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GPS on Mars?
Roland Piquepaille writes "SPACE.com published two days ago an article named "Red Planet Wayfinder: A GPS System for Mars." You'll read that NASA researchers are studying a 'global positioning satellite (GPS) system around Mars that could also function as a communications network.' This would imply 'a constellation of microsatellites, or Microsats, and one or more relatively large Mars Aerostationary Relay Satellites, or MARSats,' according to the Mars Network website at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL). This sounds like a neat idea, but there are several issues here. First, the JPL site mentioned above has not been updated since 1999. Then, there is no mention of such a mission at NASA's Mars exploration program website. So, here is my question: is this a recycled 4-year old article? In this overview, you'll find some spectacular images and more indications leading to think that the article was written in 2000. And please note that a Slashdot reader asked last December 'Whatever Happened To The Mars Network?' without receiving an adequate answer."
I, for one, certainly do NOT welcome our Earthling satellite overlords.
-Marvin
"And please note that a Slashdot reader asked last December 'Whatever Happened To The Mars Network?' without receiving an adequate answer."
And why would he? If NASA and JPL don't update their sites with current information or release info to the public, did he thing that some
[rant] Suprisingly his question isn't on the "ask slashdot" page where you get all sorts of "Hey
Trolling is a art,
Now, privatized probes could be launched and we land could be surveyed and claims issued.
Seriously, this could be usefull for a manned mission. Landmarks may be hard to recognize
If anyone has been watching NASA TV, there's a killer animation about how they launch supplies and a return vehicle in stages.
Very neat.
/me sips his coffee and ponders a new sig...
I reckon we will find a giant face, and it will turn out to the home of the sectoids, and it turns out they created us and influenced our evolution, but then we shoot the eye thing and win the war, until 40 years later they come back in an underwater form. What do you reckon? What odds am I offered?
Would the cost really be worth it? I don't really see much indication in the article that it'd give us any great advantages for the cost. Still, it's an awfully neat idea... I wonder if my Garmin will work if I someday get to take that incredible excursion. :)
I think I'll have bigger things to worry about than where I am. Things like breathing and keeping warm come to mind.
Just thought we should get our TLAs (Three Letter Acronyms) straight.
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
Sounds like a waste to me. I mean, are we really going to be sending that many more rovers before we start considering sending a human exploration team?
Wouldn't it make far more sense to a) put people back on the moon, b) work out if, in actual practice, astronauts require GPS systems in such a situation and then c) put GPS satellites around the moon? This whole fascination with Mars thing sounds strange to me when we have a much closer, much easier, much less prone to failure environment in which we can perfect things before heading out further into the solar system.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
on mars, I really don't see the need for knowing where I am on the red planet to 3 meter (or even 1 kilometer) accuracy.
Without people or autonomous units on the planet, why spend the money now? It'll be cheaper later. (Space elevator, privatized space missions, etc.)
We don't even have vehicles that we can lose! They all move too slow to just wake up and be off the map.
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
I wonder if they are going to use the same variable accuracy system like here on earth. we wouldn't want anyone to accurately attack utopia planita :).
Honestly, I dont see much of a need for GPS on mars. It's not like we need a precise 10 meter point of exactly where a rover is. As long as the rover sees where it's at it's pretty much what we want out of it.
I can see a use for a DSN (Deep Space network) to consolidate mars radio traffic into one higher powered more redundant network, but GPS would be a pain to make work on mars. This is especially true with the amount of satelites needed, not to mention there would have to be a way to sync all of their internal clocks to give a precise reading which would be tough from an hour away.
In Soviet Russia, Trojan exploits YOU!
Want to bet the original acronym was just "MARS" (MARS Aerostationary Relay Satellites), but some PHB didn't get the lame, overused joke?
Man, what were you thinking? Now the hounds are loose!
... ...
:)
now that is a big latency
I think I would be a waste of money for NASA to build a Mars GPS. The Europeans would not be satisfied with it and would want to build their own.
an ill wind that blows no good
Building a Navstar-like constellation around Mars, while the obvious benefits may be elusive outside of a few probes in the next few years, will keep everyone focused on Mars itself. This can be only a good thing.
The more we send to Mars, the more likely that there'll eventually be a manned mission. People don't like to abandon projects once they've invested a great deal of time and effort.
Sure, I know there's a lot of "more useful" and "efficient" things to spend the money on. Then again, who wants to be "efficient", let's explore!
First, such a system would be helpful to a human exploration team. Second, most human mission proposals include sending supplies (or machines to manufacture those supplies) on ahead. Getting, those machines together and getting the humans to them would be helpful. Third, there's a lot of science that can be done by carefully mapping the orbits of the Mars Positioning System - it's a great way to find mascons and the like. Fourth, yeah, they probably will be sending a lot more rovers, including aerial drones that would really benefit from a GPS-like system.
This sig seemed like a good idea at the time....
I read an idea awhile back about making GPS receivers that could tune to the different frequencies of pulsars and use those to figure location.
The theory behind it is that the pulses are very accurately predictable, and that they could be used just like the clock pulses coming from GPS satellites. Why not develop something like this instead of spending a ton of money to put up a new satellite network.
I realize the satellite network could be used for other things also, but if they are looking for coordinate data, the pulsars are already there and all that would be needed would be to design a receiver.
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Oh, wait, GPS is more than just a fancy toy?!
Yet another daring spaceproject just to make space availible for rich people who could spend their money on better things! This will never lead to anything good. We have problems down here to take care of first. We should solve ALL our problems before even thinking of going into space! Space is a waste of our taxmoney! We should not only stay where we are, indeed, we should strive to turn the clock back! I want to live in a cave and eat raw fish.
Odds are nobody cares about your little joke...
Or possibly...
The martians have watching our politics, our wars, our genocides, and what we'll find instead is...
Aieeeee!
Allegedly real newspaper headline from 1998:
Man Struck by Lightning Faces Battery Charge
now that we have 2 planets with sats, could we use that to start a solare system position system, just put a gps system around venus and Mercury we now have 4 points to work with, so we can get our 3d postion in the solar system
Advocates of the flying car, personal nuclear generator, and personal rocket packs send their condolences to anyone holding out for hopes of an interplanetary network anytime soon.
hilarious...
Finally a use for all those dorman irridium sattelites! Send them to Mars! Just alter their orbit, one by one until thay are on a 10 year trajectory towards martian orbiotalinsertion.
My Mars GPS is measured in AUs!
"Derp de derp."
I never saw Red Planet, but I'll take your word for it. But since Robinson's work predates that movie, I wouldn't be surprised if the screenwriter borrowed it from Robinson. Then again, perhaps both of them lifted it from a third source.
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
I guess the real question is- Are we? This project hasn't had it's web page updated since 1999- and all of the engineers were laid off...
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
What folks fail to recognize is that there is a huge (read costly) Earth-based infrastucture to VERY ACCURATELY measure and predict GPS satellite orbits. This information is beamed up to the individual GPS sattelites, which in turn is broadcasted to GPS users in "ephemeris messages". These messages change anywhere from 2 to 6 hours. Seems like it would be quite a bit of work to perform this for the proposed Martian GPS system. Accurately measuring the orbital parameters of man-made sattelites Pparked around Mars from Earth-based sensors isn't a walk in the park. One certainly wouldn't obtain the accuracy of the Earth GPS, nor would I expect the reliability.
I want to be the first to plant a geocache on Mars. I'll make it easy and leave it right out in the open, it'll be a 5,1. Tought to get there, but easy to find when you do arrive. And I'd put a travel bug that is trying to get to Ursala Major . . .
Wouldn't you like to be a pepper, too?
At a velocity of ten meters per hour, do we really need a GPS to avoid losing the rovers?
Luckily here on Earth we're doing better than that.
Satellites which are stationary relative to an observer on Mars should oughta be called "Areostationary", not "Aerostationary".
This is because the Greek name for Mars is Ares, and conventionally, greek names are used for the roots of these sorts of things.
See, e.g., here
I know, I know, English is a living language and the spelling error didn't change the meaning, so I should shut up. Pendants like me are domed to definately loose this rediculus fite.
2*3*3*3*3*11*251
I think the idea is great. Probes that we send to the Red Planet will be able to utilize the network, even when on the dark side of the planet. If our dreams of terraforming the planet ever materialize, then this would also be a boon.
However, deploying such a network would be a waste if it is not utilized. I'd hate to see funds wasted.
On the other hand, if it is deployed, it could only mean that NASA/JPL is specualting on their prospects. Exciting!
Fifth, profit!!!
Despite the first reply, I remeber X-Com. Good call.
Aerostationary? Not moving in air??
Perhaps they mean areostationary (not moving with relation to Mars; the martian equivalent of geostationary).
I disagree. The UN is a pack of snivelling mice that couldn't wipe their own asses without holding three committee investigations to analyze the ass-wiping thread a few posts earlier, so they'd be pretty much useless in the apocalypse. Maybe the Beast's pet hamster?
Cheers, it was a classic game :-) Always good to see other fans around.
Now, the parent refers to Mars GPS as Ares positioning System. Does that mean we should rename Earth GPS, TPS (Terra Positioning System)?
I'd be worried that you'd have to fill out a report (with a cover) each time you use the system
After dropping a Purple Microdots and snorting a couple of lines of Crystal Meth, this is all starting to make sense. Yeah...bring it on!!! Yours Truely, Drug Addict
How about some Wifi!
Vehicals traveling on mars would benefit a great deal by having a high accuracy. It would allow ground stations to give very specific coordinates to tell the robot to go anywhere without having to keep an eye on it or give it direction and distance commands. It's alot easier and faster to correct for 3 meter than 1km accuracy once it's done making it's inital move from point A to point B.
It's rediculous how many "well *I* can't see a need for it so it must be useless" posts get moderated up as insightful.
"why spend the money now?"
So we can benefit and do research now.
Ben
Work Safe Porn
On another thought, a slightly more enhanced, outward looking system could be put into place for scanning the rest of space while Mars and Earth are on opposite sides of the sun. Or this could be used just to get a view from farther away, or what have you.
End the FUD
I call dibs on the first geocache on Mars!
GPS satelites are fine as long as we get the military to put in SA, so we can deny the Martins any ability to use them in a counter-attack.
Isn't this like someone in 1650 proposing a continental highway system for the New World?
--- Ban humanity.
... now we have to land unmanned probes on the planet without smacking a LMO (Low Mars Orbit) satellite on the way down. I know it doesn't happen on Earth, but come on, the record for getting kit onto Mars without dropping it isn't exactly great now, is it?
Dear Roland, While I do appreciate your interest in SPACE.com, I do feel it necessary to respond to the allegations that I have merely recycled a story and mission from 2000. This, in fact, is not the case as I will mention following. Your focus on previous Mars Network (Marsats and Microsats) constitutes one paragraph of a story targeted at future NASA missions and efforts. It was included - the images as well - to serve as a reference for the work that is going on today. The passage you refer follows: Previous network designs called for a constellation of small microsatellites called Marsnet to serve Mars explorers while a larger spacecraft, Marsat, would relay data between the planet and Earth. That is the only mention of such a system. Note the following: But current studies expect the system to grow gradually from piggybacked services aboard future science spacecraft to a dedicated platform, such as the anticipated Mars Telecommunications Orbiter set for 2009 - the first satellite specifically designed to facilitate communications with another world. You'll find that the bulk of this article highlights current efforts for Mars navigation and communication, and their usefulness for future exploration. You're allegation that Michael Mendillo has listed no research is absolutely false. His latest paper - cited in my article - was published in Radio Science in April of this year. Ionospheric effects upon a satellite navigation system at Mars Michael Mendillo Center for Space Physics, Boston University, Boston, Massachusetts, USA RADIO SCIENCE, VOL. 39, RS2028, doi:10.1029/2003RS002933, 2004 You can find an abstract of the research here: http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2004/2003RS002933 .shtml
While I appreciate your interest in both Mars and SPACE.com, I am disappointed that you did not contact me directly to air your concerns, instead posting your theories on a web journal with inaccurate depictions of my journalistic intent. My e-mail address is attached to every story that I write. I am open to discuss this matter at length with you should you have additional questions.
Sincerely,
Tariq Malik
SPACE.com
tmalik@hq.space.com
Correct... and because of that, the preceding "Mars" is redundant leaving us with just "Areostationary Relay Satellites", or ARS for short... sounds to me that someone high up is desparate to avoid them being refered to as "Arses" by the engineers etc...
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
This is a really interesting concept. I searched around google for a bit but only came up with this http://web.abnormal.com/~thogard/products/pulsar.h tml, which doesn't take into account the point of the other reply (how do you tell which pulse is which?). If anyone has more info, please post links. As the the other poster's conjecture that one could use directions to do the trig, It'd probably be pretty difficult given how far away these things are - I suspect the accuracy required for any reasonably precise calculation would require antennas far to large to be portable. However, unfolding antennas on a spacecraft might be large enough to provide the accuracy neccesary.
Man I wish I had mod points today.
All your points are valid, but they don't really add up. The only benefit of a GPS-style system is that it's easier and quicker to use than traditional navigation. In the case of space programs, we've already almost perfected celestial navigation, and we have the facilities to do it. The expense of sending all that GPS equipment to mars, calibrating it, and compensating for any failures, is simply not worth the minimal benefit in conveniance it has over tradional navigation.
This is one of my pet peeves about GPS - once people learn how to use it, they generally lose a lot of respect for traditional navigation. GPS is a great tool, but it's not the only way to achieve the job, and we've been doing very well for a very long time without it. Sometimes the old saying "if it aint broke, don't fix it" is true in other respects. If you already have a functioning system in place that does the job just fine, why spend millions replacing it?
The Mars Telecommunications Orbiter (MTO) shows up in detailed papers concerning the Mars Science Laboratory (MSL) rover updated in the last few months, so apparently it's still on the books. The microsat thing is harder to come by.
More interestingly, the next big rover after MSL is called MBL, or Mars Biology Laboratory. This would carry more life science gear than ten Viking probes, and rove around for over two earth years!
4 letters would make it a ETLA (Extended Three Letter Acronym)
but that's ridiculous
I know the parent poster was marked as off-topic, but come on people...recursive logic and doings such as this are humorous (atleast to me, maybe I'm weird like that), not necessarily off-topic since it is still a posting about the article.
/* sig */
So, here is my question: is this a recycled 4-year old article?
Also from poster...
the JPL site mentioned above has not been updated since 1999. Then, there is no mention of such a mission at NASA's Mars exploration program website.
I love when people answer their own questions.
All your points are valid, but they don't really add up. The only benefit of a GPS-style system is that it's easier and quicker to use than traditional navigation. In the case of space programs, we've already almost perfected celestial navigation, and we have the facilities to do it. The expense of sending all that GPS equipment to mars, calibrating it, and compensating for any failures, is simply not worth the minimal benefit in conveniance it has over tradional navigation.
You're forgetting an important point - autonamous navigation. With one-way light-times of up 20 minutes, real-time navigation just isn't an option and GPS can go a long way toward simplifying that autonomy. This isn't a case of laziness - we're talking about puting a useful long term asset around a plant that is going to save us $millions over the long haul and give us science to boot. Besides, that "almost perfect celestial navigation" you mentioned is only "almost" and not "perfect" because we lack a GPS-like system to perform pinpoint landings.
I'll believe it when persons wearing comedy glasses and 10gallon hats start working at my local phone company.
Greek (not "geek") for Mars is Ares, not "aero." "Aero.." makes no sense in reference to any object in orbit around a planetary body.
Tariq, welcome to Slashdot, where stories are mangled by submitters every day, and where the blatant mistakes in the write-ups are often corrected by knowledgeable posters. I think I speak for many fellow-slashdotters when I say that your efforts over at space.com are appreciated.
karma capped
We require 4 visible GPS satalites to take a measurement because, again, we want GPS receivers to be cheap. We don't want to spend money to have receivers that can take accurate frequency measurements for doppler usage. Also, we want a one-shot measurement from a moving receiver. It's not OK to have the user stay put long enough for the satelite to move a few degrees or, again, to use an inertial navigation system to allow movement of the reciever while taking multiple measurements of a single satelite.
On mars, the economics work out differently. We can push costs into the receiver if that would let us reduce the number of satelites.
We can determine position from just one satelite. This requires 3 accurate frequency measurements, in addition to all the normal GPS stuff.