Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

NPR's Car Talk Switches Back To RealAudio

Posted by simoniker on from the back-and-forth dept.

taped2thedesk writes "Today, NPR's Car Talk, a 'call in talk [radio] show about car mechanics', announced they were switching back to RealAudio, after dumping it for Windows Media a few months ago. When the show switched to Windows Media, Real took notice and convinced the show to switch back, by addressing various listener complaints about their player (many of which were fixed in RealPlayer 10). The hosts say: 'We believe [Real have] made a serious and successful attempt to address those things that our listeners complained about most... They even offered to serve the audio for free online, which defrays an expense we'd otherwise have to cover.'"

58 of 377 comments (clear)

  1. Don't Cross The Streams by andyrut · · Score: 5, Interesting

    From Real: We think our new RealPlayer 10 is, beyond a doubt, our friendliest and best player yet.

    Nice to know that I can listen to Click and Clack on my computer without being constantly bombarded with pop-ups from a piece of annoyware.

    Oh wait, I've been doing that for weeks thanks to Real Alternative. All the joy of streaming audio without Real's player.

    1. Re:Don't Cross The Streams by t0ny2 · · Score: 5, Informative
      Someone mentioned Real Alternative a few weeks ago. It was a godsend, because I now refuse to install realplayer.

      Another interesting tidbit I came across was that they also have an alternative for the number one buggy movie player, Quicktime (which I likewise refuse to install). Now I can view both formats with none of the buggyness, and also have only one media player to worry about. Less is more.

    2. Re:Don't Cross The Streams by Saucepan · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Real's own consultants warned them well in advance about the long-term consequences of their anti-customer behaviour. Real ignored these warnings, and then ignored the resulting customer outrage for nearly five years as they built up one of the worst cases of company bad-will in software history.

      While I personally am downloading their new software to see if they have learned their lesson, I can hardly fault others for writing this off as too little, too late.

    3. Re:Don't Cross The Streams by spellraiser · · Score: 4, Informative

      This is probably a little offtopic, but what the heck.

      Interestingly enough, Rob Glaser, founder of RealNetworks, has 'crossed streams' with Microsoft. In fact, he was a top executive there before moving on to found RealNetworks.

      So it's little wonder that the battle between Microsoft and RealNetworks is so fierce at times - there are no enemies like old friends.

      --
      I hear there's rumors on the Slashdots
    4. Re:Don't Cross The Streams by snarkh · · Score: 3, Funny
      Nice to know that I can listen to Click and Clack on my computer without being constantly bombarded with pop-ups from a piece of annoyware.

      I thought those guys were a piece of annoyware. Go figure.

    5. Re:Don't Cross The Streams by Filmwatcher888 · · Score: 5, Informative

      For Media Player's replacement, use Media Player Classic.

    6. Re:Don't Cross The Streams by pokeyburro · · Score: 4, Funny

      Nice to know that I can listen to Click and Clack on my computer without being constantly bombarded with pop-ups from a piece of annoyware.

      You think that was bad? I used to listen to them on the radio in the car. You know how hard it is to close a popup on your windshield while keeping your hands at 2 and 10? It's damned hard, I tell you.

      --
      Lately democracy seems to be based on the skybox, the Happy Meal box, the X-box, and the idiot box.
    7. Re:Don't Cross The Streams by cgenman · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Because what Real offers is a codec. Real offers a way to play back video streams encoded in their format. By forcing people to use their player they are trying to overstep the boundaries of the product they are offering, akin to making people put their General Motors (tm) car into a General Motors garage. It's unnecessary, and we shouldn't put up with it.

      And there is a huge difference between pirated software and reverse-engineered software. Piracy is illegal and immoral, reverse-engineering is generally admirable and is afforded the protection of the law. This gives Real competition inside of their own product line. If there had been an alternative like this in 1997, they would have started cleaning up their act a lot sooner.

      If it "hurts" real because they don't receive my e-mail address to spam, my computer to infect (still has a launcher), and my eyeballs to sell on a proprietary music service incompatible with everything else, then good. They should stick to making money by selling the video streaming solutions they are so good at / make so much more money doing.

      --
      The ______ Agenda
    8. Re:Don't Cross The Streams by Cognitive+Dissident · · Score: 4, Informative

      If the hcclnet.nl servers are being slashdotted at the moment, you might try some of the other sources for Real Alternative and Quicktime Alternative such as:

      Free-Codecs.com
      and
      CodecsDownload.com

      These two domains are mirros of each other, and also good source of many video codecs and even some free/OSS media players.

    9. Re:Don't Cross The Streams by dswensen · · Score: 4, Informative

      Go here and click on the "Free RealPlayer" link on the right. Should start your download automatically.

    10. Re:Don't Cross The Streams by dswensen · · Score: 4, Informative

      Two great articles on the sordid history of RealPlayer and their lows can be found here: Real Obnoxious and Real Proof.

      Included are some testimonials from (allegedly) actual Real co. employees.

    11. Re:Don't Cross The Streams by orthogonal · · Score: 4, Insightful

      While I personally am downloading their new software to see if they have learned their lesson, I can hardly fault others for writing this off as too little, too late.

      While I admire the parent poster's fair-mindedness in giving Real another chance, I can't advise anyone else to emulate Saucepan (12098).

      Why can I not? Because several versions of RealPlayer ago, I recall that Real has also claimed that they'd realized their mistakes and that their then-current version wasn't full of annoyances and spy-ware. So, trying, like the parent poster to be impartial and fair-minded, I installed that version -- only to discover that it hid anti-privacy settings deep in its settings UI, and that it attempted to phone home regardless of those settings, and that it hijacked extensions and ran unnecessary processes and in general was ill-behaved.

      And on actually using it, I found that its main UI gave over as much screen real (no pun intended) estate to advertisements as to whatever I was playing, and that it wouldn't start without bombarding me with ads, and that when I actually did play any media with it, the playback quality was abysmal compared to its competitors. Oh, and .... BUFFERING .....

      Real has claimed once too often that it has corrected its excesses for me to spend another half-hour installing it, and another week uninstalling it and resetting all the various settings it mucks with to status quo ante.

      With apologies for invoking Godwin's Law, I've just finished reading William L. Shirer's The Nightmare Years: 1930-1940, in which he recounts reporting on Nazi Germany first for the Chicago Tribune and later for CBS Radio (in fact, Shirer and colleague Edward R. Murrow pretty much pioneered the format used by radio and TV news to this day, of having an "anchor" in one place with correspondents reporting in from the field).

      Naturally, Shirer recounts, as does any history of that period, Adolf Hitler's various speeches, in each of which Hitler would claim his latest territorial demand would be his last: first he wanted nothing more than the Rhineland, then his claims ended with the Austria Anschluss, then absorbing the Sudetenland would settle his claims, then Danzig (Gdansk) and the Corridor, etc., etc. In each speech, Hitler would claim he was working for peace -- and that it could be attained by granting his latest -- and, he claimed, final -- demand.

      Real's actions, while nothing compared to Hitler's of course, do seem to follow the same pattern: we are told that each new version is that last we will need, and that each news version "fixes" Real's anti-social and sneaky behavior. But with each new version, we find that somehow, despite Real's protestations to the contrary, the anti-social behavior remains. I'm sorry, but the little bit of content that can only be played using RealPlayer just isn't worth the aggravation -- or the chagrin of finding, on installing RealPlayer, that I've been tricked once again

      --
      Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
  2. Declarifying the topic... by Monsieur+Canard · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It sounds like Car Talk's Complaint Line Operator, Xavier Breath, earned his paycheck this week.

    Wow. First Microsoft adds a project to Sourceforge and now Real has admitted that not everyone likes being bombarded by pushy bookmarks and shortcuts of unusual size. What next? SCO admiting that maybe they didn't invent sliced bread?

    Seriously though, I'm glad to see that Tom and Ray gave Real a second chance. If it's true that they is dedicated to responding to customer's complaints then this is a good thing for everyone.

    --
    He took a duck to the face at 250 knots.
    1. Re:Declarifying the topic... by ackthpt · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Wow. First Microsoft adds a project to Sourceforge and now Real has admitted that not everyone likes being bombarded by pushy bookmarks and shortcuts of unusual size. What next? SCO admiting that maybe they didn't invent sliced bread?

      Maybe RealPlayer 10 is crammed with Spyware(tm). I mean, if they give away the player and it doesn't blast you with ads and Real is footing the bandwidth for NPR, what's the business model?

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    2. Re:Declarifying the topic... by someguy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Maybe RealPlayer 10 is crammed with Spyware(tm). I mean, if they give away the player and it doesn't blast you with ads and Real is footing the bandwidth for NPR, what's the business model?


      Well, the concerns and responses as addressed on the cartalk website do mention not installing any software that you don't want installed.

      The business model that RealNetworks is fulfilling by footing the bill for the cartalk stream is one where they generate large amounts of good karma with consumers. By getting cartalk to switch back they're going to get the invariably occuring coverage to spread the word about how good those guys over at Real are. In addition, with the cartalk site expounding the changes found in RealPlayer 10 it's showing what's changed to groups of people that were complaining in the first place and re-earning a spot on those users' hard drives for the company's software. Once they've gotten their foot in the door with cartalk listeners it snowballs into more support for a) other sites which use Real feeds and b) more support for the idea of going with Real for streaming audio when a site is confronted with having to decide what format they're going to go with.
      --
      A planet where apes evolved from men? Long live the apes.
  3. Choose wisely... by baudilus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What a choice. DRM Whore or Spyware/Adware hijackery. That's like having to choose whether to be shot in the face or stabbed in the back.

    1. Re:Choose wisely... by Aphrika · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Thing is, Windows Mediaplayer isn't a DRM whore. Sure, it's capable of DRM functions - much like Quicktime, Real and any media format worth it's salt nowadays. And that DRM isn't there for the consumers, it's there to make large corporation use their media player over others because of it's 'secure' features.

      In fact, you strip away the Windows/Apple/Real logos and put the players and capabilities side by side, and they're pretty much like for like. Oh, except for Real's sucky spy/adware...

  4. Personally... by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I liked Real Audio streams back when the Real Audio plugin was an embedded object in the webpage. Same holds true for windows media. I consider this to be a step in the WRONG direction... I dont want a whole app suite firing up, spamming me, just to listen to some audio. My Rant is done.

    --

    "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
  5. What's so hard... by NemosomeN · · Score: 5, Insightful

    About offering multiple streams? It's not like it will cause bandwidth problems (You're only going to be listening to one stream at a time no matter what anyway...). I dunno about liscencing fees, but I do know there are free [beer] alternatives.

    --
    I hate grammar Nazi's.
  6. Media Player Classic by bstadil · · Score: 4, Informative
    Install the Media Player Classic and all the RealPlayer Spyware is a thing of the past.

    If you need a test station may I suggest O'Franken Factor

    --
    Help fight continental drift.
  7. car talk shows online by bstil · · Score: 5, Informative

    The current week's show is available here.

    I know the site used to have archived "favorites" of many, many shows when it was hosted by cars.com. However, I don't see the favorite clips listed anymore...

  8. Other sites making the switch unsuccessfully by slakr · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I subscribe to Liverpool Football Club's liverpoolfc.tv service that provides live streaming audio of all of Liverpool's football (soccer) matches. Based on "user complaints", they switched to Windows Media streaming audio feeds from Real Audio for the first time this weekend. If user comments are any indication, this was a complete failure. Admittedly this was the first major test, but the performance was extremely poor, the audio cut out frequently and the quality of the feed was much poorer than I'm used to.
    I hate the Real bundle-of-everything-I-don't-want-with-the-one-thi ng-I-do software packaging as much as the next person, but I think its well worth it for the superior experience you now get with it. And the improvements since Real 6.0 with its leak-buckets-of-memory-and-crash-Windows issues is significant.

  9. Really, what's Real's business strategy? by GillBates0 · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I would think that Real's main income comes from selling RealServer software to content providers. The other two major players competing with them are ofcourse Microsoft (Windows Media) and Apple (QT) - both of which treat streaming media as a sideshow (Apple even has an opensource streaming server - Darwin).

    On the other hand, Real's reason to exist is streaming media....and admittedly, they had a headstart over the others. But is it really feasible for them to survive based solely on RealServer software sales? I don't think any reasonably sane/not abnoxiously rich person would subscibe to their "Real Gold Superpass" etc.

    I think that's why they were pushing on advertising, popups and spyware with such fervor - that's about the only means of income and existence they have left - without a reliable business plan.

    --
    An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
  10. Re:what are the pluses again? by BrookHarty · · Score: 4, Interesting

    But the real reason is they got free hosting from Real.

    And they even offered to serve the audio for free online, which defrays an expense we'd otherwise have to cover.

    We're in no position to ever turn down generosity, no matter how misguided. So, we took them up on their offer, before they could reconsider.

    Also they mentioned the "Hidden" free player problem. I mentioned it awhile back on slashdot but the trolls came out and said "Its right there!!!" Well, looks even Real admited the free version was hard to find. ;)

    On the issue of the "hidden" free player, they've agreed to provide a direct link from Car Talk to a clear, uncluttered, free player download page. On the issue of pop ups, they tell us they're gone.

  11. It's actually not too bad... by dswensen · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I hate to say this, but after staying far, far away from Realplayer for years (I don't think I've used it since 1999), I finally found something I really, really wanted to listen to online that was RealPlayer only. All the alternatives to RealPlayer seemed like too much of a pain to set up (I'm extraordinarily lazy), so I decided, against my better judgment, to give the new player a download and see how it worked.

    It's actually really not bad at all. The install is fairly short and lets you pick your media types, what shortcuts to install, etc. and unlike old versions of RealPlayer doesn't just DO IT ANYWAY. ("Would you like your homepage changed to real.com?" "No." "Homepage changed!") It doesn't ask for some obnoxious registration, load itself into my start bar, or do any of that other "helpful" BS that made the old RealPlayer such a dog.

    So far it seems to be a small little player that does what it does, and nothing you don't want. Since I still don't really trust Real, I'm waiting for some popup to come up, or wake up one day and find "RealConsole RAM-Fucker Pro" installed on my desktop or something, but so far, nothing.

    But for now, it just plays Realaudio files. What a novel concept for an application. It's actually been pleasant to use. (RealVideo still sucks, though.)

    1. Re:It's actually not too bad... by dswensen · · Score: 4, Informative

      And, FWIW, I ran AdAware on my machine right after installing the latest Realplayer. No spyware installed either as far as I can tell.

    2. Re:It's actually not too bad... by _KiTA_ · · Score: 3, Informative

      I installed it just now, I was pretty clean before -- I use Mozilla not IE, and I run Spybot, and cleaned myself up about Friday, so I should be pretty darn clean.

      Ran SpyBot right now. After a full scan in Advance Mode, nothing except a few cookies.

      Now, I do notice that RealPlayer uses an embedded Internet Explorer window. So if it got a tracker cookie, that would be a red-flag on AdAware. But, so would going to just about any major website on the planet, so... Are you sure that Ad Aware didn't just report a cookie that Real's website spewed out?

    3. Re:It's actually not too bad... by orthogonal · · Score: 4, Informative

      And, FWIW, I ran AdAware on my machine right after installing the latest Realplayer. No spyware installed either as far as I can tell.

      You do realize that the AdAware engine is not psychic, right? Nor does it use a heuristic to identify mal-ware.

      AdAware -- much like a virus checker --, identifies Trojans and ad-ware by "signature", some array of bytes unique to the annoyance in question. Until somebody examines a program, decides it is mal-ware, extracts that program';s signature and adds it to AdAware's signature database, Ad-ware doesn't "know" about it.

      For all we know, Realplayer installs -- or is itself -- mal-ware, but no one from Ad-ware has gotten around to labelling it as such. After all, RealPlayer Ten is rather new.

      And people can legitimately disagree about what is ad-ware: surely RealPlayer has claimed that all its versions of Realplayer did nothing illegitimate, as RealPlayer maintained that it wasn't popping up ads, but "informative messages", and that phoning home uniquely identifying information about its users was a positive benefit for those users.

      Don't misunderstand me: AdAWare is a useful product, but it's no panacea and it -- like a virus scanner -- will unavoidably always be a bit out of date. In the case of RealPlayer, I'd trust RealPlayer's track-record of untrustworthiness.

      --
      Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
  12. Whats next by t0ny2 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Between Real cleaning up their program and M$ putting out opensource, Im going to stock up on blankets- hell should be freezing over shortly.

    1. Re:Whats next by tbone1 · · Score: 5, Funny
      They have internet access in hell?

      Yes, AOL.

      (Okay, that was obvious. Sorry.)

      --

      The Independent: Reverend Spooner Arrested in Friar Tuck Incident - ISIHAC, Historical Headlines
  13. What about the complaint of reporting back to HQ? by geoswan · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Maybe I haven't been keeping up to date. But wasn't there a problem where earlier versions of realplayer were reporting back to headquarters what its users were listening to?

    Does the current version still do this? It is not listed in the user complaints they responded to. Maybe this is the core way they make money. If so I can understand why this might be a complaint they don't want to make changes to please their users.

    But some open-ness about it would be a good thing.

    Or maybe they made this change a long time ago? Well, a lot of us don't hang on their every announcement...

  14. Public Radio should not even use MP3 streams. by bjarvis354 · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Thats funny...I recently wrote a letter to WNYC regarding their choice of the MP3 format for their streaming audio. I would like to know how others feel about this....

    As an avid WNYC listener and member, I applaud the choice to move away from Windows Media format. However, MP3 is a patented format that is not Free (as in Freedom). I am sure that I am in the minority here, but I can't help but feel that in some way I am being slighted. In my opinion, the principles involved in my choice to use Free Software on my computer are much akin to the reasons I choose to listen to Public Radio.

    mp3licensing.com states:

    "A license is needed for commercial (i.e., revenue-generating) use of mp3/mp3PRO in broadcast systems (terrestrial, satellite, cable and/or other distribution channels), streaming applications (via Internet, intranets and/or other networks), other content distribution systems (pay-audio or audio-on-demand applications and the like) or for use of mp3/mp3PRO on physical media (compact discs, digital versatile discs, semiconductor chips, hard drives, memory cards and the like)."

    "However, no license is needed for private, non-commercial activities (e.g., home-entertainment, receiving broadcasts and creating a personal music library), not generating revenue or other consideration of any kind or for entities with an annual gross revenue less than US$ 100 000.00."

    How does this apply to WNYC? I for one prefer not to have my contributions to be used to pay support this kind of thing, when it is against my social and political ideals. Especially when there are free (as in beer and speech) alternatives such as the Xiph project.

    It is my hope to not second guess the current decision to standardize on MP3, but to perhaps begin a dialogue for openness in media formats in the future of public radio. For now I can live with MP3. I will have to compromise and add non-free software to my computer, for now.

    1. Re:Public Radio should not even use MP3 streams. by discogravy · · Score: 5, Insightful
      However, MP3 is a patented format [mp3-tech.org] that is not Free (as in Freedom). I am sure that I am in the minority here, but I can't help but feel that in some way I am being slighted.

      Yeah, they're only using the de facto standard in digitized audio: they must really be out to fuck you over.

      Mp3 has been a standard -- not an agreed-upon standard, but a "well, everyone can listen to it and it works well enough" standard for years; the "decision to standardize on MP3" as you put it, was made ages ago, and just about the only thing that has even come close to putting a dent in mp3 is wma's ubiquitousness and windows not including an mp3 encoder by default (ie, you have to BUY one, because windows media player won't just use LAME -- and 99% of users wouldn't know LAME's use if you explained it to them in 78-point font.)

      --
      FreeBSD for the impatient.
    2. Re:Public Radio should not even use MP3 streams. by bjarvis354 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually...MP3 is not a de facto standard. It is a legit ISO standard.

  15. Ogg Icecast? by steveha · · Score: 4, Informative

    This made me wonder if they even considered going to Ogg Vorbis streaming with Icecast. Whether they considered it or not, it made me wonder how many Icecast streams are available.

    I found a list here:

    http://www.icecast.org/streamlist.php

    Not as many as I had hoped to find.

    steveha

    --
    lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
  16. Re:*nix support at Real by rgammon_real · · Score: 5, Informative
    Check out the Helix Player, an open source Gtk-based player based on the same client core technology as RealPlayer 10
    https://player.helixcommunity.org/

    Downloads are available here:

    MS2.1 had problems playing back non-realaudio/realvideo datatypes -- if you need these, M2 is a better bet.

    Nightly builds are also available -- see the player webpage for details.

    --
    Check out Helix Player
  17. what is wrong with MP3? by mattkime · · Score: 3, Insightful

    let people choose their favorite player

    --
    Know what I like about atheists? I've yet to meet one that believes God is on their side.
  18. Very close to the edge by heironymouscoward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If a mainline vendor like RealNetworks can produce a flagship product that is so close to spyware, consumers can expect rough times ahead.

    It's incredible that a company should have to back down from a series of agressive marketing techniques in this way: it suggests they have either seriously misunderstood their market, or that they are under serious pressure to exploit it harder, even at a high cost in credibility.

    I suspect that it will eventually become standard procedure for software to become fairly agressive in taking over the desktop, uninstalling or crippling other products, redirecting browsers, etc. The techniques currently used by the most evil spyware trojans (like CoolWebSearch) will probably become mainstream as companies look for a way, any way to keep their software visible on the users' desktops.

    Or maybe I'm just being pessimistic.

    --
    Ceci n'est pas une signature
  19. From closed to closed - what's the point? by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 4, Interesting
    What I really don't understand is why people insist on using closed media servers when there are viable free solutions. So Real threw them a bone by waiving the license fee for a while for some goodwill advertising - why are people impressed with getting something for free that they don't have to be paying for in the first place?

    I understand (and sometimes make) the argument that "gratis" doesn't always mean "cheap", since someone has to run the system and in this setting you'd probably have to pay them to do it. Still, the whole reason I love listening to these guys so much is that they are the alpha geeks of the automotive mechanic world. It's not like Tom and Ray are a couple of guys who tinker with cars in their back yard and have no technology background.

    Real Player doesn't come with Windows XP, so you can't use the argument that you don't want to make your users install additional software, since they'll have to anyway. The official answer from NPR is that

    While other media types may offer technical advantages or less restrictive licenses, the conversion and storage of audio files requires considerable time and resources.
    although I'm not quite ready to believe that compressing to Real or WMA format is less costly that compressing to Vorbis.
    --
    Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  20. Streaming Audio by Outosync · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm still suprised mp3 streaming audio hasn't become more popular then Real or WindowsMedia. I have no trouble finding quality open source server software to broadcast live mp3 streams and the bandwidth usage(for me at least) is very acceptable.

    It annoys me that sites like NPR and Air America Radio use Real, not to mention other news sites.
    Thank goodness for RealAlternative :)

  21. Very Good Reason by Hal+The+Computer · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The newest version of RealAudio crashes my computer.
    Completely. Utterly. Requires a hard reset.
    It has the disticntion of being the only peice of software I have ever installed that can do this EVERY TIME I START IT under Windows 2000.
    Does that answer your question?

    --

    int main(void){int x=01232;while(malloc(x));return x;}
    1. Re:Very Good Reason by Ed+Avis · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Mozilla people here and on Bugzilla constantly told me it wasn't Mozilla and that it was impossible for an application to crash Windows 2000
      This is quite right. Well, it's not impossible as you have found, but if it happens it indicates a bug in Windows 2000 or in some device driver. There may be a bug in Mozilla too - but the bug in the operating system or driver is much more serious and should be addressed first. It will probably be much easier to find the bug in Mozilla, if there is one, once the OS or driver bug is fixed.

      Some other examples of the same principle:

      'gcc reliably crashes when building this code' => there is a bug in gcc, not your code;

      'my web browser crashes when viewing this page' => the fault is with the web browser, not the page;

      'my computer crashes when I scroll the mouse wheel in a particular way' => the computer or operating system is faulty, not the mouse.
      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
    2. Re:Very Good Reason by Ed+Avis · · Score: 4, Insightful

      *For you* Mozilla was the application that triggered the OS bug, that does not mean that it was Mozilla's fault. There may well have been a memory leak in Mozilla, however your report that your system crashes does absolutely nothing to help the Mozilla developers debug this. I don't mean to belittle the problem but the sad fact is that a report of 'my particular PC crashes' is of no use to the application developer, unless it's a program that does hardware access or exotic device driver access. It might, however, be helpful to the author of the operating system or device driver, who will have access to the same hardware and may be able to download the application and reproduce the crash.

      I have to ask, in all the time you spent asking the Mozilla developers about this problem, did you do anything to report it to the vendor of the operating system or device drivers you are using?

      "Bug in the graphics driver or Windows' graphics subsytem is rather irrelevant" - no, the bug is in the operating system. It is not irrelevant.

      I'm glad that you were able to stop triggering the OS bug by changing to a newer version of Mozilla, one that is less memory-hungry. I am sure there are many bugs that were fixed in Mozilla that stopped it stressing the system so much. But this means that a chance of fixing the real, underlying bug is lost. It may still exist and be biting some other user running a different application.

      You have a too low opinion of Windows 2000 and an operating system's job. If the machine crashes this indicates either faulty hardware, or faulty operating system (including device drivers). Always.

      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
    3. Re:Very Good Reason by srwalter · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Wow, user apps can crash your OS? Sounds like you shouldn't take out your anger on Real Player just yet.

      --
      Freedom is the freedom to say that 2 + 2 = 4
  22. I already get CarTalk w/o ads or Real -- VCR it! by tmoertel · · Score: 4, Informative
    I built a simple "VCR" for the radio and set it up to record Car Talk, among my other NPR favorites. Now I can listen to Click and Clack whenever is convenient for me, without having to jump through hoops, download proprietary codes, or bother with streaming. Plus, I get a nice archive of shows that I can take with me on road trips:
    car-talk--2004-02-21--Sat--1000.spx
    car-talk--2004-02-28--Sat--1000.spx
    car-talk--2004-03-06--Sat--1000.spx
    car-talk--2004-03-13--Sat--1000.spx
    car-talk--2004-03-20--Sat--1000.spx
    car-talk--2004-03-27--Sat--1000.spx
    car-talk--2004-04-03--Sat--1000.spx

    An old radio, a sound card, and a few shell scripts -- that's all it takes.

    --
    Easy, automatic testing for Perl.
  23. Here's an even better solution by LqqkOut · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Why not just listen to NPR on the radio?!

    Pros

    The worst ad's are sponsorship recognition

    You learn something new every day

    You become more liberal every day

    No spyware

    Supported by most AM/FM radios

    Better news coverage than Fox News

    Less Hollywood gossip induced brain atrophy

    None of that [BUFFERING....] [97%][BUFFERING...] crap!

    Cons

    You still have to listen to the registration notice [Fund Drive] twice a year, even after you've paid the annual support fee! :)

    Friends look at you funny when every other sentance starts with "I heard on NPR that..."

    Screw you ClearChannel, we don't need that poppy Britney, Timberlake, OMG WTF Celeb shit, or the 57 Minute Non-stop Commercial MegaMixes!! Get your spam off of my radio

    Sorry for the rant, Car Talk rulez, keep it real Click & Clack!

    --

    -- In Soviet Russia, radio listens to YOU!

    1. Re:Here's an even better solution by FallLine · · Score: 3, Insightful

      While I agree with much of what you're saying about NPR, namely that it's a far better newsource than anything else on radio or TV right now, its liberal bent is my biggest complaint about it. That, and those Fund Drives. I'm a generous supporter (despite the fact that I disagree with their political biases), but I find that the repetitive talking during the Fund Drives drives me to turn my radio off. It really drives me up the wall. I grant it's probably necessary the way they do business right now, but I'd think they could find some way at least to allow paying users such as myself to avoid it. Perhaps they could offer a two-tier service using satellite radio or something: one free with fund drives and another where you pay some fee to listen...

      Hell, I think even regular old ads would be better. I find them far less disturbing for some reason.

    2. Re:Here's an even better solution by gmaestro · · Score: 3, Insightful
      its liberal bent is my biggest complaint about it

      I know that's the conventional wisdom about NPR, but I just don't hear it. Perhaps it's the case on PHC or some of the other weekend fare, but as for ATC and morning edition (I commute 2 hours every day) it all sounds fairly balanced to me. I don't agree with every opinion expressed, and that's how it should be. And besides, whenever a story is not presented in a completely equal way, some listener is ready to write in explaining the inequity, and then they read the letter on the air.

      I guess my point is, at least they try to be fair, and are ready to air criticism if they are less than fair. I imagine if they really were so liberal, Mr. Franken et al would not feel the need to start their own left-wing radio.

  24. What really made them to go back to Real? by spidergoat2 · · Score: 5, Funny

    I suspect it may have been their Chief Legal Counsel, Hugh Louis Dewey of Dewey, Cheetham & Howe.

  25. mp3 streams by _aa_ · · Score: 3, Informative

    I know NPR is less of a public service than it is a not-for-profit business. And I know it's probably too much to ask for an Ogg Vorbis stream, but I would happily settle for a mp3 stream.

    Luckily the GENIUSES at Science Friday help make it possible by maintaining a rather concise list of NPR streams of various formats, including mp3.

    But these are all localized streams, and likely not localized to your location. Would be nice if there was a national stream available for free in an open format.

    One would think donations from large organizations like Real Media would make it possible to offer MORE choices, not less.

  26. Re:realplayer 8 by BigDumbAnimal · · Score: 5, Informative

    This is an excellent site for problems like realplayer

  27. Doing everything right by _KiTA_ · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Let me get this straight.

    1. They start working heavily with the open source community through Helix, including making a free Linux player that handles real (which, btw, is probably where the people who made the Real Alternative got the material to make the codecs).
    2. They remove the bloat and ads from their software as a direct result of people's complaints. Not only that, they let you turn off all their popups. Name 3 other free closed source softwares that allow you to do that.
    3. They're working with the Doom9 community, which is probably the biggest internet community about audio/video matters.

    And none of this is good enough? Christ, that's as pig-headed as idiots who keep chanting that Linux is just a hobbiest server OS and will never be useful on the desktop.

    For the record, I hated Real too, but since they seem to be genuinely giving it a real effort, I figured I'd give them another try. So I downloaded and installed Real 10 just now. Fiding the free download off their website was trivial -- it was in big bold blue letters on the side of their downloads page. Who would have trouble finding *that*? Yah, it's not as big as the big graphic showing their pay version, but hey, they have employees to pay. Get over it.

    Install was easy -- It did ask to take over all my media files, but I just turned them off, then went into advanced, and turned on DVD playback for Real -- Real does a much better job on DVDs than WMP, for sure. Only other annoyance during install was they asked me to register. This is not unlike other media players that I use regularly, so I did. A quick click to turn off the popups from their quick-launch app, and I'm done. Not exactly the nightmare of previous Real installations.

    So yeah. I can see people complaining about Real because of what they did in the past, but jesus, they're giving it an honest effort here, and remember, any time Real wins, Microsoft LOSES. =)

  28. RealPlayer is a commercial virus. by mypenwry · · Score: 5, Insightful

    RealPlayer is a commercial virus. No matter how much they have changed it, no matter if they crawl across broken glass to kiss my feet and beg me, I won't ever install it again!

    If my only option for a site serving streaming media is RealPlayer, I will just skip on by and not watch / listen. There are too many alternatives on the web; I can always find somethign as good or better that won't force me to install RealPlayer.

    RealPlayer lost my trust a long time ago and there are too many options that are far more consumer-friendly for me to bother to give them a second chance.

    Fuhgettaboutit.

  29. Re:realplayer 8 by Cognitive+Dissident · · Score: 3, Informative

    You can install Real Alternative with RealPlayer 8 installed and it can find the new codecs. At least it did with version 1.20 when I first tried it. So yes, you can have the latest formats with the relatively non-spammy older player. Realizing I didn't have to put up with even the periodic "Upgrade Now!" spasms if I just used the included Media Player Classic I removed it and used Microsoft's own 'RegClean' to make sure it was gone.

    Another happy Real Alternative User!

  30. Don't Cross The Streams - A More Complete Thought by BRock97 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Egon: It would be bad.

    Venkman: I'm fuzzy on the whole good-bad thing. Whattya mean "bad?"

    Egon: Try to imagine all media players as you set them up stopping instantaneously and every file association on your computer exploding at the speed of light.

    Ray: Total protonic reversal....

    Venkman: Right, that's bad...OK.. important safety tip. Thanks, Slashdot.

    --

    Bryan R.
    The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, or $12.50 as seen on eBay.....
  31. If you have not actually TRIED real 10... by Danathar · · Score: 4, Informative

    So I was like EVERYBODY else. I hated Realone...I hated the ads...I hated the fact that it felt like they were trying to "sneak spyware" onto my computer.

    So I tried Real 10. So far...no crashes, and if you disable the browser feature it's JUST AS FAST AS REAL 8...and for any of you that ACTUALLY have an open mind and want to try it, here is information from the Helix community forums on how to optimize Real 10.

    >
    >
    > I work for RealNetworks, and I am the first to admit RealPlayer is not my favorite media player. For video, Media Player Classic (MPC) is, and yes, I use MPC to play my RV9-EHQ aka RV10 content.
    >
    > Previous RealPlayers have been pretty impolite to put it mildly, and along with so many other computer users, I have been ticked off by its behaviour in many ways. It has been possible to make it well mannered, but it has included being forced to delete certain files to prevent that annoying Message Center. However, it has not been spyware in a long time, even though one old player did send back some usage information. That's long gone, but it's hard to be forgiven for that mistake.
    >
    > Considering how past players have created such a bad reputation, this post is probably futile, but anyway... Thanks to those few positive posts though, especially for the Linux and OS X players. It is nice to see someone taking the time to give it a another chance.
    >
    > This RealPlayer 10 is better than before, it is fast, small, and does not run +10MB services in the background, like one well known example, name withheld. However, this post is not really about performance, even though a lot could be said about improvements in this area. More importantly in this discussion, it is also better in terms of its behaviour, albeit less better than me, many of my co-workers, and all of you, had hoped for.
    >
    > Here's what you need to do when installing:
    >
    > * Choose Custom Install
    > * Uncheck all the boxes you don't like for stuff on the desktop and quicklaunch bar. There is nothing hidden by a scroll bar, at least not with my computer screen size.
    > * Check only the media types you want it to play. This is the only time you will be asked this, it will never try to take back any media types. Now, is this really so bad compared to other software, in regards to media types? It's not as polite as MPC, but I have other media players which take over media types, and there is not even an option to customize this..
    > * Start RealPlayer, you may have to create an account. Everybody hates this, and wish it would go way. Agreed, but RealNetworks has to make money somehow, and the number of users is a needed measure to document. So use fake information if you like.
    > * Then go to Tools->Preferences->Automatic Services, Click Configure Message Center, then uncheck "Check for new messages". Click OK on the "warning" that comes up. Now you will never be bothered by the Message Center. In previous versions, you could not disable the Message Center completely, without deleting certain files. Minor improvement, it's still opt-out, but at least it's possible. Check or uncheck Auto-update in its sub-menu as well.
    > * Go to Tools->Preferences->General and set On startup display to "Player only". That way, no browser, and it starts much quicker.
    >
    > So to summarize, a few clicks are needed to opt-out, you have to "sign in" the first time. Yes, somewhat annoying, but that's about it. It could have been better, but compared to many other examples, it's not that terrible. Since it has been so very bad in the past though, it clearly should have changed more to make a shining example, but since it is RealNetworks' main vehicle for generating revenue, there is a lot of nervousness about changing things too quickly.
    >
    > Download the free RealPlayer 10 Beta here, with no re-direction or sales tricks:
    >
    > http://www.real.com/freeplayer/?rppr=slashdot [real.com]
    >
    > A

  32. Good News Garage by vortigern00 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The Car Talk guys own a garage in Cambridge, MA, and that is where I had my car serviced when I was a grad student at (I shall not speak the name of the evil institution).

    The guys in the shop were not what you usually expect a mechanic to be. What I saw in those guys was the same thing I see in my propeller-headed software engineer colleagues. They were car hackers.

    The most interesting visual in my memory was the heavy bearded guy welding a muffler with safety glasses on his face (i.e. no face mask) and a cigar hanging out of his mouth, talking about the physics of engine compression and how it is related to the exhaust system.

  33. Talking Car Radio? by KlomDark · · Score: 4, Funny

    My friend got a voice-activated car radio.

    You say "Rock", you get the rock station.

    You say "Country", you get the redneck station.

    You say "Classical", you get Beethoven and friends.

    The other day, he was driving around and two kids ran right out in front of his car.

    He screamed "Fucking Kids!"

    The radio started playing Michael Jackson...