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OpenOffice.org, MS Office 2003 Compared, Evaluated

kotj.mf writes "eWeek is running a relatively lengthy article comparing OpenOffice.org and Microsoft Office 2003, as part of an IT decision whether to migrate a 300-plus userbase office away from Office 97/2000. The not-so-surprising conclusion: OO.o can be a better deal for smaller companies that can't fully leverage Redmond's volume licensing. Hell, it'd be cheap at twice the price."

61 of 665 comments (clear)

  1. Not only volume licensing... by jargoone · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I work for a not-for-profit company that qualifies Microsoft's charity licensing. I haven't ever seen the actual prices, but from what I hear, the per-seat costs for Office are less than even the highest-tiered volume licensing.

    Kinda hard for me to fulfill my conquest of moving our mail away from Exchange. :-(

    1. Re:Not only volume licensing... by sid+crimson · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Volume Licenses:

      $67 Office Pro License
      $35 Media
      $7 Exchange CAL
      $135 Windows Server 2003 License ....

      Cheap!

      -sid

    2. Re:Not only volume licensing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'll say. But university pricing can be even better.

      At my university you can get pretty much any Microsoft product for free. We have a program that gives students credit for designing technical goodies for local non-profits. Each team gets up to 100 licenses of ANYTHING Microsoft for their team and partnered org.

      Yes, my advisor did tell us to "not worry about" building an application that used a Microsoft SQL server license on every client desktop. Of course, for the project partner it really wouldn't matter since they were getting it for free, but still... there's just something wrong about that.

      Hell, we even get free Microsoft Press books and free tech support, too. A good deal for both sides, but I imagine they get to write all this off as a donation when the material donation is really negligible.

    3. Re:Not only volume licensing... by Micah · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Only in the United States. I work for a non-profit in Ecuador, and we have to pay the full price for MS products. In the past, we got a huge donation from someone in MS, which is why we are currently using Exchange and Office 97.

      But the time has come to think about upgrades and we can probably no longer get the donation. We'll probably be replacing Exchange with Postfix very soon, and I'll be pushing like heck to get OpenOffice in the door more. :-) Our biggest problem is Access; once we can find a reasonable replacement for that, hello Linux desktops! (Well, for some people. A lot of folks here are into advanced media stuff and Linux won't be practical for quite some time yet.)

  2. But slashdot is telling me something else... by GoofyBoy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "Independent research analyst META Group found that Linux costs are not lower than Windows."

    Such conflicting views.

    --
    The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
  3. Why take eWeek seriously? by eddy · · Score: 1, Interesting

    They're the ones publishing the never ending stream of F/OSS/Linux lies from The Enderle Troll, no?

    Save yourself a click.

    --
    Belief is the currency of delusion.
  4. Re:point of comparison by AKAImBatman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The only thing that matters to me is whether OO.o comes with Clippy or not!

    Amazingly enough, OOo has this little exploding light bulb that's almost as annoying. Pops up every time OOo corrects a mistake, saves a document, or thinks you're looking at it weird. Its only positive attribute is that it isn't animated like Clippy.

  5. The answer is PDF by Gothmolly · · Score: 5, Interesting

    For all the documents you absolutely must exchange with people, PDF fits the bill 99 times out of 100. How often do you email an EDITABLE document to someone, have them edit it, then send it back? OOo's "Export to PDF" fits this nicely. I have a 'stealth' OOo install here at work, most other people fear the fact that somehow I scored Adobe Acrobat. PDF simply rules.

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    1. Re:The answer is PDF by Paulrothrock · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, for the simple fact that most HR people, well, those I've encountered, don't know how to make editable PDFs. My job application was handled by an IT HR person who had no problem sending me a PDF application.

      --
      I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
  6. Re:It seems obvious by pelgv · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The article states that for the tests, users where easily moved from M$ to OOo... exept for those who use exell in a profesional way!

  7. PowerPoint/Impress comparison lacking by therblig · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It was a short review, but one problem I had with their comparison of PowerPoint/Impress was that Impress had a hard time working with a PowerPoint file that had a lot of imbedded Excel and Word information. Frankly, PowerPoint isn't nearly as good at handling those things as it ought to be either. Most of the testing was done to see how well an office could migrate from MS Office to OpenOffice, so the concern is a legitemate one, but I think that one will see that Impress will handle Writer and Calc files as well or better than PowerPoint will handle Word and Excel files.

    --

    I struggled for days and days and all I got was this lousy sig.

  8. Re:Needs better MS Office compatiblity by jcrash · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yeah, used to be Excel wasn't done until it broke lotus. Now, I guess Office isn't done until it breaks OO.

    --
    I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them. Isaac Asimov (1920 - 1992)
  9. They're never right on anything that matters. by eddy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    They're just another troll for hire.

    How this this go? Quote from 2002

    The Meta Group last week issued a controversial report of its own. In the report, Meta forecasted a move by Microsoft to support Linux in its Web, groupware and database server products by late 2004.

    Guess you guys got a few months more to fail that one completely. Hold your breath!

    --
    Belief is the currency of delusion.
  10. Large Corporations? by 4of12 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'd agree that small businesses, shoestring budgets, home, school, charity, underdeveloped nations would be better off going OO.o.

    At large corporations, smooth 2-way compatibility with MS Office is a must have and OO.o is not there yet.

    It's ironic, though. If a few of the larger MS Office licensees were to pool their resources they could contract out to improve OO.o so that it would be sufficiently compatible.

    But there's the tragedy of the commons: even though many would benefit from lower costs, etc., everyone hopes "George will do it" I'll just wait until its good enough for me and meanwhile I'll shell out for MS Office.

    But the more small time users lap over the barrier, the more it wears down.

    A day will come when a Fortune 500 company makes the jump. It will look impressive, but it will just be the culmination of years of work by others on OO.o

    --
    "Provided by the management for your protection."
  11. Re:You've got to be kidding... by prostoalex · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Very true.

    To quote Miguel de Icaza from today's story, "Everyone is arguing about tiny bits of the equation. [...] They are all fine points of view, but what makes Longhorn dangerous for the viability of Linux on the desktop is that the combination of Microsoft deployment power, XAML, Avalon and .NET is killer."

    Admittedly OpenOffice is pretty good if you're migrating from Office 95/97 (more 97 than 95). But start anywhere at Office 2000 level, and there are some things that are copied into OpenOffice on an acceptable level, but for even the slightest deviation off the regular path for creating and saving a document you're penalized by not having a certain small feature, that exists in MS Office, but was not important enough to include in OO.

  12. And the Equation Editor rocks! by IceAgeComing · · Score: 2, Interesting


    OpenOffice also gives you the choice of building equations by hand or by text primitives (similar to LateX). Learning the syntax for sums, etc. takes a few minutes, but then it's supremely easy to create the coolest equations with no fuss.

  13. some typical FUD by happyfrogcow · · Score: 4, Interesting

    CON: ...
    Lack of traditional support Office suites typically do not require much vendor support, but the fact that OpenOffice.org is an open-source project means software support must come from the community, generally spread out across various Web sites and newsgroups.


    Ok, so tell me again why the guy was thinking about switching from MS to OO? Oh yeah, "Benincasa is looking to upgrade because Microsoft has discontinued distribution of new licenses for Office 2000 and Office 97"

    So MS won't support what they deem "old" products at all, and that isn't listed as a "Con" for them. Yet distributed, widely available support is a "Con" for OO?

    And in the "Con" for MS high licensing costs, it doesn't mention that these will be recurring costs, at the whim of Microsoft and their End of Life policies.

  14. Re:Needs better MS Office compatiblity by mopslik · · Score: 5, Interesting

    mangles documents when passed back and forth between MS Office and OpenOffice

    As someone who also has to transfer documents between the two applications, I can honestly say that most of the time, Office does far more mangling than OO.o does. Hell, Office often can't even properly read older versions of Office itself!

    OO.o isn't completely in the clear, but I find it's more consistent.

  15. Re:My personal feelings by abischof · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Despite having Office X on my Mac, I use OpenOffice all the time now. It's amazing how much it grows on you despite the initially underwhelming first impressions.

    I like OpenOffice.org as much as the next guy, or maybe even more -- I've used OOo on my Windows box exclusively for about two years now. But, I just can't get used to OOo on my PowerBook. I really wanted to like it, but the OS X version left me wanting more. Really, it's hardly a port at all -- it's just the Unix version running under X11 for OS X. So, it has the Unix interface and it's lacking the usual Mac OS niceties such as the Aqua look and even the nifty Finder-ized open/save dialogs.

    At this point, I'm just torn between trying to find MS Office/Mac for cheap (perhaps an older version) or just waiting for the proper Aqua port of OOo (even though that could be a while).

    --

    Alex Bischoff
    HTML/CSS coder for hire

  16. Re:You've got to be kidding... by Pahalial · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Why put in the last two points? Your second I could see if you argue that "normal users" aren't going to be able to open a help file and/or read a support BBS and/or google, but 10 seconds longer? I'm sorry, since when did 10 seconds become an earth-shattering timeframe? Remember now, these are small companies, not companies whose CEOs make $10 in those 10 seconds. I'll give you the finance one, but for a (very) small business that has only one accountant, this could mean simply one version of Excel versus 10 versions of the full Office suite. Still a considerable gain at that point.

    --
    Stuff.
  17. Re:Compatibility by ryanw · · Score: 2, Interesting
    If "image is everything", you're better off sending a .pdf document. It's not just OO.o-to-MS that creates a problem; it's moving from one version of MS to another too.
    As you probably know, not every instance can be solved with pdf. If you're trying to work on some numbers with a client or any sort of 'working document' you can't send it as a pdf.
  18. Re:My personal feelings by JWW · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Thats because that while everyone moans and complains about how you can't live without office, its still just a word processor, spreadsheet ... to most people.

    I rebuilt a PC for my inlaws last year and when they asked about office, I said it would cost them about $300 (consumer version, no student discount .....), plus they are not willing to run an "unlicensed" version.

    I installed openoffice and it worked like a charm. A couple of weeks getting used to it and then it was no trouble. The only extra help needed was instruction in importing and saving to office formats. I know the filters aren't perfect, but being that the machine was only being used for basic word processing and spreadsheets, it wasn't an issue.

  19. People Didn't Notice by sigemund · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I work at a school -- We don't license MS Office for the students, but this year is the first that we have put MS Office on every faculty machine (about 60). I also put OpenOffice on every machine. We have been 100% Wordperfect until this year, but the new president "likes MS Office", so he's slowly forcing everything that direction. When I rolled out this year's install image, I had made a bit of a mistake (completely unintentionally). When someone double-clicks on a MS Office document, it opens in OpenOffice instead of MSOffice. This has basically "forced" everyone to use OpenOffice.

    And HARDLY ANYONE has noticed. Only two or three of the faculty (those who call themselves the Techno-elite . . . yeah right) have switched it back to MS. Most people don't realize they're not using MSOffice. I'm of the opinion that I could COMPLETELY remove MSOffice, rename all the OpenOffice icons to the MS equivalent, and we'd be in business.

  20. Re:You've got to be kidding... by ejdmoo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I was also pissed that they didn't include Outlook in the comparison. Anyone who's worked with Outlook 2003 will know what I mean. It's by far the biggest upgrade to Office since 97. I can't stand Outlook 2002, no less 2000! To say it's a fair comparison, then leave a competitor's strongest asset, is totally bogus. And, just in case you're wondering, no you can't buy Office without Outlook. The lightest weight version (retail) still has Word, Excel, Powerpoint, and Outlook. proof

  21. My OO experience by IgD · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I do a lot of PowerPoint presentations in my line of work. I played around with OO for a bit especially the Presenter application. Two key points:
    1) There seems to only be a single slide theme in there. OO needs to bundle more presentation templates in there. (Fortunately I have my own)
    2) It's hard to browse between slides. With PowerPoint, all you have to do is hit page up or down to change slides in the editor. OO has these weird tab things you have to click on.

  22. Re:The Word/open answer is NOT PDF by managerialslime · · Score: 2, Interesting

    /rant on/

    Haven't we covered this many times before?

    Assuming only one of your users (whether you support 1 or 1,000 of them) needs to exchange editable complex documents with a MS Word shop even occasionally. Adobe doesn't cut it, nor do any of the commercial or open products. (Try a complex document with images and outlines within different parts of a table.) Yuk!

    So...... if you start by converting your existing base of users to an open product, you are already supporting TWO word processors and the conversion of documents between same.

    Now you've got to deal with resentment between those users who think you are "favoring" the ones you "let" buy MS Word. Can you say Career Limiting Maneuver (CLM)? Sure I knew you could.

    I don't care if Word costs $100 a year per copy and open is free because the competent support desk resource costs are far and away our resource whose demand far exceeds hours available.

    Meanwhile, any external vendor who tries to send us non-MS stuff has never given us grief when we require .doc format of them.

    I'm not saying this is fair. I'm not saying this is right. I am saying this is reality.

    Either we legally and ethically reverse engineer EACH .doc interface as it evolves or face many slow and painful years prior working toward open products.

    I'm more hopeful by colinux (http://www.colinux.org/) where one has a fighting chance of introducing non-MS components (PHP, MySQL, Apache) and running them in tandem with MS office as needed.

    /rant>

    --
    Live Long and Prosper - Thanks Leonard. You are missed.
  23. OOo major bugs must be fixed first... by torok · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I love the principle behind OOo and wish them all the luck, but until they fix some of the major bugs, like the three-year-old autofilter bug in calc that allows you to modify/delete data that you can't see (Bug 2977), OOo will remain the tool of secretaries and non-power-users. One cannot use calc for serious scientific work (yet). *sigh*

  24. Re:Big difference... by MikeCapone · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Cost to install is not the only cost. With a free product, your own IT guys are the only resource if you encounter a bug or difficult error situation. If you're paying for a license, you have another level of support, i.e. the developer.

    It has been said many times before, and better than I could, but:

    When you find a bug in a Microsoft product, can you really get hold of the programmers? Is the helpdesk really helpful? Are Microsoft products (Office, in this case) really more bug-free than the major alternatives?

    I has also been said that it's often a lot easier to just email or call the OSS programmers and to talk directly to the person who coded the app you are using, and suggestions for new features have more chances of being listened to in the OSS world.

  25. International support on OS X by .com+b4+.storm · · Score: 4, Interesting

    One of the main problems with OpenOffice on the Mac is that it does not yet use Aqua for its user interface, and a side effect of this is you cannot use the different international input modes in OS X to type in OO. So I can't just switch to Chinese and start typing in OO, as it does not know how to handle it. Without that, half my use for a word processor goes out the window.

    There may be a way to rig the X11 environment or OpenOffice itself to allow Chinese input in another fashion, but it's just one more usability knock against the program when run on Mac OS X. Ugly UI, incosistencies with the Mac's interface conventions, international input kludges, etc. Not to mention the performance issues, and missing niceties like AppleScript automation (which can be done on ANY native OS X app, even if it's not designed for it), non-crappy file dialogs, etc.

    Microsoft Word may have its share of problems, but at least it can start in less than 45-60 seconds, and it follows most of the Apple UI conventions. So while OpenOffice is nice, it definitely is not a decent substitute for Office X at this stage.

    --
    "Wow, you're like some kind of superhero able to ward off happiness and success at every turn."
    -- Ryan Stiles
  26. Article fails to mention Sharepoint Office 2003 by Forgery · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Unless I missed it, the article fails to mention anything about Office 2003's Sharepoint portal. Although sold as a separate product, this is the next step in the evolution of office products. From what I can tell, OpenOffice is still competing with 1998-2000 era products for base functionality. For small-medium offices, Sharepoint can become an entire document management system and workflow all integrated very tightly with Office 2003.

    Say I'm creating an Outlook 2003 group appointment. With 2 clicks (inside Outlook), I can create a portal site for the meeting which includes a discussion list, document/picture library, agenda, surveys, etc. No programming and very easy for the average user to accomplish.

    Say I'm in Word working on a document and I'd like to get my attorney to look at it. With 2 clicks (inside Word), I can create a portal site to allow him to review the document. We can discuss it using the discussion features, and he can create different versions. Using the web folders functionality, this entire process is seemless (no downloading the file locally, editing it, and uploading...just hit save and it saves automatically back to the portal).

  27. Specialized Software Supports MS by cenonce · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I have put OpenOffice on three machines in our office, but mostly for the ability to open and use Excel and PowerPoint files. I have used Writer in place of Word and it was pretty quick to learn and I wouldn't complain about some of the problems with it when it is free and very full featured.

    But, in our field (legal), we need Word or Word Perfect. So, we've been buying copies of Works 2003 which contains Word XP/2002 at 40 bucks a pop on eBay. We just don't need Excel or PowerPoint to pony up for MS Office, and can use OO.org when we need those programs.

    I would love to go to OpenOffice in its entirety, but the problem is that many popular and specialized programs in the legal field support Word or WordPerfect and will never support something like OO.org (heck, our scheduling program doesn't support the main file being on a Linux server, which would have saved us some money for getting additional licenses for WinNT).

    Our scheduling program (Amicus Attorney) supports creating documents through its scheduler/address book only though Word or WordPerfect.

    Until OO.org figures out a way to interact with specialized programs in specialized fields (legal, medicine, engineering, etc), I think it will be hard for many companies to make a switch.

  28. Re:Big difference... by lfourrier · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I have one version of office. I paid it. It is 97.
    And it cannot open recent word documents. So saying M$ as no migration cost is PURE BULLSHIT.

    Don't tell me it is normal, it is too old because:
    1) the PII/400 I bought it with is still more than enough for bureautic, and I don't see the first reason to upgrade.
    2) OOo can open, even if not completely correctly the Word files I cannot open with Office97.

  29. Re:Not This Debate Again by grunt107 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Perhaps it is you that needs experience. Although it has gotten better over the years, the MS products have had serious bugs that advanced-functionality users have repeatedly experienced. For specfific examples, try these: While opening a document from a WINDOWS2000 server, MSWord(also 2000) dies and corrupts the file. At what point is there a user fuck-up? Maybe they should not have double-clicked to start the file up and done a File|Open instead. Dumbasses. Or the same error in reverse, where changes were made and the save dies (icon selected), again corrupting the file and thereby losing the changes (the backup save is close but not complete). Perhaps the user should have done File|Save. Shitheads. And the Man IS out to get me... It's time to start skimming the gene pool

  30. Switching from OOo to Office by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    To help readers guage the ease with which corporations could switch from MS Office to OpenOffice, the article includes caveats like the following:

    "Certain Impress capabilities, such as three-dimensional text in presentations, did not carry across to PowerPoint."

  31. Re:Big difference... by be951 · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Getting support on MS Office from Microsoft is a joke - if you value your time and money, you're better off using Google, just as you would with OpenOffice.

    That's probably a fair assessment, but with a vastly larger user base, any issue you encounter in Office is more likely to be known and documented (by someone).

    When it comes to advanced features there are a lot of features in MS Office that aren't in OO, however, these are features that aren't used by ~80-95% of your userbase, depending on your industry.

    Yeah, that is something you'd have to have your users evaluate, e.g. in a trial conversion.

  32. Re:Big difference... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Exchange.

    So a company has to have an Exchange admin. And since Exchange can't face "the net" directly or risk getting black eyes, knuckle sandwhiches, and hackers asking for it's lunch money every single day...you'll have to hire a good unix admin to build a *nix smtp proxy for it.

    disagree?

    show some balls and reply your exchange servers IP address below.

    we'll see if it's running by the end of the day. (and no, it won't be slashdotted...you be wishing it had when i'm done with it)

  33. Re:It seems obvious by narcc · · Score: 3, Interesting
    These were not computer illiterate people either.

    In my beginners class, I teach OO.o along side MS Office. Often times, my very computer illiterate students have trouble understanding that there are differences. (e.g. They have no trouble using the free alternative.)

    Of course, they don't use much beyond the basic tools -- but I'd venture that the majority of office users don't either.
  34. READ THIS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    It will be _VERY_ difficult to make OO read and save perfectly MS Office docs. What we need to do is to install both in the same machine and start producing documents with OO.

    I started doing this, and it promotes the knowledge and use of OO. As of version 1.1.1, I am proud to present it to the people. Right now, MS Office CANNOT READ OO docs _AT ALL_. ***Isn't this a great advantage?*** In a few years, when MS Office finally can read and write OO docs, it will be too late or too expensive for people to pay for MS software just to read their OO documents. Office is its worst enemy. Too bloathed, too user un-friendly, too expensive, and the power that it has is not really a big deal for 90% of the users. It is just that it is the "default" application that converts a PC into a typewritter machine. People is surprised when I install a program without the need of a stupid number (as if a # were to stop illegal copying...), and to print PDF is a brilliant add-on. Very well done! Did I stay it is multi-plataform compatible too? This is a modern kind of software my friends.
    Hint: Have you ever switched the IE icon with Mozilla's, and the MS Word icon with the one from OO and saw what happened? ;).

  35. Re:My personal feelings by bigchris · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Except there's like, two developers working on an OS X version of OpenOffice.org

    Might be nice of Apple to contribute some developers on this one if they want some competition on their desktop.

  36. OpenOffice & Visio by Crackez · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I know visio isn't part of MS Office, but it might as well be. I have had to use it almost as much this semester as word, and visio was the only thing that prevented me from doing several large (15-50 page) papers in OOo. If they had a visio workalike, they (I'd) be set.

  37. Re:from the site by mmurphy000 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm writing a book using NeoOffice using its edition of Writer, and have written a few training presentations using its edition of Impress, and have made a bunch of spreadsheets with its edition of Calc. The latest rev is fairly stable. It's a tad pokey to launch and eats up RAM, but stability hasn't been too problematic.

  38. Poisoned by Trinition · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I feel like I've been poisoned. I used MS Word )and the other Office programs) for years. I recently dumped it in favor of OO. Mind you, I never used Word heavily, nor do I use OO heavily now.

    But I still can'y (read: not patient enough to) figure out how to do some of the things I could easily do in Word. The arrangement of the menus and toolbars just feel foreign after growing accustomed to Microsoft's.

    This isn't necessarily MIcrosoft's fault (I could just as easily have been addicted to an alternative program, just less likely due to Microsoft's dominance.) And it's not OO's faultm either. They shouldn't make their toolbars and menus look just like Microsoft's and limit their "innovation" (I hope MS hasn't trademarked that word!)

    Nonetheless, my mind is poisoned and its taking some time (instead of effort) to purge myself.

  39. OR... by The+Spoonman · · Score: 3, Interesting

    you could have a qualified admin who can do BOTH. I realize it's a difficult concept for most unix admins to grasp the concept of being proficient in more than one tool, but...there it is...

    --
    Which is more painful? Going to work or gouging your eye out with a spoon? Find out!
    http://www.workorspoon.com
    1. Re:OR... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      wow. skilled at both?
      that's got to cost a company an arm and a leg to hire someone who's got dat many skillz. ;-) but seriously, most companies can't even afford the single skilled exchange server admin. so they toss up small biz server w/exchange and then watch it wilt. that's when they call me, cause yes, I know both. and i charge a pretty penny.

      either way i see it, small/med size companies are screwed...UNLESS...they have someone who can spend the extra time learning some decent admin skills (we're talking sacrifice here, cause it's usually on top of their real job).

      the problem with that is that they will usually go microsoft and learn just enough to bring the server up...just to watch it go down a couple of months later.

      Hey! I'm not complaining. I make a good living off these poor bastards.

      The one's that switch to a freebsd/linux solution get majorly cut rates from me though, cause future maintenance will be easy, remote and quite painless.

      the exchange server on the other hand...

      to phb of small companies:
      "you want the exchange version of those neato shared calendars, contacts and posty notes? you're gonna pay dearly, one way or another"

  40. Re:Charity Pricing by MartinG · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The Microsoft charity licensing is pretty nice.

    Well it seems nice on the face of it.

    Some believe that Microsoft only offer it cheaper to charities because if they didn't then open source would ne used instead, and they would rather reduce the price just enough to stop that happening.

    --
    -- MartinG To mail me: echo kewyjlcxyzvjfxbqwh | tr bcefhjklqvwxyz .@adgimnoprstu
  41. Re:Big difference... by stephenbooth · · Score: 4, Interesting

    True, although the costs of switching are odften short term and the savings long term. Which can be a problem in pitching to senior management. You pitch "OK it's going to save us $200,000 over 5 years for an upfront cost of $10,000 over the first year and $2,000 in the second year." and they only hear the cost part. They see the short term drop in profits and it's effect on their bonus and the share price. Then they say no. In many ways it's easier to sell StarOffice than OpenOffice.org as at least Sun have a marketing department, plus automatic credibility due to being outsiders.

    Actually, on the subject of StarOffice. Due to the heavy discount (on purchase, training ("train the trainer") and support costs, remember enterprises like support and training) and free/very cheap consultancy Sun give to public sector bodies in Europe (and I assume elsewhere) it actually works out significantly cheaper to switch to StarOffice than it does OpenOffice.org for such bodies. worth bearing in mind.

    Stephen

    --
    "Don't write down to your readers, the only people less intelligent than you can't read" - Sign on Newspaper Office Wall
  42. Re:You've got to be kidding... by mmurphy000 · · Score: 2, Interesting
    - It doesn't work for advanced Excel (read: The Finance Department).
    Small businesses don't have finance departments. Small businesses, in many cases, don't have departments. And if your second bullet is true, and the firm lacks IT and needs support, they probably aren't going to be getting all that complex with their spreadsheets, regardless of which office suite they choose.
    - It takes as much as 10 seconds longer to open big docs sent in Office format (read: anything sent to you most people outside the company).
    That's a bit of a generalization, as documents coming from any source will come in a wide range of sizes. Moreover, at normal small business salaries, it would take thousands of large-document-opens for that incremental loss of time to counter the $200-minimum street price for Microsoft Office (e.g., $25/hour = 8 hours for $200 = 28,000 seconds = 2,880 large document opens).
    And, let's overlook Outlook in the comparison. (Evolution, Thunderbird, et. al. do not offer the same functionality)
    OK, let's do. Many organizations avoid Outlook due to lingering concerns over Outlook-specific viruses, or they standardized on something else (e.g., Outlook Express). Moreover, OpenOffice.org contains Draw, which handles a reasonable percentage of light Visio-style tasks, and Visio isn't included in most editions of Microsoft Office, so it's not like the two suites have identical content.
  43. Re:Big difference... by edrain · · Score: 2, Interesting

    To be fair, Office 97 to Office 2003 (or whatever) != migration in the sense that the article uses it. I think most would consider that an upgrade, not a migration. You point, though, stands in that there is certainly an upgrade cost.

  44. Sharepoint is MS's take on a Wiki... by Spoing · · Score: 4, Interesting

    (cut and paste from email)

    Microsoft SharePoint is Microsoft's take on a Wiki.

    Search google for "wikiwiki"/"wiki wiki" for details.

    Important: If you haven't delt with wikis before, I suggest taking some time to look at them. Very very interesting stuff. Very practical as an information collaboration and storage/search system.

    The differences in Microsoft's approach are basically;

    * Document-centric -- specifically MS Office document suite from Word through PowerPoint with very tight integration with the FrontPage way of page design.

    * Good for checking or logging existing documents into the system.

    * Good for people who basically want a filing cabnet for Microsoft Office documents.

    These good points cause problems that are not usually an issue with other Wikis;

    * SharePoint is not easy or practical to use if the primary tasks involve;

    + Colaboration in general.
    + Searching existing data.
    + Editing/creating links and subdocuments.
    + Auditing.

    IF you deal with folks where Microsoft lock-in is perfectly fine (as SharePoint inceases lock-in), and the negitive parts of the software are also not concerns, go for it. Otherwise, treat it like any other Wiki and decide from the list of available ones not just this one brand.

    --
    A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
  45. OOo free training video by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Has anyone considered making an OpenOffice training video and releasing it on a freely-distributable CD image? If I ever used either of these programs for more than plain text I'd consider doing it. What software would you need to capture the screen video (showing new users where commonly used things are in menus, or walking through and interactive Basics of OOo program)? Just a thought. It'd only have to be done once unless the basic functions changed in newer versions.
    And yes, I know there is Documentation and Help files, but some people just want to be spoon-fed or walked-through.

  46. The Comparison Is Not Relevant... by pandrijeczko · · Score: 2, Interesting
    The vast majority of MS Office users use it because it happens to be "free", either as a volume MS licensing deal through their place of work and/or because they have access to MSDN CDs such that they can make copies and run it illegally at home. I know of absolutely no individuals who run a legal copy of MS Office at home due to actually going into a store and buying it.

    The fact is that if those individuals were forced to pay 200 Dollars/Euros/Pounds for MS Office, I am sure all of them would seriously look at the additional features that MS Office provides over OpenOffice.org and decide then whether or not they are worth that money.

    I am not defending OOO's "inferiority" to MS Office, the fact is that it is purely a matter of perception - I personally, for example, do not embed one document within another or use VB programming - therefore OOO's feature-set is perfectly adequate for me and the only problem I have with it is importing some documents that others have created with MS Office.

    Likewise, if MS Office is the accepted benchmark for office packages currently, then I hope that OOO evolves to the point where that benchmark is challenged purely on the basus of document compatibility and useful features.

    However, everyone should remember that MS Office is a commercial package that most people run illegally. Any comparison should take cost of the respective products into account and whether it is worth buying MS Office purely because of the extra features it has over OOO.

    --
    Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
    1. Re:The Comparison Is Not Relevant... by BCW2 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Some of us have said for years thar M$ Office constantly growing list of "features" is just bloatware personified. I doubt if many people use more than a third of them. The rest are fluff, makes an impressive list, but useless.

      I have used Office at school, but at home I used Lotus Smart Suite for ten years. I learned on WP5.1 for Dos(which all word peocessors are a developed clone of) and Lotus 123 for Dos. Now I use Open Office. Never owned or pirated M$ Office, never will.

      I would pay for OO just to never see clippy again.

      --
      Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
  47. visio by sewagemaster · · Score: 3, Interesting

    the one thing that openoffice (or linux desktop) lacks is a good visio clone. sure there's kivio, and openoffice draw, but there are some basic functions that arent there. for instance, the technical 'stencils' arent really complete, especially electrical ones. and i cant even rotate the shapes that i draw. if i want have a gate in my drawing, i want to be able to rotate it.

    it'd be great if there's grammar check too...
    spell check is there though, but not grammar check

  48. Re:Needs better MS Office compatiblity by budgenator · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Even if your whole company migrates, you still have to deal with people who use Microsoft Office.
    You have to recognize that there are some cultural differences in this world. One of these differences is that Europeans are increasingly suspect of the intentions, ethics, and practices of Americans, the American Government and their corporations. Europeans, their Governments and Corporations are moving away from American/Microsoft software toward open source alternatives, mostly as a philosophical positions.

    Philippe Nemery, an IT manager at FN's parent company in Belgium, said he's used Impress for some time now and has come to prefer the way that the application is organized.


    My magic eight-ball says "Even if your whole company is a Microsoft shop, you still have to deal with EU people who use KDE on Linux with OpenOffice." and my experience has been that OO opens Microsoft documents a whole lot better than Microsoft Office opens OO documents. If you want to do business in the EU, you better be looking at OO.
    --
    Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
  49. Re:Needs better MS Office compatiblity by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Revision tracking gets entirely mucked up by OpenOffice. Usually, all the revisions dealing with font/style issues are simply deleted.

    This doesn't bother me, except that OpenOffice *also* doesn't give you a dialog box that says something like, "The Revision Tracking Data in this document is too complicated for OpenOffice to understand. Data may have been lost during conversion." or SOMEthing. If it doesn't work, OpenOffice shouldn't pretend that it does.

    This is not directly related, but OpenOffice also has a TERRIBLE TERRIBLE bug tracking system. I found a bug relating to the installer a few weeks ago, and damned if I could figure out how to report the bug at all... so I wrote this email:

    Ok, I've filed a lot of bugs for a lot of software products before, but I've never seen a bugtracker as confusing as yours in my entire life. Since this email address appears on the page, I'll just use it instead, but *please* make the bugtracker easier to use! I'm reporting this issue because it took me a few hours to find and because, at the very least, the FAQ needs to be updated so future users won't get as annoyed as I got.

    Problem:
    Upgrade install overwrites Microsoft Office filetypes without prompting

    Steps:
    Here's the steps to follow, starting with a blank install of Windows XP:

    1) Install OpenOffice 1.0.2. Allow it to associate with all supported filetypes. (Makes sense, since there is no other office product installed.)
    2) Install Microsoft Office XP. Microsoft Office XP associates with all filetypes it supports while it installs.
    3) Install OpenOffice 1.1.1.
    a) When asked whether to install fresh or upgrade OpenOffice 1.0.2, choose "upgrade"
    b) OpenOffice 1.1.1 will install itself, overwriting the Office XP filetypes in the process without ever asking the user whether he wants to associate those filetypes with OpenOffice or not.

    When I looked up this issue in the FAQ for OpenOffice 1.1.1, the FAQ said that the install was supposed to ask me if I wanted it to take-over those filetypes. Since I was doing an upgrade install, the installer never asked me that and I was extremely confused and annoyed when all of my Word files were suddenly OpenOffice files. Please fix ASAP.

    And here's a quick critique of the bugtracker:

    1) Have to create an account to register a single bug? Not only is that overkill, IMO, but creating an account consists of:
    a) Filling in name and email address.
    b) Waiting for password email to be sent. (Was not instant; took several minutes!)
    c) Clicking link on email to create a password. (I already had a browser window open sitting right on the login screen... why did I have to click the link and create a new browser window? Annoying. Just put the temporary password in the email.)
    d) Finally creating a new password.
    This is ridiculous to me. Can't you just add a password field to the initial form to create an account? Or, even better, can't you just create an account automatically in the process of submitting a bug? People aren't going to submit their bugs if they have to go through this hassle.

    2) As all good beta testers do, I tried searching the bug database before I submitted a new bug to see if it'd already been submitted. Your query screen is terribly confusing.
    a) Issue Type I understand, but that's about the only thing on this page.
    b) Component? I want to search bugs for OpenOffice. How do I do that? What component do I select? (By going to the "new bug" screen, which actually explains what the components are, I could have figured this out, but that's far too much work for a user who just wants to submit a bug report!) The component menu should only contain components the user is used to seeing: "Writer, Calc, Draw, Installer, Website" or such. What component is br-pt? Or incubator? Or l10n?
    c) Once a component is chosen, the subcomponent is slightly more understandable. But is my bug in the Code

  50. Re:Correction (to be technically accurate) by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Most inter-corporation communication that takes place as .DOC files could as easily be .RTF. The primary problem is not that Microsoft locks people in (although it certainly is an issue) but that people are dumb and/or poorly trained, like the headhunters who want a .DOC resume (and will not accept any other format) so that they can make comments in it. If you offer them plain text or a rtf, they'll say, how can I handle that?

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  51. Re:Big difference... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Bullshit. I had an unresolved problem with Word and Equation Editor (yeah, yeah... this was before I moved to LaTeX). What pieces of shit. Equation Editor could not showed equations properly. Dots in derivatives showed up as 's. Bars showed up as square root signs. Carret showed up as italic f's. What the fuck? I could move them and view them properly on a Mac if I opened Equation Editor objects one by one. 50 minute support call (and many reboots later) didn't resolve the issue. Not to mention the "Disk Full" problem when saving files despite hundreds of MB free, which I traced back to bad Equation Editor objects which had to be deleted and written from scratch. Completely useless is not overstating the case.

    Oh, you don't like my generalizing my experience to all, then don't use your anecdote to generalize it for everyone.

  52. Re:Meaning ... by StacyKr · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What I write. I'm not a high school teacher - I will be an elementary school teacher. I've used it to determine the grade level of the test questions and directions I'd written for a fifth grade language arts test. If I write an assignment of test, and I run it through Flesch-Kinkaid, and it comes through a 8.5, I need to simplify my test. Unfortunately, some of my 5th grade kids might be on a 3rd grade reading level - so having my test directions and questions at the 8th grade level would be unfair. Its not used to "dumb down" an assignment - its used to simplify and clarify - and its much more difficult to judge the readibility of a text than it seems. Run an essay or composition through it - see what you get. Cheers.

  53. Re:"Windows is only $300 if your time costs nothin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    WTF?!? "Windows just works."??? You must be using a different Windows than the 5 or so versions I've tried.

    It's true that you don't have to decipher manual pages: since the documentation is hopeless, if you can't figure it out without manuals, you're stuck. But "no configuring bullshit"?? I've spent months of my life that I'll never get back chasing down weird Windows configuration problems. Have you ever tried to hook a Windows box to a network, for example?

    Of course, all this is before the frequent crashes. None of my 5 Linux boxes have crashed in over two years. My wife's Windows 98, then 2K, then XP Pro box has crashed weekly through all of these incarnations.

    "Windows just works." IHBT.

  54. unrelated statement of leetishness by chegosaurus · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Why is the world so in love with wysiwyg word processors? They're simply awful. Slow, confusing, labyrinthine beasts which usually produce inconsistent, poorly formatted documents.

    I don't want to waste time selecting bolds and font sizes and aligning tabs and battling clippy.

    I want to type words in to a computer, using the editor I want to use and a typeface and colour scheme suited for a computer screen, then have those words come out of the printer properly formatted in a professional, readable, predictable way.

    I don't want to either spend an hour tidying a document up after I've written it, or distribute documents in the horrible, amateurish jumble of spacings, fonts, weights and sizes that most people seem happy to turn out.

    So, I use TeX, and my docs get written more quickly and look better than your OOo/Word/KWrite ones. As I only have to think about what I'm writing, not how to lay it out, the content of my document is quite possibly better as well.

    And don't give me the "it's too hard" argument. You could train someone to use a simple text editor and TeX just as quickly as you could train them to use Word for most purposes. I'm no kind of TeX guru at all, but for 95% of what I write there's a ten line preamble and a few \section tags. Then I have a copy of OOo around for the 5% of stuff TeX isn't suited to.

  55. Re:Big difference... by FatherOfONe · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Ok, let me change the question a bit. What is your company going to do when it gets a function that only office 2003 supports and your office 97 can't open it?

    --
    The more I learn about science, the more my faith in God increases.