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PDTP - The Best of Both FTP and BitTorrent?

ikewillis writes "For awhile I've been following the development of PDTP (Peer Distributed Transfer Protocol), which is trying to merge the concepts of FTP and BitTorrent. This sounds like it could be useful for apt-get repositories or other high demand FTP sites. It's designed to be used as part of scalable networks which could replace manual selection of FTP mirrors. It also supports a number of other nifty features like cryptographic file signatures. Isn't it about time we ditched FTP for something better?"

265 comments

  1. from the no-more-april-fools dept. by ackthpt · · Score: 4, Funny
    Too late! Tin Foil hat firmly in place!

    Next thing it'll be transmitting voice and pictures over radio waves... AS IF!

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    1. Re:from the no-more-april-fools dept. by LostCluster · · Score: 3, Funny

      Tin Foil hat firmly in place!

      How does this differ from any other day of the year?

    2. Re:from the no-more-april-fools dept. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i normally use kichin foil.

    3. Re:from the no-more-april-fools dept. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      About that comment about ditching FTP.... Should we also ditch ASCII, QWERTY keyboards, and well POSTIX since they are old too?

    4. Re:from the no-more-april-fools dept. by FictionPimp · · Score: 1

      ASCII, QWERTY keyboards I'm ok with ditching both of those. As long as the new keyboard layout lets me type faster. As for ASCII, thats really only good for making problems when you decide to make international versions of your software.

  2. This isn't fair... by LostCluster · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I feel sorry for these people. See, this isn't your typical slashdotting... It's a slashdotting that comes after eighteen consecutive nonsense stories being posted over twelve hours on the US April Fool's Day.

    So, their chance to build a reputation is going to be damaged by the fact that anybody reading Slashdot today has already given up on finding anything useful, and will be evaluating them as a joke that they're "not getting" rather than as a proposed networking scheme.

    Furthermore, the geek world is bored today by Slashdot's denial-of-normal-service throughout the day. So, once word leaks out that this is a real and normal story, they're going to get all of the pent up slashdotting force applied to their server.

    Simon, you should have started your set tonight with an NY Times article or two. That would have been a suitable transition between nonsense content and factual content, since NYT operates in that murky space and has a suitable web setup to absorb a larger-than-usual slashdotting. I'm sure the people at PDTP would have not minded at all if their moment in the sun had come an hour later tonight.

    1. Re:This isn't fair... by GPLDAN · · Score: 5, Funny

      Hey Cluster, you invented a new term that requires canonization. "Denial-of-normal".

      Submit it to wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_slang

    2. Re:This isn't fair... by eclectro · · Score: 4, Funny


      No way Dude!!1 Anyone can see that they have been working on this April fool's joke since last November!!

      --
      Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
    3. Re:This isn't fair... by GPLDAN · · Score: 0, Troll

      Following up to myself... what a day... "Denial-of-normal" -- A term invented on April Fool's Day 2004 by Slashdot member 'LostCluster'. A phenomenon where major news outlets on the web simply don't know when enough is enough and post bogus story after bogus story, in some lame attempt to be funny. Ingrating and ultimately tiresome, denial-of-normal causes many readers to stereotype the Internet as "a bunch of hoo-hah".

      For other examples of not knowing when to stop, and when a gag just isn't funny anymore, see all the films of Christopher Guest after 'This is Spinal Tap', up to and including 'A Mighty Wind'.

    4. Re:This isn't fair... by Sparky77 · · Score: 1

      anybody reading Slashdot today has already given up on finding anything useful

      Yes, but we're still reading right?

      --
      One bad monkey spoils the whole barrel.
    5. Re:This isn't fair... by LostCluster · · Score: 2, Informative

      At least you're giving me some credit for my quotes...The Reuters Wire used my words without mentioning my name earlier today.

    6. Re:This isn't fair... by Deraj+DeZine · · Score: 2, Funny

      Actually, I didn't RTFS, I just decided to try and find a humorous name that PDTP could stand for to get the +5, Funny that I need to live.

      --
      True story.
    7. Re:This isn't fair... by alan_dershowitz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      April Fool's day has only been around for about 400 years, it's time to start coping with the fact that it's not going away. You people sound like a senior citizen mad about loud fireworks on the fourth of july, or someone pissed that a Christmas walk has main street closed off.

    8. Re:This isn't fair... by LostCluster · · Score: 3, Funny

      You people sound like a senior citizen mad about loud fireworks on the fourth of july, or someone pissed that a Christmas walk has main street closed off.

      Do you know how much Andy Rooney gets paid?

    9. Re:This isn't fair... by plugger · · Score: 1

      Instant response from the site right now.

    10. Re:This isn't fair... by shadowbearer · · Score: 3, Funny

      Perpendicular?

      SB

      --
      It's old. The more humans I meet, the more I like my cats. At least they are honest.
    11. Re:This isn't fair... by DroopyStonx · · Score: 5, Interesting

      No kidding, today has been ridiculous.

      There's a point where it's funny, but then there's a point where it's really just overdone. I haven't even read half the stories posted, but it seems like they're all fake... and if they aren't, Slashdot is really ruining the credibility of some people. Not sure if the BSD on Gameboy is real or not, but if it is, who's gonna believe it?

      You don't see CNN taking the day off. "OSAMA BIN LADEN CAPTURED!!", you click the link and read a long drawn out story that COULD be true, but at the bottom: "...April Fools!"

      Karma to burn. *shrugs*

      --
      We have secretly replaced these Slashdot mods' sense of humor with a rusty nail. Let's see if they notice!!
    12. Re:This isn't fair... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Penisdickular

    13. Re:This isn't fair... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did I hear "Wolf! Wolf!"?

    14. Re:This isn't fair... by PacoTaco · · Score: 1

      Something's definitely not right. You spelled "ridiculous" correctly.

    15. Re:This isn't fair... by rice_burners_suck · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Denial of normal service... I like that.

      Others have stated that the bogusness of nearly all of /.'s content today may harm the reputation of some people. BSDs on Gameboy? PDTP? Gateway shutting down all stores? Which of these is/are true, if any at all?

      But what concerns me even more is this: Some people do not understand the /. community, and might not understand that much of the content here is bogus today. Therefore, there is the possibility of bogus information being propogated as correct information, and that has the potential to make a lot of people look bad.

      The one about UML Dating Patterns or whatever was good. That could have been a good April Fool's joke. In fact, I think /. could have been more sophisticated by preparing, over the year since last April Fool's, a really killer story, something that will totally blow peoples' minds... but only ONE story. Make it simple enough that it seems legitimate, but just humorous enough that someone might question their sanity. Now, most of the stories are true, one of them is false (or partly based on truth)... Which one is it? This might drive people into reading the linked sites, in an effort to figure out if they're legitimate or not, and in the process, they might learn about some products, like PDTP, that could be useful in the future. April Fools could, therefore, have constructive results, in addition to being funny.

      Or even funnier... make a story that looks TOTALLY BOGUS, but turns out to be 100% true.

      But overdoing it the way /. did today was just ridiculous. I even got a little too excited this morning and inserted a lot of explitives in my garbage posts under the garbage stories... But after a few minutes, it got old and I regretted it.

    16. Re:This isn't fair... by carcosa30 · · Score: 1

      Right, on CNN every day is April Fools.

      The difference is, they don't tell you when they're lying.

      --
      Intolerance for ambiguity is the mark of the authoritarian personality.
    17. Re:This isn't fair... by stor · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There's a point where it's funny, but then there's a point where it's really just overdone.

      Hang on...

      Don't they overdo it every year and isn't that part of the joke? Maybe not an April Fool's Joke but rather an April Troll? (Which is obviously more appropriate for a geek site)

      That's what I always assumed.

      Cheers
      Stor

      --
      "Yeah well there's a lot of stuff that should be, but isn't"
    18. Re:This isn't fair... by Doomdark · · Score: 1
      April Fool's day has only been around for about 400 years, it's time to start coping with the fact that it's not going away

      Oh Yeah? I wouldn't be so sure:

      It is official -- Netcraft is now confirming: Apri Fool's day is dying.
      You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict April Fool's day's future.
      ...
      --
      I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
    19. Re:This isn't fair... by aneurysm36 · · Score: 0

      And what (usually) happens to trolls around here? Thats right. We mod their annoying asses down.

      It still isnt funny, and its not interesting or amusing either.

      --
      ------ hi mom
    20. Re:This isn't fair... by ichimunki · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but prior to the advent of the internet April 1 required a bit of work. Now there's more April Fool's jokes than lame blogs! It's joke overload. Sometimes less is more, y'know. I mean, it's like everyone is trying to be The Onion all day on April 1. But why bother when The Onion is The Onion all the time? Good April Fool's jokes involve a high level of subtlety, planning, and a real good "gotcha" at the end. Most of what we're seeing on the net just don't qualify.

      --
      I do not have a signature
    21. Re:This isn't fair... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Praises be to God AllMighty for giving us FoxNews, the last bastillion of Christian Truth in an otherwise Sin-Drenched media circus of misinformation.

    22. Re:This isn't fair... by N1KO · · Score: 1

      The point of April Fool's is to... fool people. Not to act foolish.

  3. BitTorrent Mod That's Neophyte Friendly by chatooya · · Score: 4, Informative

    BannedMusic.org made a BitTorrent wrapper that installs the application and then automatically launches the download, they call it an "easy downloader" and have instructions and a script for sites that want to make their own. Makes it a *lot* easier for sites to give out big files to non-techy audiences.

    1. Re:BitTorrent Mod That's Neophyte Friendly by Vaevictis666 · · Score: 1

      Reminds me eerily of the previously mentioned method Blizzard is using for World of Warcraft beta distribution...

  4. Sigh.... by Jaysyn · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I really hope this one isn't a AF.

    Jaysyn

    --
    There is a war going on for your mind.
    1. Re:Sigh.... by Smitty825 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Heh...a few years ago, /. made an April fools joke about Python and Perl merging into a new language called "Parrot" Apparently, some people liked the idea, and started the project. I have no idea of its status, though :-(

      --

      Doh!
    2. Re:Sigh.... by Martin+Blank · · Score: 4, Informative

      Currently at v0.1.0, awaiting Something Big in Perl 6, it would seem.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    3. Re:Sigh.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Parrot appears to be alive and well here. Version 0.1.0 was released on Feb 29th.

    4. Re:Sigh.... by dr+bacardi · · Score: 1

      Hmmm... you don't don't *look* like Simon Cozens :)

    5. Re:Sigh.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      a few years ago, /. made an April fools joke about Python and Perl merging into a new language called "Parrot" Apparently, some people liked the idea, and started the project

      Not quite true. Some Perl and Python developers (primarily Simon Cozens) made a joke about a combined language called Parrot. Though they didn't say it explicitly, they combined things in a way that didn't work at all. Like Python's near lack of punctuation and Perl's abundance of it, in a way that made it look wrong to either group.

      The real Parrot project, started by the same people, is a virtual machine for scripted languages. So they could share some underlying VM/JIT code and maybe even APIs, but the languages are still very different. No Parrot language.

  5. You forgot one line: by Deraj+DeZine · · Score: 1

    I look forward to the community's response.

    --
    True story.
  6. apt-get, you say? by Deraj+DeZine · · Score: 4, Funny

    Quoth the Debian Troll:

    Even though the apt-get code is GPL'ed and therefore available for all to read, the majority of people miss a few subtle points in the source code. The assembly optimizations. The OpenGL hooks. The MP3 streaming capabilities. Instant messaging interfaces. Links to satellite tracking networks. I believe apt-get to be on par with such great open source works as the Linux kernel, Apache, and xbill. It is about the package format. It is about apt-get. It's about standing up and saying "Dammit, I'm sick of RPM not having any cluster management capabilities or Mac OS X Expose-like animations, I'm mad as hell AND I'M NOT TAKING IT ANY MORE!"
    --
    True story.
  7. raid by name773 · · Score: 4, Funny

    R.A.I.D. == redundant array of intolerable diversions
    or at least on april fool's day....

    1. Re:raid by krumms · · Score: 1

      Sounds almost like Slashdot. I never get shit done when I have access to the internet because of this place.

  8. PTFTP by DARKFORCE123 · · Score: 0, Troll
    Bah, PDTP!

    pttftp (PD + tftp ) that is where the action is at!

    A reliable peer network combined with an unreliable UDP. Pure gold.

  9. PDTP by Neo-Rio-101 · · Score: 1

    PDTP eh? Try saying that too quickly.... I can barely get my tongue around half these transfer protocol names.
    I wish people would mind their T's and P's.

    --
    READY.
    PRINT ""+-0
    1. Re:PDTP by Tumbleweed · · Score: 4, Funny

      "I am Bittorrentholio...I need PDTP for my Torrenthole!"

      "Heh heh heh heh...file transfers RULE!"

    2. Re:PDTP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Beavis and Butthead do America joke... for the ones not getting it...

  10. The concept is great, but... by baximus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...mirrors would need to be in sync at all times for this to work. Otherwise your PDTP client is only able to download from the mirrors that are in sync, or worse, will get some chunks from files that aren't up-to-date, causing problems.

    Unfortunately, it's (almost) impossible to mirror new files instantaneously, so mirrors are never all in sync, all the time.

    1. Re:The concept is great, but... by anthonyclark · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm assuming that you're going to raise that potential problem with the pdtp developers, right?

      Sorry, pet peeve is people kvetching about something on /. but not telling the developers.

      To fix this, perhaps they could mandate that mirrors copy a particular directory to a temporary location, then take the old directory offline for the few minutes it would take to copy the new files over. Or have a $RELEASE var that clients would ask for and get returned all files marked with that var.

      or something. ;-)

      --
      ----- Documentation is worth it just to be able to answer all your mail with 'RTFM' - Alan Cox.
    2. Re:The concept is great, but... by Martin+Blank · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Files (or file segments) could be matched up using hashes that ensure that the proper files are sought and grabbed. MD5 could provide the primary file hash, and then a faster hash could be used for individual segments. The hash could be calculated at the beginning of the segment transfer as part of the handshake process, then stored on the client box for comparison once the segment transfer is complete. If the hash matches, then it's saved and the system continues. If not, the segment is dropped and a new source is found, with an option to simply ignore anything from that host, either for that specific file or globally, at the user's option.

      PDTP networks could have synchronized user accounts (assuming the networks aren't too large) for priviledged file access, with periodic synchronization with other members upon account changes. Content might be another matter, but if a file hasn't completed transfer, then perhaps it would simply not be marked as available for open transfer.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    3. Re:The concept is great, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      when you're behind a firewall, bittorrent download speeds slow down tremendously.

    4. Re:The concept is great, but... by a_jay_may_say · · Score: 1

      kvetching ... or "How a google press release changed my life .. errr... vocabulary" :) Seriously, before yesterday, I hadn't heard of kvetch before..

    5. Re:The concept is great, but... by the_2nd_coming · · Score: 1

      easily solvable....

      if a mirror has a different parity than the their's..it is not used until it gets synced and parity is equal....

      you can also set it up so that when the main site maintainers update, that it sends a message to the mirrors and the mirrors begin updating automatically using an update protocol that give order to the machines to download so that the site does not use all its bandwidth to update a bunch of machines at once...and once the first tier of machines are updates...the next tier can begin downloading from the main site AND mirrors that have the parity check that passed, and so on.

      it is not a hard problem to solve really.

      --



      I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
    6. Re:The concept is great, but... by dalutong · · Score: 1

      That's just not true. If you say "download ftp.us.debian.org/pool/etc/etc/etc/gnaughty_blah_b lah_1.00001.deb then you will get the tracker for that file and you will only connect to people downloading that file. If you get the tracker on a site that hasn't been updated yet then you get the tracker for gnaughty 1.0. Same thing as with files today. If you download from a site that has been sync'd and i don't we get different files. in the current case it is the whole deb. with this it would be a tracker.

      --

      What comes first, finding a teacher or becoming a student?
    7. Re:The concept is great, but... by jhunsake · · Score: 1

      It's obvious that you didn't read about the project at all. I can't believe you got modded Insightful. Ooops, nevermind, I just remembered this is Slashdot.

    8. Re:The concept is great, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess what you'd have to have is a system of checkpoints, atomic updates and signatures for files... That way if you're getting file X.Y-2 you know it depends on the mirror having signature Beta so only the mirrors that have atomically updated to Beta will be in the selection pool, but foo-x.1 depends only signature Alpha, which Beta is known to supercede, can be grabbed from any Alpha signatured or Beta signatured host. Of course, this all relies on trusting the signatures, so you'd probably need to have them signed by the uploading mirror... Which creates a whole other set of messes to deal with... Interesting problem at least.

    9. Re:The concept is great, but... by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > ...mirrors would need to be in sync at all times for this to work.

      This could be solved with versioning, as long as any given file is always
      seeded/uploaded on the same server initially (say, on the server of the
      person who is publishing the file).

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    10. Re:The concept is great, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is this some kind of anti-shibbolith?

    11. Re:The concept is great, but... by alienmole · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I'm assuming that you're going to raise that potential problem with the pdtp developers, right?

      Sorry, pet peeve is people kvetching about something on /. but not telling the developers.

      If the PDTP developers haven't already thought of this, it's doubtful they're competent to develop such a system.
    12. Re:The concept is great, but... by tarcieri · · Score: 5, Informative
      Hello. I'm the designer of PDTP.
      ...mirrors would need to be in sync at all times for this to work. Otherwise your PDTP client is only able to download from the mirrors that are in sync, or worse, will get some chunks from files that aren't up-to-date, causing problems. Unfortunately, it's (almost) impossible to mirror new files instantaneously, so mirrors are never all in sync, all the time.
      I suggest you look at this page with graphic illustrations of PDTP networks for a better idea of how PDTP works. There is no concept of a "mirror" in a PDTP network. The Source Server is the central authority on all files being distributed over the network, and notifies all servers/piece proxies on the network whenever files become available or unavailable. Like BitTorrent, the network is largely self-sustaining, with clients uploading pieces to each other and verifying their integrity with MD5 or SHA1 checksums. Files are tracked on the network with integer keys, so if a file were altered its name would simply be mapped to a new key, and the entire network would be notified that the previous version is no longer available.
    13. Re:The concept is great, but... by dave420 · · Score: 1
      They mention cryptographic hashes and other buzzwords, and I'm sure that's the first thing they thought about when making this. I mean, it's the first thing in mind when developing any p2p software - guaranteeing the source has the same file you're trying to download.

      Also, bare in mind that bittorrent has error-checking, so it will immediately be able to tell that a file it's downloading is corrupted (or not the right one).

    14. Re:The concept is great, but... by MrNemesis · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't the out of date mirrors be able to update from the BT streams of the people downloading from the up to date mirrors?

      Kinda like a BitTorrent powered version of Rsync... *that* would be cool.

      --
      Moderation Total: -1 Troll, +3 Goat
    15. Re:The concept is great, but... by Fissure_FS2 · · Score: 1

      Personally, I think it might be wise to follow in the footsteps of Direct Connect and use Tiger Tree Hashing. That way, you can use the same algorithm for both the segments and the entire file. That is all.

      --
      My life's goal is to get a score of +3!
  11. think about that sentence: by Naikrovek · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Isn't it about time we ditched FTP for something better?

    Isn't it about time we ditched floppy disks for something better?

    Isn't it about time we ditched IDE drives for something better?

    Isn't it about time we ditched x86 for something better?

    Isn't it about time we ditched Microsoft Windows for something better?

    Isn't it about time we ditched CDs for something better?

    Isn't it about time we ditched telnet for something better?

    Isn't it about time we ditched CRTs for something better?

    Isn't it about time we ditched 20-year-old TV sets for something better?

    Isn't it about time we ditched COBOL for something better?

    Isn't it about time we ditched BASIC for something better?

    Isn't it about time we ditched SCO Unix for something better?

    Isn't it about time we ditched DOS for something better?

    Isn't it about time we ditched Dubya for something better?

    my point is that there is a lot of very old crap out there that should be replaces, but is going to get used and keep getting used for years to come.

    1. Re:think about that sentence: by red_kola · · Score: 0

      How long until an Apple zelot comes along?

    2. Re:think about that sentence: by Ziviyr · · Score: 1, Troll

      Seems to me telnet is virtually dead.
      Right up there with *BSD, but with less cheerleaders.

      --

      Someone set us up the bomb, so shine we are!
    3. Re:think about that sentence: by LostCluster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Isn't it about time we ditched floppy disks for something better?
      CD-RW

      Isn't it about time we ditched IDE drives for something better?
      SATA

      Isn't it about time we ditched x86 for something better?

      AMD

      Isn't it about time we ditched Microsoft Windows for something better?
      Linux

      Isn't it about time we ditched CDs for something better?
      DVDs

      Isn't it about time we ditched telnet for something better?
      SSH

      Isn't it about time we ditched CRTs for something better?
      LCDs

      Isn't it about time we ditched 20-year-old TV sets for something better?
      New TVs, available at your local stores.

      Isn't it about time we ditched COBOL for something better?
      Visual Basic.

      Isn't it about time we ditched BASIC for something better?
      Uhm... it's for beginners. We can't ditch the biginners...

      Isn't it about time we ditched SCO Unix for something better?
      Linux... we think.

      Isn't it about time we ditched DOS for something better?
      Windows XP

      Isn't it about time we ditched Dubya for something better?
      John Kerry

    4. Re:think about that sentence: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      flooding slashdot with this kind of comment is not useful, if you think these things arent good enough then start or fund a project you think that could replace at least ONE of these things. this would be useful.

    5. Re:think about that sentence: by Deraj+DeZine · · Score: 5, Funny

      Problems solved:

      Isn't it about time we ditched FTP for something better? HTTP
      Isn't it about time we ditched floppy disks for something better? Tape drives
      Isn't it about time we ditched IDE drives for something better? Cool, thin IDE cables
      Isn't it about time we ditched x86 for something better? x86-64
      Isn't it about time we ditched Microsoft Windows for something better? Windows XP
      Isn't it about time we ditched CDs for something better? Coasters
      Isn't it about time we ditched telnet for something better? Clear text passwords over HTTP
      Isn't it about time we ditched CRTs for something better? Incandescent light arrays
      Isn't it about time we ditched 20-year-old TV sets for something better? 19 year-old TV sets
      Isn't it about time we ditched COBOL for something better? FORTRAN
      Isn't it about time we ditched BASIC for something better? Power BASIC
      Isn't it about time we ditched SCO Unix for something better? SCO Linux
      Isn't it about time we ditched DOS for something better? Protected mode DOS
      Isn't it about time we ditched Dubya for something better? Jon Stewart
      --
      True story.
    6. Re:think about that sentence: by Alphanos · · Score: 1

      That is not a very good argument in favour of using less advanced systems. There are many valid arguments in favour of using what's known to work... proven reliability, difficulty of switching, even plain old tradition. However, stating that we shouldn't use something new because other older things are still in use is a pretty silly line of reasoning.

      --
      Alphanos
    7. Re:think about that sentence: by jcr · · Score: 1

      Well, I've ditched eleven of the dozen that you've mentioned.. Still buy CD's, though.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    8. Re:think about that sentence: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't it about time we ditched floppy disks for something better?
      Ditched.

      Isn't it about time we ditched IDE drives for something better?
      Ditched.

      Isn't it about time we ditched x86 for something better?
      Ditched.

      Isn't it about time we ditched Microsoft Windows for something better?
      Ditched.

      Isn't it about time we ditched CDs for something better?
      Ditched.

      Isn't it about time we ditched telnet for something better?
      Ditched.

      Isn't it about time we ditched CRTs for something better?
      Ditched.

      Isn't it about time we ditched 20-year-old TV sets for something better?
      Ditched.

      Isn't it about time we ditched COBOL for something better?
      Ditched.

      Isn't it about time we ditched BASIC for something better?
      Ditched.

      Isn't it about time we ditched SCO Unix for something better?
      Ditched.

      Isn't it about time we ditched DOS for something better?
      Ditched.

      Isn't it about time we ditched Dubya for something better?
      Ditched.

      my point is that there is a lot of very old crap out there that is easy to ditch.

    9. Re:think about that sentence: by misleb · · Score: 1

      Bubya BETTER NOT be around for years to come.

      --
      "THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
    10. Re:think about that sentence: by alan_dershowitz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You made your point, but there's a disconnect between your point and why its relevant to the original statement. If someone said to me "isn't it time we ditched floppy disks for something better?" I'd probably say "yeah", not jump all over their ass because someone somewhere uses floppy disks.

    11. Re:think about that sentence: by M.C.+Hampster · · Score: 1

      Bubya BETTER NOT be around for years to come.

      Is that like some mad scientist created mixture of Bill Clinton and George W. Bush?

      --
      Forget the whales - save the babies.
    12. Re:think about that sentence: by B3ryllium · · Score: 1, Troll

      There's a difference between "dead" and "deprecated".

    13. Re:think about that sentence: by dresgarcia · · Score: 1

      I use telnet everysingle day at my office with APC this is mission critical to what we do. We also use minicom with a custom config file. . . the speed is so slow it barely can move the lines of text faster than you can read it. Mini com allows us to get into a server at a remote location if it drops to single user mode or for some reason can't get on the network. Minicom kicks in and lets you see what the computer is doing before it gets to grub/lilo even.

      These are OLD AND SLOW technologies but they ALMOST NEVER BREAK. The web dialogue I could use instead of telnet is slow and unreliable.

    14. Re:think about that sentence: by h2oliu · · Score: 1

      AAAAAAAAAARRRRRrrggghhh.

      Please don't every do that again. The mental image will haunt me for days.

      --
      Ok, I give up, why you?
    15. Re:think about that sentence: by merdark · · Score: 1

      Isn't it about time we ditched Microsoft Windows for something better?
      Linux


      This is more of a side-grade than an upgrade. Trade one set of problems for another. Plus, you get mascot that is on par with barny for lamenes!

      Isn't it about time we ditched SCO Unix for something better?
      Linux... we think.


      But SCO Unix has never been the defacto Unix. Who exactly is using this that it needs to be "ditched"??

    16. Re:think about that sentence: by jfdawes · · Score: 1

      Telnet is great for quickly debugging the output of an awful lot of things that read/generate [semi] human readable output.... like HTTP servers.

      telnet localhost 80
      GET /servlet/url.xml?blah=blah HTTP/1.1

    17. Re:think about that sentence: by naelurec · · Score: 1

      My take...

      Isn't it about time we ditched FTP for something better? SCP, SSH (fish:/), etc.. though a P2P FTPish setup would be cool.

      Isn't it about time we ditched floppy disks for something better? USB Memory Stick or perhaps CD-RW/DVD+RW

      Isn't it about time we ditched IDE drives for something better? SATA

      Isn't it about time we ditched x86 for something better? AMD64 .. perhaps PowerPC?

      Isn't it about time we ditched Microsoft Windows for something better? I like FreeBSD w/KDE :) and yes, it is better in many many ways.

      Isn't it about time we ditched CDs for something better? how about mp3 players? XM radio?

      Isn't it about time we ditched telnet for something better? if you haven't ditched telnet for SSH yet, tisk tisk.

      Isn't it about time we ditched CRTs for something better? LCDs all around.

      Isn't it about time we ditched 20-year-old TV sets for something better? HDTV.

      Isn't it about time we ditched COBOL for something better? C? C++? Perl? Python? Ruby? :)

      Isn't it about time we ditched BASIC for something better? Python without a second thought.

      Isn't it about time we ditched SCO Unix for something better? Linux?

      Isn't it about time we ditched DOS for something better? I think we already ditched DOS a while ago.

      Isn't it about time we ditched Dubya for something better? Oh come on.. he's GR-R-R-R-R-REAT! He can take complex international & domestic politics and simplify them so even a small child can understand --> Saddam = mad man, terrorist = bad, tax cut = good, flying in on an aircraft carrier = great photo op.. :)

    18. Re:think about that sentence: by Jeremi · · Score: 3, Funny

      Plus, you get mascot that is on par with barny for lamenes!

      I'll take an overweight penguin instead of an idiotic man in a butterfly suit any day...

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    19. Re:think about that sentence: by John+Starks · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What in God's name is wrong with x86? I hear this all the time. It's just like Slashdot's bizarre fascination with bashing X because it's old. But interestingly enough, X continues to thrive for the same reason x86 continues to thrive: it works, works today, and works with your old applications. The fastest desktop and workstation processors on the planet are x86.

      Ok, sure, CISC is dead, x86 is a convoluted mess, yada yada yada, but engineers have gotten around many of these problems with the instruction set, and compiler writers have gotten around the rest. There is absolutely no reason to drop x86 for something new at this point.

      And don't get me started about the political crap at the end. I find it pathetic that you have to inject your political propaganda into a post on a technical site about a new file transfer protocol. I don't care what candidate you support, that's just ridiculous. You're just an attention starved karma whore. It makes me sick.

    20. Re:think about that sentence: by jwkane · · Score: 1

      Or that damn paperclip. I don't care how cute-n-furry tux gets; he'll always be the coolest of the cool compared to clippy.

    21. Re:think about that sentence: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod parent Imaginary*-1 (-i)

    22. Re:think about that sentence: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      10-20 years from now mainstream computers and internet connections should be more than fast enough to make a gentoo style source distribution the easiest way to transmit software (yeah, if MS has it's way it will be .net byte-code but that's not the point)

      When we get there it won't matter much what kind of chip is in your box as long as you've got a suitable compiler. If that is where we are headed then the whole concept of backward binary compatability is destined for obsolescence.

    23. Re:think about that sentence: by forkazoo · · Score: 2, Funny

      Isn't it about time we ditched floppy disks for something better?
      CD-RW

      iPod used as FireWire disk.

      Isn't it about time we ditched IDE drives for something better?
      SATA

      Mmm... Tasty FireWire.

      Isn't it about time we ditched x86 for something better?
      AMD

      PowerPC

      Isn't it about time we ditched Microsoft Windows for something better?
      Linux

      Mac OS X

      Isn't it about time we ditched CDs for something better?
      DVDs

      Depends on context. iPod fills many uses of CD's. (music storage, data backup) Not software distribution. That's what DSL is for.

      Isn't it about time we ditched telnet for something better?
      SSH

      Yup. No argument here. I may be an Apple bigot, but I'm not *crazy.* No better way to convince somebody that things are okay than forwarding an X11 session over SSH, and using a web browser on your friend's computer. It buys you precious time until the local DNS servers refresh.

      Isn't it about time we ditched CRTs for something better?
      LCDs

      Bigger CRT's. Better color than LCD's, better motion, better value. slightly blurrier. Cheap. I picked up a used 19" Dell for 35 bucks not too long ago. My 21" Sun was a gift from somebody who didn't need it any more.

      Isn't it about time we ditched 20-year-old TV sets for something better?
      New TVs, available at your local stores.

      Dammit, the new TV's don't have wood panelling! I could always use a TV capture card, and watch TV on my 21" Sun monitor. Mmmmm 8 bit pallatted "Friends" on my Ultra1 over the network, using SSH forwarding, from my PPC box...

      Isn't it about time we ditched COBOL for something better?
      Visual Basic.


      Better than COBOL? WTF? Are you just stupid? None such exists! Maybe PL/1.

      Isn't it about time we ditched BASIC for something better?
      Uhm... it's for beginners. We can't ditch the biginners...

      HyperCard. I don't care if it's dead. All your base are belong to HyperCard. HyperCard will make you its bitch in ways even Romero couldn't have. BASIC is the mind killer. GOTO poisons the brains of would-be programmers.

      C for beginners without access to Hypercard. Something old. Starting newbies with Java is the worst idea in the history of the world. They have no idea what objects are, or how they work. With something like C, it's much easier to learn basic algorithms and data structures, and it's close enough to the machine that you get a sense that you know what's going on.

      Isn't it about time we ditched SCO Unix for something better?
      Linux... we think.

      This is one of those trick questions, like "Isn't it about time we stopped killing infants, and beating our wives, and parading naked seven year olds down the street?" The only possible answer is either "mu" or "no." "Yes" requires that we were previously using SCO UNIX. If anybody were using it, the company wouldn't have gotten bored and started doing crazy shit.

      Isn't it about time we ditched DOS for something better?
      Windows XP

      DOS kicks ass. If you ever need to do something with the parallel port in win XP, you need to write a kernel mode device driver and shit. Fuck that. All I want is god damned blinkenlights on my parallel port. All you need to do in DOS is outp(addr, data) to set the 8 data bits. Hell yeah. I'll take that shit any day.

      Everybody buys a PC for making parallel port blinkenlights, right?

      Isn't it about time we ditched Dubya for something better?
      John Kerry

      Steve Jobs!

    24. Re:think about that sentence: by merdark · · Score: 1

      Good point. I forgot about that dumb ad. Mind you that's for MSN, and the evil stupid satan paper clip is for office.

      Windows itself has the completely indifferent four colour paneled window thingy icon.

      The BSD mascot beats all hands down though. ;)

    25. Re:think about that sentence: by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > > Isn't it about time we ditched 20-year-old TV sets for something better?
      > New TVs, available at your local stores.

      Umm... isn't it about time we ditched the whole _concept of TV for something
      better? Oh, wait... some of us already have, and it's called the _internet_.

      > > Isn't it about time we ditched COBOL for something better?
      > Visual Basic.

      Wow. I have, umm, mixed feelings about whether VB is better than COBOL. I
      mean, I took a COBOL class in college, and it was, like, bad, but then, I
      also took a VB class, and it was, like, bad...

      > > Isn't it about time we ditched BASIC for something better?
      > Uhm... it's for beginners. We can't ditch the biginners...

      There are other languages for beginners. Not that BASIC as really bad per
      se (hey, I learned to program using BASIC...), but it's not the only option.

      > > Isn't it about time we ditched Dubya for something better?
      > John Kerry

      Ugh. Can't the Dems do better than him? (Okay, so he seems more alive
      than Gore, so I guess that could count as an improvement...)

      My dad thinks the Dems deliberately avoided putting any viable candidate on
      their ticket this time, because they want Bush to win so they can run Hillary
      next time against Cheney. He says they figured running her against Bush would
      be too risky, she might lose, and it would poison her career. Well, that's
      what my dad says. Maybe he's finally lost it, I don't know, he is starting
      to get old... but I've heard much crazier theories.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    26. Re:think about that sentence: by drinkypoo · · Score: 1
      I had a hard time getting the idea of object oriented programming, and I still have yet to actually do any, largely because I'm clueless about data structures and haven't, uh, got around to learning about them. I have a vague idea of the concepts but no experience. Anyway, I think that the reason I had a hard time getting the idea was that I had preconceived notions, and much to unlearn. It might be easier to teach people how to approach programming from an object oriented perspective from the beginning.

      Of the languages which I have used to any degree whatsoever (x86 assembler, perl, assorted shell scripting languages, C, assorted BASICs, LOGO, pascal) I think the best beginner language was LOGO. It was on Apple ][ and later IBM PcJr (funky-ass keyboards and all) and yet still a better introduction than anything I've messed with lately. And, it's very approachable due to the graphics aspect, yet still a reasonably structured language.

      I don't think that people should have to think too much about data types when first exposed to programming. It's cruel and unnecessary. This is the primary strength of BASIC. Incidentally if you have access to Amiga roms and disk images, or the real thing (preferable in some ways, except for the interlace headache) Amiga BASIC is really enjoyable. You do need 1MB CHIP RAM to use some of the commands, so if you get an early Amiga like a 1000 or 500, pay attention to this issue :)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    27. Re:think about that sentence: by mibus · · Score: 1

      Isn't it about time we ditched FTP for something better? - SFTP

      Isn't it about time we ditched floppy disks for something better? - email, USB keys

      Isn't it about time we ditched IDE drives for something better? - SATA (kinda IDE but hey)

      Isn't it about time we ditched x86 for something better? - PPC

      Isn't it about time we ditched Microsoft Windows for something better? - Linux

      Isn't it about time we ditched CDs for something better? - Email, DVD, etc.

      Isn't it about time we ditched telnet for something better? - SSH

      Isn't it about time we ditched CRTs for something better? - LCDs

      Isn't it about time we ditched 20-year-old TV sets for something better? - 36" Widescreen Philips HDTV

      Isn't it about time we ditched COBOL for something better? - Java, Python, ...

      Isn't it about time we ditched BASIC for something better? - Python

      Isn't it about time we ditched SCO Unix for something better? - Hahaha. SCO Linux?

      Isn't it about time we ditched DOS for something better? - Linux

      Isn't it about time we ditched Dubya for something better? - John Howard. Oh cr*p.

      Note - all but SATA are mine. SATA is my mate's.

    28. Re:think about that sentence: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't it about time we ditched 'ls' for something better?
      Isn't it about time we ditched 'bash' for something better?
      Isn't it about time we ditched 'unix' for something better?

      Sometimes theres nothing wrong with old tech!!
      FTP suffers from 1 problem. Clear text passwords.

      Yes you might say that passive/active ftp are a problem, but isnt the real problem there that the IPrange is shrinking so we NAT all computer all th time?

      Cleartext passwords sucks. Why not encrypt the network layer? Leave the FTP as it is? How about aroundrobin DNS, giving diffrent people diffrent IP-addresses for the same ftpserver? How about a distributed filesystem underneath the ftpserver? Coda? .. All this sound like a mess? Yes sometimes theres better solutions.. but the better solution is not always to throw out the old and in with the new.

    29. Re:think about that sentence: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must get to hear a lot with such a dad :)

    30. Re:think about that sentence: by QuantumFTL · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >>Isn't it about time we ditched floppy disks for something better?
      >CD-RW
      Yeah, no one uses floppies for small files. Or bigger ones. Many people I know, including my family, don't have CD-RW or even CD-R.

      >>Isn't it about time we ditched IDE drives for something better?
      >SATA
      And where is this option on dell.com/apple.com etc? Can you buy this at walmart? That stuff is nice for high end servers but...

      >>Isn't it about time we ditched x86 for something better?
      >AMD
      So we went from x86 to... x86. Wow. And not to mention that AMD's doing everything they can to drag out x86 to 64 bits.

      >>Isn't it about time we ditched Microsoft Windows for something better?
      >Linux
      Right, with it's 10% market share or whatever on desktops, I wouldn't exactly call it "ditching."

      >>Isn't it about time we ditched CDs for something better?
      >DVDs
      No one listens to music on DVDs, and I'd like to ask you how much of your software comes on a single DVD instead of multiple CDs.

      >>Isn't it about time we ditched telnet for something better?
      >SSH
      This is about the only accurate thing in your entire post.

      >>Isn't it about time we ditched CRTs for something better?
      >LCDs
      Better??? The only thing better is their size and energy consumption. image quality is significantly worse, to the point that for hardcore photographic work they are simply unacceptable due to inability to be calibrated properly. They aren't as bright, and have a really annoying image persistence which is bad for gaming, movies etc. Not to mention how expensive they are, and how easily they break.

      >>Isn't it about time we ditched 20-year-old TV sets for something better?
      >New TVs, available at your local stores.
      Unless your area is fully up to spec, getting an HDTV doesn't do a lot of good. And the other TVs are the same old crap we've had for 20 years, but with different shaped remotes.

      >>Isn't it about time we ditched COBOL for something better?
      >Visual Basic.
      Eh... Visual Basic is similar I suppose but I'm not sure it's really aimed at the exact same niche.

      >>Isn't it about time we ditched BASIC for something better?
      >Uhm... it's for beginners. We can't ditch the biginners...
      Yes but introducing more graphical or process oriented programming, maybe even programming without side effects might be better tahn just giving them a language with all they syntax benefits of FORTRAN and not even half as powerful as ancient hypercard!

      Come to think of it, hypertalk is a much better beginner's language.

      >>Isn't it about time we ditched SCO Unix for something better?
      >Linux... we think.
      I don't know what the original poster had in mind about this. No comment.

      >>Isn't it about time we ditched DOS for something better?
      >Windows XP
      And what exactly is the market share of XP among windows users? There's still people using 98 out there!

      >>Isn't it about time we ditched Dubya for something better?
      >John Kerry
      Not only is the election over a half year off, but it remains to be seen that he could even do a better job. I mean, Dubya may not be the brightest guy (or even trustworthy) however he's at least predictable, whereas John Kerry has basiccally voted on both sides of every issue... does that guy stand for anything???

      Cheers,
      Justin Wick

    31. Re:think about that sentence: by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      "CD-RW"

      You can't use CD-RW like a floppy disk. It's not "random access writable". And you can only write a CD-RW so many times before you can't use it anymore...

      "AMD"

      AMD CPUs are x86.

      "Linux" ..............
      Are you serious? Just look at this story from a day ago! People were massively modding Linux down. They said Linux and open source software in general have the worst user interfaces possible. One guy declared Linux as a "failure" and even got modded up.
      Furthermore, in every story about Linux vulnerabilities, people jump out and say Linux is insecure, and get modded up.

      And now you suddenly jump out and say Linux is better than Windows?

      "DVDs"

      There are too many computer systems out there who don't have a DVD player. And DVD writers are still way too expensive.

      "SSH"

      Practically unheard of outside the Unix world.

      "LCDs"

      LCDs are way more expensive than CRTs.

      "Windows XP"

      Try running XP on that old 386.

    32. Re:think about that sentence: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Dubya may not be the brightest guy (or even trustworthy) however he's at least predictable, whereas John Kerry has basiccally voted on both sides of every issue... does that guy stand for anything???

      So if the election was between Adam and Satan, you'd vote Satan, because he's "predictable" and "stands for something", whereas Adam has been known to listen to both sides?

      You're crazy.

    33. Re:think about that sentence: by Krunch · · Score: 1

      What about netcat ?

      --
      No GNU has been Hurd during the making of this comment.
    34. Re:think about that sentence: by shish · · Score: 1

      Yes, but in typical open source fashion, I'll be waiting for you to send me the patches before I bother going into anything :P

      --
      I mod down anyone who says "I will be modded down for this", regardless of the rest of their comment
    35. Re:think about that sentence: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >SATA
      And where is this option on dell.com/apple.com etc?

      Actually, the Powermac G5s all come with SATA drives. It's not even an option, it's the base config. I'd be surprised if Dell didn't offer it too (can't be bothered to check their online store, hate the site).
      No one listens to music on DVDs, and I'd like to ask you how much of your software comes on a single DVD instead of multiple CDs.

      In fact DVD-audio is making inroads - people have 5.1 speaker setups for watching movies anyway, so you may as well sell them music for it.. As for software, it seems like an increasing number of new games for the Mac (apparently not an oxymoron anymore) are shipping only on DVD - C&C Generals, LOTR ROTK, UT2004 (I think). Any Mac that could play the game shipped stock with at least a DVD reader, so it makes sense - cheaper and more convenient than multiple CDs. And obviously PS2 and XBox have already adopted DVDs for game software. As DVD drives become commonplace in the PC market you'll see it there too.

      All of this subsequent discussion nicely misses the original poster's point, of course - it's not whether new technologies will become used, but whether the old ones will stick around for a very long time. They will.
    36. Re:think about that sentence: by dave1g · · Score: 1

      LOL when was the last time you wrote to a floppy or CD over 1000 times... and the real floppy killer is USB flash/pen/key/whatever drives.

    37. Re:think about that sentence: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Had to throw a political jab in there, how lame. Totally lost all credibility.

    38. Re:think about that sentence: by QuantumFTL · · Score: 1

      Actually, the Powermac G5s all come with SATA drives. It's not even an option, it's the base config. I'd be surprised if Dell didn't offer it too (can't be bothered to check their online store, hate the site).

      I stand corrected!

      Thanks,
      Justin

  12. It still doesn't answer a very important question by Gay+Nigger · · Score: 0, Insightful
    Why anybody use this if they essentially have to donate their bandwidth to the serving of some company's files? Doesn't making your customers pay for your bandwidth seem, oh, I dunno, shady and cheap?

    There are many places in the world where bandwidth is metered and charged for the amount of data transferred. Unfortunately, it looks like this was written by a bunch of Americans and college students who don't have to pay for their bandwidth usage and seem willfully ignorant of the entire rest of the world out there. I, for one, will not be sharing my bandwidth for something that should be provided by the file's source.

  13. piracy returns to ftp? by AssProphet · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Interesting... this could bring piracy back to the ftp world, rather than the emule appz or bittorrent world where it's easier to get caught.

    1. Re:piracy returns to ftp? by MoneyT · · Score: 1

      It left?

      --
      T Money
      World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
    2. Re:piracy returns to ftp? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well it didn't leave, but it definatly became less popular, because of all the work involved.

      you have to admit, bittorrent and emule are much easier.

    3. Re:piracy returns to ftp? by wantedman · · Score: 1

      As long as the asshats who run the ftp require a huge upload to download ratio, it won't be as popular as a system that doesn't, like Kazaa. :(

    4. Re:piracy returns to ftp? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the problem with most warez ftp sites is that they are admin'd by windows users. Though that stands to reason (I think), because, most of the warez are for windows.

      In my experience with these people, they don't know anything about it, and rarely are able to get a descent ftp service running, not to mention most are confounded at how to work their firewalls and open ports for ftp, and at that point if you start mentioning things like PORTS vs PASV their heads are in danger of exploding.

      It seems like all things that include windows and system administration in the same sentance, we need a protocol with an interface that includes a single button, of which clicking is completely optional, in order to correctly configure your service. I just doubt it will ever be. Not that any of this is really important.

      But I do think it would be pretty cool, if apt-get [4 rpms] could have community shared mirrors of freshrpms, kde-redhat, etc etc. Sounds like a cool idea.

    5. Re:piracy returns to ftp? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea beacuse its impossible to log IPs and file uploads/downloads for FTP. That has never been done and I don't think it ever could be. FTPs are done over the ethereal plane and we don't have any method for logging from that specific plane. Maybe one day, but not today or the near future.

    6. Re:piracy returns to ftp? by cubic6 · · Score: 1

      High upload/download ratios present a motivation to share or become a server. If you run a high-volume ftp site, you can get dozens of people bringing in stuff to get access, so they can download the stuff that other people brought to get access. It's an increasing system. With things like Kazaa, there's no intrinsic motivation to share, so the majority of people end up being leechers, which hurts the community.

      --
      Karma: Contrapositive
    7. Re:piracy returns to ftp? by wantedman · · Score: 1

      I understand the reasons, it's just I prefer systems which are semi-n00b friendly.

      Unlike most p2p systems, which share what you are obtaining / obtained, ftp requires you to find something new to upload. With even a small mature server, you'll run into a situation where everything that's accessable to a newbie is already uploaded or not wanted. If a newbie can't even get started, why would he want to become a server?

      Then you get people who are greedy and want a extremely small ratio, like 1:3 or even 1:2, because they want stuff they don't have so they can go onto the bigger ftps. Or have an ftp which shuts down as soon as the admin gets enough to pump up his ratio on a larger ftp.

      Of course, the biggest casualities of ratios are ratio-less ftp. They get raped by n00bs and semi-n00bs downloading things they don't care about but larger ratio-based ftps don't have.

      It's what got me out of ftp as a whole.

    8. Re:piracy returns to ftp? by dave420 · · Score: 1

      How can piracy return to FTP? By its very nature, someone has to have their neck on the line to share a file. Also, this is a completely new technology (or, rather, a completely new look at a relatively new technology). Pirates have a multitude more tools at their disposal than FTP, and all are better.

    9. Re:piracy returns to ftp? by lucas+teh+geek · · Score: 0

      nah, it just lost all the lamers to kazaa. big loss :P

      --
      TIAEAE!
    10. Re:piracy returns to ftp? by JPriest · · Score: 1

      Sounds time consuming. I have actually spent all day trolling IRC to download something at 3KB, only to realize I could have worked just for 2 hours and paid for it.

      --
      Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
  14. Security? by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

    Will there also be an sPDTP, a cryptographically secure version for those who want to secure the set of trusted peers away from the prying eyes of those outside the clique?

    --
    Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
  15. binary by NikeHerc · · Score: 1

    If this ever lives on a Sun box, can the default PLEASE not be ascii??? Sun, please get a clue on this!

    --
    Circle the wagons and fire inward. Entropy increases without bounds.
  16. FTP is the new floppy disk by cybermint · · Score: 1

    Even when there is something much better, it will take decades to get rid of it.

  17. Re:joke? by red+floyd · · Score: 1

    Read the "from the"... department

    --
    The only reason we have the rights we have is that people just like us died to gain those rights. -- Cheerio Boy
  18. about time by evenprime · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Isn't it about time we ditched FTP for something better?"

    We already have. It is called SCP

    --

    "Weapons should be hardy rather than decorative" - Miyamoto Musashi
    I think that goes for OS's too
    1. Re:about time by dresgarcia · · Score: 2, Informative

      "Isn't it about time we ditched SCP for something http://samba.anu.edu.au/rsync/better?"

      Rsync. You can even have it checksum your files. . .

    2. Re:about time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Isn't it about time we ditched Rsync for something better?"

      FTP. Minimal computational overhead so it's less harsh on servers.

      Oh, wait...

    3. Re:about time by PhiberOptix · · Score: 4, Informative

      actually it is called sftp. scp is a substitute for rcp.

    4. Re:about time by aminorex · · Score: 1

      You misspelled HTTP(S).

      --
      -I like my women like I like my tea: green-
    5. Re:about time by Elivs · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The way I see it there are two types of file transfers that I might want to serve files for.

      Public: In which case http/bitorrent are good choices currently. I can see that pdtp could be better than bit torrent for this.

      Private: This includes transfering stuff to and from work, or for a small number of family to access photo collections. For this I currently use ssh/scp/sftp, rsync and scponly. These tools give me reliable, and efficient methods for secure personal file transfer. "scponly" provides a limited chrooted shell to allow specific users only access to a set directory using scp/sftp/rsync.

      So yes I can see a place for a pdtp on my box, where it would complement other file transfer systems I have.

      Elivs

  19. P2P Research by Demandred · · Score: 5, Informative

    There are several P2P research projects that are looking at building reliabale and scalable P2P systems.

    Take a look at Tapestry, and Chord (and read some of the papers) to understand the issues involved in providing scalable and high performance P2P services. Not only is scalable search and overlay graph connectivity an issue, but also node failure and short session times of P2P nodes.

    Additionally, when you actually handle the issue of downloading data, building application-lvel multicast trees to distribute the data efficiently on a large scale is not easy. Two papers from SOSP '03 SplitStream, and Bullet address that issue.

    --
    "...Beer..."
    1. Re:P2P Research by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem of transient nodes has already been solved: Every node begins as a leafnode on the edge and as as its quality metric increases it gets promoted to supernode status so that it's closer to the central hub cluster where it can do the most good. The quality metric is based on many factors but the most important two are bandwidth and average uptime.

    2. Re:P2P Research by Demandred · · Score: 1

      Sorry, that "solution" is not viable. That algorithm generates overlay networks with Power-Law node degree distributions. This means that the few super nodes have a very large number of connections while the vast majority of nodes have very few (maybe only 1). This means that the although the network can survive random failures, a coordinated attack on the most highly connected nodes (less than 3% of the total) effectively shatters the connectivity of the overlay network. This has been studied in several papers.

      --
      "...Beer..."
    3. Re:P2P Research by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gnutella doesn't seem to have any scalability problem using this scheme. The old nullsoft gnutella didn't have supernodes and it failed.

    4. Re:P2P Research by Demandred · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, it does have major scalability problems...please refer to some of the numerous papers published on exactly this topic.

      The supernode/ultrapeer addition to the protocol was meant to address some of the scalability issues of the previous version of the protocol. However, the fragile nature of the original overlay network is only made worse since ultrapeers are explicitly meant to be highly connected nodes.

      The problem with Gnutella is that it can't do search efficiently due to the the broadcast nature of forwarding query messages. Research such as Random Walkers(SIGCOMM 02), and Attenuated Bloom Filters (IEEE INFOCOM 02) have tried to tackle the problem of scalable and fast search in unstructured P2P networks like Gnutella.

      --
      "...Beer..."
    5. Re:P2P Research by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 1

      SplitStream and Bullet are really more like P2P streaming systems; you can presumably get better efficiency using a bulk swarming system like BitTorrent or Slurpie.

    6. Re:P2P Research by PostItNote · · Score: 2

      Chord and Tapestry (and every other DHT scheme that I have seen) all have problems dealing with host churn. They don't seem really suitable for filesharing systems - instead they are more for large dynamic clusters in a large controlled corporate or academic environment.

      BitTorrent is actually pretty on-par with the current research stuff for swarming file distribution. Everything else seems like incremental improvements - many of which break things like Bittorrents "share and share alike" policy by decentralizing even further.

      Application level multicast feels, at a gut level, dead in the water. It's been a relatively solved problem for years, and hardly anyone uses it. Seems like a solution in search of a problem in a lot of ways.

  20. Mirror by XorNand · · Score: 3, Funny


    Just in case... here's a mirror. Always glad to lend a hand.

    --
    Entrepreneur : (noun), French for "unemployed"
  21. Re:It still doesn't answer a very important questi by anthonyclark · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Answer to this is the same argument that I've heard sometimes applied to open source:

    If we all contribute a little, then the cost to all of us is that much less.

    --
    ----- Documentation is worth it just to be able to answer all your mail with 'RTFM' - Alan Cox.
  22. Mind...going....mindless....! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can't tell the difference between reality and fantasy anymore, losing sanity, what is what? PDTP? Put down thursday please?!!?!?!? AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

    my mind is broken, and I owe it all to this goddamn stupid tradition

  23. Re:joke? by LostCluster · · Score: 1

    We stopped taking the "from the..." line seriously this morn, er, did we ever take that line seriously?

  24. p2p OS installls by Chaostrophy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm waiting for boot disks that fire up a peer to peer client for installing your os, and updates. Debian would be a great start, it would hugely reduce the load of the servers. Also Fedora, the BSDs, etc.

    Yes, you can already do bit torrent for the ISO, but that is its own kind of wast and hassle.

    Some day.

    --
    Plato seems wrong to me today
    1. Re:p2p OS installls by Shurhaian · · Score: 1

      For the less ambitious(and as a nod to possibly large P2P clients), the boot disk net-installs a P2P client, then hands over control to do the rest. (Mini-install CDs could have it built in.) FreeBSD already has a whole crapload of mirrors as it is, wouldn't surprise me if the others do as well. P2P might make it easier for people to set up mini-mirrors without committing the massive bandwidth and online-time requirements, but until such a user base is up and running, the existing servers could distribute the load if equipped with such a system.

      Don't know if they'd be referred to as peers in this sense(since, updates notwithstanding, they don't receive). Multiple-Origin Transfer Protocol? Thought of "multiple-source" first, but I can't imagine OSS advocates wanting to use MSTP.

      --
      NB: YMMV. IANAL. Take the above with a grain of salt.
  25. Speaking of torrents... by crashnbur · · Score: 2, Funny

    SuprNova, the best torrent web site ever, is going Japanese.

    I swear, this has nothing to do with today's date. :-P

    1. Re:Speaking of torrents... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TRIXY CRASHNBUR!!! I went there to check if it was true!

    2. Re:Speaking of torrents... by crashnbur · · Score: 1

      It was their April Fool's joke. It was over by the time Europe hit April 2, a good third of a day before April 2 in the U.S.

  26. Re:It still doesn't answer a very important questi by i23098 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There's no problem with that, don't share your bandwith with anyone, noone shares bandwith with you. Then you can only download from one source with limited resources. Other people that share can download from many sources (eventually each one with much less resources) that provide a total bandwith much greater, and more, when there is more people downloading they also download faster, instead of you that don't wanna share and have to slower the download when more people that don't share start to download... And besides, most people's connection limits are dowload limits not uploads :-P

  27. need lightweight clients, not installers by SuperBanana · · Score: 4, Informative
    BannedMusic.org made a BitTorrent wrapper that installs the application and then automatically launches the download, they call it an "easy downloader" and have instructions and a script for sites that want to make their own.

    And unfortunately, it's windows only, and still requires installing the software, which is 3MB+.

    What is needed is something along the lines of a very small, very simple java client or a browser plugin. Azureus is java, but is huge and has massive feature-bloat for the purposes of just downloading(and sharing back) one file. However, Bram and others don't seem terribly interested in expanding possibilities; a mac developer offered up numerous improvements to the BitTorrent team for the mac client(which among other things is based on 3.3a, not 3.4.1, weeks after 3.4.1 released) and was rewarded with deafening silence.

    The bittorrent protocol is http based. It's extensively documented on the bitconjurer website. Cmon folks, let's at least see a mozilla plugin or something! :-)

    1. Re:need lightweight clients, not installers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Cmon folks, let's at least see a mozilla plugin or something! :-)

      Bitch Bitch Bitch.

      write it yourself. I am busy building a Beowulf cluster of XBOX mods.

    2. Re:need lightweight clients, not installers by jonadab · · Score: 1

      Well, there's Net::BitTorrent::File, but this seems to be for use on the distribution end. Presumably the client would be Net::BitTorrent::Client, but that doesn't seem to exist yet. But BitTorrent has only really just started to catch on big-time in the last few months, so I'm sure someone will get to it before too long. A Mozilla plugin sounds like a good idea too, but that might be longer in coming.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    3. Re:need lightweight clients, not installers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      I am busy building a Beowulf cluster of XBOX mods.
      So? I'm building a beowulf cluster of virtual machines, using VMWare.

    4. Re:need lightweight clients, not installers by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      Well, the BitTorrent "team" doesn't develop the mac client. Bram just writes the vanilla perl client. All other clients are maintained by third parties.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    5. Re:need lightweight clients, not installers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >And unfortunately, it's windows only, and still requires installing the software, which is 3MB+.

      Which means it only applies to the majority of desktop users, who will download it in less that 6 seconds on their cable modems.

      What is needed is a sense of perspective, and less rabidity.

    6. Re:need lightweight clients, not installers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bram just writes the vanilla perl client.

      Perl? Funny, I could have sworn all the source files have the extension ".py"...

    7. Re:need lightweight clients, not installers by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      Yeah, sorrry, my bad

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    8. Re:need lightweight clients, not installers by richwklein · · Score: 1

      That's Bug # 236755

    9. Re:need lightweight clients, not installers by Bklyn · · Score: 1

      Actually, the BitTorrent protocol is not http-based at all. The protocol used to communicate with the TRACKER is http, but the protocol itself used between peers is custom.

    10. Re:need lightweight clients, not installers by Shinobi · · Score: 1

      Been there, done that.

      Needed to test some cluster-adapted code without access to an actual cluster.... It was slow, very slow, but I found out if the idea worked or not.

  28. I, for one, by JeanBaptiste · · Score: 4, Funny

    am sick of trying to determine the april fool day jokes from the real stories.

  29. Re:It still doesn't answer a very important questi by QuantumRiff · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I, for one, will not be sharing my bandwidth for something that should be provided by the file's source

    So, if for example, I write this need little GPL'd app that everyone loves, and release it as opensource, I should be responsible for hosting the file server for everyone? What if hundreds of thousands of people use it everyday, and a new patch comes out. Should I have to buy a T-1 (or something bigger) that costs an arm and a leg, to provide the file patch for a free program to others with no income for me? Or should I ask others to help out with their extra bandwith, and get a few seeders out there with bittorrent and run the tracker with the DSL line i have. I could pay $20 a month for a metered tiered connection in my town, but I pay $50 for an "unlimited" (notice the quotes). I know that not everywhere has these kinds of services, but you don't have to leave the torrent open forever either, or just leave the upload at 1k/s or something. It might slow down your download, but your still going to get access to the file..

    --

    What are we going to do tonight Brain?
  30. Kerry by ink · · Score: 1
    Isn't it about time we ditched Dubya for something better?

    Too bad we have to pick between a moron and a charlatan.

    --
    The wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead.
    1. Re:Kerry by B3ryllium · · Score: 1

      Too bad Gary Coleman isn't running.

    2. Re:Kerry by Jeremi · · Score: 1

      Charlatan? Care to back that one up (with something other than Bush campaign ads)?

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    3. Re:Kerry by volkris · · Score: 1

      :) See, now you've put him in an impossible position.

      Anything he could possibly say to discredit Kerry (and boy is there a lot of it) you could label as a Bush campaign ad.

      THe man's a two faced pretender. Nothing else to it.

    4. Re:Kerry by volkris · · Score: 1

      Those who've sat down and talked to the current president, even some of his harshest critics, report back that he's a very intelligent man. His credentials are public record, and they clearly indicate to anyone who cares to seriously ask that Bush is at no loss for brains. Sure he's a poor public speaker, but then again the Slashdot crowd is probably the last people who should be judging someone on superficial qualities.

      There are plenty of things you can criticize Bush over; being a moron is not one of them.

      Kerry, on the other hand, has a public record that completely backs up your statement. Thumbs up on that one.

    5. Re:Kerry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think he was thinking the other way around, you Demo-troll. Both terms are applicable to either.

    6. Re:Kerry by Endive4Ever · · Score: 1

      He's worse than Clinton, as it appears he's actually done a few things, i.e. his killing of civillians in Vietnam, in those short few months he was hotdogging around there in a boat.

      An ineffective fat horndog like Clinton at least didn't do that much damage.

      --
      ---
  31. Re:It still doesn't answer a very important questi by aderusha · · Score: 2

    and you, for one, maybe don't deserve the bandwidth you get for _free_ downloads. your favorite linux distro has to pay the bills sometime too, and i don't imagine that you've actually paypal'd anyone to host their isos. so contribute (either by cash or bandwidth) or shut up.

  32. Re:It still doesn't answer a very important questi by RetroGeek · · Score: 1

    If we all contribute a little, then the cost to all of us is that much less

    Except that in this case, if we all contribute a little, then we all pay more, and the cost to a few (one?) is a LOT less.

    --

    - - - - - - - - - - -
    I am a programmer. I am paid to produce syntax not grammar. Deal with it.
  33. something better == sftp, or HTTP! by sPaKr · · Score: 5, Informative

    I thought something better was sftp. As for distributions.. why not HTTP? Setup one reflector that dynamically kicks outs redirects as new mirrors come online. This is mutch better as we have a ton of clients already installed (curl,wget,..etc) We also have load balancing, dns round robin, authorzation, security(read: SSL) well defined in the protocol. All we need is a cgi script to kick out the redirects, and another that will make signature files based on the publically available SSL cert. Whamo all the same features.. and we didnt have to reinvent the wheel.

  34. Hm... by MagiGraphX · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That's just great! Now the media will consider FTP a movie-stealing method. Then the MPAA will call a ban to all FTP servers!

  35. Nitpick(s) by theantix · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Isn't it about time we ditched x86 for something better? AMD
    As far as I know, AMD uses x86 and x86-64, which to me qualifies as a valid interpretation of "shouldn't this have been ditched already?".

    Isn't it about time we ditched BASIC for something better? Uhm... it's for beginners. We can't ditch the biginners...
    No, but you can teach them to use Python.

    Isn't it about time we ditched 20-year-old TV sets for something better? New TVs, available at your local stores.
    I think you mean HDTV? Because that makes sense, while your reply didn't in that context.

    Isn't it about time we ditched Dubya for something better? John Kerry
    We can only hope...

    --
    501 Not Implemented
    1. Re:Nitpick(s) by Rick+and+Roll · · Score: 1, Informative
      Python is case-sensitive, BASIC is not. Not being case-sensitive is a big advantage for newbies.

      You could try teaching them LOGO or lisp, but lisp is boring and LOGO is no better than BASIC.

    2. Re:Nitpick(s) by YOU+LIKEWISE+FAIL+IT · · Score: 1
      Python is case-sensitive, BASIC is not. Not being case-sensitive is a big advantage for newbies.

      Heavens above. As someone who has taught beginning programmers, if they can't keep their case straight and consistant, it's going to be the least of their worries.

      --
      One god, one market, one truth, one consumer.
    3. Re:Nitpick(s) by Rick+and+Roll · · Score: 1
      consistant

      Should be spelled "consistent". I guess the thread subject works for this. ;)

      But as I said in another post, I was talking about REALLY young programmers. I was in 2nd grade when I learned GW-BASIC, and there couldn't have been a better language for me at that time. Come to think of it, though, I had the caps lock key on the whole time anyway, so case sensitivity wouldn't have really mattered.

      At that age, learning that everything has a type is a good way to start. Having the type be a symbol at the end of the variable made things really clear to me. So did having simple for loops and statement delimeters. Having

      for (int i=0; i }

      or

      for i in range(10):

      is not near as easy as understanding:

      FOR I = 1 TO 10
      ...
      NEXT

      Another place with simplicity that's lacking in Java/Python/C++?

      OPEN "FILE.TXT" FOR OUTPUT AS #1
      PRINT #1, "Hello World"

      BASIC is a language that a short book can be written about it, and the reader will have an introduction to programming that is niether boring nor difficult. The concepts are engrained because they are part of the syntax. Having keywords like NEXT and OUTPUT are great for beginning programmers. But use VB.NET and all the benefit is gone.

    4. Re:Nitpick(s) by YOU+LIKEWISE+FAIL+IT · · Score: 1
      Should be spelled "consistent". I guess the thread subject works for this. ;)

      Cripes :-/ Oh well, at least I misspell it consistantly.

      --
      One god, one market, one truth, one consumer.
    5. Re:Nitpick(s) by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > You could try teaching them LOGO or lisp, but lisp is boring

      So go for a variant, like elisp or Scheme. elisp has the advantage of
      being immediately useful, because you give them Emacs to use as an editor,
      and the first thing everyone needs to do is change the keybindings, so
      you teach them enough lisp to do that, and then you introduce them to some
      other thing they'll want to customize, and teach them enough more lisp to
      do that... pretty soon you've got them writing their own major modes and
      talking about wishing Emacs supported forking or threading, at which point
      you can introduce them to Scheme and start warp^H^H^H^Hstretching their
      minds around concepts like continuations.

      I prefer Perl, though. Yeah, it's case-sensitive, but you just teach them
      to do everything in lowercase except for filehandles (uppercase) and modules
      (usually Title::Case::Like::This, but however it's listed on search.cpan.org).
      And yeah, there's more to learn in Perl than BASIC, but if you skip all the
      functionality that's just plain _missing_ in BASIC (regexes, lexical and
      dynamic scoping, packages and modules (except core pragmas, which correspond
      roughly to the OPTION statement in BASIC), references, list transformations
      like map and grep, formats (who uses those anyway?), printf and sprintf, most
      of the special variables, typeglobs, the functional paradigm, objects, ...)
      then there's not nearly as much to teach 'em as there would be if you had
      to teach the whole language. The only major concept you really *have* to
      cover that's not present in BASIC is context. (Sigils actually have an
      analog in BASIC, though in BASIC they're a suffix rather than a prefix and
      the types are broken down differently, but it's the same basic idea,
      string$, integer%, single! and double# (did I reverse those? It's been so
      long...), and long&, verses $scalar, @array, %hash, &code, and *glob. As
      mentioned, you don't have to cover typeglobs, and you don't really need to
      cover coderefs either, so the & sigil can be skipped in a beginner course,
      leaving only three, comparable to the big three ($, %, and one of the float
      types, take your pick) for BASIC.)

      If I wanted to do a beginner course in object-oriented programming, I'd use
      Inform, on the grounds that virtually everyone with even slight geekish
      tendencies can get "into" the problem domain it's intended to solve, and
      also because the Designer's Manual is superb, and because its object model
      is fairly complete, with a full object forest, nested inheritance,
      multi-inheritance, easy instance objects (i.e., overriding inherited stuff
      on a per-object basis) -- all the goodies. Also, Inform is very easy to
      learn, and it's especially easy to read. It's not general-purpose at all,
      but for learning OO concepts that doesn't matter.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    6. Re:Nitpick(s) by Rick+and+Roll · · Score: 1
      I'm a big fan of perl too. And it is very elegant in many ways. Having to use brackets for blocks actually prevents many programmer errors. So does having real division rather than floor division by default.

      But I still like QuickBasic for the first programming course. And I believe its integer (no suffix) and double%, in BASIC. But Perl would be a close second. It is also simple for the first programming course, and when you learn it you also learn about UNIX. And it has quite a feature list.

    7. Re:Nitpick(s) by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > So does having real division rather than floor division by default.

      I think BASIC has real division by default, except of course that it's limited
      by whatever data type you're working with. What I really want (and we're
      *hopefully* getting it in Perl6) is numbers that automatically promote
      themselves to bignums if necessary, so that there's no such thing as overflow.
      Perl5 already promotes integers to floats as necessary, of course.

      > And I believe its integer (no suffix) and double%, in BASIC

      I'm pretty sure of integer%, since I used that quite a bit (in GWBASIC and
      later QBasic). I'm a lot less sure about double, because I almost never did
      anything in BASIC that needed floating point numbers.

      Trivia point: in some implementions of BASIC, foo$ and foo% and so on are
      all different variables, like @foo and %foo in Perl5. Use of this feature
      is generally discouraged in beginning courses, however, since overuse of it
      can create (minor) obfuscatory effects, _especially_ with overly laconic
      variable names.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
  36. PDTP's Sketchy Liscensing by LoveTheIRS · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I was looking around on the pdtp website. I was thinking everything was fine and dandy until I saw this in the FAQ.

    Question:
    "Skyfire is using a derivative of the Apache License. Doesn't that preclude linking with Qt as the Apache License is incompatible with the GPL?"

    Answer:
    "Qt/X11 is dual licensed under both the GPL and the QPL. The Apache License, while incompatible with the GPL, is not incompatible with the QPL, so when Skyfire is linked with Qt/X11 the terms of the QPL apply. Qt Non-Commercial Edition for Windows has a separate set of license terms which apply to all Windows builds of Skyfire." (emphasis added)

    The FAQ page

    Isn't this license a poor one? Aren't they breaking sourceforge.net rules by using a OSI unapproved license?

    Or maybe I don't know what I am talking about. PLEASE Correct me if I am wrong.
  37. Re:It still doesn't answer a very important questi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    So, if for example, I write this need little GPL'd app that everyone loves, and release it as opensource, I should be responsible for hosting the file server for everyone?

    You could either use a free distribution site, like Sourceforge, or, if your application is as great as you say it is, other people will ask *you* about mirroring it.

  38. You can chuck ftp but.. by xot · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The operating systems are not going to chuck ftp so soon and nor are they going to include torrent as a default program.
    I think theres still a while till we ditch ftp and move onto something else completely.Torrents and other p2p stuff is good but only if you take the effort to get them.What about the masses who want to click and go?It won't happen till they can right click and it says "Save torrent as". :-)

    --
    Lord of the Binges.
    1. Re:You can chuck ftp but.. by burns210 · · Score: 1

      i think all linux distros will come with torrent by default within a year or so... give them time, but once it truly stabalizes and gets that settled in feeling, ditros will FLOCK... then all free OSs will follow. BSDs specifically. Mac os x will not be far behind... it would be nice if Mozilla or Safari could just have a torrent plugin to handle the downloading of files.

  39. There's already a solution that covers this. by aminorex · · Score: 2, Interesting

    HTTP does all that. There are well-defined
    and well-implemented (Squid) cache-tree protocols
    for HTTP. This is very old stuff. FTP is just
    plain obsolete. It ads *zero* value over HTTP,
    and it's harder to use. Trying to bring FTP up
    to the standards of HTTP is a futile effort too,
    since HTTP is mature on many more dimensions,
    and does not suffer from the gross defects of
    the more primitive FTP such as transmission of
    port numbers as stream data.

    --
    -I like my women like I like my tea: green-
    1. Re:There's already a solution that covers this. by ComputerSlicer23 · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Actually, there is one thing that is terrible annoying about HTTP, that I always liked about FTP. You can't ask it to enumerate files. Sure it'll give you a list, but you can't just take all the links. They might have custom headers or footers. So you actually have to parse the stupid thing and extract the pieces and parts you want. Every FTP server and client I have ever seen has a scriptable way to say, grab everything in that directory, put it here. HTTP has no such facility.

      It's virtually trivial to mirror subparts of an FTP site, it's much harder to do that on a Website if it has any links to the parent. Especially because websites specifically aren't a filesystem. So you can't make the same heirical assumptions that you would about an FTP site. It's why I always use rsync mirrors to grab files instead of FTP or HTTP. I hate FTP, it's a stupid protocol. HTTP is nice, but there is always extra crapola that I don't want that is a part of the system (index files, icon images, other gunk). HTTP isn't a filesystem. Now, WebDAV from what I have seen, looks like it could be a real filesystem. HTTP straight up isn't.

      Kirby

    2. Re:There's already a solution that covers this. by evilviper · · Score: 3, Insightful
      It ads *zero* value over HTTP,

      HTTP does not do the same things that FTP does.

      HTTP sucks for file transfers, frankly. You need a full-fledged web-browser just to view the index of files on an HTTP server. Not to mention that automatically downloading subdirectories requires serious processing of numerous HTML sub-documents.

      HTTP does not do a good job of:

      handling authentication.

      handling sessions.

      keeping statistics

      limiting connections

      communicating error messages
      Etc, etc, etc.

      does not suffer from the gross defects of the more primitive FTP such as transmission of
      port numbers as stream data.

      Yes, I think everyone will agree that FTP sucks in that regard, but HTTP has it's own drawbacks.

      FTP would disapear quickly if something came along that had all the features of FTP, without the baggage. However, until that something comes along, we are all stuck with FTP.
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    3. Re:There's already a solution that covers this. by aminorex · · Score: 1

      > HTTP sucks for file transfers, frankly. You need a full-fledged web-browser just to view the index of files on an HTTP server.

      Pfft. It's trivial to recognize the URLs (libwww:HTParse).

      > # handling authentication.

      mod_auth_mysql, mod_auth_ldap, mod_auth_...
      Vastly more configurable and utile than any FTP server I've ever seen, Apache runs on every popular web server platform.

      # handling sessions.

      Why would you care?

      # keeping statistics

      The number and range and functionality of even the *free* tools to convert Apache logs into reports boggles the mind.

      # limiting connections

      mod_throttle

      # communicating error messages

      HTTP's error system is essentially a somewhat more mature clone of that used in FTP.

      I haven't seen you make any actual, valid points here.

      --
      -I like my women like I like my tea: green-
    4. Re:There's already a solution that covers this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WebDAV supports directory lists, uploading, etc. It is the full replacement for FTP.

    5. Re:There's already a solution that covers this. by evilviper · · Score: 1
      It's trivial to recognize the URLs (libwww:HTParse).

      Trivial to one person is serious bloat to another. Even if you think it's trivial, FTP is even more "trivial".

      Vastly more configurable and utile than any FTP server I've ever seen

      If that's the case, you need to look at more FTP servers. HTTP auth is an afterthough tacked on to webbrowsers. It works quite poorly on the user's end, and there are no HTTP clients that work anywhere near as well as FTP client.

      The number and range and functionality of even the *free* tools to convert Apache logs into reports boggles the mind.

      Let me know just as soon as you've setup an HTTP-based ratio file server.

      Which brings me to another problem with HTTP. Uploading through HTTP is quite a mess. With FTP all you have to do is set the proper permissions on the files/folders, no need to mess around with the config every time. Not to mention that there's no real way to tell a browser you want to upload a file to an HTTP server.

      mod_throttle

      The description sounds like it does enough, but I can't say that for sure without trying it. Also, I can't say that it would be nearly as simple or easy as imposing such limits through FTP.

      HTTP's error system is essentially a somewhat more mature clone of that used in FTP.

      Not true at all. The two systems are very different.

      The HTTP error system is more for human interpretation, and doesn't do so well when you have a program try to understand them, and what to do about them. HTTP error messages are quite strange things, designed to work well in a web browser, and that's all. FTP error messages are quite a lot simpler, for both the program handling them, and the end user reading them.

      Also, how would your HTTP server be able to communicate a login message, or folder message like those on FTP servers? You nearly need a full-fledged web browser just for your HTTP file transfer program.

      I haven't seen you make any actual, valid points here.

      If you dismiss all "actual, valid points" by saying "What do you care?" then you'll never see anybody make any.
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    6. Re:There's already a solution that covers this. by Fastolfe · · Score: 1

      I think everyone agrees that obtaining a machine-readable list of content (e.g. a list of files in a directory) over HTTP is painful. As another poster pointed out, however, the WebDAV extensions correct this deficiency and do indeed provide a simple, extensible mechanism to view the contents "behind" a typical filesystem-based HTTP server as well as allow for an easier mechanism for changing it.

      HTTP auth is an afterthough tacked on to webbrowsers. It works quite poorly on the user's end, and there are no HTTP clients that work anywhere near as well as FTP client.

      I'm not sure I follow this. Your "standard" HTTP and FTP authentication is effectively identical. Both protocols indicate a username and a password is required for entry. FTP does this by prompting for a username and then prompting for a password. HTTP does it by indicating "basic" HTTP authentication is required. The HTTP client does the rest.

      Both FTP and HTTP clients end up giving you a prompt for a username and a password. I'm not following when you say that HTTP clients implement this poorly in comparison to FTP.

      Not to mention that there's no real way to tell a browser you want to upload a file to an HTTP server.

      A browser isn't a composer. A browser is there to retrieve content. Most browsers today allow for FTP and HTTP content retrieval through effectively the same interface.

      A more fully-featured FTP suite would certainly allow users to send files to an FTP server, just as a more fully-featured HTTP suite tends to have a composer application designed to "PUT" a file over HTTP.

      I do wholeheartedly agree with you, however, that setting up an HTTP server to handle this is an order of magnitude more difficult than an FTP server, but I'm not convinced yet that this is an unsolvable problem.

      More often than not, people use FTP to update an HTTP server's document root, so there's no huge push to make this feature core or easy to use in most HTTP server platforms.

      The HTTP error system is more for human interpretation, and doesn't do so well when you have a program try to understand them, and what to do about them. HTTP error messages are quite strange things, designed to work well in a web browser, and that's all. FTP error messages are quite a lot simpler, for both the program handling them, and the end user reading them.

      I have to side with the original poster here. HTTP error messages are functionally identical to their FTP counterparts. They are numeric messages that mean something very specific. Usually these numeric messages are accompanied with a textual description. In the HTTP case, these numeric messages and textual descriptions can also be accompanied by an HTTP message body, usually in the form of an HTML document that is considerably more verbose about the problem.

      But at the root of it all is an HTTP response code, just as in the case of FTP.

      Also, how would your HTTP server be able to communicate a login message, or folder message like those on FTP servers?

      Different conventions for different technologies. In HTTP, you don't "change directories" so much as you request a directory index directly. There's no state to remember here. In theory, a request for a directory index SHOULD (in a better HTTP world) result in a nice machine-readable directory listing, likely in combination with some "folder message" as you describe.

      Arguably, when you request a directory index today, what you're getting is the "folder message". You just don't get a machine-readable directory index with it.

  40. Re:It still doesn't answer a very important questi by Calroth · · Score: 1

    Most people using ADSL technology have upload speeds lower than download speeds. For example, 256/64 down/up, or 512/128. That's asymmetric - the 'A' in ADSL.

    In BitTorrent, your download speed is theoretically capped to your upload speed (if you're sharing with a ratio of 1:1).

  41. Terms Of Service by dpilot · · Score: 1

    Adelphia.net:

    NO SERVERS OF ANY KIND

    Sorry, I'd like to participate, but I can't. I know it won't die without me, but I fear more broadband ISPs taking on equally moronic TOS. The stance isn't entirely without merit, since Joe 6pak has no business running a server on today's Internet. But there's also no way to prove competence, and even if there were, I'm sure ISPs would be eager to charge me double.

    --
    The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    1. Re:Terms Of Service by CavemanKiwi · · Score: 1

      But wait my computer is Window XP Professional computer, Not 2000(or XP if it is out) Server so I should be sweet as then ;)

  42. Hardy and decorative by Shinzaburo · · Score: 1
    Weapons should be hardy rather than decorative
    I think that goes for OS's too
    While I can't say for certain what it was like in feudal Japan, in the modern world form and function are no longer mutually exclusive.
  43. Re:It still doesn't answer a very important questi by Saeger · · Score: 1
    Ooookay, so you wait in line at FilePlanet (or whereever) while the rest of us swarm the download using our unused bandwidth. Schmuck. So what if the providers of the data you want aren't being bankrupted by bandwidth bills... you still benefit.

    --

    --
    Power to the Peaceful
  44. If only... by Dog+and+Pony · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... this QT GPL project was ever done, we could just ignore any such issues for ever and ever: http://kde-cygwin.sourceforge.net/qt3-win32/index. php

    1. Re:If only... by damiam · · Score: 1

      No, we couldn't. Since the Apache license is incompatible with the GPL, a GPL-only license of QT would be worse, not better, then the current dual GPL/QPL.

      --
      It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
  45. cool... by the_2nd_coming · · Score: 2, Interesting

    the guy at autopackage.org was attempting something simmilar to this but for package distrobution...it looks like with this protocol, youjust need to set up all the OSS servers with packages on them and boom...you have one huge honkin FTP site with all packages nessisary for all things...then you just ned to download a discription file and then the package manager can grab all the packages from a few PDPT gets and your done...good bye RPM hell.

    --



    I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
  46. Hey genius... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
  47. Re : Suprnova by Elusive_Cure · · Score: 1

    Sorry to disapoint you mate but .... April Fooled you....lol

    --
    Roses are red, violets are blue, most poems rhyme, but this one doesn't... ;^)
  48. Case on point! by twoslice · · Score: 1, Interesting
    I was called in by a new client to fix their public FTP server that mysteriously crashed. I found out pretty quickly that the anonymous account had all full permissions with a blank password...

    I checked the drive to find it was filled to the max with over 100 GB of porn! Lucky I always travel with a spare hard drive =)

    --

    From excellent karma to terible karma with a single +5 funny post...
  49. Security through obscurity... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I like that I am not seeing FTP being talked about by the Senate, Congress, and Lobbyists.

    Nothing to see here officer, move along.

    God bless Top Sites & Affils :)

  50. Good habits early by IncohereD · · Score: 1

    Not being case-sensitive is a big advantage for newbies.

    How so? As long at their compiler/interpreter is catching the errors, this will in fact teach them good habits early, so they don't have to unlearn them later.

    My grade 11 intro to programming teacher, bless his anal soul, wouldn't let us use any global variables. Amongst other things. And I'm a better coder for having learned the right way than the wrong way.

    I still have people at work who will ask me to look at some code that's not working, and the first thing I notice is that they're class name isn't capitalized or something, and their defense is "oh, but this is just a quick thing to test something". The whole reason for style is that so you can tell what's going on, which is something that should be taught early.

    1. Re:Good habits early by Rick+and+Roll · · Score: 1
      OK, fair enough. I was thinking younger, though, like 2nd or 3rd grade, when I learned programming. Basically algorithms for drawing shapes and stuff. I guess we are talking about two different kinds of beginning programming.

      I think Microsoft QuickBASIC is a great environment for early introduction to programming.

      And Python isn't a very good language for teaching scope concepts used in C/C++/C#/Java either. But some other things give it an advantage over others for beginners, such as not having to declare variables.

      As for those people that ask you to check their code, it would be nice if Java gave better error messages (I assume that's what you're using, because that sounds like a Java mistake to me). The GNAT implementation of Ada says "possible misspelling of ****", which I think would be extremely helpful to begining programmers. Then, if they could read, they wouldn't be asking you.

  51. Re:It still doesn't answer a very important questi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1) sourceforge may not be around forever. It costs lots and lots of money to run, but VA isn't really raking the cash in.

    2) a great many sites that mirror GPL stuff are universities. Very generous universities. Costs them lots of money, too. And money for public things like universities is pretty scarce. With the decline in the tech market, and students going to other tracks, I wouldn't be suprised if we see a bit of that funding disappear, and the admins decide that these mirrors are a bit too much cost probihitive.

    3) companies that mirror are pretty far and few, but their efforts are appreciated.

  52. BitTorrent resource-hungry? by Handpaper · · Score: 5, Interesting
    From the description:
    BitTorrent suffers another problem in that the only usable implementations are currently only available in Python. The primary problem with Python is its excessive resource usage
    Really? I'm currently running four throttled BT downloads on a PII-350 w/64MB. Max CPU usage is 8%, load average 0.25. If you're really that bothered see here for an alternative.
    but other problems arise such as integration of the Python implementation into a native GUI frontend for a given platform
    Ever heard of WxGtk? RPMs for most distros, if it wasn't part of your default install.
    as well as the need to bundle the Python runtime with the BitTorrent client on most platforms as few deployed systems have a Python runtime available
    Now this is just silly. I dont think there is a linux distro which doesn't include Python libraries and even for Windows it's a single small executable. Besides (correct me if I'm wrong) but isn't one of the reasons for using Python that it has bounds-checking on arrays and is therefore proof against the cause of most exploits - the buffer overrun?

    1. Re:BitTorrent resource-hungry? by hayds · · Score: 1

      I dont think there is a linux distro which doesn't include Python libraries

      This is true, but the description says platforms, not linux distributions. I think the author was thinking about deploying on Windows, Mac, etc as well as linux. Hence the problems with native UI and lack of python runtime. I guess he is after a solution written in Java or C++ using a cross platform toolkit like QT or WX.

    2. Re:BitTorrent resource-hungry? by Dr.+Sp0ng · · Score: 1

      I think the author was thinking about deploying on Windows, Mac, etc as well as linux.

      He mentioned that Python was a small download on Windows, and OS X comes with it preinstalled anyway.

    3. Re:BitTorrent resource-hungry? by Handpaper · · Score: 1
      Tried the BitTorrent download page? Windows, Mac and Linux are all supported, raw Python is also available for users of other OS/architectures.
      As for Java, this one's quite well known. C implementation as mentioned above here

  53. FTP obsolete by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    last i checked the aspiring pirates strive to achive a private dump not a damn torrent.

    bittorrent is a highly parasitic form of p2p that YES i have tried and will stay as far away from my computer as electronically possible.

    oh and name one time that ftp gave you a popup from hell (mozilla users begin flame)

  54. WE already have replaced FTP by csoto · · Score: 1

    There's ssh and WebDAV. Both work great, and have significant advantages...

    --
    There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. --Bene Gesserit Axiom
  55. Upgrade yes replace no by PhilippeT · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The main problem with the "BitTorrent" idea is that it gets associated with "illegal" actions.
    I was on the "Desert Combat" Testers team and we had to download 600-700mb patches once a week... off one ftp server.
    When i mentioned the idea of using a modified BitTorrent client/server to ease the strain on the server i was told we could not use "illegal" tools.

    First educate the public and then start to think about upgrading things to help the internet not crash and burn.

    Phil

    --
    A psychopath can't tell the difference between right and wrong. A sociopath knows the difference - he just doesn't care.
    1. Re:Upgrade yes replace no by tomstdenis · · Score: 0

      "educate" that sounds like money not spent on arms..... hmmm...

      NO! DENIED.

      --
      Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    2. Re:Upgrade yes replace no by Artemis3 · · Score: 1

      Heh, talking about clueless morons... I always prefered EOD for good reason ^_^

      And besides, Lost Village gets tiresome ;)

      I always try to explain the people that BitTorrent is not a "program" or "network", just another method of transfering files.

      I hope this PDTP thing gets going, but rest assured Bram and friends won't stand idle. Its nice to see people trying to work in BitTorrent or BitTorrent like projects. Bittorrent has changed the way of thinking of many people.

      --
      Artix
      Your Linux, your init.
  56. Re:something better == sftp, or HTTP! by danhs32 · · Score: 1

    I think a big part of the project is that it has the Bittorrent-like functionality. The clients upload to one another and do so during the downloading process. Using http with curl or wget without making considerable modifications (ie rewriting bittorrent) wouldn't have the benefits of bittorrent. Might be a good technique to retrieve .torrent files though.

  57. Re:What about anal sex? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    yes

  58. Don't confuse News with Editorials by xswl0931 · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    You have to remember that despite the tag line, Slashdot is NOT a news center. It's all about the editors, contributors, and readers complaining about Microsoft and praising Linux. If you want news, get read a reputable news source.

  59. BT Bandwidth-saved? by Borg_5x8 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Hmm, I was thinking about this earlier.. does anyone actually have any statistics for how much server transfer badwidth was saved by distributing a popular file (latest anime release or something) over BitTorrent? How much does it actually help?

    1. Re:BT Bandwidth-saved? by colonslashslash · · Score: 2, Informative
      Myself and a friend run tlm-project.org where we use BitTorrent to distribute Linux ISO's. We don't have any comparitive statistics vs standard FTP transfer, but obviously, as soon as we have seeded out an ISO to one or two people, our bandwidth constraints are halved. Then, when those seeders dish out the files to a few others, our server pretty much gets to kick back and relax, or devote bandwidth to our other torrents.

      All in all, I love the BitTorrent protocol, I think its a great implementation for something like we are doing, although, as another user said, it is a shame about the "illegal" reputation it seems to have gained.

      --
      She's built like a steak house, but she handles like a bistro....
  60. Re:It still doesn't answer a very important questi by AnyNoMouse · · Score: 1
    In BitTorrent, your download speed is theoretically capped to your upload speed (if you're sharing with a ratio of 1:1).
    Generally speaking, the share ratio (eg. 1:1) doesn't refer to the download speed, but the total bytes shared. Typically, you'll get a download speed 3 to 5 times your upload speed and sometimes more than that. The share ratio determines how long you upload after your download is finished (until you've uploaded as much as you've download with a 1:1 ratio).

    --
    -Redundancy Man strikes again!
  61. haha troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I guess you just got modded down by a rabid telnet zealot.

  62. Yes but, by metalhed77 · · Score: 1

    I agree, you can even check POP mail over telnet. You'd have to be insane, however, to use telnet to say log into a shell account.

    Can anyone enlighten me as to where telnet is used in new devices at all?

    --
    Photos.
    1. Re:Yes but, by DA-MAN · · Score: 1

      I use it at work on private networks for getting onto the console servers.

      I work for a high performance clustering firm, and we use Cyclade Terminal Servers for getting into the machines during boot or the BIOS.

      Telnet to console server port 7012 will connect to node12. This is hardly used, and there is a way to ssh to the console server and telnet to localhost instead, but it's just easier this way.

      Besides the clusters are on their own private net, with traffic to these on a separate vlan.

      --
      Can I get an eye poke?
      Dog House Forum
  63. Re:It still doesn't answer a very important questi by shadow_slicer · · Score: 1

    "And besides, most people's connection limits are dowload limits not uploads"

    Most *posted* limits. The problem is that most consumers have asymetrical bandwidth, so they just don't have that much upstream to share.

    I could use all 12 kbps upstream that the Comcast gods see fit to bless me with to upload files using P2P. But then, of course, I couldn't even surf the internet: Almost all my DNS queries fail, and the websites that don't, just timeout --probably because my [smart] router decides to preserve active connections instead of allowing more udp (DNS) or tcp (http) connections.

    That's a perfectly valid reason *not* to share -- because it costs you something.

    Me, I still share (I just limit bittorrent to 5kbps upstream so I can still have some bandwidth).
    Although, my roommate (uses windows) "doesn't know how" to limit his bandwidth ("I just click the download button and it downloads. It doesn't give me an option for that!")....so every thursday when the new enterprise episodes come out...

    anyway...I'm pretty sure I had a point so...yeah...

  64. URL structure isn't supportive of this. by metalhed77 · · Score: 1

    What if my site uses something like mod rewrite? FTP sites generally are a direct representation of the filesystem. Complex http sites may have no relationship to the internal filestructure and may be un-mirrorable. If you're looking for a rule sheet in regards to mirroring http look no farther than wget and robots.txt. If there isn't a page linking to it you weren't supposed to get it probably anyway. wget does handle directory depth i'm almlost certain btw.

    --
    Photos.
  65. It is on FTP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Look, what the end user sees and the greater picture of the scene are totally different. End users in warez take what they can get, and the outlets are all sorts. BT, DC, XDCC, fserv, hacked public FTPs, etc. It's all there, and the leeches take what is available.

    However higher up, it's almost all FTP. It's still the most efficient, and there are plenty of servers and clients customized for the job. There isn't a serious distro in the world on BT.

    The differing protocols for end users is a matter of access. Those that choose to make it accessable in many ways. For the serious high level stuff that makes it all possible, FTP remains the only way.

  66. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OKAY!!

  67. QPL is OSI approved by tarcieri · · Score: 4, Informative

    Hello. I'm the project manager for PDTP, and author of Skyfire. There's nothing wrong with the QPL whatsoever, unless you mind the fact that it's GPL incompatible (but then again, so is the Apache license). The QPL is an OSI Approved license, so there's nothing to worry about.

  68. Forward error correction and bulk data transfers by dido · · Score: 1

    What I'd like to see incorporated in their protocols is the proper use of forward error correction techniques to speed up file tranfers. Most Internet file transfer protocols these days make use of automatic rerequest to correct mistransmitted packets, which can be costly when large amounts of data are to be transferred over unreliable links. I've heard that it is possible to make use of erasure codes such as Reed-Solomon or Tornado codes to speed up multicast bulk data transfers. Michael Luby the inventor of the Tornado codes, has actually considered this application for his error correcting codes in the paper "Accessing Multiple Mirror Sites in Parallel: Using Tornado Codes to Speed Up Downloads". I wonder if this approach would help improve this application's performance?

    --
    Qu'on me donne six lignes écrites de la main du plus honnête homme, j'y trouverai de quoi le faire pendre.
  69. X works - not by RedLaggedTeut · · Score: 1
    Did you ever try out a game like e.g. Wesnoth ? It scrolls very slow and doesn't even scroll smoothly. I believe this is due to limitations of X.

    There is nothing out there that can work with the newest features of graphics cards as DirectX can. DirectX is one of the last unassaulted selling points of Windows.

    --
    I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
    1. Re:X works - not by shish · · Score: 1
      X is not slow, hardware accelerated X is very not slow.

      OpenGL is as good with graphics as DirectX

      Never heard of wesnoth, how do you blame X for it not working?

      --
      I mod down anyone who says "I will be modded down for this", regardless of the rest of their comment
  70. allegory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wow.

    This looks almost like the transition between terrestrial radio voice communication (eg. CB, local-service, emergency) and it's evolution in trunking. Thinking in terms of servers to radio channels, a lot of people are trying to access the same information on limited channels, and this is opening up more channels.

    Ooh! here is another one. Do they have radio repeaters that are capable of routing like the 'intarweb'. Yeah, that would be hella-cool!

    pffffttthppth

  71. WHICH STORIES ARE JOKES? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Call me dumb, but would someone mind marking
    all the April 1st jokes as such?
    It is really annoying not knowing for sure,
    and the authors are deserving of some bad karma for this.

  72. Re:It still doesn't answer a very important questi by i23098 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But there are people that keep sharing even after their dowload completes... And you seem to be missing an important point. Even if you have a T1, if there are lots of people downloading through FTP you have to share the bandwith with all of them. With a p2p solution people stop using your bandwith sharing between them, meaning you can serve your files faster and with a greater total bandwith. When you say In BitTorrent, your download speed is theoretically capped to your upload speed you are assuming that the FTP server can serve you faster than you can upload. And that's not the case when there are lots of people trying to access the files in question (never heard of pages being slashdoted?).

  73. post a dupe by MoreDruid · · Score: 1
    Oh well... they can always post a dupe story... It's not that _that_ doesn't happen around here. :)

    it's a joke, OK?

    --
    The best weapon of a dictatorship is secrecy, but the best weapon of a democracy should be the weapon of openness.
  74. Hash trees! by XNormal · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Please don't use straight SHA1 - it requires downloading the entire file to verify.

    Bittorrent and some other file sharing networks split the file into chunks and keep metadata with the hashes of chunks. The problem with this idea is how big to make the chunks: too big and you need to download a big chunk before you can verify. Too small and the list of hashes itself takes too long to download (the hashes are what makes .torrent files relatively big).

    I think the solution should be to use hash trees. Split the file into relatively small chunks (1k?) and calculate their hashes. Now take every two consecutive hashes and hash them. Repeat with the hash results from the previous step until you have a tree with a single hash at its root. The root hash represents the entire file just like an MD5 of SHA1 sum. The difference is that with a small amount of metadata as hints you can verify any part of the file without downloading the entire file. All you need is a short (log n) chain of hashes leading down to the root hash. The server will trickle the hash information interleaved with the download and the client will verify it on the fly and never need to write a single byte to the disk before it's cryptographically verified.

    --
    Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
    1. Re:Hash trees! by Bazzargh · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Moderators, how is the parent insightful? He's just misread the post he replied to!

      Please don't use straight SHA1 - it requires downloading the entire file to verify.

      Bittorrent and some other file sharing networks split the file into chunks and keep metadata with the hashes of chunks.


      Re read the grandparent:
      with clients uploading pieces to each other and verifying their integrity with MD5 or SHA1 checksums (emphasis mine, especialy on the pronoun)

      ie the SHA1s are of the pieces (ie chunks) not the whole file.

    2. Re:Hash trees! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To start, SHA1 can be used on any size of data so thats irrelevant. It just produces a digest. You could have data thats too small, but then you can pad it. If the data is too large (2^64bits iirc), chunk it. You don't *have* to run SHA1 on complete files only, why the hell would you? Smelling a bit trollish there.

      A single 32bit checksum per chunk. Nice. Simple. Doesn't hammer your network, processors or storage.

      Your method requires an exponentially increasing number of checksums to be calculated and transmitted as the file size increases. That leads to increased traffic which is best avoided in network protocols. Not to mention the amount of CPU power required to calculate them or the increase in storage space to keep them on the server.

      Your small problem about not getting that last 5% of efficiency because the chunk size is too small/large has just turned into a network/server killing beast.

      Nice try, but no cigar.

    3. Re:Hash trees! by laird · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "The problem with this idea is how big to make the chunks: too big and you need to download a big chunk before you can verify. Too small and the list of hashes itself takes too long to download ... I think the solution should be to use hash trees"

      This sounds clever, but the percentages don't work. Sure, a .torrent file might be 8K for a TV show, or 150K for an entire season of a TV show (to use two .torrent files that I have handy). Yes, those files are large, but let's keep it in perspective: the 8K file lets you download a 175 MB video file, and the 150K torrent lets you download 180 episodes of a TV show, totaling around 10 GB. So the torrent file is between 0.0015% and 0.005% of the total file size transferred (based on the two cases I looked at). So it hardly makes sense to make the protocol more complex in order to optimize that 0.005% of the bandwidth transferred.

  75. Beware! This is Dangerous! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is a major security risk. I refuse to use any p2p software for security reasons.
    Also, serving data from home PC's is extremly cost ineffective.

  76. Beware! This is DANGEROUS! by SegaVegas · · Score: 0

    This is a major security risk. I refuse to use any p2p software for security reasons.
    Also, serving data from home PC's is extremly cost ineffective.

  77. Re:It still doesn't answer a very important questi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Preciousss Preciousss Bandwidth!!

    Keepses it all to myself!

  78. You've obviously read just the first line. by XNormal · · Score: 1

    Please read the rest for a more detailed discussion of on-the-fly cryptographic verifications.

    --
    Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
  79. i used to use ftp all the time..until... by modpod · · Score: 1

    i got samba correctly configured, a while ago.
    recently i've reformatted my box and freshly installed debian, and for some reason, when i attempt to transfer files via ftp, or samba, the system locks up instantly. no indication of why in /var/log/ either. what a bummer.
    kernel 2.6.4. ipv6 is not enabled.

    1. Re:i used to use ftp all the time..until... by chrisopherpace · · Score: 1

      I doubt that it is actually "locking up". Is the ftp client freezing for a while? If so, you might want to try the 'passive' command. You are behind a firewall, right?

    2. Re:i used to use ftp all the time..until... by modpod · · Score: 1

      the box is debian box actually completely locks up.. mouse is no longer responsive, keyboard isn't either, numlock is frozen in the on position.. while meanwhile the windows box realizes eventually that it's not pushing any data over, and the transfer speed ends up at zero. and at that point, i have to reboot the deb box. same thing happens with samba. i checked my kernel config, there's no ipv6 support enabled.

  80. Re:something better == sftp, or HTTP! by autocracy · · Score: 1

    Cool. Kinda makes uploading suck though, doesn't it? Not so bad for distribution, but just plain icky for anything bi-directional or towards a central location rather than from it.

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  81. You left out the obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    There are several P2P research projects that are looking at building reliabale and scalable P2P systems.
    You left out the obvious one, Freenet.

    Most people don't see it as competitive with apps like BitTorrent because of its focus on anonymity, however with its dynamic caching, integrity checking, and complete decentralization, it is actually a pretty good content delivery platform. It is possible to get downloads at speeds comparable to fast web servers with large files (because the overhead of finding the file is much less significant than when retrieving small files).

    Freenet has also been operating in the wild for years, and as-such its developers have been forced to contend with real-world issues that apps like Tapestry and Chord are only beginning to consider.

    Freenet's approach is heuristic, rather than the deterministic "Distributed HashTable" (DHT) approach used by some other applications. Personally, I am sceptical as to whether DHTs can ever be made sufficiently robust to deal with the unreliable nature of nodes on the Internet, a good example being NeoNet, which has been trying to make DHTs work in the real world for over a year with no success.

  82. Re:It still doesn't answer a very important questi by RetroGeek · · Score: 1

    Schmuck

    Good intelligent response.

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    - - - - - - - - - - -
    I am a programmer. I am paid to produce syntax not grammar. Deal with it.
  83. Re:Forward error correction and bulk data transfer by TheSync · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Erasure codes have the property that for a file N packets long, you calculate some number K of coded packets, and the receiver needs only to receive N of any combination of coded or source packets to be able to recreate the original file.

    For instance, I could have a file 100 packets long, and calculate 25 coded packets, then I could receive, for example, 80 packets of the original file and 20 coded packets (80+20=100) and recalculate the entire original file. Or 90 original and 10 coded packets. Or 75 original and 25 coded packets...etc.

    Before Tornado codes, this was computationally difficult to do in practice for large files. Typical use of Tornado files is to just send all coded packets, and receivers can "fill their cup from the fountain, dipping it into the stream whenever they want" to get any N number of packets to recreate the original file. Obviously, this makes a lot of sense in a multicast domain.

    But for distributed file transmission, I'm not sure this makes sense. You would need to collect N different packets. If you got the same coded packet more than once, it would not help you.

    Keeping track of which unduplicated coded packets you have and need is just as difficult as keeping track of which unduplicated original packets you have and need.

    Packet loss is not really much of a problem if you are using TCP. On the other hand, it is a problem when you are doing multicast UDP over the Net or satellite.

    So overall I'd say file-level FEC using erasure codes is pretty much useless for distributed file transmission.

    Anyone care to differ?

  84. Re:binary [rant] by Fastolfe · · Score: 1

    This is something that kind of ticks me off. Different operating systems have different conventions for what a "new line" is. That, of course, is why FTP has its two modes: binary and ASCII. The client is responsible for determining what type of newlines the server has, and converting those to native newlines if necessary.

    Everybody knows about this problem. We've known about it for decades. So why is this still such a pain in the ass? I forget putting FTP in binary mode just as much as the next guy, but if I'm transferring a text file, it'd probably tick me off just as much to have it default to binary (where I forget to change it to ascii), since my text file is almost unusable.

    (Arguably an almost unusable text file is better than a completely unusable binary one, however.)

    HTTP and HTML made this worse. MIME says text/* content types must use normalized "network" newlines (CRLF). Every piece of text transferred with a text MIME type should undergo this transformation, and MIME clients should understand that they need to convert from network newlines to native newlines when working with the text. Then HTTP and HTML came along, and they said, "but that's going to be too hard!" and effectively said that any HTTP client should accept any type of newline, and HTTP servers shouldn't care what type of newlines are in their text.

    As a result, when someone sends me a piece of text that originates from Unix, no matter what protocol they used to retrieve it, there's at least a 50% chance that the newlines will be wrong and I'll have to convert it.

    This is stupid.

  85. Look at your electric bill by tepples · · Score: 1

    You can't use CD-RW like a floppy disk. It's not "random access writable". And you can only write a CD-RW so many times before you can't use it anymore...

    CD-RW drives support packet writing with appropriate drivers. And how many times can you rewrite a floppy again, especially given the urine-poor quality control of today's floppy drives and media?

    [SSH is] Practically unheard of outside the Unix world.

    So is telnet, or any other shell access.

    LCDs are way more expensive than CRTs.

    Only in situations with extremely high interest rates, when it's best to invest money in the financial markets rather than in capital goods. Otherwise, replacing an aging CRT with an LCD pays for itself in energy cost savings.

    Try running XP on that old 386.

    Replacing a 386 mobo with a Crusoe mobo would soon pay for itself in energy cost savings. And still, what about FreeDOS? Would you consider it a better deal than MS-DOS for those who aren't running Windows?

  86. System Resources on win9x by tepples · · Score: 1

    I'm currently running four throttled BT downloads on a PII-350 w/64MB.

    Machines with that kind of CPU typically shipped with Windows 98. The Windows 9x family of operating systems is limited to 64 KB in user.exe's heap and 64 KB in GDI.exe's heap; it displays the lesser of the free spaces in the two heaps as "System Resources." (On the NT kernel, user.exe and GDI.exe have heaps up to the size of physical memory.) Perhaps the Python bindings for wxWidgets use a lot of user.exe and GDI.exe handles.

  87. FTP vs TELNET/SSH by rjch · · Score: 2, Informative
    "Isn't it about time we ditched FTP for something better?"

    Yes, it is. However, SSH has been around for a significant time and still hasn't replaced telnet, even given the horrific security holes in telnet.