Slashdot Mirror
Build Your Robot Online
An anonymous reader writes "Ever needed a custom part for a robot, case mod or hardware hack but
lacked the tools or a machineshop to make one for you? Ever needed a custom circuit board? Well, PC Magazine's Bill Machrone writes about a few websites, Emachineshop and Pad2Pad, where you use their free software to design, price, and order anything you can design with the software. This is more useful to
slashdotters than 3D 'printing' technologies like rapid prototyping since you get real working parts. It looks like they support a number of machines and fabrication techniques beyond traditional machining, like plastic injection molding and waterjet. As Machrone says, this is empowering stuff. This is something that should ignite a creative spark to all you hardware tinkerers out there in Slashdot land."
/nerdy laugh
What's an Emachine? Vimachines are better and lighter!
We now have a new source of fresh meat for robot wars!
Man, there have been a number of times that I've been trying to build something, and ended up with the hacked HomeDepot route.
It involves going to said Mega Store, browse through their crappy selection (3 items, but 200 of each) and then beating the snot out of it back at your house to try and make it do what you want.
I really hope that this technology stays in the hands of people who love to build and tinker, and doesn't just end up the "Next big thing" for some retail chain. I have a feeling it would wipe out the variabilty like it has in everything else they touch.
I've always had ideas and then lacked the mechinical ability to construct them. I can finally build tons of junk. If only it were free...
Help Fight SPAM today!
Judging by the current poll, i'd say this is distinctly ON topic.
in bed.
There must be tens of thousands of people out there trying to build some home-brew device needing custom designed parts. Most of them can design them (or get them designed) but few have the resources to get them made. Something like this will give them the chance to make their ideas and dreams come true. I wonder how many inventors have failed simply because they could neither buy or build the one thing they needed to get their idea to work. Only time will tell, of course, but I'd bet this will be a great help to people who's imagination goes further than their skills can follow.
Good, inexpensive web hosting
Well it's still a bit pricy (eMachineShop) -- figure $50 to $100 for a simple one off part. But it certainly is an interesting idea.
They claim that their software and service is accessible for neophyte 3D designers. I certainly fit into that category. As soon as I get some spare time [flips through calandar...], well someday, I'll download the software and play around with it. It costs nothing to experiment and get a price quote.
Same with the circuit board design site. I've got a couple of designs that I've wanted to put together some boards for. If nothing else the thought of free schematic design software is appealing.
I can't help but think that this is the future of jump starting small businesses...
Wanted: witty unique signature. Must be willing to relocate.
Can someone more familiar with machining comment on their samples prices? It seems a little expensive for the pieces they list. I can imagine something much more intricate would cost a small fortune. Granted, the prices go down with quantity but most hobbiests aren't going to order 100+ pieces of a part.
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
System Requirements for Pad2Pad: Windows 98/ME/2000/XP
eMachineShop: Requires Windows 95, 98, ME, 2000, NT, or XP. 6 mb.
This is free (free beer) but not open source.
Sorry...
but you can Checker, Chess, and Poker... (Please read aloud to find amusement in joke)
- Your stupidity got you into this mess, why can't it get you out? -Will Rogers
I have used emachineshop on a few occasions. ... I found them about a year a go
January 8, 2004 eMachineShop today announced the pre-opening of their new online service
See also: Robot Builder's Bonanza. Lists where you can actually get your hands on stuff.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
But can they design a surface-piercing prop for an 8Hp powerplant? All the marine shops have props for 200-400Hp, but that much power isn't allowed by the LNBS Rules
Windows only, deal with it.
// TODO: fix sig
Depending on their closed source Windows only app for designing things is a deal breaker. To make it "easy to use" it has to be crap for a skilled computer user. The sort of people they would be aiming at. Plus the Windows only requirement eliminates me instantly.
/. but PC World.
But notice how both sites are obviously the same company. I think we just saw a sponsored story, not on
Democrat delenda est
Courtesy of the Windows operating system.
Cool, I could build a robot catgirl. I'd charge $50 per "session" and become rich! Why, you sexless Linux-loving bastard Slashdot drones alone could put my great-grandchildren through college!
Is a place that you can tell you ideas to and they can tell you what kinda circuit board you need and what parts it needs on it.
Anyone know any place like that?
EMachineshop still has substantial setup costs, but the production costs aren't too bad. Price quantity 1 and quantity 10, and see what you get.
Another useful resource is Front Panel Express, which makes flat panels with holes and lettering.
Intelligence
Sense of humor
Social skills
Similar interests
Kindness and generosity
Compatible belief system
Good looks
Earning potential
oh, and big knockers.
For people like me, who have lots of great ideas (you'll just have to trust me on that one), but no training in how to make them a reality and somewhat of a phobia about going out and dealing with real people, this could be a really great thing, like wheelchair ramps or tin openers that're easy to use (the latter is still to be invented methinks). The accessibility of this system could potentially cause a huge increase in innovation as people who previously were intimidated and/or didn't know where to begin can now see how everything works and deal with it in a straight-forward format. It may be similar to the explosion of low-medium income individuals actively involved in share trading since that system was simplified by the internet and the costs pushed down. It might hurt the more technologically backwards machine-shops, but it'll take a long time for established businesses to move their custom elsewhere, so everyone will have time to adapt to the new competitive topography. That said, if any do go under, they probably weren't worth keeping (please don't flame me if you work in or own a struggling machine shop). I wonder if I could design and order a custom machine shop, then start my own online machine shop business.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I wonder if they would ship certain centrifuges made from aluminum to countris like Iran or North Corea. On a more seriouse note so, how do they make sure that their services are not used for unlawfull purposes?
who | grep -i blond | date cd ~; unzip; touch; strip; finger; mount; gasp; yes; uptime; umount; sleep
While i admit i didnt read TOO far in depth.. i didnt see any obvious info for pricing @ the e-machine shop...
Plus what about security, that they wont just run off with your design?
At least dealing with a machine shop in person, its a bit safer and you get a real cost estimate up front.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I call him Keith. He's my old neighbour.
Disgustingly dull, predictable and thus karma whoring. What next? A spade.
Says Techno Vampire
"Wow. Can use it for digging up dirt! Could be a boon to gardeners across the planet and anyone else who needs to shift top soil or perhaps even move anything shovelable into the back of van. I wonder how how many people have not planted trees because there were not holes in the ground! Only time will tell though, it could be rather fatiguing in the long run"
Dont bother flaming... now i see that their software gives you the quote...
But the security still is a concern.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Since we're on the topic of pet projects, has anybody ever built their own, fully-featured fibre channel backplane? I've looked on google for designs, but to no avail...
its a lot cheaper to freeform your own, and its pretty cheap to learn how, its all at one of these sites: sloarbotics.net solarbotics.com or you can check out the BEAM robotics ring at yahoo.com
Do these two clown companies think they are selling hardware or software? They have a great hardware idea, but why ruin it all by requiring their proprietary Windows-only "easy-to-use" software?
They are giving the software away anyway, so why don't they go open source? And use a standardized documented file format? They could get help from they community with enhancing and fixing their SW. Ports to Linux and Mac would be possible if there were interested users. Most people designing stuff already have CAD programs and would like to reuse their designs. Could be possible if their format was open.
Why do some companies embrace the old fashioned hoarded (M$) software model even when they have little to win and much to lose by it? Idiots! Grrrrr
)9TSS
distilled with custom milled distillery and temperature monitor boards crafted for the purpose
There are no atheists when recovering from tape backup.
Y'know, this sort of thing is perfect for open-source hardware projects.
Typically, if a group wants to develop a Cool New Machine, they can do the actual R&D online with CAD software and possibly build a few prototypes. However, once the design is actually done, there's nowhere else to go with it unless they can convince some hardware manufacture that it'll sell enough to justify a production run.
But now, they just need to convert the design to whatever format Pad2Pad uses and put it up for download. Anyone who wants one just needs to send in a copy and a credit card number and they're done.
This could lead to some interesting new hardware.
I work in the PCB (Printed Circuit Board) industry, and I've looked at the Pad2pad website before. The problem with them is this - they give you software to create a board in, but it only outputs in their proprietary format. That means your design can only be fabricated by pad2pad, not by anyone else. So, once you've designed in their software, you are locked into ordering boards from them. You cannot order them anywhere else unless you re-design it in another software package.
/. people like that sort of thing). This means that you can send your design to any PCB shop in the world, and they can read it as easily as you can work with a *.bmp.
There are older DOS freeware PCB layout packages called easytrax and autotrax available from Protel , as well as a free 30 day demo of their latest. There is also a Linux PCB layout package available. These packages output gerber data, which is the industry standard data format for circuit boards. It is also an open format (rumor has it
You can even send your gerber data to pad2pad, and they can make your board from that, though they would prefer if you used their software. After all, if you don't, you'll be able to get the boards make somewhere else if you don't like their service.
And that would be so unfashionable - doncha know proprietary lock-in is all the rage these days?
I've been reading about how to build a Gingery Charcoal/Gas Foundary and homemade metal-cutting lathe. Today I finally ordered the books from Amazon.
.001" or greater without needed precision parts, and learn a ton in the process.
"All you need is an old metal, 5-gallon pail, about $6 worth of fireclay, some sand, a junk auto heater fan with a coffee can shroud (or a vacuum cleaner), and this book to build a high temperature furnace."
You can use it to melt aluminum, zinc, and bronze which you can then pour/cast into sand molds. The nice thing is that you can assemble the lathe accurate to
Once you've done that, you can cast any other parts you want and machine them to your specifications for far cheaper than using this service. If you didn't make the part quite right, no worries, melt it down and recast it.
I'm planning to build this to machine parts of hobby sterling and steam engines and the ability to construct precision prototypes whenever I have an idea about something. No more tin cans, balsa wood, and RTV sealant! Yay.
Lots of other people have websites chronicling their projects based on these books.
I think this will be a great tool for researchers at universities and companies. No longer will you have to contact the hardware group, beg and plead, and wait forever just to make a simple prototype. Instead, just send a simple an online order, and they will deliver the prototype to your doorstep.
Will they make these
or these?
As I understand it, you can also send in a board layout made in another program (e.g. Eagle, ORCAD, etc.) : see the FAQ near "Gerber" (a popular board-design file format).
Caveat Emptor is not a business model.
You can buy "blank" boards, covered completely in copper on one side. I did the design in Illustrator, printed it out on a laser printer, and transferred the laser ink to the copper. The ink works as a good resist for the ferric chloride etching solution, which is also cheap and easy to buy.
Then you get a shallow dish that you're not planning on using again (some old tupperware, e.g.), and swish the board around until the extra copper's gone. A 100-watt lamp keeps the ferric warm and makes everything go a little faster.
The etching doesn't take more than half an hour, and the projects I've built have worked well.
Imagine the new level of car mods that will be possible! Their material list includes carbon fiber, right?!?!
I have not used pad2 pad or emachinesop but I have used pcb123 and express pcb with good results. PCB123 is very basic while express pcb is full of time comsuming features.
I have a Daweoo and getting parts for it is sometimes not easy. I wonder if they could machine a replacement brake shoe or fender for me? (I have grave doubts I could supply them with the specs, though...)
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
When Open Source hits the physical world, a lot more people outside Slashdot are going to be noticing.
To do anything advanced you need proper design tools and more capable fabrication plants.
:/
Unfortuantely because no one can sell this software to the mass market and they generally don't trust people to not buy a version which can't be used to produce commercial works the software licences come in in between 5000 dolars and 10,000 dolars
As a now un-employed graduate, I couln't afford the tax on that, let alone the software itself.
I want to build fighting robots .
Another link.
I need a PLAN, because this is not a totally free service, and due to that slight misunderstanding with INTERPOL I seem to be a little short of available funds this week... hmmm.
Hmm, I wonder.... hhmmm.. EUREKA! I send in the plans to construct... a specificly designed piece of paper, with very complex patterns, and a large number divisible by 10, seeminly "engraved" right into the paper,with very artisitic renditions of old revered leaders, and to top it off- an embedded "security" strip in it.... tell them I need... uhh ONE MILLION copies of this construction.. YES! then I can go on and build NEAT STUFF!
Hot Amazon Babe Robot Army and Flying Cars! Finally within my grasp!
MUAHHAHAHAHAHHA!11!11!
Hey, you forgot to add:
RTFA, because they take a dfx file, NERRRD!
Seriously. I STOPPED using linux because of slashdot! That, and because a simple java Swing app on my LinuxPPC distro would cause the box to FREEZE. And didn't come with inetd.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
If this place will machine receivers for firearms?
Seems to me that this would be a quick was to fab some high quality home made firearms.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
People who want to do circuit boards should check out PCBPOOL running with the Target CAD software. Target is much more advanced than the "toy" programs offered by ExpressPCB or Pad2pad (e.g.: auto-router, schematic capture, full component database, etc). See here for more info.
If only it were real.
I downloaded their program and tried it. Unfortunately, the list of available parts is a joke. There are only a few ICs. It's just a sample. I'd thought the idea was that you could order anything in the Digi-Key catalog, but no. You're limited to one pull-down menu of parts. They don't even have a consistent range of resistor values; there are wierd gaps.
They're expensive, too. I laid out a tiny board with two connectors and a voltage regulator. They want about $100 for the blank board, $50 extra to mount the voltage regulator.
they take forever to make. making the castings is not as hard as making the patterns and scraping the parts, in addition, 1800 degree aluminum radiates alot of heat T^4 and burns most anything organic. If you want to try this, find someone who already has,and see if you can borrow some of the patterns.
i am so very tired....
Wooohooo, I'm gonna be the next Alienware.
I'm gonna buy $1500 worth of computer parts, wrap some cheap plastic courtesy of this company, and resell it for $3000!
"I'm not talking to myself, I'm just the only one who's listening." - Jimmies Chicken Shack
Thier websites are running PHP but thier software only runs on Windows.
:(
We are still years away from a Linux desktop.
It will be interesting to see this develop as the next 'DRM' intellectual property war..
... you're busted."
"That is an 'illegal' unlicenced wingnut
Do you only support Windows?
Yes currently. We expect to have a pure-web version in the future.
If you'd spend a few moments to quit your bitching and read the FAQ, you'd see that they're working on a web version, which means that you'll pretty much be able to use it on any computer connected to the web. It doesn't say when that'll happen, but at least they're working on it.
Not auto salvage yards, but places like the Governments DRMS (Defense Reutilization and Marketing Service) and other places where over orders or non-completion resulted in "I" beams, sheet metals, hydraulic pumps and motors, controllers, stuff I bought that I don't know what it does but looks cool, heavy, and expensive; and lots of other cool stuff, much of it never used and well cared for, could be found, sometimes for $60/ton! (A consideration on a 45 ton mobile machine). Seems it is cheaper for them to sell it than to store it or ship it out of Alaska. I built the drive from sprockets, chains, and drives of a cement mixer truck, and the primary scrubber is an extra piece of the Trans-Alaska Pipeline, so it's got a little bit of history to it. Best part of all is that it requires maintenance or attendance only once per day, and cost less than $100,000 to build. The performance, after a little tweaking in the field, exceeded my expectations. My next target is to make it so it digs and feeds itself. Now accepting resumes and letters of interest.
-cp-
How hard would it be to use CAD plans, say for an
AK-47 and submit them to this place? it would seem like this could be used for manufacturing items more dangerous than simple hobbies. If the different parts were submitted separately, they could slip by unnoticed by the emachineshop folks.
Really, a CAD design for the bolt assembly of an AK-47 could easily be machined by these guys.
Machine your own assault weapons? Discount for 1000+ quantities? No waiting period? Great!
One of my favorite things in grad school was the laser cutter in the mech E dept. I was happy when i found Pololu which does laser cutting for $2.50 per minute. Actually having a CAD system like this is brilliant, though.
Finally all of that experience playing Robot Odyssey on the Apple II is gonna pay off!
Why don't these guys learn to implement their business client apps in Java? Or at least in a portable fashion?
For all you "Synthetic Lifeforms Assembled for Sabotage and Harm/Devices Optimized for Troubleshooting", don't forget CyborgName.com. Not only will it make a robot for you out of your own name, it will print you up one on a mug or a T-Shirt.
There is also that guy who says that you can build a "decent" robot for about 50$.
No GNU has been Hurd during the making of this comment.
I'll second this. I bought this book series, and got as far as making the charcoal foundry. It's cool to be able to make my own aluminum castings, but it requires a lot of sweat and patience.
Your design to a real part online: Big Blue Saw
Neet !
wanted: one clever sig,apply within
Emachineshop seems to be a bit limited in the parts they can make. I prefer to use the services of the fellow robot builders at Team Whyachi. They don't mind handling small quantities and have great prices.
Your design to a real part online: Big Blue Saw
A great picture
CustomPCB http://www.custompcb.com/ does not have their own software, but has some of the lowest prices for low volume PCBs that I have seen.
Cadsoft Eagle - With free as in beer version
A ton of boardhouses that do small runs
If you can put together a decent drawing package for your parts, local machine shops might also bid the part - and possibly be more competitive. If you can find a small shop that is a bit slow on work, they will often pick up small jobs just to keep the machinists and machines working. It never hurts to get multiple quotes.
"Uh... yeah, Brain, but where are we going to find rubber pants our size?" --Pinky
Having tried such services I'd like to offer my insights into this matter: The "cool factor" of being able to design parts on your computer at home, wait a few days, then have them show up at your door in physical form is undeniable. However, anyone who has actually used these services knows that "cool" comes at a price. Specifically, a very high one. In some cases, for the same amount of money one of these services would charge, you could buy all the materials and tools to do it yourself. However, many people have special designs that would be nearly impossible to produce even in the most well-equipped home workshop, including designs using very thick or tough materials, or those which require precise computer-controlled machining. The situation in the case of printed circuit boards is similar. You usually end up paying at least $40 per board for commercial services, while for most applications, for the same $40 you could make 20 boards on your own (copper-clad board can be had for $0.02 per square inch if you know where to look, and the chemicals are pretty cheap too). The big difference is quality. Professionally-made boards can have smaller, closer traces, multiple layers, through-plated vias, and more precisely-aligned holes. It's up to you to decide whether it's worth the extra money to have your items made professionally.
Damn, I'm getting tired of this. Windows has fucking 90+% of the market.
It's unfortunate that Linux users tout freedom, but they don't like the freedom to choose. I want to be free to use my windows boxes whenever I feel like it. Not every piece of software should exist on all platforms. That just leads to one crappy generic platform like windows is and linux is becoming.
Let's see more OS innovation. Let's see more freedom. But fuck you all if you are going to dictate that I'm going to have to drop windows.
http://www.pcb-pool.com/ recommended by my electronic engineer colleague.
PCB-POOL prices are significantly higher than Pad2Pad offers. E.g. two boards 3.9" x 3.0" with solder mask and silk screen would cost $205.82 at PCB-POOL and only $70 at Pad2Pad for the same 7 day lead time.
Schematic, auto-router, advanced footprints and parts libraries are in progress and will be available in one of the future versions.
Additionally, for a non-professional PCB designer Pad2Pad is much easier to use than Target and other CADs.
There's also PCB123.com, which offers more advanced software (auto router, schematic capture, etc.). Haven't done a firm price compare on them yet. Those prices for boards/w solder mask & silk screen look great, but the software has a ways to go.