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Sailing the Wine Dark Sea
According to Cahill, the Greeks' invention of the alphabet (or refinement of the Phoenician alphabet) into a potent intellectual tool was the beginning and the heart of their cultural expansion. Perhaps, in our own time, the arrival of computer technology and the web carries a similar promise, if only we can tease as much innovation from the web as the Greeks did from the alphabet.
But it is hard to consign the Greeks' invention of democracy (a Greek word meaning "rule of the people") to second place, even to so fine a contender as the alphabet itself. For the Greek city-state of Athens truly did refine direct democracy and their achievement can be seen as the bedrock and foundation of Western Europe's later development of democracy, and especially of the American experiment in indirect and representational democracy.
Yet of equally revolutionary significance is the Greek invention of total warfare, with highly organized militaries made up of hoplite soldiers and shrewd, calculating generals. This Greek way of warfare has been the foundation of the Western way of war ever since, right down to and including our current American military dominance of the planet. Cahill cites extensively from the brilliant and influential military historian Victor Davis Hanson and his book "The Autumn of War" to the effect that the western way of total warfare has dominated the planet ever since; and it appears that Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Chaney are well versed in Mr. Hanson's theories, not to mention Greek hubris.
The lessons for the USA in its war on terrorism alone are compelling, if not down right chilling. Central to the cultural echoes provided is a speech from Pericles, ruler of Athens at the beginning of the Peloponnesian War, a mighty struggle that lasted for 30 years, beginning with Athens at the height of its imperial, cultural and financial powers, and ending with Athens defeated and subjected to domination by Sparta and her allies, never again to regain the zenith of her glory and might.
At an annual ceremony honoring and burying the bones of her young war dead after the first year of the 30 years war, Pericles orated about the Greek forefathers, and he sounds a lot like a contemporary American politician:
"...generation after generation in unchanging and unbroken succession, they have, by their hard work and courage, handed down to us a free country... "
This comes from what is by far the longest of the many quotes Cahill intersperses in his book, and it sounds ever so much like George W. Bush. I admire the way the author intersperses these quotes without ever boring the reader. The quotes from such luminaries as Homer, Socrates, Plato and others are absolutely integral to the book and greatly enhance its character. If Pericles' speech above reminds us of Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, so it must also remind us somewhat of our current President's oratory about the War on Terror.
The book is organized around chapters that bring together material in an organic way, not an academic way; with titles like: "The Warrior: How to Fight", "The Wanderer: How to Feel", "The Poet: How to Party", "The Politician and the Playwright: How to Rule", "The Philosopher: How to Think", "The Artist: How to See", and "The Way They Went: Greco-Roman World meets Judeo-Christian".
All in all, this is a quick read, a delightful and thought provoking exercise, and a worthwhile adventure. I highly recommend it. Be forewarned though, you may find yourself wanting to go on and read the other volumes in the series, including "How the Irish Saved Civilization", "The Gifts of the Jews", "The Desire of the Everlasting Hills" (about early Christianity), and the three forthcoming volumes, the next of which is promised to be about how the Romans became Italians. By the time all three future volumes are published, this promises to be a very accessible investigation into the making of the modern world and the impact of its cultural innovations on the sensibilities of the West.
I suspect that Slashdotters of all persuasions will enjoy reading this book; you can read more on related topics on my weblog and web site at http://www.awaretek.com/weblog/
You can purchase Sailing the Wine Dark Sea: Why the Greeks Mattered from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, carefully read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.
How the Irish Saved Civilization
Well, duh. Guinness.
I mean, what's the point of living in a "Civilization" (If you can call it that) without Guinness?
Objects in the blog are closer then they ap
Did anybody else think feta and/or goats and recoil?
I was thinking Baileys Irish Cream (never drink coffee without it), but I guess Guinness will work too ;-)
Just like driving a car:
(D) to go forward
(R) to go backward
"Hubris" is the word, though, you'd so right about that.
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
I thought Patrick O'Brian had finally gotten his due slashdotting.
link
Maybe that's the secret ending:
"And that, you see, is where SCO comes from."
<insert witty linux comment here>
Cue the Paul McCartney...
>But cogitate you will, as Cahill gives enough food for thought as post modern man is likely to be able to bear." Read on for the rest of Ursus Maximus' review.
I understand that man might not be able to "bear" very much, but what of the Ursine among us? Won't somebody think of the bears?!!
In post-9/11 America, the CIA interrogates YOU!
As an aside, the greeks were the first to articulate and intellectualize homosexuality, as they argued that true love was between two men, a love which is not bound by hormonal urges. You can see the societal adoption of this very same philosophy with gay marriages being approved, and the subsequent tightening of church control over the current "democratic" administration.
Feed the need: Digitaladdiction.net
Let me guess...it has something to do with Moors
ahh, I thought it was DIPSHIT
http://www.giant.net.au/users/rupert/kythera/kyt hera3.htm
A bunch of Tech Stuff
someone once said that the classic Greeks were all about wars and homos... strangely enough, as with most of this kind of wisdom, is quite accurate... now seriously, donna tartt's quasi-quotations aside, i will have still to find passages of such violence and intensity as those found in the Illiad, the descripcions of the dry sun dried plain in front of the city, the way the deaths are described... IMNSHO, I believe their main contribution to our culture is their literature. Western Literature starts with the Illiad and the Oddyssey, and its influence is still felt by us when reading TS Eliot, Cervantes, Pynchon, Goethe, Chaucer... Okay.. well, I will cut it short, cause if I start talking about Lucian of Samotrace, the Alexandrian poets, etc.. etc...
... y Dios vio que Linux era bueno... Genesis 99.666
Spare me the lunatic-left cheerleading for Saddam Hussein and the terrorists. Next thing, you will be calling a 14-month-old military conflict a "quagmire".
That off my chest, I will make one observation that was made to me by a serious classicist, someone who has written and commented extensively on Aristophanes: It is almost impossible for a modern person to understand the Greek world-view. We would have to turn off so many things that we know, so many received ideas that are part of our culture, that the effort would be impossible. Forget not only cars, planes and televisions, forget the Americas, the Southern Hemisphere, biology,chemistry, the size of the universe, astronomy, physics, most of mathematics, and almost all of history. Forget, in fact, the existence of other cultures. Then try and imagine what it would be like to be a philosopher.
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
As an example he spend 3 chapters talking about St. Augustin of Hippo juxtaposed to St. Patrick. What came out of it could be summarized in a few paragraphs.
St. Patrick became the first missionary following St. Paul and had little formal education.
Well educated St. Augustin stayed at home in Hippo and conjured up the City of God based on Allaric's sacking of Rome in 410.
Help fight continental drift.
Does this have anything even remotely to do with News for Nerds or technology or computers or programing or software or hardware or anthing electonic whatsoever?
There's nothing that matters for nerds in this book or its review.
We cant handle the TRUTH!
Even when it's about ancient Greeks.
Proof? In the movie Troy, starring Brad Pitt as Achilles, we have Patroclus, who, in the original Illiad, is Achilles' lover... in the movie, he's Achilles' cousin.
No, it's MOORS !
Because it's Friday, we've been living in Dilbert's cube world for way too long and we need a dream. /. we dream of boats instead of other things ...
Being
In Alabama, what's the difference?
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Yeah, right. It may be worth mentioning that the Greek version of democracy differs somewhat from ours. In Athens, only free men were allowed to vote. Women and slaves were not. Hence, democracy in the Greek sense is more of an oligocracy. However, their system of adult full citizens voting on decisions did pave the way for the Western type of democracy that came out of the French revolution. One may wonder to what extent our modern democracies really are democracies. Oh, and part of the homosexual thing was due to the fact that most women (except for prostitutes, or haetares as they were known) were not considered fit and proper intellectual partners for a nice night out for a man. I'm not sure where the other part came from but it was first and foremost an "intellectual" thing.
----- One learns to itch where one can scratch.
[quote from Pericles]
it sounds ever so much like George W. Bush.
I'm not sure you can include Pericles and GWB in the same thought. Pericles was an orator and, well...
you get the picture.
The last time oil prices fell after being relatively high, GW Bush had just entered the oil business. Perhaps it's time to send him back to the oil fields.
Of course the Greeks changed the world. I couldn't imagine life without the fine art of erotic pottery.
"We shall party like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean." - HedonismBot
You are a little paranoid, aren't you? "Floorboards: Corporate america under your bed. Clothing: Corporate america in your closet"
Cahill's books are basically like the really bad "For Dummies" books - full of inaccuracies, oversimplifications, and downright stupidities. If you want a valuable book on this subject, I'd suggest Oliver Taplin's *Greek Fire*.
For what it's worth, I remember some years ago attending a paper conference for undergraduate papers in history. One person gave a paper on this author, specifically How the Irish Saved Civilization. The gist of the paper, and the discussion afterwards (which included professors), was that this author is more about selling books than writing good history.
The criticism went as follows. Pick an affluent ethnic group in a major book market, and pander to them, writing about how great they are. For example, think of all the Irish in the area of Boston and New York (major book markets), pick up your pen, and start writing. After that success, try the Jews.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
I actually haven't read any of his books (and for the record, I've nothing against either the Irish or the Jews!), I just remembered this criticism of the author and wanted to know from those who feel themselves capable of commenting whether this criticism holds water or not.
Any comments?
quiquid id est, timeo puellas et oscula dantes.
The larger the group, the better. "How the Arabs Saved Civilization" would be an easy one to write due to the advances of the middle-ages Islamic empire, but the sales would be low due to the small size of the Arab-American group compared to the groups named above.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
This book tells a story through the narrative of Homer and many other fine greek writers/orators. I recommend it to anyone seeking to brush up on the Classics. Included in the hardback, as with all his books, is a set of rather interesting photographs which document the subject.
Gifts of the Jews is quite good, too. You folks ought to give that a read, along with a great book titled The Source.
I'm not popular enough to be different.
Homer Simpson, The Simpsons
"Feta is a classic and famous Greek curd cheese whose tradition dates back thousands of years and is still made by shepherds in the Greek mountains with unpasteurized milk. It was originally made with goat's or sheep's milk, but today much is often made commercially with pasteurized cow's milk"
From "homecooking.about.com"
"Feta cheese is classified as a soft cheese made of 45 to 60 percent fat whole sheep's or goat's milk"
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Silly me, I was happy and surprised to see a review of a -history- book in my favorite technical forum, only to find out that it's a thinly veiled screed. ... -Rebuilding- being the operative word. Not "salting the field of" not stealing their women and killing all their children. I'm all for political commentary and would have enjoyed seeing a review of a history book on slashdot but lets not masquerade political comentary as literary review.
"Dick Chaney" indeed. Ursy compares the Peloponnesian War and Greek "total war" (whatever they think that means) to "our current American military dominance of the planet". Tell that to the Greek subjects of that famous war. Think there was a lot of public concern about prisoner treatment in ancient Greek "total warfare"? Remember, one of the complaints now is the money that corporations are making on rebuilding Iraq.
When you look at the famous philosophers and mathematicians, you can see that there is a good case to be made that the Greeks invented nerds.. You have a point, though. This is hardly news (being thousands of years old).... except to you.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
a well rounded glimpse into the way the ancient Greeks lived, saw the world, and in fact into the whole of Greek experience.
...
If you, like me, enjoy this kind of thing, see also
Plutarch: biographies of Theseus, Pericles, Alexander, etc. Very warm, personable studies.
Herodotus: "Inquiries". (Usually titled, incorrectly, "The Persian War".) Great fun to read -- lots of cool stories mixed with tall tales.
Mary Renault: "The Mask of Apollo" and other novels. Renault is one of the best historical novelists ever. Both entertaining and informative.
-kgj
-kgj
link
In Alabama he is still in the closet.
Hmmm, sounds like Buckley's Mixture cough syrup. It tastes awful (of pine needles, one of the ingredients) but it works!
$#!^ happens, but why does it always have to happen to me???
The ancient Greeks, like everyone else, "stand on the shoulders of giants". But their own achievements obscure their own predecessors. Read some research like Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings, for evidence of global navigational skills of even more ancient peoples. If you don't think our Eurocentric history obscures the navigational achievements of prior civilizations, check out some of the Chinese global exploration prior to Columbus. Or documentation of African navigation among the Americas. Then there's the Pacific diaspora, which covered an entire hemisphere of Earth without "landmarks", at sea. Beware of Greeks bearing gifts: just where did they get them?
--
make install -not war
The war between Athens and Sparta ( and their client states ) might have had parallels in the Cold War. In which case it's the Soviet Union that had the fate of Athens.
The battle between Athens and Sparta was primarily ideological, NOT simply who wins and who loses like a video game.
The real conflict was World War II, which precisely mirrored the conflict between Athens and Sparta. Communists and Capitalist both believe on the surface that all men are equal, and that the state exists to maximize the material benefit of the people, as well as some form of representative government. This is essentially what Athens strived for, and even justified slavery on the terms that slaves sealed their fate by surrendering in battle or whatever.
Germany, like Sparta, believed none of those things. The opposite of egalitarianism is that people are NOT equal, and thus have different places in society. It is the hierarchical state.
I could go on and on, but its friday. The analysis of WWII along these lines provides IMMENSE insight into a recurrent theme since antiquity. The Athens versus Sparta battle is going on even today, and the moment we believe it no longer applies things will rapidly fall apart just as it did in Athens when they believed their petty democracy was supreme.
In this particular case... Wine is not an emulator.
It's really "Sailing the WINE Dork C. That's why the geeks mattered.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
...are the parallels, even in societies that in many ways can look very alien. (Sparta under the Lycurgan regime abolished the family as a social unit, for example.) Certainly the parallels with today's "War on Terror" hysteria are striking:
(From Thucydides' History of the Peloponnesian War III 82, written in the 5th century BC. Sound familiar?)
Back just before the first Gulf War - Desert Storm, not Iran/Iraq - the BBC did a special called (IIRC) The War that Never Ends, a set of dramatized talking-heads excepts from the period, drawing these parallels very simply but incredibly effectively. One of the best things I've ever seen on TV, and probably something that only the BBC could ever do.
I wouldn't agree with the viewer in calling Greek warfare "total", however. Yes, they were the first to use shock, but that's another matter. Military participation was generally limited to the wealthier citizens (== voters.... hello, Heinlein), and war aims were generally limited, stopping far short of conquest or delenda-est-Carthago extremes. In many ways, Greek armies were like local sporting teams; war was a test/demonstration of courage and civic-mindedness. When professional combat trainers appeared in Greece, many folk at the time commented that yes, these techniques would make you invulnerable in battle, but what was the point? It wasn't what the activity was about. Rather like Greek theatre, I suppose - the Chorus was the focus of a play, not the individual actors.
</ramble>So it is not the Jewish Controlled Media that makes the US administration oppose exterminating Jews? It is really the Christian Right? Any whacky conspiracy theory will do.
If you want a slimmer and less all-encompassing read on the prominence of Greek seafaring, I heartily commend to you The Extraordinary Voyage of Pytheas the Greek by scholar Barry Cunliffe. If you're not from Marseille or a classics student, you might never of heard of Pytheas, an inhabitant of that same city (at that time a greek colony called Massalia) who not only ventured to the Ocean beyond the Pillars of Hercules, but charted the French Atlantic coast, the British isles, and explored as far north as Iceland and the Arctic Circle and as far east - maybe - as Denmark.
Unfortunately, his book, On the Ocean, burned at Alexandria and survives only in quoted fragments, so we have to guess from these fragments - which blessedly include his longitudinal readings - the specifics of his journey. Using a thorough knowledge of Greek seafaring and Mediterranean naval culture, as well as a good handle on archaeology, Cunliffe takes you along Pytheas's hypothetical route, introducing you to the ancient peoples of France, the British Isles, Norway, and Denmark (no one in Iceland yet, sorry).
It's a pretty compelling story, one that's not usually told, and Cunliffe makes it eminently readable and enjoyable. And if you're like me, it'll make you want to go read the "On the Ocean" fragments in the original Greek, in the hopes of gleaning another hidden secret of this amazing exploration.
Karma: T-rexcellent.
No, he's governing in the public interest, not the oil interest. If he was still an oilman, he would have made a sweetheart deal with Saddam which would have ensured much higher oil profits than any post-Saddam government will ever allow.
Because America was just chugging right along before the Bush administration took over, save for the occasional TERROR ATTACK ON NEW YORK CITY.
Worth considering too that the status of women in Athens was akin to that of Arab socieities today, while Sparta gave them something nearer equality.
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
They hate to leave their buddy's behind....
You've got that wrong, it's "You gotta love someone you can sodomize."
Because America was better off before the boy who would be president decided to kill a bunch of a-rabs and get our kids killed.
To be a geek is essentially having most of your fun with your mind, as opposed to jocks having most fun with their bodies via sport. It's a sad, small mind that limits itself to video games, sci-fi, and anything with a microchip. Try pushing yourself away from that keyboard for a minute, and pick up a book. Not an ebook, not an online book, but an honest to God paper-paged book. Get away from computers for five minutes and start enriching yourself with some literature, history, philosophy, science, and mathematics.
I'd LIKE to see more stories like this. I love Slashdot, but nothing but video games/computers/sci-fi is thin gruel at times, and I have to go to other sites to satisfy my need for non-techie subjects.
Besides, walking away from the computer and relaxing with a book recharges me. Give it a try sometime.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
Ursus Maximus is an odd name to have unless you are really into ancient greek and roman culture. I wouldn't be suprised if this "review" was written by the author himself. Happens on Amazon all the time.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
Heavy handed, poorly argued, ill-informed, amateur. It was the cheap authority of cocktail party talk run amok.
I've forgotten much, but one thing that stuck out in my head was his argument against the notion that Homer wrote down an oral poem rather than penning the epics himself. Cahill basically quotes segments of the poem, declares them too complex for mere oral traditions, and says anyone who doesn't agree with him has "a tin ear".
His other arguments followed the same general line:
I wanted to like the book when I picked it up, but quickly formed the impression that Cahill is a boorish simpleton, straining himself in self-congratulation for his dubious insights. I won't be reading his other works.
Kill, Tux, kill!
This could have been stated ever-so-much more clearly. Advice: don't use words just because you think they make you sound smart. It turns clear prose rotten. These two sentences could stop a fucking train.
Our intelligent designer has never created an animal that we couldn't improve by strapping a bomb to it.
His name was Imhotep
The Moore-Murphy Law: The number of things that will go wrong will double every 2 years.
He tells us, for instance, that legend says that gold comes from the north where it's stolen from the gryphons by a race of one-armed men. This, he says, is completely untrue because there can't be a race of one-armed men.
That's the charm of Herodotus. Is he really a gullible stranger in a strange land? Does he know that that Egyptian priests and Scythian warriors are telling him tall tales? Does he think we'll fall for it?
He clearly gets a kick out of relating tall tales. Some of them he seems to take at face value. In other cases, such as the Phoenix, he concludes with: "That's the story I was told, though I myself do not believe it." Occasionally he says, "I do not judge the truth of the matter: you decide."
-kgj
-kgj
Interestingly, the Samurai tradition (very roughly and broadly 1600-1850)followed this as well. "Inferior" women were allowed for sexual pleasure, but a samurai pure of heart would find a young man who could share the samurai's wholesomeness. This was intellectualized similarly, through the Confucian doctrine adopted from China.
The section on Pericles, in particular, sounds very interesting. I've drawn parallels between him and other modern leaders before (say, Churchill or Bill Clinton), but an analogy to Bush is not one that was on my list.
As I read The History of the Peloponnesian War, Thucydides seemed to suggest that the populus steered Athens toward its own destruction following the death of Pericles. Bush, on the other hand, is steering the US toward its own destruction while a large segment of the population tries to resist his movements in that direction. As far as I can tell, Bush and Pericles are complete opposites.
Thucydides's message was "Athens + Pericles = success; Athens - Pericles = failure". Maybe the author is a republican.
Was a cultural thing in the greek believe. Only heroes could get a semi pleasent afterlife in hades and only a handful were able to achieve god state and didnt have to endure pain and hopelessness in hades.
The problem of the total warfare was, that it basically brought down greek culture to its knees several times and eradicated it almost, also several times.
The pan hellenic war which started as the two superpowers athens and sparta went after each other basically brought decades of huge decline over the greek peninsula, the states of the old cold never recover fully and athens basically was led into semi oblivion.
Greek got another golden age of a few years during Alexanders time, his father was able for the first time in history to unit the hellenic peninsula and they brought the warfare into the middle east and asia. There is no need to mention that after alexanders deadh, everything fell apart and the greek culture declined due to constant warfares again before being safed from total desdruction of itself by the romans.
The real greek culture which was able to survive basically was the greek eastern roman empire, which was brought down the warfare of the surrounding states, but the eastern roman empire was one of the keys that civilization could survive by being a constant source of copies of the old greek and romand philosophers.
Greece is a typical example on how constant warfare can bring a civilization to its knees and almost to its collapse.
Ok, I know this is going to offend someone if not get nailed for this, and I know there are a lot of "homosexuals" who could do a better job of raising kids than some of the deadbeat heterosexuals out there, and there also a lot who care for and respect their partners more than many heterosexual partners do. But, I sill think it's crazy that anyone would want to put a relationship thats defined by ,say, anal sex on the same level as one that's defined by procreation, and also crazy that the government should support it and subsidize it at societies expense. Arguments like "we deserve freebe benefits, because some old people who can't have kids get freebes" - just doesn't cut it for me. But, if it's "gay" marrage is about benefits, then fine, but I don't think it should be put on the same level as a heterosexual marrage, really.
It must be /.'s subtle tie-in with the movie. Do they get a kickback?
When I saw "Greek culture" I thought the story was about something else.
I lived in Greece for a year, specifically Chania on the island of Crete. The story I heard from the locals about retsina is that it was invented during the time Greece was ruled by the Turks. The Turks, being notorius drunkards (according to my Greek friends.) would confiscate any alcohol the Greeks produced. One patriotic Greek vintner started sealing all his wine casks and skins with pine pitch, to make it taste awful and spite the Turks. Turns out they wouldn't touch the stuff, so the Greeks started drinking it, being the only thing available to them. They eventually learned to love it, or at least claim that they do out of national pride.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
The basic problem is that the author is incapable of imagining a world different from his own.
The leads to some annoying religious/political biases. Greek culture is evaluated based on what it contributed to Catholicism and social-justice (good) or what it contributed to Neoconservatism (bad). Annoyingly, Cahill takes V.D. Hanson and other neocon writers at their word when they say the Greeks anticipated neocon thought, when their findings are open to doubt.
But Cahill's lack of imagination shows up in other annoying ways. For example, some of the most interesting work being done in Classics these days is based on the hypothesis that early Greek poems like the Homeric epics were not written down once and for all by a monumental author at a very early date, but instead underwent continuous recomposition-in-performance until...depends on how radical you want to get; some scholars will say 500 BC, others 200 BC or later.
Cahill's argument against this is that the Iliad and Odyssey are too good to have been a collaborative effort. This is akin to saying that Linux must have been put together by a highly paid corporate team with extensive UML documents and an imprimatur from AT&T.
I'd recommend Greg Nagy's _The Best of the Achaeans_ if you want to see some of the more interesting directions that Greek scholarship has been taking in the past few decades.
Google confirms: Ruby is the world's most beloved programm
What are you talking about? Kerry neither beat the drums of war like Alcibiades nor ran the invasion like Nicias. Surely his service record in Vietnam bars him from being labeled a pansy. I haven't heard him advocate a withdraw from Iraq (right now) because he probably believes it would leave the place in a worse condition (for us) than it was before we went in.
I had a history teacher in High School who made a constant refrain of that analogy. She often compared the Cold War (this was during the Regan era) to ancient Greece.
If you like the subject matter, you may want to check out a novel by mostly the same title, by Harry Turtledove under a pseudonym. It was wonderful!
Mencken had it right. So glad that's old news.
Kerry neither beat the drums of war like Alcibiades nor ran the invasion like Nicias.
I didn't compare him with Alcibiades, and the fact that he is not running thngs yet is beside the point.
Nicias was no pansy. He had fought bravely as a yonger man, and had even proven to be a competent military leader. He was also widely admired for his other qualities. The problem was that he was opposed to the war and the expedition, yet he was unwilling to withdraw and bring the Athenians home. As a result he was unwilling to fight his way through, or take the heat for backing out.
Kerry appears to be in exactly the same position. He does not believe in the aims of the war, but neither is he willing to say that he will withdraw.
If the war is going to be fought effectively then the US needs a leader who wants to fight the war, and who believes in the aims of the war. If the US is going to pull out then it needs a leader who is willing to bring the troops home immediately before more lives wasted. What the US does not need is a leader like Kerry who neither believes in the cause, nor is willing to abandon it.
I know this is a bit off-topic, but perhaps it's fitting given the un-Slashdot-like nature of the article.
I will never forgive the Greeks for their lack of experimentation. I think Greek philosophy is the epidimy of egghead theory. Being a future egghead theorist myself, I can't forgive the Greeks for not getting their hands dirty with science. How hard would it have been to verify some basic concepts of gravity like Galileo did at the Tower of Pisa? The man used his heartbeat as a stopwatch. Frankly a crumpled piece of paper would have disproved Aristotelian physics [Asimov's observation, not mine].
The uncrumpled piece of paper is attracted less slowly than the crumpled version despite the fact both contain the same amount of "earth". Thus, a counterexample to a previously accepted axiom.
The stupidity of the Pythagorean mystique was another source of grief.
In fact, it wasn't until the 16th century that mathematicians began to deviate from the Greek induced world of mathematics. Newton's work on Calculus was not only unique in application; it was unique because of its application. Leibnitz and Boole's independent work on logic was a revolutionary attempt at some reasonable method of mechanical proof. It was considered heresy among mathematicians to deviate from the Greek proofs [see Margaret Baron's "The Origins of the Infinitesimal Calculus"]. In this regard, the study of mathematics in the middle ages resembled the study of modern rhetoric in philosophy. At the time, Euclid's work [whether he discovered it himself is a source of debate as well] was still considered supreme.
I believe philosophy is best when quantified. I've always argued that mathematics at its heart is the rigorous method of reason. In fact, I think Godel embodies the essence of modern philosophy. Godel took deep philosophical statements about mathematics and quantified them with proof. He also published some work [albeit controversial at best] in the area of cosmology as well. While it is extremely difficult for the average mathematician or philosopher to duplicate his feats, this should be the ultimate goal. Make philosophy rigorous. Of course, I've always believed science is where philosophy and engineering meet.
What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean....
I see your point now. It a Devil's bargain though. Now that we've made Iraq a desirable, if not hospitible home for Al Qaeda we can't leave until we've finished cleaning up the joint. The question to ask then might not be, "Who believes in this war?", but rather, "How can we stablize Iraq?".
I don't know. It doesn't sound like Bush is too eager to do things very well over there either.
However, you can't really have a meaningful debate over the motivation of an individual, i.e. Bush or Kerry, only of the actions and consequences of those actions which either might take.
Given that, I'd consider that if Bush or Kerry or Kermit the frog really wanted stabilization in Iraq, they'd send in an assload more troops and put the place under lockdown until elections.
I just don't see Bush as having the belief in the cause or the will to abandon it either, hence the half assed governmental "hand over" in july or june or whenever.
Just fucking around with homoerotic torture isn't going to do much good. You really do need to win the hearts and minds of the people or you need to crush their spirit with fear and brutality in the same manner as Hussein. Tell me, where do you think we are now in that regard?
In my opinion (and that gets you squat) they should have had small scale local elections, e.g. in the vilage or city block level, immediately after Hussein had fallen; these people would have been given some form of responsibility and the people could have had a better appreciation for the effects of democracy (for better and worse).
Likewise, they should probably hand out a few more of the reconstruction jobs to iraqi citizens and business rather than Dicks old buddies. I don't know about you but I'd rather make a few bucks a day and feed my family or myself than not.
Whose more likely to blow up an oil line, someone being paid to build it, or someone who sees money being made from their countries natural resources with little benefit being given back to the country?
I can't guess the motivation of Bush in going to war. I know I don't believe the imminent threat, I don't think the neo conservative movement is entirely to blame, but I do think they played a role. Some people think Bush did it for religious beliefs. You probably don't remember back in the 60's people were afraid to vote for Kennedy because they thought he would take direction from the pope. I really hope it's not because of religious beliefs. So, whatever his motivation was, the place is *screwed* now. It happened under his watch at his discretion, with important decisions having been delegated to people he chose. I really doubt it would be much worse under Kerry. My guess is that he, having spent time in combat, probably has a better idea of the realities regarding war than Bush does.
You're getting your PC mixed up. It was only the Taliban that mistreated women (and not because they were homosexuals -- they were, but that's not why the mistreated women.) Arabs are the most progressive womens libbers in the world. Don't you know that there was an anecdote by a white guy about Muslim laws of the 8th century that granted women divorces. See, Mohammed's first lady friend was a divorcee, so Islam is the religion of womens rights.
I haven't heard him advocate a withdraw from Iraq (right now)
Kerry's exact words on Iraq were "stay the course".
But that's the sort of perfectly ambiguous phrase politicians are infamous for. Since the stated goal of the US administration (safe democratic nationwide elections) is probably impossible by the stated deadline (June 30), "stay the course" can either mean one of two contradictory things: "stay there until the job is done", or "get out exactly when we planned".
Kerry wants wants voters to interpret him in whichever way matches their own beliefs.
The uncrumpled piece of paper is attracted less slowly than the crumpled version despite the fact both contain the same amount of "earth". Thus, a counterexample to a previously accepted axiom.
That's also a counterexample to the currently-accepted theory of "gravitation"- both papers have the same mass, so their downward acceleration should be the same.
To rectify gravitation with the falling movement of paper, you must understand that air is matter and be able to concieve of a vacum- and that prequisitc concept is actually a greater mental leap.
The stupidity of the Pythagorean mystique was another source of grief.
You can't really attack the old Greeks for failing to reach the level of Newtonian Calculus. It seems that most North Amercians are unable to grasp it today, even though they have access to all of Newton's writings and 10 years of free education to explain it all.
Really, the only reason England reached calculus and Greece didn't is because they had more people to work on it. Not only does the larger total population increase the chance of producing a single special genius, but also (as Newton himself said), much previous work (including the best of Greece) was available for him to start from.
More people * more time = more results.
(Other beneficial factors, such as "oceangoing empire" and "no slavery" I attribute as results of "more time". The only other thing that pushed England over Greece was mineral resources... which were actually an important part of getting practical benefit from math)
Absolutely, Americans are more like Romans - treat the rest of the world like shit and make few significant contributions to philosophy.
It's on sale.
Agreed to a point. Belief in a cause certainly helps, but it is no substitute for competence.
Given that, I'd consider that if Bush or Kerry or Kermit the frog really wanted stabilization in Iraq, they'd send in an assload more troops and put the place under lockdown until elections.
It was Rumsfeld who decided that less is more when it came to the invasion. I can't claim to know the reasoning behind this dictate. I can't even make a supposition. IIRC, the Pentagon brass wanted 400 to 500 thousand troops.
I just don't see Bush as having the belief in the cause or the will to abandon it either, hence the half assed governmental "hand over" in july or june or whenever.
I think half of that has got to be: "Fuck it. We're going nowhere. Let's hold some sort of election to get the ball rolling even though the place is still fucked." The other half might be a simple desire to put some weight on Iraqi shoulders before Bush comes up for reelection.
they should have had small scale local elections, e.g. in the vilage or city block level, immediately after Hussein had fallen; these people would have been given some form of responsibility and the people could have had a better appreciation for the effects of democracy (for better and worse).
This, like the other things you mentioned might have happened if the administration had followed the advice of the State Department -- advice for post war planning it had specifically requested long before American boots hit the sand. Instead, for reasons I can't fathom, the entire blueprint for reconstruction was scrapped. They even continued to ignore it while every problem predicted by the State Deparment became a fact on the ground.
I can't guess the motivation of Bush in going to war.
You aren't the only one. Tim Russert claims the President was told by someone close to him, "Someday you'll have to take me out to dinner and explain why you did this."
I don't think the neo conservative movement is entirely to blame...
Should we then blame Chalabi for fabricating evidence? Wolfowitz, and the others listened to him because he told them just what they wanted to hear. They got in the Presidents ear and he listened for nearly the same reasons they did.
Some people think Bush did it for religious beliefs.
Long before 9/11 GW came to believe that, "God wants me to be President." That is an actual quote. He is a born-again Christian who sees the world absolute terms of Good and Evil. Given that psychology, the attacks of 9/11, the hawkishness of those in his cabinet excepting Powell (e.g. Wolfowitz, Perle, Cheney), his familly history (Hussein bad for Dad), his nearly miraculous ascent to the White House (Gee, God really did want me to be President -- he must have special plans...), and maybe even an unslaked desire to kick some more Arab ass (Afghanistan: Was it really enough?), there's a recipe for grim decisions.
My guess is that he [Kerry], having spent time in combat, probably has a better idea of the realities regarding war than Bush does.
Collin Powell is the only member of the administration that's worn a uniform. He's also leaving at the end of this term whether Bush stays or not. My impression is that he's tired of having to go along with things he doesn't believe in.
well, the more we stay and screw up Iraq, the more the hospitable the home becomes.
If you can't see the regional picture, that's your problem. Your shortsightedness doesn't mean it's a bad idea to turn Iraq upside down in order to flush out regional terrorism, bring the fight to the doorstep of the enemy, and scare the piss out of neighboring countries and their terror-sponsoring regimes. And stop saying that Iraq has no ties to terrorism. Two easy examples are the bounty Saddam paid to Palestinian "martyrs" and the existence of Ansar in Kurdish territories. Sure, no one has linked Saddam to Al Qaeda (yet), but why is that necessary? If you think that Al Qaeda is something categorically different than the PLO, Hamas, Fatah, IJ, etc., you're a fool. If you think that smashing Saudi terrorism in direct retaliation for 9/11 will solve the problem, you are an even bigger fool.