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Amateur Rocket Reaches Space
PatMouser writes "An amateur rocket carrying a ham radio avionics package reached the edge of space May 17. Launched from Nevada's Black Rock Desert, the 21-foot Civilian Space Xploration Team (CSXT) GoFast rocket quickly attained the 100 km altitude to make Amateur Radio and amateur rocketry history. Two earlier CSXT attempts to reach space--the last almost two years ago--were unsuccessful. A jubilant Avionics Team Leader Eric Knight, KB1EHE, called the successful launch 'a phenomenal experience.' The full ARRL article can be read here. There's nothing on CSXT's site yet..." (See this pre-launch story for more details.)
Alright....next step is to add a couple extra pounds of propellant, and 3 guys. j/k
Does this mean it is in orbit, or just went into space and fell back down.
I was part of a Super-Loki rocket team in WI a few years back that went sub-orbital. (I was a camera systems specialist=ohhh, pretty pictures, look!!) It was an Amatur rocket, so does that count?
--sig fault--
Apparently one of the main people working on the craft is from Minnesota, a talk radio station was interviewing him tonight. They have located the beacon on the craft, and are at the moment trying to get to it, but the weather is bad, and it's in a desert location. It's kind of a Wright brothers moment.
The emperor is naked.
I dont get it. I mean, I understand the concept of "Amateur Radio", and "Amateur Rocketry" right, but theres got to be a point when your mad scientest project gets out of the garage and into, say, space, and all of the sudden like pair of twin torpedos slaming into the death star your Amateur project gets a slashdotting and its pro.
Hell, I can go pro by buying an $8,000 digital SLR camera, why is it that shooting a home brew satelite into space is amateur? (j/k)
Its not like some homies duct taped an 8-track to an upside down trash can and stuck some dinomite under it, right? Please, for the love of god, come up with a better classification than this!#!
Hell, even in soviet russia amateur rockets launch you.
Come on, you know you were thinking it too
Im dreaming ofa big bndwdth, That can resist the
Nah, it landed on top. It didn't rearend it.
wants to retain its amateur status so it can compete in the olympics.
I'm sure it can make its costs back in sponsorship though.
How long before someone creates the first amateur ICBM. Then moves on to become the world's first amateur nuclear power?
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It's professional when you get paid to do it.
Two Roommates and a Boyfriend, updates Monday, Wednesday, and Friday
"Eh, might someone wake me up when they actually reach space?"
It's kind of arbitrary. 100km or 60mi is the cut-off, so if they made it past that -- which they apparently did -- they "reached space."
Last time I checked, "amateur" meant that you are not getting paid for doing something.
This is not AFAIK a money-making venture. Therefore, these people are amateurs.
I really hope that when they reach the landing site they don't find any petunias or sperm whales.
How about defining it by whether people are getting paid for their participation, or are doing it as a hobby...
Amateur Athelete used to mean 'not paid'. Seems a logical definition to use here. (yes, they changed the rules for atheletes, but who ever said they were logical?)
amateur. n. "A person who engages in an art, science, study, or athletic activity as a pastime rather than as a profession."
profession. n. "An occupation or career."
(American Heritage Dictionary)
Karma: Segmentation fault (tried to dereference a null post)
Hmmm... the ham dialect of l33t Speak?
Arguably, making orbit or Earth escape trajectory is a much less arbitrary definition than simply going up to where the atmosphere is really thin. After all, "space" is a nebulous concept. We're always in space. It just so happens that this little planet has air for us to breath. Achieving orbit means that the craft is actually a craft capable of flight outside the influence of our gravity. (sort of)
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
I'm usually not one to reply to my own post but I've seen here way too many posts that basicly say "It is amateur because you are not being paid", while this rule does not explain this anomaly.
If I were to spend 10 years learning and praticing ballroom dancing would I not become a professional ballroom dancer?
Im dreaming ofa big bndwdth, That can resist the
a far cry from the DD rockets i used to get mischievous with when i was a kid...mmmmm...double deee...
|plastic....or gasoline?|
Commercial != amateur.
yo.
Classifications other than amateur:
When you can do it reliably, it becomes "private space travel".
When you do it for money, it becomes "commercial space travel".
Anyone that could launch a radio into space could launch a re-entry vehicle full of bio-engineered, which could upset the entire eco-system. Those damn terrorists would love to get in on something like that. Imagine........just one rocket full of bio-engineered corn over the corn belt could bring the entire country to it's knees as every farmer in middle america got sued for copyright infringement by the patent holders. :-)
Today's show is brought to you by the number 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0: 25
And you didn't even get first!
I get the worm and fuzzies when I hear about everyday people doing what NASA does. Mmmmmm... warm and fuzzies
What could possibly go wrong?
Only if you get paid to do it. :)
-Restil
Play with my webcams and lights here
Im sure airlines have laws on what can go into domestic aircraft space.
It kind of scares me that there is no mention of laws relating what, how, who can launch into space.
Space junk falling back onto earth has to be a concern....
No matter how many years you spent doing ballroom dancing you'd never become a professional until you got paid. And even if you were terrible at it but got paid you'd still be a professional.
But let's say you're a good dancer who isn't paid. People might say you were "very professional" in your attitude or presentation but in that case they're using an analogy - saying you're as good as a professional, not saying you're actually a professional.
I think a lot of people are confused about this word. We use the term "amateurish" to talk about things which are crappy and I really think this helps to add to the confusion. For instance I write free software which by definition is an "amateur" activity since I don't get paid for it but I'd really like to think it's not "amateurish" and crappy!
There are some other distinctions used these days too. I play in a band which you'd definitely describe as "amateur". But maybe someday we'll get booked at a venue and become "semi-pro", meaning we get paid to play - but not enough to give up our day jobs. Not quite "professional" but not "amateur" either.
The difference is simple, and you see examples of it everywhere: The basic variation of anything is "amateur".
Now if you take that, add a couple of small features targeted at business users, and then jack up the price by 70%, it becomes "professional".
Rocket Carrying Ham Radio Payload Reaches Space!
NEWINGTON, CT, May 17, 2004--An amateur rocket carrying a ham radio avionics package reached the edge of space May 17. Launched from Nevada's Black Rock Desert, the 21-foot Civilian Space Xploration Team (CSXT) GoFast rocket quickly attained the 100 km altitude to make Amateur Radio and amateur rocketry history. Two earlier CSXT attempts to reach space--the last almost two years ago--were unsuccessful. A jubilant Avionics Team Leader Eric Knight, KB1EHE, called the successful launch "a phenomenal experience."
"It just roared off the pad and flew into space," said Knight, who lives in Unionville, Connecticut. "Everything went like clockwork this morning, and it was an awesome experience. We're all kind of on an adrenaline high right now."
The GoFast vehicle--named for one of the project's commercial sponsors--lifted off from the desert floor at approximately 11:20 AM PDT. The CSXT team, plus observers from the Federal Aviation Administration, were up and at the launch site several hours beforehand, however, and Knight said the rocket crew--which includes several radio amateurs--did a "dress rehearsal" prior to the actual countdown and launch.
Knight said several West Coast hams who learned about the rocket launch from ARRL news accounts showed up to assist in locating the vehicle, which was estimated to have returned to Earth some 26 to 30 miles downrange from the launch site. Knight said Monday evening that the rocket had not yet been recovered, but the ham radio telemetry package was continuing to transmit.
"We have a telemetry beacon telling us where it is--that it's alive and waiting to be found," Knight said. The rocket transmitted telemetry on the 33-cm amateur band and color Amateur TV pictures on 2.4 GHz. An HF special event station, K7R (for "rocket") didn't get much airtime, Knight said, "because we've been really focused on the mission."
"Everything came together very well," Knight said. His avionics crew includes eight Amateur Radio licensees, most of whom also were involved in the 2002 launch attempt. Former Hollywood stunt man--Ky Michaelson of Minnesota, directs the 18-person CSXT team.
!bersl2.RTFA
Though it has been argued (unsuccessfully) that a sponsorship is not necessarily a waiver of amateur status (a bit of a stretch, stretched further by my application of it to this situation). So YMMV: Jeremy Bloom v. NCAA (Warning: DOC file...).
And interestingly, as I preview, the banner ad is for Nike.
Thats not even close to being correct. While in orbit, the craft is completely under the influence of our gravity. Its just that its centrifugal force is equal to gravity and hence keeping it in orbit.
In Soviet Russia the insensitive clod is YOU!
We use the term "amateurish" to talk about things which are crappy
Well, if your refering to porn I agree with you there.
NASA doesn't get paid... they get funded. (you could argue that someone funded this launch too...)
"If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy
more importantly it also means you probably have some sort of guidance system (other than fins). It's pretty easy to go straight up - but to get into orbit you basicly have to go straight up (to get out of the atmosphere as fast as possible) and then turn 90 degrees sideways and go fast enough that you fall back at the same rate the earth is falling away from you. That's hard - without air fins don't work - you need some sort of reaction control or thrust vectoring as well as some inertial system so you know where you are and where you are going
are the sponserers amatuers too ;)
In theory, could a private individual put a satelite in orbit?
Am I free to build, launch and use my own space gadgets?
What does international law say about this?
Would you care to tell us if you are someone that this happened to, or just someone that wanted it to happen?
hey!
did anybody "claimed", they definitely saw an UFO,
in that area?
Amateur doesn't mean you don't get paid to do it. It means you can't survive JUST doing it.
1. Amateur radio may be sponcered but they guy/girl still has a day job.
2. Amateur ballroom dancing may get paid to dance but can't survive just painting.
3. Amateur painters can sell their work but if it doesn't bring in enough to live it's still just a hobbie.
As you can see Amateur doesn't mean you don't get paid it just means you don't get paid ENOUGH to just do X without having another job.
So answering the question when does it stop being amateur? When it pays enough money so they don't have to do anything else.
Err dude, if your parents had encouraged you to read as a child then perhaps you would have understood the reference.
As it is, you look like an idiot.
You should take the introductory course Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy Allusions 101.
I had but a simple dream, to destroy all humans.
Oops, needed French help...
Obviously you have no shortcomings at all
Achieving orbit means that the craft is actually a craft capable of flight outside the influence of our gravity.
No it just means the craft has enough angular velocity tangental to the earth that it essentially outruns the earth's ballistic gravitational pull. Gravity still definiately has an effect though as it pulls the craft around the earth.
While achieving orbital velocity is an order of magnitude more difficult than reaching space and coming back down ballistically, reaching escape velocity to break orbit is even harder. Hence the massive 'moon rocket' Saturn V's that propelled the moon craft to over 24,000 mph (orbital velocity is closer to 17,000). The moon craft actually re-entered earth's atmosphere at over 30,000 mph!
-
Achieving orbit means that the craft is actually a craft capable of flight outside the influence of our gravity. (sort of)Achieving orbit means that your vehichle is going so fast horizontally that the horizon is always falling out from under it. It is in constant free fall. If there was no atmosphere to induce atmosphereic friction, you could put yourself in orbit at 1 kilometer given enough speed (watch out for mountains!)
Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
Bruce Simpson
and then turn 90 degrees sideways and go fast enough that you fall back at the same rate the earth is falling away from you.
And have a magical engine (and inertial dampening system) that can accelerate to orbital speed fast enough and without tearing the ship apart. Actually orbital craft angle backwards as they accelerate through the atmosphere instead of going straight up.
-
Didn't you know the Brits are more concerned with wearing funny cloths are calling it sophistication rather than actually doing something worth while?
Thats not even close to being correct. Centrifugal force is a myth. Nothing is pushing the orbiting body outwards. If gravity was to suddenly be turned off, the orbiting body would depart tangentially, not radially as you imply with your "centrifugal" force. A body in orbit is essentially falling continuously to Earth, its horizontal velocity component means that it just keeps missing.
2. Amateur ballroom dancing may get paid to dance but can't survive just painting.
I totally agree.
Then what about Big Ben?
Too many zeros, not enough ones
yes but not a lot - drag is, well, a real drag - proportional to something evil like the cube of your velocity (I forget exactly) - best trick is to go straight up a slowly as possible 'till you're past the worst of the air then once it starts to get thin kick the accelerator and start the arc over into orbit (yes no one pulls exact snappy 90 degree turns, I was just trying to draw a mental image of the problem you have to solve)
but i thought everyone liked "amature" sites?
Ballroom dancing, what a bizzare analogy to use on slashdot.
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
That would not guarantee the poster to know about it anyway. I started to read several years before starting school, and I still read a lot and I don't get the reference.
And then the FAA stepped in and had all the involved parties arrested for questioning and further investigation.
Actually, according to The Professional Photographers Association of America the rule is that you've made more than 50% of your annual gross income in one tax year from the activity in question.
I believe that is a pretty common definition, but it's been a long time since I worked for a member of PPA too. :)
Such as consuming 3 times more of the world?s natural resources than we produce?
That's not even close to being correct. Gravitational force is a myth. Nothing is pulling the orbiting body invards. A body in orbit is essentially following the shortest path in space-time curvature.
kilomiles per hour???
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Orbital craft are launched straight up because it is inefficient to try to accelerate tangential to the Earth's surface at low altitudes, due to the air density. They fly more or less straight up to about 30km before really pitching over to start the tangential acceleration into a periodic orbit (as opposed to a once-through orbit like the one you enter when you jump off the ground). Low earth orbit basically begins around 130km, where the atmosphere has thinned out enough that you can remain in orbit. I think the ISS is in the 230km-300km range.
I'm going to plug a great simulator for you all, and that is Orbiter. You'll learn a ton about astrophysics just by starting the program up and trying to get into orbit your first time, and it won't quit from there.
In case you are wondering, as I was, how you get the acronym "ARRL" out of "National Association for Amateur Radio" but don't want to search the site... one of their pages explains that it stands for American Radio Relay League, founded in 1914.
Let me get this straight.. Its an amateur rocket with commercial sponsers?
This is the funny retort.
Centrifugal force is highly real, as you will no doubt feel if you place yourself on a merry-go-round. It's just a matter of having an accelerated frame of reference. If you and your friend were orbiting the earth, and gravity were turned off for him, the centrifugal force would indeed make him depart radially from you, though the Coriolis force would eventually bend his path.
There's a good explanation at http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/corf.ht ml
This signature is not in the public domain.
For instance I write free software which by definition is an "amateur" activity since I don't get paid for it but I'd really like to think it's not "amateurish" and crappy!
... I never used your software ... :)
Actually, I use your software and it's really amateurish and crappy.
jk
" I still read a lot and I don't get the reference."
No offense, but this makes you "culturally illiterate".
The Super Loki is not an amature rocket. It may have had an amature payload, but was a NASA sounding rocket brought to Sheboygan by the Florida Spaceport Authority.
Ok I'm just out of bed but I read, "An amateur rocket carrying a ham..." And immediately thought of the Muppets' 'Piiigs Iiiiiin Spaaaaaaaaaaace!' (sorry)
So, then... if one were intending to launch a satellite from a ship, would that massively effect the engineering and launch procedures compared to a land-base launch?
It sure sounds more difficult.
I always thought most americans since the Challenger mishap judged NASA to be a bunch of amateurs. BJ
If they can put a ham radio into space, maybe someone will build an amateur Mars probe. We definely need someone to investigate this new face on Mars.
Is Opportunty watching Late Night when NASA isn't watching?
By the taping of my glasses, something geeky this way passes
Sorry, I can only see one, whats the other ?
Is this where job growth is heading? Private space charter and cargo organizations?
Are there niches here for smart, innovative, hardworking software guys to learn to fill, without having to start over in college?
It seems software is going the way of the dodo, until the U.S. decides to adapt itself to a global economy. Can the space race get the job market moving again in a way that biotech can't (meaning, not requiring another 6-8 years of college for entry-level positions.)
Just an out of work hopeful...
Alright, try this one on for size. I'm currently involved in two separate and distinct business pursuits. Both make money, but neither alone pays the bills. In fact, both together don't pay the bills, but let's assume that sometime in the next month or so that status changes and both together pay the bills, but neither alone will pay the bills.
Oh yeah, one's in the food business and the other is my website (and a few related materials on the website). They're not at all related to one another. (I'm also pursuing freelance writing, in case anyone's interested in hiring a writer for some reason)
Am I an amateur in both areas? I.e. amateur barbecue man and amateur web publisher? Or am I a--wait for it--professional amateur?
Like what I said? You might like my music
So Linux is an amateur os? Except those who make the distribution CD's, like Red Hat ? Debian will forever be an amateur distribution ?
> No matter how many years you spent doing ballroom dancing you'd never become a
> professional until you got paid. And even if you were terrible at it but got paid you'd still
> be a professional.
That is not entirely true. As a dancer you can simply declare yourself "pro" and start entering competitions for professionals.
On the other hand in many countries amateurs teach and do demonstrations and get paid for all of these, though usually there are some limits. The distinction between amateur and pro is pretty arbitrary really... In the case of space rockets i think amateur has come to mean "not financed by the government or a business with intent of making a profit", or something similar.
> We use the term "amateurish" to talk about things which are crappy and I really think this
> helps to add to the confusion.
In the sometimes rather bizarre dancing world "amateurish" can actually mean the opposite. In this case it is a distinction to the social dancer. In this case "looking like an amateur" means to look like a serious competitive dancer...
Anyway, i never thought i'd see a ballroom dancing reference on slashdot!
That's not even close to being correct. The space-time curvature is a myth. A body in orbit is purely imaginary because the earth is flat, the heavens are anchored in one place and do *not* move. The earth spins like a fan blade, because it is attached to a huge fan, the center of which is the Sun.
Like what I said? You might like my music
That's not even close to being correct. The Greek heathen Eratosthenes has shown via ingenious deduction that the Earth is a sphere with a circumference of 250,000 stades.
That explanation is quite simple: they're all using the word wrong in that industry.
It is amateur until you are being paid to do it.
Doug
A guy who was clinging to the side of the rocket when it was launched has been awarded the X-Prize postumously.
(Spudley Strikes Again!)
Linux itself is neither amateur nor professional - it's software, not a person. Asking whether it's professional is asking whether the software itself gets paid to do its job of running your computer - obviously a nonsensical question.
If you're speaking of the Linux core developers, many (if not most) of them are indeed professional programmers. That is, they write programs for a living; the fact that they chose to forgo payment for a particular bit of code doesn't change their professional status.
Lost: Sig, white with black letters. No collar. Reward if found!
This seems like a big, big event. WHY wasn't it picked up by, oh, the New York Times? The Los Angeles Times? The Times of London? The Washington Post?
It seems that those presently in power (as a broad class of self-interested individuals, not some shadowy "conspiracy") have a vested interest in keeping the public convinced that only large corporate entities and governments can get any real work done. Perhaps that is why they don't want to broadcast the news that a group of amateur geeks launched a freaking rocket into space? It might start people thinking...
Honey, I shrunk the Cygwin
So the linux kernel is an amateur project?
[alk]
What really happened: The parachute opened early and it was caught by a gust of wind, the rocket ended up in a pine tree down the block and they had to throw sticks and a frisbee at it to get it back. A fin was damaged by the frisbee but can be repaired with some elmers glue. A frog has been captured to be the payload for the next flight.
It's simpler than that. You are a professional when the activity in question is your profession.
Patrick Doyle
I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
Every time theres an amateur radio story posted to /., either about morse code or BPL, all these haters show up and start saying ham radio is dead and that its a waste to give all these airwaves to these "hams".
:P
Where are the haters in this thread? Oh OHHH its because we launched a ROCKET INTO SPACE. Has your hobby done that? HMM!? What about dozens of satellites, space station experiments and space shuttle experiments? What about being a vital part of our nation's emergency communications network?
I didn't think so. To all the rest, thank you for the resepect. I'm not trying to say ham radio is the best hobby, I'm just saying the haters need to recognize.
...unfortunately no one can be told what The Mat^H^H^HGoatse is...they must experience it for themselves...
If they paint houses for a living, they probably can.
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
I did not think I would live to be old enough to see this. Someone young enough to use the word "hater" defending ham radio? This is just two steps away from the supreme court issuing a ruling containing "w00t, d00d."
In the meantime, I suspect we will soon be seeing X-TREME denture ads, and all da playas in da hizouse will be talking about how their retirement investment portfolios are off da heazy fo' sheazy.
Whats wrong with ballroom dancing?
Anyway, I think you hit the nail on the head, I should have made it more clear when I said that a ballroom dancer of 10 years can become pro just by going to pro competitions.
I'm the only ballroom dancing network admin on slashdot thanks to my mom (pro ballroom dance instructor)
Threads like this make me smile in the mornings.
I have found there are just two ways to go.
It all comes down to livin' fast or dyin' slow. -REK, Jr.
Sure, but you don't need to take down a space ship to stop their launch. It's quite enough to attack the people who sent it up, assuming they're still planetside.
That has a lot of problems if the launcher is the mightiest military machine of all history, as in NASA's case, but much less if it's a bunch of private individuals.
As for the altitude, I think there is an internationally agreed altitude where it is OK to travel.
Note that this is a hypothetical question and does not apply to me, so don't bother asking for a loan. ;-)
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
> Threads like this make me smile in the mornings.
But in the afternoon, I just shake my head -- the morning coffee effect is long gone.
Why don't you ask IBM?
* And remember, it's spelled N-e-t-s-c-a-p-e, but it's pronounced "Mozilla."
> So the linux kernel is an amateur project?
The kernel itself, yes, of course it is. Amateur project != bad quality, however, so many professionals use the "Amateur kernel" in professional projects, due to its high quality.
We've already had tons of satellites up there.
> Whats wrong with ballroom dancing?
;)
Absolutely nothing, i love it!
Actually, thinking about it, our club is full of scientists, particularly physicists, and they also appear to be amoung the more successful competitors, and I can think of a few people going into IT as well...
I guess i just didn't think anyone would admit to it on Slashdot
Professional - Whore
Ameteur - Slut
Me - Sick
Meet another ballroom dancer network admin. I've been involved in the style of dancing for the past two and a half years. This is actually rather amusing; It makes you wonder how many other activities slashdotters are involved in that they just don't want to admit to.
This is rather disturbing actually. An ancient Greek, thousands of years ago, figured out that the earth is a sphere. But somehow, Christianity took over, and according to its holy book, the earth is flat. Sure, most Christians won't publicly admit to believing this (though they will admit to believing in Creationism), but it's printed quite clearly in the book they claim is written by god.
Totally agree.
[alk]
With 800,000 hits a day anything is possible. its good to know I'm not alone. The sport is really amazing and anyone who thinks otherwise obviously hasnt tried it. Do you have a USABDA chapter in your area? (Hehe, United States Amateur Ballroom Dance Association) I've added you as a friend, probably not likely to find other ballroom dancers on slash but maybe in the distant future there will be a dance icon on /. heh
Love it too, do you have a USABDA chapter in your area? I'm not afraid to admit it, I cherish the fact that my mother could bestow this skill upon me before she left this world.
Tag lost or not installed.
> While achieving orbital velocity is an order of magnitude more difficult than reaching space and coming back down ballistically, reaching escape velocity to break orbit is even harder.
Actually once you are at orbital velocity it takes only a small nudge to begin spiraling farther and farther out from the center of the earth's gravity well. You would probably crash into the moon unless additional propulsion was used, but waiting many years for that to happen wasn't an option for NASA scientists who chose to propel their craft much faster than the minimum escape velocity (ie 17,000 mph).
It's a great timesink, too...Even at 10,000x acceleration it take a hell of a long time to fly to Jupiter. :)
> do you have a USABDA chapter in your area
I currently live in the UK...
Now we most definitely are waiting for someone to invent a warp drive. To infinity...and beyond!
Goddamned kids! Get off my lawn!
Wrong again. There is no bending of Space-time and there is no such thing as gravitational force.
The Earth simply sucks.
An Amateur is someone who does it for "the love of" the activity or from a deep passion. A Professional is someone who just does it for the paycheck.
I have a dear friend who is in "fulltime ministry" with college students. He draws a paycheck every month, but he says, "I never want to become a professional!" He says, that it is from the pleasure he gets, the passion he has from working with students, that he gets the energy to get out of bed every morning.
Of course, in our society, we have been conditioned to think that being a professional is better. I would rather see amateurs doing things.
I would like to see amateur politicians, doctors, etc. People who love to do what they are doing.
Yours,
Jordan
For safety purposes, Cape Canaveral defines reaches orbit as when the perigee is greater than 70 miles. At that point, you're pretty sure it's not coming right back down if the engines fail. It is a highly arbitrary number, but with some reasoning behind it.
Our founding fathers removed the guys in charge. Be American. Vote incumbents out.