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A Babe in Tuxland
Joe Barr writes "This is the kind of story that WagEd and MS would love to see in one of their astroturf campaigns. But this story is real grassroots, with a real Sysadmin writing it and a real granddaughter as the babe using Linux. A sweet tale, with tips on Linux for kids." Newsforge and Slashdot are both part of OSDN.
Tux babies, not Tux babes
-Colin
OK, how many people here were expecting someone, you know, kinda hot?
SHE'S FOUR YEARS OLD! HAVE YOU NO DECENCY ?!
-roy
Man, I love this. This is the kind of thing I dream about at night, this is total evangelist fodder (can that be used in a good way?)
Like everyone else I've got alot of old hardware that Windoze won't run on - but you can run Open Office, Mozilla on top of KDE/GNOME on a Pentium I and it'll work for kids quite well. No need to upgrade and shell out additional cash. And hey KDE Games are GREAT for kids..and they're free!!!
... like Linux's built-in features to prevent K.D. from accidentally finding sites that aren't age-appropriate, or at least haven't been pre-approved by Mom and Dad.
b.g.
Yea, that's great. And when she starts having trouble you can just tell her to RTFM!
... have got me slightly worried. Slightly.
Hate me!
The whole idea behind this setup is taking the time to put the system-important screens outside of the 4-year-old's view, so therefore she could click around the screen and even get to the web without getting into much trouble.
A Windows-expert parent could set up Windows to be the same way. The key thing to having a kid be able to use a computer without breaking it is having a smart admin as a parent.
"My four-year-old granddaughter, K.D., hasn't had any trouble figuring it out, and if she can do it, you can too."
/. community).
User Intelligence:
Boss with MBA 4-year-old girl
Seriously, though - kids learn at some incredible rates. They pick up language, new skills, etc. so much faster than adults. We often have to fight through a lifetime of doing something one way in order to do it a "better" or just plain newer way.
BTW, the article is chock full of acronym hell if you're not pretty familiar with Linux (not so worried about the
These Linux tots better start their paper-routes and set up their lemonade stands early: Darl's going to be on his way to take their candy money.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
A pre-schooler using a computer, I can't fathom that! Come on, seriously, why is this such a big deal? When I was two I could use a Commodore Vic20. That included plugging in cartridges, using the tape drive, and loading programs... Just like Dad and without a login.
Almost a year ago my (at the time) 4 year old cousin was visiting my parent's house while I was in town. She asked for the laptop and fired up IE. She was on her favorite website (I don't remember what it was, Blues Clues?) in seconds. She knew the URL, she knew exactly where she wanted to navigate to, and she didn't need my help... I was utterly confused by the flashing, moving, and colorful icons. I couldn't discern what was clickable and what wasn't. She knew and that's all that mattered.
Now... If I sat her down in front of a Linux machine w/KDE installed and told her "this is the IE icon" (or however she understood it) you don't think she would be able to do the same thing?
This article reeked of parental excitement. Their child was interested in using the computer!!!
Kids know computers... I realize that they are saying that KDE is easy enough for a child to use... Anything in X was that easy. It's the rest of Linux that isn't so easy.
She was shoving the system tools off, "out of sight out of mind"... It's not so easy for a regular user of a system to do that. You might actually have to deal w/something on the computer if you aren't 2 years old.
Linux is getting there but it certainly isn't as easy as they seem to be making it out to be. I wish it were but it's not and while I believe in advocating its use to everyone that might benefit from it, I don't think insulting people by saying "My two year old can use it, so can you" is the best way to go.
Seriously though the issue is - how easy is Linux/Windows/MacOS/any other software if you don't have a handy guru to help you configure and then support you when it goes wrong?
The issue is not how easy a kid finds it when their dad is a software guru (though it's kinda cute, my Apple-crazy friend's 4 year old son is similar), but how Joe Public, who has no software engineer friends, finds setup and maintenance and patching.
and her last names starts with an E ? That would be rather freaky ;)
http://www.virtualconcepts.nl/
As wonderful as it is to see a young child able to use Linux, is it really necessary for children use computers? They are wonderful tools, and there are many games for young children that help them learn, but really, couldn't the parents teach the children just as well?
The real problem is when parents let their children sit in front of a TV or computer all day. There's a lot more to life than just staring at screens.
Jeremy Baumgartner
I'd be more impressed by a 90-year old figuring out how to use Linux.
When I was that age, if you asked me how to spell my name I would respond "D A M I A N Return" (Commodore PET user since before I can remember). And I learned how to count because you had to fast-forward the tape so-many-seconds to reach a certain game (TRS 80 model 100). Now maybe if she was programming....
The Debian Jr. project has been around for quite a long time. Its aims are to package and maintain a collection of relevant applications for the younger generation within the Debian framework.
This is very much an active project which is working with some of the other organisations. I myself have experimented with some of the stuff it includes with my niece. As mentioned in the article tuxpaint seems to be very popular for the pre-school age group.
The growth of these "Custom Debian Distributions" (the contents of which can usually be used on a traditional Debian install) should help bring free software into lots more situations.
Rob 'robster' Bradford
Debian Planet Guy
We are the apt. You will be packaged. Resistance is futile.
This is how to get linux onto the desktop and into the home. This girl will probably use linux for the rest of her life. This is great for the entire community. I dont know if one exists, but perhaps a website to turn kids to linux would be a great help the future of the OS. It is not as sexy or carry the bragging rights that kernel development does, but developing more software that a kid can use (not necessarily that young) opens the door to the next generation.
KDE while not my WM of choice (dont be shocked by the tone of my voice...), has a number of fun toys for kids, and Debian Jr. will help yours truly bring along my lil' jedi with linux from an early age.
He who confuses his religion with his science knows neither.
Has she compiled the kernel yet?
It's important to allow toddlers the illusion of freedom, it helps reenforce the idea that curiosity can lead to great things.
My users are dumber than 4 year olds?
Wait.. that's insulting to 4 year olds... sorry, let me correct it:
My users are dumb.
Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
I've thought to be true for quite some time. Linux really shines in its ability to customize the user's experience to fit the user's needs. This is a strongpoint that really lends itself to application in Elementary and Pre-Elementary learning enviroments.
This article also highlights a good example of postive computer interacion where the childs family took and interest in their computer activites and really made the whole thing a good experience. Interesting reading.
-Adam C. Greenfield
Emily, my three year old could do the Mr Potato head game. What I found curious is the machine is dual boot and she knew which OS had the game. I'm glad other posters have mentioned using X is childsplay not linux. I've still not got full functionality from my radeon 9200 under linux. That said, I'd rather let Emily run amok in linux than window.
A kid's application should be like clay, changing it on a whim to try new things quickly.
This Perl module provides scripted access to the SDL (Simple Direct-media Layer) libraries. Hopefully, this whole thing will be mostly portable to Windows.
When the graphics are simple, and hardware assisted, a scripting language like Perl starts making more sense. The actual application logic doesn't need a lot of horsepower.
I pipe many text messages off to Festival, since young kids aren't going to be able to read a prompt like "How many apples do you see?" I wish the TTS community had better packaging for alternative voices like MBROLA's extensions... I've yet to get anything but three pure Festival voices working.
I want to develop Perl bindings to the Open Dynamics Engine, letting the on-screen toys "fall" and "bounce" and interact realistically. It looks very promising, but I'll save that work for later.
My library consists of about 3000 lines so far, not counting the docs and auxilliary helper routines. I'm working to make extensions as simple and flexible as possible, so the curriculum can grow quickly and spontaneously.
Toy::World will be able to handle basic lessons and drills at first, such as counting and adding, letter and shape identification. I want to start building on those ideas into the usual early-childhood skills of understanding money, subtraction, words, matching, memory skills, and animal identification.
I've yet to work out the basic reward system, but I'm thinking of a sort of token-winning, token-spending theme, where you can play certain lessons to win on-screen coin tokens Mario-style, and some lessons may require spending those same tokens (or Mom can check out the totals for a few real-world benefits).
With a lot more work, I want to get into more hands-on experimentation. Simulated water-pouring, block-stacking, multiplication drills, cause/effect lessons, and even networked "shared toys" simulations involving small groups of children.
By that time I hope to have opened the project to community help. Contact me if you're interested.
[
It must be this script kiddie porn I've been hearing so much about...
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
I think this story nicely illustrates how smart children can be. I have a brother who just turned six, and has seen Windows installs so often he can do it (at least he instructed me last time when I did it). That said, he insists on Linux these days "because it has better games". By these, he means rafkill, xonix, and sopwith. For sopwith, he even figured the controls (which are about the most horrible ever - especially on a Dvorak keyboard) in a few minutes.
I'm gonna give the kid a book about programming and see how long it takes before he writes some revolutionary app that only he could think of...
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
My daughter is almost 3 and has been using her own KDE session on my Debian box for the past few months. I set up a username for her, so that I could log her in and know that she couldn't mess up anything I cared about.
We were gobsmacked when we realised that she had figured out how to type her username and password, though. She was *so* pleased with herself when she got that sussed out.
On her desktop, she has Mozilla Firefox set to go to BBC CBeebies - appropriate content for pre-school and you can't 'escape' the site, since all links are internal. She also enjoys using TuxPaint to draw pictures for us.
I'm hoping she's going to do a spot of Toddler Linux Advocacy at the local playgroups soon ...
"If you think the problem is bad now, just wait until we've solved it." --- Arthur Kasspe
Sorry to disillusion you pal, but you will. It's in the parents' charter or something.
(And yes, IAAP!).
Skiing? Check out The Independant Skiers Portal
Based on the complexity of the language in the article, we can safely conclude that the grandfather is of above average intelligence and education.
Given the warm and caring nature hinted at in the narrative itself, we can conclude that this individual probably married a woman of comparable intelligence, as he lacks the characteristics necessary to desire a shallow woman lacking in intelligence.
We can also assume that his children, following the usual human pattern of using their parents' relationship as a template, made similar choices in their choice of a spouse.
Thus we can see that this four year old is the product of at least two generations of intelligent people marrying intelligent people, with a clear value for nurturing their offspring.
In short, this is about a smart kid with a caring family who learns how to use computers. Not applicable in the workplace, as this kid is probably smarter than most the people I work with.
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
I don't know about the rest of you, but I hope my kids don't take a liking to computers at such a young age. I'm going to try to keep them away from computers for as long as I can. I'd rather them "play" the old school way. Take them outside as much as possible. Make them do more physical activities.
AirSpeak - http://itunes.com/apps/AirSpeak
I'm pretty sure a lot of four year olds have been posting as AC's for quite some time.
My not-quite 2-year-old son has been "using" an old iMac for a few months now. He used to watch my wife and I on our computers, and would scoot up to take the mouse from us and try clicking things. So I took a 4-year-old iMac we had around, set it up minimally, and installed a few kids' programs (Jumpstart Preschool, Finding Nemo, and a couple of others), and set it up so he could just wake it up, grab one of the programs in the Dock, and go to town with it.
.DMG files out of each one, and have them automount at startup so he can use all his programs.
He mastered it very quickly. Now he calls it his "Mac-y", and asks to use it almost daily. We let him have a half-hour or so at a time, and he's picked up a decent amount of skill very quickly. He likes doing letter drills the most.
Funny anecdote: one of the first times we let him use it, he was having a little trouble pointing the mouse properly. I went to help him position it, and he pushed my hand away and said "No!". After a minute, he figured it out himself. Now I help him with very little and don't volunteer it - I wait for him to ask.
And a pet peeve: Why do all kids' programs require the CD to be present? Don't you know we can't trust a toddler with a CD? I have to make
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
- Read headline, click on article
- Quickly scroll through article looking for pictures of this "babe"
- Found none, went to comments
- Found out she was four years old
- Forwarded michael's email address to perverted-justice.com
However, the issue arises when an average user has to do some setup themselves.. They buy a new printer, digital camera, etc. Thats where the issues are now in linux. On Windows you put in the cd that came with the product and a few clicks later your ready to go. I think most of us are aware of the issues you can experience in linux.
Yeah, his kid has knows how to use a computer but newsflash, tons of kids do. My daugher has had her own computer since she was 2... Now if his kid could use a cash register and count out correct change i'd be impressed.
"Thanks to the remote control I have the attention span of a gerbil."
So why am I headded over to my friend's house (a VP of Marketing -- no dumbass) this morning to help him get his printer to work on Windows?
I help CPAs, Morgage Brokers, etc., every single day with the same crap people say makes Linux "hard".
Look, computers are hard. Can't people see the forest for the religeous trees?! When you get used to one environment, anything else looks "foreing". That makes it real convenient to say "that... that... thing! It made me work at figuring this... this... thing I don't even have to think about in my world."
You are just adding more religeon to the noise. Windows is much harder to learn -- in many respects -- as is Linux. You just don't run into many folks (yet) who've had to go the other direction: Linux to Windows.
I've been using Unix for twenty years. Last environment used (before switching to Linux) was Solaris. Let me tell you, young whipper snapper, when I had my first try at Windows (1998). I about had a nervous breakdown.
I still don't like Windows XP verry well. It just doesn't feel right. Everything is so fucking hard to get done in that stupid practically-windows-only environment, with a command prompt that won't auto-complete! Why is it 2004 and DOS won't auto-complete?! Morons.
You're missing the very fact that in many, many cases, when "things don't always work right" you can't even get them back to working whatsoever -- as you watch Windows eat itself alive and laugh at you while it makes you play "pin the tail on the problem". It blindfolds you!
Some people have paid me thousands to fix their Windows problems. Simple stuff, like getting printers to work or their Outlook to quit behaving "weird". Thousands, because they keep asking me to come back to do more -- install this software, fix this little glitch, remove this spyware my daughter installd ("my computer's slow"). Translation? "It's too hard for me to do it". In my opinion, it is Windows which isn't quite baked enough and ready for anyones' desktop.
You want "easy"? Then everyone should be using a PDA or maybe a Mac.
Ever try to get wireless working on your linux machine? Using PCMCIA on a laptop? Go try that with anything that you just bought off the shelf because it was cheap and tell me how the Linux vs Windows installation is. And I'm not even talking about the driver itself, I'm talking about which #@$! file gets updated (and don't start with "use the gui then" because the gui didn't even recognize the card) and what it needs in it to work.
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
My family uses Linux -- and only Linux. Not because I'm a Linux zealot. They use it because it's what they know. It's what they know because it was the only environment their dad could put together that would not require him to become a full-time system administrator, at home.
We have six kids (now age 9 - 19). Thus we've always had many computers around -- the kids spend equal amounts of time with PS2, TV and PC.
We've tried Windows many, many times. We always go back to "easy" Linux. It just runs; We all know it; It offers us all the games we need; Got tired of hearing "IE sucks", "Outlook sucks", "Office sucks", etc., etc.
Had I been able to make more of a living, sooner in life, half of them may have had Macs, by now. The others would probably still be happier with Linux.
Again, it isn't about Linux, Windows or Mac. It's about what is most familiar.
I started my kid at 18 months. I setup my file server to start up gcompris automatically. I highly recommend it. It has age-based programs from coloring programs, to advanced math skills.
I started off with him just adjusting the monitor and sitting on the keyboard. 4 months later, he's still doing some of that, but he's much more interested in the sounds, using the keyboard, and moving the mouse around. I have him using a cheap $20 trackball (the crappy one with the lights in it) and he still hasn't broken it.
I fully expect to have him doing basic tech support for his mom when he's 3. by the time he's in school, he'll probably be the only toddler with his own laptop.
Why read the article when I can just make up a snap judgement?
A bit off topic, but I just had to listen to a similar argument used for circumsicion. He'll be different from every body else, so you better clip the tip of his penis off. I figure if he's that worried about fitting in when he's older he can make that decision himself.
Or the truly disturbing one.
"I want him to look like me when he's older".
I never understood that last one. Do the kids eventually say - "Uh no Dad, lets not compare units today."
I've found that my three year old son has learned spelling, phonics, fine motor control and problem solving at a far greater pace than his same-age cousin due to using a computer.
I bought my son a used computer when he was two as a present for potty training. He generally runs Windows because of all the educational games, but does use my Linux computer for some games.
My best tip is that your kid should learn to login themselves... it's a great way for them to learn to spell words. Change up the password every week or so and tell them which word it is. My kid learns to spell five or six letter words in a day or two.
Anyway, despite possible problems with creating a computer nerd with no social life, I think two and three year olds should always have a computer available to them. Just limit the time they spend on it.
The global economy is a great thing until you feel it locally.
Yes, but I don't see this one as a problem. There are special rules for giants. One of Microsoft's problems is that they behave as if they were still a tiny startup instead of a dominant force in their industry. You are not allowed to beat up on the little kids, but the little kids are allowed to hit back.
Its the installation, configuration and maintenance. The article isn't really even about Linux its about a few friendly applications and the logon feature. I converted my mother over to Linux a couple years ago and currently my wife has been using it for a little over 2 years (babe in tuxland).
Its never been the day to do that causes problems, it installing new hardware, needing to change configurations, its all the little things people do in Windows and with their Apples everyday that quickly become monsterous with a Linux distro.
Managing a Linux workstation still requires a level tolerance and patience that the average computer user doesn't/shouldn't have. I use it because I love using it, but there are times I'd like to throw the whole box straight out the livingroom window.
Quack, quack.
Uh...anyone see a double-standard?
/. is not attempting to hide the source of the article.
Microsoft posting this kind of story and passing it off as real news = "astroturfing."
What I see is someone who doesn't know what "astroturfing" means.
Life is too short to proofread.
I use Debian with udev and hotplug (which are quickly becoming defaults). When I boot my computer, it automatically finds and configures everything I have attached to it. When I plug in my USB palm, it loads the appropriate module so that Kpilot can sync with it. When I plug in a keychain drive, it loads the appropriate module and mounts it. All of my printers worked with the drivers shipped with CUPS. I plugged a PCMCIA NIC into my laptop, and it beeped after it loaded the driver and configured the network. My sound card Just Works. My USB mouse Just Works.
Why do people still think that Linux is in 1997? I know that there are some annoying driver problems, just as there are in Windows, but the vast majority of hardware I've come across does the right thing without intervention.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Oh yes, stating simple facts makes me a troll. I know a lot of people much smarter than I who have had the same types of problems with wireless cards--but all just different enough to not be able to help each other. Gotta love the slashbots.
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
What you did, from your perspective, might seem cut and dry and inexpensive to you. You built the PC yourself. It's safe to say that some would say it's bizarro to expect the user to build their own PC. Some would say it's bizarro to expect the user to fork over all the money for WinXP when open-source alternatives are available.
From my perspective installing mythtv or freevo on a debian box requires no more effort than installing XP, rebooting, visiting windowsupdate, rebooting, visiting windowsupdate, rebooting, installing ATIs software, rebooting, updating ATIs software, etc... I can have a mythtv box setup from absolute scratch (box of parts from newegg.com) in less than 5 hours.
I too have a multimedia PC in my livingroom. It's based on linux. It took very little time to get up and running. It can:
I'm sorry but a house full of kids with all Linux *is* bizarro world because it's not normal.
I'll agree that a house full of kids using Linux isn't normal. If normal is what you're shooting for then feel free to point your gun at the ground and shoot. I'm sure you'll hit your target.
All of their friends use Windows
Yes, most of their friends use Windows. Most of their friends are normal. Most of their friends' parents drive SUVs. We don't have an SUV. Should I go buy an SUV?
all the good games come out for Windows
We play a lot of Unreal Tournament 2004 at hour house. Is it not a good enough game for you?
and all the good professionally written, professionally packaged, and easily installed software is written for Windows
I've run out of patience on this one. You're clearly clueless.