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Automakers Try To Keep Repair Codes Secret
An anonymous reader writes "Can't get the trouble codes out of your car's computer? Congress wants to help. I think it's odd that they think it's your God-given right to reverse-engineer your car, but not your XBox. Why aren't the automakers bashing these third-party code readers over the head with the DMCA while they still can?" This debate has been going on for several years.
Rachel Seymour, a college student from Portland, Oregon, has had her 2002 Kia Spectra serviced 12 times for a Check Engine light problem. Each time, she's forced to take it to a Kia dealership, where a technician hooks her car up to a computer, runs a battery of tests and charges her $120 to diagnose and repair the same problem: a loose gas cap.
Well, no offense to Ms. Seymour, but she's one dumbass motherfucker. Who the fuck in their right mind pays $120 twelve times ($1440 in total) to be told the same fucking thing? After the first time they told me it was a loose gas cap and I knew that I was tightening it down as best as it could be done I would have ignored (or covered/disabled) the light (which she apparently did after her twelvth visit).
I purchased my second new Saturn SL-series in 8/2002. I just had to take it in for a slipping clutch (at 29,900 which is unheard of as far as I am concerned). They offered me a rental car for free, service that would be finished the next day (probably because they were paying for the rental), and it was all under warranty. Now, like I said, it is unlikely that user error caused a slipping clutch at 30k but it is possible. No questions asked. Seems like they weren't trying to place the blame on the user here and just fixed the damn thing. I wonder if they didn't cover the first time or two and then told her to fuck off and started charging her for wasting their time?
I suggest that Ms. Seymour smartens the fuck up about her car company choices or her insistence on bringing the god damn car back to people who are obviously fucking with her...
I don't see how giving these fucking codes to the smalltime mechanics is going to help one fucking bit for a problem of utter stupidity. Ms. Seymour is going to see cause $$$'s in any automechanic's eyes. In fact, I would be more apt to trust a dealership's service department than some independent... YMMV.
I think it's odd that they think it's your God-given right to reverse-engineer your car, but not your XBox
Simple, a badly maintained car can cause death. A badly maintained Xbox will cost you $99 for a new one. Anyone else spotting the difference here? They arent helping YOU, they are helping the independant garages to keep your car in good shape and help prevent a fatality or two.
Congress allowing reverse engineering of repair codes will allow third party diagnostics systems available at prices the independant can truely afford to pay. This makes them better at maintaining vehicles.
"Why aren't the automakers bashing these third-party code readers over the head with the DMCA while they still can?"
Because the DMCA protects copyrighted information that is protected by some sort of security system (although the system is often lame). These auto codes are not protected by any security, besides obscurity.
The Technonaut
Most common use for modchips: pirating games (illegal)
Most common use for car codes: fixing your car (legal - but most likely won't be possible with future cars)
The similarity is that game makers make less money if you pirate a game (instead of buying it). Car dealers/manufacturers make less money if you fix your own car (and down pay for their overpriced service and "genuine rippof parts").
Casual Games/Downloads
First off, when purchasing a "cheap" car, you get what you pay for. Most of the commercials you see on TV for Kia, Hyundai's and offer the 10-year warranty are crap for this exact reason. The car, a 2002 model is still covered under the manufactuers warranty, however, there's some stipulations. In short, it doesn't cover "user error". Here's a college student who has had the car serviced 12 times for the same problem, and each time told the same thing. Depending on where she lives, she may need to check into her state's lemon law.
I help admin a Mazda 6 enthusiast site and have never heard of anything like this before regarding warranty problems. Any check engine light, whether the drivers fault or not is taken care of without a charge. Paying a $120 fee each time it gets services is ridiculous! Again, just another use to show you the hooks and gimmicks of buying "cheaper" cars thinking that a 10-year warranty will keep you safe from any problems. Our group was lucky. With the help of Mazda service mangers around the US, we were able to get a complete list of trouble codes posted. As was stated in the article the AutoXRay is a wonderful tool to help. It is fairly pricey, but if you have no other way of determining the problem, this would really help and saves on having the repair shop diagnose the problem for you. Instead alll it takes is this scanner to read the codes, determine the problem, and have them fix it. From the article...
"Bryan Hanks, who has taken his 2002 Toyota Prius to his local Houston dealership four times since a single sensor malfunctioned and the Check Engine signal prevented him from using the car's electronic display, said automakers should incorporate USB ports in dashboards to allow consumers to download error messages to a laptop."
Any legitimate scanner will allow you to also download a freeze frame and trouble codes to your laptop or monitor real-time data that may not be available to you through dashboard guages.
IMHO, if after 12 times, I think common sense has to play a big part in the determination process of what's going on. With the advent of cars having tons of microprocessors and computers on-board to control everything from real-time air/fuel ratios to your cabin temperature settings it's no wonder why CEL codes will light up for inane reasons, the gas cap one being the most common. When the reason shows up on the diagnostic computer it most likely shows a fuel leak (depending on car manufactuer). Out of perspective, it seems like a pretty serious problem. However, once all of the fuel lines have been pressure checked and show no leaks, the only problem could be with a loose gas cap. This can go 2 ways.. either she is taking it to the dumbest dealership service department or she is a complete twit herself.
Hmmm.
The car companies make money doing service on your car (unless its under full warrenty), or commisioning other companies to fix your car. Its about lost profits.
Me? If I see a check engine light in my car, I want to know what it is before I shell out $150 to get the "problem", if there is one, repaired.
They are creating competition... If more service shops have these "codes" they are able to offer a better price than the dealership. This gives the consumer the choice of taking it there, having to pay less but also have less-experience machanics (for that particular model perhaps) work, or pay a slightly higher price and have the dealership do it. It creates a choice for the consumer rather than telling them they MUST go to the dealership to get it fixed.
Hmmm.
Excuse me a second. But aren't the diagnostic codes already available if you shell out the money for the aftermarket code readers? And don't just about all of the better auto fixit shops have the code readers? Heck even JCWhitney catalog carries code readers for all but the newest models. So how exactly is congress making the car companies release these codes something that is "new" and something worth wasting my taxpayer money for?
Sig temporarily out of service.
So in a sense people are already buying cars with their hoods welded shut.
It's easy. How many of them do you think own a car and use it frequently? Okay, now how many of them do you think own an XBox and use it frequently? It's something they're just not familiar with.
They KNOW it's a good thing for people to be able to repair their own cars. How many do you think know what an XBox is, why people would want to mod it, etc? If they have no idea why someone would want to do something, they can't really make an informed decision on it.
Go ahead and write them, comparing the two, inform them a bit and maybe you'll see a difference in their attitudes when they're more informed.
This does provide an opportunity to educate Congress by showing them that the needs of both professions with respect the DMCA (and other horrors) are basically very similar at heart.
Oh wait... it's about money... that's right.
The RIAA versus the people: the RIAA has the money.
The Car Makers versus the people: The Car Makers have the money.
It's not about principle, it's about money.
There is only one way to fix this: get GOVERNMENT out of the way. Politicians will ALWAYS be bought and sold, unless they lack the power to do anything in the first place. If they couldn't pass a law in the first place, nobody would pay them to pass a law (or ignore a law).
What can you do to reduce government power?
Join the Free State Project, and find out! We're reducing government because power corrupts and government power corrupts double standardly so.
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
...Because cars have always been, and remain one of the last bastions of the DIY'er. Its expected that most people have at least some small ability to diagnose and repair thier own car. The car makers have been taking that ability away inch by inch the car-codes problem is just the most obvious outward evidense of the problem.
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
This is a little bit off-topic, but one reason why young folks buy Kia's and Hyundais is because of the extra-long warranty period, 10 years, I think. A quote from the article helps me to realize that Kia's warranty is probably fraught with small-print and legalese that helps them to cover their butts with their decade-long warranty.
"Instead of explaining anything to me they just pull out a warranty sheet with a highlighted portion indicating that they don't cover Check Engine light problems."
They don't cover check engine light problems? I can see, on one hand, why they wouldn't do this (money-wise), but on the other, it's not very nice to offer someone what is evidentally perceived to be a blanket warranty for the whole car and then charge for small repairs. I think that Kia and other similar, low-cost automakers should be more forthcoming in their commercials about their warranties.
It's all part of the same racket.
Here in good 'ol New Joisey, any 'newer' car (I believe '96 or newer) gets a computer test instead of the rod-up-the-tailpipe test. If your check-engine light is on, you automatically fail the test -- they won't even plug into the computer.
If it's not on, they read the codes in your engine, and if everything is OK, you pass the smog test.
Now, do you smell a racket here or what?
State inspection: free. Inspection at a "PIF" (Private inspection facility): $75.
Isn't it in your mechanic's interest to conveniently have that irritating-yet-not-telling-you-anything check engine light go on, so you have to bring it back to be inspected for $75?
Grr... just another screw-job.
I know that many cars already come with OBD II compliant ports (http://www.obdii.com/) and there are interfaces out there to hook your laptop to the OBD port and check the engine management software. Indeed there are tools to remap the engine software that use the same OBD port (I've installed this on my BMW)
Given that this type of standardized interface exists, and that tools for "exploiting" it are readily available and fairly cheap, I don't see how it would be possible to keep this information (error codes and the like) secret.
Interested in a Flash-based MAME front end? Visit mame.danzbb.com
People just depend too much on their cars, and there's too much of a tradition of allowing people to have their cars fixed as they'd like them to be, to allow car manufacturers the right to restrict access. It's something people feel strongly about.
The days of the common man being able to modify and repair their own car seem to be coming to a close. Cars are made of too many different metals that are not as easily worked with as steel, and there are too many electronics and computers. But even so, manufacturers trying to put a strangle hold on repair shops to make them be registered and have the proper codes is just wrong.
Why shouldn't you be allowed to use your XBOX how you'd like, and Congres is trying to protect your right to use your car how you choose? Well, I'm not so sure you should be so restricted, maybe Congress should have said something earlier, but if you like the idea of being able to use whatever you buy, this is something to get behind.
The problem is that the greybeards in Congress remember when they could work on their own cars, before all the computerization and emission-control crap was added. So they sympathize with owners who "want to be able to fix their own cars, but the newfangled ones are too '1337."
This contrasts with computers and technology, because the members of Congress never knew how it worked, so of course there's no reason to open the hood, to extend the metaphor. "Computers? Well, them's crazy things, you better ask my 9 year old nephew... take it apart? Why, you'll probably break it anyway!"
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
It was before the lemon laws. The problem was that the car would just quit, right in the middle of driving down the interstate or wherever. After a few minutes you could restart it. After the third trip to the dealership failed to find the problem, I "revoked my acceptance" of the product, just like it was a bad hair drier I took back to Walmart. The dealer sputtered and argued for a while, but I got my money back and took it down the road and bought a different brand. It didn't take me 12 tries.
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
... you just have to pay for it. One place you can get this sort of stuff, off the top of my head, is ALLDATA. There's many others, I'm sure.
The info is out there and many of the car companies do indeed offer it. They just don't much advertise it. They're too busy making cars to be selling information about them. Don't chalk this up to malice so fast, is what I'm saying. Mark it down as stupidity instead. It seems more likely.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
I'm of the opinion that people like Microsoft, the RIAA, and the MPAA are shooting themselves in the foot by trying to "secure" their IP rights by attempting to rewrite laws about fair use. Of course, there are people that will circumvent copy-protection efforts for theft; but aren't there enough honest people out there that could actually benefit from this technology? I've been wondering lately, how many honest people out there are making negative decisions about purchasing these types of things because of the very "anti-consumer" attitude that these companies are taking? For example:
- By attempting to make the modding of XBoxes illegal (I'm not even sure if modding them is illegal, but the DMCA says that reverse-engineering the copy protection is), Microsoft is locking their machine into a single-purpose device, when it is capable of SO much more. Aren't there enough people that aren't interested in games at all, that that would purchase an XBox over a PS2 because it was moddable and came with a hard drive? That way they could use it as a PC that they can connect to their TV without adding any hardware (except the mod chip of course)? Heck, if there weren't any issues regarding modding them at all, I'd be recommending that my company purchase them for desktop PCs! If Microsoft was to sell add-on hardware for them, couldn't they re-coup the loss that they take on the hardware cost and expect to make up with game sales and licenses?
- By making the copying (backup) of DVDs illegal (321 studios isn't allowed to sell the "full version of "DVDXCopy" anymore), isn't the MPAA saying that they are aware that the lifetime of a DVD isn't infinite, and that as a consumer, I'm being forced to buy the same DVD again sometime in the future when my original fails? Aren't there enough people out there that would be MORE willing to purchase DVDs if they could be assured that it was okay to back them up? I wouldn't buy a hard drive and put important data on it unless I had some way of backing it up...
- Same goes for the RIAA and the "backing up" of CDs. I'm more willing to purchase music if I know that I'm purchasing it and the ability to play it ANYWHERE, ANYTIME. If that means being able to copy it 4 zillion times then so be it. I'm also one of those people who doesn't like to purchase whole albums since most of them are fluff, so the iTunes concept is the perfect solution for people like me. My message to the RIAA: "Don't try and squash it, badmouth it, or otherwise derail it - PROMOTE IT! It will have the positive effect of forcing artists to spend more time MAKING QUALITY songs to fill their albums with."
What do you all think?
I was in the park the other day wondering why frisbees get bigger and bigger the closer they get - and then it hit me.
If the light is on constantly, you can probably just take it to Autozone, they have a free check engine light service.
:).
I had a check engine light on, that had been on for months, but never worried about it, but when it came time for emmissions check they refused to pass my car because of the check engine light. So, after calling around and the running rate was $100 or so, I took it to Autozone they jumppered a connection under my dash, turned the ignition and my panel flashed a diagnostic code, and they put it into their computer. The problem: bad O2 sensor, so I open the hood, and there is a cable hanging under the O2 sensor not connected to anything, so I plug it into the sensor, turn the car on, no check engine light and I pass emissions.
I also asked the guy at Autozone if I could keep the tool used to jumpper the connection and he said sure so now I check my own check engine light problems
Things you think are in the Constitution, but are not.
Simple, a badly maintained car can cause death. A badly maintained Xbox will cost you $99
It probably has more to do with the number of Congressmen who own a car versus the number who own an XBox.
One man's -1 Flamebait is another man's +5 Funny.
Go to Autozone. The nice man there has a code reader, and will read the code, for free, and tell you what it means. Of course he wants you to buy some parts to fix it, but you don't have to.
Alternatively, you can look it up here Input your car model and year, and the specific code.
Computers, on the other hand, are Magic Boxes. They don't know how a computer works, are possibly afraid to learn, and hate it that 14 year old boys know more about it than they do and can cause so much trouble with one. They see the results and power of these fine general problem-solving tools but don't know how to harness it for themselves which frightens them, so they think it's better to regulate it until they do (or so that they don't have to worry about it anymore).
I grant that this is a pretty broad generalization and there are certainly counter examples of my characterization of these men (for instance Al Gore or maybe Jay Inslee) but never underestimate the pride and ego of an old man. It's practically a force of nature.
Scantool.net has a device they sell for ~$100 which allows you to connect your laptop to your car. You can read and clear codes. It's a more expensive version of Black Tape on Top of the Check Engine Light, but since my light keeps coming on, it allows me to make sure no other problems are being hidden by a faulty sensor throwing errors.
Plus - the software is open source and on Sourceforge.
If you don't want to buy your own reader, drive by an AutoZone and ask them to read it for you. Guy will come out to your car and plug the thing in and check the codes and even explain what it means (assuming he knows what it means, which I'm sure varies from person to person). It's a useful way to determine if you actually need service or if it's just complaining about the gas cap or low oil or something.
Disclaimer: I work for AutoZone and have for about 2 months now. However, I'm trying hard not to be a shill, sort of thing. Still, if you don't feel like dropping $100 on a reader, this is an alternative you'll want to look into.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
The codes are available on the net if you know where to look. Often they are found on auto enthusiast websites. Websites like Focaljet.com
Not only that there is a great project for retrieving codes under linux. The project is called FreeDiag. It can be found at Sourceforge.net
Not only that, there are some great "open" cables you can build yourself. the BR interface is my fav. It happens to work very nicely with freediag.
Hope this helps people that are interested.
What could possibly go wrong?
When I lived in New Jersey, you paid the PIF $75 and then they told you what was wrong with the car right before giving you the certificate. Some PIF sites just handed out certificates and didn't seem to do any testing at all.
You know, I've read numerous times and places that Saturns have really good service and support, but not being an auto nut, I had no idea whether it was just part of a big Saturn marketing effort.
I just turned in my Saturn SL2 that had 160,000 miles on it. It still ran great. I never failed once to have a positive experience when dealing with a Saturn dealership. They were great every. single. time.
On a side note, remember those Saturn "picnics" they'd have where Saturn owners from around the country would come? How did they find their car when it was time to go home?
"Tell me doctor, with all of your defenses, are there any provisions for an attack by killer bees?"
Between the Haves and Have nots. From 1986 to 1992 Corvettes could display error codes using the SES light and a jumper...From 1997 on, all Corvettes can give you a VERY COMPLETE error code with a couple of keypresses on the trip computer buttons.
(Turn on key but don't start car. Press 'reset' untill all warnings are cleared, press and hold 'option' while pressing 'fuel' four times. The system will then list through all major control sections for any current or recent past error codes.)
My PT cruiser has a similar process (press and hold the trip button while inserting the key and turning to run.)
Why is this such a big deal? _I'd_ like to know when my O2 sensor is kaput and not trust the guy behind the counder saying my muffler bearings need rotating.
"Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
Hasn't technology evolved to a point where we don't need to extract and look up arcane codes to determine what is wrong with our hardware (computers or cars)? I understand that there was a time when storing the text for error codes used up precious RAM/ROM, but come on!
I mean, how hard would it be to fit a car with an LED/LCD readout that says "Your gas cap is loose or missing." It doesn't have to be a fancy voice like in luxury cars. Just a little readout on or under the dash that tells you exactly what is wrong (as far as the car's sensors can tell, anyway). Maybe a nice message that tells you, "Your transmission has exploded. Seek professional help."
Geez.
-matthew
"THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
Okay, probably a 1 in a billion shot of happening but..
Hypothetical situation here:
Say you own a 2003 Yugo. Yugo goes out of business, or closes down all dealerships in your neck of the woods. Yugo never revealed their diagnostic codes outside the company. Your car breaks down with some weird diagnostic codde you can't decipher. What do you do?
I think it's odd that they think it's your God-given right to reverse-engineer your car, but not your XBox.
It's simple. They understand cars enough to know what the danger is. They don't understand computers enough to see the same dangers there. (Your XBox example doesn't really highlight the problem, since it is just a game after all - a better example is things like voting machine code and proprietary device drivers.)
Really, that's all there is to it. It's simple familiarity. Screw with people's ability to fix their own cars and you impact a lot of people the congrescritters know personally - they grok what's going on because everyone's got cars, everyone's opened hood on them, and everyone either knows how to fix minor things on them or is just one relationship hop away from someone who does. Now, how many congressmen know the first thing about how computer software is made? How many of them realize just how artificial the line is between software design and software fixing? It's not nearly as clearly cut as the line between designing a car and fixing a car.
Secondly, a congresscritter would never accept that it's okay for someone to get free access to the blueprints from a car manufacturer for how to make the car, but they understand that people should have access to the diagnostic tools. What they don't understand is that that distinction doesn't exist in computer software. The "user-servicable" part of a software program is...the whole thing. And only a programmer can really understand how true that is.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
OBDII is standard... only the trouble code references are secret... I have an OBDII scanner... and next year, Pennsylvania is switching over to OBDII-only emissions inspection on newer cars. This pretty much REQUIRES automakers to make the codes known to official inspection stations. Also, I've never had trouble calling my favorite local Nissan dealer to get trouble code references for my Pathfinder. I just don't see what the big deal is..
I have an OBD-II scanner. It's about $100 or so, hooks up to my laptop, and the software is free and the codes in the software are frequently updated. I've never had a code in my car that's undocumented.
The interface is simple, there are now only 5 protocols and interfaces that need to be supported by any given ISO compliant scan tool (ISO9141, PWM, VPW, Keyword, and CAN). These protocols and interfaces are available for a huge fee from ISO and other standards organizations.
There is enough information online and in various electronics magazines to interface without getting the standards, but the real problem is that there are only so many well-defined codes. Every car supports those. But each new model the manufacturers add more codes that are manufacturer, and sometimes even model, specific.
The vast majority of the codes are available, what this legislation does is make it so that when a new code is defined for a specific make/model/year, then it's instantly published. Even now you have to wait a year or 5 before the codes come out because warranties take care of the vast majority of work. Its the heavy use customers, and the shady dealerships that make it necessary to have the codes as soon as the model is available, but the dealerships and manufacturer have every incentive to not provide the information in a timely manner.
This legislation is to codify what, how, and when to release this information, whereas now the auto industry has tried to avoid regulation by volunteering incomplete and late information.
There is one open hardware project to support one of the protocols, and some open software to support the hardware, but it still leaves out 1/2 of the vehicles, and doesn't cover more than one car.
I've been working on making a completely open, compliant hardware and software product to comply with all the current standards and allow easy updating of codes. I have access to the standards, hardware, and only lack time and money. Hopefully within the next two years we'll see $20 code scanners with online code lookup (hardware is actually fairly easy) but assuming we don't, email me about the interest and I may move this from the back burner. I still have two projects in the pipeline that have to be finished, but I could have something before the end of the summer if there is significant interest. It would have to be fully open hardware/firmware/software.
-Adam
It's a pretty nice service for them to provide considering it prevents you from being ripped off by some jackass mechanic ("Yeah, the computer box sez your framistat is kaput."), and also allows you to ignore minor issues like the check-engine light being on because your gas cap sensor is faulty.
-- I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist. It's not my fault that life sucks so much. --
A few enterprising people have reverse-engineered the KWP-1281 and -2000 protocols that VW and friends (VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda) use on their cars. One of the most recognized is VAG-COM which pretends to behave just like the expensive VW shop scantool in almost every respect. The only potentially useful feature it doesn't replicate is the ability to update firmware to the various control modules in a car. It even adds the ability to graph various sensor values, and with a cut-and-paste to an Excel spreadsheet can calculate horsepower just from driving the car around for a while (the 'butt dyno').
Very cool, and cheap enough for a only slightly mechanically inclined geek to justify.
>leave it unlocked and someone will come along and remove the radio
They'll leave the radio, because it's a POS they can't sell, but they'll take your airbag, your seats, rims, your dog, and the herb in the glove box, and then key your paint just so you know where it's at.Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
How did they find their car when it was time to go home?
I have the amazing ability to remember a random sequence of letters and numbers.
Most vehicles have them stamped in metal plates on the front and/or rear bumpers.
I think the legislation allowing people to go to outside dealers for warranty work will be even better. In my case, I am an Engineer with a love for cars. I bought $700 software to reprogram my car, and another $400 on software to scan and log the data from the On Board Computer (OBD-II). A few years ago, I threw an SES (Service Engine Soon) light, and immediately scanned it with my gear. It read, "Low Flow - EGR Malfunction". I took the car in to the dealer, since emissions are warrantied for 100k miles in California, and I told them it was an EGR malfunction. The dealer serviceman looked incredulous. He replied, "You're not supposed to know that!" Long story short, I threw a code a week later and scanned it again. When I saw a repeat of the same error code, I looked closer at my repair sheet from the dealer. They had replaced my Air Pump, otherwise known as a Smog Pump, which is totally unrelated to Exhaust Gas Recirculation, or EGR valve. I bought an EGR valve off E-bay and just replaced it myself, thinking the issue would be over. After I installed the new EGR valve, the code cleared, never to return.
The story takes a funny twist at this point. I received a notice from California DMV that my car was being held up for registration renewal because of an uncorrected emissions recall. I look at the notice and it's for the EGR replacement. I took the car back to the dealer and they certified they replaced the recalled part. In other words, they certified they replaced a part they were unable to diagnose and that I ultimately had to replace myself. It's for reasons such as this that I sold my Trans Am and stopped racing. I spent thousands of dollars ensuring my '97 Trans Am had nothing but CARB (California Air Resource Board) approved modifications for low emissions, and high performance (427 dyno'd horsepower at the tires), yet $15 an hour greasemonkeys couldn't effectively manage the emissions process. It became too stressful trying to find a smogshop where people had a clue.
John Schubert
The "three good starts" trick is pretty much a standard for OBDII systems. The mechanic told you to do that because each of those starts causes the car to run a little POST-like check. It keeps track of recent codes and counts how many times the problem hasn't been detected. After the third good start, the problem is assumed to be fixed (or that it was transient) and the light goes out.
The car may or may not store the code in memory until a mechanic or someone with a scan tool clears it, but the indicator lamp on the dash will not light.
i am a soviet space shuttle
Perhaps this is because a car is something tangible. Every Congressman understands the need to work on your own car. Perhaps many Congressmen have worked on their own cars in their 20's. It is simply very widely accepted that people fix their own cars, and for that reason, Congress has no problem protecting your rights to do so.
On the other hand, your XBox, or your computer, or whatever, is relatively new and the need to mess with these things is not very well understood. Why would you want to open that box and mess with the chips inside? Only because you're some pimply faced geek with no life, most likely, and that's just plain stupid. That is probably how Congress sees it.
Maybe in 20 years, we'll have people in Congress who are sick of not being able to boot whatever operating system they want on their computer, and then they'll understand the need to protect your rights in that regard. But the big software and media companies are pushing as strongly as they can to make information rare and expensive, and to make sure that anybody who copies it for whatever reason (legitimate or not) is a pirate and should suffer punishments worse than 1000 murderers, rapists, and kidnappers.
This is what we must fight against. We must make it known that it is retarded to fight against the nature of information. Ooooooooooh well.
I don't think anyone mentioned this yet - so I will.
I'm running a project to write a GPL'ed car diagnostic tool that runs under Linux (and probably BSD too). It's called 'freediag' and the current version works well enough to read out error codes (and possibly zero them) on at least a few types of car.
You'll need to buy or build a cable to connect a laptop to the OBD-II port on your car. A simple serial cable won't do because you have to have optoisolators to protect your valuable laptop from the rigours of the crappy signal quality you get from most cars. If you buy one, it'll set you back maybe $70.
Anyway - the project needs developers - and it needs testers (there are lot of different interface cables and a lot of different subtle variations on the supposed standard car interface).
If you are interested - head over to http://freediag.sf.net (of course!) and sign up to the developer's mailing list.
www.sjbaker.org
Okay, this is another fine example of /. getting the ignorant all worked up over nothing.
/., they incite the exposure of ignorance by offering up one-sided, hot headed, articles and everyone runs with it like it's an "outrage". The true outrage is when people do not think their options through before going on a tangent about how evil empires are out to drain your pocket books. Of course, they are. That is what a business does. If you want the simplest, 1-step, solution to your problem, it will ALWAYS cost you more than if you did not mind putting a little effort into it.
:)
Here is what I do:
1) Stop by the dealership to get the problem diagnosed by the computer. This costs nothing.
2) Once the official cause of the diagnostic code is determined, request they fax you an explanation of exactly what needs to be done.
3) Call non-dealers and get quotes for the repairs. Use your faxed description so you can express the problem clearly to the other mechanic.
4) Take the vehicle to the lowest bidder.
See? That's not all that hard. The problem with
This whole thing reminds me of a scene where George Jetson presses a button on his food making machine, it doesn't work the first time. He then sprains his index finger on the second push. The end result was him kneeling to the floor crying about how difficult life is. Don't be like that.
You know those balls you put on your antenna to find your car in the parking lot? Everybody should have those!
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
I think it's odd that they think it's your God-given right to reverse-engineer your car, but not your XBox.
Because, you fucktard, the DMCA applies to copyright enforcement devices and nothing else. No copyrighted content, no DMCA case.
I'm just so sick of people (particularly on slashdot) bitching about the DMCA, copyright law, trademark law, and just about everything else IP without having any clue what the laws actualy say.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Who cares about an Xbox gaming system... It doesn't make me money. But going without a car? I'm out of a job.
I paid $20+ thousand dollars for this hunk of metal and you're telling me that I'm supposed to just kowtow to the almighty dealer every time I want my check-engine light turned off? I don't think so. I should have the option of going to the dealer, to be sure, but if I'm having a drivability problem, I want to go to someone I trust with my car, someone that charges less and I'm happier with.
I've got an older Jeep Grand Cherokee with drivability problems. Thing is that Chrysler (Dodge) keeps pretty close tabs on their trouble codes so every time my car acts up, if I want to plug it into a computer to find out why its running rough I have to go to the dealer, pull into the service bay, talk to some dipshit who tells me to wait in the waiting room. By the time the technician 'calls my number' the car is running fine and I'm charged the minimum $75 fee for plugging the reader into my car. Because its just running rough, no trouble codes are set in the computer, and therefore the only way to catch the problem is when its happening.
Conversely, It started happening again and I called my local mechanic telling him that I'm coming over, "Its acting up again". I pull up and he walks out with his code reader in hand, wiping his hands on a red shop towel. Plugs in the computer and sees immediately that I've got a widget stuck in the maniform valve, giving the ejection seat a prematurely high voltage which was advancing the ignition timing to fire way before tea-time.
I dunno what was wrong that time, but all I know is it was a $110 part and $75 in labor and my Jeep is running like new...
Dealers have their place, but not in every case.
Good security is based upon reality and common sense. Common sense is a function of having common knowledge.
There are different standards applied to your car and your computer, hence different application of things like the DMCA.
1. The owner of a car has a duty to keep that car in safe operating condition (if it is going to be used on the roads) If the law burdens a man with a responsibility, it must also provide him the means to carry it out. This generally precludes the law from tying him to a single vendor. (Think insurance, you can pay for it or post bond and insure yourself. You can pay for auto service or
buy tools and do it yourself.)
2. The law does not presently burden the owner of a computer to keep it in operating condition (if it is to be used on the internet.) Thus the DMCA may be enforced without creating a conflict.
3. It might be beneficial to require the same standard of care for your computer that we require for your car, but don't hold your breath. Car accidents LOOK a lot more damaging than unsecure computers.
Trying to use sarcasm in text-based forums does not work.
This quote from the article sums up almost all future computing legal issues. "The legislation argues that consumers own their vehicles in their entirety and should be able to access their onboard computers." All debates about piracy center around this idea. As we, as a society evolve into computing (just ask any 9 year old how to program your cell phone), we can only hope that the government falls on the side of the consumer as witnessed in legislation pending regarding cars. The future of computers and of programming will depend on one's ability to continually manipulate code to suit one's need. I will be damn proud if my son decides to reverse-engineer anything. Jon Lech Johansen's father must be the proudest father on the planet
Just so you know, I like to start signatures with the phrase, "Just so you know."
I want to give a sincere thanks for that tip. As a guy who loves his car but has never even managed to change his own oil, I'm a big fan of AutoZone, for four reasons:
;)
a) I live in Memphis, their HQ city;
b) AutoZone graciously provides space for many of the Memphis Linux user group meetings;
c) Every time I've gone to AutoZone, the people have been polite and I don't feel like I'm getting screwed;
d) They've been sued by SCO
I own a 2000 Monte Carlo. It has an on-dash LCD style display which pops up any messages in black on an orange background. It was an AutoZone employee who solved my mysterious ongoing "Low Tire Pressure" message problem. I'd bought a digital tire pressure gauge and repeatedly ensured that all the tires were fine. I couldn't figure out what was going on, but the car's out of warranty now, and I was loathe to go to the dealer. So when I went by AutoZone to buy some Rain-X, I asked the guy working the register if he knew anything about this issue.
Not only did he know, he said "let's take a look at it." He came out with his own pressure gauge to inspect my tires, and spent at least 15 minutes talking with me like he was my best friend, no charge. Apparently the newer Chevy models have sensors which determine the "tire pressure" by judging the alignment of the wheels against each other. Assuming that all four tires are properly aligned, if one is rotating out of sync with the others, low tire pressure is a proper diagnosis... But if the alignment is off, the "Low Tire Pressure" warning displays incessantly. The AutoZone guy explained this in detail, I got a rotate/balance the next time I had an oil change, and lo and behold, no more "Low Tire Pressure" light.
Fucking amazing. If I'd gone to one of the local garages, they'd have probably charged me $30+ just to take a look, not to mention a proper diagnosis. The AutoZone guy did it free, and quite happily, after I'd made a whopping $4 purchase of a bottle of Rain-X.
I was once told that AutoZone has a 4 terabyte database hanging around somewhere. Any idea if this is true?
"BSD: Free as in speech. Linux: Free as in beer. Windows 10: Free as in herpes." --Man On Pink Corner in #52607549.