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Area 51 Hackers Map Buried Surveillance Network
advair writes "There's a story on SecurityFocus about a pair of Area 51 'hackers' who discovered a buried network of wireless motion sensors on the public land surrounding the "operating location near Groom Lake, Nevada." Using a frequency counter and a GPS receiver, they tracked down and logged 30 - 40 of the sensors, before the FBI and Air Force raided one of them, and questioned the other. Now one of the guys has been charged with a federal crime for allegedly removing one of the devices that was protecting a base that doesn't officially exist."
Lob all you want, but dont forget that that same inept government developed the internet or at least what became the internet, and without it, you would still be posting comments like yours on dial up BBS's...
Oh those were the days!
"Our funds have never taken part in toxic or death spiral convertible financings of any sort" -BayStar's managing partne
If there ever was anything at Groom Lake, it won't be there now. The SECOND anyone knew that UFO nuts had got wind of it, anything interesting would have been moved somewhere else.
At a tangent - whatever happened to Bob Lazar?
The DOD forgot to have mommy write their name on the things. If they are on public land, is there anything besides fear of reprisal (like a law) to stop somebody from taking the things?
signatures are for fools with hands
Now they know that we know that they exist!!! on a serious note poking around in stuff like this is asking for troble be it legal or not. The gov needs to keep some things secret because some people don't need to know or are not ready to know some stuff,stuff like that causes problems.
I believe the military installation commonly known as Area 51 is actually an advanced aircraft development center, where they developed craft ranging from the old U2 spy plane to the F-117 stealth fighter. That would make a lot of the UFO sighting claims make sense.
-Meeper
Lot's of military bases have perimeter security and sensors. Try getting into Camp Peary in Virginia. Or any one of a number of other places.
oooo....But it's Area51! Obviously they are hiding something behind those sensors.
Ha. If there ever was anything alien there (highly doubtful), it's long since been moved. Hangar 18, maybe?
Several years ago the Sec. of Defense admitted its existence in a press conference. Hell, I can tell you what goes on there: nothing exciting. They test secret missile systems and secret aircraft.
Derek Greene
Don't forget that the government also brought us NASA, which has given us all sorts of useful technologies.
Now, granted he did rebury the devices, and granted, they were in the public park, not Area 51 itself, but it's not hard for the average person to see why this is a bad idea. There's a lot of stuff in "public" areas you're not allowed to monkey with. If a public park provided restrooms with those annoying motion-sensor faucets, does anyone think they would be within their rights to repeatedly take them apart?
Sure, there is a worry in this case about the government monitoring private citizens in a public place, but "approach" sensors invade privacy a lot less than swarms of armed guards peering through binoculars from the fenceline 24x7.
In short, this guy crossed the line. I understand being intrigued, and even outraged by these devices, but making a map is one thing, and once he figured out what the devices were he never should have touched them.
(Just had a scary thought on preview: what if the odd buried device he found had turned out to be a errant landmine? Of course it's massively criminal for it to be there, but there is a reason you don't got poking unknown military hardware...)
bleh..
more probably they just do some research there nowadays that's just labeled secret for some reason or another..
of course all the ufo crap is just crap, but that doesn't mean they don't have research projects that are 'secret' from public eyes(a lot of this obviously high tech stuff, prototype testing and alike that to some morons might seem like certain proof of ufos).
what's the point in having a huge decoy, just to feed the tourism in the nearby cities??
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Innocent until proven guilty disappeared a few years ago. Due process is up next.
but the crazy UFO stories need to come to an end.
:)
Why?
Seriously. We're talking about people who can't even keep their happy snaps from Iraq secret. The American government hasn't been able to keep a single secret longer than about 15 minutes. They's no aliens at Roswell, or you'd have already seen 500 pictures of them on CNN...
Whoops. A little googling says that Groom Lake is part of Area 51, and IIRC a lot of the testing did take place at Groom Lake. So, the development wasn't there, but some or all of the testing would have been.
Ever heard of this concept? The simplest explanation is probably the best one. Let's start out with Area 51 being a "secret military base" that "doesn't officially exist". Area 51 exists, is acknowledged to exist, and is generally known as an Air Force base. So what could their motivation here be?
Probably that they're tired of a bunch of crazy conspiracy theorists trying to get a photo of the "aliens" on the base. The idea that Area 51 is a government hoax is ridiculous. Anyone who works or has worked for the US Federal Gov't knows the insane levels of bureacracy that you have to deal with on a daily basis, and you don't get thinking anywhere near that creative from the federal government.
Let's stop making such a hugely asinine deal about this. Get out of your basement and stop wearing your x-files t-shirts around.
-- K
Free hint: "almost everyone" don't live in the US. Honest!
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Actually, while in an ideal world he probably shouldn't be prosecuted for investigating sensors in a public area, I do find it encouraging that, when he bothered Area 51, he got prosecuted, rather than just disappearing in the middle of the night.
Can anyone tell me how to set my sig on Slashdot?
Lob all you want, but dont forget that that same inept government developed the internet or at least what became the internet, and without it, you would still be posting comments like yours on dial up BBS's...
OK, I don't mean to imply that the US gov't didn't develop the Internet, but I resent the notion that if the US hadn't, nobody else would've thought of it. I'm quite confident that one way or another, we'd still be using the Internet today, even if DARPA hadn't gotten the ball rolling. Someone else would have.
Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
Trains make no sense in the wide-open Midwest, but here in the Northeast, Amtrak is actually an efficient and relatively pleasant way to get between major cities.
I believe the Northeast Corridor line is actually profitable.
Amtrak's total subsidies have run about 10% of the subsidies provided for the airlines, and yet the public outcry over railroad subsidies has been greater. If you took away all the federal subsidies for air travel, the industry would have made a net profit of almost exactly zero dollars overall, since its inception. Either Amtrak isn't really all that inept, or the airline industry situation is severe enough to justify open rebellion against government by the three stooges.
Granted, the USPS seems to have become a much better service since it was privatized. It also faced some fair free market competition, e.g. from UPS and Fedex, to help that process along. The rail system's competitors are the heavily susidized airlines, commercial buses (which are also a struggling, some would even say floundering industry) and the interstate trucking system, and these impact different areas (passengers and cargo are effectively very different matters, finacially, and Amtrak's performance in one area is best judged seperately fron the other).
Who is John Cabal?
I would almost stake my life on the fact that there will be NO movement of classified aircraft whenever their is a foreign 'bird' overhead. Its standard military tactics to know EXACTLY what is and what will be and at what times foreign sattelites are overflying your theatre of operation.
OK, I don't mean to imply that the US gov't didn't develop the Internet, but I resent the notion that if the US hadn't, nobody else would've thought of it. I'm quite confident that one way or another, we'd still be using the Internet today, even if DARPA hadn't gotten the ball rolling. Someone else would have.
Yeah, we'd be on *some* network at some point, like Compuserve or Genie or something. The beauty of what happened with the internet was that it was not controlled by a single entity, otherwise we'd all be reading slashdot (or some Compuserve created likeness) through a Compuserve branded viewer. Furthermore, things like personal servers, static ip's, p2p, wouldn't be options. As it happened, Darpa created a huge development platform for all of us to experiment on. I doubt without Darpa it would have turned out quite like this.
Like one "totally abhorrent act by the military/government of the US" more or less is going to make a difference now...
If you absolutely, positively must be raided today - illegally enter a restricted area.
Which would be where? the sensors in question were on public parkland.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
Seriously. We're talking about people who can't even keep their happy snaps from Iraq secret.
Those are apples and oranges my friend. Keeping pictures secret that were sent out to private citizens over the internet is different than keeping a secret among government employees
The American government hasn't been able to keep a single secret longer than about 15 minutes.
How do you know? If they did have a well kept secret, it's well kept so you might not have found out. I'm not trying to be rude, just trying to point out that just because you know some things, doesn't mean you know everything
They's no aliens at Roswell, or you'd have already seen 500 pictures of them on CNN...
Why doesn't CNN march into Area 51 and refuse to leave then because the "public wants to know the truth". I have no doubts at it's highest levels, the US government has ways to control the media both subtle and not so subtly.
Riiiggghhttt.... A government shill? Probably not. An idiot if he were actually involved? Certainly. The nature of the work at Groom Lake requires secrecy. While abusive politics and unsafe working condiitons may be part of every military installation, they still need to abide by certain regulations. Goverment records of a base that actually exists and tracking what comes out of it (byproducts, etc) could be enough to comprimise the secrecy of the work that goes on there. So, it serves its purpose of being a secret research facility by staying off the books. Secondly, if he were actually a former-employee or the like, you can bet your ass he had a TSSCI (Top Secret-Secret Compartmentalized Information) clearance. That means he's fucked. Number one, he'd need to submit anything press (books, interviews, etc) related to the NSA/CIA for checking first, so they could take out any references to information that isn't declassified yet (75 years is standard for declassification, not even the existence of Groom Lake). If not, he can be charged with a wide range of charges, which amount to a lot of time in a friendly Federal Prison. Secondly, because of the nature of the clearance (and it doesnn't get much better, all our classified information is compartmentalized) means that we wouldn't have access to a lot of the details he supposedly verified, unless he were pretty far up the chain of command, at which point, he's easily identifiable to the governemnt.
"The more corrupt a society, the more numerous are its laws." -Tacticus
I'm an AirForce brat and had the pleasure of spending 3 years in Italy (Aviano). Absolutely beautiful country, great people, and unbeleivable food (I really can't say enough good things about the Italians).
We did experience taxation at it's finest, however. EVERYTHING was taxed.. if you had a radio in your car you paid a tax. If you had a certain type of TV you paid a tax. We where shielded from a lot of the taxes, but not all of them. It was pretty unbeleivable really.
The point is that the United States is actually a pretty reasonable place tax wise. At least it was compared to most of the countries we visited while we lived in Europe.
Turn s60 photos into awesome videos with mScrapbook for all S60 3rd edition phones!
Arrest a million people all at once? Pack up and move before a million people get on thier doorstep? Tear gas? Land Mines?
If they are really serious? Just start firing into the crowd. Sure, they wouldn't. But if they did you would see 1 million people turn tail, start running and trampling each other to death. Realistically, people will assemble and fight to the death for certain things (food, safety, freedom). The little green men, or whatever in area 51 isn't enough.
I thought due process disappeared two years ago. Does "Camp Delta at Guantanamo Bay" ring any bells?
It is easy to argue that the govnt employs common people, who cannot handle some info. The truth is, that the secret stuff gives the feds an advantage over spooks in other countries. If you can keep the fact that you have a fleet of F-117s on hand, you get the advantage of Saddam Hussein not buying the latest anti-stealth shoulder launched rockets from Serbia at $zillion a pop for a few more years. Simple. Military advantage. I can handle knowing that the USAF has rocket powered toilets just as well as the next guy, but may be in USAF's advantage not to let ANYONE know about it.
It's logical that if they publish this in the USA, then Osama is going to read all bout it the same day. It's not that regular people like us can't know about it, it's that us not knowing about it is the only way to guarantee that Osama won't know either.
They have full right to do this in the name of security, and it is also their duty to judge what information may be released. Remember, if they release something which allows Osama to level New York tomorrow (i.e. "suitcase thermonuclear bomb for $100 HOWTO"), it's THEIR ass on the line.
And just to drive the argument home: Foreign spies would be out of work if stuff like that was public. What's the harm? Why do you think other countries spend so much money on intelligence, if this info isn't crucial to security?
Not only did you not actually read the GP poster and understand what he was saying, you're also pulling your history out of your ass. The first ARPANET node was at UCLA, with subsequent nodes starting at Stanford, U of Utah, and UC Santa Barbara. Cripes, what a troll!
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
Even if it was a prototype B2, and no one knew what it was. That by definition would make it a UFO.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Yes,
Stealth airplanes.
Drones.
Robots.
Scientists in white suits
Mean and gruff airport personnel with pistols
Must be some Air Force research base of some sort.
Besides, if they had real aliens, they would show them to the world and say: See, they're trying to kill us all, protect your country from Space Invaders, enlist Today!
"Piter, too, is dead."
Geez, doofus, get your own facts straight. He never claimed to invent it, just that he and some other people supported the legislation that funded its development.
Yes, I know you're a troll, but anyway... Snopes - Al Gore
...or are you just ignorant?
Of course there are an unlimited number of things that are true that we don't know. But no one complains about the Zargnoids who continually steal electricity from my power lines and result in me being overcharged for electricity every month.
More plainly, there's such an abundance of things we don't know that a mere strongly-worded assertion about any one of them can set off the kooks, and the increasingly kook-friendly media. (Mumble mumble Fox mumble.)
I don't believe government employees are not any more fanatical about keeping secrets than ordinary employees, though on some levels they are much more indoctrinated. But still, the thing about Area 51 rumors that have always bugged me is the number of people who would have to be "in" on it, and not talk. And in these days of near-instant communication, it gets a lot harder to prevent leaks.
But the thing that bugs me about Area 51 the most is that the culture of secrecy that some sectors of the government enjoy makes possible a rich environment for spurious stories to flourish. Much worse, to me, than the stories is the secrecy itself, especially since it's alegedly *our* government that's so tightlipped about so much, and Bush and company have made it a lot worse.
So I almost want to wish the conspiracy mongers well on their propaganda efforts -- anything that causes the public to distrust that air of secrecy, and the actions of spooky secret people supposedly in their interest, for there is no force on Earth so horrifying as that of people willing to do wrong things for what they think are right reasons, things like that that work towards increasing that distrust are somewhat positive in my book.
It has been known for some time that Area 51 was simply an aeronautical research base. All those funny lights and weird noises coming from the base were experimental aircraft that the military can't admit to.
For example, the F-115 (the angular black bomber) was actually designed and built in the 60's. However, we first heard about it in the 90's in Desert Storm. You may think that it is using cutting-edge technology, but the tech for the bomber is actually built on research in radar done in the 50's.
It makes you wonder: If they could build the F-115 in the 60's, what kind of craft are they building today? Pulse jets, hovering craft, craft that accelerate at greater than several G, craft that can fly into low orbit and back again, maybe craft that can project images on radar or visual or both.
The military pours billions of dollars into its research each year, and employs the brightest minds in America and abroad. They've been doing this since World War II. Their capabilities are left to the imagination.
About why they won't admit to any of this new tech: Basically, World War II was caused by new advances in battleship and tank technology. Germany thought that they had an invincible battleship, and that their tanks and cannons were vastly superior to anything else in the world. Thus, they believed that they could roll over Europe. Advances in technology tend to give the developers a euphoria of power, expecially when the owner of said tech is a crazed dictator or socialist czar.
The US military is careful to release just enough information to the public to convince everyone else that they don't stand a chance against us.
The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
I'm sorry, but I'm more comfortable with a lack of transparency when it comes to our aerospace defense technology. It's not like we're talking about Gitmo here... ;) We have much more secure unclassified bases up to some kind of mysterious shennanigans (Diego Garcia island!). I hope we have next generation fighters and bombers being readied, but I have to doubt the existence of Aurora fighter command when the V22 and YF-22 are years from combat readiness and may never see action before they're scrapped.
Well I agree with this, anyone dumb enough to go mess with base security sensors deserves to go to jail. They might have done it for fun, but if that information got out it could cause some problems.
More plainly, there's such an abundance of things we don't know that a mere strongly-worded assertion about any one of them can set off the kooks, and the increasingly kook-friendly media. (Mumble mumble Fox mumble.)
I don't think fox is any worse than any of the other channels when it comes to this. They are kook friendly because kook friendly = ratings. It's like the history channel, you wouldn't say that the history channel is Hitler friendly because they run so many WW2 shows. It's just that WW2 is what history channel viewers like to watch.
I don't believe government employees are not any more fanatical about keeping secrets than ordinary employees, though on some levels they are much more indoctrinated.
I would bet they are. Just for the simple fact that they want to keep their clearance never mind other motavating factors. Loyalty to their country comes to mind.
But still, the thing about Area 51 rumors that have always bugged me is the number of people who would have to be "in" on it, and not talk. And in these days of near-instant communication, it gets a lot harder to prevent leaks.
I doubt there are little green men running around in there. It would be hard to keep something like that quiet. It's probably an advanced air force research facility like other people have suggested. Keeping that quiet isn't too hard, you just tell your employees it's for national security. I think people could shut up about the Aurora and it's no big deal. If (Darth Vader, ET, Alf, whichever Alien) were in there, someone would leak it.
But the thing that bugs me about Area 51 the most is that the culture of secrecy that some sectors of the government enjoy makes possible a rich environment for spurious stories to flourish.
I think the government officials have come to the point where the enjoy doing this to the kooks. Look at the whole planet X thing. There was some kind of internet cult that spammed the newsgroup sci.astronomy for a long time that "Planet X/Nibiru" was returning on May 15 2003 to (bring peace, kill everyone, balance my checkbook, whatever else). They contended that there was one world government that was conspiring not to tell the people they were all going to die. Someone in the military obviously caught wind of the kooks, and to drive them batty named one of their operations in Iraq "Operation Planet X" and launched it on may 15 2003. I think the government likes playing with these people, it's got to be fun to mess with their heads.
Much worse, to me, than the stories is the secrecy itself, especially since it's alegedly *our* government that's so tightlipped about so much, and Bush and company have made it a lot worse.
That is just kookery in my opinion. I doubt there is that many secrets going around, except in the military where there is a need for them. I really don't think George Bush is holding satanic rituals underground with his nazi armys and the illuminati planning to take over the world and enslave humanity when ET lands. I guess I could be wrong.
So I almost want to wish the conspiracy mongers well on their propaganda efforts -- anything that causes the public to distrust that air of secrecy, and the actions of spooky secret people supposedly in their interest, for there is no force on Earth so horrifying as that of people willing to do wrong things for what they think are right reasons,
Do you really think the US government is doing "the wrong things". What exactly do you think they are doing in secret that is so bad for the general population of the US?
things like that that work towards increasing that distrust are somewhat positive in my book.
Do you think there are some things you should trust a government to keep secret (ie, new weapons of mass destruction) so they don't fall into the wrong hands?
You make a good point. There's one more thing that I would like to add.
Many people seem to think that the terms 'government' and 'military' are interchangeable when it comes to conspiracy theories and the like. This is where a flaw in many theories lies.
Just because some government officials can't seem to keep their mouths shut (and let's face it, not all "leaks" are intentional) doesn't mean that classified military information can't be kept confidential. The military uses a different system. When you rely on strict need-to-know principles you reduce the number of PoFs (point of failure) to a minimum. Yes, there's always a few people who really do have a need-to-know but those can be hand-picked and are easier to monitor and control. Also, you can get away with implementing and enforcing a lot more stringent and intrusive security measures on military grounds than you can in a civilian workplace.
Uh, some of those pictures were leaked by government employees. When you speak of the government keeping secrets, remember that The Government is just made out of ordinary, individual people.
:D
Sorry my brush was a bit broad when I made that statement. The pictures were leaked by soldiers from everything I've read who do fall under "government employees" I suppose. But by government employees what I really ment were scientists and maybe MP's that would be at a place like Area 51. Not to mention, the pictures had to do with rape and abuse. The Soldier who leaked the pictures probably wanted to make sure the abuse stopped. A government employee doesn't have that kind of motivation to leak things about Area 51 unless people are dying/being abused there or there is a threat to the public. Like I mentioned in the parent post, if ET was there I'm sure people would leak it. If it's an air force research lab, I'm sure people would for the most part be quiet. Despite what we might think from reading and posing on Slashdot, people don't talk without reason.
RE: Taxation in Sweden
:)
Not been in Sweden for the last 7 years, so I am a little out of date on the taxation system, but basically you pay an amalgamate income tax averaging (depending on what area in the country you live in) around 30-32% on your base income. As over 80% of the working population are members of a labour union, they pay 1-1.5% extra towards that (hey, you want a decent amount of cash per month for a while if made redundant, no?).
If you have an extra job to make some extra cash, you fall into the marginal tax bracket where you pay 40-60% tax. The more you earn, the higher the tax rate (yes, we believe that if you are pulling in over a million a year, you can afford to pay a wad in tax).
VAT is 25%, but some things are exempt. Spot tax on fuel, tobacco and alcohol push prices up on those things. A liter of petrol is around US$ 1.25-1.30 or so. A bottle (0.7l) of Absolut Vodka would cost you around US$ 30 or so.
Saying this, we pay a very small fee when we go see a doctor (to prevent abuse of the system by people that just feel lonely) and health care is essentially free, no need for expensive medical insurance as that is what we pay tax for.
The thing people in "government should not tax us at all" countries seem to miss is that the population in Sweden, although we probably complain about taxes as much as anyone else does, actually want this social security network that the taxes pay for. When I go to the dentist, I know I will be able to afford it, I will not need to sell my car or remortgage the house to pay the dentists bill. I rate that as a good thing.
If I for some reason, lose my job and something exceptional happens that means I default on my mortgage or something, social security will make sure I at least have a roof over my head and I can eat until I get back on my feet and can get a job.
Totally off topic, but hey.
Swedish, but resident in the UK since 1996.
20 years ago, as FedEX was starting and had limited coverage, someone I once met has a bad experience.
Therefore, FedEX sucks.
Does that about cover it?
As I sat hitting reload, in 1996, on the FedEX web site, to see where a package I'd shipped was, I saw that, suddenly it had been signed for. I called. the guy was astounded. "Wait, I can still see the truck driving away. How did you know I just got it?"
In an effort to get this thread on topic again, I'll suggest that Area 51 is a research area of the US Gov't in an effort to design air vehicles to replace the USPost Office.
Because the USPS is the only entity that's better armed than the army, and far more motivated to use said arms, the feds must keep Area 51 top secret, lest the USPS make a move and take over the gov't.
Back off topic, no, I don't use United Pulverizing Service any more. When my friend and boss ebayed a well packed guitar amp and it came dead, we opened it up. It had been dropped, buy our guitar techs guess at least 10 feet to afix the speaker magnet to the back of the amp. UPS refused to honor the insurance, claiming that the (recommended by them) double boxing and loads of packing foam consituted "bad packaging."
Lies, damn lies, statistics (and all that).
It's a pretty picture with pretty colors, but thats about all.
In the US, around 50% of my income goes to taxes. Property, income, sales, etc. I don't really drink or use tobacco, so no surge there.
Then I get to try to find health insurance (over $1k/month for a family of 3), I try to save some money for when I'm old because the elderly in the US are largely in poverty conditions.
Advanced countries understand that for its citizens don't have health care coverage, that they mainly see doctors for Emergency care. A child with advanced flu symptoms visiting the ER at 8PM costs DOZENS of times more than treating that child when the symptoms are early or getting that child a flu shot if available.
High medical costs lead to poverty which leads to no health coverage which leads to high medical costs.
But as long as the rich are doing better than they were 20 years ago, it's all ok.
I have six options (I'm in San Diego, one end of the Surfliner route) on the only OTHER profitable line.
Mass transit is profitable in high density areas.
And having rail lines operational is something the government should do. After all, it is only $1 billion a year or so. That's about $4 a person, or 1/90th of the cost to invade.......
Fellowship 9/11
When it comes to matters affecting national security or federal government interests.
A few examples:
Counterfeitting U.S. currency is a '20-years in prison' offence.
Restricted airspace over government buildings such as the Pentagon and the White House.
Federal employees are considered Government property: It is a felony offense to threaten the President's life. It is an automatic 25-year sentence in prison to assault/kill a U.S. Postal Service mail carrier.
These two guys brought trouble on their own heads as the Feds likely used the 'eminent domain' card to make their little mapping project backfire.
Again people,
When it comes to matters affecting national security or federal government interests...
DO NOT FOOL WITH THE FEDS!...
(Definitely not now after the the events of 2001-09-11 in New York City, Washington D.C., and Stonycreek Township, Pennsylvannia.)
Where is my 'eveidence'? I'm 'enitlted' to my own beliefs? I'm sorry, did you say that you earned a degree?
Anyway. . . I'll answer this directly, but first I'm going to respond with a quote from the post you are having such a strong knee-jerk reaction against. . . (I've never quoted myself before, but it strikes me as relevant this time around. Hold on.
Okay. .
I've spent the last five years collecting, reading, interviewing and comparing all kinds of information regarding this stuff, and based on all of that, I have formed my current knowledge structure.
Aside from some of the government contacts who have been kind and brave enough to answer my questions, nearly all of the information I have looked at is freely available to anybody who chooses to seek for themselves. --Some of it must be dug up at the cost of some personal effort and expense, but those looking must expect to work for their knowledge. Nothing is free; it all takes effort, curiosity, and above all, a willingness to see the truth rather than resist it.
Even the sorts of contacts I have made are possible for others to make if they work hard enough.
So you want proof and evidence? Go get it. It's all out there, and I don't owe it to you. Your ignorance or lack thereof has no real value to me and I am certainly not going to fight to overcome your personal barriers in order to make available the fruits of my labor, particularly if you are going to be so rude about asking.
This is, in fact, a common piece of behavioral programming; the belief that the world owes people 'proof' and 'extraordinary evidence'. --That somehow, ignorance is something which should be fortified, defended and valued. A very strange and illogical state, but one which has been successfully impressed upon the public subconscious. --I think, in part, by way of endless court-room dramas on television. Television is an amazing tool when it comes to controlling how the public thinks.
In any case, your state of awareness is YOUR problem; nobody else's, certainly not mine. If you ask, I'll help, but it seems fairly obvious that you don't really want to know anything beyond the preconceptions you currently hold. With the violent sort of response you just demonstrated, it sounds to me like you very much want to stay ignorant. --Though, to be fair, a single post on Slashdot is far from enough to properly gauge a person's intent and personality. (It's a start, though.)
Anyway, what sort of formal study did you do in regard to the Military Industrial Complex?
Also, when looking at something simple like, Crop Circles. . . How much do you actually know about them? People who ridicule so very loudly typically don't have a broad understanding of the subject. I am curious to know the depth of your information.
-FL