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'Perfect' Zelda NES Speed Record Beaten
An anonymous reader writes "The last verified human Legend of Zelda (NES) speed record was 34 minutes. A few months ago, a re-recording emulator was used to make a 'perfect' video which was 31 and a half minutes. A team worked to optimize the path, and using an emulator created a new video which is 26:56, four and a half minutes faster. The video is 14% faster, and is the first Zelda run to be under a half hour. Furthermore, it achieved a sub-27 minute time, which was presumed impossible. Definitely worth checking out - you can grab the BitTorrent version of the AVI replay at Bisqwit's NES time-attack movie page." There's a thread on the NESvideos forum discussing the attempt, but can anyone succinctly explain the exact tricks the team used to speed up their time?
Geek Olympics. Let the games begin!
can anyone succinctly explain the exact tricks the team used to speed up their time?
Hum... Frame skipping?
I live in Soviet Canuckistan you insensitive clod!
I've beaten the game extremely quickly using emulation by cheating and saving state to gain rupees quickly at the gambling house, then getting the blue ring and other important artifacts right off the bat. Speeds things up like crazy.
Read jack phelps dot net
Optimizing is not that hard if you can do it with software. atleast not if you do ACM challenges.
I have a huge game collection of oldschool titles I grew up with. Once in a while I pick them up to play through old favorites, but I am so busy nowadays that I rarely have 10 minutes to spare.
Often times I just make a mental list of games that I'll play through again someday when I have the time. Well these Time attacks are a blessing in disguise, because I can relive all my old memories of childhood faves, not to mention in usually under 30 minutes!
YEAH! THANK YOU GUYS!!
A few years ago Slashdot ran a story about a product that was used to cut a single frame per second out of television broadcasts in order to fit in an extra commercial. Maybe they used a similar trick :]
Do we have any proof that this Zelda run isn't faked? As we saw with Mario, it's very possible to get a speed run that appears to be real by manipulating every single frame in an emulator...
Goo goo g'joob.
You should read [link=http://bisqwit.iki.fi/jutut/nesvideos/whyhow .html#why]this page[/link] where they openly explain that they use tricks in emulators to ensure a 100% smooth play.
I especially like that they are honest about this, and the part where they comment on stupid, loud-mouth people in forums that think they're being cheated before reading the FAQ...
Don't worry, you don't apply to that group...
Can anyone comment on the accuracy of the speed of these emulators? Considering the dead time in just walking across the screen and loading a new screen, I don't think 14% increase there would very noticable. But details like that make a big difference. Personally, I'd have trouble trusting a recond time not played on an original NES.
Anm
Before anyone else posts something about how they "faked" the god damned movie, please refer to this page on thier website: http://bisqwit.iki.fi/jutut/nesvideos/whyhow .html#why
They are very open about using various tricks of the emulators to achieve a quick run of the game. Even if you consider it "cheating" that is very much beside the point, because they clearly state that it is not so much a competition as much as for entertainment.
They also comment on the idiots on various forums around the web that bitch and moan about their assumptions that these videos are faked, who also don't read the FAQ. I would hereby like to welcome you all (who have bitched and moaned about just that) to that group. Thank you for your contribution to stupidity.
If you'd look at the source site, you'll see that the movie file is availiable as a famtasia movie file.
Famtasia movies only record the state of the controller.
Attractive female: Hi, my name is Renee. Wanna dance?
Nerdy guy: (snort!) Who, me? (snort!) I'm not much of a dancer, I really don't do this kind of thing much!
Attractive female: Oh, well, that's ok. We can just talk! I'm a supermodel and just got back from Europe. What do you do?
Nerdy guy: I play Zelda. I've been playing it almost every day since it came out in the stores, which was about ten years ago. I don't have a job, per se, but it's OK because my parent have stopped bugging me about moving out and I live in their basement. As long as I don't make too much noise they leave me alone.
Attractive female: So, um. Yeah. What is Zelda?
Nerdy guy: Oh, it this really great video game that I've solved a few hundred times. I'm just trying to solve it faster now, to set records about those loosers who can't break that half hour mark. You should see me play sometime!
Nerdy guy: Hello? Where'd she go? Aw man, I didn't even get to see her tits!
...And you have a girlfriend too, right?
Don't forget about my site. But what's a shame is that the existance of this cheated emulator site causes people to not want to bother doing speed runs for NES games anymore because then they'll just be compared against these and told they suck. I've been trying to convince TSA to do a LoZ run for me, he says he can get less than 29 minutes, but that'd still be almost 2 minutes slower than their "perfection" that I have no interest in watching.
Speed Demos Archive - Lots of speed runs!
A RTFA post. ;)
Read their site. Please note that thier purpose is in no way to compete with legitimate speed runs.
Stick your self-plugs up your ass while you're at it.
Doesn't beating Zelda mean beating the ENTIRE game, not just half of it?
The second quest is generally more difficult than the first. Saying you've set a speed record for beating the game but not even counting the second quest is pretty lame if you ask me.
With that said, the gameplay was pretty impressive, it's definately the fastest I've ever seen the first half of the game accomplished.
I'm not an expert in this field, but for time run competitions and such, arn't you supposed to use a real nes with a real cart? I vaguely remember reading rules that said emulators are not allowed, or maybe that was just for a specific competition?
upon reviewing the video, and comparing it to my nes emulator (rock nes) running zelda, the video game speed seems increased, or at least link's run speed. I compared different scenes throughout the video two different ways, with myself doing the same actions in real time to the video, and the "stopwatch" way. I tested various scenes that ranged from running straight across from 1 screen to the next, to ones where more controlled movement was involved, and in all of them the video was signifigantly faster. I have no doubt this is why the video is "14%" faster, most likely because the emulator's game speed was tweaked up 14%. It would be possible to record a demo in real time, then play it back at a slightly increased speed
Heck, even the creators themselves admit this.
We often compete for speed, but sometimes a two seconds slower movie has better chance to get published than a faster movie, if it keeps the audience entertained better. It all depends on various things, but generally more speed is better.
Rob
to everyone who left their bittorrent running. Got an awesome download rate this time.
I haven't played the NES Zelda games, so this game seems really confusing to me. Was there any form of "enforced" sequence in the game? In Metroid you had to use tricks like bomb jumping and the like to sequence break, but there doesn't seem to be anything like that involved in this video. Did I miss something or does Zelda 1 really not enforce the order of the dungeons (or even going through most rooms in the dungeons)? Are the bosses really that easy? Why can you shoot your sword without full health or any upgrades? Do you really start out with the bombs? Are they using some kind of rapid fire to increase the damage done by their sword and bombs?
These videos were NOT sped up. They should run at the exact same speed. No frames were removed, no frames were edited, this is actual gameplay that you could get if you pressed the buttons at the exact same time. The only reason that this is 14% faster is because a better route was thought of. The olny "cheating" that was used was slowing down the gameplay(the actual movie runs at normal speed though), and rerecording.
Way back when i had this golden cartridge in my mittens, it took me 3 months to complete it. The time i've waisted... But those were good times =P Best timewaste ever!!
Check my site: http://pixel.pagina.nl
Whoops. I put this in the wrong place. These videos were NOT sped up. They should run at the exact same speed. No frames were removed, no frames were edited, this is actual gameplay that you could get if you pressed the buttons at the exact same time. The only reason that this is 14% faster is because a better route was thought of. The only "cheating" that was used was slowing down the gameplay(the actual movie runs at normal speed though), and rerecording.
That's three separate sentences highlighting three separate points. STFU.
'Standards' in computing only impress those who are impressed by things like 'standards'.
Using an emulator and save states to redo every single move over and over again and compiling them into a single movie, imo, isn't talent. ANYONE can get a fast time with emulators, because you can continuously correct your mistakes as you make them, essentially erasing your errors. All that's needed is time. True speed runs are runs that are done WITHOUT emulation, WITHOUT taking out mistakes, doing everything as quickly as you can do without being able to bail yourself out by rewinding the game back with a save state. THAT takes talent. It takes dedication, time, patience, and a true mastery of a game.
Using an emulator to compile moves into a "perfect" run can be amusing, but, by no means, should it be praised, or considered talent, nor should it be recognized or publicly released, because it downplays the mastery of the true speed runs.
Attractive female: Hi, my name is Renee. Wanna dance?
Jock: (snort!) Who, me? (snort!) I'm not much of a dancer, I really don't do this kind of thing much!
Attractive female: Oh, well, that's ok. We can just talk! I'm a supermodel and just got back from Europe. What do you do?
Jock: I play football. I've been playing it almost every day since I was able to walk, which was about twenty years ago. I don't have a job, per se, but it's OK because the college pays me money to play this game. As long as I don't get in the newspapers outside the sports section, I have a free ride.
Attractive female: So, um. Yeah. What's football?
Jock: Oh, it this really great sport that I've played a few thousand times. I'm just trying to play it better now, to maybe get a major-league contract. You should see me play sometime!
Jock: Hello? Where'd she go? Aw man, I didn't even get to see her tits!
That's why they're not calling it a Speed Run. It's a Time Attack.
So instead of doing a Speed Run with 100% talent, they're making a Time Attack with 10% talent and 90% perspiration. Everyone should be able to admire both, unless they're too stupid to understand the difference.
Using an emulator to compile moves into a "perfect" run can be amusing, but, by no means, should it be praised, or considered talent, nor should it be recognized or publicly released, because it downplays the mastery of the true speed runs.
*sigh*
Look, if you don't like the concept of emulator-assisted time attack videos, fine, don't download 'em. But who are you to say that such videos shouldn't be "publicly released"? Your opinion is like your asshole.
Personally, I enjoy the hell out of the videos, because they celebrate the elegance of the game designs themselves, even if the humans playing them don't have perfect reflexes.
In terms that you can understand, it's like jerking off to an airbrushed Playboy spread instead of a dingy polaroid of your mom -- you don't care if it's REAL or not, it's the unattainable IDEAL that you're after.
Complaining that timeattacks don't require talent because they're "fake" is a lot like claiming pro wrestling doesn't require talent -- it might seem that way at first, but I bet you'd be crying a different tune if you were ever to try it yourself.
-Poot, working on an NES Strider timeattack (32:35 and dropping)
Except pro wrestlers do require a great amount of physical strength, speed, and endurance. These so called "time attacks" don't require anything except for an emulator and patience. Seriously, anyone can do trial and error against a certain enemy in zelda until you get things right as quickly as possible. To simply re-record over and over again to achieve "perfection," imo, just doesn't require talent, imo.
Even if I were to grant you that they didn't need much talent for the gameplay, a hell of a lot more went into it than just re-recording over and over again. Or do you think they actually tried every possible way to go through the game (several million at least) and then picked the quickest one?
Funny, but not funny enough to lose karma points for acknowledging. :-)
I however never really go for speed when I (re)play a game. I generaly like to look around a lot and do EVERYTHING in a game. It still takes me a few hours to beat Zelda because I do silly things like get the white sword, blue ring, and anything else I can possibly get before even entering level 1. My favorite trick though has always been getting the white sword w/o getting the basic one.
Just my 1.5
I ran for about 1 minute. If I liked the time, I recorded it. If it wasn't up to par, I stopped my stopwatch, turned it back to the end of my last segment, and tried again once I caught my breath. When I combined the times and distances, it was marathon length... but in less than an hour and a half! Call Guiness!!
*yawn*
Seriously, wake me when somebody does this in a single run without restarts on original hardware. Otherwise it is missing the point, not me (as the FAQ would want me to believe).
Well, if you think it's that easy, then you are free to try to beat the timeattacks. Good luck.
Making a timeattack, specially on such complex games as zelda is much more than just rerecording. Rerecording helps you correct your immediate mistakes. However, it doesn't help you choose your optimal route nor your strategies.
True, anyone can make a fast run. However, not everyone can make it as fast as in these videos, no matter how many times they rerecord.
If it was that easy as you claim, there wouldn't be but just one version of each video. However, as the player studies and discovers new routes and new tricks and new optimizations he is able to make an even faster run. And rerecording has nothing to do with this.
So go ahead, make a sub-30mins zelda run. But no looking for the optimal route from the existing video, you have to discover it yourself. You'll find it surprisingly difficult.