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Off Grid Via Slow Moving River?
einstein writes "I live out in the middle of nowhere, and I lose power at the drop of a hat. My house is right next to the Susquehanna river, and all the kinetic energy going past my house makes just want to go off grid. Most homebuilt hydro power is lower volume/high speed. What would be a good, unobtrusive way to generate electricity from a high volume/low speed body of water? I'm between two large hydro dams, so the water level is fairly constant, but does tend to fluctuate 4-6ft in the winter due to ice floes and melting snow. I think maybe a miniature version of one of the recent submerged tidal generators might work... Does anyone have some suggestions on how I might go about this project?" More than a few people have done this before.
did something similar, they had a line of floating grain mills across the Tiber (no ice there though) in the late empire period. Find a good high current area and build a paddlewheel boat basically with the drive attached to a generator and use anchors in the riverbed. It might not generate a steady high elec current so you might want to put in a bank of batteries and converter for peak demand. Since the paddlewheel is in the back the boat draft would break up at least thin ice. With underwater turbines your talking alot of cost both in construction and maintainance. Hers another option http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/hydromauro.html
"It's so convenient to have a system where everyone is a criminal" - A. Hitler
If you manage to generate your own power (wind, water, solar, whatever), stay on the grid because YOU can feed the grid, and the power company (usually) has to credit you. Yes, keep some of your own power stored up in batteries, but sell the excess and pay off the costs of setting this up.
I'm a big fan of Home Power magazine. They focus more on solar solutions, but you'll catch an occasional article on hydro. Best part is you can download the current issue for free (after registration).
You woudn't happen to wear a 50's era bifocals and live in a van down by the river?
What would be a good, unobtrusive way to generate electricity from a high volume/low speed body of water?
You'll need township approval before even thinking of constructing something that could possibly damn or slow down the flow of water.
I've noticed while wearing socks and walking on carpet, I often generate static electricity. Is there any way to harness this electricity to power my home, rather than shock me when I touch metal objects? In a related question, could I somehow generate power by rubbing balloons against my hair?
I bet you could build a low-speed, high-torque paddle wheel (it would need to have a lot of surface area being pushed on by the river). Then, using gear ratios, you can convert that to high-speed, low-torque that may be needed by your generator. Not being a mechanical engineer, I'll leave it at that. :-)
ok, say this person puts in a paddle-boat or what-not which drives a generator. Does this remove energy from the river? will the downstream hydro-electric plant have less energy?
Why not just use humans? Just make a computer based reality world to keep them happy, and harness the energy.
There is a huge amount of material from the 19th century on mill design, and how to get the most out of river power. Try doing some research in a major library.
Years ago my family spent a few years trying to get a 30' fix pier (that others on our street could use for free) built by our property. Between the hassles of the town, state and MEPA we gave up. Strangely a few years later a neighbor (and state senator) who opposed to our project build his own from our prints 100' away. I guess we didn't grease the right gears.
My advice, make it small, discrete, quite and easily removable. Be forward that running your own generator over a long period is probable cause for the DEA to search your house as a suspected grow-op. It sounds crazy but again it's all about politics.
Bonne Chance.
"And a voice was screaming: 'Holy Jesus! What are these goddamn animals?'" - HST
... but there exists a tow-behind your sailboat generator I have seen. Looks like a dinky torpedo that is trailed behind, the little props spin, you get juice. It would do what you are looking for, easy to install, some power. Legalities of tying it directly to some point out in the stream-no idea, plus the safety factor of someone smacking into it.
found it
http://www.salt-systems.com/marine-wind.htm
with that said, unless a stream goes entirely through your property, ie you can control both sides of the bank and build a proper dam etc, which is a ton of hassle and permits and whatnot usually, I would recommend doing the normal tried and true approach of wind/solar/fuel genny hybrid as an adjunct to your grid power. Re arrange where you put your money into first which of the first two works better for your locale. You usually want all four for true backup solution in most places. that is a generalization, but mostly true. It's really a variable, it has to be customized to your location and needs. Site survey maps exist on the web that will show mean average sun shiney hours and mean average winds for your area that will help you make a determination of which method gets priority. the reason why the "hybrid" approach is so good is that usually most places in the US get a lot of wind in the winter, but less wind but more sun in the summer. but that just depends, some places it's so windy all the time wind alone with the fuel genny backup is good, other places solar is better,etc--just depends..
me = grid, some solar, backup aero-marine wind genny, two fuel gennys
good luck! Once you get your rig up and working, you'll ask yourself "why the heck didn't I do this years ago?" It's really comforting knowing you always have SOME power no matter what, and even better to OWN it.
Real Goods catalog sells a generator that looks like a boat trolling motor or a minisub thruster, only with a bigger propeller. You anchor it in the river, and it uses the large volume of water flowing past it. I believe the river still needs to be moving at several feet per second, and has to be at least 2 feet deep- we're not talking mountain stream here. Needs to be a -river-.
The other way is to lay pipe along the river for quite some distance, to as low a point as possible. You need quite a bit of "head"(vertical delta) or a lot of waterflow; Real Goods' other generator system uses a turbine, with a customizable configuration of nozzles.
As for selling electricity back to the grid (aka intertie systems)- you can't always do that(ie, "sell" the electricity back), and even if you can, there are often limits on how much electricity can be generated. The power companies also get pretty pissy about people powering the grid, because if there's an outage, and a lineman goes to work on the lines he thinks are dead...well...fried lineman. Most inverters these days designed for intertie(which is what we're talking about) have safety features to prevent it from powering a grid by itself, but power companies still like to make excuses and may demand one of their engineers check out the system(at your cost of course).
Please help metamoderate.
Sneak out and clamp 12 to 120 volt convertors on passing motorboats, with wires going back to your house. The wires had better be long
Stand on the shore with a big shotgun, and demand that passersby pay you a toll in killowatt hours in order to pass.
Provide all the catfish with treadmills connected to generators.
Per Max Screck of Batman 2, set up your own power plant and connect to the nearby hydro plants. Provide a lot of paperwork that no one reads, that includes the part that says that your power plant actually drains power from the grid instead of adding to it.
Power hot air turbines from meetings of the Susquehanna River Basin Commission.
If all else fails, I'm sure that the orgone writings of Reich, the magic energy fields of Tesla, or the spoonbending force of Uri Gellar will give you an answer.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Seriously, almost any solution will cost more than conservation. Not only can you have a smaller generator, but you won't need as many batteries to store energy for peak periods.
Check out real goods and other suppliers. Good lighting, gas-powered hot water heaters, fridges and cooking... there are lots of nice appliances that can reduce your reliance on electricity.
As for generation- keep your options open. It may not be legal for you to install a micro-hydro generator, and solar or wind might be cheaper.
Information: "I want to be anthropomorphized"
pfft, a mere toy! I use one of these
XP is basicly 98 with a lot more extra features to hunt down and disable. --Dram
However, there would be many potential problems, especially the difficulty and cost of fixing a large overhung wheel with an asymmetric load over a river with fluctuating height (the wheel axis is going to need to rise and fall) and the regulatory problems: I guess you would need a license and it might be hard to obtain.
Another solution might be a hydraulic ram. There is the remains of one near where I live, that could raise water nearly 200ft. without an external power source, and was very simple and reliable. I guess some sort of license would be needed, but they are unobtrusive- there is nothing to see above water level but the exit pipe and the compression tank. Once the water is in a storage tank at high level, it can power a conventional turbine or an overshot wheel (more efficient than undershot), and the output can be adjusted to give fairly constant generator rpm regardless of load. Hydraulic rams can be noisy.
However, I wouldn't recommend going down either of these routes unless you are a qualified mechanical or civil (structural) engineer or both, and have good contacts in other disciplines.
The smallest hydro generator I have seen working, by the way, is at the end of the River Lyn in England. It's way bigger than you are likely to want ( I think I recall it's about 100KW) but when I was there in the early 90s it was still working. It attracts a lot of visitors from the US, and the whole place (including the water powered gravity railway) is a wonderful example of English quaintness.
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
On the positive side, if everyone by a river did build one of these things, there would be less need for coal powerplants - THOSE are destructive to the environment.
Jack Rabbit Submersible Hydro Generator neat stuff
You have Federal, State, and local regs you need to check out.
First, Federal. The Corps of Engineers handles 404 permits. You need this to discharge dredged or fill material into waters of the United States - fill material includes structures as well. You might be exempt (usually if you affect under 1/10 acre you will be), but you need to make sure. If you are going to affect any Federal Endangered/Threatened species (are any in/near the river?) you will need clearance through the US Fish and Wildlife Department and or National Marine Fisheries Service. This is usually coordinated through the Section 7 process of your 404 permit, but if you DON'T qualify for a 404 permit and there are endangered species, you have to do your own Habitat Conservation Plan and prepare a document under the National Environmental Quality Act (NEPA).
Second, State. The Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission regulates fish movements. "No dams, ponds, or other devices which prevent free migration of fish shall be erected or placed by a person licensed to propagate and sell fish in a stream flowing over the person's property".
I am sure you also have some type of dam safety office as well, if you go that route. Also, I don't know how water rights work in your state, but you need to check into that as well. You also might have a state version of NEPA (many states do).
Third, local. Check your local Planning department for applicable rules and regs.
I would suggest that hydro power is not the best way to go for an off grid home power system. You really need high volume/high head water source to harvest any appreciable energy; from what you've described, there is no appreciable head (vertical drop) to the river near you. As well, as others have pointed out, building anything in the water entails a lot of bureaucratic red tape.
I would say that solar or wind power is more feasible for most people. Solar is cheap in maintenance costs but expensive to set up, and you really need a lot of panel area to hope to supply your needs. Wind power is cheaper up front, but more maintenance is required because of moving parts, and noise from the rotors can be annoying.
Either solution will require a battery bank to store power to use when the plant is not producing, plus a good inverter to supply consistent 120v 60Hz power. If all you are looking for is protection from outages, the battery bank with a generator may be ideal from a cost/benefit perspective. The payback time of most alternative energy projects is in excess of 50 years, so think carefully before you invest.
I have a lot of experience maintaining a large bank of rolls/surrettes and some trojans ( and others). One, they'll last a lot longer than 5-6 years, especially is you install a desulphator on the battery bank. They *work* as advertised, I highly recommend them. I've actually rejuvenated some marginally rank batts with them. neat stuff, the gov and some industries use them a lot to, to keep starter batteries "fresh" for long unused storage conditions with vehicles that only get occassional use.
On the batts, the rolls are definetly good, and definetly expensive, along with the crowns. I have found cost comparing, it might be useful to check out local forklift companies and get a battery bank from them. These are deep cycle "traction" batteries in steel boxes. Whoppers, and with batts, it's the lead, the size, bigger is better more or less. You can get a 12 volt bank for around 6-800$ that will hold twice (roughly) as many amp hours as the equivalent-in-money rolls batts. Plus, if you are near any big city with the foirklift dealer, you can go get the thing yourself,(heavy, be prepared for some egyptian engineering to get them in place with levers and ramps and dollies and whatnot) usually rolls batts need to be shipped in,too, kinda spensive...
the forklift batts come 12/24/ 36 / 48 volt so you can pick your voltage requirements. Most home systems are 24 or 12 volt at the storage, depends on how far away your panels are, and how much thick expensive copper wire you want to run. You can (if you really want to) CAREFULLY cut the welded busbars on the top of the forklift batts and do your own custom series/parallel wiring as well,to get whatever voltage you want (say knocking down the 48 to a 24) but I'd recommend just sizing for your needs and purchasing appropriately.
Good luck!
If you can get access to both sides of the river, you could try rigging up a floating power generator. They seem easier to home-brew than a turbine, and are probably accordingly less efficient.
e nergy/
There is a company in britaing that specializes in this kind of generator - one application that it lends itself to is water pumping from bodies that have a deep draft and a large amount of excess flow.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/thropton
I know that these are available from other places as well, and I'd be surprised if you couldn't make something like this yourself if you have a little motivation...
+++ ATH0 +++
Assuming you mean the Susquehana River in Pennsylvania, you have to deal with DEP permits. A quick glance at the regs indicated you'd need
a) Dam Permit - application fee of $1500-$3000
b) Environmental Assessment Approval - free
c) Limited Power Permit for Hydroelectric - $5 application fee and $10-10000 annual fee (depending on capacity)
Not to mention any local or federal regulations (did you check the EPA yet?) or the permits you'll need for construction, etc.
There's also a 30-day public comment period before the DEP rules, and they estimate it will take 220 days or so to complete the paperwork.
Reference is from the massive PDF found at Department of Enviromental Protection
In short, you probably don't want to build a dam.
If you know of references that rebut the standard historical theory (wouldn't be the first time), please post links or titles. I'd want to read them
Anyway, it's my understanding that water mills began serious development during the "Middle Ages". Modern Western culture is descended from the great cultural renaissance of the 15th century, and we've inherited their prejudice against the "Middle Ages", that 1000-year period after the fall of Rome where Western progress supposedly ground to a halt. But this period was when people started playing with technology seriously, and thinking about ways to use it to make life easier -- and to get rich. In short, it was the period that gave birth to the techno-geek!
But what happens when the cats over-eat, get fat and die?
Then you get dogs to eat the cats. If these become a problem, you get gorillas to eat the dogs. The gorillas won't be a problem, because, come winter, they will freeze to death.
I don't think the cats will be a problem, however. Garfield has been over-eating and very fat for 30 or so years now, and I still see his sarcastic face in the funny papers every morning.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
do cats know to keep the fish out? And do they work in shifts or what??
Some work in shifts. A few work in loincloths, but most wear the catsuits they were born with.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Here's something that sounds just like what you're looking for:
In the east channel of the East River, next to Roosevelt Island and in the shadow of the largest power plant in NY State, Verdant Power has been deploying a small farm of low speed turbines to tap the force of the tidal stream that flows back and forth in the channel.
In the scale you're interested in, a ten foot turbine can power 25 homes.
There is an article about it at the Roosevelt Island Wire website.
http://www.realgoods.com/renew/shop/product.cfm?dp =1200&sd=1201&ts=1017104
They sell a product called the Jackrabbit. Orginally it was used for oil survey sleds that were towed. This way you could mount them without having to build anything elaborate to change the water flow. This should work nicely for what you are wanting.
I don't know what the average flow of the Susquehanna is but I doubt it's really a slow river. I do know the Mississippi is typically moving about 4 knots and it is considered by boatmen to be an absolute bear to travel upstream. Recreational boating in the main Mississippi channel is near zero because the current's just too strong. I'm betting your river is faster.
A sailboat (monohull recreational boat big enough to have a galley) is making fair time if he averages six knots. Six knots is enough to generate a helluva lot of electricity using a water generator (they call them "spinners" and some of them will convert to wind generators if you get the urge). These things are not even that expensive.
Contrary to some of the alarmist nonsense being posted here, as long as you are not messing around in a wetland (swampy, boggy marshy place) and you don't propose to do any dredging, the Corps of Engineers presumes that all docks and piers for small boats will be approved for riparian use on ALL navigable waterways as long as you don't interfere with navigation. Possibly you have stronger local regulations, but get your COE permit and I think everything else will fall into place pretty easily. Sink a couple pilings, hang the spinners deep enough to keep from freezing and I expect you're in business.
Do not use that username/password.
Home Power is a very small grassroot-ish site. I've been dowloading their current issue for a couple of years now. A few months back they stopped just having a link to the issue on the front page and went to registration. The reason they need the registration is to prove how many unique visitors download and read the mag for their advertising rates on ads inside the magazine. If they can't prove their readership size, their ad rates fall. And they're not some big megacorp, they're already on a shoe-string budget. If you want to read it, sign up. They've never abused my info, and the magazine is awesome for the depth of info provided.