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Beagle 2 Failure Analyzed

InsomniaCity writes "An inquiry into the loss of the Beagle 2 Mars probe in December will criticize the management of the project and the testing of the lander, says the BBC. Following the loss, the European Space Agency (Esa) and the British National Space Centre established a Commission of Inquiry, that are now recommending 19 things we need to remember for the future, from project management and fund raising, to high altitude testing of the parachute system. The commission, however, did not pinpoint any particular technical failure."

139 comments

  1. Simple Error? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    With how fast it was sent through production into use, it could have been something as simple as faulty programming.

    Maybe someone told it to use it's parachute at 5m instead of 5km? The world may never know.

    1. Re:Simple Error? by mallardtheduck · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I agree.
      A few weeks before the launch, there was a doumentary on the BBC about the probe. It was basically a one-man struggle to get the thing there, despite tight deadlines. I also noticed that some of the critical equiptment, I think including the parachute that they used, remained untested. (The one they tested broke during testing!) It was amazing that it even got into space, but there were definately worries about wether it would work or not before it was launched.

    2. Re:Simple Error? by WIAKywbfatw · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well the a 5m parachute deployment because of faulty programming, or any other software error, is easily checked by going over the code.

      But, yes, your basic point is correct: Beagle 2, which only came about because of the sheer will and determination of a handful of dedicated individuals, and on a shoestring budget, was in space exploration terms a last minute afterthought. As such, it didn't have the time or budget for being test and retested several times before the mission launch date.

      --

      "Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
    3. Re:Simple Error? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No new lessons learned, just the old programming law:

      Faster, Better, Cheaper -- pick two.

    4. Re:Simple Error? by Dizzle · · Score: 5, Funny

      They should have made the code open source. THAT would have solved it!

      I can see it now: "b2Landing is software to successfully land a spacecraft on a distant planet. Development status: 0 - Borked/Need Money"

      --
      -Dizzle
      "I most likely AM so interested in myself."
    5. Re:Simple Error? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Do you mean this? It can land on the Moon, Earth, and Jupiter! Only Mars needs to be implemented and then the ESA could use it!

    6. Re:Simple Error? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They should have made the code open source. THAT would have solved it!

      I can see it now: "b2Landing is software to successfully land a spacecraft on a distant planet. Development status: 0 - Borked/Need Money"


      Don't laugh, armchair critics have no idea the difficulties of organizing a space mission in the UK. ESA and government work against you (I mean from a practical sense because ESA's budgets are constrained to same proportion as member government's donation and there is overwhelming telecom dominance of all UK projects - the telecom lobby and government being now one and the same thing in practice!) There is a large number of subversives operating in the UK trying to keep UK out of good space projects, dumb down projects and derail proposals before they get off the ground. Directly experienced this when some bugger in a mailing list got wind of my project and chased up every microscopic detail (which meant only a big company with illegal ties into government) and then emailed ESA over nothing which got me locked out of their solicitations database.

      Thanks ESA. Yeah you too --- that guy in the background saying thats not possible.

    7. Re:Simple Error? by flossie · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Faster, Better, Cheaper -- pick two.

      They did. They picked "faster" due to launch date constraints and "cheaper" because they couldn't get the necessary sponsorship to spend more money. There was never any great secret about it, but it would still have been much "better" than nothing if it had worked.

    8. Re:Simple Error? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would still be sitting on sourceforge ("The project has not released any files") rather than on mars as it is now -- albeit a heap of debris.

    9. Re:Simple Error? by tiger99 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, I saw that, and feared the worst. The project was simply under-funded, which is why things did not get done. It was not due to any lack of technical competence. I have seen projects like this before, not necessarily involving space exploration, where those who control the cash supply something less than the absolute minimum necessary to to the job, with the inevitable result. Partly it happens because, especially in the UK, those who control the money usually have no scientific or technical ability whatsoever, and they imagine that there is always some way of making economies, when in matters of hard fact such as equipment design, there usually is not.

  2. Exploring other worlds is expensive by Space+cowboy · · Score: 5, Interesting


    The cost of Beagle 2 varies (depending on who you ask) between 25 and 35 million pounds. Let's take an average of 30 million. The cost of the US Mars Rovers was 800 million for 2 (with savings on each because there were 2 of them). Right there is why Beagle 2 failed. Any failures in management are going to be mere perturbations on a delta-function graph - they had the best available technology, science, and equipment for the costs they could afford.

    It's interesting to note that Manchester United paid 30 million for Rio Ferdinand from Leeds United (this is English Premier League Football, for those not UK based) which sort of sums up the UK attitude to space travel. We pay roughly equivalent amounts to move a footballer about 65 miles as we do to send a robot explorer to a different planet in search of life....

    I think it all starts at a very early age. Sport is instinctively popular amongst kids and remains popular amongst adults. Science for kids is boring and dull (apart from Chemistry where once in a blue moon you get to blow something up). There are tables to learn, maths equations to solve, rules and laws to learn by rote. None of this is fun.

    As kids become adults, they keep their inhibitions about science ... Which is a more popular topic in a bar (or anywhere, really), the search for the Higgs Boson, or 'Who will win the league' ? Adults like the fact that 'hey, we went to the moon', but it's a transient 'win' for science. Within a week it's no longer important, and the mountain to climb to get back on the agenda has just got higher...

    The case for the prosecution of "boring science at school" rests, M'lud.

    Simon.

    --
    Physicists get Hadrons!
    1. Re:Exploring other worlds is expensive by jcam2 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      It's interesting to note that Manchester United paid 30 million for Rio Ferdinand from Leeds United (this is English Premier League Football, for those not UK based) which sort of sums up the UK attitude to space travel.

      I'm sure you could find a few US baseball players whose combined salaries exceeded the cost of their mars landers .. but despite the fact that the US public is far more interested in sport that space exploration, they still managed to land two probes on mars :-)

      Maybe the real issue is the size of the US vs UK economy, which is what really determines the amount of money available to spend on mars missions.

    2. Re:Exploring other worlds is expensive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "The cost of Beagle 2 varies (depending on who you ask) between 25 and 35 million pounds. Let's take an average of 30 million. The cost of the US Mars Rovers was 800 million for 2 (with savings on each because there were 2 of them). Right there is why Beagle 2 failed. Any failures in management are going to be mere perturbations on a delta-function graph - they had the best available technology, science, and equipment for the costs they could afford."

      You're correct on half of the problem where inadequate money was provided for testing. In many engineering fields quality assurance is considered as important as the initial design. Without enough QA, you won't know where the design fails (take the minor software glitch in the Spirit rover as an example).

      But I think the other problem is culture. Everyone expects NASA to be successful and is incredibly suprised when something goes wrong. For new space agencies, like that of the UK and the ESA, that don't yet have a reputation of doing much, a failure isn't that big of a deal. This is of course the wrong thinking. If they continue down this course they will just create another mediocre bueracracy, similar to any other in the government. If they want to have a successful space program they must challenge NASA. Losing a lander throws out their credibility. And since science is on the fringe of government priorities, like you discussed, losing credibility will kill the agency. While it made sense to make a gamble for a cheap lander from a scientific prospective, it is a very dangerous gamble indeed with the fate of their space agency.

    3. Re:Exploring other worlds is expensive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrongo! The US has a disproportionate amount of money put into its space program compared to its economic size. NASA gets about $15 billion a year compared to ESA which gets about $7 billion, for example. The ESA is also just getting off of its feet so it needs more money for getting the basic infrastructure and technologies down (which means less than $7 billion is actually being used if it were comparable with NASA). The economy of all of Europe is more than half of the US'.

      The problem is credibility. NASA has succeeded spectacularly in the past, so noone thinks it's a crazy gamble to toss money into it because they *expect* rewards. Tossing money into a new agency that has no credibility and no grand dream (like going to the Moon) sounds like a crazy gamble.

    4. Re:Exploring other worlds is expensive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
      It's interesting to note that Manchester United paid 30 million for Rio Ferdinand from Leeds United (this is English Premier League Football, for those not UK based) which sort of sums up the UK attitude to space travel. We pay roughly equivalent amounts to move a footballer about 65 miles as we do to send a robot explorer to a different planet in search of life....


      That 30million isn't real money though because it never really leaves the football transfer system. They may as well trade in shiny beads quite frankly. Player salaries however, are different as the payment becomes the property of the player to spend, presumably, in the general economy.

      Which is a more popular topic in a bar (or anywhere, really), the search for the Higgs Boson, or 'Who will win the league' ?


      Well, as a Lancashire follower I have to say their position looks very good at the moment.

      That's a good tip by the way for fending off football bores; in response to the question "did you see the England match yesterday," the correct response is, "why yes, 374 for 2 is an excellent first innings total, England should beat Australia by five tests this series."
    5. Re:Exploring other worlds is expensive by Slashamatic · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Manchester United paid 30 million for Rio Ferdinand from Leeds United (this is English Premier League Football,
      Bad example, Leeds is no longer premier league (at least after this season) and they desperately need the cash due to some very dodgy management.

      But back to the Beagle, I agree. At the same time, Football is a game frequently associated with dodgy accounting and poor management, however they make a fortune. Heavy science always costs a fortune, even 'lite' projects like Beagle. I thought the whole idea to be good, it is just a pity that they didn't have just a little bit more cash and time for testing.

      As for education, well science is interesting (kids do like to find out things) and a good teacher can make a spectacular difference. However it takes a lot more understanding to appreciate science than it does the average ball game and nothing is going to change that.

    6. Re:Exploring other worlds is expensive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Kinda like how commercial expensive software is better than open source?

      Seriously... if we're ever going to successfully become a spacefaring species, we have to change the structure of society and our economic system. To what, I'm not sure, but I'm sure this wont work forever. We can hardly afford reaching LEO, how the hell are we supposed to go to the moon, mars and other stars?

    7. Re:Exploring other worlds is expensive by Space+cowboy · · Score: 0, Offtopic
      Bad example, Leeds is no longer premier league (at least after this season) and they desperately need the cash due to some very dodgy management.


      Er - Leeds sold Rio in July 2002, the year after they were in the most prestigious footballing competition in the world - the Champions league! At the time, they were flying high. Granted, it was Icarus-like but that was due to later seasons not at the time...

      I think it's a great example :-)

      Simon
      --
      Physicists get Hadrons!
    8. Re:Exploring other worlds is expensive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "We can hardly afford reaching LEO, how the hell are we supposed to go to the moon, mars and other stars?"

      The same way we were able to afford a flight across the Atlantic. One step at a time. Almost noone could afford a computer in the 1950's, but now anyone can. The expensive part isn't the implementation. The implementation has restraints, but the price can be reduced through competition. The difficult and expensive part is the development. And that takes time and money. Be patient, it will happen eventually (but perhaps not in your lifetime).

    9. Re:Exploring other worlds is expensive by wfberg · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      That 30million isn't real money though because it never really leaves the football transfer system. They may as well trade in shiny beads quite frankly. Player salaries however, are different as the payment becomes the property of the player to spend, presumably, in the general economy.

      That money was minted though - it came from somewhere (the rest of the economy). Let them switch to beads and give me the money!

      A good example of actual fake money is "market capitalization" or "$x million in stock" (where in reality, if all those shares were dumped on the market, you couldn't find any one to buy them, most certainly not at the listed stock price). Too bad decisions about actual money are made based on phony figures like that.

      --
      SCO employee? Check out the bounty
    10. Re:Exploring other worlds is expensive by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Right on the money. I don't put any value on enterntainment system based on pushing the envelope of human physical abilities. My colleagues at work don't understand me, in Canada you 'must' be a hokey fan and you 'must' drink beer after work. Well, I don't drink and I don't care for watching sports. Obviously this means that I have almost nothing incommon with the people I work with (I also have my own views on life and family in principle, which are considered to be antisocial and even sociopatic.)

      BTW. my girlfriend is a very technical person and shares some of my views. We both don't fit in the rest of the 'normal' society here. And that is what you end up being - an outcast if you don't care about the things that are important to the majority and care about things that cannot excite most people. Thus the problem.

    11. Re:Exploring other worlds is expensive by mikejz84 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Because of the high R&D costs associated with designing a space probe--it on average only costs 15% of what the first one cost to build a second one. Hence this was the reason behind the dual US rovers, the second one was also free relatively speaking. I would of made a lot of sense just to have had ESA chip in and make it three rovers instead of trying to design a whole new lander on a budget that almost assured a poor outcome. P.s. Stupidest idea of all: Not having telemetry during landing

    12. Re:Exploring other worlds is expensive by edxwelch · · Score: 1

      Umm, according to the artical time was the limiting factor. Beagle was added to the project very late and they did not have enough time to test the parachutes properly. So I presume that is what most likely caused the probe to fail.

    13. Re:Exploring other worlds is expensive by DerekLyons · · Score: 1
      I think it all starts at a very early age. Sport is instinctively popular amongst kids and remains popular amongst adults. Science for kids is boring and dull (apart from Chemistry where once in a blue moon you get to blow something up). There are tables to learn, maths equations to solve, rules and laws to learn by rote. None of this is fun.
      Real science isn't fun. (To most.) It involves thinking, reading, and mind numbingly boring repititive detail work. Nothing is going to change that. Edutainment only makes matters worse by raising false expectations.
    14. Re:Exploring other worlds is expensive by UpnAtom · · Score: 1

      Since we could send up 50-odd Beagle 2s for the cost of the NASA Mars Rovers, it would make sense to do that.
      OTOH, if the same point-of-failure was inherent in all of them, that would be stupid.

      It seems that no-one is blaming cost. The project was feasible, but the timescale wasn't and management wasn't up to it.

    15. Re:Exploring other worlds is expensive by sydb · · Score: 1

      While I must admit to enjoying various alcoholic beverages I empathise entirely with regard to mass culture being based on idiocy like knocking balls about fields.

      I'm in the UK and here it's football. People ask if I'm watching the match at the weekend; I tell them I'm not interested in football and they go on to tell me what a shame such and such a team was beat last week and how great a season it's been for Blahblah United. My eyes glaze over while I nod politely, I reiterate that I don't much care for spectator sport, the conversation eventually ends.

      Next time I meet them the whole thing repeats! It's extraordinary. I've given up trying to avoid these conversations now and I will actively ask how a person's favourite team are doing, and if I've heard anything in the news like a big match I might mention it. Its like a kind of evil virulent social lubricant. People are incapable of interacting without mentioning sport.

      Other than the sheer passivity of watching other people run about on a pitch, I can't stand the ridiculous fees these grown up children are paid. Call it envy or jealousy - I don't care - there is no justification in a civilised society for these people to be rewarded for faffing about in large groups for 90 minutes a week. There are so many better ways to spend the money.

      Makes me angry!

      Congratulations on finding a girl with whom you can share your interests.

      --
      Yours Sincerely, Michael.
    16. Re:Exploring other worlds is expensive by cosmo7 · · Score: 1

      BRUSSELS (AP) - Scientists at the European Space Agency expressed regret today at reports that England defender Rio Ferdinand would not be selected for the Mars Express mission later this year. ESA based the decision on Ferdinand's failure to attend a scheduled drug test.

      It had been hoped that Ferdinand's free style would provide a much needed boost to Earth's defence record. Instead the ESA probe will use a European-style sweeper system based around either the Beagle 2 robot or David Seaman, depending which is found to be the most expendable.

  3. Brilliant discoveries by lewko · · Score: 5, Funny

    They are recommending 19 things we need to remember for the future, including "testing of the parachute system".

    Am I the only one who can't believe they didn't think of this before?

    --
    Do you or your partner snore? - Visit www.snoring.com.au
    1. Re:Brilliant discoveries by mallardtheduck · · Score: 5, Informative

      Am I the only one who can't believe they didn't think of this before?

      And you would be right to not believe that they did not think of it. They did. They took it out to some desert and did a test drop. It failed. They damaged the parachute. Time constraints meant that they just had to use the untested spare parachute. This was all on a BBC documentary about the project.

    2. Re:Brilliant discoveries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny story. They tested the Beagle 2 parachute / airbag landing sytem, they failed. They redesigned them but couldn't afford another test so they just called it good and sent it to Mars. So the parachute system actually used was not tested.

    3. Re:Brilliant discoveries by kfg · · Score: 1

      "Well, we've just proven that it won't work. 10. . .9. . . 8. . . 7. . ."

      KFG

  4. Duh... by WIAKywbfatw · · Score: 3, Funny

    Which is a more popular topic in a bar (or anywhere, really), the search for the Higgs Boson, or 'Who will win the league'?

    When it's his turn to buy the drinks, the search for Higgs Boson wins hands down.

    --

    "Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
  5. It was the name by imbezol · · Score: 5, Funny

    If they'd have named it Siamese, I'm sure it would have landed right.

    BigFiber.net

    1. Re:It was the name by kfg · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but then all it would have done after that is emit a high pitched and annoying whine while scratching up Mars.

      KFG

    2. Re:It was the name by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe they should have surrounded it with buttered toast instead?

  6. bad name ... by drmancini · · Score: 3, Funny

    A couple of geeks from slashdot should have checked their documentation before they even built Beagle II ... They may have succeeded :) Obviously, they should have named it Slashdot I ...

    --

    Never underestimate the power of idiots in large groups
    1. Re:bad name ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What?
      And slashdot Mars!?

  7. Simple Things... by Dozix007 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I realize this is not an American probe, but the American example of Metric\American system is a prime example of things that generally go wrong on these type of missons. Generally simple, easy to avoid things are the prime kickers. While hind site is 20/20, I think some increased quality control would be quite usefull.

    1. Re:Simple Things... by MoonFog · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, this: But the project faced severe time pressures and not all its components were tested to the complete satisfaction of its engineers. is another prime example imo. How many times as a CS student haven't I heard about time schedules and pressure. It's also kind of scary that they are willing to send out a probe like that without testing it to the "satisfaction of its engineers". That's a lot of wasted tax payers money.

    2. Re:Simple Things... by Vellmont · · Score: 2, Informative


      I think some increased quality control would be quite usefull.


      And I'm sure the engineers who designed it would agree with you 100%. The root problem as another poster pointed out was there wasn't enough money to do that. The budget was shoestring $50 million. You can't go to mars for less than it costs to make a movie about going to mars.

      --
      AccountKiller
    3. Re:Simple Things... by flossie · · Score: 3, Insightful
      That's a lot of wasted tax payers money.

      In your opinion, perhaps. This was a high risk, high reward programme from the very beginning. There was never any secret that there was a fairly high probability that it would not be successful; it was a project based on hope rather than expectation. However, it would be unfair to say that it has not acheived anything. Much of the work may be useful in designing future landers but, more importantly, the project fired the imagination of the British public. I think it is far more likely now that there will be another, better funded, attempt to land on Mars than if this project had never taken place.

    4. Re:Simple Things... by Vellmont · · Score: 1


      That's a lot of wasted tax payers money.

      $50 millions US dollars might as well be pennies. It's very sad that the mission failed, but this is just not a waste of any substantial amount of money. Hopefully the UK space program has learned a few things and can try again based on what they've learned. I bet it costs more than 50 million to introduce a new food product (and I bet most of those fail too).

      The cost is probbably more in moral and PR for the UK space program. NASA suffered from this a few years ago. I really hope the UK tries again and is successful next time.

      --
      AccountKiller
    5. Re:Simple Things... by MoonFog · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying they didn't achieve anything, but wouldn't it be worth it to stretch the timescale and perhaps invest a bit more money to make sure that things were up to the standard they should be?

    6. Re:Simple Things... by MoonFog · · Score: 1

      If that's not a substatial amount of money, why on earth didn't they use more and make sure the project succeeded?

    7. Re:Simple Things... by tmortn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      actually you can. Granted to probe wasn't completely successfull but it most certainly did get to mars for less than the cost of a movie about going to mars.

      --
      I don't ask you to be me. I only ask you not expect me to be you.
    8. Re:Simple Things... by Vellmont · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, taking statements too literally. You know what I meant, you're just being picky.

      --
      AccountKiller
    9. Re:Simple Things... by tmortn · · Score: 1

      My response had little to do with taking your statements too litterally. I was responding to the spirit of your comment indicating that the mission was doomed to failure simply due to the amount spent. Their is no law stating that a mars mission has to cost X dollars. Hell had the rovers failed that same argument could have been used for them, they were very economic by comparison to other ventures.

      So, I really do not think I was being picky at all. Simply reaching the planet for the amount of money spent was a great acomplishment. Afterall, can you imagine what a succesfull landing of beagle could have done to the mind set of what it takes to explore mars ?

      As knowledge increases it becomes easier and easier to accomplish great feats. It is about time for a our knowledge of space travel to begin making things easier and showing that it is an activity no different from anything else. The more you do it the cheaper and easier it becomes at the same time we countinually get better and better at doing it. 20 years ago accomplishing what Beagle did for the money spent ( with the possibility for landing an explorer ) was unthinkable. Now it is perhaps one more iteration from working.

      You say I am being picky... I am simply saying your glass is half full.

      --
      I don't ask you to be me. I only ask you not expect me to be you.
    10. Re:Simple Things... by bluGill · · Score: 1

      Engineers are never satisfied. Trust me, 100% satisfaction never happens. Management has to guess from our reports when the risk of failure is low enough to ship.

      That said, somethings deserve more attention than others. If the probe had landed correctly and the radios worked, but nothing else that would still be worth more than if it had landed correctly everything else would work. So priority needs to be put on landing and radios. (if nothing else you can get some data just based on signal strength from the radio, nothing useful perhaps, but at least it is something) If half the experimental tools failed to work, but it landed successfully at least you would have a few experiments you could do.

      Management needs to better understand how to prioritize things engineers would tell you the above is true. Working on the experiments is more fun than triple checking the landing system, so management needs to make sure that the engineers spend more time on landing. (I'm guess what is fun, not being a rocket engineer)

    11. Re:Simple Things... by AlecC · · Score: 2, Informative

      Stretching the timescale was simply not an option. It was a passenger on Mars Ezpress, which was going to launch in a particular narrow window because of the relative positions of Mars and Earth. The options were 1: fit it into the time available, 2: cancel.

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    12. Re:Simple Things... by dhaines · · Score: 1
      ...probe wasn't completely successfull...

      Well, the movie wasn't either.

    13. Re:Simple Things... by Vellmont · · Score: 2, Informative

      The Beagle II piggybacked on the Mars Express spacecraft. It could have been a rock and would have gotten to mars. That in itself is just not an accomplishment.

      If it actually would have worked, sure that would have been a great accomplishment. I don't know about being doomed to failure, but given the money and limited testing it should be fairly obvious that it's not highly likely it'll succeed. That's fine, not everything has to suceed. For only 50 million, you try again later from what you've learned.

      --
      AccountKiller
    14. Re:Simple Things... by tmortn · · Score: 1

      Eh, hitting something 40 million miles away is an accomplishment in my book be it a rock or a Rover impersonating one. However, I agree piggybacking makes it less of one... IE they didn't accomplish the task with the 50 million but paid for a ride on the technology that accomplished that.

      Giants and shoulders and all that. Sloppy effort or simply underfunded I really find much to be excited about with the Beagel II launch. Lowering the bar and being willing to take risks is something that has to happen. Now if only more people were willing to chalk it up to experience and move on.

      --
      I don't ask you to be me. I only ask you not expect me to be you.
  8. Re:Wow by Cooke · · Score: 2, Insightful

    umm well the Mars Rover did arive a weak after beagle... sabotage I tell you

  9. the british are great engineers by polished+look+2 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    the rolls royce engines are some of the best plus they have lots of other things.

    1. Re:the british are great engineers by Dizzle · · Score: 2, Funny

      Food and teeth excluded.

      --
      -Dizzle
      "I most likely AM so interested in myself."
  10. Incomplete testing will always set you up to fail by Shivantrill · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I am a bit amazed that they tested everything individually but didn't do an end to end testing.
    I realize that they were on a tight schedule. I wonder if they performed environmental testing under extreme conditions? The article didn't mention it but it is really important. Especially since I doubt the mars atmospere resembles the weather in Great Britain.
    I think it would be cool if they gave it another go.

    --
    Karma, We don't need no stinkin' karma!
  11. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And the Viking landers arrived 18 years prior to that, what's your point?

    <tinfoil hat/>Were the Viking landings faked just like the Moon was?</tinfoil hat/>

  12. Any standart followed...? by kdachev · · Score: 1, Interesting


    I wonder, actually, does anybody know if there are some standarts followed in such projects?

    As for example in software development, the CMM is quite common nowadays, I know it's roots are somewhere deep in the defence/aerospace industry... So knowing it, I is hard to imagine, that organisation following even harder guidelines (I hope) and employing well educated (I presume) and motivated (of course) people, can overlook issues as properly testing the parachutes, and other mission critical elements...

    Of course, the human factor is never to be underestimated, but this is why we have created and adher to these standarts...

    Any ideas?

    1. Re:Any standart followed...? by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well,

      CMM is *known* just like smeltery and pottery is *known*.

      CMM is a kind of measure how able you are to do software or other engineering work. So *knowing* it is not enough, you have to apply it.

      CMM has 5 levels ... or five digits on your measure meter. Level 1 is the lowest and level 5 the highest. On level 5 are world wide about 10 to 15 software development departments.

      Even on level 3 are only about 35% of all software engineering departments(companies).

      Basicly: the majority of development labs don't use any advanced software engineering practice. Example is my curent contract, a company with 40,000 employees and about 1000 software engineers and about 2000 external consultants/software engineers, they are on CMM level 1.

      Before I started to help them they not even had a revision control system. Issue tracking was done with an Excel sheet ... with about 3000 lines of issues per project. Neither did they follow a decent way to gather requirements ... no way of testing ... they even used a proprietary programming language ... I could continue :D

      Regarding Beagel 2: I guess the Beagle project was well aware of their quallity or lack there off. However if you like to catch a train the most important thing is to be in time at the train station. The ESA Mars Express had no chance to wait for Beagel 2. There was a launch window depending on the positions of the planets during that time in the solar system. The Beagel team did the best they could to get a probe ready to be fitted into the Mars Express probe and to join the trip.

      Note: Mars is still a not very well explored/understood world. Recent informations (noted here on /.) suggested that the atmosphere pressure varies in a far broader range than we assumed so far. If you have a lander scheduled to open its parashutes at pressure X and you asume you have a good enough altitude at that pressure but in fact the weather conditions are totally different .... you crash land.

      I would not wonder if Beagel 2 worked perfectly but crashed because of unexpected circumstances. Roughly 50% of all Mars landers crashed ....

      angel'o'sphere

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    2. Re:Any standart followed...? by reddish · · Score: 1

      The standard documents applicable for recent ESA software engineering projects are the ECSS standards (http://www.ecss.nl/). These are followed with some leniency for non-critical ground-based S/W, but adherence demands becomes quite strict for critical ground-based S/W and flight-software.

  13. Learn spelling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's ESA not Esa, do U write Usa???, michael: -1 point.

    1. Re:Learn spelling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think a proper comparison would be ESA to NASA.

    2. Re:Learn spelling by maelstrom · · Score: 2, Funny

      Why do "U" write "you" as "U"?

      --
      The more you know, the less you understand.
    3. Re:Learn spelling by AlecC · · Score: 1

      My take on this is that it depends how you pronounce it. I do sometimes say EEe-sir, so Esa would be correct. I never say Yoo-sir, so it is USA. If you want to enforce Ee-Ess-Eh, it should be ESA.

      After all, the original purpose of script was to represent speech. So it makes sense to use the extra flexibility of capitalisation to convey information about speech.

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    4. Re:Learn spelling by Krach42 · · Score: 1

      I don't know... everytime I see ESA, I pronounce it "Eh-Es-Ah" (for all you Americans out there).

      Fact is, that even when you pronounce the object out, such as "NASA" you still capitalize all of it, because it's an acronym. If you applied your rules, then it become inconsistant, where anyone can say, "I say Yousah, so I can write it Usa".

      Your logic thusly fails.

      --

      I am unamerican, and proud of it!
  14. Speed to market... by lewko · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The speed at which new technologies are rushed from design through to market is a concern.

    Admittedly technology that may have fatal consequences (like aircraft, flying machines and drugs)is usually subject to more regimented testing before release, but there is no shortage of products without such controls.

    How many of us end-users should have been called beta-testers instead (cough...mobile phones...operating systems etc.)?

    Unfortunately the rush to get the product to market before competition meant there wasn't enough time (or interest) in testing it. Was that the problem here, with the Mars Rover on the way at the same time as the Beagle?

    --
    Do you or your partner snore? - Visit www.snoring.com.au
    1. Re:Speed to market... by mallardtheduck · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think the ESA did want to get 'Mars Express', the orbiter that was Beagle's 'Mothership' to Mars before the NASA probes, but the launch date was already set before work on Beagle started. This meant that the Beagle team had a very tight and final deadline, so they did not have time to test everything fully.

  15. Re:Wow by Cooke · · Score: 2, Funny

    [joke]I think the point is clear, Bush saw that the British were going to get there first. So he took it down.[/joke]

  16. What a load of garbage. by tsotha · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Every time something bad happens the Monday-morning quarterbacks come out of the woodwork. If you read the article you see they don't have any idea what went wrong, but they have all sorts of expensive ideas on how to fix the problem.

    Space missions are risky and expensive. You can spend lots of extra money and have the mission fail anyway. And there's a danger of it getting cancelled altogether if you spend too long testing.

    1. Re:What a load of garbage. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Entirely fair comment (I work in the "industry" concerned). One thing to remember with Beagle/Mars Express and many other interplanetaries is the Launch date is FIXED by orbital motions and that puts some pressure on development and testing.

    2. Re:What a load of garbage. by rebelcool · · Score: 1

      As I recall the software for the current mars rovers wasn't even complete before it was launched. They had to upload it remotely while it was in transit.

      And then of course when they filled up their flash ram and crashed the computers, that required another remote software upgrade...

      --

      -

  17. Experience is just as important as funding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm not so sure that funding is the sole source of ESA's woes. Of course, when you're only budgeting 1/30th the amount as your competitors, things aren't always going to work out.

    But consider the fact that ESA was founded in 1975 (May 30, 1975, to be exact. We're almost at the anniversary...) By this time, the USA had already tested numerous rockets, put men into space, and had landed men on the moon six years prior. The orbiter was already in development and the first "space shuttle" would be deployed less than a year later.

    ESA has a lot of catching up to do, even now. I don't doubt that NASA and ESA share a lot of data, but for the time being, NASA has a great deal of experience over any competing space agency. Funding is not the only problem that ESA will have to overcome before it can be seen as NASA's contemporary.

    --
    Rate Naked People (Not work-safe)

  18. Bad Idea by ShadowRage · · Score: 2, Interesting

    it would never meet the deadlines because of all the new features being put into it constantly.

  19. Not really ... by Rolo+Tomasi · · Score: 1

    "British engineering - where nothing quite works as intended."

    --
    Did you know you can fertilize your lawn with used motor oil?
  20. rubbish. by torpor · · Score: 1


    i know you were just trying to be flip for a quick slant, but i don't for a minute believe that just because a space-delivery suite of tools was made 'open source', it would be constantly under weight of feature creep...

    there are -tons- of very well executed open source projects which set out specific, verifiable, real milestones, and then proceed to make those milestones...

    --
    ; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
    1. Re:rubbish. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow. A 3 digit uid, and a totally blind zealot. Haven't seen one of those in a while.

    2. Re:rubbish. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep. Just like the Mozilla browser. In fact, they did such a good job of keeping within reasonable goals and avoiding feature creep, they decided to start again with Firefox. You know, just for fun. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to fire up Mozilla and install 50 new themes, chat using Chatzilla and compose some HTML in Composer.

    3. Re:rubbish. by MROD · · Score: 1

      Now, Mozilla merely suffered from "second system syndrome."

      --

      Agrajag: "Oh no, not again!"
  21. Wait, you mean... by Anonymous+Cowdog · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...the British scientific information ministers finally admitted it failed?? I thought they were holding out hope until the 2038 rollover.

  22. So what! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It was a 40 mio Euro project, and a hastened afterthought at that. You learn something even from failures and the next time we Europeans send a probe to land on Mars we'll have the improved model.

    Gotta start somewhere, right?

    I am just glad the Esa seems to become serious about space exploration.

  23. It failed because... by RayBender · · Score: 0, Troll
    ...the British government cares as much about space exploration as the American one does about human rights.

    --
    Human genome = 3 billion base pairs = 6 GBit. Windows + Office = 20 Gbit. Which is more impressive?
    1. Re:It failed because... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh wow. Best. Post. Ever.

      I'm so glad the UK Govt. has sense about these things. They don't waste their taxpayer's money on useless crap like finding rocks and sometimes some more rocks and taking photographs. "WOW".

      Seriously, not to troll, but what significant developments have been achieved through space exploration? Sure, you could say something like "We went to the moon!" but how has this benefitted mankind?

      I simply don't believe it is worth it.

    2. Re:It failed because... by RayBender · · Score: 1
      Moderation Total: 0 : 30% Funny, 20% Troll, 20% Insightful

      How is this possible?

      --
      Human genome = 3 billion base pairs = 6 GBit. Windows + Office = 20 Gbit. Which is more impressive?
  24. Blame by jjeffrey · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I hope no-one blames Professor Pillinger for this. He did a great job under the circumstances and he deserves a chance to try again - this time with funding and commitement from ESA.

  25. Engage Brain BEFORE Speaking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The Mosquito was actually a very successful plane. The engineers had the sense to use a highly sophisticated composite material using hollow fibres for stiffness (otherwise known as wood).

    They chose wood, not to impress the ignorant, but because it was the best material for the job in the circumstances - that is largly what engineering is about.

    1. Re:Engage Brain BEFORE Speaking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And AVRO Lancaster, and HP Halifax, and the imbatible Spitfire and the Hurricane and ... and... , hey Harrier Jump Jet was a Britain invention too!.
      Leave him alone, he can only see what US engeneers do, he is blinded.

    2. Re:Engage Brain BEFORE Speaking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry (british invention).

    3. Re:Engage Brain BEFORE Speaking by AlecC · · Score: 1

      They chose wood, not to impress the ignorant, but because it was the best material for the job in the circumstances - that is largly what engineering is about.

      And also because there were a large number of skilled wood workers not yet contributing to the war effort, while all the metal workers were at full stretch. Another good engineering decision - material supply matters (from someone whose hardware needs some redesign as chips go obsolete).

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
  26. Wow! by glenalec · · Score: 1

    An AC.
    See them all the time around here! ;-)

    --
    The man with no surname and a silly hat

    On the universe: It's bunk.
  27. Re:the british are great engi--- Who modded this?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Parent got a "3 Interesting", for some random off-topic sentence?
    Must be this Imperial unit system...

  28. Lost it? by t_allardyce · · Score: 1

    It sounds like the sort of thing that would happen if it was a project at my uni: under-funded, lack of experts, people leaving things to the last minute or having too tight a schedule, that sense of "oh shit this is so much work the deadlines tomorrow, lets just solder all this crap together and get it done" and not enough strict planning and organisation. I don't know who's fault it really was, or why i keep seeing this sort of thing happening, maybe we've lost the knack - we used to rule half the world and now we cant even get mini-sized probe on mars :(

    --
    This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
  29. Er by lpontiac · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I remember reading a few years ago about the "new" approach to space exploration. Instead of sending less probes, they (the space agencies) would be sending more, cheaper probes. The idea being that yes, there would be a higher proportion of failures, but when offset against the increased number of missions overall, we'd end up with a higher (number of successful missions) / (total expenditure across all missions).

    A similar idea crops up in the manned versus unmanned debate - "unmanned exploration is cheaper because amongst other things, you don't have to be as sure the spacecraft won't fail because there's no human life at stake."

    We've now got our numerous, cheaper (Beagle cost 50 million pounds), unmanned missions. But when half of them fail (der!), people get into a kink!

  30. Let's go look for it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've often wondered if, when they're otherwise pretty much done, NASA couldn't send one of their rovers off to look for Beagle wreakage. I suspect the MPL site is too far from sunlight to let a solar-powered rover make it there...

    (Yeah, I know; they're pretty slow to be going off globe-trotting, and they probably wouldn't remain operation for that long. Sigh.)

  31. Hopefully one of those 19 things is . . . by edward.virtually@pob · · Score: 2, Funny

    Next time, don't program it to land in a crater. NASA was lucky that their similarly boneheaded failure to include filesystem cleanup code in their Mars landers was repairable.

  32. 19 things we need to remember ... by datadriven · · Score: 1

    Would have been nice if they were listed.

    1. Re:19 things we need to remember ... by Patrik_AKA_RedX · · Score: 1

      The first 10 points on the list:

      1) load batteries before lanch.
      2) Check if Bob's children haven't left toys in the space probe.
      3) Make sure that the coffee contains cafeine.
      4) Check if the diagrams aren't upside down.
      5) Make sure nobody involved in the project has bought their Ph D online.
      6) Don't hide porn in the technical manuals. That means you Bob!
      7) No alcohol use at work. Bob, put down that bottle!
      8) Use SI units. Don't invent new ones.
      9) The law of nature apply everywhere and everytime. Don't count on exceptions, no matter what your Bibble says.
      10) Don't hire people named Bob.

  33. Probably not a software error by johannesg · · Score: 3, Interesting
    That is a cause that's easy to rule out: just examine the software. And before you ask: yes, they kept a copy of the source around on Earth...

    The software was actually built by LogicaCMG. At work we received a christmas card from them (i.e. before it was known that the probe had failed), saying this:

    "LogicaCMG delivered the mission-critical software that controls Beagle 2 during the hazardous ride through the Martian atmosphere, releasing the heat shield and deploying parachutes and gas-filled air bags, slowing Beagle 2 down from its 14,000 mph/22,530 kph approach velocity to a safe landing on the surface of Mars"

    Or maybe not - but thanks for the card anyway ;-)

  34. Bounce-Fart .... Bounce-Fart .... Bounce-Fart by kabz · · Score: 1

    Being British, the main problem with Beagle was that those UK scientists, instead of using heavy-duty airbags like the US landers, simply wrapped the Beagle lander in whoopee cushions ... allowing it to bounce and fart its way across the martian landscape. However a crucial layer of sound insulating bubble wrap was left off in error, and too avoid total humiliation of the British people from this awful Monty Python-style soundtrack, the lander was destroyed on its first landing fart.

    --
    -- "It's not stalking if you're married!" My Wife.
  35. Failure? by FrostedWheat · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I wouldn't call Beagle 2 a failure. It didn't accomplish it's scientific goals but it proved that a small group of people with all the odds against them can produce a high quality spacecraft (and it was a high quality piece of kit, excluding perhaps the parachute) and get it to another world.

    And it did get to Mars! Sure, it landed much like a bowl of petunias falling from several miles would -- but the fact that it flew at all was the amazing thing. Keep an eye out for the BBC documentary on the whole mission to get an idea of what I mean.

    My message to the Beagle 2 team: It's difficult getting to Mars, and for your first attempt you did really well. Better luck next time!

    1. Re:Failure? by imsabbel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not to mention that the lander was only part of the mission, and the orbiting spacecraft seems to work rather well...

      --
      HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
    2. Re:Failure? by antientropic · · Score: 1

      And it did get to Mars! Sure, it landed much like a bowl of petunias falling from several miles would -- but the fact that it flew at all was the amazing thing.

      Except that the "flying to Mars" bit was an accomplishment of the Mars Express, not of the Beagle.

    3. Re:Failure? by FrostedWheat · · Score: 1

      I realise it hitchhiked there, by 'flew' I mean launched.

      And it did fly, vertically .. and briefly.

    4. Re:Failure? by nomadic · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't call Beagle 2 a failure. It didn't accomplish it's scientific goals

      In other words it...failed?

    5. Re:Failure? by DerekLyons · · Score: 1
      And it did get to Mars! Sure, it landed much like a bowl of petunias falling from several miles would -- but the fact that it flew at all was the amazing thing.
      Beagle 2 only got to Mars because someone else gave it a lift. It's not amazing at all that Beagle 2 got there, as it did none of the work getting there, and slept over 99% of the transit time.
    6. Re:Failure? by kwan3217 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Beagle 2 was a 100% failure. Nothing at all was learned from it. It sent back zero bits of science, and accomplished zero of its mission goals. It also returned zero bits of engineering data after it was released and switched from being a payload to an independent spacecraft. This means no one can even tell what went wrong.

      How can you tell that Beagle was high quality? Once it was released, how was Beagle distinguishable from an equivalent mass of bricks? How is it distinguishable from puting 30 million pound notes in a bag and dropping it from Mars Express?

      Basically all we learned is that that particular spacecraft team with that particular budget on that particular schedule cannot build a successful lander. Even then we cannot be sure, because Beagle may have just had bad luck. An identical spacecraft targeted a few meters away may have had a different result. We just don't know.

      Nothing was learned, nothing was gained. Everyone knew it was a high risk mission, and they crapped out. This doesn't mean they shouldn't try again, but don't try to sugarcoat it.

      --
      Lots of technical and environmental problems are solved by the application of vast amounts of nuclear power
    7. Re:Failure? by Jugalator · · Score: 1

      With its scientific goals -- yes. ;-)

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    8. Re:Failure? by sandrift · · Score: 1

      >How can you tell that Beagle was high quality? Once it was
      >released, how was Beagle distinguishable from an equivalent
      >mass of bricks? How is it distinguishable from puting 30
      >million pound notes in a bag and dropping it from Mars
      >Express?

      As a planetary scientist, I am infuriated by the media and the public constantly acting as though failed missions (be they NASA, ESA, etc.) are no different than "putting [sic] 30 million pound notes in a bag and dropping it from Mars Express".

      Only a small amount of the money that is spent is used for hardware. The vast majority of mission funds go into buying launch vehicles and most importantly, paying the salaries of the scientists, engineers, and programmers who bust their butts working overtime to make these missions happen. We are NOT sending gold bullion or banknotes into space. We are feeding and clothing and housing the families of working people who care about and believe deeply in space exploration. They spend that salary money in the world economy, of which we are all a part.

      NO ONE appreciates what has been lost when a mission fails more than the mission personnel do, and it's NOT money.

    9. Re:Failure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rubbish!

      We learnt at least one very important bit by what was not sent back - that it didn't work.

      This is not an ironic post.

  36. Release early, release often by Galik · · Score: 1

    Surely we should have sent another 4 of these things up to mars by now? Release early, release often. That ways we'd probably be getting loads of bug reports from the Martians.

    1. Re:Release early, release often by Mr2cents · · Score: 1

      The release dates are fixed. You only have a few weeks every 26 months.

      --
      "It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful." - Anton LaVey
    2. Re:Release early, release often by Galik · · Score: 1

      Then we obviously have to start sending these things out in batches. If you send one a day for every day of the 'window' thats 3 x 7 = 21 explorers per 26 months. That's nearly averaging one per month. And further if we send them all off on slightly different trajectories... well one of them is *bound* to hit mars!

  37. Altimeter problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I saw one of the beagle-2 flight spares last week. It was displayed and discussed at the university department where I work.

    One suggestion for the loss of the craft was that the barometric altimeter, which was to deploy the parachute, was fooled by an unseasonal sand storm in the Martian atmosphere. The altimeter had to trigger the chute quite late in the descent, and the low pressure associated with the storm may have inhibited the deployment until the craft hit the ground.

    Since Beagle had no engines, it couldn't go into parking orbit until the storm went away.

  38. Project Management by Asahi+Super+Dry · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Wouldn't surprise me at all if bad management led to the failure. I'd never grasped the value of good management until my current job, which lacks it. Not that I'm any kind of great programmer, but I always felt before that the burden of success was mine, 100%, when in fact it's a lot less than that. The people making the higher level decisions (resource/time allocation, features, scope, requirements) are the ones who can really fuck things up. Heh, that seems pretty trite now that I've typed it...

  39. Most Here Would by bruthasj · · Score: 1

    Pinpoint George Bush somehow.

  40. The British Research System by MROD · · Score: 5, Informative

    The problems decribed here are endemic to the way what little money is available for British scientific research is distributed.

    I work for the Earth Sciences department at Oxford University, one of the very best funded Universities in the UK, yet much of the time which should be spent on research by lecturers and postdoctural research staff is tied up with the beaurocracy of funding. Not only this but the funds available to keep the departments running, ie. the infrastructural costs, are going down year on year.

    I feel for Professor Pillinger. He did the best job of getting funding he could. It's highly unlikely that he would have be able to get more managerial help from anyone in the current circumstances and the only person who could have publicised the whole thing was himself.

    If the research council and funding bodies are anything like NERC, they only want research which already knows the results (ie. pointless) and is preferably one of the fashionable subjects (currently climate change and the environment).

    Please note that I am speaking on behalf of myself and not in any way on behalf of the University of Oxford or the Department of Earth Sciences. All of the opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of any group within the University of any policy thereof.

    --

    Agrajag: "Oh no, not again!"
  41. Re:Incomplete testing will always set you up to fa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny
    Especially since I doubt the mars atmospere resembles the weather in Great Britain.


    ...except in Dr. Who episodes...

  42. In other words they didn't thiink of it by bluGill · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If they had thought of testing the parachute before they would have considered the idea that it might fail, and planed for time to build one that works. There is no point in doing a test if you can't make use of the results. They wasted time and money pretending to test the system.

    Yes I understand there were time pressures. I don't know what they could have done differently to make it work.

  43. Re:Incomplete testing will always set you up to fa by LittleBigLui · · Score: 1
    Especially since I doubt the mars atmospere resembles the weather in Great Britain.
    100% Ack. If it did, nobody would want to fly up there, would they?
    --
    Free as in mason.
  44. Uhhh! by NetNinja · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    They used American units of measurement instead of metric ones?

  45. My theory by mark-t · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Is that the problem was caused be the absolutely bizarre perception that somehow releasing what was essentially a dead weight with absolutely no propulsion gear on board (due to mass constraints for this mission, as far as I am aware) to do things like minor course correction from several million miles above the surface of the planet would have anything but a practically infinitesmal chance of actually landing correctly. If Beagle2 had landed as intended, it would not have been due to good engineering or science, it would have been on account of absolutely spectacular luck - on the order of the kind of luck it would take to be hit by a large vehicle moving at highway speeds (and that hadn't started to slow down), and walk it off a few moments later, essentially merely having had the wind knocked out of you - ie, possible, but absolutely incredulous. Perhaps it is a good thing that this first attempt didn't succeed, as it will hopefully give them a better opportunity to examine fundamental errors in the design of the mission instead of being too hasty to blame it equipment malfunctions.

    At least they realize that tracking it during decent is something they should do from now on.

  46. I disagree by Rei · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I disagree, and it bothers me seing space agencies around the world trashed all the time. For example, NASA is a common punching bag for the Shuttle. Its predicted 18 million dollar launch cost, while looking great on paper, quickly swelled to 500 million per launch. Well, guess what? The Shuttle is pretty much par for the course. Almost all rocket programs have started out with grandiose dreams, and failed. Rocket launch costs, while fluctuating a lot, have remained relatively stable since the 1960s.

    I was debating with someone recently who kept insulting the shuttle, and referring to Ariane. I then showed the person how much of a disaster the Ariane program has been as well - Ariane 5 having three failures in 18 paid launches, the cost overruns driving their price up (not as high as the shuttle, but still not that great), the bailout of Arianespace, the cancellation of the ESC-B upper stage, etc. The person's response? They picked another rocket system to use as their champion, ignoring the fact that *it* had its own problems too.

    To make it worse, many of the people who trash space agencies treat ameteurs as if they're the ray of hope for the future. The ameteur rocket industry has been one failure after another, and has eaten enough dollars to fund some serious development at real space agencies. They're about to start getting their first major successes - and while they too have some very good people working for them, well, "Whoopee". When they've gotten several thousand designs into space hundreds or even thousands of times each, give me a call.

    We've had some truly brilliant people working at places like NASA, the ESA, etc., who have achieved incredible tasks. And while one may blame the management, guess what? Decisions have to be made. I heard someone the other day criticizing NASA for embarking on the Shuttle project and treating it as junk, while glorifying the never-made Sea Dragon. Well, how on earth was NASA supposed to predict that the Shuttle's costs would increase so dramatically due to technological problems not yet discovered? What makes one think that a rocket, "built like a ship", would have *less* technical problems? In fact, when SEALAR was built based on the Sea Dragon design, its performance figures were horribly downgraded and even still it ended up with serious structural failures that led to its cancellation. And the shuttle's costs aren't actually as bad, comparitively, as many people think - ~20,000$/kg, while the cheapest launches out there, using the latest tech, are ~10,000$/kg and are not man-capable.

    So give them a break, people. They're got some of the really intelligent people working very hard on an *incredibly* difficult task.

    --
    Musk needs a safer hobby than Twitter. Fire juggling? Cage fighting? Solo hot air balloon trips?
    1. Re:I disagree by DAldredge · · Score: 1

      And those 'truly brilliant' people at NASA kept their damn mouths shut about problems there. If a few of them how spoken out, perhaps the shuttles would still be flying. But they didn't, they thought their jobs were more important than doing the right thing.

    2. Re:I disagree by TrentTheWiseA · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The only problem with that is usually, you can do the right thing ONCE, and then you're out looking for another job. Whistleblower laws aren't truly effective enough to keep a determined supervisor from finding 'something' to terminate you over. If you're going to do the honorable thing, make sure it's the right honorable thing. You usually only get the chance to make the sacrifice once.

  47. Too many gizmos for a first probe by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Being that it was their first probe, perhaps they should have cut down on the number of gizmos so that they had money and weight to have better landing systems.

    Rather than include a dozen experiments, maybe just have 2 or 3. For example, just focus on detecting life instead of x-ray spectrometers etc.

  48. Gross Negligence by blair1q · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    These errors and management lapses are unconscionable.

    The European aerospace industry is still 40 years behind America's.

  49. That's just the lander by Solandri · · Score: 1
    Looking at the cost of just the lander for a Mars mission is like excluding the cost of travel from a vacation budget. The entire Mars Express mission (of which Beagle 2 was a part) cost about 300 million Euros. In contrast, Mars Pathfinder was only $265 million, with about $150 million spent on the lander and only $25 million on the rover.

    The primary reason Beagle 2 failed was because it was the ESA's first try at Mars. They will learn from it, and it will help them succeed in the future. The orbiter did just fine, which given the past track record of spacecraft sent to Mars is quite an accomplishment.