Free Software at the Local Library?

DoraLives asks: "I live in a small town in East Central Florida, nearly in the shadow of the launch pads at Cape Canaveral. People generally expect that a place like this would be quite technologically advanced. Unfortunately, this isn't always true, and a case in point is the local library. They have a nice collection of CD's, and you might think you'd see Free Software CD's on the rack right next to Frank Zappa, Duke Ellington, and Bach. Think again, no such thing obtains here, or in any of the other libraries hereabouts." Aside from Linux and BSD install discs, what other pieces of software might make good items for the software section in your local public library? "I went and talked to the director of the local library about having them provide a Knoppix disk or something similar to those unfortunates, who cannot afford a high speed internet connection to download and burn their own copies. Mr. Director seemed quite unaware as to the entire concept of Free Software and asked me to provide him with a 'list of this free software,' for his review. So, as part of my research into what's available out there, I thought I'd run this one past the users of Slashdot and see what they might recommend by way of operating systems, utilities, applications, and all the rest of the free stuff that's available for download and burning, that would make good items for the shelves of a lending library.

Methinks the inhabitants of my little burg would be tickled to find out that the entire computing world is NOT owned by a corporation in Washington state. I further think that this could be a fine way to get the word, and the actual software, out to the masses. Am I right? Can Slashdot help me with Mr. Director's need for information so he can make an informed decision."

Comments

doopdy doop

[insensitive claude]

Choice of titles aside, this subject has been covered before.

Everything's free at my library.

[Neil Blender]

I just put it my backpack and then make like a tree and leave.

Why CDs?

[toxic666]

Why not just set up a PC with a burner, post instructions and allow people to burn to their own CDs?

It would save the hassle of checking out a CD (like the music ones) and the software provided would, by definition, be legal to copy.

Re:Why CDs?

[Total_Wimp]

So how about a computer with large HD and "Jukebox" software that lets you burn the free software on demand, but no other software?

TW

Re:Why CDs?

[WhiteDragon]

That would let people come in and make copies of the non-free stuff.

Yes, and they have a photocoper at the library. It is not the job of the library to force patrons to obey the copyright laws. That is the job of law enforcement (in the case of criminal violation). Most libraries I have been to have big signs all over near the photocopier explaining exactly what copyright law allows to be copied, and what is forbidden. They could have similar signs at the computer for burning CDs. Alternatively, they could have a computer set up as a kiosk that would only burn certain preapproved images.

Re:Why CDs?

[JonBuck]

Bit of a problem, here. FYI, I'm a librarian myself.

CDs cost money. The PC costs money. Libraries don't have that kind of budget. Even if only a hundred people per year make that request, the costs would include:

1) Media. Including bad burns that must be discarded.
2) Computer time. Libraries often do not have state-of-the-art equipment. The computer doing the burning might not be able to do anything else while it's running.
3) Staff time. Something that is often missed. While this could be delegated to a library assistant.

Imagine what would happen if that number increased tenfold. We're talking thousands of dollars. It would be better for them to burn one or two sets of CDs and have them available for circulation, and simply replace them when they wear out. If a patron wants to purchase a CD copy for themselves then they would have to pay for it. Or they could do it at home.

I can see this as more viable in academic library settings. OpenOffice and other Free Software alternatives will help students get the type of software they need to write papers, create presentations, etc.. For public libraries... well, that would be up to the individual library.

Re:Why CDs?

[really?]

Good points, but ...
1. You could sell the media. In fact you could add a couple pennies to the price and offset some of other costs.
2. You don't need a new/fast/etc computer for this. I think a you could easily find a geek who will be happy to donate and set up his/her "second machine."
3. Once this is set up properly, it should require little, or no, maintenance. If you really do need to get something done/changed/etc ... get in touch geek from "2" or find some other volunteer. If I walked into my local public library and saw such a setup, I would definitely enquire about helping, and I think others would do too.

Of course, not being a librarian, I have no idea as to what kid of laws/rules/etc regulate this kind of thing.

Re:Why CDs?

[HybridJeff]

I dont really see why it shoud have to cost the library much at all. No one said that the library has to give out CDs for free, eitehr let peolple bring them their own, or sell them at a small profit to pay off the computer.

You wouldnt exactly need a top of the line computer either, its just burning CDs. Any PC less than 5 years old should be more than enough. Try goign up to some big tech company and seeing if they could donate one of ther older machines. Its worth a shot.

The only real cost would be the time required to set up the system and support it.

Re:Why CDs?

[TexasDex]

I understand that it would be hard, especially with budget cuts, but library patrons will understand too.

After all there are very few libraries that do not charge 5 or 10 cents for photocopies, and my public library currently charges 25 cents for every color page that is printed. They also charge $1.00 for diskettes for patrons to save word documents made using the two word-processing only computers (which do not have internet connections).

It is not at all unreasonable to think people might pay for such CD. And that itself would increase the percieved value of the CD (after all people would be less likely to use it as a frisbee if it cost them a buck). I don't know what kind of library you come from, but I think no library could allow unlimited use of consumeable resources and keep within it's budget.

If given a simple explanation of what they are getting (i.e. "OpenOffice is a free alternative to Microsoft Office. It has a very similar interface, and can be used on ") I think people would pay for a "burn to suit" service that lets them use a simple interface to create a CD with exactly what they want on it.

You know what... I'm gonna talk to the librarians at the Fredrikson about this idea. I think they might like it.

Re:Why CDs?

[Daengbo]

Come to Thailand, and I will show you a land where university profs send their textbook to one of the ten photocopy places on campus or another ten just off campus to copy the entire book for all 2-3000 students taking their intro classes. Unless the book is written by one of the profs, I have never seen the real schmeel in a student's hands. Never. Photocopying a Bash book from the library on campus is as easy as taking it to the library photocopier and asking them to do is for 50 satang (about 1.2 cents) per page. If they are too busy to do the whole thing, they'll send it out to one of the volume shops outside for you. You know not of what you speak...

Re:Why CDs?

[shadowbearer]

Good points, all. Let's leave aside the problem of downloading/burning CDs for now (see below)

What I see as the biggest problem is answering the questions that patrons might have - IOW, support. The whole idea would die if the patrons couldn't get support and tutoring in using what they had borrowed - and could freely copy.

The only viable solution WRT to support that I can see is LUGs - but that might get to be debilitating for a lot of local LUGs in terms of time spent. Most LUG members are already busy as hell.

It's a horrid catch22. I donate to my local library, and spend a lot of time there, and they know me really well. I'd be perfectly willing to keep linux CDs up to date for them - I already do it for anyone who wants a copy of linux dists, I have a 20 GB HD dedicated to linux ISOs - I have a very high bw connection and fast burner and they've expressed interest but I had to tell them - I don't have time to support patrons (hell, I'm turning down paying requests to fix machines now, as it is ;( and am already working overtime at the job I have + doing this)

Argh! Such a great idea (I read the Dec article too) yet there is no real answer to it that doesn't involve the patrons ultimately paying for support/tutoring in one fashion or another.

Perhaps a partial answer might be dedicated LUGs giving classes at local libraries for interested parties, volunteer. I don't know whether that would work. I honestly don't know what would work! but I do know that having FOSS CDs available at a local library is a damned good idea, and right in line with what libraries are for. (Our local LUG is dead; I 'm trying to revive/restart one, but so far no success)

One of the people I work with is a city councilwoman; I've brought the idea up to her wrt to funding; she doesn't know that she can ram anything thru, but she's said she's going to try. Sounds like I may be able to present at a meeting this summer. Hope I can achieve coherence :)

There has to be an answer somewhere. I hope so, anyway.

Respect,

SB
Frequenting and supporting his local librar(ies) for 25yrs+

Gnu Win CD

[paulproteus]

In all fairness, you should probably focus on Free Software for Windows, at least to get the project off the ground.

You should check out the GNUWin CD, a CD of lots of Free software for Win32, at least for inspiration on what to give users.

If you can make pop-in-the-drive-double-click-and-run CDs of things like OpenOffice or Mozilla Firefox (i.e., without installing), those would be great for demos. Perhaps an OpenOffice.org 2-CD set: One demo disc, one install CD. That way people could try it and realize how much they want it. :-)

Also, consider pointing them to a good online support forum. It makes a lot of sense to have your own user-support service for your little project, or for others like it. That way, you can say, "Let me just drive over." A PhpBB setup would do fine for that.

Re:Gnu Win CD

[ttldkns]

Dont forget to have a paper CD sleeve explaining in very simple terms what to do.

Also a label of "free software" could give the image to the regular library goer of inferior quality as sowtware is (for them) associated with cost. A more subtle title such as "public software" is also more accurate and is something that follows logically in a public library.

Re:Gnu Win CD

[LostCluster]

There's also The Open CD which is a similar project with the same purpose... point-and-click installs of several useful apps.

Re:Gnu Win CD

[AlexDV]

I work in a small library as a clerk/computer tech, and I'm currently trying to some copies of The OpenCD into our collection. I still have to run it by our director, but hopefully we'll have a good collection of Open Source software available by the end of summer. A lot of our patrons are students who come in to type up reports. If I had to guess, most of them probably have computers at home, but might not have any good word processing software. OpenOffice would probably work just as well for them as MS Office, and we would be saving them a lot of money. If their are any other librarians out there who have been successful lending Open Source software, I'd love to hear about it. Drop me an e-mail at: advancina@manhattan.lib.il.us Thanks :)

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Most library users are windows users...

[centralizati0n]

Windows open source software can be great, so check out the The Open CD. It includes such wonderful things as (in type-of-application order):
OpenOffice.org, AbiWord, GIMP
Mozilla, FileZilla, TightVNC, WinHTTrack, PuTTY
Audacity, CDex, Crack Attack!, Sokoban YASC, Celestia, Really Slick Screensavers

7-Zip, SciTE, WinPT, NetTime
All of that would be great. Maybe even print up a little intro booklet to help the user in deciding what to install.

Licensing

[Anonymous Coward]

I doubt many public libraries can afford the $699 license fee required for Linux.

Re:Licensing

[FattMattP]

That doesn't matter. Soon SCO won't be able to afford the paper to print those invoices anyway.

Re:Licensing

[Simonetta]

Although this comment is scored funny, it's not really.

Most libraries would be very hesitant to put a 'contested copyright' item on the shelf for copying (after checkout - at home) knowing that they MIGHT get legally harassed for doing it.

This is most true for operating system software CDs.

It is not true for normal music/audio/spoken word CDs as public libraries take the position that ordinary CDs that are checked out will only be listened to and not copied.

I get most of my music from the two local libraries (one main library for the city and the library system in the wealthy suburbs). I used to just grab about ten CDs at a time off the shelf and rip them to MP3s, listen to them selectively, and burn the best music to 15 cent CD-R blanks. After about a thousand albums, I got a little bored with stuff like "1000 Bulgarian Accordians Play the Beatles", but I still found lots of interesting stuff that I would have never heard from any other avenue of music exposure.

I copied a lot of music that I'm not interested in now but may be in the future because I believe that it's only a matter of time before the RIAA targets libraries for having CDs available for checkout. You could come into the library one day and find all the music CDs, just, gone. All it takes is one paid-off judge. And we sure have plenty of those around here. So I copied everything that I could with the idea that I might possibly enjoy a different type of music (like jazz or classical) in ten years time when all the music may possibly have been removed from the library shelves.

[How's that for a verb tense? Subjunctive Future Perfect? Too much college, not enough beer]

Re:Licensing

[No Such Agency]

I got a little bored with stuff like "1000 Bulgarian Accordians Play the Beatles",

I dunno, I think I'd *have* to listen to that one, just on principle. I mean, 1000 accordions!

RE: FS in the Lib

[fshalor]

1. Mozilla.
2. Manuals.
3. Slashdot archives.
4. Linux/Unix howtos
5. Freshmeat archived snapshots.
6. Gnu utils.
7. All the distros...

I'm going to actually be checking into this soon at our local lib. My whole compter experience started off at a freenet helpdesk in the library back in like 95...Man.. I can give bacl.

So burn some discs and donate them

[ElectricPoppy]

what's the big deal?

Which reminds me of my youth:

[Neil Blender]

In high school, I'd peel the magnetic stickers that set the alarms off out of books and crumple them up. I'd then walk by some unsuspecting stranger and surreptitiously drop the strip into their bag or umbrella. When they tried to leave all hell would break loose. Sometimes I'd put it inside one of my friend's textbook or something. I use to think they'd catch me because I'd be laughing so hard. Hilarity.

DUPE!

[LostCluster]

I can't believe this... we've run out of original topics.

Ask Slashdot has gone into reruns...

There isn't even an article here and we still got a dupe.

Knoppix and OpenOffice

[fhic]

It probably doesn't answer the question, since my local library doesn't lend software. But every month or so I burn a handful of CD-Rs with Knoppix, Lindows^W Linspire, and OpenOffice and drop them in the public area of the lobby. I label them with a unique URL so I can see if anybody's paying attention. I get hits off maybe half of them, and occasionally an email to the tune of "hey, you got any more of this stuff?" Hopefully I'm collecting some good karma somewhere. :-)

Re:Knoppix and OpenOffice

[fhic]

Funding is not a problem. While I'm no Bill Gates, I can afford to give away five or six spindle's worth of CD-Rs a year. :-)

My local branch library is pretty small, but branch libraries are the heart and soul of libraries everywhere. If they can give away everything that I give them, I'm entirely prepared to give them way more. I could constantly burn CD-Rs from now until my dying day and not give back a tenth of what local public libraries have given me over the years.

In fact, I offer up this challenge to my fellow Slashdotters: every time you visit your local branch library, do what I do: drop off a few (or a whole bunch of) CD-Rs with free or open source software and let me know by email at library (at) hicinbothem.com. If there's any response, I'll do my best to get a FPP with details of our successes.

I am far from an anti-Microsoft zealot, but this is the way we will win that war: by showing computer users who can think, and yes, one by one, that there are better alternatives to IE and Outlook, and yes, there are even better OSes than Windows.

Which library?

[Gangis]

Which library? Just out of curiosity. I live in Indialantic, also under the shadow of the cape. There are three libraries near me, Eau Gallie Library on Pineapple Road, the Melbourne Beach City Library where Nick's Steakhouse used to be on A1A, and some library I haven't gone to in Satellite Beach.

I may be interested in helping out on your endeavor, since I am local and I support spreading awareness of free software. :)

Fast internet connection and CD burners?

[David Hume]

I have to ask whether your library has a fast internet connection and whether the computers have CD burners (that library clients can use)?

Not to disparage your idea by implication, it is excellent. I just thought that the above could help people access software the library does not have on CD. In addition, some Free Software is updated so quickly that a library might have trouble keeping up with regard to receiving and cataloging physical CDs.

Finally, many libraries keep a home page on their computers which lists various reference sites. Perhaps Free Software sites could be added to this list.

Library demographics

[karlowfwb]

I work in a public library and my experience with the typical demographic of the library would lead me to believe that this would not be a big hit. Many of the patrons visit the library simply to use the internet, most of these people do not have a computer at home. Another large percentage are older folks, who simply want to read their mysteries. We do carry a moderately sized selection of (mostly educational) software, however that circulates very poorly.

Perhaps this could be successful in a smaller library with a more technically aware demographic, however in your average public library, I don't think it would see much success.

GNUwin

[Slayk]

Most of the stuff is rather old, but it is still good to have around. GNUwin

Provide Commercial Alternatives

[nurb432]

My local library for one loans commercial software, so it woudlnt be too far fetched to try it here too.

As far as what, id stick with the following:

1 - run from CD, such as Mepis, or knoppix, or freebsie.. ( give people a choice )
2 - General application replacements for windows.
3 - make your own #2's... with pretty liners for the sleves.. attract attention...
4 - games.. lots of games. its what drives a lot of people these days. FOr both windows and unix..

Just dont over do it.. give people 'cute' stuff to look at.

Vancouver Public Library

[ffa]

this is a great idea...

back in the late 80s, the Vancouver Public Library used to have a station where you could access a CD ROM full of all the Public Domain utilities (rememeber those days? :) for those who did not have a modem and access to a BBS.

You can setup a special PC which has a tool that only burns selected software. We used to take our own 5.25 floppies and copy PD software, so there is no reason people cannot acquire a $0.50 CD and take home goodies.

less maintenenance/cost this way to the library...

-farshad

Re:Abuse, anyone?

[botzi]

Give man a PC with CD burner + public acces - he may or he may not find a way to abuse it.
Add an internet connection to the above => you're screwed.

Repeat Topic But I'll Chime In Again

[Eberlin]

I work at a city library with machines sponsored by the B&M Gates Learning Foundation. To pimp Free Software may incur the wrath of Redmond for an already underfunded library. We're already a frickin' MS Office infomercial as it is.

I do, however, try to make sure people know and understand the costs of MS Software as well as the benefits of Open Source/Free Software. I recommend OpenOffice for those who don't want to shell out a fortune for word processing. I tell people about Mozilla Firefox and describe the benefits it has.

I also have handouts with links to AVG Anti-Virus, Ad-Aware, and Zone Alarm. Not Open Source but "free as in beer."

To offer CD's could become a support nightmare unless you pull a "Try at your own risk" thing. Last thing a library needs are irate patrons because they borked their machines trying to use/install software YOU supplied.

If you are to do so anyway, go with OSS for Windows, first. OpenOffice, Firefox, GIMP. Then maybe the free-as-in-beer stuff I mentioned earlier for antivirus, anti-spyware, and firewalling. Then there's other stuff like Knoppix and bootable game CD's (America's Army?).

In the end, there are quite a few considerations to think about when offering software from a library. You'll have political issues, can lose some private funding/sponsorships, and even have irate patrons who mistake your goodwill for tech-support-for-life.

One of the irritating things I got to hear at the library was that when a student asked about BSODs and rebooting, the rest of the class said that it's a normal thing, and to get used to it. I had to tell them otherwise, and even then, they weren't fully convinced that instability isn't natural.

Hopefully with stuff like free software cd's, and the knoppixes of the world, people will find that there are alternatives to MS. Maybe they'll even see its simplicity, stability, and practicality.

Re:Two Words

[Omega1045]

Would it get me a Funny if I said: One Word Pr0n ? Just trying to karma whore here...

Work on Koha www.koha.org if you want to help

[abesottedphoenix]

If you want to really help your local public library dig open source, point Koha out to them. With what we pay for an automated library system (it's enough to make you ralph, trust me) Koha is an attractive alternative.

Many libraries still don't have high speed connections since many libraries are rural public libraries like mine. Scarily, we're still a 56k connection type of place. So the CD thing is quite cool. The second reason we would want this is because of those circulation statistics we'd get from checking out the CDs.

Your third roadblock - most directors gradumatated from liberry school about a zillion years ago. Computers are new to them. They shouldn't be, but trust me, most directors are 50-70 year old white guys that haven't gotten sunlight in a billion years.

Start with Windows apps

[spiritraveller]

Rather than focusing on Linux itself, I think the best approach to get people using free software is to give them software that works with the operating system they already have.

Most people will switch to free software gradually, not suddenly with a complete operating system replacement.

They may eventually switch to Linux, but that will be much easier for them if they are already using software that can be used under both Linux and Windows.

Therefore, I think the best thing for most people would be a cd filled with easy-to-install Windows versions of programs such as the following:

* OpenOffice 1.1.1
* Mozilla Firefox (web browser)
* Mozilla Thunderbird (email and usenet discussions)
* Mozilla Sunbird (calendar)
* Nvu (based on the old Mozilla Composer web-design app)
* Mozilla Suite 1.6 (for those who prefer it all in one program)
* Pan (usenet binaries)
* gaim (chat client)
* The Gimp (to replace Photoshop

There are Windows binary downloads available for each of these programs...

You might also make a version of this disk for Mac OSX users. But by this, I mean apps that run natively, not through an X server. Fink is great, and you might want to have a disk that lets you install it and some of its packages... but running an X server is a little complex for the average user.

Apps that run natively under OSX that I know of:

* Mozilla Suite 1.6
* Mozilla Camino (a more lightweight browser)
* NeoOffice/J (a version of OpenOffice)

I am sure there are other native OSX FOSS apps... but those are the ones I know of.

Of course there's no reason you can't provide 20 different Linux distributions and the entire contents of Sourceforge... but I would focus on Windows and Mac apps, and Live-CDs so people can get their feet wet with FOSS apps without committing an entire system all at once.

Project Gutenberg CD

[j1m 5n0w]

A cd of Project Gutenberg books would be a reasonable thing for a library to carry. Staring at a screen isn't the best way to read a book, but I've read quite a few that way.

Some of my favorites (Some of which I read in dead tree format, I'm not masochistic enough to read Les Miserables via CRT):

• George MacDonald
  • The Princess and the Goblin
  • Lilith
  • Phantastes
• Victor Hugo
  • The Hunchback of Notre Dame
  • Les Miserables
• Samuel Taylor Coleridge The Rime of the Ancient Mariner
• The Brothers Grimm Grimm's Fairy Tales
• Kenneth Grahame The Wind in the Willows
• Lewis Carroll Alice's Adventures in Wonderland
• The King James Bible (in html)

-jim

Open source windows software

[MrRuslan]

Along with linux and BSD...alot of people who can't afford programs like microsoft office or photoshop and need software don't know what to do...some pirate and some buy crapware...librarys should have cds for free or for a small fee that have Gimp, Open office,Mozilla,Firebird,Filezilla,Putty,emacs,vim, etc... for windows...that would be a great help...this great free reasource should be offered in local librarys for those who are not comfortable with switching platforms and in the future it would easier to change platforms...i mean somone gouse to walmart as an example...they see a linux box...with screen shots of the programs they know and use...much easier than looking at something and saying to yourself...whats that?

Which library?

[DoraLives]

Cocoa Beach

Free software

[Pompatus]

I worked in a small town library in high school (about 10 years ago). We had software in the back that wasn't in circulation because of the fear of lawsuits about copying. I said that was rediculous, because people could photocopy books, plus we had tons of movies available for checkout. It wasn't my decision though, so the software sat there collecting dust.

I personally think the local library should carry ALL software. It's copyrighted the same as books. How about tax software? People only need it once a year. Checking it out for a week and returning it makes sense. Think about how many programs you only need maybe once or twice a year. Partition Magic comes to mind. Almost all games get boring after a couple of weeks.

Of course software companies would have a fit about this because they percieve lost profits. I think most people that would check out software from a library would go without before buying it.

The real solution to the problem is open source software. I personall think linux is almost ready for the desktop for the average user. Hell, the evolution email client alone makes me want to switch (I'm dual booting now, mainly because my sound drivers play volume at 1/3 of the windows drivers and my USB flash keychain thingy doesn't work properly under linux. I'm running mandrake 10 with asus a7v8x-x mobo. any ideas?? :).

But I'm getting offtopic. Libraries should have ALL software available for checkout, just as they have all other forms of media. Thank god libraries have existed for as long as they have in this country, because if they were suggested today, they would get vetoed by book, magazine, movie, music, and software publishers because of a percieved loss in profit. Think of all of the brilliant people throughout history that were not rich enough to have their own vast collection of books.

Re:Free software

[localhost00]

There is an inherent problem with a Library having all software available for checkout.

If a program that is not free is available, a user can check it out, have it home, burn a duplicate CD and have the CD back at the library the same day.

Books on the other hand, would be practically impossible to duplicate in the time the library allows you to have it in your possession.

Basically, it is not cost-effective to copy a book, which is why books that would otherwise cost you some $$$ can be available at a library.

Re:Free software

[zpok]

Um, I like the notion, but to be completely honest: I'd copy.

Yes I would.

And so would everybody I know. I'm pretty sure.

I'm actually very conservative about this, I think I have about 4 copied CD's in a total collection of 300+ CD's and 400+ records, but still...

I know I would do it because where I lived a year ago, I could buy pirated software for $4 as opposed to twice or trice the market price in the US, and guess what, I bought the pirates.

It's a shame, really, I won't waste your time with excuses, but the bottom line is: Software firm fears are grounded.

I'm not waving a flag for proprietary, afaic everything should be free, but as long as it isn't I don't expect programmers or musicians to turn into revolutionaries just because I'm too lame to pay for other people's work.

Re:Free software

[Simonetta]

Many big city libraries bought lots of CD ROM titles for major expenditure during the first wave of CD software in the early to mid 1990's. Very little of it got actually checked out or used. The libraries probably won't be buying much more software for circulation again.

I do occasionly see CDs in books on the shelves, for example, in the travel section of the local surburban library there is a set of six CDs that have the detailed topographic maps of the entire United States (except Alaska and Hawaii). And what few computer books that get bought will have their CDs included.

The argument that publishers would be totally against having libraries circulate their products for free is balanced by the reality that libraries actually buy a large percentage of the stuff that gets published. A first novel by an unknown but talented writer might sell a few thousand copies on the basis of book tours and positive reviews. But if the good reviews in prestigous literary magazines leads 50,000 libraries each to purchase one copy, then the publishers overlook the supposed loss of revenue from having twenty people read the book from the library. It's a symbotic relationship that has been acknowledged by intelligent book publishers since Ben Franklin opened the first public library in America (before it became the USA).

Software publishers, however, are mostly climbing the up-side of the Bell Curve and see any possible loss of a full retail sale as a theft. It would be difficult if not impossible to come to mutually beneficial arrangement for creative distribution of software and compensation with these guys.

Basically, it's a class issue. What kind of people have it and what kind don't.

None

[Breakerofthings]

Distributing OSS software (maybe software in general) via CD is lame. In my experience, by the time you get a CD, half of its contents are out of date.

My first Linux distro was a store-bought, shrink-wrapped copy of RedHat. I was hip deep into it before I realized it was a couple of versions old ... Don't most libraries nowadays have internet access? Maybe broadband? (if not, they should ... but that is a different rant)

So how tough would it be for a library to set up a mirror of the ISOs for linux/bsd/etc. distros, and a directory of tarballs for packages?

Then all you need is a few cd burners, and you are all set ... strapped for cash? Make 'em provide their own blanks ... (cd burners are cheap nowadays)

Strapped for the storage space? How about just an index, a starting point for the uninitiated, that will point them to the projects' sites where they can download the ISOs, RPMs, DEBs, etc. that they want. (Cache 'em with squid, maybe).

Now, the library doesn't have to worry about the CDs being returned, or being damaged (or getting 'stale').

My point is, (and I am truly not trying to pick on anyone here) that the mindset of someone asking this question is a bit askew; they are overlooking the Internet! Now I am a dead tree lover; obsessed, really. But I realize that dead trees are no longer the best way to distribute information in all cases ... particularly information that is prone to becoming dated quickly.
All you are really interested in is getting folks information here, right? just the bits ... my claim is that the best way to do that is give it to em from the source; fresh, hot, up-to-date, and maybe they will learn something from that experience (like where to go to *get* FOSS!

The library should focus on helping people find that information ... hence my suggestion for a link page ... a jumping off point, or directory of sorts. Perhaps local cached copies of n00b-appropriate distros, maybe even a few pre-burnt CDs to cut down on the wait time (Knoppix would be an excellent choice for this)

One last point to beat the proverbial dead horse ...
If the library has broadband internet access, where a user can download debian, for example, and a little help finding it for the newcomers ... and the ability to make a cd of what they want ...what value does shelving copies add to the transaction?

Re:Has anone noticed?

[LoFat ByLine]

Libraries are dead...

OK, I'll feed you. What do you mean? The physical space or the idea? Not that it matters much.

Libraries as physical space: Lots of information, especially books, are not available in digital format and may never be. Even if they were, digital isn't the preferred format for lots of people. Maybe someday this won't be the case, but that's not the point: Right now, communities still need a place to store physical media.

Libraries as idea: Basically, a library is a bunch of people pooling their money to build a collection of information much greater than any of them could amass individually. Doesn't matter what format the information takes. The only thing that could kill the library as idea is for all (or almost all) the information anyone could want to be available and easy to access for free. That hasn't happened yet either, and it's not likely to happen for a looong time, if ever.

Re:Games!

[WebMasterP]

Ok, isn't there some rule that says if you're going to make fun of someone's typo and call it an English mistake, you have to TYPE PROPER ENGLISH YOURSELF.

You know, you might be able to check out a book on irony at your local library.

opencd anyone?

[seringen]

For more information, check out www.theopencd.org

MY library

[LordHatrus]

My library has RedHat Install disks and install disks for some other linux... but they are REALLY old versions, and my library only has them because they have books like "RedHat Linux for Dummies" and "Corel Linux in 10 days" and stuff like that, and the books happen to have the install disks in the back. (Upon looking, a CD was missing from one of them, and I actually burned a new copy and placed it in the book... though I would never take out a book as noobish as that,dont worry :) )

Windows Update

[Student_Tech]

Microsoft offers Windows Update CDs every few months for free from them. Perhaps get a few, http://www.microsoft.com/security/protect/cd/order .asp

Of course if everyone using the library has broadband it might be kinda mute, but it would be useful for everyone else.

potential problem

[wk633]

I used to work as a sysadmin at a library. A co-worker wanted to donate several copies of FreeBSD he had. The problem the library had was that they had a boilerplate policy for all software CDs that said you promised to uninstall it when you returned the CD, not to copy it, etc etc. Free software didn't fit into the boilerplate library policy, so they weren't quite sure what to do. They wanted to get it out, but were worried about deailng with multiple circulation policies.

Burn from ISOs only

[Fibonacci Ceres]

>>"Why not just set up a PC with a burner,
>>post instructions and allow people to burn
>>to their own CDs?"

>That would let people come in and make
>copies of the non-free stuff.

Set up a box restricted to burning from ISO
files only. Provide a simple click'n'burn
interface and a laminated card next to the
PC that would explain the different distros,
number of disks needed, hardware needed and pointers to paper references both in and
outside the library.
The library could provide CDRs at a small
profit to pay for upkeep on the system and
to buy more paper references. This would be
a great thing for a local Linux User Group to sponsor. It would create much greater public awareness of the local group, GNU/Linux and
the Open Source movement.
And no drone from Redmond (or anywhere else)
could complain about software piracy.

There's a .sig around here somewhere

Re:Burn from ISOs only

[westlake]

There are problems here:

1 Mac and Windows users will want download privileges and access to a burner as well. That I can guarantee, particularly if the library has the only free public access broadband connection in town.

2 A public library may not be willing or able to accept restricted donations, privately maintained kiosks, etc, especially if has has to pay for the bandwidth, documentation, maintenance, insurance, etc., needed out of it's general funds. Imagine the response of your local LUG if Microsoft took up the same plan, but with $60 billion in cash to back it up.

3 This isn't a trivial commitment for your local Linux Users Group or one that it can easily back out of gracefully.

Re:Burn from ISOs only

[Fibonacci Ceres]

I think you've misunderstood my suggestion.
Assuming that the local library will agree
to host the machine and provided electricity,
no 'net connection of any kind is needed.
The ISOs are stored on a large HD and updated
at most monthly by a member of the LUG. The
library's staff need not be involved beyond
pointing out the kiosk, providing help in
finding GNU/Linux library materials and
selling blank media to the interested public
in such a manner that they recoup any cost of
hosting the machine. The LUG can donate the
machine to the library and have one or more of
its members write the interface and provided
maintenance and updates as needed.
Note that this does not preclude the same
library from lending copies of Knoppix, Debian,
Mandrake and Fedora just as they do CDs of
everything from Bach to Barry Manilow.
The point is that many more distros can be
hosted on the machine than the library is
likely to want to keep track of as part of
its standard lending service.
The cost to the LUG is that of the machine,
continued administration and perhaps written materials or paper disc sleeves with the LUG's
name and contact information prominently
stamped on each one.
Having a library hosted machine or kiosk will
(Free Software! - See reference desk)
create far more interest than simply placing
donating a few copies which people will likely
bypass on their way to something else. This
is about GNU/Linux outreach for people who
have heard little or nothing about alternatives
to the dominant OS and weren't looking for it
when they arrived to return the John Grisham
novel they borrowed two weeks ago.
My take on human nature is that Joe Sixpack is
more likely to buy a CDR to get "free" software
than he is to borrow (at no cost) something he knows nothing about. YMMV.

There's a .sig around here somewhere...

Re:Burn from ISOs only

[tokabola]

At many libraries you can download files but most don't have CD burners.

If a LUG were to set up a Kiosk, it should probably have some sort of "Kiosk" software. In other words, it would have a GUI that won't close and only lets you do certain things (ie burn CDs of "allowed" files. Heck, you can even do this on a Window$ box.

ISO files are generic, in other words, a Linux (or Window$) box can burn an ISO for a Mac, etc. I first got Linux by downloading ISOs under Window$.

This is a fantastic idea!

The only problem is "selling" free software. I work at an office supply store (big chain) and I see people looking at M$ Office and cringing at the $399 (US) price. They ask if Word 2003 is available by itself. I ask them if they would like to be able to use and create Word documents without spending hundreds of dollers. They say yes and smile. They ask "How much does it cost?"

I say "it's free!"

They say "Nevermind."

If I slid them a disc and said it was a "bootleg copy of Open Office" they would hug me.

To many people still equate Cost with Value.

Tommy

Open Source for Open Minds

Windows patches?

[omicronish]

Does anyone know if it would be legal to make a CD full of Windows patches and service packs? Such a CD would be incredibly useful for me, and perhaps other people. Someone could write a nice pamphlet on how to protect your computer, and provide a simple installation program for installing necessary patches from the CD.

It'd be like one of those health pamphlets, such as "how to protect yourself against skin cancer", but geared towards protecting Windows computers.

Replacements for commonly-exploited parts of Windows could also be included, such as Firefox, and as a bonus, MiKTex and a tutorial can be included to free college students from the grasps of Microsoft Equation Editor ;)

Re:Windows patches?

[zakezuke]

Does anyone know if it would be legal to make a CD full of Windows patches and service packs? Such a CD would be incredibly useful for me, and perhaps other people. Someone could write a nice pamphlet on how to protect your computer, and provide a simple installation program for installing necessary patches from the CD.

You'd have to talk to Microsoft about the subject. What you're doing is thoughtful, practical, and would have some major value esp for people who buy new systems who are told to download service packs to prevent virus infection, and get a virus infection the moment they connect to the net. Given they distribute their own CD rom with service packs on it, it would be a tough call.
While you can download it from their site that doesn't give you the right to distribute it your self.

Replacements for commonly-exploited parts of Windows could also be included, such as Firefox, and as a bonus, MiKTex and a tutorial can be included to free college students from the grasps of Microsoft Equation Editor

Here is where Microsoft would likely object. If you could get permision to distribute services patches it's a whole new ball of wax if you are actually reccomending replacing their products with 3rd party software on the same disk. While the software is easily downloadable, the moment you put it on a disk with Microsoft software you are subject to their terms and conditions.

What you're talking about is a good idea, but in order to avoid the microsoft terms and conditions it might be wise to have the patches and such on seperate bundles.

You are right

[Pan T. Hose]

Most library users are windows users...

You are right, this is probably the first we should change. I would suggest Debian GNU/Linux for starters and Debian GNU/Hurd for people willing to experiment and learn more. Next steps, as I have already mentioned, could be EROS and OpenBSD for systems less popular but extremely reliable and secure. I wonder which operating systems would other Slashdotters suggest.

gave Project Gutenberg to FL school

[Doug Merritt]

I would thing that the best thing a library could have is a copy, be it a mirror, dvd, cd, of Project Gutenberg

I actually did do that, I made a multi-CD copy of the entirety of Project Gutenberg and gave it to my sister, a schoolteacher in central Florida, for her gifted classes, and a copy to give to her friend, who's a librarian in that area.

It was a very novel notion to them, so I don't know that it ended up getting used (I'm too many thousands of miles away to check), but I gave it a shot...

Re:Games!

[UserGoogol]

The Grammer Rule. Whenever you correct someone's spelling or grammar, you will make a mistake yourself. And if you try to spell Grammar, you'll probably spell it grammer.

TheOpenCD, of course.

[moquist]

http://theopencd.org

I think TheOpenCD is a tremendous evangelism tool, because it meets the newbies where they are. Without forcing them to learn what an Operating System is, without making them install one, and without making them learn all-new apps all at once, it gently introduces them to some great FOSS apps. The CD automatically runs a program that browses the applications available on the disc, and it includes categories and helpful descriptions of the applications. It even has essays by RMS and ESR.

Full Disclosure: I'm co-founding Software Freedom Day (http://softwarefreedomday.org/) with the maintainers of TheOpenCD project.

recommend no burned cds

[SaberTaylor]

This is a great idea. I used to think that free sw advocates should get free cdroms placed at checkout counters but apparently that is highly valuable retail space.

I would recommend that for people introducing libraries to free software, that cds should be purchased from mass-produced (with the distinctive stamped look) cd vendors for security trustworthiness. Not just on the person who puts the cds in the library but so borrowers don't replace any cds with their own versions.

And for burnt cds I'd recommend that the URL for the checksum be included in the cdrom case.

As far as selection goes, I don't think you can go wrong.

have fun.

From a librarian's point of view...

[jim_deane]

Ever since I started working at the public library in my town, I have been slowly adding to the collection of non-Microsoft guides, books, and software.

Unfortunately, due to the draconian rights management practiced by some commercial companies over the past twenty years, the concept of "making copies" of software and "giving it away" strikes fear into the hearts of upper management, many of whom haven't actually learned anything about software since their library master's program, when computers were XT class machines, a library would be lucky to have just /one/, and no library ever heard of an internet.

One thing that someone (and I may take up this charge) should do is write an article for the Library Journal or another of the librarian-professional publications. Describe the history of free/open software, describe the licensing issues, answer the obvious questions that arise from the Microsoft-addled point of view, and then review a number of free software items. Knoppix and several different flavors of Linux, various flavors of BSD, office software, and other applications.

Then describe the market! Who can use this software? Who /does/ use this software? Why is this important to the people who use the library?

Find out if your library has a geek on staff, and whether they have a CD burner. If they don't, or they aren't willing to donate the CD's, how about printing up some decent labels, burning the CD's for the library, and donating them?

In doing this, you would reach the majority of the professional library staff, and show something of the community spirit which has made free/open software possible.

Believe me, the librarians are your best friend in this endeavor. You might even find that the younger technical librarians (the kind that maintain the computers, do cataloguing, web page maintenance, and databases--you know, the 'back room' librarians) are already Linux/BSD/etc. geeks, just itching to help promote the cause!

Jim D.

"Linux Format"

[r_j_prahad]

I nominate the cover discs for the monthly magazine "Linux Format". I get 2 or 3 CDs per issue, and there's a DVD subscription option for those who want it. In the past they've included just about every major distro's ISOs, including bootable images. There's also lot's of bleedin' edge stuff that's too big for most of us to download, like the new OpenOffice or KDE3.2. Sometimes they've even got some really expensive proprietary packages that run as crippleware but they're usually complete enough to get some good use out of them.

So that's my vote for my lending library. But I'd still keep my subscription anyways.

Security, Anyone?

[shylock0]

This poses a *huge* security risk which should be considered. What's to stop someone from checking out a disk of OSS and returning another disk of the same software, this one with a worm or built in DOS attack? You'd need to run an MD5 on each disk after it was returned, which libraries don't really have the capability for. Or, you'd need to find some way to identify the disks that is difficult to copy, like a holographic sticker that changes when removed (like the warranty stickers on some HP home computers).

Otherwise, such software is just begging to be tampered with by some wise-ass 17-year-old -- or somebody malicious, even.

Put the Free in FSS and provide CDs to the public

[solprovider]

Slashdotters are supposed to be evangelists for FSS. I would rather not force the library to:
1. Sell CDs, or
2. Dedicate a PC to copying CDs, or
3. Expect visitors to install Linux.

A better method is to follow AOL's business model. Provide CDs with a great label and a box that explains why you want one. Create CDs of FSS that runs on MSWindows. Let the CDs contain:
0. Easy installer that autoruns. Check the boxes and each installer runs without much human intervention.
1. Mozilla (browser, email)
2. OpenOffice.org (word processor, spreadsheet)
3. GIMP (graphics)
4. Games (fun. Make cerain to include 10 versions of solitaire-type card games.)
5. Extras (anything the copier feels would be usable by the public. No repeats of functionality. Must be added to a hidden page of the install wizard if they are ever going to be used.)

Do not try to convince the public to change their OS. Just make available alternative software that works as well or better than what MS provides. Once the public is using apps that do not require MSWindows, then we advertise that they can switch OSes. But that will not happen in the library. That will happen when they order their new Dell and insist that it comes preloaded with Mozilla, OOo, and the GIMP. Then Dell will see that they can lower the price if they use Linux.

Remember the assumption that a very large portion of the public does not install software. Those that do are usually smart enough to insist on a particular OS. The rest only install spyware when a website/virus hits them, and Dell might prefer to sell them a PC that cannot be hit. (Then again, Dell profits by selling PCs to people who do not realize their PC is slow because they are running 47 spyware programs.)

Getting people to take these CDs home and put them in their PC will be a challenge. Do not put price (even $0.25), work (insert blank CD here), or other effort (downloading) to be obstacles. These people have 8 versions of AOL on their hard drives; use the method that works.

Let me buy a set of 50 CDs with display box for a very reasonable price, and I will convince the local library to keep it by the checkout. They can call me when they run low.

No, I will not do it myself. No time. I am not writing and testing the installer. Here is a way for someone to make money on FSS. I expect to read on Slashdot that someone has these CDs for sale very soon. Just make certain the box is very pretty, and the software very easy to install and use. Contact me if you want help writing the marketing. Do not put "GNU", "Linux", "FSS", "OSS" or any other techie words on the box or the CD. Use phrases like "No more internet pop-ups!", "Faster than Microsoft!" and "Free photo editing".

If you want to make a real company out of this, provide (phone) support. Fill the support center with out-of-work Slashdotters, charge $20 per call, and pay half to the techie.

CDs already included with FOSS books

[walterbyrd]

Lots of books about FOSS, come with CDs included. So, libraries have been allowing the public to check out freeware CDs all along.