The New Nvidia 6800 Ultra DDL Graphics Card

That was “interesting” by sebi · 2004-07-21 01:32 · Score: 5, Interesting

Reading that "interview" I can almost see the lawyer going over every answer and neutering it before it went out. Either that or Mr Desai is the most boring and lifeless fellow in the history of electronics.

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Re:That was “interesting” by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 01:52 · Score: 2, Insightful

The interviewer is not any better. I was particularly annoyed at this exchange:

Mr Desai:
* We are the first chip with an onboard video processor

Interviewer's commentary:
(Note: Some previous ATI cards like their AIW models have shipped with the "Rage Theater" video encoder/decoder chip on the card. It was first intro'd in 1998, and revised I'm sure since then. Of course the current generation of GPUs have more advanced features.)

Now, how exactly is that comment relevant? Mr Desai claimed theirs was the first chip with an onboard video processor. Does the interviewer even understand the difference between a video card and its GPU?
Re:That was “interesting” by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 01:54 · Score: 0

you have to remember that in (most) really large companies, the sheer scale of the organisation makes people feel compelled to be depersonal in their social interaction (see www.intel.com for the perfect example). "Hey cool man!" kind of chat isn't going to look good in the eyes of his boss.
Re:That was “interesting” by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 01:54 · Score: 4, Funny

Mr Desai is the most boring and lifeless fellow in the history of electronics.

And that's saying a lot.
Re:That was “interesting” by sebi · 2004-07-21 01:59 · Score: 1

you have to remember that in (most) really large companies, the sheer scale of the organisation makes people feel compelled to be depersonal in their social interaction (see www.intel.com for the perfect example). "Hey cool man!" kind of chat isn't going to look good in the eyes of his boss.

Hence the mention of an imaginary or not lawyer responsible for going over all outbound communication. I know that there are good reasons for the practice, but one side effect is to make interviews lie this completely useless. Why then do companies even bother to "talk" to interested consumers? Pump out some press releases and be done with. The level of actual content can't be any lower.

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Hank! White!
Re:That was “interesting” by Peter+Cooper · 2004-07-21 02:03 · Score: 2, Interesting

Clearly not, as the interviewer asked if nVidia would be introducing any retail cards for the Mac. nVidia doesn't make cards, but GPUs, as Mr. Dull-ai explained.
Re:That was “interesting” by Pius+II. · 2004-07-21 02:52 · Score: 1

"chip with an onboard video processor" implies to me that the chip comes with a video processor on the same board (i.e. on the GC there's the GPU, and then there's the onboard-VP). That would be different to, say, a chip with an on-chip video processor.
Re:That was “interesting” by daviddennis · 2004-07-21 04:19 · Score: 1

Is that really so?

If I were the boss of a marketing guy (or gal), and he was out there showing genuine enthusiasm for the product, I'd be happy as a clam because I know that results in sales.

If you like the guy selling something, you'll buy. That's the foundation of all kinds of sales and it works just the same here.

Although in all fairness, this interview isn't going to prevent me from buying the card and 30" display anyway :-).

D
Re:That was “interesting” by Demolition · 2004-07-21 20:38 · Score: 1

Actually, Mike Breeden (the "interviewer") did not ask if nVidia itself will be introducing retail Mac cards. He is asking for Mr. Desai's opinion on whether graphics card manufacturers have any interest in introducing nVidia retail cards to the Mac market.

In fact, Mr. Breeden foresaw that Mr. Desai would probably answer with the standard "We don't make cards. We make GPUs." answer, so he flatly asked the question, parenthetically. Read the actual quoted passage again:
* This is an old question, but do you think there will ever be a retail Mac NVIDIA card? (i.e. Is the Apple contract an exclusive on the ROM code, etc. - or is there just no interest in PC graphics card mfrs to do a Mac product?)

D.

Man that card is HUGE! by Gentoo+Fan · 2004-07-21 01:35 · Score: 4, Funny

Also, I liked this:

* Do you have any idea how performance compares on the Mac between the GeForce 6800 Ultra and the ATI 9800 Pro/XT card?

GeForce 6800 Ultra represents the largest leap forward in graphics performance in our company's history. As expected, they are much faster than previous generation products from ATI. We will let the benchmarks speak for themselves.

Translated: We'll release some actual numbers when we sell more of these mini-space heaters.

Re:Man that card is HUGE! by Arminator · 2004-07-21 02:18 · Score: 1

Better yet:
"As expected, they are much faster than previous generation products from ATI. We will let the benchmarks speak for themselves."

I'd translate it like this:
Our new card can beat any of those old (previous) ATI cards. (But the new ATI Cards have the potential to open up a can of whoopass on this one, so we'll rely on benchmark-optimized results)
Re:Man that card is HUGE! by timts · 2004-07-21 02:51 · Score: 0

so this is the only option for FX6800 on mac machine and it's at least $100 more expensive than the PC version?
isnt mac started as a PC?

Re:First ever first post by Audigy · 2004-07-21 01:35 · Score: 0

I felt the same just now... until I learned of the limit between clicking "reply" and "submit" ;)

Oh well... leave the idiotic first postings to the NGAA or whatever they call themselves. Insightful/Informative/Interesting first posts are much more... valuable.

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[an error occured while processing this directive]

It's costs... by _PimpDaddy7_ · 2004-07-21 01:35 · Score: 4, Funny

more than some PCs. Amazing!

From the site:
"The combination of a GeForce 6800 Ultra with a dual processor Power Mac G5 driving two 30-inch Apple Cinema HD Displays is the definitive tool for the creative professional."

Yes because I need 2 30" screens to watch Carrie Ann Moss on one screen and Natalie Portman on the other :)

Re:It's costs... by EMN13 · 2004-07-21 01:41 · Score: 1, Funny

Ooh and then you be like... ...all creative!

Or something...
Re:It's costs... by Quobobo · 2004-07-21 02:09 · Score: 4, Informative

Argh. No, it's not. There's 2 (two) dual-link DVI ports, each of which can drive 1 (one) 30 inch monitor. Take a look at the pictures from WWDC where they had a G5 driving two of those monitors.
Re:It's costs... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 02:37 · Score: 0

Thanks for proving once again that browsing at +5 flamebait is the way to go.

Set up by OECD · 2004-07-21 01:36 · Score: 1

Are these Cinema Displays essentially a dual-monitor-in-one setup (from the computer's POV, that is.)

(YFI, BTW)

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Re:Set up by angrist · 2004-07-21 01:42 · Score: 3, Informative

Nope, they should each show up as a single monitor.
The "dual-link" label is misleading, it's mearly an update to the DVI standard (like DVI-I, DVI-A, etc) too allow for more data.
Re:Set up by lordDallan · 2004-07-21 01:59 · Score: 1, Informative

Actually - The issue is that there is too much data to drive the screen over one cable connection/channel (don't know the right technical term) - so there are two DVI connectors for each screen (four on the card).

Only the 30 inch display requires the two connections per screen - so this card is really only for the 30 inch.

IANAE - so I have no idea if the card could ever be hacked to drive four displays - but that would be pretty cool.
Re:Set up by angrist · 2004-07-21 02:08 · Score: 2, Informative

You're wrong and you're right.

Yes, the issue is data throughput. DVI-D doesn't support high enough resolution.

But, the 30 inch display only needs ONE connector.
DVI-Dual Link is just a protocal/standard that allows that one connector to send twice the data of DVI-D. Think double density.

So... one card, two DVI-Dual Link Connectors, one display (including 30 inch) per connector.
Re:Set up by afidel · 2004-07-21 02:16 · Score: 2, Interesting

No, there are the same number of cables(2), it's just that more of the pins are actually used for digital data. You might run into a problem if a cheap cable was made assuming single link DVI but any cable which follows the spec should work fine. The interesting part is that there is no KVM capable of switching dual channel DVI AFAIK.

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Re:Set up by addaon · 2004-07-21 03:13 · Score: 1

Out of curiousity, where did everyone get this idea? Is it just because of how SJ phrased the description during the keynote?

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Re:Set up by lordDallan · 2004-07-21 04:34 · Score: 1

That's where I got the idea - thanks to angrist for the clarification.

you can't replace me by nighty5 · 2004-07-21 01:37 · Score: 4, Funny

It won't replace my S3 - 1 meg

Never..

Never......

Never !!!!

Re:you can't replace me by rodac · 2004-07-21 01:48 · Score: 1

You also have an S3, i love that chip.

Do you have, as I have, it on a VesaLocal bus card, (high end) , or are you using a low-end ISA card?
Re:you can't replace me by skinfitz · 2004-07-21 01:50 · Score: 4, Funny

I was going to write a long reply but then you wouldn't be able to read it all as it wouldn't fit on your screen.
Re:you can't replace me by FinestLittleSpace · 2004-07-21 01:54 · Score: 1

I seriosuly have a 4 meg S3 in my 2000+ athlon box right now. I feel so dirty.
Re:you can't replace me by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 02:01 · Score: 0

I was going to write a long reply but then you wouldn't be able to read it all as it wouldn't fit on your screen.
Upgrade to a Matrox Millennium I tell you ;-)
Re:you can't replace me by AKAImBatman · 2004-07-21 02:18 · Score: 1

Hey, those things were actually great little 2D cards (and cheap too!). The reason why they fell out of favor was that their 3D support (in the form of the S3 Virge) was downright broken. I remember playing a "Virge Enhanced" version of Tomb Raider. None of the wall seams would line up, polygon "ghosts" kept appearing, and the overall game performance was indistinguishable from the software version. The end result was that *software rendering* made a better showing than the S3 Virge.

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Re:you can't replace me by Eric_Cartman_South_P · 2004-07-21 02:33 · Score: 1

YOU INSENSITIVE CLOD! HIS S3 CARD DOESN'T SUPPORT "SCREENS"!
Re:you can't replace me by sv0f · 2004-07-21 02:45 · Score: 1

I was going to write a long reply but then you wouldn't be able to read it all as it wouldn't fit on your screen.

Don't worry, Andrew Wiles is working on a fix. Should be available in about ten years.
Re:you can't replace me by vasqzr · 2004-07-21 02:59 · Score: 1

their 3D support (in the form of the S3 Virge) was downright broken. I remember playing a "Virge Enhanced" version of Tomb Raider. None of the wall seams would line up, polygon "ghosts" kept appearing

Are you sure you weren't playing the Playstation version?
Re:you can't replace me by AKAImBatman · 2004-07-21 03:53 · Score: 1

Choose your answer:

1. What's a Playstation?
2. I never owned a Playstation, you insensitive clod!
3. Playstations used S3 Virge chips?

=D

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Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Re:you can't replace me by joshamania · 2004-07-21 04:12 · Score: 1

And I thought my 4 year old 32 meg GeForce in my Athlon 1600+ was bad...
Re:you can't replace me by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 07:43 · Score: 0

See the joke is, Tomb Raider had tons of graphical errors, jumping polygons, sparkling, glitching pixels, holes in the walls, other visual artifacts. Due to the implementation of the graphics system on the Playstation.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Tomb+Raider+Pl ay station+polygons&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&selm= 63pits%24vos%241%40zen.hursley.ibm.com&rnum=6
Re:you can't replace me by AKAImBatman · 2004-07-21 07:55 · Score: 1

I caught the joke. My response was a joke in of itself. Thus the '=D' super smily. :-)

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Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Re:you can't replace me by Moofie · 2004-07-21 10:16 · Score: 1

i just threw up a little bit in my mouth.

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Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Re:you can't replace me by forkazoo · 2004-07-22 08:54 · Score: 1

Bah, I used my 1 MB Mach 64 card to run at greater than 1024x768. IIRC, I made it up to 1152x864. 8 bit color (if that), 43 hertz. Plenty of room to read a fair amount of text.

Wow, what useless responses... by Goronmon · 2004-07-21 01:39 · Score: 2, Interesting

As expected, they are much faster than previous generation products from ATI

Thats basically like saying "Hey, this new souped Mustang is much faster than a 1992 Taurus!"

I mean, it better be whole hell of a lot faster than the old cards for the huge premium you are paying right now.

Re:Wow, what useless responses... by Achoi77 · 2004-07-21 01:54 · Score: 3, Insightful

Well, there was one question that he did give a precise answer to:
* Does the GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL have a low-noise fan?
Yes, the GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL runs very quiet.
I think this was the only question he was capable of answering.
Re:Wow, what useless responses... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 02:59 · Score: 0

>Yes, the GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL runs very quiet.

>I think this was the only question he was capable of answering.

Only because while he was saying 'very quiet' he was thinking 'compared to my Porche going 200Km/h on gravel'. You see, that makes it not a lie.
Re:Wow, what useless responses... by StrawberryFrog · 2004-07-21 04:10 · Score: 1

I think this was the only question he was capable of answering.

But he didn't answer it. How many decibels is "very quiet" ?

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StrawberryFrog
Re:Wow, what useless responses... by Moofie · 2004-07-21 10:30 · Score: 1

Slightly quieter than a Pratt & Whitney F119 with afterburners engaged.

OK, it's probably a lot quieter than that. maybe.

--
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!

Cram that thing into an iMac?! by angrist · 2004-07-21 01:39 · Score: 1

All I know is that the 6800 won't in in my iMac, or (soon to arrive) PowerBook ..... Damn you nVidia!

Slightly off topic, has anyone seen a way to upgrade (even if it includes needed a new case) the video card on an iMac? (lamp type)

Re:Cram that thing into an iMac?! by Semantic+Anomaly · 2004-07-21 02:07 · Score: 1

Slightly off topic, has anyone seen a way to upgrade (even if it includes needed a new case) the video card on an iMac? (lamp type)
Yeah. Buy a new mac.
Re:Cram that thing into an iMac?! by Sique · 2004-07-21 02:21 · Score: 1

That's the cheap way.

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.sig: Sique *sigh*

Article Text: Im AC 'cause i dont want the karma by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 01:39 · Score: 3, Informative

Q & A with Nvidia on the Mac
Nvidia 6800 Ultra DDL Graphics card
Posted: 7/20/2004

Shortly after Apple announced the Mac Nvidia 6800 Ultra DDL card for the PowerMac G5s (which is required to drive the 30in Cinema Display), I sent a series of questions to a contact at Nvidia on the card. Yesterday I received the reply from Ujesh Desai, Nvidia's General Manager of Desktop GPUs. Although some questions didn't get as complete an answer as I hoped (often due to the fact Apple controls OEM Mac Nvidia products), I appreciate his taking the time to reply.

* How does the NVIDIA GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL card for the Mac differ from the PC version (i.e. Does the PC version have dual link DVI?)

The GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL card was designed specifically for the Mac to provide two dual-link outputs to support Apple's displays.

* Does the Apple version of the GeForce 6800 Ultra GPU run at the same core/memory clock as the PC version?

The Apple cards run at 400/550, just like the GeForce 6800 Ultra GPU on the PC.
(Note: Some vendor's 6800 cards are clocked higher than the standard/reference design.)

* The GeForce 6800 Ultra for the PC has two Molex power connectors - does the Mac version source all the power from the G5's AGP pro slot? (or does it have a aux power connector?)

There is an on-board power connector on the graphics card and the motherboard to provide power, so there is no need for an external power connector from the power supply.
(although the only Mac 6800 photos I've seen are tiny, it appears there's a stub connector on the card that (I suspect) uses the ADC (28V or 24V usually) DC power connector on the motherboard that's normally used for ADC display power to provide additional power (regulated down) for the 6800 card. That eliminates the need for Aux. (Molex) P.S. connector(s) like the PC/standard 6800 card versions have.)

* Does the GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL have a low-noise fan?

Yes, the GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL runs very quiet.

* Will there ever be a control panel with 3D/GL/FSAA controls for the NVIDIA cards on the Mac platform? (ATI's retail Radeon cards (and OEM models with the 3rd party patch) have a '3D/GL overrides' feature - which is seen as a big plus by many end users.)

Apple provides all the drivers for NVIDIA-based add-in cards. We supply them with the source code and they provide the final driver.

* Regarding the previous question - if there's no chance of an Apple supplied NVIDIA card control panel (for advanced features/FSAA, etc.) - if a 3rd party wanted to do this, can NVIDIA provide some assistance?

Apple is our customer, so if this is something that they requested, then we would support it.

* There's been talk of previous NVIDIA cards taking a bigger than expected performance hit from using some types of shaders (on the Mac) - is this a concern with the GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL?

GeForce 6 Series GPUs have the most advanced shading engines on the market. Compared to previous generation parts, the vertex and pixel shader engines on GeForce 6 Series GPUs have been completely redesigned from the ground-up. Pixel Shader performance is 4 to 8 times faster. Vertex shader performance is twice as fast. Performance numbers have been outstanding.

* Will there updated/new drivers for the GeForce 6800 Ultra?

Yes. Apple provides all the drivers for NVIDIA-based add-in cards. We supply them with the source code and they provide the final driver. Apple will control the release schedules for drivers that provide even more performance, features and image quality enhancements.

* Do you have any idea how performance compares on the Mac between the GeForce 6800 Ultra and the ATI 9800 Pro/XT card?

GeForce 6800 Ultra represents the largest leap forward in graphics performance in our company's history. As expected, they are much faster than previous generation products from ATI. We will let the benchmarks speak for themselves.

(Note: There's no Mac 6800 perf

ATI's Response? by TheShadowHawk · 2004-07-21 01:44 · Score: 0

Does ATI have anything in the pipeline to combat this new card from nVidia?

I'd google it, but it's too late and I'm too lazy to bother..

--
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Re:ATI's Response? by rozz · 2004-07-21 02:05 · Score: 1

I'd google it, but it's too late and I'm too lazy to bother..
me too.
(just in case you were counting on me)

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"There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Re:ATI's Response? by Jarnis · 2004-07-21 04:06 · Score: 0

Dunno bout mac-specific versions, but X800 XT platinum already owns this overpriced nvidia hardware in most cases.

6800 has one feature that the X800 does not have (PS3.0 support), which is mostly useless for quite a while - probably way past the useful life of 6800 as a high end card.
Re:ATI's Response? by Tolleman · 2004-07-21 05:04 · Score: 1

Concidering that Ati generaly sucks at OpenGL and since thats the 3D toolkit they use in Mac OS X NVIDIA should be alot better no?

A dream... by EMN13 · 2004-07-21 01:44 · Score: 0

Not that it's in any livable price-range; but two 30" displays connected to a card like that running MacOS-X, can you image that?
The beauty, the beauty... ;-)

Re:A dream... by afidel · 2004-07-21 02:11 · Score: 1

probably still comes in at less than a comparable Sun or SGI workstation without a display =)

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Re:A dream... by daviddennis · 2004-07-21 04:45 · Score: 1

It's $10,047.00 at the Apple store to get a dual 2.5ghz G5 + the card + two 30" displays.

That's not so bad. I remember when a Macintosh II or one of the early PowerBooks cost about that much.

I plan to buy one 30" display and run with that and my existing 23" display (assuming it can be done, but I think it can). I can always upgrade later to the dual setup, but to be honest I'm sure it will be awesome no matter what.

D
Re:A dream... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 05:06 · Score: 0

Just to be aware, it takes BOTH dvi outputs of the 6800 ultra to drive the SINGLE 30" monitor. So if you want to drive *two* 30" displays you'll need *two* of the 6800 Ultra cards. Ye gads!
Re:A dream... by dgatwood · 2004-07-21 06:04 · Score: 1

Bzzt. It takes one dual-link output to drive the 30" monitor.
There's only one AGP slot in PowerMacs, thus if it took both of the card's DVI ports, it would be impossible to have two 30" monitors hooked up to a single G5.. At WWDC, Apple demoed dual 30" configurations on a stock G5 tower. Thus, by contradiction, we conclude that you're wrong. QED.

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Re:A dream... by Hes+Nikke · 2004-07-21 07:12 · Score: 1

DDL = 2 DVI signals on a single port. this card has 2 of these ports. so in theory, it could drive *four* 23 inch displays from it's "2" DVI ports :D

i was personally expecting to see 4 DVI ports on one of theses cards, as they do take up one of the PCI slots as well. i was somewhat disappointed when i took a peek behind and saw it set up with the normal apple elegance when they could have taken the easy rout i was expecting.

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Re:A dream... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 07:12 · Score: 0

"PCI-X" not AGP.
Re:A dream... by replicate · 2004-07-21 10:38 · Score: 1

You mean PCI-E, and it doesn't. The Power Mac G5 has an AGP 8x slot and depending on the model, three PCI or PCI-X slots. PCI-X is an extention to PCI, like EISA or VLB were extentions to the orignal 8-bit ISA standard. PCI Express (PCI-E) is a completely different standard and has virtually nothing to do with PCI, least of all pin compatibility.
Re:A dream... by unclethursday · 2004-07-21 12:13 · Score: 1

Actually, when Jobs and Apple displayed/demoed the new monitors, they spoke of 2 of them hooked up through the same card.
It has 2 dual DVI ports on it to allow for such a feat.
Mmmmmm, two 30" montiors at 4.1 million pixels each. More screen rela estate than any one person should be allowed.

Worthless read by Achoi77 · 2004-07-21 01:46 · Score: 3, Insightful

Heh. After reading that interview I get the feeling that this guy doesn't know anything about the product he is selling. Generic one-liner answers that dance around the questions with emphasis on market speak. Here's an excerpt:

GeForce 6 Series GPUs have the most advanced shading engines on the market. Compared to previous generation parts, the vertex and pixel shader engines on GeForce 6 Series GPUs have been completely redesigned from the ground-up. Pixel Shader performance is 4 to 8 times faster. Vertex shader performance is twice as fast. Performance numbers have been outstanding.

Absolut (tm) Garbage!! Here's another, this time with the question:

* Do you have any idea how performance compares on the Mac between the GeForce 6800 Ultra and the ATI 9800 Pro/XT card?

GeForce 6800 Ultra represents the largest leap forward in graphics performance in our company's history. As expected, they are much faster than previous generation products from ATI. We will let the benchmarks speak for themselves.

Talk about trash!! A simple NO would have sufficed. Looks like he's made the most of his Business-for-dummies Manual. Man, why am I so angry over this?

Re:Worthless read by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 02:20 · Score: 0

After reading TFA... I totally agree.

Also observe how in your second example there's no mention of ATI Radeon X800 Pro/XT in the question! Sheesh...
Re:Worthless read by Hungus · 2004-07-21 02:30 · Score: 1

Man, why am I so angry over this?
Umm... because its still early and you have not yet had enough caffine?

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Re:Worthless read by foidulus · 2004-07-21 02:35 · Score: 2, Insightful

Talk about trash!! A simple NO would have sufficed. Looks like he's made the most of his Business-for-dummies Manual. Man, why am I so angry over this?
Probably because he gets paid much more for spouting bs than any of us do for real work....
Re:Worthless read by wisdom_brewing · 2004-07-21 02:52 · Score: 1

easily explainable... you see an infinite increase in performance... without the card you get no display on the 30" display... with it you get an image... that a HUGE leap... all youve gotta do is make technology which isnt backwards compatible (well done apple)

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Re:Worthless read by Exitthree · 2004-07-21 04:12 · Score: 4, Insightful

While Apple does tend to make products that are often incompatible with older products, there is no way to make the 30" display compatible with older hardware since it requires a new port which isn't available on older products. And don't say, "Well, Apple should have stuck with the old port," because vanilla DVI doesn't support the resolution of the 30" display.
Re:Worthless read by SlamMan · 2004-07-21 04:13 · Score: 1

Hey man, spouting BS like that is harder work than you'd think.

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Mod point free since 2001
Re:Worthless read by wisdom_brewing · 2004-07-21 04:17 · Score: 0, Troll

then stick to standard vga cables... those go to high enough resolutions... have the monitor with both inputts... itll know the price up, what? all of 0.1%?

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I am very sucseptible to "let's have another drink"
Re:Worthless read by Exitthree · 2004-07-21 04:24 · Score: 3, Insightful

VGA connections are prone to distortion. There is a reason the industry is switching to DVI (and subsequently DVI Dual Link). You are the first person I have ever heard suggesting that VGA would be preferred over DVI.
Re:Worthless read by ed1park · 2004-07-21 04:25 · Score: 1

You're angry because you have difficulty reading english. Go calm down. He says it's much faster.
Re:Worthless read by CatOne · 2004-07-21 04:43 · Score: 1

What do you mean "not backwards compatible?"

DVI doesn't support the Apple resolution.

And VGA? Feh. Nobody's going to want the distortion/poor quality of VGA on a $3300 monitor.
Re:Worthless read by dotlively · 2004-07-21 05:20 · Score: 1

You're angry because you have difficulty reading english. Go calm down. He says it's much faster.
Actually, if you re-read it a little closer, you'll notice that he doesn't actually say that the card is faster. He says it's much faster than previous generation products from ATI. He doesn't mention anything about current products from ATI, only that it is faster than prior products from both nVidia and ATI.
GeForce 6800 Ultra represents the largest leap forward in graphics performance in our company's history. As expected, they are much faster than previous generation products from ATI. We will let the benchmarks speak for themselves.
Re:Worthless read by Moofie · 2004-07-21 10:14 · Score: 1

You're a loony.

All digital data path GOOD. VGA BAD.

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Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Re:Worthless read by freakmn · 2004-07-21 14:28 · Score: 1

Unless you happen to be a bull... (Think about it)

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Re:Worthless read by wisdom_brewing · 2004-07-21 21:00 · Score: 1

im not saying it should be prefered to DVI, im saying that they should make the monitor compatible with it, hardwarewise it would be very cheap, and it would make the monitor available to non mac users and mac users who cant be bothered to shell out the extra $$$s for the graphics card when they already have the non Dual Link card...

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I am very sucseptible to "let's have another drink"
Re:Worthless read by Lars+T. · 2004-07-22 00:38 · Score: 1

And then those people would complain about the crap picture and how it's obviously Apple's fault.

--
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
Re:Worthless read by wisdom_brewing · 2004-07-22 03:53 · Score: 1

it wouldnt be a crap picture... you dont get that much distortion with a vga cable, im sure that if you give the standard user (someone who doesnt work with graphics) a box with dvi one day and a box with vga the next most wouldnt notice... ok, the signal wont be quite as crisp but i doubt most people would notice (granted, that if youre spending that much on a display you probably would but...)

i personally work on a LaCie Electron22Blue, i value a good display, my point is most people wouldnt notice the difference

--
I am very sucseptible to "let's have another drink"

Interview in a nutshell by hcdejong · 2004-07-21 01:47 · Score: 4, Funny

For n=1 to 12 Q: Blah[n] A: 42! Next n

Re:Interview in a nutshell by hcdejong · 2004-07-21 01:50 · Score: 1

Damn /. requiring you to mamnually add BR tags...
Re:Interview in a nutshell by CatOne · 2004-07-21 04:47 · Score: 1

Post as "Plain Old Text" rather than HTML, then. No breaks needed ;-)

argh by destinedforgreatness · 2004-07-21 01:47 · Score: 0

I still have a Cirrus Logic 1mb you insensitive clods!

Article Summary: by Erwos · 2004-07-21 01:48 · Score: 4, Funny

The 6800 DDL is just a 6800 that supports the new ADC. Apple releases the drivers, don't bitch at us if you don't like the drivers. No, we're not going to tell you about our contract with Apple. The X800 sucks.

Much faster to read, no PR speak to deal with.

-Erwos

--
Plausible conjecture should not be misrepresented as proof positive.

Re:Article Summary: by tonywong · 2004-07-21 02:38 · Score: 1

I don't mean to be a pendant, but

ADC == Apple Display Connector

ACD == Apple Cinema Display

The new 6800 supports the latter, not the former (Dual DVI is the connection standard for the newest Apple systems).
Re:Article Summary: by Geiger581 · 2004-07-21 03:00 · Score: 2, Funny

I hope that you meant you didn't mean to be a pedant, but maybe your humor escapes me. ;)
Re:Article Summary: by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 03:33 · Score: 0

I think because you are a peasant, humor keeps on escaping you ;)

usually good, but ... by for_usenet · 2004-07-21 01:50 · Score: 4, Insightful

I'm a heavy mac user, and I read this site pretty much on a daily basis, as the guy responsible for the site puts up a LOT of decent Mac hardware and software info on there. But this has got to be one of the most UNinformative, useless things he's posted. I know there's a desire for info about this card - but shouldn't we wait till some more detailed specs are released, or till someone has some actual silicon so benchmarks can be run ?

Yet another example of "no news" being news ... As many other people have said, "Nothing to see here. Move along !!"

Re:usually good, but ... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 04:55 · Score: 0

Perhaps you should try watching what you eat, and maybe exercising. Being heavy can have adverse effects on your health.

Promises promises by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 01:50 · Score: 1, Informative

We always give significant performance increases after we have leveled out the stability of the new architecture. GeForce 6 should continue that trend.

They made the same promises regarding the NV30/NV35 series and the shader performance NEVER approached the shader performance of the R300 series. Even Carmack was talking potential scheduling efficiencies during the NV30 launch that never materialized.

ATI may have similar problems as R500+ are going to the pool of ALUs approach where software scheduling becomes paramount to delivering on the performance of the hardware.

Pretty sparse... by dalamarian · 2004-07-21 01:51 · Score: 1

I was really interested in this article till about the 2nd question. The responses are extremely limited and seem right out of standardized corporate response. But good job for trying to get some more facts!

Re:First ever first post by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 01:51 · Score: 0

"Oh well... leave the idiotic first postings to the NGAA or whatever they call themselves. Insightful/Informative/Interesting first posts are much more... valuable."

That's the GNAA! Get it right, you opressor!

Dual-Link DVI for PC? by Renesis · 2004-07-21 01:54 · Score: 1

Does anyone have any links for Dual-Link DVI cards for the PC?

I believe there are a couple of them out there, but I wanna run one of these 30" Cinema displays on a PC you see!

Re:Dual-Link DVI for PC? by whitelines · 2004-07-21 02:04 · Score: 1

There are quite a few Dual Link DVI's out there, but I don't know of any that can drive 2560 by 1600 through BOTH ports. The ones I have seen can only drive that kind of resolution ACROSS the ports...

--
/* TBD */
Re:Dual-Link DVI for PC? by badriram · 2004-07-21 02:09 · Score: 2, Informative

I would look into the Matrox Parhelia series of cards. They are designed for high end use in DV, CAD GIS etc.
Re:Dual-Link DVI for PC? by fordan · 2004-07-21 02:22 · Score: 1

Errr, isn't Dual Link DVI only one port? It just uses all the pins in the connector. http://www.ddwg.org/dvi.html

The 6800 for the Mac actually has 2 Dual Link DVI ports, or "Dual Dual Link DVI."
Re:Dual-Link DVI for PC? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 02:59 · Score: 0

Especially the Parhelia HR256 models. Max rez 3840 x 2400 :)

Okay, the price may be steepish... And it'll be dog slow -- certainly 2D only in practice.

Tom's Hardware by pajamacore · 2004-07-21 02:00 · Score: 4, Informative

There was actually a really great, informative article about the 6800 on Tom's Hardware a few weeks ago.

"NVIDIA has seemingly pulled out all stops in an attempt to deliver cutting edge graphics with its GeForce 6800 Ultra. After gamers for too long have had to be content with mere incremental improvements to graphics performance, NVIDIA new card delivers a performance jump not seen for a long time. The device is also solidly engineered as well as insanely fast."

Re:Tom's Hardware by hcdejong · 2004-07-21 02:10 · Score: 1

Unfortunately, that article doesn't talk about the DDL version.
Re:Tom's Hardware by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 06:37 · Score: 0

you're kidding me! There were articles on the web about the new graphics cards?

Wait... not a Motorola 6800... an NVidia 6800.... by DeckerEgo · 2004-07-21 02:02 · Score: 3, Funny

My brain kept thinking that they were talking about the old Motorola 6800 chipsets that Apple used nine years ago... not a GPU marketed as "6800"... I got so confused...

Wait - I sold those things nine years ago!?!? Damn I'm old.

Flamebait... by Anita+Coney · 2004-07-21 02:02 · Score: 2, Funny

Can someone explain to me why a Mac would need such a powerful gaming card?!

--
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.

Re:Flamebait... by Semantic+Anomaly · 2004-07-21 02:13 · Score: 1

Can someone explain to me why a Mac would need such a powerful gaming card?!
To play the apple jigsaw puzzle game, of course.
Re:Flamebait... by Have+Blue · 2004-07-21 02:28 · Score: 2, Informative

I don't know why I'm replying to this but...

It's not just for gaming. Mac OS X's GUI can be accelerated by the GPU. 10.4 will also ship with video- and image-processing libraries that use the GPU.

And even if you don't care about gaming at all, this is the only card on any platform that supports the 30" cinema display, so if you want one of those you need the card anyway.
Re:Flamebait... by javax · 2004-07-21 02:28 · Score: 2, Informative

I've got two words for you: Core Image
Re:Flamebait... by moofus · 2004-07-21 02:45 · Score: 2, Informative

2 words: WoW
Re:Flamebait... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 03:08 · Score: 0

You haven't seen anything until you've seen Marathon at 2560x1600.
Re:Flamebait... by Erik+K.+Veland · 2004-07-21 03:43 · Score: 1

(uuhmmmm.... Photoshop)

--
"I tend to think of OS X as Linux with QA and Taste", James Gosling, creator of Java
Re:Flamebait... by Anita+Coney · 2004-07-21 04:17 · Score: 0, Flamebait

Thank you very much for your reply. As someone who played around with OSX a little bit I should have guessed that. I'm still not convinced that OSX needs that much power to run well, but it's still valid reason.

--
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
Re:Flamebait... by daviddennis · 2004-07-21 04:35 · Score: 1

It probably doesn't, now. I had a PowerBook G4/400mhz when it was introduced a couple of years back and it it was a tad slow with MacOS X of the day. Menus would sometimes "stick". The extra GPU power was originally introduced to make it work.

By a quirk of fate, I bought a used PowerBook G4/400 about a month ago and it's actually pretty zippy running Panther. So it looks like they've optimized their OS to the point where it will live happily on slower hardware, which definitely wasn't true a few years back.

D
Re:Flamebait... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 04:46 · Score: 0

man, why don't you just don't answer anything you don't know anything about... for crap sake!
you guys make me pissed off, this whole website is full of piss and crap... not a single descent answer
and it's not because i like apple, it's on every damn subject...screw it
Re:Flamebait... by Mr.+Arbusto · 2004-07-21 05:02 · Score: 1

The libraries that the next OS X (Tiger is shipping) can be use the GPU for ANY graphical effects. Since the GPU kicks any other Floating Point processor in exsistance, it means anything, not just the GUI can be faster (Photoshop). It can, in real time, apply video filters to High Def DV streams, using the Video cards GPU, which is pretty cool.

Also, the new 30" have a resolution of 2560 x 1600 with is only about 4 million pixels. There is really no video card (Or connection interface for that matter) that can run that many pixels. Which is why they need a decked out video card which actually has dual connections for the 30" Display, so there is enough bandwidth to use it.
Re:Flamebait... by 47Ronin · 2004-07-21 05:33 · Score: 2, Informative

Can someone explain to me why a Mac would need such a powerful gaming card?!

So mac users can happily play games like Command & Conquer: Generals, Doom 3, Shrek 2, Battlefield 1942, Delta Force: Black Hawk Down, Space Colony, Unreal Tournament 2004, Warcraft 3, Call of Duty, etc etc...

--
Those who laugh at you for you having a Mac.. are the people who constantly call you to fix their PC.
Re:Flamebait... by Carnildo · 2004-07-21 08:56 · Score: 2, Interesting

And even if you don't care about gaming at all, this is the only card on any platform that supports the 30" cinema display, so if you want one of those you need the card anyway.

The new 3DLabs Realizm cards have a DDL connector. I wonder if that means they can support the display.

--
"They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.

Re:Who want a MAC ? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 02:05 · Score: 0

What? Big ugly icons?

Mac user's number 1 hardware question by gsfprez · 2004-07-21 02:07 · Score: 3, Interesting

why can't we buy and use "PC" Video cards? What is it that makes vendors have to build EPROMs differently (Different?) for the Mac vs. Windows machines for the exact same card otherwise?

It reduces our choices and makes $100 cost $400.

--
guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.

Re:Mac user's number 1 hardware question by Synesthesiatic · 2004-07-21 02:17 · Score: 4, Informative

A Mac-specific ROM is required for full Open Firmware support. Apparently a card will work without an OF ROM but won't be plug and play. That's pretty important for a Macintosh.
Since Sun uses OF as well, I wonder if the same card could be used for Macs and Sun workstations.
Re:Mac user's number 1 hardware question by mfago · 2004-07-21 02:18 · Score: 2, Informative

why can't we buy and use "PC" Video cards? What is it that makes vendors have to build EPROMs differently (Different?) for the Mac vs. Windows machines for the exact same card otherwise?

Because x86 stores data backwards (the big/little endian thing) as compared to almost every other processor, including the PowerPC.

Thus the card firmware needs to be different...
Re:Mac user's number 1 hardware question by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 02:21 · Score: 0

Because PCs don't use platform independent FCode drivers like the rest of the world, they store their ROMs on the card in intel assembly. Thus PCI cards for x86 systems don't work on anything else without new ROMs.
Re:Mac user's number 1 hardware question by Quobobo · 2004-07-21 02:21 · Score: 2, Interesting

Yeah, but Mac users are gouged on the prices, for just a different firmware (hence the many guides to flashing "PC" video cards for use in Macs). It makes no sense to charge so much more for simply having some different data on the card.
Re:Mac user's number 1 hardware question by wisdom_brewing · 2004-07-21 02:49 · Score: 1

oh come on, be fair... theyre mac users, they deserve to be charged more

--
I am very sucseptible to "let's have another drink"
Re:Mac user's number 1 hardware question by EulerX07 · 2004-07-21 02:53 · Score: 1

When you say the rest of the world, you're referring to the 3-5% of the market that aren't PCs?

Nice attemp to distort reality.
Re:Mac user's number 1 hardware question by drinkypoo · 2004-07-21 02:56 · Score: 1

I don't see why they wouldn't, the PPC is either-endian, and ultrasparc is big-endian, so the code should be compatible if the default (IE, what adapter manufacturers will use) endian-ness for ppc is big. Otherwise, probably not.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:Mac user's number 1 hardware question by addaon · 2004-07-21 03:06 · Score: 3, Informative

PCI and AGP are both specified to be little endian regardless of platform.

--

I've had this sig for three days.
Re:Mac user's number 1 hardware question by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 03:13 · Score: 0

The Nvidia Geforce 2 and Geforce 3 PC cards can be used in Macs by just flashing a different NVRAM image. I suppose that doesn't help much any longer, since these cards are both pretty old, but it's an example that shows that a PC card can be used in the Mac. The bigger problem has been the use of the ADC connector, which does require different hardware. Apple has apparently decided to drop the ADC connectors on future video cards, so hopefully there will be more Mac video cards released.
Re:Mac user's number 1 hardware question by aristotle-dude · 2004-07-21 03:22 · Score: 1

Sorry but you are forgetting other Unix workstations running on non-X86 hardware. I doubt those units are included in the "PC" marketshare numbers since they are not intended for the general markets.

--
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
Re:Mac user's number 1 hardware question by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 03:44 · Score: 1, Informative

You could with voodoo(3/4/5?) card for example, put a PC version in a PC, boot, flash the EPROM with a MAC version, shut down the PC, remove the voodoo card, put it in a MAC, and it works. It was the same for GeForce2 and 3. Just wait for someone that release MAC ROM version and flash it on your PC in dos/windows.
Re:Mac user's number 1 hardware question by daviddennis · 2004-07-21 04:29 · Score: 1

I'm a Mac user myself.

That being said, it makes sense that you would charge more for different firmware because it has to be split among fewer buyers for the cards. Remember, someone still has to develop the firmware, and that person needs to be paid just like you and me.

I don't mind paying a few extra bucks for Apple-compatible stuff because I appreciate the extra effort that goes into supporting it.

More to the point, I normally would have no need to replace my video card anyway, except I really, really, really want the 30" Cinema Display :-).

Anyone know if the dual DVI can drive a 30" Cinema Display and a 23"? I already have a 23" and would hate to not be able to use it as a second monitor. I know that unfortunately i need the DVI to ADC adapter.

D
Re:Mac user's number 1 hardware question by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 05:25 · Score: 1, Interesting

What distortion? Yes, there are a whole lot of PCs, and none of them use FCode as they should, and as every other platform interested in cross platform PCI compatibility does.

Did it occur to you that the fact that the x86 platform has such a huge marketshare is the reason why they don't support the standards? They can drive up the cost of everyone else's peripherals just by using an incompatible ROM.
Re:Mac user's number 1 hardware question by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 05:54 · Score: 0

Since Sun uses OF as well, I wonder if the same card could be used for Macs and Sun workstations.

That Sun workstation would have to have AGP, of which there are no such workstations that do.
Re:Mac user's number 1 hardware question by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 06:21 · Score: 0

Yes. The new card has two ports on the back. With an adapter you can drive your existing monitor.
Re:Mac user's number 1 hardware question by netwiz · 2004-07-21 07:01 · Score: 1

I don't see why they wouldn't, the PPC is either-endian,

Not anymore. IBM removed one of the particularly useful instructions for endian-agnosticity from the PPC970 (G5). It's why VPC7 has been so delayed, MS has to figure a workaround.
Re:Mac user's number 1 hardware question by i+wanted+another+nam · 2004-07-21 07:09 · Score: 1

You also have to remember cell phones, set-top boxes (digital cable, DVD players, PVR, satellite decoders, etc.), Palmtops, servers, mainframes, and a whole huge list of things I can't think of at the moment.

My parents, who are technologically challenged, own one PC, 2 cell phones (by nokia, who TMK use ARM chips), 2 satellite receivers with Motorola PPC hardware, and a DVD player that may or may not be PPC.

If you skewed the statistics in favor of the PC, I'd imagine that the PC accounts for 25% of the processor market. Suddenly, 95% of the PC market looks pretty puny.

--
The image is a dream, the beauty is real. Can you see the difference?
Re:Mac user's number 1 hardware question by EulerX07 · 2004-07-21 07:31 · Score: 1

So, your cell phones and dvd players have PCI slots? The original poster made a stab at the pc industry implying that they used non-compatible hardware for expansion cards. You think it makes sense to *exclude* electronic devices that don't have any PCI slots in the argument? Thought so. Mainframes and servers, yes. Consumer electronics no, you're off-base.

Suddenly, your point looks pretty puny.
Re:Mac user's number 1 hardware question by istewart · 2004-07-21 11:38 · Score: 2, Informative

This is quite possible with any number of cards. I have a blue-and-white G3 and my original video card purchase for it was a PC Radeon 7000 PCI. Unlike the then-current Mac version, it lacked an extra DVI port. However, it had 64MB DDR as compared to 32MB and cost less than half as much. Currently, I'm using a Radeon 9100 PCI with a hacked Mac ROM courtesy of this guy. Overall a much better purchase than ATI's upcoming 9200 PCI for Mac.

Re:Wait... not a Motorola 6800... an NVidia 6800.. by fyonn · 2004-07-21 02:07 · Score: 1

68000, not 6800.

I had those chips powering my amiga's, a 7.14mhz 68000 in my a500, a 14mhz 68020 in my 1200 and a 50mhz 68030/68882 in the blizzard board for my 1200.

damn, I feel old too now

dave

Re:Proud Owner by Peter+Cooper · 2004-07-21 02:11 · Score: 1

the already-hot temperatures emitted by my Duron @2.3 GHz.

You mean you pay out the ass for the latest video card and heatsinks, but you buy the cheapest CPU out there and push it to the very limits? That just sounds odd.

A note from the author by saddino · 2004-07-21 02:12 · Score: 4, Funny

My answers were designed specifically to provide little information, so there is no need for criticism. The site provided questions and I supply them with answers, if more details are requested, then I would support it. Compared to previous generation interviews, I redesigned my answers from the ground up and I think my word count was outstanding. Yes, Apple provides the answers sometimes. We supply them with talking points and let our quotes speak for themselves. The guys at ATI do a good job of squeezing out interesting information during their interviews, but our answers have a lot more headroom. Other differences include:

I support my pants with suspenders and they do not.
I speak marketing-speak fluently, and they don't.
I am the first one to make my points using bullets.

I answer questions with no add-ins of emotion. There is no technical reason why I would answer otherwise.

Sincerely,
Ujesh Desai

Re:A note from the author by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 05:02 · Score: 0

And thats the power of being a DESAI

Mahi - Vai

PC??? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 02:14 · Score: 0

They should totally realease that card for the PC market. If anything it will let apple sell some really nice and pricey displays, hell the damned thing costs as much if not more then most of their computers they sell.

Re:PC??? by daviddennis · 2004-07-21 04:47 · Score: 1

More. The most expensive PowerBook is $2,799 and the most expensive PowerMac is $2,999.

Out the door, the display + video card upgrade is almost $4k plus tax.

D

Re:Wait... not a Motorola 6800... an NVidia 6800.. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 02:17 · Score: 0

The Apple didn't use a Motorola 6800. They used a MOS 6502, which was sort of like a Motorola 6800, in the Apple II (Or various incarnations of the 6502, but never a 6800) They then used a Motorola 68000 in the Lisa and Macintosh.

Annoying marketing regression by flakier · 2004-07-21 02:17 · Score: 0, Offtopic

Great monitors but I just noticed that the 30inch isn't actualy 30 inces! They've regressed to crt marketing!

Come on apple, everybody else is sizing their LCD's by their viewable size let's not go back to the assinine advertised vs. viewable screen size. http://www.apple.com/displays/specs.html

--
--

Re:Annoying marketing regression by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 03:06 · Score: 2, Insightful

Yeah, because that .3" is a HUGE lie perpetrated by Apple, who obviously have a VESTED INTEREST! 30" is just a nice, round number. The fact that it's a little more than a quarter inch smaller than that is pretty piddling. Don't you have something more important to complain about?
Re:Annoying marketing regression by unclethursday · 2004-07-21 12:26 · Score: 1

oooooooooo .3" less viewable than the 30" stated.
Wow, that's sure like the CRT monitors with their normally over 1" less viewing space than advertised (17" CRT's have 15.9" viewable, for example).
Re:Annoying marketing regression by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-25 19:47 · Score: 0

"It's about a yard across." That better?

If you meant... by daveschroeder · 2004-07-21 02:17 · Score: 4, Insightful

..."the new ACD", as in "the new 30" Apple Cinema Display", ok.

But if you actually meant ADC, or "Apple Display Connector", that is no longer used. With the new line of displays, Apple has (thankfully) gone back to standard DVI for the displays and for their future OEM video cards.

Re:If you meant... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 02:40 · Score: 0

I'm happy that Apple has decided to go with DVI, as that's what all the PC's use. But I really wish it had been the other way around, the PC goes move to adc. ADC was totally cool, DVI, power, and usb all through a single cable/connector.

I've got a old (now) 20" cinema display and the adc to dvi adapter. It's great that with a new cinema display I wont need a hundred dollar adapter, just sucks that they had to go to less usefull tech, w/dvi.
Re:If you meant... by Lars+T. · 2004-07-22 00:58 · Score: 1

There's still only one (fixed) cable on the back of the new displays, that splits into four connectors - though I don't know how long that is.

--
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

Re:Wait... not a Motorola 6800... an NVidia 6800.. by stanmann · 2004-07-21 02:24 · Score: 1

And of course stepping further back the Apple 2 series running the 6800 knockoff the 6502.

--
Food not Bombs is a nice platitude but it breaks down when you notice that the Bombees are usually well fed

Re:Proud Owner by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 02:24 · Score: 0

Boo hoo. Why don't you use one of the 100's of graphics cards that work in your PC but not in my Mac.

Re:Apple is dying: Sell stock now. by killproc · 2004-07-21 02:25 · Score: 2, Funny

Apple teeters on the precipice of doom, one step away from plummeting to its ultimate nadir of bankruptcy, chaos, and implosion.

I thought the release date for the OSX version of Doom III was still up in the air...

--
When you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness. So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.

Re:Proud Owner by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 02:28 · Score: 0

He might need lots of screen real estate but not so much CPU power. Many design jobs and other tasks are like that, you know...

And those Durons aren't half bad, mind you. Or maybe he just ran out of money halfway through his upgrade ;-)

Re:First ever first post by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 02:29 · Score: 0

... you mean oppressor.

You think that's bad?!?!? by Klar · 2004-07-21 02:29 · Score: 1

LAST YEAR(2nd year University) we learend to code in assembly using a Motorola 6800 board--no lie! We had to pay $150 for the damn book that looked photocopied... /bitter

--
Boxing Equipment Reviews

Re:Proud Owner by Hungus · 2004-07-21 02:40 · Score: 1

Well I for one an not sorry to hear that:

"exclusivity agreement with Apple prevents them from releasing Linux for the Nvidia 6800 Ultra DDL Graphics Card."

I mean I personally have linuc running on enough devices as it is now if they wanted to post netbsd to the card that would be different. Oh wait, did you mean to say that it prevents them from releasing linux drivers for the card? Or, did you really want to run linux on the card itself?

--
Bad Panda! No Bamboo for you! In matters of importance ACs will not be responded to. Want to say something critical,OK

Radeon X800 Series by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 02:49 · Score: 1, Informative

For the Mac, dunno.

But Radeon X800 XT certainly matches (wins some, loses some) the GeForce 6800 Ultra in PC land. Reviews confirming this are in abundance.

But like said, dunno about Macs and driving 30" screens thru two dual-link DVI ports... Maybe not. I follow the developments in 3D hardware, and there haven't been any rumours or info about such a Radeon card (by ATI, Apple, or somebody else).

It would need four TDMS transmitters on board. Then again, the Evans & Sutherland four-way R300 card has eight ;-)

little-endian is the "right way" (TM) by mangu · 2004-07-21 02:50 · Score: 1

Comeon, calling little-endian "backwards" is flamebait...

Actually there is a justificative for little-endian, just like there is one for the British driving on the left. Casting values from 16 bits to 8 bits and vice-versa in little-endian machines is automatic. In the old days of limited memory this was an advantage. (As for driving on the left side of the road, it came from horse riding: one mounts a horse from the left side)

Re:little-endian is the "right way" (TM) by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 02:55 · Score: 0

As for driving on the left side of the road, it came from horse riding: one mounts a horse from the left side.

Hmm... I heard it was from the roman patrols, who marched on the left to keep their shield arm closer to the (am)bush...
Re:little-endian is the "right way" (TM) by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 10:05 · Score: 0

I too think it was because of the Romans but more for when they were in their chariots they would wield their whips or swords in their (usually dominant) right hands.
Driving on the left was forced upon all countries conquered by that short, left-handed, French twat Napoleon.
(The Americans just made the wrong choice).
Re:little-endian is the "right way" (TM) by tricorn · 2004-07-21 21:49 · Score: 1

Another way of doing the same thing, and one that I think would be interesting to try out, is to use "big endian" storage (which is more natural for people, or at least people who read strings from left to right and read numbers with the most significant digits on the left), but the address of a value is the last (least significant) byte.

One problem with either scheme, that isn't shared by big endian references, is that accessing a field using the wrong sized reference is more immediately obvious in more cases.

Doom 3. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 02:51 · Score: 0

That is, after all, the reason a PC would need such a powerful gaming card as well.

About time by seaniqua · 2004-07-21 02:52 · Score: 0, Offtopic

Maybe this will get my PC up to spec for Doom 3.

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Re:About time by seaniqua · 2004-07-21 06:56 · Score: 1

Jeez, try to make a joke and get modded offtopic. Sorrrr-ry

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Re:About time by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 09:48 · Score: 0

Maybe because it was completely offtopic. And not funny.

Seems to be a lot of confusion over dual-link DVI by shawnce · 2004-07-21 03:28 · Score: 4, Informative

The 30" monitors from Apple have a resolution that cannot be fed by a single-link DVI connection. So they use dual-link DVI. Both single-link and dual-link are part of the DVI 1.0 standard, nothing Apple specific about them.

The difference between single-link and dual-link is how many of the pins in the connector is used for transmitting data, in a nut shell 12 pins for the former and 24 pins for the later.

Apple is using DVI-D (digital only) DVI connectors with a dual-link pin out for the 30" display. So one dual-link DVI-D connection is capable of driving one 30" display. The 6800 adapter used for these displays provides two dual-link DVI-D outputs, so one adapter can drive two 30" displays.

As a reference...

DVI connector type summary
DVI 1.0 specification (PDF)

Re:Seems to be a lot of confusion over dual-link D by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 04:04 · Score: 0, Flamebait

nope -- the monitor is two TFT "panels" that are side-by-side. these panels normally come ot of the "panel machine" 4-, 6-, or 8-up in a sheet and are then sliced apart into individual displays.

what they've done here is left two stuck together.

check out the resolution -- 2560x1600. if you take two 1600x1280 screens, orient them vertically, and stick them together side-by-side, you get 2560x1600.

and now size -- a 21" 4:3 ratio TFT is roughly 16.8" wide x 12.6" tall. turning two of these panels on their narrow edge and joining them at a long edge yields a panel with roughly a 30" diagonal measurement (30.2 to be exact, but my original numbers weren't precise).

the card with two DVI outs is necessary to drive this thing because there are essentially two TFT panels to be driven.

Re:Proud Owner by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 04:07 · Score: 0

the price difference between a duron and the athlon xp of the same speed if generally 5-10 dollars.

in this case, its 3 dollars.
its amazing how cheap CPU's are to basically anything else in a computer.

That's the Motorola 68000 or 68k not 6800 by mosb1000 · 2004-07-21 04:19 · Score: 0, Redundant

I think you mean the 68000 series, as in 68020 / 68030 / 68040. No biggy, just an extra zero. Man, remember when you had to look for a computer with a floating point coprocessor listed as a feature? I used to have a Performa 630 without a FP. You would not believe how slowly things render when the FP is emulated. I eventually "upgraded" to a PPC 601, but that actually seem to slow the OS down because it had to emulate a lot of the old 68000 code present in Mac OS 7.5 at the time. Now I feel old and I'm only 22.

what I really want to know by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 04:19 · Score: 0

Q: Will the 6800 be fast enough for SimCity on a 30" ACD?

A: I guess I'll have to wait until my dual 2.5 G5 w/6800 & 30" display gets delivered in late August to find out.

Mod Parent Up by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 04:28 · Score: 0

Why is this modded flamebait?

It looks like this post was just explaining information about the new card - am I missing something? Seems like a pretty BS mod to me.

Re:Seems to be a lot of confusion over dual-link D by daviddennis · 2004-07-21 04:41 · Score: 1

Since you seem to know what you're talking about ... does this mean I can drive any DVI monitor with this card, not just the 30"?

I'm curious because I have 23" Cinema HD Display and would like to drive it alongside the 30" when I buy it. Don't want to waste the old technology, don't you know.

Can I do this, assuming that I get a ADC to DVI adapter for the Cinema Display?

Thanks!

D

Doom3... coming in Decem^H^H^H^H^HJuly 2005... by CatOne · 2004-07-21 04:52 · Score: 1

To a Mac near you!

Though, UT2004 runs quite well on a Mac. As do Call of Duty and BF 1942. Halo is a bit slow.

This at 1920x1200 resolution (23" Cinema Display)... played at WWDC on a 2x2.0 G5 with a Radeon 9800. Frame rates at that res were pretty consistent 70 FPS, never dropping below 40. So it's not ALL bad.

Though BUYING a Mac specifically to be a gaming machine, I might not advise that ;-)

Re:Seems to be a lot of confusion over dual-link D by mplex · 2004-07-21 04:57 · Score: 1

I'm not sure about this, because I have two 1600x1200 displays, and I have a single DVI connector from the back of my FX5200(POS) that connects to a splitter cable that gives me two DVI connectors to connect both displays. What the above poster is talking about is the type of connector that I have, a 24-pin DVI that can drive two displays with a splitter, or theoretically, one dual display without. I once saw a page with all of the DVI connectors, and there must have been 8-10 different type of connectors. Some supported analog and digital, other just digital. Anyway, that's my thoughts. It's a still a very confusing technology.

Re:Seems to be a lot of confusion over dual-link D by shawnce · 2004-07-21 05:11 · Score: 2, Informative

Humm not fully sure... dual-link works by sending even and odd pixels for a given color channel down two different links. Single link transmits even and odd pixels over a single link.

Basically DVI defines 6 signal pairs for pixel data, in single-link 3 of the 6 are used, one for each color channel (RGB). In dual-link even pixels go down one bank of 3 while odds go down the other bank of 3.

From what I can see the channel definition for connections is the same for single-link and dual-link. So in theory it could work if the adapter could toggle between sending just even pixels to sending even and odd pixels on the first set of links.

Re:Seems to be a lot of confusion over dual-link D by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 05:36 · Score: 0

I think you are answering the wrong question. I believe the Grandparent is asking if Apple's 6800 DDL can drive a 30" and 23" display at the same time and the parent is answering whether 2 displays could be driven off of one dual-link DVI port.

A single dual-link DVI-I port can drive any DVI-I monitor, so the answer to the grandparent is Yes, as long as you get the ADC -> DVI adapter.

Re:Help censor the American media by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 05:42 · Score: 0

I bet if you talked congress into giving the palestinians 3 billion dollars in cash and weapons every year, they would be happy to fight isreal with f-16's, ah-64's, tomahawk cruise missles, mavericks etc. Terrorism is a desperate act, by desperate people. Put yourself in their shoes. You have no money, and are fighting against the occupation of your land. The occupiers have an endless supply of money and weapons, supplied by a third nation (so they can fight forever, with no financial impact on their own country). What do you do? You fight however you can, wherever you can.

Besides, Israeli leaders advocate terrorism. They always have (read about the King David Hotel bombing, it was one of the first modern terrorist attacks). They advocate assasinations in other soveriegn nations, and have for decades. Read that again. It is POLICY to assasinate those they don't like, outside of their country. Including the wrong targets, more than once.

Support who you want, I think they are both wrong, but don't blind yourself to the truth. The Israelis are a bunch of scumbags, of the highest order (not Jews, Israelis). They use terror, they ignore UN resolutions, they torture, they murder, their leadership is filled with war criminals, and they whine like a bunch of spoiled schoolgirls. They brand anyone who disagrees with them as anti-semetic, and are as dangerous as allies as they are as enemies.

Everyone has a right to exist, be they Jew or Arab.

Re:Proud Owner by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 05:48 · Score: 0

Oh, come on. It's several times more powerful than some of the computers people use, so why not put it to use? Linux in a ramdisk, set up at boot, while the system uses another (cheapo) PCI card. Kind-of sort-of possibly not entirely useless. If someone could hack up a DVI-to-PCI adapter and some ugly code to drive it, well, even better.

(Just don't ask me to make it work)

Re:Wait... not a Motorola 6800... an NVidia 6800.. by skeptikos · 2004-07-21 05:59 · Score: 1

As other posters pointed out, you are thinking about the 68K family. Motorola produced a 6800 processor, though. It had an 8 bit data bus and a 16 bit addr bus. It was sort of an advanced 6502 (used in Apple II's). I'm not aware of any computer based on the 6800. Radio Shack sold the famous Color Computer based on the 6809 and the Micro Color Computer based on the 6803, IIRC. The 6800 was sold mostly in kits used by hobbists and in universities, to build small projects.

Re:Apple Fanatics are retarded by Halo1 · 2004-07-21 06:02 · Score: 1

notice how the interviewer seems to think that somehow Apple Hardware and PC Hardware are different?

Mac and PC video cards with the same model number actually have been different already several times in the past (e.g. different core/memory speeds). But please don't let this information influence your view of Mac users.

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Re:Article Text: Im AC 'cause i dont want the karm by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 06:06 · Score: 0

xlr8yourmac is one of the best Mac sites out there, period, and has been for a decade or so. (Before I started using /., xlr8yourmac was my homepage for years.) It's truly a one-man operation, totally non-commerical, getting by on limited advertising revenue from Mac-only companies. Why are you trying to steal Mike's traffic on this?

Re:Help censor the American media by daviddennis · 2004-07-21 06:08 · Score: 1

Honestly, if I were there, I would try to forget the whole mess an do something productive in my life that had nothing to do with fighting.

That's what everyone else should be doing, too.

This is a decade-long war! Live with things as they are, people. It's not worth trying to change things.

D

Chess.app is now OpenGL, rev up that GPU! by green+pizza · 2004-07-21 06:14 · Score: 1

We need that GPU power to drive the year's greatest advancement in Mac games... the new version of Chess.app in Mac OS X 10.3 Panther!!

Yessir, the 10.3 version of Chess now has a true OpenGL-baed 3D board. You can view from any angle and can even adjust the textures! Hooray!

For those not familar with Chess.app, it is the (opensource) bundled game for Mac OS X. Until the most recent version, it had been largely unchanged from its original form in the NeXTSTEP OS.

(BTW, the Apple Puzzle game, which has been around since System 1.0, isn't yet available native for OS X, but it might reappear as one of the Javascript+CSS3 applets in the Dashboard of 10.4 Tiger next spring)

Re:Seems to be a lot of confusion over dual-link D by shawnce · 2004-07-21 06:16 · Score: 1

Nope I was trying to answer if the dual-link DVI-D connection on the adapter can be used to drive a single-link DVI-D expecting display. I believe he is asking if he can use the 6800 dual-link adapter to drive displays other then a 30" display.

It would require that the adapter understand that the connected display is single-link and hence not do the even/odd splitting. I don't know if the adapter supports that or not. Pin out wise it should work if the adapter does the right thing.

Re:Seems to be a lot of confusion over dual-link D by shawnce · 2004-07-21 06:39 · Score: 2, Informative

A single dual-link DVI-I port can drive any DVI-I monitor, so the answer to the grandparent is Yes, as long as you get the ADC -> DVI adapter.

Actually this isn't true or we wouldn't have dual-link for example. It depends on the resolution and refresh rate, basically the bandwidth needs of the display.

Also...
DVI-I = connector carrying both a digital and analog signal
DVI-D = connector carrying just a digital signal
DVI-A = connector carrying just analog (extra to DVI specification)

For the digital aspect of DVI connections you can have either single-link or dual-link (supported by either DVI-I or DVI-D connectors, at least fully connected ones). So don't confuse DVI-D as implying dual-link, it just implies a digital only connector.

Apple's new displays use DVI-D connectors (at least that is what I recall seeing) with the 20" and 23" screens using single-link and the 30" using dual-link. The older displays used ADC connectors (basically single-link DVI with pin out for usb and display power). Apple's DVI to ADC converter has a DVI-D connector on it (looked at the one under my desk). Apple doesn't provide a ADC to DVI converter but third parties do (also ones for ADC->VGA).

DVI -> ADC converter converts a DVI output to an ADC output (what you need to drive an ADC only monitor if you adapter doesn't sport ADC)

ADC -> DVI converter converts a ADC output to a DVI output

I am not sure if the adapter in question sports DVI-I or DVI-D outputs (traditionally I believe adapters have DVI-I, at least high end ones). You can plug a DVI-D cable into either a DVI-D or DVI-I output. Also having DVI-I outputs allows the easy split out of VGA if needed.

Re:Seems to be a lot of confusion over dual-link D by shawnce · 2004-07-21 06:43 · Score: 1

oops... I read your "single dual-link" as "single-link" in your statement "A single dual-link DVI-I port can drive any DVI-I monitor, so the answer to the grandparent is Yes, as long as you get the ADC -> DVI adapter.".

Why is this an Apple story? by callipygian-showsyst · 2004-07-21 06:48 · Score: 1

The same card is available (albeit in limited quantites right now for developers) for Windows machines!

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Best Buy can have you arrested

3Dlabs Wildcat Realizm by kingjosh · 2004-07-21 06:57 · Score: 1

The 3Dlabs Wildcat REALIZM 200 has dual link connectors, and is very impressive in other aspects as well.

"The Wildcat Realizm 200 boasts a VPU and 512 MB of onboard memory, the largest graphics memory available on an AGP 8x-based graphics accelerator to effortlessly handle large models and textures. Wildcat Realizm 200 is equipped with two, dual-link DVI-I connectors, which are ideal for driving multiple high-resolution professional displays from a single graphics accelerator, including the dual high-end 9.2 Megapixel displays."

Re:Article Text: Im AC 'cause i dont want the karm by Hes+Nikke · 2004-07-21 07:05 · Score: 1

why do i get the impression that the above interview was with one of those stupid chat bot's that give generic answers based on key words in the question?

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Re:Seems to be a lot of confusion over dual-link D by Wesley+Felter · 2004-07-21 07:06 · Score: 1

This is Apple we're talking about. It just works.

higher than 2560 x 1600 resolution. by RogueScientist · 2004-07-21 07:45 · Score: 1

I think you are slightly misinformed with regard to graphics resolution capabilities of cards available on the general market. For some time 3Dlabs, and Matrox have had the ability to drive the IBM T221 displays which have a native resolution of 3840x2400 still higher than the new 30" cinema display offering from Apple. The connection interface wasn't designed by Apple to support the 30" display. Also if note Apple's offerings have yet to hit the market while the T221's have been available for over a year.

It's all about OF... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 08:13 · Score: 0

OF uses code stored in the card for hardware initialization. Since OF requires the firmware to be in a bytecode based on the forth programming language (F-code), and provides an interpreter for such language, OF devices are portable between different architectures. So, yes, the same card would work on Sun. It would be initialized and you would get a framebuffer, at least. For more advanced features you would still require high-level video drivers in native code.

PC hardware is locked to ACPI and other bunch of "standards" created by Intel. While there are some stuff similar to F-Code (AML) it is not used by anyone who is not x86 compatible. And I doubt that Intel would ever adopt OF, making hardware really CPU independent.

Of course, you usually can burn at your own risk a pirate firmware in your PC card. But the price difference is to justify the development and support costs of the "not mainstream" plaftorm.

Sweet! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 08:30 · Score: 0

2560 x 1600 pixels?!? Damn, if I has one of these, I'd have to invest it better porn!

Linux? by linuxpyro · 2004-07-21 09:27 · Score: 1

Linux drivers would be nice also.

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Re:Article Text: Im AC 'cause i dont want the karm by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-21 09:34 · Score: 0

Heard of the slashdot effect?

he's doing this "mike" a favor, doof.

Re:Seems to be a lot of confusion over dual-link D by Moofie · 2004-07-21 10:19 · Score: 1

I got to put my fingerprints on the smaller two Apple Cinema Displays yesterday, and I've got to say: The thought of two 30" Cinema Displays gives me a stiffy. They are super badass looking screens.

Sorry. Just thought I'd share.

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Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!

Re:Seems to be a lot of confusion over dual-link D by Moofie · 2004-07-21 10:22 · Score: 1

You'd use one of the two dual-link DVI ports on the 6800 to run the Uber-Monitor, and the other one with a DVI->ADC adaptor dongle to run the 23" display.

Or, (and this is what I suggest) he should just get two new Cinema Displays and send me that crusty old 23" to me as a thank-you gift for explaining how this works.

*toothy grin*

--
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!

Re:Seems to be a lot of confusion over dual-link D by shawnce · 2004-07-21 10:35 · Score: 1

Yes but do you know for the fact that a given dual-link output on the 6800 will correctly fall back to being single-link when a single-link only device is connected?

I cannot find conformation of that in any docs, ideally it should but...

Re:Seems to be a lot of confusion over dual-link D by Moofie · 2004-07-21 10:44 · Score: 1

Good question. You'd think, right?

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Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!

Re:Seems to be a lot of confusion over dual-link D by tricorn · 2004-07-21 22:00 · Score: 1

If it says it conforms to the DVI standard, then yes, it must support single-link devices properly. It doesn't necessarily have to support any particular resolutions, but it seems unlikely they'd deliberately cripple it.

The DVI spec says that if a particular resolution CAN be done on a single-link, the adapter MUST use single-link. It can only shift up to dual-link if the bandwidth is too high at the chosen resolution, refresh rate and pixel color depth.

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