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Microsoft Behind $12M Opera Settlement

An anonymous reader writes "According to CNET it has been confirmed that Microsoft is behind the $12 million dollar payment to Opera (speculated earlier here). The payment was to avoid legal action over interoperability issues with Opera's web browser and Microsoft's MSN portal. On at least three separate occasions, Opera has accused Microsoft of deliberately breaking interoperability between its MSN Web portal and various versions of the Opera browser--charges that the software giant has repeatedly denied."

87 of 331 comments (clear)

  1. Follows the trend by lachlan76 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is starting to happen a lot lately. Microsoft is having money taken, because they try to push the little guys around.
    Hopefully they'll learn from this mistake. Probably not, if an AU$800 Million fine from the EU isn't enough to change their business practices, nothing will.

    1. Re:Follows the trend by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      This all comes out of petty cash for them. They chalk it up as a cost of doing business. If it really bugs ya, don't use any of their buggy, security-hole-laden POS software.

    2. Re:Follows the trend by senzafine · · Score: 2, Funny

      This all comes out of petty cash for them.

      I wonder if their petty cash vault is larger than their "in case we get sued" vault.

      --
      Better than Flickr - Manage, Share, Archive
    3. Re:Follows the trend by adesm · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Eight Hundred Million Australian Dollars fine? Gadzooks, have even the EUrocrats given up all faith in the stumble-bum of international currencies?

      But seriously folks, the Fine which has been levied has only been done at an early stage, despite some of the premature celebrations. Microsoft will appeal, there will be massive depositions and written submissions etc. and the matter will hang around the EU's 'ahem' Competition Authority like a pair of concrete shoes for a few years.

      Finally, after $SUITABLE years have elapsed, the European Council of Ministers, probably Employment Council or some such, will reduce the Fine to some EUR10m or thereabouts, after a closed-door unreportable meeting - following years of extensive lobbying of the Governments in question by Microsoft. That's how things are done in Europe, secretly, without public consultation or justification. See the recent whitewashing of the EU parliament's vote in relation to software patents as an example.

    4. Re:Follows the trend by eyeye · · Score: 2, Funny

      Why did the EU fine them in australian dollars?

      To rub it in by making them go to the Bureau D'change?

      --
      Bush and Blair ate my sig!
    5. Re:Follows the trend by southpolesammy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, it's been said before, but they're not getting beat down here....they're settling all their open litigation. I'm not sure to what end this is progressing towards, but something tells me that Microsoft themselves is trying to clear all open cases against them so that they can gear up for something big.

      I just can't put my finger on what they're up to...

      --
      Rule #1 -- Politics always trumps technology.
    6. Re:Follows the trend by lachlan76 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Because I live in Australia, and my lack of sleep stops me from converting currency automatically. 800 Million Australian is abut 550 Million Euros

    7. Re:Follows the trend by lachlan76 · · Score: 2, Funny

      We can fix that - Everyone must have at least 10 hours of linux experience to be allowed to use the internet. No-one will go back after 1 hour, but let's make sure. Let's see how well Microsoft can gear up when Linux owns both the server *AND* desktop market.

  2. Good... by WIAKywbfatw · · Score: 5, Interesting

    At least the one company that truly stands for browser innovation will have some more cash to spend on product development. Pity it's just a drop in the ocean to Microsoft though.

    --

    "Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
    1. Re:Good... by Dionysus · · Score: 4, Informative

      what innovation?
      tabed browsing, opera.
      gesturing, opera.

      --
      Je ne parle pas francais.
    2. Re:Good... by acebone · · Score: 2, Insightful

      OK - I don't know when it was introduced in Mozilla and you may be right, I thought it was the other way around.

      Re: 3rd parties - I mean the extension system of Mozilla, Opera hasn't got anything like that. Pie menus is an extension - it was made by a 3rd party.

      --
      Check out my PHP Url Validator
  3. Opera: Bork Edition! by thesolo · · Score: 5, Informative
    After one of the first times Microsoft broke MSN for Opera, Opera released a Bork Edition of their browser.
    "The Bork edition behaves differently on one Web site: MSN. Users accessing the MSN site will see the page transformed into the language of the famous Swedish Chef from the Muppet Show: Bork, Bork, Bork!"

    Microsoft was purposely serving up broken style sheets for Opera; changing the user agent to something other that Opera would cause MSN to render correctly. For more on that, see the Opera article Why doesn't MSN work with Opera?
  4. The worst part is IE development has stalled. by Max+Romantschuk · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Microsoft business practices aside, I really, really hate the fact that IE development is at a standstill. Microsoft has said they won't release a new IE until Longhorn.

    Meanwhile we have to kiss web standards goodbye to please 90% of the public using IE.

    Amusingly there's a work-around under development called IE7, mentioned on Slashdot a while back.

    But the fact is Microsoft is keeping us from adopting things like CSS2, PNG and SVG more than anything else.

    --
    .: Max Romantschuk :: http://max.romantschuk.fi/
    1. Re:The worst part is IE development has stalled. by October_30th · · Score: 3, Insightful
      But the fact is Microsoft is keeping us from adopting things like CSS2, PNG and SVG more than anything else.

      Uh. How is Microsoft keeping us from adopting those things?

      If people felt that SVG, for instance, is necessary, then they'd download a browser that supports it. Standard HTML, JPGs and PDF download for documents. That's all we need.

      --
      The owls are not what they seem
    2. Re:The worst part is IE development has stalled. by The-Bus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The worst part? I think it's good news. If this is really true it gives Firefox a long time to catch up (market share wise). I've been using it for a couple of months and can't help but recommend it to everyone I know. It's a lot more stable, the tabbing system is wonderful, and you've got these customizable UIs that people used to using AOL IM and WinAmp should love.

      --

      Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.

    3. Re:The worst part is IE development has stalled. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Meanwhile we have to kiss web standards goodbye to please 90% of the public using IE.

      It's not that bad. You don't have to write non-standard code to get things to work in Internet Explorer, you just have to make sure you avoid the bits of the standards that are just plain bust or nonexistent in Internet Explorer. So basically, they are holding us back in a massive way, but not forcing us to violate standards.

      But the fact is Microsoft is keeping us from adopting things like CSS2, PNG and SVG more than anything else.

      Some parts of CSS 2 work in Internet Explorer. Most of PNG works in Internet Explorer (just the alpha channel is broken, and there are limited workarounds). SVG isn't supported in the normal builds of Mozilla, Konquerer, Safari or Opera, so you can't really blame Microsoft for not supporting it either.

    4. Re:The worst part is IE development has stalled. by Max+Romantschuk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Uh. How is Microsoft keeping us from adopting those things?

      If people felt that SVG, for instance, is necessary, then they'd download a browser that supports it. Standard HTML, JPGs and PDF download for documents. That's all we need.


      Not true. You assume people are intelligent, able to install things, and interested in doing so in the first place.

      The average person is not that intelligent. I'm not saying the average person is stupid, but never the less. It's rather improbable that the average person has the skills or the motivation to hunt for the correct tool.

      Furthermore, many people browse at public libraries or similar places where installing software isn't an option.

      Add to that the fact that most people are quite lazy. If the page looks weird they just forget about browsing the site and go somewhere else.

      If Microsoft actually continued to add standard compliant technology to their browser we'd have a situation where we could actually adopt new technologies at a sensible rate. As it is now this is hardly the case.

      As for HTML, JPEGs and PDF's being all we need... you really haven't done much in terms of real world web design have you? Sure, you'll get the information across, but that just won't cut it in the current market (this claim is naturally not without exceptions.)

      --
      .: Max Romantschuk :: http://max.romantschuk.fi/
    5. Re:The worst part is IE development has stalled. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This stuff, as a web developer, makes me kinda cranky. It's like, wee! i can do all kinds of fancy stuff (not fancy as in bloat, fancy as in streamlined and shiny) but hangon... looks like it won't work in ie... okay cut it all out since 90% clients are in ie. it's just another depressing factor in a loveless job...

    6. Re:The worst part is IE development has stalled. by garcia · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But the fact is Microsoft is keeping us from adopting things like CSS2, PNG and SVG more than anything else.

      I haven't noticed a need for CSS2 and PNG but SVG comes via a plugin. I don't see why you think that MS should support it natively.

      How many websites out there use it? Only one that I use regularly and it's not exactly something that 99.9% of others will use.

      Should MS be forced to integrate Flash into the browser just because some websites use it (you would all go fucking ballistic if they took Shockwave over to do so)?

    7. Re:The worst part is IE development has stalled. by sfe_software · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not true. You assume people are intelligent, able to install things, and interested in doing so in the first place.

      I agree with all but the intelligent part. It's not that people aren't intelligent, it's more that they have little or no interest in learning that much about computers. For those of us where computers are a large part of our lives and/or careers, these things seem obvious, just like a doctor might think some complex medical procedure is obvious...

      It's rather improbable that the average person has the skills or the motivation to hunt for the correct tool.

      That's a much better spin on it that I can agree with fully. Just remember, skills != intelligence. Nor does lack of motivation imply lack of intelligence; lack of interest perhaps...

      Add to that the fact that most people are quite lazy. If the page looks weird they just forget about browsing the site and go somewhere else.

      I do that myself, but in my case most times the page was designed for IE exclusively or requires flash, whereas I use Mozilla w/o the flash plugin. These days I find much less rendering problems, either because sites are more compliant (doubtful) or because Mozilla and IE interpret buggy/incomplete code in similar ways...

      If Microsoft actually continued to add standard compliant technology to their browser we'd have a situation where we could actually adopt new technologies at a sensible rate. As it is now this is hardly the case.

      Agreed fully. IE has, in my opinion, stagnated since version 5 or so, and no major feature enhancements (that I would use anyway) since 4.0. I forget which version implemented Microsoft's idea of CSS2 support, but in any case it's still not complete. Plus it lacks so many useful features that most other browsers have (disallowing unrequested popups, tabbed interface, etc)...

      As for HTML, JPEGs and PDF's being all we need... you really haven't done much in terms of real world web design have you? Sure, you'll get the information across, but that just won't cut it in the current market (this claim is naturally not without exceptions.)

      Standard and simple technologies are sufficient for many purposes, but in general I agree that we shouldn't be stuck with 1998 technologies. I like knowing that I can use certain advanced features, but in more than one case I've had to pull a cool CSS trick out of a page after finding out that IE doesn't support it (or doesn't support it properly). Often the work-around is to re-implement it using JavaScript, which isn't worth the effort IMO.

      Just look at the new features we've gained over the last five years (that are actually being used). Then look at the five years prior to that (1994 to 1999) and you'll notice that things have stagnated around the time IE became stagnant. Granted we're still seeing many technologies becoming more widely used (eg, CSS), but only because the market generally has to catch up. By the time we get anything new (at the mercy of Microsoft most likely), we'll see actual development stagnate for a while, while we wait for the new tech to mature, and for there to be enough users with a newer browser...

      At least that's my opinion, based on observation... however I do feel that HTML/CSS is currently pretty darned flexible if you learn the right tricks; it could be worse (it's not like we're stuck with plain ASCII text).

      In summary, I fully agree with you and wanted to comment on a few points, and to point out that I don't feel that it's lack of intelligence, but rather specific knowledge that many users don't care to know (nor should they have to, ideally). Computers are tools to most people...

      I do believe you used intelligence unintentionally to mean knowledge, as the other points in your post seem to agree.

      Oh, and I hate PDF. More specifically, the idea (portability) is great, they print nice, but I cannot stand the Acrobat viewer (I wonder if there's another Windows viewer out there somewhere...)

      (I really should get to bed soon; I noticed I'm rambling quite a bit here...)

      --
      NGWave - Fast Sound Editor for Windows
    8. Re:The worst part is IE development has stalled. by Ender+Ryan · · Score: 3, Interesting
      I haven't noticed a need for CSS2 and PNG

      Then you are a complete idiot and have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.

      Proper CSS2 allows at least 75% bandwidth savings serving up html, quicker rendering, easy user customizability, nicer / easier degradation, separation of content and design, etc. PNG would actually make the web much prettier, give more freedom to artists, save bandwidth in many ways, etc.

      Should MS be forced to integrate Flash into the browser just because some websites use it (you would all go fucking ballistic if they took Shockwave over to do so)?

      Are you insane? Why would MS need to "take Shockwave over" to do that, and what do you even mean by that? And isn't Flash usually already installed on most new machines anyway? What has that got to do with anything!?

      --
      Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
    9. Re:The worst part is IE development has stalled. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Informative
      I haven't noticed a need for CSS2 and PNG but SVG comes via a plugin. I don't see why you think that MS should support it natively.

      CSS2 makes web design a whole lot easier. You can properly separate content and presentation. Have the content generated in semantic markup by a script and then just change the CSS when you need to change the presentation.

      PNG is a nice lossless image format. It is more flexible than GIF and is not encumbered by patents (The GIF patent is still valid in some countries). In a browser that properly supports it, PNG allows a full alpha channel, which makes it possible to do some very nice effects.

      One of the best things about SVG is that it's XML, and so is part of you pages DOM. You can put the SVG directly into XHTML, and even control it from Javascript (or any other scripting mechanism that supports DOM). This makes it an incredibly flexible tool. If you render SVG using the Adobe plugin then the SVG content does not appear within the DOM tree.

      How many websites out there use it? Only one that I use regularly and it's not exactly something that 99.9% of others will use.

      No, most websites don't use it because if they did then IE users would not be able to view their site.

      Should MS be forced to integrate Flash into the browser just because some websites use it (you would all go fucking ballistic if they took Shockwave over to do so)?

      No. Flash is proprietary. CSS2 and SVG, however, are W3C standards and should be supported by any browser.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    10. Re:The worst part is IE development has stalled. by black+mariah · · Score: 2, Insightful

      FUcking Christ in a blender I'm tired of this stuck-up, self-aggrandizing, masturbatory horseshit.

      People are not stupid. They just don't fucking care. Most people have a life that exists beyond their monitor. As long as they can check their email and go to the few sites they frequent, THEY DON'T FUCKING CARE WHAT THEY ARE USING. They don't give a fuck about standards, they don't give a fuck about MS being 'evil', they don't give a fuck about any of this stupid fucking bullshit you moronic fucking geek.

      If people are too stupid to install shit, then how the fuck do you think Flash got so popular? Hey, that's right! When they go to a site that uses it and they don't have it, THEY FUCKING INSTALL IT.

      Since you're too damn biased to notice, IE isn't the only non-standards compliant browser out there. In fact, I'm not sure there is a SINGLE browser that is fully standards compliant.

      On a slightly different note, when did PDF go from being the devil to being accepted? I thought PDF was horrible because... like... it was made by Adobe and stuff... and they're bad. Or something. *COUGH*

      Meh, whatever.

      --
      'Standards' in computing only impress those who are impressed by things like 'standards'.
  5. Microsoft Sends Broken Stylesheets to Opera by Tribbin · · Score: 5, Informative

    To fresh up your mind:
    Here

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  6. Re:This would appear to be... by fuzzix · · Score: 5, Insightful
    What's $12M to a company with billions and billions of cash?
    Not much, but it means quite a bit to Opera I would wager. If you were to view this settlement as an admission of guilt (a safe assumption in this case?) this means more than the $12M to both parties.
  7. So, they got their come-upence.. by robslimo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    For a small company like Opera, the settlement is significant, I'd imagine. Not only did they get their main beef settled, they get a little cash infusion to boot.

    But these snippets from the article

    The deal marks the latest in a string of settlements from Microsoft, which is seeking to simplify its business by clearing up potentially damaging legal claims.

    and

    Microsoft has effectively abandoned significant browser development efforts.

    make me wonder, what has Microsoft got up its collective sleeve? They cornered the browser market and now they'll give it up without a fight? Why should they make an effort to clean up their legal image when it didn't seem to phase them for such a long time?

    I don't doubt that whatever they've got planned, history indicates it's probably part of a well thought out business or marketing plan. Other thoughts?

    1. Re:So, they got their come-upence.. by EnglishTim · · Score: 2, Interesting

      They will be completely integrating the browser with the operating system. If I understand it correctly, their 'Avalon' project will join the split between web and native applications. This means that applications written for this new version of Windows will look and feel exactly the same regardless of whether they are running on your local machine, or being run from a 'web server', or some mixture of the two.

      That's where they're concentrating their energy, and the system is likely to be so intertwined with Windows APIs that it'll be very difficult to get anything running on another platform.

    2. Re:So, they got their come-upence.. by zeugma-amp · · Score: 4, Insightful

      make me wonder, what has Microsoft got up its collective sleeve? (Other than continued 'integration' with their operating systems.) They cornered the browser market and now they'll give it up without a fight? Why should they make an effort to clean up their legal image when it didn't seem to phase them for such a long time?

      They don't have anything up their sleeves. Microsoft saw Netscape (and other browsers in general) as a threat because of the hype surrounding concepts of the 'browser being the platform'. They feared (rightly) that if true system independence were to come about due to people using a browser as their portal to software, that their windows monopoly would be threatened in some way.

      When microsoft sees a threat, no matter how small to it's cash cow of windows, it reacts violently. Now that they feel (again probably rightly) that browsers are not a threat to them, they won't waste a moment of a programmer's time to fix IE defects because they understand that it no longer matters. The majority of uninformed users will continue to use IE no matter how ancient and clunky it gets compared to other browsers out there because the vast majority don't have any idea that Mozilla or Opera even exist, much less how massively superior to microsoft's offerings they are.

      --
      This is an ex-parrot!
  8. Microsoft Settling More Often by Bill+Dimm · · Score: 4, Informative

    As this article in BusinessWeek points out, Microsoft is trying to settle and partner rather than fight in court.

  9. Not a good thing? by Monoman · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Settlements like this should not be kept secret. Even more so when publicly held companies are involved ... and fo damn sure when one of the companies has been found guilty of predatory practices.

    Maybe MS's sentence should have included banning them from private deals and settlements.

    --
    Keep the Classic Slashdot.
  10. Windows Update by Ann+Elk · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Does this mean that Mozilla can now sue Microsoft because Windows Update only works with IE >= 5? When I try to access Windows Update using Mozilla 1.6, I get the following:

    You need to be running a version of Internet Explorer 5 or higher in order to use Windows Update.

    Download the latest version of Internet Explorer

    Once Internet Explorer is installed, you can go to the Windows Update site by typing http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com into the address bar of Internet Explorer.

    If you prefer to use a different Web browser, updates to Windows may be downloaded from the Microsoft Download Center.

    I suppose the last sentence is some concession to those of us who run non-IE browsers. However, the Microsoft Download Center won't tell you which updates you need. Apparently, only Windows Update can do that...

    1. Re:Windows Update by MoonBuggy · · Score: 5, Informative

      No, that's a different thing entirely. Windows Update uses ActiveX controls to work out what you need and those are only compatible with IE, as I'm sure you know. There's no legal precident saying they must rewrite code if another browser doesn't support it.

      What they did to Opera was deliberately send broken code in order to make it appear that the browser was faulty. The code sent to IE worked fine in Opera but MS went out of their way to alter that code when sending it to Opera. If you went to MSN using a IE5 browser agent string in Opera it would've worked fine. If you went to Windows Update using that same browser agent string in Mozilla you wouldn't get an error but I very much doubt that the site would work.

    2. Re:Windows Update by peragrin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's because Windows Update uses those "security holes" in IE to pass the required information back and forth. Can you imagine MS accendently publishing a patch that broke Windows update by fixing a security hole in IE. How long would we laugh?

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
  11. It is unfortunate.... by tiger99 · · Score: 2, Interesting
    .... that Opera did not persue this one through the cours, as it would have alerted the courts to the fact that the Criminal Monopoly is continuing to ignore earlier judgments. That is contempt of court.

    Nothing short of criminal prosecution, and jail sentences for Gates, Ballmer and a few others, will ever make these guys behave properly. They have a consistent track record.

  12. Reinvent a company by octal666 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The question now is this money is enough, if not for Microsoft to be punished, at least for Opera to repair the damage done.

    Is 12M$ enough money for a company like Opera to reinvent themselves?

    With the IE as the widespread browser, and with that money to take a break, IMHO Opera should think about opening other branches, maybe give a try to open source solutions.

    --
    DON'T PANIC
  13. Re:This is why we hatessss them by DrEldarion · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Innocent until proven guilty, remember?

    Just because they settled doesn't mean they're guilty. They most likely just decided that it would be cheaper to settle than fight it. Settlements ALWAYS includes a "this isn't an admission of guilt" clause.

  14. And this is a suprise to anyone at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    MS is having to pay out all the time. They always have since their inception. Can anyone count the number of settlements that have gone against MS? (Read, MS paid out) relative to the number that have favored MS?

    I'm happy for Opera, but this really is just business as usual for MS.

    Nice job US DOJ, you really reined them in.

  15. Re:This is why we hatessss them by torpor · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So David is really responsible for the rampages of Golliath, eh?

    Opera accepting the money has nothing to do with Microsofts shady business practices. WTF?

    By your reasoning, a woman is as guilty as a rapist for the rape committed ... eh? This makes no sense.

    A $12million settlement, which is a punishment for having done something wrong, followed by well-propagated news on the reasons for this punishment, is the only safeguard this industry has from future shadiness of this nature... you saying that "Opera are 'as responsible'" for this is just ludicrous, and underlines a serious lack of understanding of the nature of responsibility ...

    Microsoft attempted to weild un-defeatable might in an attempt to squeeze competition out of the marketplace, and 'get rid of a company that is clearly annoying them', and the justice system caught this, and ruled for the little guy, as it should, punishing Golliath all the while.

    Go Opera! If I wasn't so satisfied with Safari, I'd switch ... but thank you anyway, U.S. Justice System, for ensuring that my rights as a consumer, and my ability to weild choice are protected in the browser marketplace ...

    --
    ; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
  16. The new business model by EaterOfDog · · Score: 5, Funny

    1 Write good software
    2 Wait for MIcrosoft to steal it or disable it
    3 Profit!

    --

    Crushing my karma one post at a time.
  17. Re:This is why we hatessss them by the_mad_poster · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What, you think they wouldn't if they could? They were beaten to the punch on all the worthwhile patents. The only reason they don't run around slapping people with patent infringement claims is that they know they're on shaky ground in that department, and that's probably one weak spot that Microsoft couldn't throw enough money at to become an industry leader in.

    --
    Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
  18. Scuse me? by KamuSan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If I borrow and crash your car and I kill a horse (or something), and I have to repay you the worth of the car, and you accept my money, you also accept that you are responsible for crashing the car? That's nice, then you can help me repaying the cost of the horse.

  19. Re:This is why we hatessss them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    yeah, but the story is bullshit. For one, Microsoft have not admitted liability, they have just settled out of court

    A little Norwegian company which poses no threat to Microsoft, and in fact builds it business on Microsoft products (Windows) claims they have targeted them. It's a non-story. On one occasion all non-IE browsers were locked out of MSN. This was quickly reversed, and certainly wasn't targeted at Opera.

    On another occasion an incompetent programmer worked around a bug with margins on UL (instead of setting margin: 0 to give lists no margin, you had to do -30px to reset the default 30px margin to 0) - but the bug wasn't actually present in Opera, so the text was overlapping.

    The stupid conspiracy theorists claim that the programmer who wrote the style sheet was somehow acting on company policy to 'get Opera'. I call bullshit on that. Microsoft is a big company - and even in my small company, my manager doesn't direct how I write my style sheets. I mean for fuck's sake! A simple coding error is treated as a big conspiracy.

    Here's what Wikipedia says on the whole story:

    In October 2001, the MSN web page was changed to lock out most non-Microsoft browsers, shortly after the launch of Windows XP and Internet Explorer 6. According to initial statements by Microsoft, this was because other browsers did not support XHTML correctly, and users should therefore upgrade to its own Internet Explorer. This issue also affected other browsers in similar ways. Microsoft backed down after being confronted with proof showing that, if anything, other browsers were better at rendering XHTML than Internet Explorer.

    In February 2003, Opera Software employees discovered that the MSN home page sent a different style sheet to Opera users than it sent to Internet Explorer. The style sheet sent to Opera users, a generic 'site.css', contained the style rule ul {margin: -2px 0px 0px -30px;}, which created a 30-pixel negative left margin, causing content to appear overlapping other content. The Internet Explorer style sheet did not contain this rule.

    This gave the impression something was wrong with Opera. The Netscape 6 style sheet also specified the same -30px margin, to work around known bugs in that browser (bugs not present in Opera). This same code was present into the supposedly generic style sheet, which was served to Opera by a Javascript checking routine which specifically detected Opera. This was either a deliberate decision by a programmer to make Opera look bad, or was simply the action of someone who was aware of Opera's existence, but unaware of its CSS capabilities (which are in fact better than those of Internet Explorer), and hence chose to send the browser a generic (albeit badly coded) style sheet.

    PS. Don't forget, for Microsoft it's quicker to pay $10 million and get them to go away than to even investigate. Lawyers are expensive, and if you think in every case settled 'justice' was done, you are incredibly naive.

  20. You leave out certain important facts... by hkmwbz · · Score: 2, Interesting
    You forget to mention that this isn't just one episode. This is something which has happened several times, and one Microsoft exec even started talking about "Opera's lack of standards compliance", claiming that it didn't support XHTML, CSS, and so on.

    If this is really Microsoft, why does everyone assume that this is about a single episode with a single site, rather than a pattern, when MS has been doing this for a long time? Or just the fact that a Microsoft spokesperson used the media to spread several blatant lies about Opera (the alleged lack of XHTML support, as well as other things)?

    The comment you are linking to isn't really relevant since Microsoft haven't done this kind of thing against Opera only once. They have done it several times, and have also been spreading lies about Opera.

    Maybe you should keep that in mind before jumping to conclusions.

    --
    Clever signature text goes here.
  21. Legal != moral by KamuSan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Alas....

    Patenting the hell out of everything is hardly moral and just as childish.

  22. Re:This is why we hatessss them by ScottGant · · Score: 4, Informative

    If they settle, they're guilty. Thats how the public sees it and in truth that's the way I see it.

    So what that there is a clause in there. If they pay money out, then they have something to hide, and they're only paying it off so when they lose in court, it will be MUCH more than the payoff. So yes, it would be cheaper than being found guilty.

    If they WERE right, they could take it all the way to court knowing that they would win...and then having the other side pay the court costs. MS didn't do this, they knew they were wrong and GUILTY so they decided to pay their way out...again.

    --

    "Music is everybody's possession. It's only publishers who think that people own it." - John Lennon.
  23. Misleading article quoting "mystery source". by hkmwbz · · Score: 4, Informative
    I am not impressed by the quality of CNET's journalism. Here's what they have to say about why they state this as fact, instead of using language like "it looks like" or "we have reason to believe":
    "a source indicated that the payment came from Microsoft in order to close the books on a clash over obscure interoperability problems"
    I couldn't find any information about who this "source" is supposed to be in the article. So they are basically portraying someone's assumptions as fact. Bad journalism.

    But this is not the only case of bad journalism. Another example:

    "Opera is looking to move past the PC to distribute its Web browser on devices such as cell phones and personal digital assistants
    This is just wrong. Opera isn't just "looking to move past the PC". They have been doing this for years. Just a quick look on opera.com shows press releases about this back in 2000. In 2001, the Sharp Zaurus had Opera on it.

    Now, I am not saying that it cannot possibly be Microsoft. It probably is. But this is pure speculation, and CNET is portraying it as fact. And they seem to focus on one single site, rather than the on-going problems with Opera and Microsoft sites due to browser sniffing and singling out Opera, and Microsoft's blatant lies about Opera in the press.

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  24. For those who RTFA... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting
    "IE's dominance has also created fallout for Web standards, because Microsoft delivers the Web to roughly nine out of every 10 people who use it.


    Let me put it this way: Eh?
    Does this imply that for 1 out of 10 IE doesn't deliver content? Well, not that I'd wonder about that. It's M$ software after all...
  25. Continue Anyway by denlin · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Shutterfly, the online photo store backed by Netscape co-founder Jim Clark, does not support any version of Opera or Mozilla browsers, according to a warning displayed on the site this week.

    this is one of my gripes about some websites. i noticed shutterfly has a "Click Next if you wish to skip future warnings and use Shutterfly with this unsupported browser." great, i can make the choice to puruse a sub-"standard" website if i still want to. sometimes i think they forget that they are offering goods/services that i can find somewhere else.

    --
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  26. Re:Why would M$ care. by eggoeater · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think you have the logic backwards. They care who is using their browser so MUCH that they were willing to give it away. They care so MUCH that they included the browser with the OS.
    The more people who use their browser, the more people they can influence/control how they browse the web.

  27. Not confirmed... by d3bruts1d · · Score: 4, Funny
    Last I checked, it had not been confirmed that MS is the one who paid the money to Opera Software. Bust since I read it on the internet, it must be true.
    "Reached by phone, Opera executives refused to name the company involved in the settlement or describe the nature of the legal claims, citing a confidentiality agreement."
  28. maybe it was to kill Opera's cell/PDA browser? by johnpaul191 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    tinfoil hat alert!

    yes, IE is quite secure in M$-windows desktop/laptop browser dominance. besides Opera there are a few other browsers for computers...... but the cell phone/PDA market is still up in the air. M$ has their own OS for cell phones and PDAs, and if they can show people that Opera's offerings for devices doesn't work so well, it may help their case. Add to the fact that EVERY Verizon DSL customer is now considered an MSN subscriber their numbers are growing (on paper).

    maybe i'm wrong, but unless it's something personal i would think Mozilla is still a bigger threat to IE than Opera in the PC realm. I would guess this is for some emerging market.... being cellphone/PDAs or some other embedded devices (cable boxes or whatever?).

  29. Re:Opera's finances? by Brummund · · Score: 4, Informative
    If you'd cared to investigate your spyware claim, you'd find that Opera has a strict privacy policy, and that they stick to it.

    Excerpt from Opera's privacy policy.

    Opera Software has taken much care in the development so that user privacy and security are not compromised. No personal information is collected or shared, and providing ad profile information in the browser is strictly optional. The Opera user's Web usage is not tracked. What is recorded and shared with the advertising service provider is the user's interaction with the relative banner advertising.
    In fact, Opera is an exemplary company, and even allows their developers to interact and answer questions on USENET and other forums. I've been a registered user of Opera for some time now, and I've always been amazed by their level of customer support and service.

    I'm not sure what you mean by a sensible business model. It is possible to BUY the product, as well as using a free version (with advertising). I guess "sensible business model" according to some regulars here mean "Give it away for free, and buy lots of lottery tickets or hope some investor will bail you out", but that model actually stopped working 4 years ago.

    Opera actually makes money.

  30. Just get your facts straight! by hkmwbz · · Score: 4, Informative
    This is not about blackmail, but about a series of conflicts between Microsoft and Opera, as well as direct lies from a Microsoft spokesperson in the media. Yes, it is fine to block browsers if you want to. But that isn't what Microsoft does. Microsoft keeps detecting that you are using Opera (even when identified as something else) and sending broken code to it. This hasn't happened just once, but several times. A few times with MSN.com, and now lately, MSNBC.com looked bad in Opera because Opera got broken code, while all other browsers got code that actually worked.

    What MS is doing is not fine. They are detecting that you are using Opera and making Opera look bad by serving it bad code. It is not "perfectly legit" at all.

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  31. Answer IBM, HP and all the others by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 2, Insightful
    There is just a tiny little problem and that is all the others have patents too.

    You fell prey to one of life's classic blunders. The most famous is, 'Don't get involved in a land war in Asia. Slightly less well known is Don't get involved in patent pissing contest with IBM when money is on the line'.

    Look up if you have time a recent setback for MS were they were told to remove the clause from their contracts that stops their OEM's from enforcing their patents against MS.

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    1. Re:Answer IBM, HP and all the others by nigel_atkinson · · Score: 3, Funny

      I spent the last few years building up immunity to technology patents. (groan)

  32. Re:Just don't visit MSN with Opera. by cpghost · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What about accessibility laws? Do they apply only to government agencies, or can private/commercial websites be liable for gratuitously locking out a portion of the user population?

    --
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  33. Favoritism? by Kragg · · Score: 2, Funny

    IE's dominance has also created fallout for Web standards, because Microsoft delivers the Web to roughly nine out of every 10 people who use it.

    I wonder what it delivers to the other 1 in 10?

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  34. Only on the PC by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 2, Insightful
    On the mobile phone Opera is a very real player. In fact that is where opera makes it money. Not from PC browsers (wich most people pirate anyway) but from licenses sold to phone makers.

    Just try one of the non-ms "modern" phones. Shouldn't be too hard. Most are non-ms. All the nokia ones I seen had an opera browser.

    This is something MS doesn't like. It has tried everything it could outside murder to get a foothold in the mobile phone market without success. PDA's are slightly more succesfull but its old reputation of rebooting is really hurting it from the customer perspective. PDA's and certainly PC's we are used to being bugged but we expect or mobile phones to be like our land line phones. Just working.

    From the phone makers perspective MS reputation of screwing everyone makes them very determined not to rely on MS software.

    So in yes opera is a real threat. If ever that vision where the Mobile phone will be the main computer everyone uses and not the PC then people might also suddenly see that an OS doesn't have to be rebooted and that browser do exist that just bloody work.

    So opera is a real threat. So why did MS settle? Even Bill Gates must be learning from all the legal problems MS is having. Sure 12 million is nothing to MS but it ain't 12 million. It is 12 million to opera, 600 million to the EU, close to a billion to various american states, lots of other legal cases being settled all the tune of millions, the case against lindows wich is not going all that well. Each individual case will not be enough but put them all together and MS is losing some real money while gaining nothing.

    And each and every case only shows MS as the evil company. Not good.

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  35. Re:Just don't visit MSN with Opera. by mortenalver · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You don't know what you are talking about. MSN was sending broken pages to Opera, while Opera was perfectly capable of displaying the pages served when it identified itself as IE.

  36. Re:Opera's finances? by Brummund · · Score: 2, Informative

    You have two options in the free version of Opera:

    A) Relevant text ads, using Google Adsense. Google needs to know which site you're visiting.
    B) Generic banner ads.

    How to select ad model:

    1. In Opera, go to File/Preferences/Advertising.
    2. Put one hand on the top of your head.
    3. If the fingers on the hand mentioned in instruction 2 can feel the presence of tinfoil, select ad model B
    4. If not, choose model A

  37. Re:This is why we hatessss them by hkmwbz · · Score: 4, Informative
    "A little Norwegian company which poses no threat to Microsoft"
    Except the fact that Pocket IE is a very bad browser, and Opera is getting big on mobile devices, a market Microsoft is trying to gain a stronger foothold in.

    As for your comments about conspiracy theories, this isn't just something which has happened once. Opera has been specifically detected and served broken code on several occasions on MSN.com, and lately on MSNBC.com. In addition to this, a Microsoft spokesperson lied about Opera to the media.

    You are criticizing others for assuming too much, yet you don't even bother to inform yourself on the matter.

    This isn't just one case of a bad style sheet on MSN. This is something which has repeated itself over and over.

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  38. Re:This is why we hatessss them by morgajel · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You know what they say, 'the proof is in the puding' or something...

    compelling evidence

    I don't use Opera, but I've seen this firsthand.
    I also remember a while back where they flat out blocked mozilla from MSN, but the bad public backlash made them reverse it. I actually tried that one for myself and saw that it was real.

    Innocent Until Proven Guilty is nice, but lets face it- we've tried that. they've broke the system countless times. they've keep saying "we'll change, honest. I'll never hit you again" and we keep falling for it like an abused wife.

    MS won't stop until we actually PUNISH them... perhaps a $20 billion fine would help?
    that might knock some sense into them. and for each breach afterwards, another $1 billion fine.
    not in software- they'ed just spend $.01 in CD's and ship a couple thousand versions of their latest and greatest OS.

    Someone needs to call shananigans on these bastards.
    Honestly, I wish Opera didn't have to settle. Theoretically, they could win the case, but by the time they won, $12 million woulda been pocket change for a hobo.

    This is probably one of my greatest pet peeves with Micosoft. They fricken abuse the system.
    They're just not trustworthy.

    Innocent until proven guilty is nice, but how long are we going to wait to finally punish them for the things we KNOW they did wrong?

    (sorry, don't take that as a personal attack, I just get worked up over MS).

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  39. Compare to Be, Inc. settlement by That's+Unpossible! · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What really sickens me is Opera gets almost half the settlement that Be, Inc. got (about $25 million).

    Now compare the two offenses. Screwing up a few Microsoft webpages for Opera users, vs. destroying a company with anti-trust tactics, such as squashing deals between Be and other OEM's (see: Hitachi)... Christ I could go on, but it's too depressing. Long live MacOS and PalmOS NG.

    --
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  40. Buy a nokia, wich browser does it have? by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Opera re-invent themselve? Why? They are doing fine. The PC is a sideline to them. Basically they are supplying a browser for every platform out there. Something no other browser is capable off.

    Their money comes from bulk licenses sold to phone makers and similar. Not from consumer licenses.

    Sure it would be nice if opera was a real contender on the PC market but how do you compete with a free product when quality is something only tiny percentage of customers understand? Even mozilla and its offspring is having a hardtime and they are free.

    Also if you run multipl OS'es, having one single browser between them is awfully handy. I can't tell you how much more I swear at IE now that it is refusing to listen to my mouse movements whenever I am on a non-opera machine.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

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  41. They are going to purchase.... by gosand · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Actually, it's been said before, but they're not getting beat down here....they're settling all their open litigation. I'm not sure to what end this is progressing towards, but something tells me that Microsoft themselves is trying to clear all open cases against them so that they can gear up for something big. I just can't put my finger on what they're up to...

    If I had to venture a guess - they're going to buy a big media company. The only business that has more control than MS in their respective field is the entertainment industry. Once you have more money than you know what to do with, what do you go after? Controlling information. MS lost with controlling the internet, so they are going to go for the popular media.

    --

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  42. Re:Opera's finances? by timmyf2371 · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Will this $12 million mean Opera can get rid of the spyware that seems to be incorperated into the free version of their browser and move to a more sensible business model?

    I see no problems with their current pricing structure:

    "Don't want to pay for our software? You can view ads as an alternative."
    "Don't like adverts? Pay a low fee if you like the software."

    Really, what is your problem in paying for software you like to use if you don't want to view adverts?

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  43. Re:This is why we hatessss them by microbox · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The Opera crowd repeatedly asked the MSN crowd to fix the style sheet. The style sheet used for IE worked fine with Opera. The correction involved less work than this post. Say what you want about M$'s motives, but if I were Opera I'd sue too.

    --

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  44. More info: The actual lies from Microsoft. by hkmwbz · · Score: 2, Informative
    Bob Visse from Microsoft claimed that Opera does not support XHTML:
    "We do identify the string from the browser, and the only issue that we have is that the Opera browser doesn't support the latest XHTML standard," said Visse. "So we do suggest to those users that they go download a browser that does support the latest standards."

    Opera obviously does support XHTML, and issued a press release in XHTML which points out Microsoft's lie.

    This and other lies from Microsoft are exposed in an Opera press release.

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  45. Additional information... by hkmwbz · · Score: 3, Informative
    --
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  46. Re:This is why we hatessss them by southpolesammy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But the key is that there's no legal record of them being told they were wrong, nor any admittance of guilt. In essence, this protects them from setting precedent that can be used against them in a subsequent case for much larger damages.

    It doesn't matter to the court whether the public opinion thinks they're guilty or not. And the only weapon the public has against actions like this is to not use the company's products, and we don't see that happening at all now, do we?

    --
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  47. Re:This is why we hatessss them by Arker · · Score: 4, Informative

    Umm no. Your facts are simply incorrect.

    Opera was being sent a different style sheet, as well as a different html file, than IE or Netscape. This style sheet was not a generic one for non-IE browsers, as was verified to by using wget with a faked user-agent field. There were three style sheets, one for Netscape only, one for Opera only, and one for all other browsers. So Opera was definately specifically targetted with this. And the files sent to Opera contained commands to force them to layout improperly, whereas the generic files sent to IE and unknown browsers displayed just fine in Opera.

    You can see screenshots and a detailed explanation of what was happening here.

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  48. Re:This is why we hatessss them by The+Spoonman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    which is a punishment for having done something wrong

    No, it's not. It's a method of avoiding a lengthy trial. It's not an admission of guilt by any stretch of the imagination. Many companies settle because it's cheaper to do so than go to trial. My old employer would pretty much settle automatically on any lawsuit that was for under $20,000 because it would cost that much to just get their lawyers geared up. It's a relatively prudent business decision...do we pay $100,000 in order to avoid spending $20,000? MS made the same decsion..."It's impossible to prove we DIDN'T do something (the basis of all conspiracy theories), so do we spend millions and millions in court costs and negative advertising on a trial, or do we just give them $12M to go away?"

    thank you anyway, U.S. Justice System, for ensuring that my rights as a consumer, and my ability to weild choice are protected in the browser marketplace

    You really need to get a clue on how the justice system works before you start praising it. This is the biggest FLAW in the justice system. In order to stop these frivlous lawsuits, the law needs to change to protect corporations and individuals from them. Something along the lines of "If you bring suit, and lose, you're responsible for all the defendant's court and legal fees as well as punitive damages equal to thrice that amount" should do the trick. Then, companies like Opera will stop bringing suits against larger companies like Microsoft in the hopes of getting a settlement. They know MS will settle, they don't have to be right, or prove it in court. It's an easy $12M influx.

    In this instance, Opera is the evil corporation manipulating the system for its own gain.

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  49. Re:This is why we hatessss them by hkmwbz · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You mean apart from the fact that MSN is used by millions upon millions of people, and that when they discover that it works fine in Internet Explorer but not in Opera, it gives the impression that it is Opera which doesn't work properly?

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  50. Re:This is why we hatessss them by Geoff-with-a-G · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There's some problems with your legal reasoning. Opera and Microsoft sat down together and agreed on the settlement. If it was some sort of foregone conclusion that Microsoft was going to lose big, then Opera wouldn't have agreed.

    You can't just assume that any kind of court proceeding will find the ultimate truth of the matter. If you've followed many of the major IP law cases in the last couple years, you'd see that the outcomes are seldom easily predictable. Some judges don't understand the technology, sometimes the laws involved are outdated and difficult to map onto the situation at hand, and sometimes the laws seem to outright conflict with each other (DMCA vs. Fair Use). As a big company going into one of these cases, you won't get a certain victory or certain loss; you're lucky if you can get a fairly accurate guess at the odds.

    That's where the settlement starts. If you're talking about a judgement of 20 million, and both sides think they've got a 50-50 shot, then they can settle on 10 million. If the plantiff thinks they've only got a 10 percent shot (which would be the case even if the defendent was pretty clearly in the right) then they'll happily settle for 3 million.

    So maybe Microsoft was guilty here, maybe they weren't. All the settlement tells you is that the chance of them being found guilty and the size of the settlement were large enough that they were willing to spend 12 million to avoid it, and small enough that Opera was willing to accept only 12 million to give it up.

    As to "paying their way out", it was a civil suit, not a criminal trial. "Paying their way out" was what would have happened if they HAD been found at fault. It's a company, its purpose is to make money. Paying a fine IS defeat. It's not like this is a murderer who's getting out of the death penalty by paying his way out.

  51. Hotmail by AlecC · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Hotmail now works in Opera, which it didn't before. Surprise, surprise.

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  52. Re:This is why we hatessss them by Diplo · · Score: 2, Informative
    A little Norwegian company which poses no threat to Microsoft, and in fact builds it business on Microsoft products (Windows)

    Firstly Opera are a major player in the fast-growing mobile browser sector. They are in partnership with some of the biggest manufacturers, such as Nokia, IBM, Sony Ericsson, Kyocera, Sharp and Psion. Opera's small-screen rendering technology is far more advanced than anything Microsoft have, and they know it. Opera are also a powerful voice on the W3C committee (it was an Opera employee who came up with the idea of CSS) and are committed to web standards.

    As well as offering true cross-platform support (LINUX, Mac, Windows, Solaris, OS/2, Symbian) Opera is also far more feature rich than anything Microsoft have. If you think Opera aren't a potential threat to Microsoft then you are incredibly naive.

  53. Hush money by quisph · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Opera has accused Microsoft of deliberately breaking interoperability between its MSN Web portal and various versions of the Opera browser--charges that the software giant has repeatedly denied.
    And now they can go on denying it forever. $12.75 million settlement == hush money.

    Thanks for taking the easy way out, Opera. Maybe I'll give Mozilla a try.

  54. Re:This is why we hatessss them by ckaminski · · Score: 3, Insightful

    $12 million dollars sure seems a lot more like hush money than simple "stop annoying me and go away" money.

    For $12 million, if Microsoft were in the right, they'd have squashed Opera.

  55. Re:This is why we hatessss them by Geoff-with-a-G · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Innocent until proven guilty is nice, but how long are we going to wait to finally punish them for the things we KNOW they did wrong?

    Actually, "innocent until proven guilty" is for criminal trials, not civil suits. It's referred to as the "burden of proof", and it's different for different things. For some stuff, you simply must prove that it is "more likely than not" that the defendent did something wrong. For others, you have to prove it "beyond a reasonable doubt".

    As for punishing them for things you "know" they did wrong, the difference is between the things that a judge knows they did wrong, and the things that you "know" they did wrong. I personally consider this a good thing, but if you have a problem with it, you should run for judge. See if enough of your voting peers agree with your fitness to render verdicts.

    Having read only the link that you sent me, I personally believe there's a decent chance (say, 40-50%) that Microsoft broke the CSS intentionally. And you only made it up to 40-50% because I was including other experiences, like their having blocked Mozilla. If you treat the evidence on only its own merits, (which a judge should do) then maybe 20-30% chance that Microsoft intentionally broke it. I can definitely envision someone at MSN deciding that Opera is big enough to warrant their own file, then just doing a crappy job with it.

    Or put another way, never attribute to malice what is easily explainable by incompetence.


  56. Re:This is why we hatessss them by hkmwbz · · Score: 3, Insightful
    "Opera is getting money, but that's all they're gettting"
    Not exactly. Opera gets a lot of press (free PR) from this one. And they all but said that it was Microsoft. It was not a partner or customer, and the settlement wouldn't affect future revenue sources at all. It was not a trademark or patent issue... They gave a lot of details what it was not about. So clearly, that limits the possibilities.

    It sounds like it is a competitor, and Microsoft matches that, at least in the mobile market. And who else would be willing to pay just like that to make a problem go away? Who could afford it?

    So Opera is getting away just fine. It gets lots of press, and everyone assumes that it's Microsoft, even though, strictly speaking, Opera stuck to the deal and didn't reveal the company.

    The rumor that it is Microsoft has not been officially confirmed, but if you put two and two together, MS is the most likely candidate.

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  57. Re:This is why we hatessss them by emptor · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The problem with an across-the-board loser pays system, as you propose, is that there are many cases where the plaintiff has a good-faith belief that it has been wronged and therefore brings suit. This plaintiff shouldn't be deterred from bringing a justifiable suit by the penalty of treble cost damages. After all, let's say I invent some new, unobvious technique (and get my patent) that MS then incorporates into their product. I sue MS for infringement, but they, with all their money and lawyers, either litigate me out of business or use their might to sway a judge/jury. All of a sudden I'm looking at potential millions of costs.

    Your proposal, IMO, would simply deter poor companies/individuals from suing.

  58. monopoly money by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 3, Insightful

    $12M is big money for Opera, but small money for M$. So of course M$ will do it again, probably even to Opera. That turns Opera's business model into extortion, and keeps M$ a monopoly.

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  59. Re:This is why we hatessss them by hkmwbz · · Score: 3, Insightful
    GMail doesn't make Opera look bad on purpose, by serving it a special style sheet designed to break it. It says up-front that Opera might not work. I may not like it (actually, I think it sucks really bad), but it is Google's right to choose to do so. They are being up-front about it, which is a good thing. So GMail cannot be compared to Microsoft's actions at all.

    I am sure you, too understand why Microsoft gets crap for making other browsers look bad on purpose. To quote another post of mine:

    "You mean apart from the fact that MSN is used by millions upon millions of people, and that when they discover that it works fine in Internet Explorer but not in Opera, it gives the impression that it is Opera which doesn't work properly?"
    Your examples aren't quite the same as Microsoft's actions against Opera. Not only is Microsoft serving bad code specifically to Opera, but they are lying about Opera to the press as well.
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  60. Two Words... by Landaras · · Score: 2, Informative

    I just can't put my finger on what they're up to...

    I have two words to answer your question.

    Software Patents

    A few more words...

    Eben Moglen spoke at Harvard in February regarding not just SCO, but the future direction of the IT industry at large.

    He said that today the battle is over copyright. In five years the battle will be over software patents. And in ten years the battle will shift to that of bandwidth. Of ensuring that everyone has access to bandwidth as easily as they do electricity, so that all may share in the information that is available.

    My dates may be slightly off, but you can see the coming progression of battlefields.

    Microsoft engages in illegal and immoral behavior. But they are not stupid. They are preparing for the next war, which will be software patents.

    The transcript of Eben Moglen's speech can be viewed here from Groklaw and the video of his speech can be viewed here from Harvard. (Sorry, it's in Real Media format)

    If you haven't seen that speech, you should. To call it enlightening is to do it a disservice.

    - Neil Wehneman

    P.S. I realize I use battle and war imagery a lot in this post, but quite frankly I believe the stakes are that high. Imagine if the printing press revolution had fallen to the entrenched interests of the day. We are now in the same situation, only with digital information.

  61. Fsck you Gill Bates. by rice_burners_suck · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Heh... Microsoft pays $12M to avoid a lawsuit? They know that their legal department could push anyone around for any length of time. Why, then, would they pay out instead of going to court? I think the answer is that they know it would be extremely easy for Opera to prove its claims (which are true, by the way, I use Opera and I know that a lot of Microsoft's pages break under Opera--they ID the browser and then the HTML sent, if you're using Opera, contains tags to screw up the page, so users will think that Opera is not a good browser, when in fact, it's the opposite--Opera ROCKS and Internet Exploder is a piece of dog poop... besides, this is Microsoft's oldest trick in the book, kind of like making Windows 3.1 crash intermittently if you're using DR-DOS, when in fact there was no technical reason that this should happen). So Microsoft is paying out because they know they will lose this one, and not only will they pay, they'll probably end up paying more, not to mention the legal costs.

    Opera. Because friends don't let friends use Internet Explorer. Or Windows. Or anything else that comes from Redmond.

    (Did I mention Opera works equally well on Windows, Linux, FreeBSD, and Mac OS? It's a great piece of software. That's why I keep paying $40 (or however much it is) to put it on every computer I have, and I install the "free" (ad) version on every computer I set up for my friends and co-workers. And don't say you don't like the million billion toolbars it has. Just turn them all off and you've got a nice clean browser that renders all pages.)

  62. Microsoft freeing up its legal team by Anonym0us+Cow+Herd · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Microsoft is freeing up its legal team for the upcomming patent wars. They don't want their legal team tied up in pointless and counterproductive litigation which does not have the effect of destroying open source.

    At one time, it was worth fighting companies like Opera. Bleed their cash. Steal their ideas. Sabatoge their product, etc.

    But now, it is much higher priority for the legal team to be ready for the new patent wars.

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    The price of freedom is eternal litigation.
  63. Time to think and get informed before posting. by hkmwbz · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Opera's bringing in more and more money from their browser products. How exactly is this "a questionable business model"?

    And based on the fact that revenues are increasing rapidly, how can you even think about claiming that Opera relies on lawsuits for revenue.

    Fact: Opera makes enough money just by selling a browser. Anyone who has followed the company and read a few interviews with the CEO knows that you are talking out of your ass.

    Also, this has been discussed before. I guess I shouldn't even mention the fact that Microsoft was spreading lies about Opera through the media, should I?

    Man, try to inform yourself before shooting your mouth off like that.

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