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Real Problems
Universal Nerd writes "Could Real be its own downfall? According to 'Find the Download in a Haystack', it could be. The difficulty folks have in reaching the free version of RealPlayer is forcing Minnesota Public Radio to look towards Windows Media Player as an alternative. I prefer good old MP3 or OGG streaming like the feeds offered at WCPE but I'm sure no 'serious' company would consider it because they don't have their digital rights preserved." See the CarTalk story from yesterday.
Hey, I might get my first ever first po... BUFFERING.........
Good. I hate Real Player. It's always been the most annoying player out there. Downloading a copy is a bitch (although they've made it somewhat easier recently), that Real Message Center is annoying as hell.
The message here for Real should be really simple. Make your player as easy to get as possible. Require two clicks to download. Content is King. Annoying software is not. Give me a real reason to register. Look at how sites like slashdot and fileplanet work.
Casual Games/Downloads
It plays Real files, and if you download the K-Lite Mega Codec Pack, everything else too (Quicktime, Divx, Ogg, etc.).
It also includes Media Player Classic, which is a very nice player that picks up where Windows Media Player 6 left off.
I thinkitwas quite simple - just search the samllest link, somewhere at the bottom.
OGG/MP3 do not remove your rights. Lets me clear.
That people copy (and it's easy with Real and WMP - play it out through line out and record it in whatever you wish) mp3/ogg does not affect "their rights"
You besides having one of the most annoying install processes in the history of computers, hijacking functions the user had no intention of having Real handle, shoving registration down your throat with tons of opt-outs rather than opt-ins, having obtrusive background programs running even when you tell them not to...
I think not being able to find the download link was the best part about it.
I believe that it has been more complicated in the past, but it's not particularly difficult (unlike searching Slashdot for a particular story).
The most pertinent point is the Real-NPR deal. If the clickthrough for public radio listeners is making a free download difficult, then NPR has a legitimate complaint. Their users want a convenient and inexpensive way to access content. If Real can't accomodate, then screw them.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
I second the recommendation of Real Alternative. Also, grab Quicktime Alternative and Media Player Classic. But codec packs? Hell NO! I learned much about codecs (and formatting and reinstalling) after I installed one of those godawful monstrosities. My advice is install a codec when you need it for the first time, and leave it at that. That K-Lite thing should be classified as a virus.
The hiding of the free player
The non-standard installer
The annoying "messages" that cannot be turned off
are all reasons why people don't use their product any more. If they woke up and smelled the coffee, they could easily win back market shares.
about video streaming, Real is about the best one can get. The quality is less than average, but it comes at ridiculously low amounts of bandwidth. A 1.5h show compressed to 100M, in quality that is still acceptable, full 15-min cartoons that fit in some 10M files, this is what I haven't seen elsewhere. I'd hate to see Real be gone.
In the other hand, Real could go open-source with all their client software and provide their existing infrastructure to host some web TV and radio stations, for a fee. This could encourage many people to accept RealMedia as a standard, seriously extending Real's market share, while not killing their profit.
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
What about some standards, MPEG 4 is very standarized and should be used. Quicktime plays it, IIRC Real also plays it so people have choices of what player they can use.
Sorry but mp3 streams better and is widely accepted. hell windows 98 wil play a mp3 stream out of the box without extra software...
and somepne please explain to me the justification of "preserving digital rights" on a freely downloaded mp3??? that's like a sales flyer maker getting pissed that someone is taking the flyer he made for a special sale and bitching that someone made 100 copies of his sales flyer and gave them to other people... What? you dont want free redistribution and promotion??? that is plain silly..
shoutcast works great, and is damned cheap to host/ licensing fees....
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
You now, that always pisses me off when it does that. I wish NPR would allow us to just download a WAV file or something! Maybe there's some sort of copyright issues involved with just having a file for download.
I have a dial-up and I don't like tying up my phone line for an hour or so to listen to a program that's not offered in my area (Science Friday) or to listen to a show I missed.
Aside from the occasional show I listen to, Broadband still isn't worth it for me - just in case any of you were to suggest DSL or something.
I prefer good old MP3 or OGG streaming like the feeds offered at WCPE but I'm sure no 'serious' company would consider it because they don't have their digital rights preserved."
This argument is rubbish. Anything you can stream you can record (using Audacity or similar) and save; for that matter, anything broadcast over the airwaves you can record.
Ultimately any form of broadcast/webcast can be converted to mp3/ogg with very little work. NPR should do everyone a service (that's why they're around, to do a public service) and just give us the mp3's/oggs.
After hearing all the bad things about downloading real player, I decided just now to start the download process of the free version to see how bad the website actualy was.
I went to the website and glanced around for about 5 seconds, then clicked the link that said download. The next page was slightly confusing for about three seconds, before i saw the segment that said 'download free version'. Clicked that, then started my download.
No problem for me.
After reading some of the positive feedback on the newest Real free player in the last story about this (the Car Talk one), I decided to give it another shot. The last time I thought about installing Real's player (probably a year or two ago), the whole process was so obnoxious that I gave up long before finishing the installation.
However, to the best of my ability to figure it out, the new, less-obnoxious Real player must not have been ported to OS X yet. The free player I downloaded was still as obnoxious as ever, and I once again gave up before even letting it install itself enough for me to check the version number.
Where are the quicktime feeds? O:)
Their product was good up to and including RealPlayer G2. But now it sucks. And their product sucking has nothing to do with Microsoft. It has to do with being managed by people who do not understand what the users want.
The only reason I still suffer with RealPlayer in any form is MIT's OpenCourseware. The RealPlayer client has always been a PITA and Real has always been it's own worst enemy. They had more than half a decade of opportunity. Microsoft's Media Player has done nothing exceptional; just suck a lot less.
Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
This is RIDICULOUS! In one corner, we have Microsoft. 'Nuff said. In another, we have Apple-- QuickTime players for Mac OS/Mac OS X and Windows, and "grey market" potentially-DMCA-illegal playing via MPlayer. In another corner, we have Real, who SUCK in every way possible.
.AU for all I care. AND NO ONE USES ANY OF THIS STUFF.
.wma file, but .wma has been extinct for a dozen years, and the only program that will open it will be Foobleblatz(R) AudioMasher Pro(TM), a pro-level audio editing tool "with support for over 500 current and previous codecs and encoding formats", for the equivalent of $999.95 2004 dollars?
... god, it's going to be a nightmare. The nightmare is already beginning, in fact...
And then, in the virtually ignored fourth corner, we have the stuff that isn't totally assraped by big (or not so big, in Real's case) corporations. MP3. Ogg. Freaking gzipped
No, we have two choices: (1) Run Windows and/or Mac OS X and download some spyware-riddled bloatware from Apple, Real (ugh) or Microsoft (DOUBLE ugh), or (2) run any other OS and use a probably-illegal tool like MPlayer. (Oh, MPlayer isn't illegal, you say? Who the hell are you kidding? At the first nastygram from any big patent-wielding corporation, MPlayer's going bye-bye. As far as I'm concerned, thanks to our pal the DMCA, it's just another DeCSS waiting to happen.)
This is FREAKING RIDICULOUS. Who benefits from any of this? It doesn't even seem as if MS and Apple benefit. Certainly, the "consumer" slash "end-user" slash "listener" doesn't.
This is fucking asinine. I am getting truly disgusted by all of this ridiculous pushing of proprietary standards. SCREW THIS. What will happen in 20 years when someone needs to open a
Audiovisual works are our cultural legacy. And we're blindly allowing corporations to seal up the standards used to encode these works to digital form. What the fuck is our problem? "Consumer groups" and publications like Consumer Reports should be screaming for open standards... but they don't even know or care what the problem is... Nor will they until around 2010 or so, when they try to play their old files and find that they can't...
Imagine if Gutenberg's printing press was available only on license from Gutenberg Ltd., and that everything it printed used a special ink completely invisible unless you wear the patented Gutenberg Glasses(R), available for a MERE sum of 10 shillings. Think that sounds ridiculous? We're doing the very same thing today. Eventually, "dead tree" media will die, and the media used to replace it will be completely corporate-controlled, proprietary, and
Honey, I shrunk the Cygwin
Similarly, I used to think chopsticks originated in Asia, at least until someone made me aware of their creation as an enticing gimmick by immigrant restaurant owners in American mining communities in the 1800s and subsequent exportation to the Far East as a unique dining tool.
This is offtopic - but are you sure about that?
A quick google search yields many sites that report otherwise...
A lot of companies seem to feel that if people aren't listening to their advertisements, they should make their advertisements louder... if people aren't paying attention to their advertisements, they should make them more intrusive... if people aren't buying the upgrade, they should nag them oftener.
When my son was three years old, he used to act the same way. If you didn't pay attention to him, he thought the answer was to yell. Or pester. Or throw a tantrum.
My three-year-old was wrong.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
I went to try to download a Flash plug-in from Macromedia for Mozilla (back before the plug-in auto-install stuff was standardized in 1.4), and found that the download page was, logically enough, a Flash animation that I couldn't actually view in order to get the plugin.
"But remember, most lynch mobs aren't this nice." (H.Simpson)
-- Joe
We used to have a Apache proxy server running on campus that allows authenticated off-campus users access to on-campus electronic resources. When users have their proxy server settings set in their browser (IE) to point at our proxy server, installing Realplayer will take these settings and use it for itself. From looking at the Apache log, it looks like Realplayer will try to *phone home* about once every 10 seconds...since it can't auththenticate through the proxy server.
The logging of the Realplayer requests must have taken about 5-10% of the entire proxy log... It was a Real pain to look at the log for something when every few lines was a realplayer phone home request.
Fortune Cookies. He's talking about fortune cookies. Fortune cookies are largely a Western invention. He's just confused.
Thalasar
I'm sure "Best video and audio quality ever" means "Best video and audio quality ever in a RealPlayer product". That is, they're comparing Real Player 10 to Real Player 9 and earlier, not to WMA, OGG or any other competitor.
At some point people are going to have to accept the fact that digital data is copyable and you cannot change that.
Accepting this fact will let them move on to a business model that uses copying and free distribution to make a profit.
Perhaps shameless "Wayne's World" style product placement?
Perhaps old early TV style adds done by the personalities?
Then tell your advertisers, "we had X downloads and our projections say they will share it Y number of times."
"Now pay us for X+Y viewers."
I don't know about the different colors part. I can just see it now:
Premium = red text on purple icon on white background
Free = white text on white icon on white background
I prefer good old MP3 or OGG streaming like the feeds offered at WCPE but I'm sure no 'serious' company would consider it because they don't have their digital rights preserved.
Do a Google search for "Net Transport". Only runs on Windows, AFAIK, but it allows you to download almost all MMS (WM) and RTSP (Real) streams. Not exactly easy to use (unless you use MSIE, in which case it integrates seamlessly - But personally, I'd rather suffer through it's awkward interface than use MSIE), but it works.
Also, you might want to look into Real Alternative and QuickTime Alternative. These don't always work, but when they do, you get to play the content through WMP classic (6.something), which doesn't disable the "save" option.
Finally, for those difficult newer QuickTime streams, set your TMP and TEMP environment variables to a network share on a Linux box - Although Windows will lock the files so you can't copy them, Linux won't honor that lock (meaning, from a shell on the Linux box, you can just watch as the file appears, wait for it to finish, then copy it to "blah.mov" to keep a copy.
And, AFAIK, none of these violate the DMCA. Simply by virtue of having the ability to play such files over the net, you already have "access" to them. This just enhances the flexibility of what you do with that access.
Okay, I've shared my Tips of the Day... Now, anyone know a way to save RealOne streams? I have yet to find a way to do so...
The Helix player (which is somehow subsidiary to Real) handles RealPlayer 10 files and is open source. Here is a link to their web page.
Oh, MPlayer isn't illegal, you say? Who the hell are you kidding? At the first nastygram from any big patent-wielding corporation, MPlayer's going bye-bye. As far as I'm concerned, thanks to our pal the DMCA, it's just another DeCSS waiting to happen.
Just because the US legal system is owned by big corporations doesn't mean the rest of the planet is in the same mess as the US. I see no credible threat to my use of mplayer. I don't live in the US and I didn't download it from the US and for that matter, it wasn't developed in the US.
The rest of your comments seemed sensible.
There is a Windows Media Player for Mac OS X and 9 that, like its RealPlayer for OS X counterpart, has few annoying "features' that appear in their Windows counterparts. Generally speaking, Mac users can use the streams from the major sites like NPR unless the streaming site has intentionally identified the Macintosh browser or player and refuses access, whether the stream is compatible or not.
WMP for Mac's streaming ability works fine. But this player, unlike the one built-in with Windows, only plays WMA streams and files, and lacks the iTunes-ish MP3 player features.
Of course, aside from the free RealPlayer (which, if you look at this link on a Mac browser that IDs itself as a Mac browser shows a simple link in the right corner to the free RealPlayer), there is QuickTime, which also plays streams well, but there are few sites that use it (one is Cartoon Network's Star Wars: Clone Wars site).
Vos teneo officium eram periculosus ut vos recipero is.
It was on display on the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard."
Sorry... It just reminded me so much of that quote.
...from the article:
"Jeff Chasen, general manager of desktop players for RealNetworks, said the company has made "great strides" in redesigning the download page to make it easy for people to find what they want right away.
"We're working on improving that page and working to get people what they want as much as possible," he said. "It's tricky. We have to offer both somehow."
Here's how you do both, Jeff. Clearly label the free player. Clearly label the one that costs money. Let the user choose which one he wants.
Soon you'll start seeing Message Center popups. You'll get random notices that a new version of Real is available. You'll get spurious requests to register.
Oh yeah, then go "uninstall" it. That will appear to remove it. Then later you'll get Message Center popups.
Then go remove any reference to Real from HLMS\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run. You'll still periodically see crap.
.sigs are for post^Hers.
I have to say that for everything that I feel Microsoft has done wrong, they really have done pretty well by windows media player in terms of streaming content. I used Windows Media for most of the streams that have it and I'm on a Mac. I don't have to worry about pop-ups, banners, or any of the other annoying set up things that I do with RealPlayer and almost everyone is carrying a Windows Media Stream. I still think that Windows Media is inferior to iTunes for downloadable music and content, but that's another discussion.
:-D
For streaming radio and television - I really prefer windows media. Now if I could just find a way to stream windows media files from Linux....
I wonder if they know how to take a hint over there...
no@no.no already has an account.
nono@no.no already has an account.
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nononono@no.no already has an account.
no@no.no.no already has an account.
nono@no.no.no already has an account.
nonono@no.no.no already has an account.
nononono@no.no.no already has an account.
no.no@no.no already has an account.
no.no.no@no.no already has an account.
At the first nastygram from any big patent-wielding corporation, MPlayer's going bye-bye. As far as I'm concerned, thanks to our pal the DMCA, it's just another DeCSS waiting to happen.
Um, you do know that Mplayer is made by a merry band of coders from Hungary, don't you? They have a great deal less regard for US copyright concerns than Norway.
I share some of your concerns but I don't think this is one we really need to worry about. In fact if by some perversion of nature, law and justice F/OSS were to be banned in this country it would move to places like Hungary and Taiwan, and flourish there. And yes, it would make criminals out of a lot of us.
Someone you trust is one of us.
And what the heck did it do exactly? I've installed the k-lite mega codec pack on no less than 10 computers, and NEVER had a problem. In fact, I carry it on my USB keychain drive, just in case.
It's a very convenient way to get the most used codecs and even some of the more obscure ones.
As broadband becomes more prevalent the tech I.Q. of the average user drops. I really hate to blame the BOFFs (wait, no I don't!) but sometimes a little common sense and a little reading go a long way.
Most folks don't read web pages anymore. They look at the bright and shiny widget graphics and click away, click click click until they are "Somewhere They Don't Want to Be" TM or can't figure out where they missed the boat. As it sits now, hit up real.com and you are literally two clicks away from downloading the free player. I think I installed it a few days ago before this news item hit, and believe it was three or four, but still no big deal. Now, had I not read the links I was clicking, or clicked blazing MEDIA PLAYER graphics that were on display I'm sure I would have gone down a more difficult path, and cause me many more clicks to get the free one.
Remember, it's Real's right to sell their premium player. We don't have to like it, and we don't have to buy it. Frankly, I'm surprised they even still offer a free version. They can set their site up however they want to encourage downloaders to buy the premium player as opposed to the freebie. I've visited sites that offer free applications and have done a much better job of hiding the goodies behind the curtain than real.com.
And to say they shouldn't sell their application at all and just subsidize it's expense off the greenbacks of the server side applications is just crazy. Even the free player is more than a simple "viewer" that other companies give away (Adobe, Crystal Reports, Microsoft). It's an actual full blown application. The premium player also offers content that costs money.
I just downloaded and installed the "free" player... Wouldn't be surprised if they recently changed their site to make it easier to download the free version.
The problem that I saw was that it tried to take over my machine:
1. It wanted to change my registry defaults so that real would be the player for any and all media that I use (.mp3,
2. It wanted to put icons everywhere (startup, taskbar, etc.)
3. It asks for a bunch of personal information (WTF? Why do I need to give them that so that I can play their files? Should be illegal.)
Any newbie would be too scared to not change all of their defaults, not put icons everywhere, and not give out their personal information. It doesn't matter if the "free" Real is now easier to install. The player takes advantage of the fact that most people don't understand that all of the above tasks are completely optional. The only free media player out there is MPlayer, and that's the one I'll be using from now on. Let me go and listen to my music in peace.
The Death Penalty: Killing people to show others that killing people is wrong.
You can always use the reserved (and therefore hopefully nullrouted) example.com domains as described in RFC 2606, eg info@example.com
"A senior engineer from Real explains how to get RealPlayer 10 to act nicely on one's system." Explain to me why a "senior engineer" is needed to help us make the Real player work properly (by properly I mean in a simply and unobtrusively)? It is refreashing to find that other people are as annoyed with the "hide the free player" game that Real has been playing -- I thought I was the only one.
Actually, some radio stations do. One of my favorites, WLS, in Chicago, offers streaming in Windows Media, Real, and recently they added MP3. They are a very big and popular AM station, they claim they are the most listened to AM talk station on the internet. So there is at least one very large, or serious, company that is willing to use MP3.
Of course, one company doesn't mean everyone is willing, but it certainly is a start. I expect this is easier for talk radio because they own the rights to everything they broadcast (syndication aside) so they are free to let people copy it at will. Of course, a music station has to make an attempt to prevent copying, so even though it would be nice, I don't see them using MP3 or OGG ever.
Hockey - Canada's gift to the world
At home I have an FM alarm clock radio tuned to NPR, with the headphone jack plugged in to my sound card's line-in jack. At the appropriate time, a scheduler program starts recording from the line-in jack and encoding to an mp3 file in my p2p client's "Shared files" folder. Thus every NPR program is available to me in mp3 format as soon as it goes out over the air. And they are worried about their digital media rights? The horse is out of the barn folks.... let it go.
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
I was just mulling over the thought of installing the new Real Player to see if they got over the insane tentacleware complex they seem to have given RP9. According to the reviews on download.com, apparently not. Looks like it'll continue to be Real Alternative for me!
-R
Please call or e-mail Minnesota Public Radio, and let them know why you think an open format should be used for streaming content. Here's some reasons I can think of:
* It's pulbic radio, it's funded by taxpayers and supporters, so it's a public resource. All the content should be freely available using open standards
* Open standards like MP3 are supported by the most applications
* Open standards like MP3 are best supported across platforms
* Free software can be used to implement streaming
* They will support the good will of the technically astute in their audience, who are also a source of funding
* Any other good ideas? Here's the contact info, from their web site:
EMAIL
mail@mpr.org
TELEPHONE
General Inquiries: 651-290-1212 or 800-228-7123
An MPR Member/Listener Services associate will answer your call between 8:30 am and 5 pm CT Monday-Friday. Beyond those hours, you may leave a message and your call will be returned within two business days.
MPR Newsroom line: 651-290-1424
News releases may be faxed to the newsroom at 651-290-1295. News tips may be e-mailed to newsroom@mpr.org. E-mail addresses for individual reporters may be found on the newsroom look-up page.
Midmorning or Midday call-in shows: 651-227-6000 or 800-242-2828
We are not able to include emails to shows in progress. If you would like to leave comments for Midmorning, call 651-290-1171.
MAIL
MPR Member/Listener Services
45 East Seventh Street
Saint Paul, MN USA 55101
MEDIA INQUIRIES
Andrea Matthews, 651-290-1303 or amatthews@mpr.org
Suzanne Perry, 651-290-1276 or sperry@mpr.org
LS
There is a fine line between being a cultivated citizen and being someone else's crop. - A. J. Patrick Liszkie
While we're at it, where is the download for a free version for Sun Solaris?
/tmp and reentering it from a menu) usually don't work anymore.
The last one I was able to find was 6.0.4.216 (Beta), on their "community supported" subsection, which I installed in May of 1999.
Darned thing doesn't support most of the stream casting sites these days, and even the workarounds that used to work (digging the URL out of the file droppings in
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
The pot calling the kettle black.
I couldn't find the Linux download in the hastack for Windows Media or Quciktime. Real: 1, MS, Apple: 0.
At some point at Real, someone noticed they had a payware player and a freeware player. "Hey, maybe if we hide the freeware one, people will buy the payware!" That's real ethical guys. Maybe you'll trick a few people (a lot of people) into paying $29.99 for NOTHING, but I guarantee no one will pay ever again. Quicktime has the right idea with licencing if you ask me. Real is a trashy piece of spyware that contributes nothing to the Internet as a whole. I'd like to see an open standards audio streaming solution be used, but at this point I would just settle for seeing Real file for Chapter 11. (Coming any day now).
this sig limit is too small to put anything good h
i have no legs.
This "only 3425 clicks away from the home page" stuff is baloney. Why not use http://www.real.com/freeplayer/?rppr=slashdot ?
Yeah, and a search for "Real Player ate my dog" comes up 119,000 hits.
Does that mean that there are 119,000 instances of people discussing Real Player eating their dogs?
Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes. --E. W. Dijkstra
RealNetwork's fundamental mistake is in trying to control their users, and being slippery in dealing with their users. Everyone understands that they need to make a buck or two to stay in business. But that doesn't mean it's ok to extricate consumers from the driver's seat. Many companies have figured out how to sell with integrity -- why not Real? Examples are Google (Adwords), Salon (Click-through ads or pay subscriptions) and the DivX video codec(3 versions / models) all of which allow users to easily make an informed choice.
I can find it pretty easily, but I know what I'm looking for. I know that it's there. I know that I'm going to have to look for the right link. Most people don't have these advantages. It's the same story at DivX.com, or even QuickTime. There's people that believe they're watching movies illegally because they aren't using QuickTime Pro.
But enough with them - Real has always been the worst offender here. And I'm not suggesting they're bad people, just stupid.
Real could have been a contender, but they couldn't decide on a business model - sell client or sell server - so decided to try selling both. You just can't do that - you have to get one, and use it to get the other.
Maybe have a sideline selling a fancy client, but your bread and butter is getting your client installed everywhere and then milking content providers. Look at the success of MacroMedia. They made it "dead easy" to install Flash, and it pretty much just isn't an issue for most users. Their good plan, and decent software, means they're making money.
Let's not stir that bag of worms...
...match any documents.
e =utf-8&oe=utf-8&q=%22Real+Player+ate+my+dog%22
You sure?
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&i
Rocket science is easy. Neurosurgery, now *that's* difficult.
Er, remove the quotes. I put the query in quotes to separate it from the rest of the text. My mistake.
Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes. --E. W. Dijkstra
the acrobat reader ... does what it is supposed to and nothing more
I wouldn't say that Acrobat reader does only what it's supposed to do. It's one hell of a resource hog. Upgrading from Acrobat 5, I find that 6 takes approximately 3X the time to load because of all of the default (read: useless) plugins.
Fortunately, you can disable most of the unused features and get it almost as fast as previous versions.