ball won't land, they will have done enough to create a player advantage.

  34. Re:Physics can solve anything if it has all the in by the_twisted_pair · · Score: 2, Funny

    Corollary: it's possible to derive an easily-memorized algorithm for consistently beating the House at Roulette... that only works for spherical cows in a vacuum.

  35. Information and games of 'skill' by The+Monster · · Score: 4, Interesting
    the casino can avoid prediction, by simply spinning the wheel faster
    Here's the problem in a nutshell:
    The whole calculation would need to have been completed in just a few seconds, as the dealer cuts off betting after the ball has rolled three times around the wheel.
    If the casino would change this rule ever so slightly, and cut off betting before the ball is released, there would be no way anyone could predict where the ball would go. Casinos don't want to do this, however, because it slows down the action, reducing the rate at which money can be extracted from the customers, and quite possibly the interest in the game. Perhaps cutting off at two revolutions would be a good compromise?

    Historical quirk: I live in Kansas City, KS. Across the state line in MO there are riverboat casinos that were originally approved under the language that mentioned 'games of skill'. At that time, video draw poker was legal, because of the skill involved in deciding which cards to hold, and which to discard, but not the run-of-the-mill slots (which have since been allowed by changes in the law). At that time, this method of winning at roulette, or card counting at the blackjack table, could not have been opposed by the casinos because they had to maintain the legal theory that skill was involved in these games. The boats in MO quickly adopted rules for the number of decks in the shoe, how far into it a reshuffle is done, and the delta between minimum and maximum bets, so as to make counting irrelevant. I believe those rules remain in effect today...

    ...because it's easier to just make the method of 'cheating' ineffective than to try to figure out who's doing it.

    --

    [100% ISO 646 Compliant]
    SVM, ERGO MONSTRO.

    1. Re:Information and games of 'skill' by sholden · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If the casino would change this rule ever so slightly, and cut off betting before the ball is released, there would be no way anyone could predict where the ball would go. Casinos don't want to do this, however, because it slows down the action, reducing the rate at which money can be extracted from the customers, and quite possibly the interest in the game

      It would also allow the casino to "cheat". They know the speed the wheel is spinning and they choose where the ball is released, so using the same technique as the "cheaters" (well solving for a different unknown - but they can precompute everything since they control the inputs) they can release the ball to minimise their gains.

      I suspect the authorities that monitor things like machine odds would have issues with that.

  36. Card Counting is mostly Bunk by ms139us · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Disclaimer: My ex-wife is a blackjack dealer.

    Card counting, and the computer simulations used to justify it, fail in two fatal ways:

    1. They assume a random distribution of the cards at shuffle. This is so far from the truth it is unreal. Each casino has a different way to shuffle the shoe. It does redistribute the cards, but it is not at all random.

    Since casino has its own shuffle any strategy will be casino-specific. The distribution of high and low cards gets slowly shifted at each shuffle. At the beginning of the day every deck is in a pre-set order. Each shuffle modifies that order in a predictable way. If you have a card counting strategy, it would be best to include, as part of your strategy, the number of times a shoe has been shuffled. When they break open new decks of cards, the shuffle count starts anew.

    2. They assume that the dealer is neutral. This is, at best, naive. The dealer will break a table to run off obnoxious guests and to make room for players that tip well. The dealer will reward players that do tip well. Can't be done legally? Think again.

    Any experienced dealer will tell you that a shoe has a "flow" to it. The shoe will either be rewarding the house or the players. When the dealer shuffles the cards, they can either shuffle in a way that generally preserves the flow or shuffle in a way that generally reverses the flow. This does not work 100% of the time, but it does work.

    The dealer cannot target a particular player, but they can target the table as a whole.

    Got a dickhead at your table? Watch out! The dealer will break him to make him go away. The house will take all of your money, too.

    Is everybody at the table nice, cool, and tipping the dealer and waitresses well? Keep it up and watch your fortunes multiply.

    Is the table down (losing money) for the shift? Better leave, because the pit boss gets in trouble when this happens, so he will lean on the dealers to raise some cash for the table.

    Is it the end of the night and the dealers want to close the table, but you are persistent and wish to play? Get ready to lose your bankroll at a breathtaking rate.

    When a new dealer comes to the table, he or she will generally ask how the game is going. They are trying to ascertain the flow of the current shoe. Sometimes when you lose a hand, they will tell you, "Just wait until the next shoe, it will be better." They are telling you that the shoe flow is favoring the house and they will attempt to reverse it at the shuffle. While waiting for the current shoe to run out, bet low (to keep from losing too much) and tip well (so the dealer doesn't change his mind).

    If you don't believe this, just go to a set of blackjack tables and watch for a while.

    1. Re:Card Counting is mostly Bunk by H310iSe · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Anyone who talks about gambling and 'flows' raises my warning bells - sensing the flow, or finding patterns, in what is essentially a chaotic system is part of what ppl like about gambling, and a strident belief in one's flow sensing abilities is part of the reason why ppl loose so much money.

      Still, interesting story... back jack dealers can feel a flow of a deck for or against the house and can change that flow with specific shuffles? You have to find something to back this up, it's just too fantastic. But very cool sounding none the less.

      --
      closed minded is as closed minded does
    2. Re:Card Counting is mostly Bunk by the.pornlord · · Score: 5, Informative

      This post is mostly bunk. If your ex-wife was really a blackjack dealer, she was a truly clueless one.

      They assume a random distribution of the cards at shuffle. This is so far from the truth it is unreal. Each casino has a different way to shuffle the shoe. It does redistribute the cards, but it is not at all random. Since casino has its own shuffle any strategy will be casino-specific. The distribution of high and low cards gets slowly shifted at each shuffle. At the beginning of the day every deck is in a pre-set order. Each shuffle modifies that order in a predictable way. If you have a card counting strategy, it would be best to include, as part of your strategy, the number of times a shoe has been shuffled. When they break open new decks of cards, the shuffle count starts anew.

      First off: shuffle tracking and card counting are two separate matters. Shuffle tracking identifies high and low card slugs, by counting the show, and then tracks those slugs through the shuffle in order to take advantage of them. Card counting is a mathematical system to keep track of how many high/low/neutral cards have come out of the shoe (depending on the system). Then, using this running count and the remainder of cards left in the shoe a card counter can determine the advantage at that moment, wheter for the player or house, and adjust his betting strategy. When a dealer shuffle and a new shoe begins, all of the cards have been put back in, and the count starts again. It doesn't matter how many times, or what way this deck has been shuffled.

      Any experienced dealer will tell you that a shoe has a "flow" to it. The shoe will either be rewarding the house or the players. When the dealer shuffles the cards, they can either shuffle in a way that generally preserves the flow or shuffle in a way that generally reverses the flow. This does not work 100% of the time, but it does work.

      Really, and what is exactly this flow? A slug of high cards, or is it just a bunch of good Karma on the cards? How exactly does this dealer ex-wife of yours shuffle cards in order to maintain "the flow". I, and many other gaming professionals, would be very interested to learn more about maintaining "the flow" of a shoe during a blackjack shuffle.

      The dealer cannot target a particular player, but they can target the table as a whole.

      Again, I would really like to learn this trick. I have yet so any demonstatable techniques for a dealer to target a table so that they all lose. Does she summon the goddess Rita who will smite all these nasty players, or does she just send some bad Karma their way?
      Sorry if I am so sarcastic, but these are just ridiculous old wives tales, akin to if she floats, shes a witch!!!

  37. In other news... by bartwol · · Score: 5, Funny
    "This technique was not new, and as I recall was the plot of a movie once."
    In other news, a team of three people were instantaneously transported from Teaneck, New Jersey to Istanbul, Turkey. Most onlookers were unimpressed, having seen this technology in use for years on Star Trek.

    Sheesh.

    <bart

  38. Las Vegas by towzzer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Last time i went to vegas, the dealer cut off betting before the spin, according to this article the betting is cut off after 3 rotations. So basically the method I observed stops any prediction based cheating at all

  39. A Patch For This Exploit by John+Hasler · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Give the croupier a dozen or so balls of varying density and elasticity but identical appearance. Have him select one at random for each game.

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  40. Not quite... by the_twisted_pair · · Score: 2, Funny

    ..but the new rules will limit the size of countries you can subjugate. It also limits Britain to colouring no more that 40% of the Globe pink.

  41. You can hack with cable TV games too... by SmackCrackandPot · · Score: 3, Interesting

    You can also hack many of those games that are available on satellite/cable networks. In those games where the entire game state is displayed on the screen at the same time, it's possible to grab a frame off the screen, analyze it (convert the screen image into a logical representation), run it through an emulator and use a small amount of AI to find the optimum solution. At the very least, you avoid having to fork out money every time you want to play the game. The real benefit is when there is a prize. Then you only need to play the game twice (first time to get the levels, second time to enter the optimum solution) to get a return for your money.

  42. Hierarchy of jurisdiction in the United States by tepples · · Score: 2, Informative

    Clarification for the record:

    The U.S. Congress oversees regulation of interstate commerce and those aspects of commerce within states that interstate businesses' lobbyists claim interfere with interstate commerce. The states such as Nevada regulate commerce within a state, and states can delegate responsibility for specific areas to the individual counties or cities within a state. Thus, casinos in Las Vegas have to follow three layers of law: federal law, Nevada law, and Vegas law.

  43. Boohooooo! by Skwirl · · Score: 3, Funny
    It's no longer equal footing, and the casino is going to be ripped off.

    Oh, please, won't someone think of the casinos!?!
  44. Casinos are the suxx0rz!!!11111 by rice_burners_suck · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Casinos suck. As long as you're in there losing money, everything's ok. But the minute you earn something, they take you into some office and tell you that they exercise the right to refuse service to you, and then you're kicked out. Hey, that's real fair, isn't it?

    Fscking casinos.

  45. (-1, dorky) by c.emmertfoster · · Score: 4, Funny

    Bah, the solution is obvious. The casinos just need to start using subatomic particles as Roulette balls, so that you would have to build a Heisenberg Compensator to cheat like this.

    --
    We can neither love nor pity nor forgive. If you make a slip in handling us you die!
  46. The Honeymoon Machine by a.ameri · · Score: 2, Informative

    This technique was not new, and as I recall was the plot of a movie once

    Yes, that movie is actually one of my favorite classical comedies. It's called The Hoenymoon Machine starring Steve McQueen. The movie tells the story of three navy men who develop a scheme to win at the roulette tables in a Venice casino. At first, their plan goes off without a hitch until Navy Admiral Fitch gets involved and suspects an invasion. It only complicates things that McQueen is dating the Admiral's daughter. Ofcourse, it's a 60s romantical comedy, so in the end everything goes fine and no know gets hurt or jailed or anything.

    The Navy officers in the movie actually use a Radar scaner, and a phone to perdict how to win in the roulette. Considering that these guys that are being busted in the UK also more or less used the same technology, I wonder if they actualy got the idea from this movie.

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    -- /* Those who don't underestand Unix, are condemned to reinvent it poorly */
  47. Re:The technology involved... by John+Hasler · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Whereas in Las Vegas it is pretty much unheard of. The casinos are owned by entertainment conglomerates, not the mafia. They call the police on cheaters or just throw them out. They understand that the bad pr from mafia-style behavior would cost them far more than the paltry few millions cheaters carry off each year. To the executives of these companies anything less than a billion dollars is not a "large sum of money".

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  48. Re: Physics can solve anything if it has all th... by gidds · · Score: 2, Informative
    I think you're confusing two things here.

    QM does indeed throw in a level of uncertainty. No-one's quite sure what effect that uncertainty has on the large-scale world; it seems that quantum effects generally get lost when summing over the large numbers of particles we humans deal with. (Unless we do something clever to expose them -- hence lasers, silicon chips, &c.)

    But chaos theory is something else. A chaotic system is still perfectly predictable if you know the starting positions and velocities with total accuracy. Instead, chaos theory looks at what happens when you don't know them; it describes how the initial tiny inaccuracies can get larger and larger until they dominate.

    So systems like the weather are unpredictable mainly because we can't measure the conditions perfectly, regardless of whether the universe is predictable or not.

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    Ceterum censeo subscriptionem esse delendam.

  49. Re:Casino games ... by bezza · · Score: 2, Insightful

    People who say "They are taxes for people who are bad at math" have no understanding of the concept of oppotunity costs or economics. Slashdotters seem to overuse this comment...perhaps to make them feel superior?

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    WARNING: This sig does not contain a joke
  50. Re:My theory of roulette by bellings · · Score: 2, Informative

    let's say bet size range is 25-400$
    you need about 100$


    Wouldn't you need about $775 dollars to do this?

    At any rate, someone else has already pointed out you have about a 1 in 24 chance of losing all $775 and a 23 in 24 chance of gaining $25.

    If you repeat the game four times in a row (to win $100), you'll increase your chances of losing $775 to about 15.4%, or around 3 in 20.

    So, If you walk into a casino with $775 twenty times, be prepared to extract about $1,800 from the casinos in twenty little chunks, but for the casinos to extract $2,225 from you in three big chunks.

    Don't worry about it too much, though. If you take a friend to twenty hollywood movies, you'll end up spending about the same. And, unless it's a really good movie, you probably won't enjoy it as much.

    --
    Slashdot is jumping the shark. I'm just driving the boat.
  51. Re:Physics can solve anything if it has all the in by sexecutioner · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Quantum uncertainty only becomes important at very small distances, very small energies, and very short timecales.

    You are correct about the uncertainty of the universe, but some things are *very* certain. The bouncing of balls in a bin is one of them.

    The poster above is correct, since this is a classical system. If you read in all the ball positions with an accurate sensor of some type (X-Ray tomography, like a CAT scan, comes to mind) and then solve the simulation numerically, taking into account gravity, air movement, collision dynamics, etc, etc, (all these things are very well understood for classical systems like this) and you can predict the fall of the balls.

  52. why is it? by mixtape5 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Utter, utter bullshit.

    First, there are metal studs on the wheel into which the ball occasionally runs. These pop the ball up a little bit and cause it to run down to the numbers more quickly.
    if this is such a factor, then the computer would definately not work at predicting the resting spot of the ball without the "studs" programmed in too, the article said nothing about studs programmed in. The Professor said that a good guess can be made from the velocity of the wheel the mass and speed of the ball. It is possible that a dealer could "aim" the ball where he wants it.

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    WoW: Scheod 70 orc warlock on Shadowmoon
  53. Re:Are oppotunity costs similar to opportunity cos by The+Only+Druid · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Actually, the irony of your post is that your claim about gambling (that you always lose) belies your actual lack of understanding of the relevant concepts of economics here.

    Its obviously true that over a long enough period of time, all of the games in a casino have a probability spread that benefits the casino over the player (although some games are as low as 51% to the casino). However, the very same math shows us that at different times the results of gambling will favor either the casino or the gambler (that is, at point A the gambler may be low, at B the gambler be high, whereas at C he's way down). The real trick to gambling (and I know, incidentally, two men who are professional poker players, i.e. they make all their income gambling) is to recognize when you're too deep in to recoop your losses (and thus, to bail out), but also to recognize when you're sufficiently high up so that you're statistically likely not to get any better. The good gamblers know how to quit, and in doing so they ride the same probabilities that the casino does.

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    "Stumble before you crawl"
  54. Ideas/Criticism? by limekiller4 · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Quick, some math and/or physics major tell me why stopwatch-ing some number of spins and averaging the center 50% mean wouldn't give you these values.

    For example, if you found these values for one rotation:

    2.4s
    2.8s
    2.4s
    2.2s
    2.0s
    1.9s
    2.6s
    2.3s

    ...you might order them:

    1.9s
    2.0s
    2.2s
    2.3s
    2.4s
    2.4s
    2.6s
    2.8s

    Drop the two extremes (I know I said 50%, sue me):

    2.0s
    2.2s
    2.3s
    2.4s
    2.4s
    2.6s

    Then average them to arrive at 2.65s.

    Wouldn't this eliminate the need to know the mass of the ball and the friction of the track?

    Couldn't you then just covertly cross reference the thrown speeds with the actual winning quadrant (1/2, 1/4, whatever) to get yourself a prediction matrix?

    I'm not trying to pretend that these are viable methods, I'm just thinking of them as they come into my head and thinking that there must be something wrong with 'em.

    Thanks in advance for the replies.

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    My .02,
    Limekiller
  55. Norm Packard by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 2, Informative
    Norm Packard, the physicist quoted in the article who assembled a team to do this in the 70s, later formed Prediction Company, a "quant" effort to predict the financial markets.

    The book The Eudaemonic Pie is about the roulette team,
    and the book The Predictors covers Prediction Company's exploits.

  56. Re:Casino games ... by gl4ss · · Score: 2, Interesting

    yeah I'm fully aware of that, that's why the "Not that it matters" remark.

    in the long run you will always lose, but roulette is a fine game in the sense that to some extend you can choose the risk(you can never make the probability go so that you'd end up winning in the long run though). playing for profit is of course quite fruitless, but with games like this you can extend the playing time you can get with certain amount of money(which, when playing for fun, is very important).

    we got a state protected firm running the casinos and betting, returning the profits to sports, culture & etc(with betting they can't provide as good return rate as some private strictly for profit would be able to but I don't really care, but people who bet often complain about that).

    of course some 'pro' losers are just playing on the internet now as a consequence.

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    world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
  57. Casinos LOVE this type of thing. by ljavelin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Casinos LOVE this type of thing.

    Why?

    Because the PRESS claims that with a little smarts, the average guy can beat the casino! If you're really smart and really quiet about it, you can beat 'em and become rich beyond your wildest dreams!

    Therefore, you get a lot of quasi-smart losers into the casinos, all who have the fantisy of "out-smarting Vegas". Those people proceed to lose all kinds of money as they "hone their smarts".

    This is exactly how casinos attract people who are "too smart" to waste their time gambling.

    Card counting, roulette prediction, psuedo-random numbers of elecontrics-based slot machines - they're all an ADVERTISEMENT designed to attract those who imagine that they're super-smart enough to tilt the odds. Of course, it simply isn't true.

    The casinos in Vegas would love you to come to Vegas and attempt to put your super-smart skills into action... just as long as other players don't see you "attempting to cheat" - the casinos don't want you to scare any other customers away.