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Video Projector for Home Theater?
ZeLonewolf writes "I'm thinking about setting up a movie-style home theater system. I've already got the room set up and I've obtained a nice sound system. The last step is to acquire a video projector. I'm considering a few options: Projectors on eBay run from $300 to the tens of thousands. On the other hand, being an electrical engineer, there are plans online to build your own (Google cache), that are potentially as cheap as $200. What are Slashdotters' experiences? Will a $300 projector do the job? How about a home brew?"
Get thee over to http://www.avsforum.com and you'll find your answers.
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Link to a Yahoo group, and their bandwidth is exceeded even before the story is posted. Niiiice...
The "homebrew" ones are a joke if you want something with a decent picture. And the contraption itself looks riduculous. Forget it.
There is a good deal on a refurbed DLP projector for about $3500 -- check gotapex.com (great site for deals). Read around for more info on what DLP is, but that and LCD are preferable to CRT projectors these days.
Anyway, you're more likely to get better information from someplace that deals directly with home theater equipment. The forum at Home Theater Spot has great information, despite their gestapo posting rules.
I did this same research and with projectors, you do get what you paid for. Rear projection will be brighter and more suiteable for home situations due to lighting. Just my 2c...
Not to be curmudgeonly, but why the hell even *bother* posting a link to geocities on slashdot? Hello? Anybody?
Getting them from E-bay might not be a good idea, remember that the lightbulb has a limited number of hours before the light strenght is reduced and it finally breaks.
I was looking into projectors as well, but discovered a big drawback: the bulbs are good for about 2000 hours and then run about $350 (on average) for a new one. That's a lot of money every couple of years...
--- Usually, those that believe in absolutes are ignorant, fools, or both.
My father in law works at Texas Instruments and got ahold of one of those DLP projectors. Holy moly, that thing looks GREAT. We watched Two Towers on it, and he had put up a simple white sheet on the wall to watch the movie on. It looked very nice, like a smaller movie projection. Colors are extremely bright; I'd been so used to projectors losing brightness proportional to their distance that the brightness of this thing took me by surprise.
Plus those DLP chips are just so freakin' cool.
I found this site to be very helpfull when picking out a projector.
http://www.projectorcentral.com
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I've thought about this, and I wouldn't build my own for the same reason I won't put a DVR computer near my TV -- the fan noise and the esthetics.
I have several customers who desire big display screens (like how they always do in movies and TV) so they can monitor the status of certain things.
Currently, we use a lot of old NEC 29" monitors which haven't been made in 10 years and are going away for good. I've talked about replacing them with rear-projection systems, by putting a cloth or plastic across the opening for the CRT and parking a projector behind it to display.
There's just one problem...virtually every projector under the sun measures bulb life in "hundreds of hours". At $300/ea this is not going to work as a monitoring display. Plus, we can't really turn them off because if someone needs to look at it, you apparently can't just turn them back on until the cooldown cycle has finished.
What's the solution here? Is there any way possible to use standard (read low cost) lighting in a projection system? I think these bulbs must be so costly and delicate because they have to fit in a tiny projection unit. If size/portability isn't an issue...what other options are there?
Could I get a couple of 150watt incandenscent bulbs, throw them through a polarizing filter and shine them through, say a gutted laptop display? I seem to remember that back in the beginning of time (the early 90s) the only way to do LCD projection was to lay some kind of LCD panel over an existing off-the-shelf overhead projector. Do they still make these things? Can they be modified to work with other light sources (given that overhead projector bulbs are no bargain either)
This also has to do with the home theater question, because if you watch a lot of movies or TV shows, you're going to find youself using a bulb or two each year and that's not cheap.
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I think if you know what you are looking for, Ebay can be a good source....but, remember that those bulbs can cost a few hundred to replace. Homebrew could give you decent results. I'm not sure if you set up a nice room you'd want a homebrew in the theatre room. Computer projectors are getting cheaper ($1500.00 range these days) and might be a good solution, especially if you are thinking about a HTPC. If you are even close to the $3,000.00 mark, I'd start looking into some plasma or LCD displays. With flat panel displays getting cheaper, the prospect of a projection screen becomes less and less desireable to me. To be honest, if I were looking at over $1,000, I'd rather get a HDTV. I think most a/v geeks would be disappointed with the homebrew approach to projectors. If you like DIY projects though, it could be fun.
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If you're going to be projecting you're going to lose a little clarity, so make sure you get an HDTV projector like a refurbed Piano HE-3100 HDTV projector for about a grand. Also, don't skimp on the screen you get, I recommend the Luxus Deluxe Screenwall - it has great reflective properties and microperf so you can put your center channel directly behind the center of the screen for the ultimate movie effect! Hope that helps.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur
wanted an ht in my basement, where i can control the ambient light well.
so I bought myself the sanyo plv-z1. vga/s-video/component inputs. decent brightness, contrast and resolution (yes, it supports hd). $1200 plus it came with a free 92" diag 16:9 screen.
put another $800 into some very decent mid-range speakers and a/v receiver. now I've got the coolest home theater setup that most of my friends and neighbors have ever seen.
everyone thinks i spent close to $10k, and their already dropped jaws hit the floor when i tell them it was 1/5th of that.
also, a great resource for projector info can be found at http://www.projectorcentral.com.
No, the $300 will not work. Sure, they'll be able to play TV on the wall fine, but they'll look like ass. For normal res TV, you need at least 800x600 to look good. If you plan on playing DVDs or HDTV stuff, though, you need at least 1024x768. For true HD, though, 1280 is needed. All of the projectors will scale down a higher res image to their native res, but you don't want that. Also, most higher res stuff like DVD and HD are widescreen, but most lower end projectors are 4:3. Using those for widescreen wastes resolution and, from some things I've read, isn't good for the projector.
You also need to worry about lumens depending on how dark your room is, lamp lifetime and cost, use for main TV or just a movie projector, fan noise, etc.
I would suggest a high lumen, 1024x768 projector with a widescreen native lens. If you need HD and are concerned about image quality, go for the 1280 res ones. The jump in price is enormous, but you don't have to worry about scaling, and less worry about widescreen native lens.
IANAL, but I play one on
Like a Epson Powerlite S1 or an Infocus X1. The picture will be infinitely better than what you'd get from a homebrew. Don't even consider the homebrew thing. Really. I've seen a few (based on CRT's or overhead projectors and LCD panels) and they are really poor.
Despite what videophile reviewers or salespeople will say, these entry-level projectors create a very impressive picture under any reasonable lighting conditions. And if you can't make your room reasonably dark (ie. reading should be uncomfortable) then you shouldn't be getting a projector.
I have an Epson Powerlite S1 ($900 US) in my basement theatre. Nobody that has seen it has been anything other than extremely impressed with the picture - even my brother who has a $12000 projector. Admittedly the picture isn't perfect in a videophile sense (and there's no optical zoom, so you'll want to measure things out) - but it is really very good (and as big as my wall would allow - about 11' diagonal). I'm projecting onto matte white paint. Again, it works just fine. I use my computer in there, play GameCube, watch movies - it's just really great.
Unless you're looking to spend a fair bit more than $900, you won't get something nearly as good as one of these two. You could try used, but I doubt you'll find as good a deal.
Let's not stir that bag of worms...
In fact, you probably won't even like a commercial projector unless it's very dark in the room or the projector is very bright (read "very expensive").
Front projection has a big gotcha. Notice how white your screen is? That's as black as the projected image can ever be. Any stray light really messes up the contrast.
Rear projection can provide much better contrast, but the systems are much larger and heavier.
You're likely going to see many opinions in this thread, but here are - from my perspective - the most salient points from my experience.
The first is the ongoing cost of maintenance. With any projection device, you'll need to occasionally replace the bulb - in many cases, this works out to a new bulb every 500-1000 hours. For my InFocus LP330, new bulbs cost me $150-200 each.
The second point is daytime viewing. Light output of projectors is measured in lumens, with the higher the number representing higher light output. For daytime viewing, anything under 1000 lumens is essentially useless in all but the darkest of rooms. A good, reflective screen will help a bit, but if you're planning to put the projector in a room that gets a lot of sunlight, you'll want to either invest in a brighter projector or some black-out drapes for the room. The latter option may be less expensive.
I did the same thing recently. After much research, I concluded that the $1000 InFocus X1 was an especially good value: It uses DLP technology which doesn't burn-in if you play lots of games, and is quite bright (1100 Lumens). I just took a trip to their site, and see that they now have an X2 which ups the brightness a bit for the same price. They also don't rape you quite as bad as other companies for new bulbs. The only downside to this projector is the 800x600 resolution.
BTW, on the subject of games - playing on one of these is videogame ecstasy. Definitely plan to invest in wireless controllers for each of your consoles.
As another poster mentioned, the best place to go is the AVSForum. However, here is a quick breakdown of your options.
I would not suggest rolling a DIY projector, you will get much higher quality image from a basic manufactured unit. Entry level is around $1000 at the moment, a couple thousand for a native HD unit. (You can find cheaper stuff in the used market).
There are four primary technologies being used in frong projecttion right now:
LCD - Cheap, but generally considered a good value. Lower contrast and more screendoor than other technologies, but can still look pretty good. You can get a nice 1280x720 (720p) LCD projector for about $2000. Check out the Panasonic AE500 or the Sanyo Z2. Sony's HS20 is also nice for a little more money. Lesser expensive LCDs are available but generally throw relatively poor images (IMHO).
DLP - Very popular right now. Generally provides a better picture than LCD. Limited to 720p for now. A true 16x9 HD DLP projector will run you more than an LCD. Probably looking at at around $4000 minimum to over $10000. The BenQ 8700 is a GREAT value at the moment. Lower priced DLPs are also available, all the way to $999 for the InFocus X1. These lower priced DLPs are generally not high-def and most 4x3, instead of 16x9. Use of an anamorphic lense can turn them into native 16x9 projectors, but adds cost and complexity.
DLPs have the best contrast of current consumer projectors by a good margin. One thing to be carful of is that a some of people see rainbows or get headaches when watching DLPs. This is less of an issue on newer models with a faster color wheel, but may be an issue on less expensive models. Check out brands like BenQ, InFocus, NEC, Marantz, Dwin, Sim2 for good DLP projectors.
LCOS - This is the technology of choice for JVC. It has lower contrast than DLP but throws a smoother image due to its higher fill-factor. Its often described as very "film-like". Can support higher resolutions than DLP for now. A lot of the current LCOS projectors are large and not very user friendly. There are some more players entering the LCOS market, including Sony, with a native 1080p device, but it quite expensive. I'm not quite as up-to-date on LCOS projectors as DLP and LCD, but its worth a look.
CRT - The grandaddy of projection. CRT can throw a wonderful image, altough digitals are catching up quickly. Manufacturers aren't really making them anymore so most are found in the used market. They are big, HEAVY, and require lot s of maintenence. They are also generally dimmer than digitals.
I recently got an Infocus 4800, and here are some bits of advice.
1. Get as much native resolution as you can, at least 1024 x 768.
2. Don't get too crazy with lumens. The people who do installs say most projectors need between 600 and 800 lumens. The lower the lumens, the longer the bulb lasts.
3. Make sure you buy one for the appropriate use. Some projectors are designed for conference rooms, so they are designed to make an image that doesn't change, much, look good. Some projectors are designed for home theaters, so their video processors are designed for constantly changing images.
4. Inputs, Inputs, Inputs! Get one that has Component video-in plugs(not goofy adapters), S-Video, VGA, and DVI(it's becoming the standard video output). Also, make sure it supports progressive scan and 16:9 aspect ratio(almost all do).
5. Get the best screen you can afford(see #8). I recommend either Da-Lite or Stewart.
6. Cover any/all windows/light sources. The more ambient light, the more washed out the picture.
7. Once you have it, buy a color calibration CD. It's a lot cheaper than having a professional come in and calibrate it, and you get great results.
8. Make sure your room is big enough. The first row of seating(e.g. couch) should be no closer than 1.6 times the diagonal measurement of the screen. Any closer and you see every pixel(commonly called the "screen door effect").
Also, someone mentioned rear projection. Don't go that way. Rear projection screens are almost 10x more expensive, and, since they are glass, are known to "prism" the image(the image changes as you get to more extreme viewing angles...with the light actualy being like from a prism).
I like it. I'm projecting on a white wall (no screen yet) from about 10 feet with a Dell 3300MP. It's ceiling-mounted. The image is 83 inches (4:3, diagonal, wide-angle limit). The color reproduction (even without a screen) is beautiful, and the image is very clean. You will need a progressive scan DVD player with a component video output. Images that large suffer greatly from the poor signal quality of composite video (I tried that first, it was bad enough that I couldn't even fully focus the player because the signal was blurry - still watchable though). I haven't tried S-video yet.
I paid $1750 to Dell for the projector. It's a DLP rated at 1200 lumens, and with a native resolution of 1024x768, which is enough to play widescreen DVDs at 576p (which is better than DVDs put out) without "compression".
Be careful with eBay projectors. The lamps cost a pretty penny (Like 1/4 to 1/2 the cost of the projector), and the used ones may not have much lamp life left.
Also: be sure that your lifestyle fits a projector. The room needs to be dark (with my setup at least). You can't watch a movie and do something with your hands, like my wife sometimes does, without a desk lamp, and that affects the projector's image quality.
I imagine that a screen will help a lot, but I'm not there yet. I'll probably buy something inexpensive from Draper in the next few months.
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"This $30,000 projector has better picture quality than yours."
"Oh yeah? My picture is awesome, since it's framed by $28,000 dollars in cash."
It's nothing but crumpled porno and Ayn Rand.
My living room needs a lot of brightness and lighting. My car needs a lot of brightness and lighting. But I don't pay $200/bulb to keep either supplied. As I said, I think a significant portion of the cost is that they need a small package. I can buy a 500Watt halogen for my floor standing torch lamp for what...$20? That's got to be just about as bright as whatever's in your average consumer projector. So why does it cost $20 in a lamp and $200 in a projector. The bulb isn't doing anything technological! It's a light source, period.
This is so completely uninformed it is reduculous. Its clear you have not actually researched the issue. There is a HUGE difference between your $20 floor lamp bulb and a projector bulb. There is quite a bit of engineering that goes into making projector bulbs because thay need a very specific spectra of output. Your floor lamp does not put out anything close to 6500k light (video standard). Put your lamp bulb in a projector and you will have a projector that will be impossible to calibrate to any sort of decent color balance.
I love how everyone seems to be bitchin' and moanin' about projector's limited bulb life. I was worried about it too when I was choosing my projector but then did some math and calmed down.
The bulb life on my Sony VPL-HS20 is 3000 hours in "cinema mode". I figure that with my schedule I won't be able to watch more than 1 hour per day (aside from an occasional LOR marathon). So that gives me a whooping 3,000 days before bulb goes caput. That's over 8 friggin' years! I figure that in eight years technology will advance so far that instead of spending $$$ on a new bulb I'll get a new projector or whatever the imaging device de la creme will be. (300dpi wall-to-wall imaging nanopaper, anyone?)
As for people saying that projectors are expesnive, I have to disagree. I get an eyepopping 120" diag. image for under $3K. Even if plasma screen of this size existed, it would probably cost over $100K. Of course, a nice Home Theater PC that is hooked up to the projector through DVI and an excellent 120" sceeen from Carada.com cost me an extra 1.5K, it is still a bargain. The only drawback is that the room has to be relatively dark, but this is not a problem in my case because it is in the basement.
"You mortals are so obtuse." -Q
My uncle is a movie-techno-geek from a long way back, and recently set up just such a system. He found two things that needed adjusting.
The first was that these projectors are designed for computer presentations in large rooms, so the light was ridiculously bright for DVDs and such in a home theater. Solution: a neutral density filter between the optics and the screen.
The second was that the colour temperature was much too high (too blue). Solution: a warming filter. It's a very pale rose pink colour. People don't look like aliens anymore.
The results are striking. I'm tempted myself.
...laura
You wrote: "Your floor lamp does not put out anything close to 6500k light... Put your lamp bulb in a projector and you will have a projector that will be impossible to calibrate to any sort of decent color balance."
That isn't the issue either.
Flat panel fluorescent backlights and other technologies put out uniform light with great color balance. Furthermore, filters can be used to shape the source and adjust color balance.
The issue is the compactness (light source density) being high enough yet proportionately sized with respect to the projecting and condensing lenses and the LCD/DLP imaging element. A big projector can use a bigger, cheaper light bulb given the same desired screen size.
I'm not saying that projector bulb prices aren't inflated, but they are certainly a LONG way from your floor lamp analogy.
Really? OK, maybe his analogy ($20 for a 500w floor lamp bulb) which makes the projector bulb only 10x to 20x as expensive. But if he really pays anywhere near $20 for a simple 500w halogen bulb, he is getting taken.
In reality, I buy 500w halogen bulbs for less than $1/ea, and they put out visually the same color of light as the $5-$10 GE bulbs and seem to last about the same hours (usually physical shock takes them out before the wear out). So you are telling me that something justifies 200x to 400x the price, which seems to be the typical range for the mid-grade LCD and DLP projectors? Or do you think 20x to 40x is justified, and the other 10x is just an "inflated" price?
Given the science of light color in a halogen bulb, I find it nearly impossible to imagine any justification for a 200x to 400x price delta even if 10x or 100x of it was inflation. A halogen light isn't rocket science, is it? It wasn't when I was taking my stage lighting classes 20+ years ago...
The bulb envelope must be quartz to withstand the heat, and the color of that quartz filters the color of light from the filament. The temperature of the filament determines the color it produces, and that temperature is primarily determined by the available current at the applied voltage. The halogen in the envelope helps the evaporating tungsten from the filament deposit back onto the filament instead of onto the envelope, but it isn't 100% effective so the envelope gradually darkens, and the filament develops a thin spot, and that leads to the death of the bulb.
I wonder how much it would add to the cost of the projector to use a little sensor to detect the color of the light, and a bit of active control to adjust the current thru the filament to change the temperature?
Of course it couldn't compensate 100% for flaws in a cheap bulb or the effects of bulb wear, but surely with $200 to $400 to play with, it could do a lot.
sdb
A few points about the HS20 from personal experience. It *does* have amazing image quality and resolution.
But...
I went through three brand new HS20's (all sent back to Sony) before giving up on it. They all suffered from the same problem which was an inconsistent color temperature. For example, with a white screen, the lower left corner was pinkish and the top right was bluish. All three exhibited this behavior. I could get the same effect on a black screen with no inputs, so it was not my input. It seemed like a manufacturing defect with one or more of the panels being "pinched".
Second, the color registration on the three panels was never spot on and it's not adjustable. So the crosshair in the middle of the screen was white, but all the others had blue or red fringes.
Third, I wanted an all digital system. This projector has DVI input which is sweet. Unfortunately, at the native resolution of the panels (16x9 at 1388x768), it only accepts a refresh of 56.6Hz. That means movies show a slight jerkiness since the frame refresh does not sync up with output of the computer. Using a lower resolution results in blurring and scaling of the image inside of the projector which totally negates the point of a pure digital picture (and letting the computer handle scaling, etc). It also makes for a crappy desktop.
Sony also refuses to divulge any info about supported display modes. One support idiot claimed that connecting a PC to the projector via DVI was not supported and could damage the projector or PC. Sometimes Sony's proprietary ways are a little too much to bear.
I owned the previous generation of VPL Sony home theater projectors and they did not exhibit these problems (color and alignemnt). I'm hoping these flaws are fixed because it's an otherwise amazing piece of hardware.