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Marking 50 Years Since Alan Turing's Death

erroneous writes "Today is the 50th anniversary of the death of Alan Turing: mathematician, code breaker, and computer pioneer. He was today commemorated in his home city of Manchester, UK." Here are stories at the BBC and at The Register.

101 of 423 comments (clear)

  1. Killed by the society he saved. by CelticLo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Forced to take hormones to cure his homosexuality.

    1. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by Raven42rac · · Score: 4, Informative

      From Dailyrotten:
      June 7 1954 Despondent over court-ordered estrogen treatments to cure his homosexuality, Alan Turing commits suicide by consuming an apple laced with cyanide. Turing is considered the founder of modern computing, a pioneer in the field of Artificial Intelligence, and a crucial member of the team that cracked Germany's Enigma cipher in World War II.

      --
      I hate sigs.
    2. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by orthogonal · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Forced to take hormones to cure his homosexuality.

      Yet another reason not to use "that's teh ghey" as a term of disparagement.

      (Not to mention it just sounds stupid.)

    3. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      cure should be in quotes, i daresay, since it isn't a sickness....

    4. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by Ironix · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Is it any coincidence that Apple Computers has a logo of an apple with only one bite in it?

      --
      Still #1 -- Lonely Gay Geek
    5. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by RabidOverYou · · Score: 5, Informative

      At first, they gave (male) homosexuals testosterone. After all, they were "too girly", right? Well shit, that just turned them into raging aggressive horny homosexuals. So, since that didn't work, they thought "what the heck, let's do the opposite". They had no clue, but kept experimenting. Never seemed to cross their minds just to leave the poor guys alone.

    6. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by damiam · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes.

      --
      It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
    7. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by MsGeek · · Score: 3, Informative

      Depo-provera, a synthetic form of Progestin, is currently used for this purpose, and referred to as "chemical castration." It is also administered as a means of birth control for women. One of its side effects in women is lowered libido.

      --
      Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
    8. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by GuyMannDude · · Score: 2, Funny

      Unfortunately, that's the way we geeks get treated a lot of times.

      Too bad Turning didn't chose a different approach to dealing with ungrateful masses.

      GMD

    9. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by Babbster · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Of course, homosexuality isn't something to be "cured", but it was the 50's... not the most tolerant time.

      It's too bad we still haven't come far enough, considering a leader of a democratic nation wants to amend the constitution in order to deny rights to the homosexual segment of the population. One has to wonder if President Bush would approve of forcing chemical castration on homosexuals today.

    10. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      There are 2 things to consider here I think most people are missing. I'm not saying what happened made it right, but people seem to be lacking context. Frequently, we look back at things and say horrific, but we wouldn't be where we are today if those events in the past hadn't taken place. (I personally find it ridiculous to piss on Thomas Jefferson because he had slaves, Lincoln because he didn't believe blacks could ever be equal to whites, or Columbus for causing genocide simply because he "discovered" the Americas.)

      First, in historical context, I believe homosexuality was still considered a mental illness then. Nearly anyone in this time period with a mental disease was treated like trash.

      Second, medical practice back then was not as, say, scientific as our approach is today. Treatment and cure experimentation were the focus of the day, not understanding the underlying basis of disease (as noted, homosexuality as considered a mental illness back then).

      That said, his so-called treatment fell between medical science as well as societal/legal ramifications.

      This is also one of the reasons why it was a huge step to get homosexuality unlisted as a mental disease, something that that vast vast majority in the medical community, conservative or progressive, overwhelmingly agree with. (And also why the scientific and political community has always adjoined and butted heads nearly simultaneously.)

    11. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No.

      do I get modded +5 insightfull for that now?

    12. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by Rei · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Why on earth did you just try and mix up homosexuality and transsexuality? Completely different things - and transsexuality *is* treated with hormones (something most transsexuals are happy about).

      Homosexuality isn't a disease because homosexuals are already in the state that they want to be in (barring issues of societal acceptance). Homosexuality - attraction to the same sex - has no real barriers apart from societal ones. Transsexuals, however, are not in such a state. Consequently, it is a condition that needs treatment.

      One thing that is funny about transsexuality is that the medical community considers it a disease - meaning that the individual must get diagnosed, receive extensive councelling, and meet a variety of requirements - incurring extensive medical expenses. However, the insurance companies and government health agencies do not and consider all treatment "cosmetic", making it so that they don't pay for treatment. Consequently, transsexuals often have their problems compounded by the medical system.

      --
      "99 dead duelists of Dios on the wall. 99 dead duelists of Dios! Take one's ring, pass it around..."
    13. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by Rei · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How would it sound to you if someone else had posted:

      "I think, that the real problem is, that some of the blacks don't act really normal (well, that's the same for many of our white friends, but that's not the case right now) - they try to act like they were criminals and prostitutes, while that's in my opinion not a behavior I could accept. Many of my friends are black - and I don't really care, what's their race - unless they act like a criminal or prostitute. I still think, that in ordinary situations, a person has to act like we white people do - and if I use the term "black" to describe disparagement - I only mean people, who act like that. That's something, that doesn't really depend on what your race is. Just think about it."

      You'd find that incredibly offensive, wouldn't you? Doesn't every sentence bite? Why is it ok to do that to gay people? For God's sake, just because someone has a culture different than yours (and different groups *do* form their own culture - try to talking to a member of the religious right in the deep south, for example), doesn't give you some almighty right to make fun of them. If the world had that sort of mentality as a whole, war and riots would never cease.

      --
      "99 dead duelists of Dios on the wall. 99 dead duelists of Dios! Take one's ring, pass it around..."
    14. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Lets not forget that it also has side effects like she can lose her hair, she is constantly depressed and she has her period for 3-4 weeks of every month (which they say is temp until she stops having her period altogether, but i never saw it.) There was a good portion of time there which I was pretty sure the way it prevented pregnancy was by making sure we NEVER had sex. Between the constant bleeding, the low libido, and her never "feeling sexy" thedrug was VERY effective at preventing pregnancy.

    15. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by Babbster · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Our form of democracy is not designed so that the many can impose their will on the few. In fact, the judiciary exists to avoid exactly that result.

      As long as marriages are "sanctified" by the government in the form of licenses, divorce law and the like, no legal definition of marriage should exclude any citizen of legal age from marrying another citizem of legal age, whatever their respective anatomies.

      I would finally note that calling for a constitutional amendment in order to strictly define marriage is idiocy. Neither our nation's existence nor the rights of heterosexuals are threatened by two men or two women getting married. I can therefore only assume that people in favor of such an amendment (or similar laws) are bigots.

      (I'll take 1 point off this comment myself for being on a tangent drifting ever further away from the subject of Alan Turing.)

    16. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by Hard_Code · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "If there's a darwinian reason for homosexuality, I've never heard it"

      From my limited biological knowledge: Some species (e.g. some frogs) can actually /change sex/ to accomodate the environment. Some male frogs do this IIRC, changing from male to female when the male/female ratio is too high.

      Granted primates are way more complicated, and the reason might be entirely different. There are tons of weird, "useless" crap that natural selection has left us with. Hell, most human behavior was designed to hunt animals, live in a cave, and die at age 30. Almost nothing about us is "natural" or "useful" any more. Remember natural selection may "select" towards fitness, but it doesn't necessarily deselect things that are not useful but not particularly harmful either. From what I hear about DNA, there is massive amounts of "junk" we carry around, and that we have to support by caloric intake. However that "junk" can really be thought of as a self-decompressing self-decrypting program that comes into affect essentially at birth and at various other times. If you think about it computationally, there is a "limit" to the amount of "stuff" you can describe with DNA. The fascinating thing is how it bootstraps, self-decompresses, self-decrypts, and self-modifies. It's all amazing that it even works at all. It would be like typing random characters into a computer and one day just popping out the Linux kernel.

      --

      It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
    17. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by FunkyRat · · Score: 4, Insightful
      ...medical practice back then was not as, say, scientific as our approach is today.

      You think medical practice is any more scientific today than it was in the 1950s? Now, I'm not saying medical research isn't scientific, because it is (although the studies are often questionable due to the special interest groups funding them). It's just that medical practice is often as much voodoo as it was 50 years ago. Neither is clinical psychology any better. Mental illness is often culturally defined. Here in the U.S. in 2004 it just so happens that it's no longer socially acceptable to believe that homosexuality is a mental illness. Doesn't stop a whole lot of nutter Christian fundies from believing otherwise though.

    18. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by Babbster · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Oh, and in case you want to anti-bible-thump again

      Again? I wasn't aware that I said a single word about religion, but then again people are reading a lot more into my short post than is actually there.

      As for the reasoning behind the government recognition of marriage, there are other benefits of marriage that have nothing to do with children. One would be shared health care costs - while many companies have opened up their health insurance benefits to unmarried couples, it's by no means universal. Another is in the case of life/death decisions if a partner is incapacitated, perhaps brain dead and on life support. In the absence of a living will, a partner - even if the cohabitation had been going on for 20 years or more - doesn't have the same legal status as a wife/husband. Ditto if a person dies without a will, or if a will is contested. Next of kin status is only afforded to married partners and blood relations.

      Not to mention that all of your "raising children" arguments break down if homosexuals are permitted to adopt children (and they are).

      In short, as long as the government is affording specific legal rights to married partners which are not extended to homosexual partners, the law is discriminatory...and a constitutional amendement, in my possibly ultra-liberal, apparently anti-religious opinion, would be blasphemy.

    19. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by smallpaul · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why should gays act "normal"? Why is acting normal more important than acting in a manner that makes you feel happy and comfortable? I'm straight but I'm certainly not normal (posting on Slashdot late at night for example). You're probably not totally normal yourself. So what: abnormality is what makes the world interesting.

    20. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by pturing · · Score: 3, Interesting

      >If there's a darwinian reason for homosexuality, I've never heard it

      there are a few good hypotheses

      Keep in mind that you don't have to reproduce yourself to have reproductive success. The best way is through supporting family members, but benefiting the community can also be a good stratagy, and anything that benefits the species will do. In some cultures it is common for homosexuals to become priests, and I'm not just talking about Catholics here.

      If we were to evaluate Mr. Turing's reproductive success, we would probably consider it very high; certainly he helped save the lives of many of his countrymen, with whom he had much genetic commonality.

    21. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by DunbarTheInept · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There are some who would say that the whole gay/bi/straight thing shouldn't really be treated as seperate distinct categories, but rather as a sliding scale where very few people are entirely at one end or the other. A 100% straight or 100% gay person is rare, and most are something like 98% one and 2% the other or something like that - with that kind of a model, it's easy to see how an evolutionary model could end up with percentages that come out "straight" only 90% of the time, and those percentages could differ from one person to the next, to the point where in rare cases the preferences end up the other way around - it's not a difference of category, but one of proportionment and ratio.

      Under that model, the difference between gays and straights wouldn't be so much a categorical difference (like having ten fingers versus having six) but a slight ratio difference (like the ratio of pignments in your hair that makes some people's hair come out blond or brown or black or red.)

      --

      Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.

    22. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by HolyCoitus · · Score: 5, Interesting
      If you're going to bring the bible up, at least know what it says...

      Romans 1:26
      For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
      1:27
      And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

      Romans 1:31
      Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
      1:32
      Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them


      All of that is related, and ends with saying that they are worthy of death for desiring someone of the same sex or accepting others who do. That's in the New Testament. You'd expect that from the old, since it's generally vile, but the New Testament is rather sneaky with its pervasive evil.

      Off your post, to say that Christians have nothing to do with Turing's death is illogical. It's one of many things that I believe Christianity has done to hurt modern society.

      And on gay marriage, the law either needs to be changed so that you have to have a kid to get married or you allow everyone to. That simple. Your logic is flawed on that fact, since the Christian church does not allow children out of wedlock.
      --
      That's scary.
    23. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by Decaff · · Score: 2, Interesting

      but it doesn't necessarily deselect things that are not useful but not particularly harmful either.

      Yes it does. Because of mutations, genes are constantly tested to see if they are important. Useless genes fizzle away after a relatively short length of time. If you see DNA in a cell, its there because its useful for something.

      The big point is that bits of DNA have to be useful, but not necessarily useful to *us*. It may be parasitic, and useful to itself.

      From what I hear about DNA, there is massive amounts of "junk" we carry around, and that we have to support by caloric intake.

      True.

      However that "junk" can really be thought of as a self-decompressing self-decrypting program that comes into affect essentially at birth and at various other times.

      Er no. Its just DNA. There is certainly nothing to do with compression or encryption going on.

      If you think about it computationally, there is a "limit" to the amount of "stuff" you can describe with DNA.

      This is getting bizzare.

      The fascinating thing is how it bootstraps, self-decompresses, self-decrypts, and self-modifies.

      You are confusing DNA with some sort of compressed InstallShield program!

    24. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by MrTangent · · Score: 2, Informative
      "I don't really know much about the christian mythology but the early Apple logos featured the whole tree"
      They also featured Sir Isaac Newton under said tree. It's not in reference to biblical events but in homage to Newton and scientific thought. Notice years later Apple created the first PDA which they called the Newton.

      See the image here:

      http://www.geektimes.com/michael/techno/computing/ hardware/products/apple/
    25. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by DunbarTheInept · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I would imagine there is a strong correlation between "prudeness" and "straightness" (And I say this as someone who is straight but I hopefully count myself as not being part of that prude correlation), or at least *declared* straightness. Therefore I would automatically disgregard any psychological study trying to determine how prevelent various sexual orientations are if that study is dependant on people volunteering information honestly.

      Also, anyone who is 'outcast' for being in the minority with regards to a particular opinion is more likely to be the sort who spends time thinking about that particular thing. (The average third-party supporter in politics probably spends more time thinking about politics than the general population, because he's constantly reminded that his politics differ from the majority. The average atheist spends more time thinking about religion than the average theist, because he's constantly reminded that his position differs from the majority. And, similarly, the average gay person probably spends more time thinking about his own sexuality than the average straight person does, again, because he's constantly reminded that his orientation differs from other people's.) Thus the willingness to volunteer answers to the questions this survey asks ends up being a filter that makes for a non-representative sample. A straight person is less likely to volunteer for such a study.

      --

      Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.

    26. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by trawg · · Score: 2, Funny

      Frogs changing sex!? Man, I hope noone ever accidentally incorporates frog DNA if they, for example, try to clone dinosaurs. Imagine the chaos that would ensue!

    27. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by Scarblac · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If there's a darwinian reason for homosexuality, I've never heard it

      (this is just some idea of mine, no idea if other people have had it as well)

      There are certain species of birds that live in colonies, who will help family members (siblings as well as nieces etc) raising their kids, if they don't have any themselves, or if their own didn't survive. This is obviously a survival trait - genes of birds whose genes lead them to help birds with similar genes have a higher chance to survive, because they in turn are more likely to be helped.

      Humans did most of their recent evolution in small groups of hunter/gatherers. I believe it may well be good for the group if a percentage of adults does not have children of their own, is not in competition with the other males in the group, but is available for hunting with the group, protection from predators/other tribes, et cetera.

      So such a group with one or two homosexuals could have a higher survival rate, as a group, even enough to make up for one or two fewer people with offspring of their own. Just an idea.

      --
      I believe posters are recognized by their sig. So I made one.
    28. Re:Killed by the society he saved. by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Also, you don't really need an evolutionarily useful reason. It may just be a side effect of the powerful brain. Nerds sitting at home at night, not mating, is hardly something that's the direct result of something evolutionarily useful.

      It always saddened me that gay people felt they had to scientifically justify their emotions. In a properly constructed free society, the people never grant the government the power to regulate sexuality in the first place. "Reasons" for anything are nothing more than scientific curiosities, and should have nothing to do with politics.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  2. It's quite a tragic story by Gay+Nigger · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I learned a lot about the theory that Alan Turing basically either laid the groundwork for or created wholesale himself in the course of my CS education. I'm in awe of his genius - truly this was a great man.

    However, I find it tragic and apalling that his life had to end the way it did. With the rampant homophobia in the UK at the time (and, some would say, such feeling still exists, albeit now driven underground), he had no choice but to end his life, else he would face a lifetime of torment and living in the shadows. It's really too bad that otherwise great nations do such stupid things and end up killing their greatest minds. Here's to you, Alan. *clink*

    1. Re:It's quite a tragic story by el-spectre · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Interesting... the fellow may be a troll, but this post is not. Turing DID kill himself, and most likely due to the ramifications of his homosexuality becoming public knowledge.

      --
      "Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
    2. Re:It's quite a tragic story by el-spectre · · Score: 2, Informative

      I should clarify... apparently once he went on trial a lot of doors shut to him, that's what I meant. Not that he was ashamed or anything. Perhaps I was being lazy :)

      --
      "Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
    3. Re:It's quite a tragic story by kfg · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's really too bad that otherwise great nations do such stupid things and end up killing their greatest minds.

      To combine this thread with the one on Atlantis and a sig:

      "I drank what? - Socrates

      There is really nothing stupider than a nation (and for all of their positive virtues democracies are the stupidest), and as Thoreau noted nations typically hold the idea that their best men are their mortal enemies.

      I'll join your toast to Alan, but expand it to include all the men and women who have suffered a similar absurdly tragic fate at the hands of their own.

      KFG

    4. Re:It's quite a tragic story by Rei · · Score: 2, Informative

      Respectfully, Ioslipstream, he didn't just get a parking ticket or something, he *developed breasts*. He was forced to be chemically castrated and put in house arrest after a trial that was little more than public humiliation, slander, and the complete trashing of his character and his life. Some people kill themselves to escape going to jail - what do you think Turing went through?

      --
      "99 dead duelists of Dios on the wall. 99 dead duelists of Dios! Take one's ring, pass it around..."
    5. Re:It's quite a tragic story by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 2, Funny

      So in other words, you don't know dick.

      Sorry. I have poor impulse control.

      --
      It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
  3. Overestimating his contributions by b0lt · · Score: 3, Insightful
    On the BBC article:
    Without Turing's genius, you may not be reading this caption
    Isn't this overestimating his contributions a bit? I acknowledge that he DID further computer science a significant bit, but would computers not exist if he did not contribute? Deducting from parallel evolution, doubtful.
    --
    got sig?
    1. Re:Overestimating his contributions by t_allardyce · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I think what they ment was without him, Hitler would be drinking tea at No.10, but he did have a pretty big impact.

      --
      This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
    2. Re:Overestimating his contributions by Hard_Code · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Science does not progress equally on all fronts. It goes in fits and spurts. It has been true in the past (perhaps moreso in the past) where the whimsy or intellect of a single person advanced a given field greatly, whereas if they personally were not involved the field might only advance a quarter of what it could, or be completely abandoned in favor of some more "fashionable" discovery. We are constantly finding diaries and notes of inventors and scientists who come accross an astounding discovery but since it isn't related directly to their research they disregard it to be rediscovered maybe 50 or 100 years later. I think it is entirely possible for things like this to happen.

      That being said, one of the major drivers FOR information technology was the sheer computation requires to advance in many OTHER fields, so computer science would probably have marched onwards.

      --

      It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
    3. Re:Overestimating his contributions by RedWizzard · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I think what they ment was without him, Hitler would be drinking tea at No.10, but he did have a pretty big impact.
      I know it's romantic to make Turing out to be the saviour of Britain, single-handedly winning the war against the Nazis, but it's not really realistic. I don't want to take anything away from Turing, who was a truly great man, but deifying him the way some around here are subtracts a lot from the achievements of the many other people who made significant contributions to the war effort. The fact is he wasn't the only genius at Bletchley, and if he hadn't been there they probably would have managed anyhow.
    4. Re:Overestimating his contributions by Bush+Pig · · Score: 3, Insightful

      While Church's lambda calculus is _mathematically_ equivqlent to a general-purpose Tuing machine, the particular model of computation used in a Turing machine is completely different to that used in Church's lambda calculus. You wouldn't get from Church's lambda calculus to a stored-program general purpose computer in a hurry, whereas it is implicit in Turing's work.

      The Church-Turing Thesis is all about computabily, not the process used to model it.

      --
      What a long, strange trip it's been.
    5. Re:Overestimating his contributions by RedWizzard · · Score: 4, Informative
      I doubt it. No Turing, no cracking of Enigma.
      And you're basing that on what? Turing wasn't the only person working on Enigma. Does the name Marian Rejewski mean anything to you? He was the Pole who figured out how Enigma worked and how to crack it. He did as much for the Allies as Turing. In fact Turing's job was to find a second method of attacking Enigma incase the Germans changed the procedures that allowed Rejewski's method to work. There is no evidence to suggest that only Turing was capable of figuring out that method. Other people had performed similar feats.

      Even with Turing's method not every message was broken (or even intercepted). When the Germans changed procedures and even the design of Engima (in the case of the 4-rotor Naval version) the Allies often lost the ability to break the codes for weeks or months at a time. Often it was captured codebooks that allowed the codes to be read. Without Turing's work other ways to gain the required intelligence would have been found.

      Even if the Allies had of lost the ability to read Enigma-coded messages entirely it is not clear that it would have lost them the war. It's extremely difficult to assess these sorts of scenarios, of course, but don't forget that Enigma intelligence was only one small part of the intelligence available to the Allies.

      No Enigma cracking, we lose the Battle of the Atlantic.
      Most Enigma cracking during the Battle of the Atlantic was based on captured codebooks, up until the start of February 1942. That is when the German navy switched to the 4-rotor Engima. Little progress was made against that until the capture of the new codebooks from U-559 at the end of October. Bletchley wasn't regularly cracking Enigma again until mid-December. So for 10.5 months during the most intense period of the Battle of the Atlantic no Enigma intelligence was available. Cracking Enigma was a big factor in winning the Battle of the Atlantic but it was not the only factor (radar was another for example), and it is not clear that we would have lost the battle without Engima.
  4. Tony Sale by Richard_L_James · · Score: 4, Informative

    Tony Sale's webpage - WW II Codes and Ciphers is well worth a visit also.

  5. Turing Test by daeley · · Score: 5, Funny

    [l337_h4x0r] alan d00d r u 4 real?

    [aturing@thegreatbeyond.net] Yes.

    [l337_h4x0r] u r a b0t.

    [aturing@thegreatbeyond.net] Damnit, for the last time, I am not a bot!

    --
    I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
    1. Re:Turing Test by Babbster · · Score: 3, Funny

      That would be a failure of the Turing test if only because everybody knows no real person use right words 'n marks (or "uses correct grammer and punctuation," if you will - I don't want to be accused of using a post bot).

  6. A truly brilliant man by ErichTheWebGuy · · Score: 4, Informative

    Here is another interesting link:

    http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathemati cians/Turing.html

    Not only did he (amongst others) crack the German Luftwaffe enigma codes, but those of the German navy, which were far more difficult. His work was pioneering on several fronts. Surely the world is a far better place for his having lived in it.

    --
    bash: rtfm: command not found
  7. German Enigma by acceber · · Score: 4, Informative

    Here is a link for Alan Turing and his work on ciphering and enigma machines.

  8. Turing test? by Zorak+Man · · Score: 5, Interesting
    --

    404 .sig not found
    1. Re:Turing test? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting
      You mean the Descartes Test?


      "For we can certainly conceive of a machine so constructed that it utters words, and even utters words which correspond to bodily actions causing a change in its organs (e.g., if you touch it in one spot it asks what you want of it, if you touch it in another it cries out that you are hurting it, and so on). But it is not conceivable that such a machine should produce different arrangements of words so as to give an appropriately meaningful answer to whatever is said in its presence, as even the dullest of men can do." (Descartes Discourse on Method, from 1637)
  9. Alan Turing's Machine in Cellular Automata by Scottm87 · · Score: 2, Informative

    While the turing machine is an amazing creation, I find the more recent work on Cellular Automata to be an interesting addition to the discoveries that worlfram made years ago.

    Cellular automata are desceptively simple rulesets that produce extremely complex patterns - through a rule that can be encoded into a 8 bit number, you can produce Turing machines, as well as chaotic patterns.

    To learn more about cellular automata, visit the MathWorld page

    1. Re:Alan Turing's Machine in Cellular Automata by nihilogos · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Turing's 1936 paper "On Computable numbers, with an application to the entsheidungsproblem"
      was the seminal work on artificial intelligence and computation. Cellular automata are more an outgrowth of this work. They aren't even that different from Turing machines - they maintain a state and have rules for changing that state depending on their neighbours.

      And Wolfram certainly hasn't discovered much that's impressed anyone else working in the physics / computer science world.

      --
      :wq
    2. Re:Alan Turing's Machine in Cellular Automata by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem isn't that Wolfram hasn't discovered anything impressive. The problem is that he doesn't acknowledge the work of others, and this borders on plagiarism. He writes a 1200 page supposedly scientific book without a "references" section! He almost makes it sound that he is the one who discovered cellular automata and he says outright that he is the first to notice that simple rules lead to complex behavior (this is not true: chaos theory existed before Wolfram came along). Finally, his "assistant", the person who did the real work in proving the only tangible result in the book (that rule 110 is universal), barely gets a mention in the "notes" section. If I were him, I'd be pissed. That concludes my Wolfram rant :)

  10. Turing's chess machine by MonkeyBot · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Maybe a bit off-topic, but Turing wrote the first chess machine on paper and played a well known player of his age. He always aimed to be a good player, but never quite got the hang of it. Guess we all have our own skills!

  11. some thoughts... by vmircea · · Score: 3, Informative

    If you care to read then feel free to look: here,the official biography if you don't know a lot about alan turing, just thought it would come in handy for some people. And, he definitely did make some decent contributions to our world. Who knows what our world would be like without him, some of his contributions to code / code breaking were very important, read the short biography on the site above, it can't hurt.

    1. Re:some thoughts... by Pentagram · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I think you understate his importance. He was far more than a code breaker.

      It is possible that he is the most important computer scientist of all time. He is of course against some strong competition, but in my opinion the only one in his league is Von Neumann. There is hardly a concept in computer science that was not at least considered in basic form by Turing.

      As for the war, the phrase "some decent contributions" doesn't do him justice. An argument can be made that he was the most important individual in WW2. That may be overstating it, but I would consider him to be one of the key persons. I think it is entirely possible that if you removed Turing from history, the Nazis could have ended up winning the war in Europe.

  12. Didn't know he had a statue by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I must wander down there some time... that it's of him holding the apple that killed him is rather thought provoking.

    However I can find an Alan Turing Road in Guildford but nothing in Manchester as the article implies.

    1. Re:Didn't know he had a statue by ctid · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's called "Alan Turing Way". It's out to the South East of the city, near the City of Manchester Stadium.

      --
      Reality is defined by the maddest person in the room
  13. Easily the greatest Mancurian of all time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Right up there with Shaun Ryder and Ian Brown. And that guy from the Inspiral Carpets, whatsisface.

  14. Re:On a side note by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The city of Manchester would ask that you avoid eating the apples.

    Well, the statue they made for him does feature the apple.

    I wonder if that's how Jobs, Woz, and Co. got their name? At very least, they must have known about the connotation. It seems kind of sick to me.

  15. 50/50 by fishbert42 · · Score: 4, Funny

    50 years since Turing's death... 50 hours since Reagan's death...

    Coincidence? Well, yeah, probably.

  16. Re:On a side note by bigattichouse · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Despite my tacky tone, I have always thought that his statue was one of the most reflective/thoughtful pieces of art I've ever seen. It's well done, if you don't know the story - but it is astounding the amount of reflection and thought that must be going through the man's mind as he stares at the apple.

    --
    meh
  17. A Great Man by Orinthe · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I don't know how it is in more diverse places, but it often seems like I'm the only gay man majoring in Computer Science, and I remember years ago it was such a relief to find that arguably the most recognized name in the field was gay.

    Although the nature of his persecution and suicide are unfortunate, I'm somewhat glad of the fact that it's often talked about--things like this and worse are still happening in many parts of the world.

    That said, I prefer not to dwell on it. I am merely grateful that I and others have such a man to look up to in a field that so often seems at present to have so little diversity.

    Here's to Alan Turing, a Great Man.

    --
    SELECT quote.text AS sig FROM quote NATURAL JOIN attribute WHERE attribute.description = 'witty';
    0 rows returned
    1. Re:A Great Man by andy55 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I am merely grateful that I and others have such a man to look up to in a field that so often seems at present to have so little diversity.

      Friend, you are mistaken. "This field" may have "little diversity" in its clothes, hairstyle, and fiction preferences, yes. But, in the arena in the mind, you are very mistaken. I've never seen some beautiful things--come in so many forms--from the minds of tech/CS/math people. It's just that, by mainstream's standards, many of their works and endeavors are dismissed over more glamorous and glittery things such as Britney Spears new video, crap prime time TV, a hot new sports car, a stylish outfit, or looking buf on the beach.

      IMHO, it's the artists, super-engineers, and super-scientists/academics who have the most diversity--it's just that, as you no doubt know, that diversity and pusle of life isn't seen with the eyes. It's seen with keen insight into their words, works, and actions. If the people you hang with are truely talented and driven but aren't "diverse" enough for you, then it's because you don't really know them.

    2. Re:A Great Man by hikerhat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Diversity means a mix of people from different privilege levels in society. Engineers are from the most privileged class in the world - middle and upper class straight white males. To suggest there is diversity because some people think slightly differently than others in this field is to ignore the problem, shirk responsibility, and contribute to the continued oppression of non-straight non-white non-male people.

    3. Re:A Great Man by Orinthe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I know I probably shouldn't respond defensively, but, well, that's me.

      I was thinking more about little diversity in terms of gender, sexuality, race... now, admittedly my school (Ohio University) isn't exactly known for its diversity (95% white), but it's my impression that overwhelming majority of people in CS programs are white guys. I know I can count the number of females I've seen in my CS classes on my hands. One hand, come to think of it, and I'm hardly polydactic.

      That said, I also never implied that my fellow CS majors were boring people, or that they were weren't diverse enough for me, just that it can be hard to feel like the only in your program of study. Having one of those people who are seemingly in every CS book ever be part of that same group (like Grace Hopper or Ada King for female figures) can be a huge deal.

      Oh, and no diversity in clothes, hairstyle and choice of fiction? I don't know where you go to school (if you are a college student) but in those areas at least my fellow CS majors are hardly homogeneous!

      --
      SELECT quote.text AS sig FROM quote NATURAL JOIN attribute WHERE attribute.description = 'witty';
      0 rows returned
    4. Re:A Great Man by Rorschach1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Turing's always been something of a hero to me, too.

      You might be surprised... I'm not sure about CS students in general, but the hacker subculture at least has more than its share of non-heterosexuals. Of course, gay nerds being generally as socially inept and introverted as straight nerds, that's not likely to do you much good. =]

    5. Re:A Great Man by andy55 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ...but it's my impression that overwhelming majority of people in CS programs are white guys. I know I can count the number of females I've seen in my CS classes on my hands. One hand, come to think of it, and I'm hardly polydactic.

      Fair enough. And you're right--along with other poster who pointed out the percise definition of diveristy--there is often a narrow spectrum of social demographics in the CS/math/tech/engineer community. Is this really a "problem" per se? Sure, it's not preferrable all things being equal, but in Turing's case, it's was tragic backwardness of that day's society/culture/norms that forced him to his suicide, not--I wager--any of his fellow work or class mates. I will say that I don't have any hard facts to back that up, so I'll end here.

    6. Re:A Great Man by hikerhat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The first post in this thread was in the context of social status. The subsequent post was a typical response of the privileged - "No, there's plenty of diversity here. We all think about math and science in different ways." A statement like that unfairly minimizes the weight of the first post's message. The message is "Hey - there is hope that I can achieve something in my chosen field and my accomplishment will not be overshadowed by prejudice against my sexual orientation." The white straight male never has to worry that his accomplishments will be minimized or ignored due to prejudice against his race, sex, orientation, or different way of thinking about math and science. That is a tremendous privilege.

  18. And remember! by Stormie · · Score: 5, Funny

    ..there's no umlaut in Türing!

    1. Re:And remember! by user+no.+590291 · · Score: 4, Funny

      There will be an umlaut in him later!

  19. Re:It's not a troll by connorbd · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Except that it has one teeny tiny problem of being a major factor in the man's life. It's why he committed suicide -- it's like trying to talk about Frederick Douglass without mentioning that he was multiracial.

  20. Buried his money, forgot where it was by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Turing buried some silver bars for safekeeping during the war, but forgot where he buried them.

    1. Re:Buried his money, forgot where it was by Richard_L_James · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And for anyone keen to go looking for Alan's lost cash stash... Chances are it will now be buried under one of Milton Keynes small number of round-a-bout's (join the dots!!!) or being guarded by the bizarre Milton Keynes concrete cows. No wonder Alan couldn't find it again !!

  21. Not really *but* by BlightThePower · · Score: 5, Informative
    whenever talk of WW2 codebreaking comes up, I do wish the Polish were more often given proper respect for their contribution, in particular the work of Marian Rejewski. He was the first to figure out the details of the commerical (class D) engima machine and was instrumental in constructing the first code breaking machines ('Bombas', hence the British and American use of the similar term, 'Bombes')

    Interestingly Rejewski made it first to France (where his work on Enigma continued) and then to Britain. Where his talents were wasted and he was apparently shocked after the war to learn what had gone on at Bletchley. After the war he went back to Poland and worked in a factory.

    It seems cryptanalysts often got the short end of the stick, alas.

    --
    Plays violent online games as: Nerfherder76
    1. Re:Not really *but* by connorbd · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yeah, they kinda did give Rejewski the shaft. In The Code Book by Simon Singh they tell his side of the story -- certainly Turing deserves all the credit he got, but the British shuffled him off into a minor codebreaking job nowhere near Bletchley.

      Highly recommended book, that. Lots of stuff, not just on Enigma and World War II, but a long way before and after, even including some interesting stuff on Champollion and Ventris (Egyptian hieroglyphics and Mycenaean Greek writing)... did you know RSA was invented independently in the UK but the discoverer couldn't talk about it until long after it had been reinvented in the US?

  22. Alan Turing info in spanish by Slayer_X · · Score: 2, Informative

    For spanish speakers, take a look at

    site1
    site2

    Btw, how many programs try to hack the turing machine? :-D

    --
    - Slayer_X
    http://www.slayerx.org/
    Lima
  23. Turing's AI studies probably created computers... by Angry+Black+Man · · Score: 5, Informative

    ...as we know them today. Turing believed that machines could be created that would mimic the processes of the human brain. He acknowledged the difficulty people would have accepting a machine to rival their own intelligence, a problem that still plagues artificial intelligence today.

    He likened new technology devices such as cameras and microphones to parts of the human body and his views often landed him in heated debates with other scientists.

    Turing believed an intelligent machine could be created by following the blueprints of the human brain. He wrote a paper in 1950 describing what is now known as the Turing Test.

    The test consisted of a person asking questions via keyboard to both a person and an intelligent machine. He believed that if computer's answers could not be distinguished from those of the person after a reasonable amount of time, the machine was somewhat intelligent. This test has become a standard measure of the artificial intelligence community.

    --
    the byproduct of years of oppression by the white man
  24. Re:On a side note by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 2, Informative

    I wonder if that's how Jobs, Woz, and Co. got their name? At very least, they must have known about the connotation. It seems kind of sick to me.

    Jobs used to work in an apple orchard. One time, in frustration over the ability of anyone at the company to come up with a name, he said, "I'm calling this company Apple Computer until someone can come up with a better name by the end of the day!"

    --
    In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
  25. Homage by NitsujTPU · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I just wanted to post in homage to the guy. I have difficulty calling anyone my hero, but if I did put people in such a position, Alan would be there.

    It's terrible that the world saw more value in vilifying him as a homosexual than eulogizing him as a genious.

  26. Statue with the apple by nwbvt · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Anyone else feel that is a tad bit inappropriate? I mean the man did some pretty amazing things in his life, isn't there a better way to memorialize him that by showing him about to kill himself? I doubt that was the proudest moment of his life. You can still make him a martyr while honoring his life, not his death.

    I mean the Lincoln memorial doesn't have a giant stone John Wilkes Booth creeping up on him...

    Maybe you Brits are just more morbid than us.

    --
    Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
  27. Re:Turing's AI studies probably created computers. by Geek+of+Tech · · Score: 3, Interesting

    As brilliant as he was, I don't get why Turing thought that mimicking the human brain would be a step toward intelligence. Sometimes I think the best way for a computer to prove intelligence would to not act like humans....

    --
    Stop the Slashdot effect! Don't read the articles!
  28. A bit different view by localroger · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I got the impression from what I've read that it wasn't so much the British who hounded him to death as the American CIA who couldn't stomach the idea of a fag having access to their classified goodies.

    Oh, and BTW I'm an American.

    --
    Brackets contain world's first nanosig, highly magnified:[.]
    1. Re:A bit different view by Eiki · · Score: 4, Informative
      Probably not. However, at the risk of being hounded to death myself as a Homophobe, and meaning no respect to the very great Turing or to any other homosexuals that suffered public disapproval or worse at this time, I suggest that the CIA would not have been entirely wrong in finding such a situation worrisome. It is now well known that the KGB emphasized recruitment of gays with sensitive knowledge, believing that they were consumed with bitterness toward their own cultures (and not without reason, either. Gays were treated even worse behind the Iron Curtain, but that was probably not known in the west at the time) and ready to defect. Indeed, 3 of the Cambridge ring were homo- or bi-sexual, as were many other burnt spies of the time. Denying security clearance to gays on such grounds was common enough for Clinton to issue an executive order banning the practice in 1995.

      Note: there is no evidence to indicate that Turing ever worked as an enemy spy, or that the CIA was involved in his death or was even worried about his loyalty. I am only suggesting that, in this case, the CIA would not have been acting out of pure bigotry, but out of a somewhat reasonable fear of exposure.

    2. Re:A bit different view by jeremyp · · Score: 3, Insightful

      At the time, homosexuality was illegal in the United Kingdom. That would have made Turing a target for blackmail in the eyes of the security organisations. In terms of the moral and legal climate of the time, they probably felt themselves to be totally justified in what they did.

      One of the reasons why he was treated so badly by the legal organisations (i.e. those that arrested and condemned him for breaking what is now considered an abhorrent law) is that they didn't know what he had done for his country during the war. It was still classified then.

      The tradgedy not that Turing brought this on himslef, but that people didn't know any better then.

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    3. Re:A bit different view by Geoff-with-a-G · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In general, intelligence agencies (be it KGB, CIA, Mossad, what have you) make note of anyone with sexual tastes not in the accepted mainstream, not just homosexuality, since this is something easy to exploit. It allows you to not only offer them something that is difficult for them to seek out on their own, but also to hold power over them by concealing it. At the time, homosexuality was far less publicly accepted than it is now, so it could be used as a pressure point. Understandably something like that could make the CIA nervous.

      Now, I wasn't present, so I can't tell you if that actually was what motivated them and what affected Turing, nor am I saying that this makes his experience any less awful or sad, just pointing out that there's reasoning behind such things.

  29. Didn't he invent... by KC7GR · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...the Turist Trap?

    --

    Bruce Lane, KC7GR,

    Blue Feather Technologies

  30. Re:On a side note by marnanel · · Score: 2, Informative

    There are photos of his statue here and here. Having seen these, I think I should go and see it in person some day.

    --
    GROGGS: alive and well and living in
  31. Re:gay? big deal? by Decaff · · Score: 4, Insightful

    so he was gay. big deal.

    For gay men like me, these days, in an increasingly civilised society, its not such a big deal. I can't yet marry a partner and its legal for me to be sacked because I am gay, but its not too bad.

    But within my lifetime, it has been a very big deal. Forty years ago, I would have been imprisoned as a criminal. Isn't that a big deal?

    For Alan Turing it was such a big deal it lead to his death.

    Think of all that we lost; all he could have given us, because in his time it was a big deal.

  32. Re:Symbolism of the poisoned apple by Wordsmith · · Score: 2, Funny

    Or maybe a computer indistinguishable from Turing ...

  33. Insightful? Bah. Of course Insightful != Factual by Zen+Programmer · · Score: 5, Informative
  34. Re:WW-II could have been lost... modern parallel by paul7e · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I wonder if any of the U.S. military's gay Arabic translators would have translated the warning about the next big terrorist attack if they hadn't been fired by the Bush administration just for being gay?

    I guess we'll never know.

    --
    Silly Rabbit, sigs are for kids.
  35. Re:It's not a troll by jnana · · Score: 4, Insightful
    No. Alan Turing did not commit suicide because he was homosexual. He committed suicide because he was forced to take hormones to such an extent that it wreaked havoc on his mind and body and made his life a living hell.

    Relgious-based intolerance was the root cause, not homosexuality. There is no problem with homosexuality if you live in a tolerant society, just as there are no problems with being black or a woman if you live in an enlightened society--not that we do, but you get the point.

    And by the way, if you think it's on-topic just because it's sort-of, half-way, in part related to the real cause, do you also think it is on-topic for me to point out that G. Dubya Bush was an alcoholic coke fiend who has the IQ of a two-by-four every time there is an article about him anywhere?

    Homosexuality didn't cause Turing's death any more than Bush's drug addictions caused him to be perhaps the stupidest elected official of modern times.

  36. Timing by eniu!uine · · Score: 2, Informative

    Doubtless the people at Bletchley could have done many things without Turing.. eventually, but would they have done it in sufficient time? The intelligence game during WWII was a race against time and the information was important enough to lend credence to the argument that without Turing the war may have been lost.

  37. Re:Turing's AI studies probably created computers. by rebelcool · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I work in intelligent robotics. The turing test is nonsense. It tests if you can create a electronic clone of the current human answerer, not 'intelligence'.

    Consider this, a human 4 year is intelligent by most people's measures. However, if you were to replace me with a 4 year old in a turing test, it would be obviously not myself and thus, not 'intelligent'.

    Similarly, if the turing test was conducted in chinese, and you asked me to fill in the part of the computer, I would also fail it.

    --

    -

  38. Slightly Off-Topic... (Enigma Machine Theft) by SlashdotKeefey · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Does anyone remember when one of the Enigma machines was stolen from Bletchley Park? Well, it is quite an amusing story (Aging BBC Link), about how it ended up in the hands of Jeremy Paxman after a nationwide manhunt. I just think it goes to show (and also perhaps defies one of the "why bother remembering Turing" posts from above) that Station X, Turing and Bletchley Park are still very much at the forefront of the British psyche. However, on the other side of the coin, and I think others may have posted something to the same effect, but the Government has little or no interest in the history surrounding Bletchley Park (Bletchley Park Official Website - Fund Request), and so this place is a dilapidated mess. Such a terrible, terrible shame.

  39. Here's to you, Alan Turing. by Grendel+Drago · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I remember learning about his life and death some years ago, when I was new to the field, just starting school. How many geniuses died early or tragically? Niels Henrik Abel, Oliver Heaviside, Srinivasa Ramanujan...

    What enraged me even more than the injustice of it all, the stupid, pointless unfairness, was the fact that he was well in the middle of his most productive years. Who knows what he would have come up with if he hadn't been hounded to death?

    It is as if Isaac Newton had been struck down in the middle of his life---how much would physics have lost? How dare they! I believe that we shall not see his like again.

    By Turing's death, we are all diminished.

    --grendel drago

    --
    Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
  40. Mancunian or Manchurian? by Nexus+Seven · · Score: 2, Informative

    A Mancunian is someone from Manchester.
    A Manchurian is someone from Manchuria in Northeast Asia.
    Besides which, the Inspiral Carpets are from Northwich in Cheshire.

  41. Loebner Prize is Turing test instantiated by wombatmobile · · Score: 4, Informative

    "In 1990 Hugh Loebner agreed with The Cambridge Center for Behavioral Studies to underwrite a contest designed to implement the Turing Test. Dr. Loebner pledged a Grand Prize of $100,000 and a Gold Medal for the first computer whose responses were indistinguishable from a human's. Each year an annual prize of $2000 and a bronze medal is awarded to the most human computer. The winner of the annual contest is the best entry relative to other entries that year, irrespective of how good it is in an absolute sense."

    Further information on the development of the Loebner Prize and the reasons for its existence is available at Loebner's web site.

  42. Turing, Godel, Einstein, what a time! by 12357bd · · Score: 3, Informative

    Turing's time was fantastic, just imagine two 'monsters' like Turing and Godel working toghether!
    ie) Turing liked to view 'intelligent' systems as complex formal systems, when asked about how 'free' or 'creative' behaviour could emerge from a formal system, he simply stated than error conditions on physical objects are also inavoidable, so although formal systems are of course deterministic, no real implementation can be said to be free of defects, and so it cannot be said to be fully deterministic..

    What's in a sig?

    --
    What's in a sig?
  43. Turing the biologist by hung_himself · · Score: 2, Informative

    Actually, he wrote a pretty influential paper on the Turing hydra where he described how a reaction/diffusion mechanism could give rise to stable standing wave pattern of concentrations - that is, if your hydra had its head connected to its tail, and you didn't mind infinite concentrations. Still, this was the basis of quite a few theories of the formation of patterns such as zebra stripes.

    Although most of these models of these are almost certainly wrong (eg. a simple double gradient probably controls hydra formation)- it was a good idea...

  44. Apple computer rainbow logo by mdrejhon · · Score: 2

    Incidentially, the early (1980's) Apple Computer rainbow logo roughly corresponds to the rainbow flag symbol used by the gay community.

    Another coincidence, eh?

  45. Re: Nutters by FunkyRat · · Score: 2, Insightful
    "Doesn't stop a whole lot of nutter Christian fundies from believing otherwise though"
    Was that a necessary comment? It doesn't stop a bunch of nutter Islamic Fundamentalists from trying to kill us just because we are Christians or Jews, or just plain old secularists trying to live under a rule of law instead of their rules of god via the prophet Mohammed. But regardless, is it relevant to this discussion?

    You're absolutely right. I apologize for letting one of my personal bugaboos from shining through. It would have been perhaps better to say "nutter religious fundamentalists."

    As far as relevance to the conversation I shouldn't have just tagged that line onto the end of my post. I think what I was trying to convey at the time was that religious or superstitious beliefs are often manifested in medical practice and policy, even in the modern day U.S. There is a tendency to the medicalization of culturally unacceptable behaviors.

    While we often see this in fundamentalist Christian attitudes towards homosexuality (and stem cell research, the "war" on drugs, and a host of other issues), that particular group should not be singled out, although the present degree of their politcal power in the U.S. at present brings their beliefs to the fore. However, this certainly doesn't exempt good old secular humanists from effecting medical policy and practice based on beliefs rather than science. Others have pointed out the growing trend in what might be over-medicating children for questionable diseases such as ADD and depression which are fine examples. Another would be reluctance of the medical community to understand the full extent of AIDS in the early 80s choosing to think that it was a "gay disease."

    The "obesity epidemic" is one particular meme that seems to be effecting medical policy and practice on a global level. Here in particular we see a cultural intolerance of what should be a neutral descriptor ("fat") fueling a massive amount of questionable research (based mostly on correlative evidence often funded by special interest groups) driving public policy.

    Singling out just religious fundamentalists for my scorn is more revealing of my personal biases than accurate or relevant, as all cultures have a tendency toward instantiating their norms and mores into medical policy and practice. Thanks for calling BS on that line in my post.