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A Different Take On PC Manus' 'Recycling' Schemes
Timex writes "Linux Devices is reporting that the COO of Linux startup Symbio Technologies, Roger Del Russo, claims that the recycling programs of Dell and HP are nothing more than a means of getting older systems out of use, to be replaced by newer systems. Mr Del Russo then makes the case for putting the older systems to good use as thin clients, using the Linux Terminal Server Project."
We use the LTSP at school, it makes working on the older computers (such as the ones in the library) not so unbearable. On the same note, must of the computers in my school are dual-boot w2k/red hat.
Hi there
Well, in Soviet Russia... wait, no, I refuse to make such a stupid comment... :) :)
Seriously though, this sounds like it might be a decent idea. There's nothing wrong with using old systems for something... how many people out there run their old 486DXs as firewalls or NATs, honestly? Probably quite a few...
And, if ANYthing can turn an old system into something new and useful, it would have to be Linux. For all the griping about it, it's far superior to any Microsoft product when it comes to custom built applications (not the program types, thats another story) for hardware... way to go!
Oh, and I think this MIGHT be a FP... not sure
[SQL Error ID 10-T: This sig. is above your current threshold.]
That sits on a curb for longer than an hour.
True, in the city they get tossed into dumpsters, but not before the IT people get first shot at them. I still have computers from before 1990. I'm sure some of the rest of us do too.
Every few weeks one of my employees is talking about their latest dumpster dive acquisition - a dual processor p2 box was a recent acquisition by one of them.
This guy might just have a point.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
Using old PCs as Linux stations is a great idea, but when you include the $699 licensing fee it can add up quickly.
Trolling is a art,
A former colleague of mine tells me there is now a skip in the loading bay, full of Dell desktop and laptop machines. These are going back to be "recycled".
They could have sold the laptops two or three times over, but these machines must go back to Dell because "they're 70% recyclable". As this chap pointed out, surely if they were sold they'd be 100% recyclable. Which does indeed beg the question, is recycling really the aim here?
Re your sig, that was the worst, most scatterbrained and poorly thought out questionnaire I have ever filled in.
Does anyone else read that article as "Hey! What they're doing is evil and they're just trying to get more money out of you, but...... We can SELL you a service that allows you to use your old boxes for other stuff!" ?
Gateway came out with a trade in program and if I remember correctly they didn't hide the fact they werer trying to get old systems out of use.
http://Lenny.com
Sure, you can use PINE or tin on an older PC without problems. Sure, you can try and shift the computing and processing burden away from the (thin) client. That, however, won't make the end users happy. They are accustomed to a certain level of usability, both regarding speed and user interface. People just plain don't want to deal with anything other - or less - than what they're used to.
So, whilst there are still applications for older systems as thin clients you're mostly limited to situations where your intended user base simply doesn't have a choice. As soon as they're paying for it or depending on your it for their daily work most people just won't accept being forced to use an old computer. They want their new, shiny PC and their sexy, modern LCD screen.
I say to "shaft" companies like Dell\HP start community projects to refurbish old PCs is good working order. You could install a simple Linux distribution such as Mandrake on them. Then, give them out to underprivileged children. Just a thought, would be quite an undertaking.
Hey.
Don't forget about charity; I volunteer for an organization that cleans up old PCs and gives them to needy families with children in school, and there are hundreds of organizations out there that do similar things. We won't take trash, but an old Pentium is often a fine system for word processing and basic web mojo, which is what most needy recipients would be doing.
If a corporation says it's doing something altruistically (open sourcing shit (MS), recycling PCs to "save the environment") it always has other interests to serve.
If that sounds cynical, I'm sorry. But it's true: corporations work for profit, and as far as I can see the only reason a corporation would want to recycle PCs is to get new ones out on the market. NO OTHER REASON.
By summer it was all gone...now shesmovedon. --
Recently, I set up a small Debian-based computer lab using LTSP at the school I attend. Currently, it only has the server and 5 thin clients, but it is astounding what can be done with this hardware:
Server: 800 MHz Pentium III, 1 GB SDRAM, dual 20 GB hard drives.
Thin Clients (all diskless and netbooting thanks to LTSP): 233 MHz Cyrix III with 64 MB RAM, 233 MHz Pentium II with 48 MB RAM, 333 MHz Celeron with 32 MB RAM, 300 MHz Pentium II with 64 MB RAM, 150 MHz Pentium MMX with 32 MB RAM (IIRC).
This setup can have 6 people (one on the server plus the thin clients) running Gaim + Mozilla + OpenOffice with very little slowdown. Rarely is it noticeable. And it is very easy to manage; since there is only one computer with Debian and all the data and whatnot on it, only one box has to be updated, had new users added, etc.
Total cost so far: $0, it is all just hardware out of my friend's basements and mine. The fact that no money has to be spent to get something like this to work (and work well) really shows that a new, shiny 2.4 GHz Pentium 4 is not needed just to check email and browse the web. The science department at this same school actually just recieved 24 new 3.2 GHz Dells, and the most that is ever done on them are Excel spreadsheets!
Imagine the money that can be saved by using old but completely useful computers instead of upgrading every couple of years when it is unneeded... (and spending more money on licenses for new versions of Office and Windows and etc.)
Of course they want you to upgrade, the question is what becomes of the old computers. My understanding is that the vast majority of computers donated are nearly worthless to schools because they cannot run any modern programs. These computers are only good as thin clients and most non-profits don't have a thin client setup. If his proposed arrangement takes off, NPO's could specifically say:Give us your old hardware. Until then, I'm glad OEM's are disposing of the systems properly (assuming they aren't just shipping them off to China or something).
Well, doh!
KFG
i reuse old pc's like crazy, too, for myself and for nonprofits i work with. but think of the number of damn new machines you're talking about -- recent pc industry growth reports suggested that ~100M of the new PCs shipping this year will be replacing old ones! it's just like recycling other materials: Reduce, Reuse, Recycle. The first word is Reduce for a reason -- it's the most important step, and the hardest to motivate people about.
n@
Uhm... that sounds kind of like X-Windows...
I've known at least 10 people who have started businesses around the idea of giving old PCs a new life. One of them, Roger Gross, started Icentrix ltd. (now defunct), that used to make "MarioNet" appliances (essentially old PC serving as X servers and web browsers, talking to a centralized box).
Most of these guys' companies either don't fare too well, or are kaput, because the idea is, well, obvious...
This is nothing new, IBM did this 100 years ago with type writters and POS machines. They bought out 2nd hand shops covertly, then priced stuff super cheap to kill competitors, but destroyed their own equipment. Then they shut the stores down and then using that customer list of 2nd hand buyers, go out and use their sales force teams to sell new machines.
A great scam.
But one that MS cant do, they cant just 'get rid of' old OS's, or can they? using viruss hmmmmm maybe they have covert coding teams making or 'releasing' exploits so that old 95/98 machines are hacked to death.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
> the recycling programs of Dell and HP are nothing
> more than a means of getting older systems out of
> use, to be replaced by newer systems
Exactly what did he expect these recycling programs are for? Of course they're primarily a means to sell new systems!
If a company has a bunch of HP/Dell PCs that are about to reach their end-of-life, they can either arrange the disposal themselves or give them back to the vendor to dispose of. Many companies will offer the PCs to their employees for a very low cost, and some of these employees will take them, put Linux on them and give them to charity. Maybe the company has someone on staff that acts as a focal point for charitable distribution of these PCs (as well as new stuff); if so, that person may take on the role of coordinating that sort of work.
***If this is "all too hard" for the company, and they just want to get rid of the old PCs without being accused of screwing up the environment by dumping them somewhere***, they're free to give them back to Dell/HP who'll dispose of them. Some companies see this as a useful thing; they've got a problem (disposal of a bunch of PCs without screwing the environment) and Dell/PC will take care of the problem for them. That's called a "competitive advantage".
Here's news: there's no fleet of people at Dell/HP who call up every charity in the world trying to dispose of old PCs 24x7! There may be a few people who take the role on themselves, but there's no way a few people can dispose of thousands of old PCs on an ongoing basis in their spare time.
It's *not* trivial to donate these PCs; among other things, either they have to arrange for MS to transfer the OS licence to some unknown recipient (unlikely), or they have to arrange a workforce to format discs, install e.g. Linux on them and then train whoever it is these PCs are going to be given to. Strangely, neither Dell or HP feel it is their role to act as unpaid Linux trainers for the world's underprivileged! Finally, if a charity receives a free PC from Dell/HP, there's at least an implied support arrangement there - when that old clunker of a PC breaks down, who's gonna get called?
If Slashdot or any other organization wants to form a group of people who will take these PCs, reformat them, install Linux, donate them to the world's charities and provide support afterwards, I'm sure Dell and HP would be very happy to hear about it. After all, that group would then be solving a problem Dell and HP have - how to dispose of the PCs. Do that; the world will benefit from it and probably vendors other than Dell and HP will want to jump on board too. If not, then find something real to complain about.
you are an idiot, your questionaire has little grounding in the social sciences, as for the second amendment you forgot this part:
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state...
Which does indeed beg the question, [some question]
Did you really have to say "indeed" when using the phrase incorrectly?
It is indeed ironic. (Get it?)
Actually, it's textbook example after textbook example of the classic strawman fallacy.
With respect to the US, I'd say universal health care is much more a human right worth fighting for than the ability to possess a deadly weapon.
Only on Slashdot could recycling be spun as evil. Do you guys think it is better to throw PCs into landfills? Of course you don't except if the program is sponsored by a profitable corporation then it must be bad. Check the responses to this same article on OSNews: http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=7120 The readers there immediately saw this story for what it really is - "A sales pitch".
Writing from an LTSP 133 Mhz 32 RAM terminal that acts like a P4!
:)
:)
You can visit the irc channel to talk about it
I translated the latest install doc to
spanish and I love LTSPing
At ITShare SA take donated hardware, install Linux, and donate to low income groups and individuals....We have sister organisations all over Australia tooo, doing the same. We would LOVE to get donations from Dell & HP of all these stockpiled computers - we are always desperate for hardware. No licencing issues! Ongoing supports for recipients! Win Win!!!
Nothing - well thats something.
.... putting a lightweight efficient multitasking OS on it like Amiga Research Operating System
Thats exactly what happens with microsoft. They release a patch for a potential sercurity problem, a smal percentage of users apply it, then virus writers read the security buliten that microsoft releases along with the patch and creates a virus that exploits the majority of the computers that haven't been patched. I've always know that it works that way, but I never realised that it can be used as a sales tactic. Ingenious.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
I'm not going to go posting a link here and bring the Slashdot effect down on my own company, but we started a buyback program in March (long before we knew about Dell and HP's plans - maybe they stole them from us!) for exactly this reason - get the old stuff away from the users and replace it with newer hardware. For us, the aging Pentium and Pentium 2 systems, most of which are still running Windows 95 or 98, are a support nightmare. The systems are not under warranty any longer, components are no longer available through distribution, and we don't have time to be searching ebay looking for a used 266MHz CPU. Besides, our customers tend to look at us funny when the bill ends up showing 4-5 hours of labor because of the cost involved in finding and obtaining old components. It's just not worth being in that market when a quality business class machine runs just under $1000 US.
As for thin client, it's a solution some of our customers like. However, it doesn't resolve the old hardware issue. Instead, it actually adds to the problem be extending the life of systems that were never designed to last more than 3-5 years. In the past week we have had a customer complain that their last 200MHz machine just died, another client complained that their last machine with ISA slots died and now they can't use their first gen ATI AIW ISA card, and we had a call from a client that couldn't figure out how to get their new (USB only) printer working with their 6 or 7 year old desktop (with no USB).
Supporting this old stuff for the SMB (small/mid-sized business) clients is a nightmare. We spend a lot of time convincing customers to "recycle" about 1/3 of their PC hardware per year so that all of their hardware is covered under warranty and so we can support the most recent Windows operating systems and applications throughout their organizations. Having part of the office on Windows XP, part on Windows NT 4, and part on Windows 95, and half under warranty and half not covered under warranty just increases support and management costs.
Is currently being used as a closet-based mailserver. Just about any box can handle an MTA and SpamAssassin.
At the Property Disposition here in Ann Arbor, they've got hundreds of half-decent computers for $100-$250 each.
My ancient laptop sits beside my chair in the livingroom. My very fast server sits in the basement. It runs almost all my programs and I haven't found anything that I can't run remotely. (Are you defining a thin client as something that can't run an X windows server? ie. am I missing some assumption about a thin client?)
Admittedly I'm not a gamer and I suppose there must be applications where 100 MHz ethernet would be a bottleneck but it hasn't affected me.
From a user's point of view, running a thin client is indistinguishable from running the same programs locally on a much faster machine.
new life is nice and all, until this starts to happen.
What?
grow up kiddie, ms is not what this thread is about now, IS IT!
your bashing ms shows some real imaturity
shame slashdot is a haven for childish linux noobs...
karma, hah...
If you want to try out thin clients, you should really have a look at Skolelinux. Though aimed at schools, it would be ideal in many business settings (e.g. call centers).
Dell sponsored a big recycling day in the Invesco (Broncos) parking lot last summer. At least two of my acquaintances hauled vanloads of dead-dead-dead monitors down there and cherry picked all the laptops and PIII minitowers back into their vans. The worker bees were happy to let them do it, until someone with a clue figured out what was going on. They beat a hasty retreat as security bore down on them!
I think many people think that many older machines can't run newer Windows versions.
Actually, you can still run Windows 2000 Professional, given that the minimum requirement to run W2K Pro is a Pentium 133 MHz CPU. Given that there are a lot of machines out there with the ATX form factor that use the Intel 440LX and 440BX chipsets with at least a Pentium II 233 MHz CPU, you can set up for them to run W2K Pro with at least 256 MB of RAM installed (most of the 440LX/440BX chipset mobos can support three 168-in DIMM's for at least 384 MB of RAM) and a 16 to 20 GB hard drive.
I myself run W2K Pro on an Abit AB-BM6 440BX chipset motherboard with a Celeron "A" 500 MHz CPU; W2K Pro runs pretty decently fast, notably bacause I have 384 MB of system RAM installed.
In my humble opinion, if your computing needs are primarily business apps and accessing the Internet, you really don't need the fastest machine out there. It's only when you have to play the latest games or run programs to edit digital still pictures or videos downloaded from a MiniDV/MicroDV digital camcorder that you really do need a machine with a faster CPU.
The computer of my boss (the head of a small company that isn't afraid to spend money on computers) is a 600MHz Pentium III that came with NT4. It now dual boots into linux and has more memory (cheap), a good video card (v. cheap), more disk space - and now in most cases it appears to give an instant reponse to what is asked for it. About the only things that make the machine show its age is Open Office - which is even slower to start than win4lin plus a fairly old MSOffice, but once it has started going it works well. It's not about being a cheapskate, the machine does what it needs to do, and I put four new dual 2.8GHz Xeon servers in that office yesterday, which are doing some of the real work while the desktop machine is working as an Xterm displaying what thirteen other machines can do to some data over a weekend.
Not enough years back the only hardware I had to use was a pentium 90 with a pitiful amount of memory and a crap video card, but it was surpisingly effective with linux, Xfree86 and a lean enlightenment theme on it, so long as I ran the actual applications (from netscape up) on an SGI machine in the next building. The major failing of that machine was a lack of OpenGL support - a new video card would have fixed that easily and the machine could be used even today, so long as you only have a budget of just above zero. If there's something nice on the network, and things are set up properly, you can get away with all kinds of old hardware.
To sum up, even if you are not worried about spending the cash, you don't always need an incredible 3D games machine on your desk at work - and your machine that is getting a few years old may not slow you down at all.
There's a dfference between the two though. I have the right to "bear" a gun. But I have to pay for the gun myself. The right to bear arms does not entitle me to go take one from somebody else. Rights must be free. There is already a "right" to health care. You have the right to make whatever health care arrangements you want for your family, but, and here's the key, you have to pay for them. What you are talking about is an entitlement, which goes beyond just a right. When someone says "I have a right to health care", what they more often than not mean is "I want someone else to pay for my health care" but they realize that that statement would be greeted with appropriate scorn. If you want the government to pay for everybody's health care (and consequently have access to everybody's health records) then you certainly can, but call it what it is - an entitlement.
Jonathan B.
..that I could use now to teach basic computer skills to at-risk kids here (Rio de Janeiro, Brazil). I have a friiend visiting the US next month who could bring a few back. I have Portuguese Win98 licenses for them which will do what we want (486s would be fine).
This is of course primarily a sales tool but it is an unsual one because in many eco-friendly localities it costs between $25-$100 to dispose of a machine (buy sticker to attach to discarded box/monitor).
Personally I have been wiping the drives and sending the boxes to goodwill since none of the schools want anything less than a 2Ghz box with WinXP and Office XP at least at goodwill the boxes have a chance of finding a good home.
However for many people and companies the recycling programs are the only cost effective way for people to safely get old systems off the premises without incurring fines.
I also know of several businesses which buy the computers returned to HP/Dell and part them out and sell the spares to service companies worldwide.
This is of course an opportunity for O/S advocates to buy these machines and put them back into service or alternatively create a program like the Lions Club has done with eyeglasses to give people an alternative recycler.
No kidding, eh? And we complain about Slashdot polls having a lack of options... No leading questions in that piece of NRA propaganda, was there?
Thats the cool thing about slashdot, you never know who you are talking to. If you don't understnad my post for what it is, I'm not going to explain it for you. Slashdot is a lot like an inkblot test. If you want to see evidence in every post of a grand conspiracy against microsoft, I suppose you probely can, but in doing so you reveal more about yourself than the you do about the author's original intent.
If this were a serious message board or mail list, I would have gone into depth seting up a position and supporting it with various pieces of evidence, but this is slashdot. I realy just don't care. But apprently I care enough to explain how I deal with slashdot after soemone replys with a terse acuatorial response. Ah the enigma that is Bill, Shooter of Bul.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
They can have my dead monitors and printers,
there's no way to fix or reuse these.
Although I do rip out the motors from the printers for robot projects.
They also get all my old AT boat-anchor systems.
If it doesnt have PCI,it's not worth fooling with.
Starman97@Gmail.com (bring it on spammers)
Is it just me, or does this not appear to just be a similar ploy, perhaps one even not more transparent? Even if they do provide solutions based on LTSP, their business is selling commercial software and providing service and support. Recyling old PCs is just a trick to get people to buy new PCs? Well, duh! And a car could easily last 20 years, get 75 MPG and require almost new service over those years, but that is not what capitalism demands.
Similarily, these whiners are also just drumming up their own business.
The vast majority of computer owners- especially people who buy their machines from HP or Dell- are not interested in starting up a little thin client computer lab in their basement. And most of them also do not donate their computers to schools. And hell, most schools do not have thin client networks. Thin client setups still have not quite gotten to the point where they beat the regular networked destop setup in TCO.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
Have you considered they mean "I am prepared to help fund everyone else's health care because they are also funding mine" ?
Did anyone else catch Penn & Tellers show on Showtime regarding the Recycling industry and how bad recycling is for the environment? As someone who knows people who used to work in the paper recycling business, DON'T RECYCLE YOUR PAPER!!!
Penn & Teller: Recycling is Garbage!
Where I work (a mid-sized/large company), there is an abundance of old Pentium 133/166 machines that were in use up until March. There are hundreds of them, but only 3 or 4 different models. While the older systems are a support nightmare for you, it's the newer systems that cause us more difficulty.
I can ghost an old pentium machine in 10/15 minutes and have the user up and running again. If we get a new Pentium 4 machine though, Windows 2000 or XP has to be installed manually on it, drivers updated, windows updated, and software installed. This can take HOURS to do.
Believe it or not, I have had more of the newer DELL machines fail due to bad hard drives than I have ever had any of the old pentium 133s fail for ANY reason. They are built to last, and they have!
HEH, just last week we replaced the only machine in the company that still had a 5.25" floppy drive.
u r teh wr1tz!!11 lol
No, I haven't. If that was what they mean, then why don't they say that? If that was the case, why don't those people start their own charitable organization, or something like it, to finance people's health care? I would have no objection to that whatsoever. In fact I encourage it, because that would help alleviate the problem and would give the government less reason to "step in" and politicians to "save the day". Do you really think the people you hear protesting about this really want to just help? If so then they should stop talking and do. Let's not kid ourselves - rich people pay the great majority of taxes and what "universal health care" would be is making rich people pay the rest of our health care costs. That is the truth behind it. I just get tired of people thinking up cutesey slogans to call it something other than what it is. "I have a right to want the government to take money from another person to pay my health care costs" - that's what it really is.
For a group that is concerned about privacy, I'm always surprised I don't hear more objection when this subject comes up. Just think, the government having all your health care records.
"Activists may protest, but it's the visionaries who actually make the change"
Jonathan B.
does he suddenly appear screaming "KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN " ?
got. to. love. the...overacting.
the whole deal with Y2k was a move by major oem's and software companies like Microsoft to use the deep-seeded ancient fear of the new millenium to scare people into dumping their 486's, 386's, 286's, etc for nice brand new systems that costed even more than the usual price because they were y2k compliant with the latest windows, etc..
:4 for 2004.
simply a move to get people to buy new stuff so people get a big profit.
my neighbor down the street gave me an old 386, and they said "watch out though, it's not y2k compliant, that's why we got a new one!" went into the bios, it went past the year 2000..
only thing that didnt work right was the software, windows 3.1, which would show
that's your y2k bug, folks.
Yes, sent them back to be ground up. Why are they so upset about people refilling them huh?
We will fight to the last man. We will fight them on the notice-boards. We will fight them wherever they speak, wherever they appear, and we shall prevail.
Maybe for the same reason some people say "I have a right to own guns" when they really mean "I've got a fetish for killing devices" ?
If that was the case, why don't those people start their own charitable organization, or something like it, to finance people's health care?
They did, it's called the Government.
In fact I encourage it, because that would help alleviate the problem and would give the government less reason to "step in" and politicians to "save the day".
See, I already live in a country with an excellent public health system that includes both "universal health care" *and* a privatised system that allows people who want to pay for extra and/or better care to get it.
So from that perspective, I don't see where this great fear of "the government stepping in" comes from. I'm not feeling even remotely oppressed by our health system.
If so then they should stop talking and do. Let's not kid ourselves - rich people pay the great majority of taxes and what "universal health care" would be is making rich people pay the rest of our health care costs.
Of course, it's largely the behaviour of said people and the corporations they run that make the health care so damn expensive in the first place.
I just get tired of people thinking up cutesey slogans to call it something other than what it is. "I have a right to want the government to take money from another person to pay my health care costs" - that's what it really is.
It's no different to any other form of insurance - simply acknowledging the fact that circumstances have made the costs too high for individuals to bear, so those costs must be spread over a larger group of people.
For a group that is concerned about privacy, I'm always surprised I don't hear more objection when this subject comes up. Just think, the government having all your health care records.
I'm not quite sure I see the connection between universal health care and the government having all my medical records.
Please go and shoot yourself in the foot.
Of course the X Window System is used, the apps run on the "terminal server" and the client is solely there for display purposes.
Just like you know from SUN Ray (except there the displaying and managing Xserver also runs on the terminal server).
And that was moderated insightful?
Oh, you mean insurance?
You got a problem with my fetish for killing devices? What are you some kinda' commie?
Jonathan B.
How does this detract from the argument on the web site? Note: Its not my site its by a guy named Oleg Volk.
Learn lisp today!
"And the past"
So true! I describe the 80's and 90's to people as a bout of binge drinking the industry went through. Now it's emerging from the back allies it passed out in (and got robbed in) squinting at the light of day and woundering what the heck happend.
Kind Regards
"A few great minds are enough to endow humanity with monstrous power, but a few great hearts are not enough to make us w
go into politics, you evade the issue you created by bashing MS and explain nothing, while attempting to sound superior.
/. not being a serious new site, you are right on the nose there. It is far from a serious news site anymore. Most of the news is reported on other worthy sites, long before anyone on slashdot decides to paste a link to it.
As far as
karma, hah...
Twat.
There are three R's in earth friendly stweardship.
They are:
Reduce - don't use what you don't need.
Reuse - If at all possible, reuse.
Recycle - Recycle what you can't reuse.
All three have their place. Reduction of use has the greatest impact followed by reuse, and finally recycle which is in essence the last alternitive but is still better than throw away.
Something like the terminal project is better than recycling by an entire order of magnitude. Having said that however, sometimes equipment gets so outdated it is no longer good for much of anything at all. Nobody has much use for an XT or 286 anymore and they deserve to be recycled becuase aside from very limited uses, they are too old to be much good.