Slashdot Mirror
Fahrenheit 9/11 Discussion
xerid writes "I saw Fahrenheit 9/11 last night, and the theatre was packed & sold out for each showing. Today, I read on Michael Moore.com about the movie breaking records. However, what I haven't seen was coverage on Slashdot, about the movie's opening day." I saw the film on friday and was really impressed. But while it speaks much truth, and has many funny parts as well as truly heartbreaking ones, I don't know how many votes it will sway. But since there is very little other news so far today, why not talk amongst yourselves!
Worst front page slashdot post ever.
s chlussel_014.htm
News for nerds?
Oh well.
Whatever your opinion of the Iraq war, Moore isn't the most reliable source of information:
http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20021119.html
http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
http://www.politicalusa.com/columnists/schlussel/
If anyone cares to read some REAL research and analysis from an anti-war perspective, why not try the Cato Institute? http://www.cato.org/current/iraq/index.html
Taking Michael Moore seriously is like getting all your news from Kurt Loder and that "Sway" guy on MTV.
Michael Moore doesn't matter. Idoit.
The thing about Michael Moore is that he lives here in America, yet hates everything about it. If he hates it so much, I personally would be honored to buy him a first class one way ticket to anyone on Earth as long as he doesn't come back. There has been a person in my family in every single war since the American Revolution, and they want what I want, Freedom, which I believe we are currently protecting with our actions in the middle east. I live an hour fromt he Mexico border where thousands cross over illegally to come here to FREEDOM and PROSPERITY. These people are willing to risk their lives everyday to come here, so obviously there must be some good here in America so God Bless it.
Good parents probably should take their kids to see documentaries, especially ones like this which tell them exactly how man has fucked up in the past and how we're destroying out own kind for profit-a cautionary tale, if you will.
By summer it was all gone...now shesmovedon. --
I used to like moore until he became a self-serving messiah of the wackos....
www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com
www.moorewatch.com
---- suck it trebek
arguing Michael Moore on issues reminds me of what Munger says, "Don't wrestle with pigs. You'll both get dirty, but the pig will have fun."
I'm not picking on you by any means, because you are NOT the first one to do this, but have you noticed how whenever something happens they have to pick out why it was "first" or really damn important? But then they fail miserably?
You'll be listening to the news, "this was the FIRST blah blah blah in 2 years! Isn't that amazing?!". Where blah blah is something that happens every year anyway, it just happened to be better than the year before, but not the year before that. It's like a hook, to try to get you interested in the story. I'm sure there's a word for it in reporting/writing circles, but since they do it on EVERY damn story, it just gets drowned out.
Perform an experiment next time you listen/read the news. See how many times they do that. Once you start to notice it, it gets really annoying.
-- Having a Creationist Museum is like having an Atheist place of worship
"Now, if you consider every single news flash regarding, oh say, SCO, more important than a movie that I believe will make a fundamental impact on the future of how politics are played out in America, the fine, avoid this thread."
Actually, I consider every single news flash regarding SCO more importan than a movie that you believe will make a fundamental impact on the future of how politics are played out in America, because I believe Michael Moores Fahrenheit 9/11 is little more than a heavily biased satire with truth buried so deep beneath the surface of the film that it is impossible to know what to trust and what to discard as satire.
Moore himself has expressed that the film is a satire and not all of it is true, but he has not told us which parts are and are not meant to be taken seriously. That being the case, how can you take any of it seriously?
Also, your [command? request?] for people who oppose Moore to avoid this thread is rather silly, don't you think? It seems to me that this might be the discussion they've been waiting on.
Let me guess, you'd use the LA Times or the Village Voice as your references?
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
How can anybody go see a movie from a liar like Michael Moore. The fat bastard has to fabricate everything he does. While everyone is up in arms he making a nice big fat profit. Why does he need these profits you may ask. One thing. To buy the worlds supply of twinkies. I don't even think he's really an american. He's probably from canada, or maybe france. All that I know is you should go buy some stock in the company who makes twinkies.
NYT today has a Frank Rich article comparing Moore to John Ashcroft. Clearly, Ashcroft wins at being the new Goebbels. Every criticism of Moore leveled in this thread (dishonesty, self-aggrandizing, polarizing) can be more accurately aimed at Ashcroft.
The only difference between Moore and Ashcroft? YOU PAY ASHCROFT'S SALARY! He does NOTHING but promote himself as your savior, and he does it ON YOUR NICKEL! At least Moore doesn't suck my blood to pay for his editorial campaign!
Pay a visit to this page and read for yourself how this fat anti-American communist slob distorts facts to "prove" his radical leftist agenda and brainwash the masses who know no better.
Actually, your statements prove just how biased *your* media is to the left. Progressive? Look up the definition. I hardly think left wing extremism qualifies as progress. This falls right in line with calling the wholesale brutal murder of unborn children a "choice". I sure wish the left would quit glossing over the ugly facts with pretty terms to make them seem more palatable.
I could not bring myself to give this propagandist one red cent. I think I'll avoid the real brainwashing and leave this piece of trash alone. Even some Liberals would concur...
I don't think we should even consider this movie a documentary.
t ills.shtml
It should be classed as a propaganda film, and even Michael Moore has admitted publicly this intention more or less.
A good comparison for what Moore did in Fahrenheit 9/11 is the infamous Nazi (yes, I know it'll end up invoking Godwin's Law =) ) propaganda film Der ewige Jude (The Eternal Jew), produced under close supervision of Nazi Propaganda Minister Josef Goebbels and released in 1940 in German theaters. Der ewige Jude uses a lot of hot button images to manipulate the audience into support the Nazi progrom against the Jews, which of course led to six million Jews being killed in the Holocaust. You really have to wonder did Moore watch Der ewige Jude when he produced Fahrenheit 9/11.
You can see an excellent summary and still images of Der ewige Jude from this web page:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/der-ewige-jude/s
If Moore had stated right from the start this movie was intended as propaganda and not as a documentary, the movie wouldn't be so reviled by everyone outside of the hard Left-leaning political crowd.
(getting off soapbox)
I'd say that's a bit backwards from the labels usually given.
This is a typical trick of the left. when they know they are lieing or twisting facts to an extreme they launch a preemptive "I'm a victim" or "I'm going to sue anyone who claims I am lieing" process.
Sorry, but if anyone believes the tripe that is in this film needs to have their heads examined. Some very well know liberals and Bush haters think very little of this film.
The best article on SLATE
http://politics.slate.msn.com/id/2102723/
His own film contradicts itself many times. He has to go out of his way to make the President look like a bufoon to make it stick. When his story gets really stupid he just goes faster hoping no one pays enough attention.
Sway voters? No, he will put off more voters than he gains. You do not gain voters by spewing ludicrous hate like MM.
MM is a marketing genius, but he never ever let a fact get in his way of making a buck.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Well, darn, he also made more money than Gigli, so I guess that makes the film wildly successful.
Like I said, let's see how the hit-piece^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hmovie is doing in a few weeks before we start raving about its success.
There's a fundamental problem in US politics. It's that there are only 2 parties.
Yes, I agree. But I don't think the issue is that everything is always black or white. Its that both parties try and stay the exact same shade of grey. Mean Voter Theorum says they have to stay dead center of the political spectrum to stay in power and thats what they do. Ideology be damned.
And here is a rebuttal to the rebuttal. That K5 article was nothing more than an Moore apologist's rant.
Disclaimer: IANAL. This post is, however, legal advice, and creates an attorney-client relationship.
No need to bring Hitler into it... if bashing the commander in chief means you don't support the troops, does that mean the conservatives abandoned our soldiers in Serbia during the Clinton adminstration? Interesting how all these little rules only get applied to the "other side"...
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
It's worth noting that he was killed just a few days before re-election in the Senate. He was going to run for a third term and was considered a shoe-in.
Details can be found here. Under the heading: "Wellstone Death Complicates Senate Battle".
Interestingly, the Republicans own the Senate right now. We all know that a Republican Senate virtually a REQUIREMENT for any President hoping to wage a war [unilaterally]?
Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. It's the only thing that ever has.
This movie is the most outrageous display of propoganda. And the movie is on the verge of being the target of a laible suite. The movie is so full of half truths, I suggest that anyone even considering to take this movie at face value make a list of the top 3 things that outraged themselves and go do research on the issues. Michael Moore is like Howard Stern with a video camera, he just put whatever opn the screen for shock value using selective editing and the premice of content control to state his particular message. Since Michael Moore does not believe in private property i believe that his movie should make its way onto the internet as a free download.
The movie just came out. I don't know about you but Moore responded to valid criticisms of his movie with "Have you seen it? No? Then you can't talk about it." even though much of the content of the movie has been public for weeks.
Furethermore, since Moore has consistently been misleading and untruthful in the past, what's to assume he'd change his tune.
Even if I didn't think Moore was a big, fat, pathetic loser who takes out his own depression on everyone around him with his non-stop torrent of hate speech, I'd still have a hard time believing anyone who was so full of himself that he must weigh 300 pounds. What else could explain that he so detests the very country where someone like him could become so rich and famous?
There is no doubt in my mind that he is using his "satire" and "mockumentaries" to blur the lines between truth and his warped anti-American political views in order to to sway the ignorant, or more commonly these days, people too angry to bother with facts or reason. Any legitimate points he might make (however few) are far outweighed by his gross manipulation and distortion of facts.
I have one suggestion to Bush's critics: If Bush is so bad, what would you do better? Even his opponent in the presidential race can't answer that question. Stop hating so much and start coming up with answers of your own. I'm so sick of hearing what's wrong with the USA and the current administration with no reasonable alternatives being offered except "Hate the rich!" and "Kowtow to the U.N.!"
Let's hear some ideas for a change.
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
" you can't say Moore is distorting what so-and-so says when so-and-so is saying it right into the camera." Sure he can you jack ass. Context you dumb shit. Leaving things out that illumiate something someone said you asshat. Showing things out of order.... Ever hear of editing? It's propaganda plain and simple, whether Bush is bad or not. It's an emotional appeal which is completely invalid, and has no other purpose than to line Moore's pockets and push his agenda.
> "We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically
> intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed,
> too. Otherwise, they will turn out to be outright traitors." -- Ann
> Coulter, 02/26/2002
Besides the obvious retort of "And you object to exactly what part of that statement?" I'll be a little more serious.
You should NEVER take one of Ms. Coulter's tag lines out of context. You really have to read the entire column it was in to understand where she was going with it. That one you quote above is a good one, but not even the most extreme line from her. The one that got her dropped from National Review (A mistake by a on overly timid editor IMHO.) was even better. The one about "Invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christanity." on 9/13/01 was priceless. But I actually read that one and the column as a very rational discussion for the time and didn't actually end up advocating a "Last Crusade" solution.
Although personally I think that if the Islamic world doesn't actually start trying to 'discourage' its more extreme elements I'm about to decide they really don't disagree with those elements, say screw em all and lets just outlaw Islam in that part of the world the same way Nazism is outlawed in Germany. If the bastards want to hate our guts we should oblige them and actually give them a reason.
Democrat delenda est
I bet you think that Rush Limbaugh is a god.
... there are a lot of ignorant americans that do because they listened to Bush's terror scare: buy duct tape speech!
What gives you Dubya lovers the right to lie to your countrymen and the world (where are the WMD's?) yet opposing views should be held back?
All documentaries are biased.
The Victor always rights the history.
Moore has simply shown the point of view opposite to that being shoved down your throat by Dubya.
In fact, if you would listen more to the opposing side, perhaps you yourself would be less biased, and accept that Bush has been manipulating you just as much as you think Moore is trying to do.
Have a closet full of Duct Tape?
George Bush + Linux = "I will not let information get in the way of the fight against Windows"
Both sides?
You mean Moore's side and Moore making fun of the other side?
Moore does not even mention 'the other side'. He ignores it. Like the 50% of Americans are complete morons. (Which is actually what he says to foreigners when he gives interviews.)
To Moore, if you don't agree with him, you're stupid. To Moore, if a fact does not support his viewpoint, he ignores it. Yes, a fine, fine journalist....
Favorite
This film demonstrates just how desperate the loony left have become in this country. It is sheer propaganda and nothing more. I'm not a big fan of Bush, but then this movies isn't really about Bush. This movie is a weapon of propaganda in the ongoing ideological war being fought between leftists and conservatives. The leftists have been losing badly for some time now and this movie is the result of their desperation.
The far left has forsaken even the appearance of having anything reasonable to say. They have replaced honest interpretation of the facts with vitriol and attempts at emotional manipulation.
This is not the end for them, but it is the beginning of the end. The more loud and desperate they become, the more you can be certain they feel public opinion turning against them. The Soviet Union is gone and the remnants of its 5th column in this country are on their way out as well.
Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
Pretending they didn't die is not?
For a while now I suspected that delusion was the essence of conservatism. One more datum supporting that conclusion.
He's the perfect limousine liberal, except he looks and dresses like a skid row slob.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
its always odd as an "outsider" to watch americans. anyone that speaks out about the government is branded a radical, an extremist. round here in canada this is absolutely normal, the evening news has all sorts of people saying all sorts of critiques about the government and its not odd for people to talk about it on the street.
What the fuck are you talking about? Have you ever even been to the united states?
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I'm waiting for this movie to get released since it does the same thing to Moore that Moore does in his Mockumentaries.
Watch the trailers to see Moore on the defensive.
_ _ _ Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!
> wow, so you voted for Bush, right?
Actually yes. But in 2000 it wasn't really a committed vote, much like my votes for Dole and Bush the Elder. More a NO to Gore and the ecofreaks he would have installed throughout the government. This time it is going to be a no hesitation YES for Mr. Bush. And I have already backed it up with cash once and plan to give more, both to Bush Cheney 2004 and the Party. And if we can get a viable Senate candidate (Louisiana politics can be 'interesting'.) this season I'll toss money their way also. Playing politics with national security seriously pisses me off in case I haven't made it plain yet.
Rooting for Usama and Saddam to score points in an election is beyond the pale and it is now clear that the fastest way to win this war the Islamists have declared on us is to end the Democratic party as we have known it. Usama and his scraggly band of misfits wouldn't last ten minutes against an America that was firmly united against them. They know their only hope of victory is a Vietnam style political win in Washington; Deny them that hope and their movement collapses. The whole kill people and blow up shit strategy in Iraq is all about giving their Democratic allies (enemy of my enemy sort of ally, not actually friends) in DC the ammo they need to get us to pull out. So EACH AND EVERY CASUALTY WE HAVE SUFFERED IN THE LAST SIX MONTHS can be fairly laid at John Kerry and Terry McCaulif's feet.
Even Klingons know not to fight in a burning house, shame Dean, Kerry and that father of all idiots Moore can't figure that one out.
Democrat delenda est
Most Americans are clueless when it comes to global politics. I understand that most of the rest of the world is further to the left. It is for exactly that reason that I wish the world would leave America alone and let it do its own thing. We are the only significant "right-wing" nation out there. Let us have that. Anyone in the world who wants to live in a left-wing world can go somewhere else.
I am voting for Bush in 2004. I hope you will too.
There is a problem though when you get your false assumptions by ignoring evidence that goes against your predrawn conclusions, and consider unreliable evidence most important because it agrees with them.
Indeed that sounds like a very accurate assessement of Moore's "documentary" making style.
Where unions as you know them are a state guaranteed right and hold 50%-1 vote on every company board.
Good! Just what I need to try to keep my company from going under: A bunch of high school dropouts who make $35/hr doing work that any chimpanzee could do, telling me how I need to run my car company so that I can compete with cheap labor in third-world shitholes like Korea, China and France.
Buzz Hargrove (leader of Canadian Auto Workers union) once described a business plan for Chrysler by analogy to an episode of Cheers. Yes, that's right, he's using sitcoms to describe (and probably understand) economics. As a shareholder in DaimlerChrysler, it galls me to no end that idiots like that are allowed to have any voice whatsoever.
Screw the unions: If they don't like their jobs on the assembly line, I would invite them to quit and find work elsewhere. Nothing pays them what they perceive to be enough? Then they can go back to school so that they have some actual marketable skills or paper evidence of their work ethic.
I'd fire them all in a heartbeat.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
What sort of crack are you smoking? Did you even read the parent's link before posting? There are a large number of "specific facts" in the article. Check your own facts before flaming someone else.
If all you've got are kneejerk reactions, how do you propose to have a serious debate? Read the article. THEN, and only then, come back here and contribute something useful.
Until that point you're just wasting everyone's time.
You're right. No president has had much power since FDR federalized everything. The bureaucracy has since taken over. Thank you liberal America for reducing the president to little more than a symbolic figurehead.