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CAPPS 2 Back to the Drawing Board

dagnabit writes "Just saw this over at MSNBC. Apparently Tom Ridge is revising CAPPS II due to the lawsuits and complaints from some Congresscritters As an alternative, the TSA is hoping frequent travellers will voluntarily give up their info..."

191 comments

  1. build a database you mean... by garcia · · Score: 5, Insightful

    From this article at Wired:

    "The Department of Homeland Security and the TSA feel very strongly we should not move forward on any program that in any way infringes on preserving our freedoms," Stone said. "That is first and foremost."

    Which really means, "we thought that people would just go along with us because we snuck every other piece of bullshit legislation through without notice but we were wrong."

    The system, as originally proposed, would require all passengers to provide extra information when booking a ticket -- information that airlines don't currently ask for, like addresses, phone numbers and dates of birth. The system would then check that information against databases of criminals and terrorists and assign each passenger a green, yellow or red score, according to perceived risk.
    Civil-liberties groups from the left and right have gained powerful allies on Capitol Hill by arguing the system is both too invasive and ineffective.


    Damn straight it's ineffective. The 9/11 terrorists were already in the country legally. What the hell good would this do? They were already flying planes. Would knowing their dates of birth and their addresses have helped? Nope.

    Privacy firebrand Bill Scannell, whose DontSpyOnUs website has targeted companies such as JetBlue and Delta Airlines for working with the TSA, welcomed news of changes to CAPPS II, but argued the TSA did not go far enough.

    "They should shut down this anti-democratic project and put it into a security system that works," Scannell said. "Instead of retooling, they should junk the entire system and improve physical security."


    No way! Improve physical security? You mean like stop worrying about having an algorithm figure stuff out and do it manually? That's work, no way! Plus, we wouldn't be able to create a large database of information on airline passengers that could be easily accessed by other agencies in the on-going fight to end freedom, errr I mean terrorism.

    1. Re:build a database you mean... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would knowing their dates of birth and their addresses have helped? Nope.

      I think knowing their addresses might have helped. Some of them were known or suspected terrorists. Good stuff otherwise.

    2. Re:build a database you mean... by TopShelf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Damn straight it's ineffective. The 9/11 terrorists were already in the country legally. What the hell good would this do? They were already flying planes. Would knowing their dates of birth and their addresses have helped? Nope.

      I may be off base here, but weren't a few of them wanted for various warrents? Such a system could conceivably allow authorities to make an arrest before they get on the plane. It would seem at least that checking passenger ID's against police and FBI wanted lists would make sense...

      --
      Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
    3. Re:build a database you mean... by drtomaso · · Score: 3, Funny

      Also from the article:

      "We are also introducing a new ticketing scheme designed to allow us to 'red flag' potential terrorists." Stone went on to detail the program, which, in addition to the 'economy', 'business' and 'first-class' tickets we have come to expect, would introduce a new 'terrorist' class ticket. "The terrorist class seating is closest to the cockpit, and is comprised of fold-down seats, since for most of the flight they'll be on their feet brandishing ak47s and boxcutters." said Stone. "Naturally, we will watch anyone purchasing a 'terrorist class' ticket very carefully."

      I for one applaud Director Stone's new program- this should be at least as, if not even more, effective than asking for birthdates and addresses!

    4. Re:build a database you mean... by garcia · · Score: 0

      This was a bench warrant. This wasn't a listing on the FBI's most wanted list. Give me a break.

    5. Re:build a database you mean... by TopShelf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's why I said "police and FBI". Just in general, it would seem to make sense to check passenger ID's against those lists.

      --
      Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
    6. Re:build a database you mean... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The 9/11 terrorists were already in the country legally.

      Some of them were. Some of them weren't.

      You mean like stop worrying about having an algorithm figure stuff out and do it manually?

      If we have a better way to do something manually, that's good. Thus the prevalence of cars over horses.

    7. Re:build a database you mean... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stay on topic. You're just blabbering about nothing.

    8. Re:build a database you mean... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      re: don't mod things down

      Then what is the point of mod points at all?

      That's like having fundamental rights like habeas corpus, but letting the gov't ignore them -- oh, um, never mind.

    9. Re:build a database you mean... by Gr8Apes · · Score: 3, Informative

      First, being on the "watch list" didn't stop a couple of them from coming in the country.

      Second, Atta had the bench warrant, and was pulled over with a bench warrant, and not arrested.

      Third, good grief - everyone with a ticket won't be able to fly? They only write about a gazillion of those things a day.

      Finally, since when are airline ticket takers constables? What's next? Your McD's order taker will want your DOB etc so the local cops can come pick you up if you have an unpaid parking ticket?

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    10. Re:build a database you mean... by argStyopa · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "They should shut down this anti-democratic project and put it into a security system that works," Scannell said. "Instead of retooling, they should junk the entire system and improve physical security."

      No way! Improve physical security? You mean like stop worrying about having an algorithm figure stuff out and do it manually? That's work, no way! Plus, we wouldn't be able to create a large database of information on airline passengers that could be easily accessed by other agencies in the on-going fight to end freedom, errr I mean terrorism.


      I hate to harsh your mellow, but I'd love to hear you or Scannell's ideas for "a security system that works"?

      It's easy to bitch "aaagh, they've stolen my privacy!!", but YOU figure out a way that you can
      - identify or at least highlight potential terrorists
      - inconvenience as few people as possible meaning it's got to be quick and as inconspicuous as possible
      - cost as little as possible

      Personally, I think the simplest solution would be to extensively scrutinize any male of Middle Eastern descent, aged 12-62. Yep, it's profiling. But yet, I bet it would effectively screen out most terrorist candidates, at least until they figure out how to force Scandinavian grandmothers to start carrying their bombs for them. However, because of leftists like a goodly chunk of the/. crowd, such a simple solution is prohibited under the rubric of 'no profiling'.
      Therefore we get stupid systems where US Senators and little old ladies are getting searched. Brilliant. When's the last time a little old lady or a US Senator blew up a plane?

      Liberals could find a dark side to the sun.

      --
      -Styopa
    11. Re:build a database you mean... by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Hey, why don't they just use The yellowcard mod for phpbb?

    12. Re:build a database you mean... by TopShelf · · Score: 1

      First, being on the "watch list" didn't stop a couple of them from coming in the country.

      Such a system may well have prevented that, or flagged law enforcement to trail them once they arrived.

      Second, Atta had the bench warrant, and was pulled over with a bench warrant, and not arrested.

      Checking passenger ID's against warrant lists would allow them to make such an arrest. The reason he got away before is that the officer wasn't aware of the warrant.

      Third, good grief - everyone with a ticket won't be able to fly? They only write about a gazillion of those things a day.

      No, not tickets, warrants - there's a big difference. Also, they could include on the list what the warrant is for, and use that information in making a determination as to whether to arrest the person.

      Finally, since when are airline ticket takers constables?

      They aren't - but there are plenty of security staff and police officers onhand at airports who would have such authority.

      --
      Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
    13. Re:build a database you mean... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
      Then what is the point of mod points at all?

      Hmmm... Let's see:

      Good stuff:
      Funny - If you think it's funny. This is expectedly subjective, but surprisingly consistent.
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      Interesting - It's it has a valid point, and is pleasantly readable. It doesn't have to be a point you necessarily agree with, but everyone's got their own agenda...
      Informative - Has actual information that is relevant. This is rarely subjective.
      Underrated - When you just don't feel they appreciated the reply enough. Works great when you see someone who was unfairly downmodded. (Hey... It happens!)

      Bad stuff:
      Flamebait - It's mean and nasty. It's an "in-your-face" experience that has no redeeming quality. It's only goal is to anger as may people as possible. You do not use it because "I don't like that person!"
      Troll - They are trying to be more subtle, but your gut feeling tells you they are only posting to disrupt the conversation in order to prevent constructive dialog. You do not use it because "I don't like what they said!"
      Offtopic - When a post has nothing to do with anything in the article or previously posted reply. This should be reserved for willful digression, and not punishment for those who get sidetracked from what everyone else was originally chatting about.
      Overrated - When you feel the people modding were "on crack", but please... Try not to use this one. It's obvious to most people that it is frequently used by trolls as a political weapon (especially since it can't be meta-modded).

      Thanks for playing, and feel free to copy and share this information with others!

    14. Re:build a database you mean... by Qzukk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Profiling Doesn't
      Work.

      Any system that decides to ignore people who don't fit its narrow world view is a FAILURE. If nobody cared about the guy with the british passport, would the flight have been saved? Would the arrests in Texas have been made if all the agents were out tailing Pakistanis or Iraqis?

      As for CAPPS II, it had a whole host of problems rather than just collecting public data into a single place. Color coding was designed to be loose so that the person could move you up if you "looked" suspicious, or asked questions (in fact, IIRC, asking questions automatically escalated you). The database was not available for review or correction (the fact that our government insists on using bad data scares me more than anything else. But then again the whole Iraq mess proves that our government thrives on error). The list only goes on from there. That underpaid screener who just got laid off? They took your entire identity with them, and now have themselves a "raise". No auditing of usage of the data is almost as bad as the lack of review of the data.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    15. Re:build a database you mean... by crawling_chaos · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In other words, you want us to be like the old Soviet Union, and always be sure that we carry our internal passports. I would note that if "papers, please" becomes a regular part of travel in this country, then what this country special is dead.

      --
      You can only drink 30 or 40 glasses of beer a day, no matter how rich you are.
      -- Colonel Adolphus Busch
    16. Re:build a database you mean... by AbbyNormal · · Score: 3, Insightful

      inconvenience as few people as possible meaning ..

      So every Middle-Eastern LOOKING male should be profiled? Of what country? What about Americans?

      Letme guess you aren't of Middle-Eastern descent? Must be easy then, to come up with that profiling scheme.

      --
      Sig it.
    17. Re:build a database you mean... by homer_ca · · Score: 1

      "Personally, I think the simplest solution would be to extensively scrutinize any male of Middle Eastern descent, aged 12-62."

      Wrong. While you're profiling Middle Eastern males, the threat is already evolving. The Palestineans have sent many women suicide bombers to Israel. Richard Reid? He was British.

    18. Re:build a database you mean... by demo9orgon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm feeling that whole "trust in the system" thing.

      It's ok. It's a fallicy that in this age is excusable--after all, nobody wants to be responsible for anything so we have insurance and judicial champions to assauge our sorrows and beat the snot out of the other guy, and since he lost he's responsible.

      As for the "system" thing...
      Unfortunately anyone who has ever caught the attention of a policeman
      (I'm a white-boy eating lunch in a park in a predominantly hispanic/black neighborhood or I'm riding a bicycle with a bandanna on my head or I'm wearing mostly black clothes and walking home across a strip-mall parking-lot) knows exactly how troublesome and useless a security person can be. People have misconceptions, preconceptions, and people with power (police, judges) are often arbitrary with how and why they employ it. B.F. Skinner had a great deal of important things to say about systems and how they influence behavior.

      Police and the system do not prevent crimes,they react to them.
      A system which catalogs people and manages movement control only controls the willing. It's possible for a single individual to carry out acts of horror and go unnoticed. A small group of justified individuals, even more so. And a organization of people infused with righteous determination and resources can undo hundreds of years of effort in a presidential term.

      People who use the system to control other people justify their actions and the existence of the system in what is often a self-feeding, self-fulfilling prophecy. When you're "marked", you're no longer free. Once you're no longer free, you justify the system. "Sure it's not perfect but it's necessary" sucks.

      Nothing can prevent crimes without removing (en-masse) the free will of people.

      Nothing can prevent people from doing something which is going to kill, and maim.

      Citizens should try to prevent people from being cataloged. I believe Nazi Germany in the early part of the twentieth century gave us a great example of how that power can be abused. By proxy we already have a "mark of the beast" through the SSN and a trail of records, womb to tomb, in order to feed the government.

      As a people who value freedom U.S. citizens are strangely as willing as dray animals to be used in a variety of confusing and profitable ways. Maybe there's something to be said about homeschooling and turning that around. Is a good citizen someone who isn't necessarily "patriotic" as defined by the handlers in power? Maybe being patriotic or a good citizen means taking a longer, non-partisan, more suspicious view of mind and movement control.

      --
      Every new form of media has it's own Requirimento
    19. Re:build a database you mean... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You want to travel? Fine: Papers please, citizen.

    20. Re:build a database you mean... by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      Aren't you forgetting about the unabomber? What about the guys that bombed the fed building in OK? Those guys were white americans. So is every male going to be searched? I doubt that falls under inconveniencing as few people as possible.

      I doubt harrassing a minority (mid-east descent?) is going to earn any civil rights points.

      The age 12 thing is too high. There was a kid that was conned into bringing a teddybear with a gun inside it through security. Women have been found with guns and knives too. So much for profiling.

      If your solution is something taken out of 1984, I don't want to see it. I don't want a government that assumes guilt first. I agree with Ben Franklin, anyone that trades liberty for security will deserve neither and get neither.

      I don't want a government spending billions of dollars and stripping our rights and freedoms to "protect us" from terrorists when more people die each year from auto accidents than they do of terrorism. There's no point in allowing the goverment to rapidly expand its own powers and spending on what is really a small threat.

    21. Re:build a database you mean... by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      Hint - there is a system in place to keep such people out of the country, it's called "Customs and Immigration". One of the major issues in the 9/11 reports is that current and existing processes and procedures failed miserably because various folks (e.g., CIA/FBI/Local authorities) refuse to communicate.

      Only 1 had a warrant, out of 18. Think that would have stopped anything? But, that aside, how many warrants exist for parking tickets, which very well could have blown away? Are all such people to be arrested because they have a business trip to go on for a high powered meeting somewhere?

      Finally, there's a thing about jurisdictions. It's a rather small thing, but a rather important one, or do you hold with the police state = good thing?

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    22. Re:build a database you mean... by TopShelf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Dude, I think you forgot to take your medicine this morning.

      What I'm talking about here isn't an end-all be-all cure for all crime. It's a simple, common-sense idea - when you fly, you already present your ID to verify that you are the person to whom the ticket has been issued. Simply bounce that ID against a consolidated watch list and notify law enforcement when a match is made.

      If you're on the list, they're already after you. Get over it. All I'm saying is that we should take existing information and just try and get it into the right people's hands.

      --
      Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
    23. Re:build a database you mean... by Aidtopia · · Score: 2, Insightful
      It's easy to bitch "aaagh, they've stolen my privacy!!", but YOU figure out a way that you can - identify or at least highlight potential terrorists ...

      I think that's the wrong goal. It should be about keeping weapons off planes, not terrorists. Personally, I don't care of Osama himself is sitting in coach, if we can be assured that there are no weapons or explosives available on the flight. That should be the goal of airport security. Finding terrorists and building a criminal case against them is the business of law enforcement, not baggage screeners and gate agents.

      If you want secure flights, then:

      • Secure the cockpit door. done
      • Improve passenger and baggage screening. improved, but room for more
      • Reduce the amount of carry-on allowed on the flight. not done!

      If you want to arrest terrorists who have committed crimes:

      • Make it a law-enforcement priority over lesser crimes.
      • Provide more staff.
      • Improve interagency communication.
    24. Re:build a database you mean... by mr100percent · · Score: 1

      Don't forget, remove all matches and cigarette lighters from planes. Sheesh, the tobacco lobby has prevented a restriction that would have stopped Richard Reid from lighting his shoes on an airplane.

    25. Re:build a database you mean... by silas_moeckel · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      I think he is trying to get to the point that you sould not be required to present ID to travel inside a country EVER, to operate a vehical maybe (I'm not thrilled with it) Any BTW before 9/11 you could just fly with a ticket sure you gave a name I've flown with tickets under the company name before even with all the same name (in a large group) this was all before 9/11. Now we have the 2 hour wait to go through a metal detector funny thats something that dosent work a sharp pen can be a weapon hell the 9/11 guys were using jail style shanks something that has been going through metal detectors for years.

      Realy all the physical security improvements seem to be to placate the people. If you want security vs a suicide troops you better start looking elsewhere, it cant be done you cant stop the effect you have to stop the cause (I vote for utilizing large scale explosions in retaliation either the bombing will stop or the countries of origin will cease to exist to bad thats genocide) Unfortunatly fixing a problem isn't something you can legislate it requires real action. US style justice isn't setup to cope with somebody that cares less for there own life but more for there cause.

      OK sorry for the rant. Oh if you think I'm incensitive to those that died I work at the NYC Medical Examiner and have seen more grusom things that TV can imagine related to the towers, I've also seen all the family members comming in to give DNA samples so we can try and give them some closure and soemthing to burry.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    26. Re:build a database you mean... by Dashing+Leech · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I'd love to hear you or Scannell's ideas for "a security system that works"

      That's easy. The highest probability of catching a terrorist, etc., is to perform random searches. Any system that puts individuals under greater scrutiny and they can become aware of it (such as them being searched more thoroughly or more often than an average passenger) is less likely to catch terrorists. (This is the characteristic demonstrated by the Carnival Booth algorithm. The reason for this is because you can figure out your own status (flag, colour, whatever), so any terrorist group planning on hijacking an airplane can just find out all of their statuses and get the ones who aren't flagged to do the hijacking, thus miminizing their chance of getting caught to be that of the random searches. Furthermore, since some security officers will be performing the "detailed" searches (which aren't improving the probability of detection), the will be reducing the number of random searches that could be performed by the same number of personnel, therefore the probability of finding terrorists is even further reduced. Purely random searches would do a better job.

      Of course, this all only applies if the individual can become aware of their own status. One might suggest that the way around this is to use a flagged system but keep the extra "scrutiny" secret. That's fine if you're searching checked baggage, but there's no way to do secret searches of indiduals and carry-ons, so if they're carrying weapons (e.g., box cutters), there's no way to know without performing a search they'd be aware of.

      In other words, the most secure system for catching terrorists getting on planes with weapons is random detailed searching. Now, it's more secure if you do more random searches, especially to the point that you are doing detailed searches of everyone (at which point it isn't really random).

      There's just no way around this. It's like a closed form solution. Trying to come up with a "better" one is like trying to come up with a perpetual motion machine.

    27. Re:build a database you mean... by demo9orgon · · Score: 1

      In the best of all possible worlds, the right information will solve things.

      In this world, it just makes for good reading and the occasional TV show, and maybe a movie (or a Bollywood classic complete with handfuls of dye-powder cast into the air as Tom Ridge dances across a table laden with fruit and the skulls of terrorists while an out-of-tune guitar twangs to the syncopated beat of whips across the backs of the new jobless underclass, soon to wear TSA togs--let the vetting begin!).

      Alpha-rats are never caught as long as they're loved by someone. There are plenty of examples of this. The soldier rats lovingly sacrifice themselves and no database in the world is going to even slow it down. This is something that the world has known since before cuniform tablets and clay pellets, but armed with cameras, computers, x-ray machines and databases the government is willing to spend billions in order to create the facade of safety that the writers of bad tv-shows can use in order to feel timely.

      It's crepe paper milled from taxpayer dollars, destined to be pissed on by anyone willing to sacrifice themselves. Crepe paper looks pretty until it's treated to a hot wet dose of reality.

      Government should have the power to control who comes and goes on international flights. Within the boundaries of the CONUS, they shouldn't have a damn thing to do with people travelling between cities and states. No more than they bother with someone getting on a train, or someone taking the bus.

      For the ambulatory meat packed into a plane, the traditional methods of screening for weapons done by most security staff that aren't sleeping or busy socializing should do.

      The security solution they need for aircraft should be flight-systems/avionics which lock-out the pilot and force the plane into a neutral/low-risk cooridor. We've had the ability to do this since the 1970's. There's a buttload of other things we could do, but the airline industry will alternately suck their thumbs and pick their collective noses until they can wrangle attractive contracts to retrofit or replace the existing fleets. Like most industries, aviation would prefer a people-based solution rather than innovate or take a risk. The aviation industry could also take many other steps to eliminate or reduce the number of casualties in a crash but they've successfully done what Microsoft does today; simply tell the customer that there's always bugs and that crashes are just a part of using a computer(airplane).

      Keep in mind that a solution based on good security and aircraft wouldn't require a growth in government, so there's little or no incentive to do it. In this age of terror-alerts, the old-guard are all too happy to make a grab on freedom, turn the ratchet, and enjoy their firehoses of data, funding and playpen-omniscience.

      --
      Every new form of media has it's own Requirimento
    28. Re:build a database you mean... by Warlok · · Score: 1
      It should be about keeping weapons off planes, not terrorists.


      Yeah, sure, keeping weapons off planes certainly helped. Guns haven't been allowed on airplanes for decades - sure glad that policy helped stop a couple of terrorists from taking over four planes on 9/11.


      Seriously, the system we have in place now is the same as the one that was in place on 9/10, just more of it and more intrusive. It didn't work on 9/11, and the thinking that more of it will work better is simply insane. The system we have is broken beyond a repair and doesn't need to be improved, patched, fixed, or added on to - it needs to be dismantled and replaced with something new and different, or maybe something old and effective that the socialists -- oops, I meant Democrats and Republicans -- have forgotten about called the right to bear arms.


      Before 1968, carrying weapons on airplanes was OK. After the Gun Control Act of 1968, the victim disarmament crowd has slowly but surely turned gun ownership into a crime, or at least suspiscion of a crime in progress.


      The airlines are concerned about their passengers and their assets (i.e. the planes), and I realize hand gun bullets can pierce the skin of a pressurized aircraft. There's an answer to that as well, called frangible ammunition. Frangible rounds have a pre-fragmented slug in them - the pieces carry a fraction of the energy of the whole slug, cannot pierce aircraft skin, but can still drop a target at ranges effective in an aircraft. If I were allowed to carry a handgun on board an aircraft, I would have no problem if the airline wanted to inspect my ammo to ensure it was frangible - it would be part of the contract I enter into by purchasing a ticket on their craft.


      Now you tell me, where do you feel safer - in a room filled with a couple a' hundred unarmed victims and two-three whacko's with box cutters, or a room filled with a couple a' hundred armed citizens and a two-three armed whackos? Even if the room is a pressurized tube at 35,000 feet, I'd feel better knowing I outnumbered and outgunned the whackos.

      --
      ...and you run and you run and you can't stop what's been done...
    29. Re:build a database you mean... by Dashing+Leech · · Score: 1
      Add onto the parent post that since the terrorists can find out their status just by taking a few flights, they can become aware if the FBI/CIA/whoever is "onto" them or not. This can lead them to go deeper into hiding, more secure communications, more careful hiding of their activities, etc.

      So a system designed to make flying supposedly more secure would end up making it less secure and tip off terrorists that the are being watched and should be more careful. Way to go!

    30. Re:build a database you mean... by sonamchauhan · · Score: 1

      Only 1 had a warrant, out of 18. Think that would have stopped anything? ...
      Yes, it could. One is more than zero.

      that aside, how many warrants exist for parking tickets,...
      Are all such people to be arrested because they have a business trip to go on for...
      Finally, there's a thing about jurisdictions. ...
      I hear you. You'd rather have your government handcuffed then have it offer better protection to citizens (i.e. fulfill it's role).

      do you hold with the police state = good thing? ...
      Strawman argument.

    31. Re:build a database you mean... by DarkVader · · Score: 1

      I think you've got it backwards.

      You want secure flights? Secure the cockpit door, and then let everybody with a concealed weapon permit carry on the flight.

      Law enforcement will NEVER be able to bring us security from ANYTHING. It's not even their job.

      And no amount of screening you do will ever keep all weapons off a flight. Somebody can always get through security.

      If you just encourage people to carry legally on the flight, you've just made it virtually impossible for the flight to be hijacked. Just sniff for bombs, and your flight is safe.

      And you get the reduced inconvenience of being able to go to the airport and get on a plane. I haven't flown since the 9/11 incident - not because I'm afraid of terrorists, I'm not. I haven't flown because I don't want to deal with the "security". And I used to ENJOY flying.

    32. Re:build a database you mean... by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      I hear you. You'd rather have your government handcuffed then have it offer better protection to citizens (i.e. fulfill it's role).

      I'd rather have my government concentrate on important things than enforcing local parking ticket warrants.

      As for Strawman argument, I'd need to set up a point for a police state for that to be valid. I was curious as to your position, as you seem to seriously be leaning towards police state.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    33. Re:build a database you mean... by sonamchauhan · · Score: 1

      > > I hear you. You'd rather have your government handcuffed
      > > then have it offer better protection to citizens (i.e. fulfill it's role). ...
      > I'd rather have my government concentrate on important things
      > than enforcing local parking ticket warrants

      Al Capone didn't want the government concentrating on his tax return either. The government enforces the law - full stop. If you find a law repressive, work towards it's legislative removal. Don't expect police to check their brains by the door when they need to investigate someone.

      > > > do you hold with the police state = good thing? ...
      > > Strawman argument.
      > As for Strawman argument, I'd need to set up a point for a police state ...

      Haven't you heard the phrase: "rhetorical question"?

      >... you seem to seriously be leaning towards police state.

      The police should be subordinate to the law, and subject to it.

      BTW,
      > > > Only 1 had a warrant, out of 18. Think that would have stopped anything? ...
      > > Yes, it could. One is more than zero.
      You completely ignored this point - conceding to the truth only helps.

    34. Re:build a database you mean... by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      Al Capone didn't want the government concentrating on his tax return either. The government enforces the law - full stop. If you find a law repressive, work towards it's legislative removal. Don't expect police to check their brains by the door when they need to investigate someone.

      He didn't want the IRS to investigate him, which is part of its charter, btw. They didn't have the airline ticket counter person forcing a check of his tax return when he's trying to fly somewhere. There's a slight difference there.

      BTW,
      > > > Only 1 had a warrant, out of 18. Think that would have stopped anything? ...
      > > Yes, it could. One is more than zero.
      You completely ignored this point - conceding to the truth only helps.
      Massoui.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    35. Re:build a database you mean... by sonamchauhan · · Score: 1


      > > > > Only 1 had a warrant, out of 18. Think that would have stopped anything? ...
      > > > Yes, it could. One is more than zero.
      > You completely ignored this point - conceding to the truth only helps.
      Massoui.


      From here:


      Hijacker Mohamed Atta was stopped by police last July in Tamarac, Fla., and ticketed for an invalid license, officials there have said. He ignored the ticket and a bench warrant was issued for his arrest. But, when he was stopped for speeding a few weeks later in a nearby town, the officer, unaware of the bench warrant, let him go with a warning.

    36. Re:build a database you mean... by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      We already covered that. I provided a counterpoint.

      And to completely nullify your supposed argument, all Atta would have had to do is pay the ticket, and the bench warrant goes away.

      Or, as the apparant leanings of your previous postings indicate, would you insist that anyone with a bench warrant be jailed until such a time that the JD gets around to clearing them as enemy combatants? (I state this because anything less would have had 0 net effect.)

      You should also realize that hindsight is 20/20 (which, btw, is not perfect, just average).

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
  2. Revising CAPPS 2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They'll probably just pass a law to immunize from prosecution anyone who collects their dirty laundry for them.

    1. Re:Revising CAPPS 2 by Timesprout · · Score: 1

      No they are going to encourage people to 'volunteer' their information as part of the registered traveller program. After repeated long delays, hassle, inconvenience and strip searches of unregistered travellers I'm sure lots of people will be willing to register their details entirely of their own volition.

      --
      Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
      What truth?
      There is no dupe
    2. Re:Revising CAPPS 2 by laigle · · Score: 1

      No need to legislate. They can just have the Justice Department issue immunity for those who do so on a per case basis, without the need to get Congress on board and likely without any press coverage. Hopefully at some point the courts are going to decide that any evidence gathered illegally is inadmissable, rather than only in cases where the police broke the law themselves.

    3. Re:Revising CAPPS 2 by Mad+Martigan · · Score: 1

      Yep, that's how they getcha. From the article:

      Ridge said a new program with a different name might be developed to replace CAPPS II. It could be replaced by a new "registered traveler" program if enough people volunteer to provide personal information, the report said.

      It's just like the grocery store card, well, you know, milk would be 30 cents cheaper ... and it's not that big a deal ... right? Once enough people volunteer, there is enough of a customer/user/whatever base that the corporation/organization/whatever can put a lot of pressure on the people who didn't opt in.

      I think the idea of a slippery slope is way over used (especially here on Slashdot), but I also think that this is one of those things were the slippery slope would slowly slide up and bit you in the ass.

    4. Re:Revising CAPPS 2 by silicon+not+in+the+v · · Score: 1

      The problem with setting up a voluntary information submitting system is that it immediately makes the false distinction for the TSA of "guilty" vs. "innocent".

      [attendant taking papers]"Date of birth and current address, please."
      [traveler]"Forget it. I already bought my ticket for this flight."
      [attendant, whispered to security guard]"Grab that one for questioning."

      --
      We may experience some slight turbulence and then...explode. -Capt. Mal Reynolds
  3. Steak through the *head*? by SpooForBrains · · Score: 4, Funny
    Asked whether the program could be considered dead, Ridge jokingly gestured as if he were driving a stake through its head
    Is that a common way of killing things? Effective, yes, but wouldn't it make more sense to go for the heart? Or have I been watching too much Buffy?
    --
    "The dew has clearly fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning"
    1. Re:Steak through the *head*? by Timesprout · · Score: 3, Funny

      Is that a common way of killing things?

      Not me anyway. I put steak through my head all the time. The baked potatoes and veg I also put through it may reduce the danger though.

      --
      Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
      What truth?
      There is no dupe
    2. Re:Steak through the *head*? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a symbolic phrase. It is a lot like driving a stake through the heart, but instead it's driving it through the head of a politician. Thus, it looks like it would hurt, but it doesn't really do any damage.

  4. Persistent data? by Benanov · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Airlines, some facing lawsuits, have been caught up in the controversy because they provided passenger information for use in testing the screening system.
    What about all the data they already have? What's going to happen to it? I doubt the U.S. government will throw that data out unless specifically ordered to, and even then they're going to throw more of a fit than a dozen 2-year-olds.

    I've travelled and been green lighted by CAPPS I.

    So CAPPS II is dead...but is my information still...
    • in the database
    • considered relevant?
    1. Re:Persistent data? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I've travelled and been green lighted by CAPPS I.

      So now we know that you are an ideal potential terrorist because you won't be hassled when you travel. Kewl!

    2. Re:Persistent data? by Lodragandraoidh · · Score: 1

      in the database

      The database is probably mirrored to another system - and eventually backed up for analysis purposes on a less volatile medium - stored away in some black vault under the NSA building in Ft Meade Md., after having been used to suppliment their existing data warehouses.

      Oh, you can be sure they have it somewhere.

      --

      Lodragan Draoidh
      The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
    3. Re:Persistent data? by Caseyscrib · · Score: 1

      The terrorists have it now.

    4. Re:Persistent data? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The bad news is that your personal data will remain in a government database in perpetuity.

      The good news is that they can't read that database without destroying it, so you're probably safe.

  5. Why would they cancel... by Dagny+Taggert · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...this idea? After all, we KNOW that the gub'ment has never, ever arrested people based on faulty info. Trust the man, people; trust the MAN.

    --
    Don't be a looter...and yes, I know that it's spelled with an "A" instead of an "E".
  6. At least they are thinking by The0retical · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It is good to see that the US government is finally seeing that people do not want their right to privacy infringed upon. If they want to do something like the CAPPSII program it should be instituted voluntarily. Several airlines are already doing this and a rigorous background check to ensure the passengers are safe when they run them through an express check in. If anything US citizens should have their constitutional rights protected and if THEY should decide to give them up it was their decision for convenience of skipping the line.

    1. Re:At least they are thinking by keraneuology · · Score: 0, Troll
      Why does everybody assume that just because they -claim- that they are scrapping the program it will actually -be- scrapped? Do we have any assurances that the program won't simply be classified and carried out under cloak of government secrecy?

      Oh yeah... that's right, elected officials, appointees and their employees NEVER lie. EVER. If they say they will/won't do something it is ALWAYS true.

      --
      If the g'vt kept the data on you that google does you'd better believe you'd be calling it "doing evil"
    2. Re:At least they are thinking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no one needs to do anything.

      the era of hijackings are over because the passengers know the score.

      not to mention, how much more scrutiny are the people that actually value their privacy going to be under? is it going to be fair, or undue?

      either way, hijackings are not gonna happen

    3. Re:At least they are thinking by ovlaski · · Score: 1

      What is this mythical right to privacy you speak of? I certainly don't have it ....

    4. Re:At least they are thinking by puppet10 · · Score: 1

      All it does is create another hole in an already hopelessly systemically flawed system.

      --
      -------- This space intentionally left blank --------
    5. Re:At least they are thinking by keraneuology · · Score: 1
      I disagree with the moderation: by placing a 'troll' label the moderator is saying that the question -should not be asked- which is an entirely invalid and incorrect viewpoint. With any luck at all the metamod will catch up with this individual.

      The fundamental question is: can we as a people trust the government to do what they say? Why is anything less than 100% faith and trust in an unelected, unaccountable individual viewed as a crackpot out looking for trouble?

      Again, the question is: if the government says they will/will not do something, why are people such as the anonymous moderator so absolutely, 100% positive that the matter can be put to rest and nobody ever needs even -consider- the possibility that they will continue?

      Oh yeah... Poindexter never backtracked on anything....

      --
      If the g'vt kept the data on you that google does you'd better believe you'd be calling it "doing evil"
  7. Dumb? by Hard_Code · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Aren't "frequent" flyers the ones we care the least about? I mean, if you are dead from hijacking a plane, you typically don't go on many more flights.

    "Roger, this passenger has taken 2000 flights in the last 10 years...you know...I have this suspicion he is UP TO SOMETHING!"

    --

    It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
    1. Re:Dumb? by TopShelf · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I thought that in preparation for an attack, the hijackers take the flight they intend to use several times, in order to observe the crew and map out the operation. It's tough to distinguish that kind of flight activity from a business consultant who makes the same sort of regular trips.

      --
      Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
    2. Re:Dumb? by close_wait · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Aren't "frequent" flyers the ones we care the least about? I mean, if you are dead from hijacking a plane, you typically don't go on many more flights.
      A well-funded terrorist will fly the route several times. A middle-eastern looking gentlemen who turns up in a suit doing the same journey he's been doing every 14 days for the last few months is likely to get waved through. ("Here for your meeting again, Mr Bin Laden? Have a good flight!")
    3. Re:Dumb? by kfg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Exactly. Which means the handful of potential terrorists dissappear in the noise while the tens of thousands of perfectly innocent travelers are all equally suspect of being terrorists.

      They all end up being treated the same, whether that be well or poorly and you could make 6 months at Guantanamo a prerequitie for getting on a puddle jumper and it wouldn't do anything to prevent terrorism, but would destroy any number of innocent lives.

      KFG

    4. Re:Dumb? by Frank+T.+Lofaro+Jr. · · Score: 1

      Many terrorists live seemingly normal lives until the day they attack.

      So someone could take 2000 flights and only attack on the 2001st flight.

      --
      Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
  8. New name by KingEomer · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    How does Numm II sound?

    1. Re:New name by KingEomer · · Score: 1

      How was this offtopic? I was suggesting a name for the "revised" version of CAPPS II. It may have been a lame attempt at a joke, but it still applied to the article. (Maybe I should have explained myself a bit better in the parent).

  9. Live data? by sczimme · · Score: 4, Insightful


    From the article:

    Airlines, some facing lawsuits, have been caught up in the controversy because they provided passenger information for use in testing the screening system.

    Has no one there heard of 'dummy data'? Live data - particularly sensitive data - is a no-no in the testing environment. In many cases this is simply because the developers have absolutely no need-to-know; in other instances it is possible for live data to escape the test environment via generated reports, bug reports (e.g. SSNs ending in 4 cause $PROBLEM), etc.

    --
    I want to drag this out as long as possible. Bring me my protractor.
  10. why frequent flyers? by whovian · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Last time i checked, suicide terra-ists don't plan to accumulate mileage.

    --
    To-do List: Receive telemarketing call during a tornado warning. Check.
    1. Re:why frequent flyers? by badboy_tw2002 · · Score: 1

      Previously there was going to be a system where frequent flyers could bypass the new draconian security precedures they're going to institute by going through a background check. Maybe this is similar? Of course, you're just opening a hole in the security system by allowing a potential terrorist to slip through. Though, in that case it could be somewhat of a honey trap, as I'm sure they wouldn't want the spotlight of a background check put on them (not as if everyone from the Middle East is being anal probed as soon as they step off the plane anyways)

  11. Non US Persons by millahtime · · Score: 1

    I don't know If I like them collecting all that extra info. But....

    If they collected it for all non US persons I wouldn't mind. Although don't they already collect all this info for non US persons. If not, maybe they should.

    1. Re:Non US Persons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "If they collected it for all non US persons I wouldn't mind. Although don't they already collect all this info for non US persons. If not, maybe they should. "

      So you're saying that the privacy of the rest of the world is not important, whereas the privacy of American citizens is sacrosanct. Typical arrogant American attitude I don't think. No wonder you have so many enemies.

    2. Re:Non US Persons by mi · · Score: 1
      You mean, the true citizens, like the guys who bombed Oklahoma's federal building with a truck bomb, would never hijack a plane? Many of those responsible for Madrid's bombing in March were Spain's citizens too...

      Please. This is a slippery slope -- foreigners already are photographed and forced to submit fingerprints on entering US. There is no security reason not to impose the same upon citizens -- only the political one -- the voting public's opposition.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    3. Re:Non US Persons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      whats the point of that all of these companies and most of the governments involved here, share information with each other every day. so you say its ok by you if usa collects information about non USA people but thats no good cause you are going to get scanned the moment you land in UK anyway, and guess what UK and USA share information daily. Point being, you cant hide in in the shadows because there arent any. get useto it.

    4. Re:Non US Persons by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Honestly, yeah.

      I hope your governments will protect your privacy, but I don't care if mine does in order to protect me - I care if they break *my* privacy, but not that of a non-citizen. I assume most of the world is the same way - I certainly don't hear a whole lot of French people complaining about the well-documented practice of French airlines assisting French corporations in industrial espionage.

      --

      ---
      Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
      (I read with sigs off.)
    5. Re:Non US Persons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you're using the same attitude that you are criticizing. If I go to another country I fully expect to go through their security, passports, laws, etc. I don't even think of having the attitude of since I'm not from this country I shouldn't have to do your stupid security screens. Its American flights in/out that are being screened. All flights not involving our air space, go about your business and quit criticizing our fight to keep another 9/11 from happening. Don't get me wrong. I am all for keeping our freedom and don't want to give the gov't too much power. But if we have a known terrorist who gets on a plane and the airport didn't do anything, there would be a huge outcry of why not.

    6. Re:Non US Persons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and nobody said the internal citizens wouldn't be screened. It's not just foreigners...sheesh. I go through it all the time. No biggie. They have my name/#/address (same as before...asked me when I bought the ticket). They can look up criminal records......whats the problem?

    7. Re:Non US Persons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I assume therefore that you'd have absolutely no objections to other countries insisting on all this information for all US citizens entering their countries? Sorry guys, but before you can come over here we need your name, address, DOB, inside leg measurement, financial records, childrens names, childrens financial records, a photograph, your finger prints, soul of your 1st born....

      Don't make the assumption that the rest of the world assumes *you* are all good, safe, non-terrorist types!

      RikF - UK

    8. Re:Non US Persons by nihaopaul · · Score: 1
      If they collected it for all non US persons I wouldn't mind. Although don't they already collect all this info for non US persons. If not, maybe they should.

      nah i say fingerprint, probe and take dna of all americans ;) can't be trusted. or we just have a universal system managed under the UN (oh wait even that isn't safe, hmm what about the US? hmm nah china! at least they can spam you with chinese material and convince you that they are good!)
    9. Re:Non US Persons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What relevance does that have to Governments wanting to collect more and more information about individuals?

    10. Re:Non US Persons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, they can just ask. "Are you a resident of the United States?" Who would lie when asked that question?

      Oh, wait...

    11. Re:Non US Persons by whitis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If they collected it for all non US persons I wouldn't mind. Although don't they already collect all this info for non US persons. If not, maybe they should.

      "When they came for the Jews, I did nothing, for I am not a Jew. When they came for the Socialists, I did nothing, for I am not a Socialist. When they came for the Labour Leaders, the Homosexuals, the Gypsies, I did nothing, for I am none of these, and when they came for me, I was alone, there was no one to stand up for me.
      -- Pastor Martin Niemoller
      If that trips your Godwin's Law Filter, try one of the modern variations .
    12. Re:Non US Persons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right, 'cause US Citizens never do anything like, uh, blow up federal buildings in Oklahoma...

    13. Re:Non US Persons by mi · · Score: 1
      Funny question, considering, that it is being asked anonymously...

      Anyway, I have a problem with the mandatory fingerprinting. I think, it is offensive.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  12. Background check by jbeaupre · · Score: 1

    After an hour or two in line for physical security checks, I often start daydreaming and wondering if going through a background check would be worth it. To just breeze on through some special line. Ah, that would be the life. But they'd probably want to implant some chip...

    --
    The world is made by those who show up for the job.
    1. Re:Background check by ilsa · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, the Trusted Traveller System is not a get out of the security line free card. People having such cards will still have to go through the security line. They might get a special line at a limited number of airports (which will slow all other lines down, so the airlines won't like that). Some of the airports with the worst security line problems -- McCarran in Vegas comes to mind -- don't really have room for this special line, so they are unlikely to be implemented there. The "advantage" is that people with such cards will not be singled out for additional searches. That is, unless they set off the metal detector. Here's more details.

      So anybody thinking "Gee, I ought to get one of those cards so it won't be a big deal when the metal in my replacement hip sets off the machine" is in for a rude surprise.

      --
      -- I Am Not A Terrorist.
  13. Conspiracy Theory by webmosher · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This was "probably" scrapped simply because of the publicity it generated. There are "probably" easier ways to collect private information on the populate using pre-established methods that are less prone to public scrutiny (re: Carnivore).

  14. European data exchange? by angusr · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I wonder if this will have any effect on the planned (and contraversial, although little heard about in the mainstream press) data exchange from EU airlines to the US?

    There does seem to be a fallacy going around in intelligence circles that all that is required for good security is as much data as can possibly be obtained - which of course isn't the case. What is required is good and timely analysis of relevant good quality data. Airlines can't even book seats correctly 100% of the time - what are the chances that their data is going to be good quality 100% of the time?

    1. Re:European data exchange? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I already moderated this story - but what the heck - I have to respond here. You're not kidding about this: Airlines can't even book seats correctly 100% of the time - what are the chances that their data is going to be good quality 100% of the time? The last time I flew (earlier this summer) the trip had 2 flights each way. By the time we got from ATL -> Houston, 2 of us had apparently "never flown to houston" so continental was reluctant to let us on the plane.. Anyway, they finally let us on after showing them our Delta boarding passes. We flew to honolulu.

      On the way back - when we went to check in - they'd sold our seats in honolulu (all but 1 of the 4 people traveling together) - because the other 3 had never been on the flights to honolulu (despite us having boarding passes scanned/torn at the gate/etc). The people at the continental counter would not believe that we had all flown there. Finally they let us on that plane - and when it came time to fly from houston to atlanta - the 3 people who had previously had problems, had none - and then the 1 person who hadn't had problems - got their seat sold - and had to argue to get it back). What a pain!

      The fact that their computer systems showed that we weren't on the plane seriously makes me wonder what kink of useful data they can even give to the government. I mean, they didn't think we were on the plane - but at the same time they didn't remove our luggage. I thought that was a federal rule? Anyway...

  15. Remember? by Mishkin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    remember one the first things that Bush said after 9/11?

    We will not allow these terrorists to change our way of life.


    heh. right.

    1. Re:Remember? by Gentoo+Fan · · Score: 1, Insightful

      remember one the first things that Bush said after 9/11?

      We will not allow these terrorists to change our way of life.

      By "our" he meant the government. Government has always been trying to creep more and more into the lives of everyone, and 9/11 just gave them more "reason" to.

    2. Re:Remember? by DaHat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Lets not forget the part about how the terrorists will win if we let their actions change how we live our lives... based on that... I've been saying they won long ago.

    3. Re:Remember? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      longer than people realize too. USS Cole and the 8 years the hijackers of 9/11 spent training were all during the Clinton Administration. Try telling that to a Democrat & see how fast they change the subject.

    4. Re:Remember? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      And who was president back when Saddam was our ally and the US Govt was providing the islamic militants (the ones who now hate us) with guns when the Soviets were invading Afghanistan? Try telling that to a Republican and see how quickly they change the subject (or pretend it was all justified regardless of the blowback).

    5. Re:Remember? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, took you 35 whole minutes to blame the Clenus.

      Having an off day, are we?

    6. Re:Remember? by gillbates · · Score: 1
      We will not allow these terrorists to change our way of life.

      Exactly. Why allow terrorists to change our way of life when Congress gets paid to do it? Get those lazy legislators off their asses - they're on the public payroll and they've got work to do!

      --
      The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
  16. voluntary system by asreal · · Score: 4, Interesting

    to be honest, a voluntary system with no rules on what information can be collected scares me more than the all-knowing capps ii program. it puts in effect the same sort of discrimination and information gathering without any of the restrictions that would be in place in a legislated system. say 8 passengers give their information and two don't-- who do you think will get the cavity search?

  17. Voluntarily, yeah right. by pigeon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I don't believe in voluntarily. I see a future in which people who did not "voluntarily" gave up information are harrassed and automatically marked suspect.

    1. Re:Voluntarily, yeah right. by shdragon · · Score: 1

      I agree. I remember reading an article about a horrible murder in (I believe) Scotland. Local police there asked all males fitting a certain profile to "volunteer" dna samples. Those who didn't were automatically suspect. THAT scares me. I've been trying to find the article for the past 20 minutes but I can't (sorry).

      --
      "...we dont care about the economics; we just want to be able to hack great stuff."
    2. Re:Voluntarily, yeah right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, that happens all the time in the US too. If you're a suspect, and you can't be easily ruled out (via DNA comparison) then you remain a suspect until you can be otherwise eliminated. Makes perfect sense to me.

    3. Re:Voluntarily, yeah right. by shdragon · · Score: 1

      It only makes sense if you accept the guilty till proven innocent mindset.

      --
      "...we dont care about the economics; we just want to be able to hack great stuff."
  18. Voluntary program? by raider_red · · Score: 1

    As an alternative, the TSA is hoping frequent travellers will voluntarily give up their info..."

    Of course, if you don't volunteer the information, they'll be happy to conduct you to a private room for your strip search.

    --
    It's good to use your head, but not as a battering ram.
    1. Re:Voluntary program? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And to think people pay big bucks for that. Oh wait I just saw private room and strip...sorry.

  19. That's silly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Tom Ridge should just send out jack booted thugs to gas, burn, shoot, or otherwise kill these people who are being subversive to CAPPS II and any other plan that helps to establish the New World Order. The government is always right.

  20. Punctuation...? by julesh · · Score: 1

    It's getting bad when even Reuters' journalists can't punctuate a sentence properly.

    The program, which has never been tested fully, was launched after the Sept. 11, 2001, hijacking attacks to refine electronic techniques for using personal information to identify and rate potential threats.

    This sentence means that the program hijacked attacks [...]. I think they meant:

    The program, which has never been tested fully, was launched after the Sept. 11, 2001 hijacking attacks to refine electronic techniques for using personal information to identify and rate potential threats.

    1. Re:Punctuation...? by whitis · · Score: 1

      The program, which has never been tested fully, was launched after the Sept. 11, 2001, hijacking attacks to refine electronic techniques for using personal information to identify and rate potential threats.

      This sentence means that the program hijacked attacks [...]. I think they meant:

      The program, which has never been tested fully, was launched after the Sept. 11, 2001 hijacking attacks to refine electronic techniques for using personal information to identify and rate potential threats.

      Nope. The original form was correct. Grammar and spelling flames have a tendancy to reveal more about the flamer's dubious language skills than the text being criticised. A comma is required after the year in dates in this format. The year itself is treated like a non-restrictive clause that must be set off by commas on both sides when it follows the month. Now, if the word "was" had been preceeded by "which", then the comma after "2001" could have ended "2001" and possibly the clause starting with the comma before "which" as well. This hypothetical case would illustrate an ambiguity in English grammar. If the date had been properly specified in ISO-8601 format ("2001-09-11") then the ambiguity would have been avoided.

    2. Re:Punctuation...? by djktno · · Score: 1

      Actually, the Reuters guy is correct. When a date is listed as in July 4, 1776, the year is parenthetical. Not so if he would have said September 2001 or 2001-09-11.

      As an aside, I've also heard that the recently laid cornerstone for the twin towers included the mistake above by not adding the comma. I haven't seen it, though, so I can't support that claim.

  21. Not because of good intentions.. by cOdEgUru · · Score: 3, Insightful

    And not because Tom Ridge just woke up today morning a changed man either.

    Its because they realized when senators and congressman and lobbyists on either side of the spectrum told them that snooping on influential people aint a good thing. Its not me or you they are worried about offending, its the people who they need, who can make or break them that they cater to.

    But they would violate the rights of every non-american who step off or on their planes with out a second thought, because every immigrant is a potential terrorist, isnt it? Every tanned face will be pulled aside, strip searched, his financial / public and private records scoured and reviewed by people who could very well abuse that power.

    Well..here's to Good Ol America.

    1. Re:Not because of good intentions.. by tree_frog · · Score: 1
      You mean like The Indian foreign Minister (on an official visit).

      regards, treefrog

    2. Re:Not because of good intentions.. by buckhead_buddy · · Score: 1
      Every tanned face will be pulled aside, strip searched, his financial / public and private records scoured and reviewed by people who could very well abuse that power.


      As a "slightly" out of shape man with nerdy glasses and a skin color that has the same pigmentation as a snowball, I think that myself and much of slashdot should have no problems with these "stereotypical terrorist" regulations.

      I've heard about the slow and invasive processes (e.g. drinking your own breast milk as in Fahrenheit 9/11) but I've gone through a dozen airline security checks in the past two weeks and I generally make it through them in under 10 minutes without incident of any sort. People open additional lines and tell me to come over. I've actually had to remind guards to look at my boarding pass and id. I don't ever have people ask me to remove my shoes (be it sneakers, boots, dress shoes, or whatever I may be wearing). I'm often allowed to go through without showing that my computer is a computer instead of a bomb. Heck, for two trips I even had two of those "expansion batteries" that you hook up between your AC adapter and any brand of computer to get 8x power time. It's an unusual item; it had no easy way for me to demonstrate it's purpose; it looked like an easy way to hide gobs of explosive; and I wasn't actually taking my computer on the plane with me. I thought for certain I'd be pulled aside and have to explain these "bomb-like" boxes. "Uh they're computer batteries." "Where's the computer, son?" "I didn't bring it" "A likely story. Here try on these handcuffs." Nope. Waved right on through. No problems.

      But it is seriously insulting to realize that people I admire for their technical prowess and generousity to the community will probably get harassed and cavity searched at these checkpoints just for their non-American features.
  22. Government Nonsense by SadPenguin · · Score: 1, Insightful

    First, i think that our invasive government has done enough to deprive us of any personal space. Tom Ridge, or anyone else doesn't need to know my pants size, yearly income, and how many pets i have if i'm getting on a plane. Security is one thing, but this is blatant excess, and abuse of authority. I'm glad we've at least got someone in congress with enough sense to say, "ok, so now when we get on planes, they'll anal probe us... Not so sure if i like that...". I just wish that good sense was around when the "Patriot" Act was written/passed. Well, change is not easy to swing these days, so i don't imagine we'll be seeing any less of this nonsense flying through congress (until we get some new faces in gov't....)

    --
    sigSEGV - doy!
    1. Re:Government Nonsense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And I'm sure you'll be at the head of the "Bush Should Have Known!" protest line should another airborne terror nightmare occur.

  23. What's wrong with you people? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's wrong with you people? Are you terrorists?

    Every patriotic citizen supports Herr Bush, and his faithful minister Herr Ridge, in their zeal to strengthen the Fatherland, and eliminate the bad elements (terrorists).

    Only subversives refuse to wear the pink stars...

  24. The few good CAPPS ideas by grunt107 · · Score: 1

    centered around the fairly obvious criminal/terrorist lists supposedly broadcast by the government. If the passenger name were/are checked against these lists, the blatant evil-doers (what a fun word!), if that stupid, could be easily apprehended.
    What is needed is a far better infiltration of the terrorist networks. Then disseminate the characteristics to the security agencies. Not a quick fix, but nothing can be a silver bullet (absolute security infringes on liberty, absolute liberty infringes on security).

  25. Voluntary? by 1337+Twinkie · · Score: 1

    How exactly would a voluntary system help?
    Potential terrorists are likely not to provide information on themselves, and non-terrorists who do the same are going to be discriminated against.

    Besides that, the governement is supposed to cater to the people, not the other way around.

    1. Re:Voluntary? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It should help to reduce the number of passengers security has to search at the gate. The group that has voluntarily signed up has already gone through an extensive background search so they are fast-tracked through a different line. If you can lessen the total amount of general passengers you have to search you should have a better chance of finding the terrorist. CAPSII treated everyone as a terrorist and wasted resources on non-threatening passengers.
      The voluntary sign up easily gets around the privacy issue because you don't have to sign up. You can certainly choose to wait in line 2hrs each way or sign all your info over. What great options.

  26. That's the *reporter* being stupid, not Ridge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    The reporter failed to understand the gesture - there's no way Ridge could have indicated where he was driving the imaginary stake with the imaginary hammer.

    The reporter's just plain dumb.

  27. As someone who was flagged in CAPPS I... by velo_mike · · Score: 4, Interesting
    ...how the hell do we fight this?

    I'm a native born, US citizen, of (obvious) northern European ancestory. I have 2 degrees, an honorable discharge and have filed a tax return every year since I was 15 (that's 19 years if you're counting). I held a secret clearance for several years and have been bonded several times. I've had a couple speeding tickets, but never even been accused of any other misdemeanor, let alone a felony. In other words, my life has been documented by our government in quite substantial detail.

    Despite this, every time I fly in the continental US I get searched. At the security screen where everybody else is passed through the x-ray and detector, my shoes are removed, I'm patted down, my hands and shoes are swabbed for explosive residue and my bags are rifled through. When I get to the gate and hand my ticket over, I get hauled off to the side, patted down again, and my bags re-searched. Every plane change, every pass through a gate or security station brings the same result. I have not boarded a flight in the US in the last 3 years without this happening. There is no appeal, there is no questioning why, there is only the choice to submit to this or not fly. My crime? Well, the only event I can come up with is I declared a firearm in my luggage after 9/11. A perfectly legal thing, I followed all the rules - demonstrated it was clear, locked the case, and placed it in the suitcase with the "steal me" tag.

    It's embarassing, being dragged off to stand in the "special line" by myself. Mainly, I wonder what lowlife is getting through while they interogate me? Security personel are a finite resource, people have to be moved through at a reasonable clip or else flights are missed. When they spend 15 minutes with me, that's 15 minutes they could be investigating someone with bad intentions. Mistakes on credit reports can be researched, documented and appealed, usually successfully. This is unappealable, hell, nobody will even admit I've been flagged, it's "random".

    --

    At the bottom of the endless pile of paper work which characterizes all regulation lies a gun.
    Alan Greenspan

    1. Re:As someone who was flagged in CAPPS I... by gcaseye6677 · · Score: 1

      Its quite simple. You are the least terrorist-like person on the flight, along with the old ladies and children, therefore you will be the most likely to be searched. If they actually searched people that were more likely to commit a terrorist act, like Middle Eastern males, all the civil rights groups would be up in arms. Non-threatening people must be searched to keep up the illusion of security and make everyone else feel safe.

    2. Re:As someone who was flagged in CAPPS I... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't fly

    3. Re:As someone who was flagged in CAPPS I... by velo_mike · · Score: 1
      Don't fly

      That's my next step. I'm looking for a new job now and "No Travel" is the big requirement. I figure if I can't drive there, it ain't worth seeing - pretty easy since I'm moving back to the middle of the country, even the coasts are only 3 days away by car or motorcycle.

      --

      At the bottom of the endless pile of paper work which characterizes all regulation lies a gun.
      Alan Greenspan

    4. Re:As someone who was flagged in CAPPS I... by /dev/trash · · Score: 1

      What does the fact that you have 2 degrees have to do with anything?

    5. Re:As someone who was flagged in CAPPS I... by velo_mike · · Score: 1
      What does the fact that you have 2 degrees have to do with anything?

      Well let's see what government DB's I'd be entered in. They're both from state run universities. In both cases I had to apply for federal and state financial aid which involved cross checking with the various income tax entities. I was on the GI bill for the first, that's cross referenced to the DOD. Shall I go on?

      My point is that my life has been thoroughly and completly documented by the state and federal governments. I have entries, all positive, in hundreds of databases. Yet for some reason, I am singled out, harrassed and embarrassed every time I fly, without fail, by agents of that same government. If this were mistake on a credit report I'd be able to locate the offending item and get it corrected, but since we're dealing with "terrorism", there is no admission that I'm even flagged, let alone a process to fix it.

      Re-read my last post, while I'm being harassed, someone with bad intentions may be getting through.

      I posted all the bio information to demonstrate the debris of bits we leave without realizing it, just by trying to get ahead in life. Somewhere, sometime, somehow, one of those bits in my life flipped the "potential terrorist" bit from 0 to 1. Think about that the next time someone wants to start a file on you, for your own good.

      --

      At the bottom of the endless pile of paper work which characterizes all regulation lies a gun.
      Alan Greenspan

    6. Re:As someone who was flagged in CAPPS I... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've found I get searched a lot less if I time my approach to the screening station so I am always behind someone who looks non-anglo, preferably someone who looks middle eastern. More often than not they will get flagged for additional searches, and because the people doing those searches are busy, I usually get right on through.

      I've also found that wearing a shirt with a big US flag on it helps too or when flying out, one with a Texas (where I live) flag on it. Seems like a pretty transparent ploy, but I get a lot more smiles and politeness from the airport security people. Its almost like they'd feel guilty searching someone who is so obviously patriotic...

    7. Re:As someone who was flagged in CAPPS I... by velo_mike · · Score: 1
      I've found I get searched a lot less if I

      Listen to me, it's every time. Every time, without fail, that I board a plane in the US I get the routine. No If's, ands or buts. If I was next to Bin Laden himself, I'd get hauled off and searched. No debate, no question, no explanation, I fly through an airport, I go to the front of the line...

      --

      At the bottom of the endless pile of paper work which characterizes all regulation lies a gun.
      Alan Greenspan

    8. Re:As someone who was flagged in CAPPS I... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should probably contact the ACLU and consider filing a harassment lawsuit.

    9. Re:As someone who was flagged in CAPPS I... by velo_mike · · Score: 1
      You should probably contact the ACLU and consider filing a harassment lawsuit.

      I've been debating about that, even a suit just to get the records opened. I'm a little concerned about getting "doesn't play well with others" and "suspected terrorist" added to my permanent record, I kind of like being gainfully employed... Otoh, keeping anonymous just perpetuates it and if they're fscking me, they're fscking others as well... I've been working up the nerve to post it here for months, even semi-anonymously has taken some doing...

      --

      At the bottom of the endless pile of paper work which characterizes all regulation lies a gun.
      Alan Greenspan

    10. Re:As someone who was flagged in CAPPS I... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      There have been far, far more acts of domestic terrorism committed by Americans than by foreigners.

    11. Re:As someone who was flagged in CAPPS I... by skaffen42 · · Score: 1

      ...how the hell do we fight this?

      May I suggest this solution?

      --
      People couldn't type. We realized: Death would eventually take care of this.
    12. Re:As someone who was flagged in CAPPS I... by velo_mike · · Score: 1
      May I suggest this solution?

      Remember people claiming there was no difference between Bush and Gore? Well, I don't see that this time, rather this is separate but equal evil. Why willingly trade giving up rights a,b, and c for giving up x, y, and z?

      Personally, I can't stomach voting for either of them and will probably throw my vote in for Badnarik. Yes, I know he has exactly a zero percent chance of winning. Yes, I know it's "throwing my vote away" and "helping Bush." Either way, no matter who wins, we're fscked. At least by floating him $50 and voting my conscience, maybe one more person will be exposed to the LP and eventually there will be an actual challenger to the two parties.

      --

      At the bottom of the endless pile of paper work which characterizes all regulation lies a gun.
      Alan Greenspan

    13. Re:As someone who was flagged in CAPPS I... by Tackhead · · Score: 1
      > I can't stomach voting for either of them and will probably throw my vote in for Badnarik.

      Well, at least now we know why you're tagged for search :)

    14. Re:As someone who was flagged in CAPPS I... by skaffen42 · · Score: 1

      I think of it this way...

      Kerry isn't perfect (though you must be really paranoid if you think he can be as bad as Dubya), but even if he is just as bad as Bush it is still better to have him in the White House for the next 4 years than allowing the present idiot to consolidate his position any further. Government should have lots of checks and balances. At the moment everything is controlled by one party, so a lot of those checks have disapeared.

      Ideally Kerry wins and spends four years doing nothing but fighting with the Republicans. A government in stalemate is much better than a government who can do whatever it wants.

      --
      People couldn't type. We realized: Death would eventually take care of this.
    15. Re:As someone who was flagged in CAPPS I... by velo_mike · · Score: 1
      Kerry isn't perfect (though you must be really paranoid if you think he can be as bad as Dubya)

      I don't know, I think with Bush we'll lose reproductive rights, with Kerry it'll be gun rights. Bush will bankrupt us with military spending, Kerry with healthcare and welfare. Bush will try to wreck the economy with corporate welfare, Kerry with protectionism. I see a difference, but yeah, I think one is as bad as the other.

      Ideally Kerry wins and spends four years doing nothing but fighting with the Republicans. A government in stalemate is much better than a government who can do whatever it wants.

      OK, that might be the most sensible and optimistic thought I've seen yet.

      --

      At the bottom of the endless pile of paper work which characterizes all regulation lies a gun.
      Alan Greenspan

    16. Re:As someone who was flagged in CAPPS I... by skaffen42 · · Score: 1

      OK, that might be the most sensible and optimistic thought I've seen yet.

      We can only hope... :)

      --
      People couldn't type. We realized: Death would eventually take care of this.
    17. Re:As someone who was flagged in CAPPS I... by VCAGuy · · Score: 1

      While it may have something to do with your firearm, it's probably most likely the case that your name matches the soundex code of the intended target. At which point, thou art screwed...

      --
      Q: "Why do sound techs say 'check 1, 2'?"
      A: "Cause if they could count any higher they'd be lighting techs."
    18. Re:As someone who was flagged in CAPPS I... by kmankmankman2001 · · Score: 1

      Yes it's inconvenient, but don't you feel better knowing that after those searches there's a much lower likelihood that YOU have carried a bomb onto the plane? :^)

      --
      "The bigger the lie, the more they believe." - Det. Bunk
    19. Re:As someone who was flagged in CAPPS I... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lesson learned: if I am a terrorist then don't declare my firearm. Seems like the security theater just encourages people to not disclose information. Like the case of the guy in Rhode Island who got deported after reporting a murder.

  28. EU off the hook by laurentc · · Score: 1

    Does this mean the EU will not have to provide Data for The "intelligence services".

    That would be good news.

    --
    My drinking team has a Rugby problem
  29. MSNBC encourages launching bombs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    MSNBC appears to have their own online tools for committing terrorist acts. On the right site of the article is a link to "Launch Airline bombs
    Suicide and bomb attacks against airliners" through their special interactive section.

  30. Its all a power grab by CFD339 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    particularly the current flight security lines.

    Lets face facts:

    1. The 911 flights were brought down with box knives that did not go through security at all.

    2. A box knife is no longer an effective way to hijack a plane. This is simply because a hijacked plane is no longer about a 3 day trip to Cuba. Now its about becomming a lawn dart. If you tried to hijack a plane prior to 911 with a knife, maybe we'd sit back and enjoy some cigars when we landed. Today, this firefighter and dozens of other people on the plane are going to shove the box cutter up your ass sideways. I'm not a kung-fu master by any means, but I am a 200 pound man in pretty good shape. Its a narrow plane. If I come running down the isle at you, you are going to fall down. I may get cut with a box cutter. So be it.

    Now, making me wait 3 hours in line so you can take my nail clippers away isn't going to change anything at all. There are LOTS of ways we could still take stuff on planes (and if I can think of them, so can anyone else -- but I'd rather not broadcast them).

    Tom Ridge and his ilk like to keep people scared because they get more power and funding that way. One way to keep people scared is to make them stand like cattle in long lines to give up deadly nail clippers.

    Here's an idea, lets not vote for this administration this time either!

    --
    The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
    1. Re:Its all a power grab by tree_frog · · Score: 1

      I was told that I couldn't take a climbing rope in hand lugage (not metal stuff, just a rope).

      What am I going to do? Tie everyone up?

      regards, treefrog

    2. Re:Its all a power grab by sexylicious · · Score: 1

      It's sad that they focus on making people feel safe rather than actually being safe.

      It's the same thing with SUVs. People drive them thinking they are more safe because they feel safer being higher up. But you're actually less safe due to being more unstable by having your center of gravity so high off the ground.

      Besides... I've always felt safer when I see that 80 year old grandmothers and 50ish, balding fat guys get the rubber-glove-in-the-butt treatment. :|

    3. Re:Its all a power grab by kmankmankman2001 · · Score: 1

      Keep in mind, by taking away all those nail clippers the TSA in inadvertently causing Americans to have longer nails - and thus arming the very people they want to disarm! Let's face it, it's only a matter of time before another plane is hijacked by a group with overly long fingernails . . . all for want of a clipper. When nail clippers are outlawed, only outlaws will have short nails!

      --
      "The bigger the lie, the more they believe." - Det. Bunk
    4. Re:Its all a power grab by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The mods didn't say it, so I will. That truly was funny.

  31. I think I have heard this joke before. by Minwee · · Score: 1

    "This new legislation will encourage airline passengers to provide their names, dates of birth, financial records and DNA samples in exchange for not being rectally probed by airport security every time they want to fly."

    "What do you call this bill?"

    "It's called the Aristocrats."

    1. Re:I think I have heard this joke before. by puppet10 · · Score: 1

      nah aristocrats can take their private jet and not be bothered by that pesky airport security check crap.

      --
      -------- This space intentionally left blank --------
  32. Forget the Privacy Issues .. by z0ink · · Score: 3, Informative

    CAPPS just plain doesn't work. I am a privacy advocate and have sent several letters to my congressmen and representatives apposing CAPPS, but there are graver issues involved here. Beyond the fact that the government will have extremely large neural networked databases built on people to be used for "national security" and to "keep people safe" it actually makes air travel less safe from attack!

    Check out the Carnival Booth paper put out by MIT. It is long and technical, but well worth the read. I would much rather go back to the private security agencies instead of this bullshit TSA no-hs-education-required-we-dont-do-background-che cks-on-our-employess-for-your-safety scam. Repeat after me, TSA and CAPPS has helped weaken security.

    --
    Steal This Sig
    1. Re:Forget the Privacy Issues .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How to make it work.
      Let frequent domestic flyers swipe/scan their passports for quick access. If you are going to treat domestic travel in the same league as international, and passport matching is the bees knees of whatever they are up to - this will reduce costs, and raise efficiency across the board.

      The second way to fix things is to include a right of review for those unjustly targeted for special attention, which they are rightly copping flack over.

    2. Re:Forget the Privacy Issues .. by flaflashr · · Score: 1
      Check out the Carnival Booth paper put out by MIT

      A very interesting theory. However, in this case, practice certainly trumps theory. Does CAPS claim to have caused the capture of any terrorists. It certainly has been in place long enough that it should have by now.

    3. Re:Forget the Privacy Issues .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "have sent several letters to my congressmen and representatives apposing CAPPS"
      "no-hs-education-required"
      I take it you don't need one to post on ./ either..

    4. Re:Forget the Privacy Issues .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't seriously judge CAPS that way -- you have no control, and frankly, you don't have the data on the experiment either (that is, you don't know how many terrorists tried, much less how many decided not to try).

  33. Change? by ChilyWily · · Score: 1

    Well I've seen some folks here state that this is a change and government is recognizing that they cannot infringe on people's privacy etc. I beg to differ - I think it has nothing to do with acknowleding people's privacy, instead, it has everything to do with skirting the law when real abuses come to light.

    Consider, a person whose information is quietly taken and then misused (e.g., credit card fraud). Person discovers and sues airline. Airline claims no liability due to Government regulation/law. Person sues Government. Now if the person had 'voluntarily' provided that information who can he/she sue? And I bet there is going to be a typical sign-off-your-life disclaimer sheet that no one can/will read each time this happens.

    The problem of figuring out a person's intentions is very old. Lists, invasion of privacy, snooping etc. have never yielded any good or reliable results for ordinary people (e.g., the communist witch hunts of not too long ago). However, there are lawful means of doing this which involve judicial review and can stand up in the open daylight (in front of a jury) when challenged to both catch real offenders and not vicitimize innocent folk.

    Sorry no takers here on CAPSS{n}...

    'villains who twirl their mustaches are easy to spot. Those who clothe themselves in good deeds are well camouflaged.'
    Jean-Luc Picard, "The Drumhead"

    1. Re:Change? by geekwench · · Score: 1
      Oh, for the want of a mod point. I hope that someone else sees this and marks you up accordingly.

      One of the big problems that I've always had with CAPPS marks I & II is not "invasion of privacy." My privacy gets invaded to some extent every time the phone rings. I invite a potential invasion of privacy with every business card I hand out. But both of those are reasonably controlled instances. It's simply impossible to live in a vacuum, no matter how hard you try. However, you, as an individual, do and should have the ability to say how personal information gets used.
      Say you apply for a mortgage through one of the online services. Someone looks you up, uses your credit rating to get a loan for himself, then leaves you holding the bag (as well as denying your mortgage appication.) You, as the consumer, can turn around and sue that person, and possibly the loan company as well, into next week. Someone steals your credit card? The bank will go after them on your behalf. Identity theft is still a problem, but legal recourses are finally starting to catch up with said problem. It might be difficult, bt it's do-able - so long as there's accountability somewhere along the line.
      CAPPS is incredibly secretive with its database. As has been said previously in this thread, if there's a error, there's no way to get it corrected, because technically it doesn't exist. "Error? There's no error in the database, sir. And even if there were, there wouldn't be, if you catch my meaning. No more questions." There is no accountability as to how this information is used, there's no way to review it, and if it a TSA employee did decide to misuse your data, there would be no way to hold that person responsible for his / her crime.

      In short: information really doesn't want anything. But I ferdamnsure want to say how information about me is used.

      --
      Doing my level best to piss off the religious right wing...
  34. You can't do that... by aepervius · · Score: 1

    You can't generate cheap vast amount of "dummy data", which have the same quality and diversity of real data for the same price as the real data. Most airline I know of, inclusive the one i work with, on their test system simply copy the real data over. This is really cheap in comparison to generating data. Furthermore our program change are tested against real data, which is more sure than testing against fake dummy data that might be skewed when you generated them.

    This is also *WHY* we all have to sign non disclosure agreement on the DATA not on the source, because of the sensitiveness of the data like credit card info, frequent flyer,address etc... Whereas the source is nearly a public things for who care to get its hand on it.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
  35. Congresscritters? by Corporal+Dan · · Score: 1

    Congresscritters? What are we, five years old?
    Speak like a child, get treated like a child.

  36. no, that's the OTHER conservative agenda.... by CFD339 · · Score: 1

    The rope isn't about terrorism, its about their SOCIAL agenda.

    They're afraid you'll engage in an autoerotic strangulation act. The idea of someone getting off in any way other than that responsible for procreation is abhorent to them.

    --
    The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
  37. New improved by t_allardyce · · Score: 2, Funny

    Its a great idea, keep a database of terrorists - kinda like the pedophile lists, so once they've done one offence and got on the list you can make sure they dont get on a plane again. I also like the name check system that checks to see if a terrorist has made a fake ID with an anagram of their name or their same date of birth! Biometrics is going to be the key here, you've got to iris scan everyone to make sure they are who they said they were at the passport office or who they told that guy they got the fake ID from.

    One idea though - why not add one of those little "Are you a terrorist?" tick-boxes when you buy tickets? I think if they also asked you the same question at the gate they could check to see if you had changed your choice - which would mean you were probably not telling the truth.

    Some great ideas here. Oh BTW If they do start doing all that bank account checking stuff and they discover lots of money going between Saudi-Arabia and certain people in the US, they might want to make an exception if the person in question is the owner of any oil companies or their name begins with "prince" because obviously they're not terrorists! that would be abit embaressing, especially if Bush got pulled over trying to get on Air Force 1!

    --
    This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
    1. Re:New improved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One idea though - why not add one of those little "Are you a terrorist?" tick-boxes when you buy tickets?

      The next thing you know people will be suggesting that everyone has to take a polygraph before they get on the plane...

    2. Re:New improved by t_allardyce · · Score: 1

      And why not? granted it would take abit of time but you could get a polygraph every couple of months and get a certificate? This would also stop people cheating at customs.

      --
      This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
  38. TOP Secret : CAPPS2 is mainly set of HMO Dbases!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    TOP Secret : CAPPS2 is mainly set of HMO Dbases!!!

    Yup.

    Its a fact. All the CAPPS2 mainly does is send your DOB (date of birth) general residence area and name to a 3rd party contractor database of merged "semi-anonymized" HMO database records that contain no medical data, just action dates, locations, birthdates and names !!!

    Anyone not showing up for healthcare ever or only in recent years is flagged as possible terrorist.

    And all the other info they talk about year after year is a smokescreen.

    Its merely a check against medical insurance databases of the major insurance providers, both public and private.

    HA!!!!

    You read it here first. I never signed any nondisclosure documents or possessed any docs of interest, but its 100% true.

    (FBI shill accts will mod this -1 as there are many gov employees that scan slasdot merely to mod down anon exposes such as this)

  39. one of the ways CAPPS was supposed to work... by ladyeyes · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I was doing research in a Senate office when this was a hot topic last summer. One of the things that was being looked at was having CAPPS check into the credit records of people to see things like: Do they have a long credit history in this country? Do they have a mortgage, car loan, student loans? These sorts of questions were supposed to help screen for people who had only been in the country for a very limited time and living in a more "limited" fashion.

    There were, as you can imagine, an insane number of troubles and issues with this approach. And our office was one of the ones that screamed bloody murder over these issues.

    1. Re:one of the ways CAPPS was supposed to work... by chadjg · · Score: 1

      Is it possible to go back to your old bosses and ask to spill details? Maybe it is good publicity and I'm curious.

      --
      Why do I have this? I don't smoke.
  40. Correction by crawling_chaos · · Score: 1
    The last sentence should read:

    I would note that if "papers, please" becomes a regular part of travel in this country, then what makes this country special is dead.

    I need to use the preview button more often. Oh, and more coffee, too.

    --
    You can only drink 30 or 40 glasses of beer a day, no matter how rich you are.
    -- Colonel Adolphus Busch
    1. Re:Correction by TopShelf · · Score: 1

      Either way, I think you're taking the proposal to the ridiculous extreme. What I'm talking about is that if you're going to get on a commercial flight, that your ID (which you have to present already) be checked against law enforcement "wanted" lists such as warrants for arrest.

      You as a passenger wouldn't be asked for any further documentation than you already provide - it's just that law enforcement would have an opportunity to apprehend suspects that are trying to travel. In my mind, this wouldn't be useful just for terrorists, but a broader class of criminals as well.

      --
      Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
    2. Re:Correction by WNight · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The problem is that the airlines are big backers of the ID requirement. It doesn't do a lot to increase security because fake ID is fairly cheap and all terrorists would have to do would be pick suicide bombers without a record. What it does do is increase revenue by cutting out the ticket resale market.

      It used to be that you could sell your ticket if you changed your plans, now you have to try to get a partial refund and the airline can sell a last-minute ticket to someone else at three times the cost. If you had sold the ticket they'd have only been paid once - the horror.

      In almost all other areas of our society you are able to buy a service and resell it. If I contract to have your company ship an industrial container across the country you can't refuse later because I resold the left-over space and made a profit. If I buy a book you can't stop me from reselling it, or ripping out the pages and selling them individually if I want. The airlines though saw this great opportunity to, using the bogey-man of terrorism, prevent all resale of their products.

      You can't even say the 9/11 terrorists would have been caught had we checked ID because they'd have known about the ID checks and bought fake ID or used someone whose record is clean. Wow, so we cost the terrorists a few hundred dollars for fake ID, we don't prevent the attacks, and we burden everyone with this annoying, useless, and potentially dangerous invasive system.

      Sure, sometimes trading liberties for security is a good value, but I'd like to see how they honestly expect to improve security. As is, I think I'm being asked to trade liberties for a placebo, and another government-mandated airline bailout package.

    3. Re:Correction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or maybe you should just stop trying to prove the Colonel wrong.

  41. And now for the inevitable frog-bashing by ThinWhiteDuke · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I certainly don't hear a whole lot of French people complaining about the well-documented practice of French airlines assisting French corporations in industrial espionage.

    I'm not new here, I should not be surprised. Everytime there's a political discussion, some neo-con starts bashing the French for the most unlikely reason.

    I thought I had seen it all. According to our well-documented accusers, we sold weapons to Saddam during the embargo, we sold him nuclear weapons, we stole Iraq oil, we're antisemitic, we hate Americans, we've killed Rwandan babies, we protect Serbian fascists, we don't bath... But what I had not yet heard is that our airlines (that would be Air France, I guess) practice industrial espionage. Wow, that's a serious accusation! Bear in mind, next time you're on an Air France flight that your French competitor will know whether you chose beef or chicken!!!

    Of course, nobody can never show any evidence for such well-documented facts. It doesn't seem to matter. The French apparently committed a deadly sin when they tried to prevent the US from doing (what IMHO is) a huge mistake in Irak. So anything goes against them. It doesn't matter if it makes sense or not, it's true as long as it bashes the French.

    Some of these accusations might be true though. I'm perfectly aware that my country has not always be on the right side and that we've had our share of dark hours or shameful years. I just feel that as a whole, the balance is positive. Maybe I'm even wrong here. And I'm ready to discuss that with anyone interested in an honest debate. But all this constant hatred against the French is something else entirely, and frankly it's frightening.

    I do not fear for my country. We've been through worse situations than being bad-mouthed by O'Reilly or some anonymous geek on Slashdot. No, I fear for the US. A country I and most French people love, whatever you're told on Fox News. You know, we're not perfect in France. Our words and actions are not guided by God, more by plain old human experience. And one lesson we learned from being occupied by the Nazis for 4 years: If you let yourself hate someone solely based on his religion, color or nationality, you're on a very, very dangerous slope.

    --

    It would be nice to be sure of anything the way some people are of everything.
    1. Re:And now for the inevitable frog-bashing by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 1

      The French were just an easy example; however, when your own press says your intelligence agency routinely eavesdrops on business conversations and distributes data to recipients including both government agencies and French companies, it's a pretty good bet they do in fact commit industrial espionage. The French do it. The Germans do it. The Israelis, South Koreans, Japanese, all of them do it. The US probably does it too.

      Business travelers talk business in the air. There have been a lot of cases of industrial espionage, either accused or proven, where the assumption is government agencies were involved (Boeing winglet design stolen for Aerospatiale, Tu-144 copying Concorde, French black-bag and bugging jobs against IBM's euro offices). It is documented.

      I have nothing against the French. But I admit my country's faults when they're legit - do you?

      (oh, and fuck you. I'm a liberal anti-Bush voter from an urban area who uses mass transportation, can't stand SUVs, believes in strong privacy rights, human rights, and civil rights. I can't possibly watch Fox News because I don't have cable TV. Don't ad hominem me just because your country happens to be one of the prime examples of governmental espionage feeding business intel to corporate interests.)

      --

      ---
      Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
      (I read with sigs off.)
  42. re: flawed logic about highjackers' warrants by nusratt · · Score: 1

    "The 9/11 terrorists . . . but weren't a few of them wanted for various warrents?" [sic]

    There were one or more motor-vehicle-related warrants. That's a pretty slender reed on which to hang our hopes of averting terrorism.

    1. If little or no terrorism is averted by checking for things like traffic warrants, then why bother?
    2. However, if you really feel that even the slimmest chance is worth pursuing, then why stop with airports?
    After all, we're looking for terrorists of any kind, not just highjackers. So, why not make it a regular, permanent practice to randomly detain people at bus stations, hospital admissions, grocery stores, etc. -- in other words, all the places that people pretty much can't avoid going -- and check them for unresolved citations, uncollected civil judgments, overdue property tax, delinquent child-support payments, failure to report for jury duty, marijuana-breath, and anything else which might lead to a temporarily plausible arrest (even if not a conviction or incarceration)?
    And, of course, if even the remotest possible justification for an arrest is found, then an arrest will be made, with or without any suspected connection to terrorism -- just like they're now doing in airports, thanks to the post-9/11 laws.

    The fact is, no matter *what* purpose the legislators actually intended, whenever law-enforcement officials are handed a weapon of *any* kind, they look for every possible opportunity to use it beyond its intended purpose -- for example, using the threat of RICO laws to persecute [sic] people whose acts have nothing to do with organized crime. It has been well-documented that they've already been doing that with the Patriot Act, using it to conduct prosecutions and secret *warrantless* searches in cases which clearly have nothing to do with terrorism.

  43. Effectiveness? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Could someone please explain how the heck these sorts of incredibly stupid ideas make it so far down the line towards implementation? I mean, have the people involved not read the Carnival Booth paper?

    How does green lighting certain people protect us if these same people suddenly decide to do something nefarious? What about the ground crew? I have good friends that work at O'Hare and they'll tell you flat out that security on the tarmac is a joke. People holding doors open for others, an underground tunnel system that runs all over the place, poor perimeter security, etc. Why not simply secure the cockpit and post air marshalls with tasers?

  44. Re:My Guess... by symbolic · · Score: 1


    The program will be reincarnated with new spin and a new name- much like what happened with TIA.

  45. Poor design and no testing - booyah! by gelfling · · Score: 1

    Couple that with neofascist political agendas and you have the Perfect Government Project.

    Wait let me guess, the problem with the system is that it didn't spit back a list of names the administration already wanted it to spit back. Guess they'll have to fire the new Intelligence Chief cuz as we all know, the WH never lies.

  46. Are you a terrorist? by Nitish · · Score: 1

    One idea though - why not add one of those little "Are you a terrorist?" tick-boxes when you buy tickets?

    Quoting from the second page of the US Department of State's current Form DS-156, Nonimmigrant Visa Application:
    Do you seek to enter the United States to engage in export control violations, subversive or terrorist activities, or any other unlawful purpose? Are you a member or representative of a terrorist organization as currently designated by the U.S. Secretary of State? (Y/N)

    That what you were looking for? :-)

    1. Re:Are you a terrorist? by t_allardyce · · Score: 1

      Yes i know, which is exactly why it should be added to _ALL_ persons on _ALL_ flights. It works so damn well!

      --
      This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
  47. Re: "useful"?! by nusratt · · Score: 1

    TopShelf said: "In my mind, this wouldn't be useful just for terrorists, but a broader class of criminals as well."

    . . . which is exactly the objection. If you're just horny to find perps, then why stop wih the airport?

    Hmmm, perhaps you'd also like to make them TWO FEET TALL

  48. re: warrant, "whether to arrest the person"?! by nusratt · · Score: 1

    TopShelf: "Also, they could include on the list what the warrant is for, and use that information in making a determination as to whether to arrest the person."

    What country do YOU live in?
    When have you ever seen someone with the authority to make an warrant-arrest bypass the opportunity?

  49. Jesus Christ, mods, mod parent up! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    subject says it all

  50. Re:At least 4 of the hijackers are still alive. by rush22 · · Score: 1

    Hijacker 'suspects' alive and well.

    CAPPS II would have either caught the wrong people and/or innocent people. The FBI's hijacker list was incorrect and probably still is.

  51. Security, El Al style by Will+Shaw · · Score: 2, Interesting

    El Al, the Israeli airline, is world-reknowned for its security measures.

    Here's an informative article from Business Week about a year ago.

    The point is that effective and efficient security can be achieved, and it doesn't require this sort of extreme federal legislation. I think that if US carriers and airports look to the example set by El Al, air travel would be much safer.

    --
    "Interesting side note: as a head without a body, I envy the dead."
  52. Re: flawed logic about highjackers' warrants by kmankmankman2001 · · Score: 1

    But weren't some of them on expired visas? You know, those things we use to control the access of non-citizens into America? Who was it that said laws that aren't enforced are just advice? Truman?

    --
    "The bigger the lie, the more they believe." - Det. Bunk
  53. I liked the part where Steve McQueen. . . by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 1
    jumps the fence on a motorcycle.

    I always wondered what would have happened if he'd made that second jump into Switzerland and freedom. . .

    Anyway, don't worry about Tom Ridge. Despite delays, he'll have the American infernal security machine up and running like a big pig-processing plant before WWIII hits American shores. Unless you all do something about it first. . .

    Otherwise, it's "Heil Bush!" (Or Kerry, or whothefuckever happens to be residing after the big November event.)

    I think I'm going to split this version of reality; it's getting a bit too ugly for my liking. See you guys, later! Vrooom!


    -FL

  54. are these people really clueless? by geoff+lane · · Score: 1

    You can collect terabytes of low grade information and look for little diamonds of high grade intelligence.

    Guess what?

    You will find them by the score.

    You are attempting to identify an extremely rare occurence - maybe 1 person in a billion boards a plane with the intent to highjack it - the false positives will always dominate the results. The cops will be chasing shadows, detaining and searching the wrong people.

    Spend the money on real security, such as security guard training (and better pay.)

  55. Re: flawed logic about highjackers' warrants by nusratt · · Score: 1

    "But weren't some of them on expired visas?"

    No one's saying, "No one should ever be be detained or investigated, regardless of reason."
    No one's saying, "Every single word of [the Patriot Act, etc.] is tyrrany."

    Of course passports and visa should be checked. And I don't have a problem with a procedure which validates that your identification is genuine, that you're not on a list of terrorism suspects under surveillance, or even that you're not wanted for a violent crime.

    I DO have a problem with a process which can get someone arrested, in the course of trying to board a plane, with no evidence of any *terrorism*-related concern.
    I DO have aproblem with a process which denies boarding to people whose names are on a secret list, with NO due-process provisions for judicial review or determining the reason or having the decision amended.
    And I have a VERY big problem with a process which uses terrorism and uses language about Fatherland and patriot-versus-traitor, as an excuse to search people's financial and medical records, and to collect and record data about citizens' travel activities, with no *effective* *independently* verifiable guarantees that the data is immediately discarded after determining that there's no reasonable cause for concern.

  56. Re: flawed logic about highjackers' warrants by kmankmankman2001 · · Score: 1

    I don't really disagree with much of what you've said . . . I just don't follow how you choose to tack this on to my question about whether or not some of the terrorists in question were on expired visas - and not even answer the damned question. Do you not understand how message threading works?

    --
    "The bigger the lie, the more they believe." - Det. Bunk
  57. Re: flawed logic about highjackers' warrants by nusratt · · Score: 1

    " . . . my question about whether or not some of the terrorists in question were on expired visas - and not even answer the damned question."

    Look again: right at the top I said, "Of course passports and visa should be checked."

    I don't think you were in fact in doubt about the terrorists' visas and asking me to confirm your impression of the facts. It seemed pretty obvious to me that you were in effect saying, "Their visas had expired, so wouldn't a strict security regime like CAPPS have helped to catch them in time?"

    At least, that's how I interpreted it when you said: "You know, those things we use to control the access of non-citizens into America? Who was it that said laws that aren't enforced are just advice?"

    "answer the damned question. Do you not understand how message threading works?"

    Don't be rude. What purpose does it serve?

  58. Use existing technologies instead by Dataminer · · Score: 1
    All of this just means that we need to identify terrorists BEFORE they get into airport, not wait until everyone checked in and then try to figure out if someone is a threat.

    The thing I am most concerned about is US government steadfast desire to build the huge comprehensive single system for identifying threats. This does not work. There are two problems about any "lets build a huge database to tackle XYZ":

    1) There are inherent assumptions built into any such system, which means it will be looking at the things in a particular way. If this way of thinking is identified, terrorists will adapt accordingly and slip through.

    2) Current state-of-the-art in data mining technologies is very good for data analysis, but bad for making final decisions. This is the last bit between collating and analyzing information and assigning color codes to passengers, which is trouble. Why force the technology into something it is not designed to? Lets instead provide collated information to security officer looking at a particular person for him/her to make the final decision

    Instead, US government should consider taking the best of commercial and semi-commercial systems used by different agencies and in different fields, apply them to the same data and try to cross-reference the results. Each one will go its own way and one might score. From the top of my head:

    There is a CopLink from Knowledge Computing Corp. Granted - it looks at existing criminal records in US, but it is a start.

    There is LAS NameHunter for name recognition (but CAPPS 2 is probably using it)

    There are piece of technology which are used in domain other then security, but could/should be easily adapted to do the job:

    There is "Anonymous Entity Resolution" from SRD, which is used by casinos to cross-reference the entry identification information.

    There is HyperDossier/QueryConstructor from Intellidos which are being used by pharmaucetical companies to sift through huge sets of drug activity data

    There is Infoglide's Bladeworks, which tracks similarities between different online identities (I understand eBay is using it to stop rampant scams in its auctions)

    There are dozens of other companies working in the field.