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New Solution For Your Transistor BBQ

Posted by timothy on from the but-the-ribs-aren't-done-yet dept.

servantsoldier writes "There's a new solution for the transistor heat problem: Make them out of charcoal... The AP is reporting that Japanese researchers, led by Daisuke Nakamura of Toyota Central R&D Laboratories Inc., have discovered a way to use silicon carbide instead of silicon in the creation of transistor wafers. The Japanese researchers discovered that they can build silicon carbide wafers by using a multiple-step process in which the crystals are grown in several stages. As a result, defects are minimized. Other benefits are decreased weight and a more rugged material. The researchers say that currently only a 3" wafer has been produced and that a marketable product is at least six years away."

191 comments

  1. Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Calculate PI while cooking a brat. Woot.

    1. Re:Wow by Stripe7 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Developments like this in Japan and other countries tell me the the US not losing its technological edge it has already lost it. Japan patents brand new tech like this while in the US we patent SUDO and 1 click shopping.

    2. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      I live in Japan and work for a Japanese company. Trust me, stupid business process patents are not unique to the U.S. Our company has attempted (sometimes successfully) to patent some of the most obvious, blatant crap by tagging "online" onto it. AND WE'RE NOT EVEN A TECH COMPANY!!

      In the event that we find out that someone else already HAS "invented" this idea, it is usually NTT (Nippon Telephone and Telegraph) which has also registered the hell out of a shit load of trademarks that it doesn't use.

      And, over here, there are a lot of people worried that we've really lost our tech edge against China and Taiwan. To a certain extent, I think they're right. China and Taiwan used to be copiers, not innovators. But then again, so was Japan half a century ago. Recently, China and Taiwan have started innovating too. It should have been obvious that they "could" innovate, about 18 years ago when the first fake Nintendo consoles from Taiwan were found. They say over 80% of the circuitry, including the CPU, was original, and not a copy. (Then again, a lot of the fake Apple IIe machines back then were pretty original too, sometimes with features that weren't available on the real thing!)

    3. Re:Wow by Donny+Smith · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Before, Taiwan (or Japan) would do just fine by making the same thing cheaper, now that doesn't quite cut it any more.

      Necessity ... I'd say that overall, the ability to innovate is inversely proportional to well-being of individuals.

      Money-hungry folks from India and China should out-innovate equally smart people from other countries, just because they're trying harder.

      In some ways, I think social injustice is perhaps a motivating factor, too - unless you come up with something new, it's hard to make it to the top by hard work alone.

    4. Re:Wow by essreenim · · Score: 1

      unless you come up with something new, it's hard to make it to the top by hard work alone.
      Socialism.

    5. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pancakes

      (Well it makes a smuch sense as the parents post)

    6. Re:Wow by essreenim · · Score: 1

      but not as much sense as capitalism (for the masses) sadly. Enkoy those pancakes. Add extra syrup : )

    7. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Umm, what about Cree, who already offer SiC wafers? Anybody know what is going on in Cree's development labs? They are very secretive. Just because there is no press release doesn't mean there is no development.

    8. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yah.. socialism sucks.

  2. OMFGBBQ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does this mean we may have very quiet, fan-less systems in the future?

    1. Re:OMFGBBQ! by WyrdOne · · Score: 1

      Possibly. More likely you will have a CPU that can withstand higher temperatures without frying itself. Remember energy is a constant. It cannot be destroyed only changed. You are pouring loads of wattage into a modern CPU, a good portion of which is being converted into waste heat.

      This tech won't generate less heat (shrinking transistor size does that). But it will means if your CPU cooler falls off that the CPU doesn't go poof in a ball of magic smoke. That and cracked cores are a thing of the past.

    2. Re:OMFGBBQ! by Renegrade · · Score: 1

      Actually, the new process might take less energy to switch states than current processes, (higher efficiency) thusly creating less heat. CMOS chips, for instance, ran cooler than NMOS equivalents, as I recall.

      ---

      And in reply to the parent of the parent of this post, I do own at least four production-scale, original stock computers, which have no fans and run pretty much cool. A Commodore 128, Amiga 500 (x2) and Amiga 1200. None of these machines have any moving parts in their stock configuration save the floppy drives, which normally don't move except during loading. They neither have nor require any fans, not even in the power supplies.

      That was basically the way in the old days. PCs had power supply fans, and many other machines did not. Cocos, Ataris, etc, also did not have fans. Those old Commodore boxes were pretty damned useful too - the 1200 could chat on IRC, compile software in the background, edit source, and surf web pages with only a 4 meg ram upgrade card (total 6 megs - 2 megs shared video/cpu, 4 megs dedicated cpu ram) and a hard drive. Using only 23 watts of power, too. Couple that with a very power misery LCD and you could have a useful little box (well, keyboard, really) for the power of a lightbulb. None of this 600 watt PC nonsense. (Even my more modest 350W PC makes the lights dim slightly when I flick on the switch at the back of the PSU..ow)

  3. Awesome by twenty-exty-six · · Score: 0, Funny

    I'll finally be able to build that transistor grill I've always wanted. Reminds me of back in High School when we would try to cook things on bare 486 DX2 chips. The cookies came out ok I guess...

    --
    Free Image Hosting
  4. i wonder by bigtallguy · · Score: 1

    when will they start using humans hair in the hopes that it will better our computers?

  5. Sigh, i must be really tired. by Baka_kun · · Score: 4, Funny

    the text said "... that Japanese researchers, led by Daisuke Nakamura of Toyota Central R&D Laboratories Inc., ..."

    but i read "...that Japanese researchers, led by Duke Nukem of Toyota Central R&D Laboratories Inc., ..."

    other than this, Great, if this works in practice well be having new smaller cpus for everything.

    but im still waiting for a pda without screen, that uses my glasses as a screen.. but thats more of scifi than reality.

    1. Re:Sigh, i must be really tired. by Nermal6693 · · Score: 2, Funny

      but im still waiting for a pda without screen, that uses my glasses as a screen.. but thats more of scifi than reality.

      Making glasses into a screen is the easy part. The hard part is making them look like ordinary glasses, rather than a big sign proclaiming 'GEEK!'

    2. Re:Sigh, i must be really tired. by Gnpatton · · Score: 0
      the text said "... that Japanese researchers, led by Daisuke Nakamura of Toyota Central R&D Laboratories Inc., ..." but i read "...that Japanese researchers, led by Duke Nukem of Toyota Central R&D Laboratories Inc., ..."
      nono if you look further in the article they state that the technology won't be ready for industry for another 6 years, while we all know that the next Duke Nukem isn't going to be released before the universe (implodes / expands to a heatless state, whichever you believe)
    3. Re:Sigh, i must be really tired. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fact you read something wrong and thought it was funny only proves you're gay with bad eyesight

    4. Re:Sigh, i must be really tired. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, Motorola has made design prototypes that were cool. I submitted the story but it seems the design utterly lacked the geekyness you feared, yet apparently is required in here.

      Makes sense perhaps.

    5. Re:Sigh, i must be really tired. by 1010011010 · · Score: 4, Interesting


      Silicon Carbide does work -- Cree, Inc. of Durham, NC has been manufacturing electronics (particularly blue LEDs) for years using silicon carbide as the substrate. The technology was developed at NC State University, as I recall.

      --
      Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
    6. Re:Sigh, i must be really tired. by mikael · · Score: 1

      You may be dyslexic when reading English. Learning a different language that reads from right to left may eliminate this problem.
      Alternatively you should have your optical system replaced with that of the Mantis Shrimp, which has eight different retinal pigments
      ranging from ultra-violet to ruby red, and a couple of layer of polarisation filters added for good measure. This should sort out your reading problem.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    7. Re:Sigh, i must be really tired. by budgenator · · Score: 1

      I read it as Daisey Duke the first time, I better not attempt any critical thinking until the coffee gets in the blood.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    8. Re:Sigh, i must be really tired. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why screw around with the eye? Just plug in directly to the cortex.

    9. Re:Sigh, i must be really tired. by Captain+DaFt · · Score: 1

      I remember reading an article about the first LED which showed a picture of it; a piece of carborundum (silicon carbide) taped to a ruler with two wires used to "tickle" the crystal to find the sweet spot.
      Googled around and all I could find was this short piece at http://www.onr.navy.mil/sci_tech/information/312_e lectronics/ncsr/devices/led.asp

      An LED works in a similar fashion to the pn-junction diode electrically, though the first LED was created as a Schottky-like diode with a rectifying contact on carborundum (SiC) by H.L. Round in 1907. He applied up to 110V to crystals and noted orange to blue electroluminescence.

      (Probably not strictly on topic, but I thought it was interesting)

      --
      The U.S. really needs an English to Wisdom dictionary.
    10. Re:Sigh, i must be really tired. by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      OFFTOPIC:
      You may be dyslexic when reading English
      So for kicks I read the articles and it would seem that if learning to read right to left were to fix the person in question I would be very worried for their general health for if a hematoma bursts in the brain you're in really deep schnizzit, and anything else causing that lingual defect can only be worse...

      Quick! run to the ER (this is not medical advice, IANAD)
      -nB

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    11. Re:Sigh, i must be really tired. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But calling silicon cabide charcoal is about an informed as saying diamonds are the same thing as graphite. Perhaps it is meant to make a catchy headline, but for people who are aware of the vast range of materials that are composed of SiC this is an annoying reference.

    12. Re:Sigh, i must be really tired. by corngrower · · Score: 1

      And if the semiconductor industry doesn't work out for them, they can always make drill bits.

    13. Re:Sigh, i must be really tired. by Epi-man · · Score: 1

      The technology was developed at NC State University, as I recall.

      And Purdue University.

    14. Re:Sigh, i must be really tired. by Baka_kun · · Score: 0

      no, not really. its just that whenever im tired, words switch places, i keep hearing stuff people havent said etc.

      on a sidenote, i love reading, especially books in the language they were written in. im not english btw, im swedish, so yes its my second language.

    15. Re:Sigh, i must be really tired. by sag_ich_nicht · · Score: 1

      link?

  6. Finally... Heat can be put to good use by chatgris · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This may be modded as funny.. But realistically, think about this.

    The amount of heat being generated by chips does not seem to be decreasing at all, and this material appears to be produced to be "heat resistant" instead of more efficient.

    How long until your PC puts out enough heat that it would be economical to re-use that heat for a hot water tank, or for winter heating?

    How long until we need special 240V plugs like electric stoves have for power?

    I think that emphasis on more efficient chips is a better venture than heat resistant materials, as the whole heat byproduct of CPU's seems to be sprialling out of control.

    Josh

    --
    Open Your Mind. Open Your Source.
  7. Imagine ... by valmont · · Score: 0, Redundant

    ... a lighter and more rugged beowulf cluster of those.

    --
    Extraordinary Vacations. Exceptional Prices
    1. Re:Imagine ... by commodoresloat · · Score: 0

      Imagine eating a hamburger cooked on said cluster.

  8. Charcoal? by mikeophile · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Think knife-sharpener.

    Silicon carbide is really hard stuff.

    It's not quite diamond, but with a hardness of 9.25, you could use your SiC processor to grind real axes and not just figurative ones in flamewars.

    1. Re:Charcoal? by frankmu · · Score: 1

      you're right: born from a star

      --
      Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
    2. Re:Charcoal? by DarkMan · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Not quite.

      I've got a quitea bit of experience with SiC abrasives, what with the materials engineering and being a bit of a lapidary.

      First off, it's nowhere near diamond in terms of hardness. The Mohs scale is semi-arbitary in assignement, and not even vaugely linear. On proper hardness scale (in this case Vickers), diamond has a hardness of around 90 GPa, compared to about 25 GPa for SiC. That's the reason I've got a box full of diamond abrasives, despite the cost (about 30 times more expensive), they are much faster, and last almost indefinitly. More later on this.

      Secondly, SiC needs to be rough. If you don't belive me, try grinding a carrot into shape on a window. The glass is very much harder then the carrot, but is nearly perfectly smooth, and as such, the carrot just sides about. Compare with rubbing the carrot on something like a concrete paving slab, which grinds it much better. The reative hardnesses are wrong here, but show the need for surface roughness.

      As an aside, if you think that paper cuts are bad from standard office paper, then try getting one from fine SiC abrasive paper. Stiffer paper, cuts deeper, and the abrasive roughs up one side of the cut, so it takes about four times as long to heal. It's a mistake I've made exactly once.

      A processor is not a single pure material - if it was, it wouldn't do anything. They are a complex layered system, with layers of copper and SiO. Trying to grind anything with a processor die will just succed in scraping off all that important stuff. The hardness of SiO is Mohs 7, well below that of anything actually used as an abrasive for metals. (It's the same as ground glass, near enough, sometimes used for abrading wood or plastics).

      For comparison silicon has a hardness of 12 GPa Vickers. SiC is only around twice as hard as that.

      So, no, you can't really use it as an abrasive. If you really want to be very careful, you might be able to use the edge of the die as a scraper, but you'd probably just remove the important stuff.

      That's alla moot point, however. I strongly supect that you'll never see the actuall die, it will be under a metal heat spreader. Because they can cope with higher temperatures [0], there is even less need to take the risk of mishandling breaking the die.

      And lest you think that SiC would be less likely to break then silicon, I'm afraid not. Aside from the fact that many broken Athlons are due to the top few layers of SiO and metal breaking, SiC is not that tougher than silicon. As any lapidary will tell you, it's perfectly possible to chip saphire and diamond, if you're not careful.

      Still, I can't deny that facts aside, it's a wonderfuly evocative metaphor.

      [0] And how much higher! Silicon tops out at 350 C, SiC could operatate at 600 C, where is it glowing red hot! sourced from Nasa

  9. how hot? by iamdrscience · · Score: 1

    The article is kind of vague on the details, for instance, just how much hotter are these semiconductors going to be able to run? Is it possible that chips made from these will have to use a non-plastic casing material? If so, that would be very cool. I doubt it though, that'd have to be pretty hot.

    1. Re:how hot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      cool.. hot... make up your mind, make a decision

    2. Re:how hot? by mikeophile · · Score: 1

      You know those tiles on the bottom of the Space Shuttle?

      Silicon Carbide baby.

    3. Re:how hot? by struppi · · Score: 2, Informative
      Here's some more information about this topic:

      http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/RT1997/5000/5510neudec k2.htm
      http://www.acreo.se/templates/Page____577.aspx

      I just asked Google

    4. Re:how hot? by jcr · · Score: 1

      Well, that depends. Silicon carbide can take a lot of heat, but you need more than the substrate to have a functioning chip. The limit will probably be whatever the interconnects can stand.

      What makes this more interesting from a heat standpoint, is that silicon carbide should do a far better job of conducting heat than today's silicon wafers. IOW, more efficient cooling.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    5. Re:how hot? by mikeophile · · Score: 1

      What if the chips didn't have physical interconnections?

      Silicon radio interconnects could let these chips run very hot.

      I think these two things combined will be huge in the next few years.

    6. Re:how hot? by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      Chips have been using ceramic casings for a long long time. Of course flip-chips (such as Athlons) don't have casings at all.

      --
      http://blog.nexusuk.org
    7. Re:how hot? by jcr · · Score: 1

      The interconnects I was referring to are those conductors which attach one device to another within the same chip, ie the power and signal traces. Your link refers to connections from one chip to another.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
  10. In Japan... by Johnny+Fusion · · Score: 5, Funny
    The researchers say that currently only a 3" wafer has been produced

    Hirohito: Oh! You must have very big wafer!

    Owner: Excuse me?! I was just asking you what you're up to with this manufacturing process!

    Nothing! We are very simple people with very small wafer! Mr. Hosek's wafer is especially small!

    Hosek: He he he! So small!

    Hirohito: We cannot achieve much with so small wafer! But, you Americans! Wow! Wafer so big! SO BIG Wafer!

    Owner: Well, I-I guess it is a pretty good size

    --
    There are two kinds of fool. One says, This is old, and therefore good. And one says, This is new, and therefore better.
    1. Re:In Japan... by Gnpatton · · Score: 0

      whats that from again? i forget

    2. Re:In Japan... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      South park, the one with chinpokomon

    3. Re:In Japan... by drmaxx · · Score: 1

      This is the famouse Japanese wafer defense (SP, 310 - Chinpokomon), slightly inferior to the Chewbacca defense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_Defense).

    4. Re:In Japan... by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Is racist humor popular in Japan as well?

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    5. Re:In Japan... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yes.

  11. typical bad science journalism by harlemjoe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    From the article....
    In an advance that could lead to lighter spacecraft and smarter cars, researchers have developed a new technique for producing a high-quality computer chip that is much more resistant to extreme conditions than the silicon found in most of today's electronics.

    So a chip more resistant to extreme conditions is also somehow 'lighter' and 'smarter'...

    A good step forward for science, but not for science journalism...

    --
    shooting is not too good for my enemies
    1. Re:typical bad science journalism by mikeophile · · Score: 5, Informative

      The chip itself isn't lighter, but the cooling equipment required can be much smaller, making for much lighter and rugged devices that use those chips.

      But yeah, that article was pretty light on details.

    2. Re:typical bad science journalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      You've misread the article.

      These chips are made of carbide. They are carb smart.

    3. Re:typical bad science journalism by blackwing0013 · · Score: 0

      Lighter, as other posters said, you could basically reduce the amount of cooling gear needed. As for smarter, well maybe it means you can probably more computing power in the car. This could actually mean more precise control of the car's internals so that you could get more horsepower or speed, even if it's only a fraction of a percent, just like what most overclockes do with their PCs. Could also mean the car's electronics may be able to operate on more extreme conditions because heat, as we know it has negative effects on a transistor's performance.

    4. Re:typical bad science journalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does that say that the chips are lighter and smarter?

      You might want to touch up on your reading comprehension.

  12. Re:An FP a day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Ooh, so desu ka.

  13. Charcoal processors? by gatesh8r · · Score: 3, Funny

    Gives new meaning to "burning up your CPU". Better hope the non-techies never open up their machines...

    --
    Karma whorin' since 1999
  14. Re:I for one... by bm_luethke · · Score: 3, Funny

    Briquette's? A true geek would realise that the chunk charcoal overlord is vastly superior in flavor, heat, cleanup, and ability to lead the masses.

    --
    ------- Sorry about the spelling, I suffer from two problems. Dyslexia makes it difficult to spell well, lazy makes it
  15. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Most countries have 240v to begin with.

  16. Sandpaper by vanyel · · Score: 1

    Your cpus will have a new use when obsolete...

  17. Six years away? Super! by teamhasnoi · · Score: 5, Funny
    I'll be able to use these in my flexible paper display ebook with fuel cell technology as I drive to work in my hydrogen powered flying car!

    I can't wait!

    1. Re:Six years away? Super! by Grey+Tomorrow · · Score: 0

      On the plus side, by that time your car will be able to pilot itself while you play Duke Nukem Forever.

    2. Re:Six years away? Super! by Dogers · · Score: 1

      whoa, hey, we're talking SIX not SIXTY years here!

      Duke Nukem indeed..

      --
      I am a viral sig. Please copy me and help me spread. Thank you.
    3. Re:Six years away? Super! by Zak3056 · · Score: 1

      I'll be able to use these in my flexible paper display ebook with fuel cell technology as I drive to work in my hydrogen powered flying car!

      Hey, at least they were honest and it wasn't a story like "new petabyte hard drive to ship early next year."

      --
      What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
  18. a good idea? by N5 · · Score: 1

    I'm all for being able to OC the hell outa my proc and not be worried about burning it..

    BUT

    These CPUs would be far more durable and last a lot longer. Why is that a problem? Think about the last time your job/office/place of business replaced computers. You're gonna be stuck with that slow machine a whole lot longer.

    --
    John 3:16 - The easiest way to a BETTER YOU.
    1. Re:a good idea? by jimicus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No you won't. Can you imagine Compaq, Dell or IBM voluntarily producing a PC which never wears out?

    2. Re:a good idea? by Y2K+is+bogus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So the major PC makers wouldn't want to make products that never fail and never require spare parts, except due to catastrophe?

      Producing spares isn't their primary focus, and every RMA for stupid broken stuff is costly. A laptop that exceeds the 3 year warranty without breaking would be music to their ears, and consumers.

      Your logic is flawed. It isn't "wearing out" that makes people buy new computers, it's the fact that it's too slow or old. Most computers end up surplused, just check the HUGE secondary market that feeds many multi-million dollar surplus businesses. There are a handful of long time surplus shops in Silicon valley that have derived a long history from the computing industry around here.

    3. Re:a good idea? by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Oh they'll make parts which fail all right. Usually about a week after the warranty runs out.

  19. Next step: diamond by CityZen · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If you've got the carbon, why bother with the silicon? Actually, I wonder what they use to "dope" diamond semiconductors?

    http://www.eetimes.com/at/hpm/news/OEG20030822S000 5

    1. Re:Next step: diamond by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Diamond?

      Don't stick it in your oven.

      Hmmmmmm.

      How hot does an overclocked diamond CPU get, anyway?

    2. Re:Next step: diamond by Dr.+Stavros · · Score: 1
      Actually, I wonder what they use to "dope" diamond semiconductors?
      For p-type diamond (i.e. the holes are the carriers), diamond is doped with boron. In fact, it's hard to get/grow diamond without some boron in there, hence most diamond is naturally p-type. Boron in diamond has an activation energy of 0.37 eV, which is low (i.e. good) as far as diamond goes, but pretty poor compared to dopant activation energies about an order of magnitude lower in silicon.

      At present, for n-type (i.e. electron) diamond, phosphorus is the best dopant. It has an activation energy of 0.6 eV, hence the story is clearly not as good as it is with p-type doping.

      However, my work modelling potential defects in diamond has predicted that a substitutional arsenic defect will have an n-type activation energy of around 0.3 eV, meaning that arsenic could be used to create n-type diamond on a par with boron-doped p-type material.

    3. Re:Next step: diamond by PatrickThomson · · Score: 1

      That's pretty cool. I wonder how the heat tolerances for diamond will be like, I know it's a damn good thermal conductor.

      --
      I am one of many. My idea is not unique, nor do I expect my voice alone to sway you. I speak in a chorus of opinion.
  20. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by Lisandro · · Score: 1

    You can do that right now. My Athlon 1800+ keeps my room nicely warm in winter, and it's a (relatively) low consumption chip.

  21. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by CamTarn · · Score: 1

    A couple of those, connected via heatpipe to a hotplate at the top of the case, would make an excellent hot-plate for a coffee or tea pot =)

    As for the plugs - well, there's some way to go yet. At the moment, power supplies are on the order of 5-600W. An electric heater can put out up to 3000 or so watts.

    I used to run a constantly-on heater, two PCs, three monitors, some random home networking equipment and a desk lamp all off a series of four-way power bars connected through a single 13A 230V UK plug. The plug didn't even get warm.

    I've seen a small stage lighting rig - drawing tens of thousands of watts, at least - run off a single UK plug. Those things are insanely over-engineered for the loads that usually go through them.

    That said, yes, looking for more efficient processors is a Good Thing. Even if it would be kinda cool to be able to throw away your case lighting and rely instead on the soft cherry-red glow coming from your heatsink...

  22. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by CamTarn · · Score: 1

    Oh, before anyone tries the stage-lighting thing: it *worked*, but the plug got pretty hot and eventually the circuit breakers tripped. The problem was solved by splitting the load over two plugs on opposite sides of the stage =P

    Ah, the days of helping out with school stage tech. I still don't think the music dept. has forgiven me for blowing up two of their (old, crappy, faulty-but-not-diagnosed-until-they-failed) PA amps in one night...

  23. Better idea by Xerxes2695 · · Score: 0

    Or, use propane for a cleaner, easier transisting at the push of a button.....

  24. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by child_of_mercy · · Score: 1

    well here in australia we already use 240V for everything.

    and then we have three phase for serious stuff...

    Oh and 16amp plugs for real servers...

    hmmm well it was a nice idea.

    --
    'There is a Light that never goes out.'
  25. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by spellraiser · · Score: 4, Funny

    Yes, but I still think water cooling is the way to go, personally.

    --
    I hear there's rumors on the Slashdots
  26. 650C or 1202F by NeedleSurfer · · Score: 1

    according to them, if the CPU's are trully to ever reach such temperature we'll need some serious termal isolation in our casing, not for the CPUs, for us.

  27. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by ozbird · · Score: 2, Informative

    The amount of heat being generated by chips does not seem to be decreasing at all ...

    I disagree. I've just upgraded an Athlon XP 1800+ system to an Athlon64 3500+.
    The new box runs around 20 degrees C cooler than the old one at idle and under heavy load; both use the supplied retail AMD heatsinks. I'm not using "Cool 'n Quiet" on the '64; it might take a bit off the idle temperature, but I don't see the point.

  28. Lighter, maybe, smarter, no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The "lighter" bit seems plausable, scince
    they won't have to use as much shielding to
    protect the chip. I don't know how significant
    the "savings" in this area would be though....

  29. Is that a bag of heat beads... by SalsaDot · · Score: 1

    ...or did that new supercomputer finally arrive??

  30. Re:Well... by gmby · · Score: 1

    Yeah and I bet that "Magic Smoke" makes for a tasty steak!

    --

    --
    I don't want a pickle; I just want a Motor-Cycle! A four foot cop arrived with a five foot gun!
  31. Steve Jobs it coming! by ArcticCelt · · Score: 5, Funny

    Steve Jobs when asked what's next for the iPod:

    "You know, our next big step is we want it to make toast," Jobs answered. "I want to brown my bagels when I'm listening to my music."

    Damn Steve, again, he saw this charcoal technology coming before anybody. :)

    --

    Yahh, hiii haaaaa! -Major Kong, from Dr. Strangelove
    1. Re:Steve Jobs it coming! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The most recent thing I saw for the ipod was a site that was giving them away, free. They require you to sign up with a 'free' offer (music, book, movie clue, etc.) and get five others to do the same. They are paid a bounty by those companies for the people they get to sign up.

      http://www.freeipods.com/default.aspx?referer=8309 944

      They are also doing it with LCD displays
      http://www.freeflatscreens.com/default.aspx?refere r=8353569

  32. What does silicon carbide have to do with a BBQ? by Jason1729 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Silicon carbide is a very hard, brittle material with a very high melting point commonly used to make crucibles and high speed saw blades and drill bits.

    Comparing this to charcol is like saying that Carbon Monoxide is the same thing as Oxygen because CO contains oxygen.

    Jason

  33. Re:What does silicon carbide have to do with a BBQ by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

    Yeah, it took a while for me to figure it out as well.

    --
    Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  34. intended for extreme conditions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    from the article:

    Devices built with the rugged material would not require cooling and other protections that add size, weight and cost to traditional silicon electronics in power systems, jet engines, rockets, wireless transmitters and other equipment exposed to harsh environments.

    So you see, besides that it is nearly as hard as diamond and can survive the temperatures of re-entry into the Earth's atmosphere, they want use it to replace silicon electronics that are used in more stressful environments. Although I suppose that the over-clockers should rejoice.

    1. Re:intended for extreme conditions by sydres · · Score: 1

      well pcb does not take that much heat to melt so I am personaly a little afraid to run this type of chip in any way without good cooling

  35. All this silly stuff, but by panurge · · Score: 5, Informative
    Silicon carbide and diamond both have significant potential use as power semiconductors. Forget CPUs, think I/O. Think smaller power supplies, smaller audio drivers, more rugged automotive systems, and, ultimately, being able to shrink robotics controllers as a next step to producing very small robots. If a robot's motors are running at 80C, you want the power semis to be able to handle that. Furthermore, a lot of possible fuel cell designs run at fairly high temperature and, again, you want the electronics to survive the environment without too much cooling.

    There are also huge potential benefits for rad-hard communications satellites, where cooling is a major problem (radiation only.)

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    Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
    1. Re:All this silly stuff, but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Power electronics are rated for junction temperature of 150C max already. Chips are rated for 105C or 125C max these days. (Mil run stuff at 105C junction max for high reliability) Where is your number of 80C coming from?

      I do not want hotter running power supplies or audio drivers because the rest of the parts in the same box are not good at high temperature. Hot parts produces shot noise and are not good for audio. Hot electrolytic caps are highly unreliable and can dry out a lot faster hence shortening thier life.

    2. Re:All this silly stuff, but by TheRealStaunch · · Score: 0

      Speaking of diamonds... Hopefully soon, they'll be cheap. There was a Wired article that was coverd on /. a while back (not sure when) about creating diamonds by microwaving natural gas to make diamond in layers. It looked quite promising. Anybody know if anything else has happened with this research?

      --

      -- Get
  36. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by chris_eineke · · Score: 0
    How long until your PC puts out enough heat that it would be economical to re-use that heat for [...] winter heating?
    I already do.
    How long until we need special 240V plugs like electric stoves have for power?
    Ever heard of the other side of the Atlantic ocean (marked 'There'll be dragons' on American maps)? Germany uses 220V/240V outlets for everything.
    --
    "All you have to do is be fragile and grateful. So stay the underdog." Chuck Palahniuk, Choke
  37. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by jerde · · Score: 1

    You're lucky. With our lowly 120V supplies here, 2000 Watts is about as much as you can ever expect on a single circuit. (theoretically 2400W on a 20A circuit, but once you're pulling close to 20A, the wires and cords themselves start to draw enough in heating that it adds up)

    On the other hand, I have accidentally touched live AC wires a few times (and even stuck my finger in a light socket as a kid) and had relatively minor effects from it. I'd imagine 220/240 has a bit more of a kick... :)

    - Peter

    --
    INsigNIFICANT
  38. Sounds like big dollars by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 1
    Growing the crystals in a multi-step process sounds like a very expensive process. Probably useful for somehot chips though.

    So why the hell do we need hot chips anyway? ARM and MIPS devices run cool. Why does x86 have to be hot? Indeed why the hell are we still wedded to these power hungry devices?

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
    1. Re:Sounds like big dollars by oojah · · Score: 1

      Not all silicon is used in processors.

      --
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    2. Re:Sounds like big dollars by budgenator · · Score: 1

      The main problem is getting the required purity, silicon based chips involve a multi-step process process to manufacture the substrate now. Basical they take very pure silica sand (SiO2), and purify it as much as possible chemicaly, Reduce it to remove the oxygen, melt it, then extract it by growing a single crystal. Then crystal of Si is then heated to just short of the melting point and then, moving it through a electric induction heater a small portion of the crystal melts, and any remaining impurities tend to stay in the molten zone, leaving the rest of the crystal purer. After that its a process of repeating the purification until the required purity is acheive, that's how one of the most common substances on the planet becomes one of the most expensive.

      Now consider this, each device in a computer introduces ineficiencies, the more parts the more waste, the more computers, the more waste so if one SiC based computer can do the work of 5 Si based computers, the overal effiency tends to go up; now imagine a Beowolf cluster of these, with only 25% of the nodes.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    3. Re:Sounds like big dollars by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1
      "ARM and MIPS devices run cool. Why does x86 have to be hot?

      Different markets. X86 is under extreme competitive pressure to produce the fastest possible processors in the medium price range. This means more complicated circuitry to produce the same function. (As a trivial example, compare a simple adder to a look-ahead-carry adder.) The complication adds heat.

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    4. Re:Sounds like big dollars by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 1
      It makes a mockery of "Green PCs" though. In the last 18 years that I have had various PCs the power usage has gone up from ~100W to ~350W for the box. CRT monitor power has gone up too and only switching to an LCD has improved things.

      A machine built with 8x ARM cores would have as much grunt as a P4, but cost less and would use only a fraction of the power.

      --
      Engineering is the art of compromise.
  39. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by mabinogi · · Score: 1

    Yup, and exactly the same thing with the previous generation.

    A friend has a 1.2Ghz thunderbird Athlon that runs pretty much consistently at 60 degrees, no matter what you do, wheras my Athlon XP1700+ with stock heatsink barely ever crosses 40. We have the same case, and I've never bothered with case fans or hard drive fans...there's just the CPU fan....

    --
    Advanced users are users too!
  40. It's already here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Typical of Apple - I think the Powerbook was a prototype.

    Steve Jobs & George Forman have a plot to: BAM! Knock Out The Fat! ..of Apple users with their Portable Toasty Titanium Lap Grills. (Or would that be the iGrill?) Smell somethin' cookin? Yep, it's you!

    Put two of them back to back and you could easily cook a steak, I tell ya.

  41. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by akadruid · · Score: 1

    I can add another apocryphal story - my 1400 Thunderbird used to run at 60-70, while my 2500 Barton runs comfortably sub 40.

    So its true, they are getting cooler.

    --
    "Those who cast the votes decide nothing; those who count the votes decide everything." (attrib. Joseph Stalin)
  42. This is new? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A lot of early radio diodes were made out of carborundum (SiC) and charcoal. So I'm pretty sure the idea of SiC semiconductors has been around for the better part of a century. The navy used SiC diodes since the junction didn't break apart easily like with galena (PbS).

  43. What about electrical properties? by Hank+the+Lion · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's very nice that SiC can withstand high temperatures and is very hard, but are these the most important features of a semiconductor material?
    I would be more interested in band gap voltage, electron/hole mobility etc.
    Who needs a chip that can run hot when it cannot run fast?
    Maybe for specialized hardened aplications like space, but I don't see these being used for mainstream applications.

    1. Re:What about electrical properties? by Epi-man · · Score: 1

      Well, SiC has a wide range for bandgap, 2.2 to 3.25 eV, which is much less stable vs. temperature than Si. This is one of its "problems" for ICs. The other is the difficulty in making large wafers. The huge benefit of its large bandgap is long minority carrier lifetimes....think standard RAM cells that can hold their charge for hundreds of years. The real focus these days for SiC has been discrete power devices since they can function with a much higher junction temperature than silicon devices. Several of my friends from Purdue were in Dr. Cooper's group working with this stuff. Hope that helps a bit. If you want to know more, head here.

    2. Re:What about electrical properties? by Thomas+Shaddack · · Score: 1
      Who needs a chip that can run hot when it cannot run fast?

      Not all electronics is high-speed logic. Think about high-power thyristors and diodes.

    3. Re:What about electrical properties? by freqres · · Score: 1

      Throw SCR's and TRIAC's in that list as well. I see this affecting high power power-switching and analog control circuitry much more than high speed digital logic and CPU's. Depending on the frequency capabilities of SiC, maybe high power RF circuitry as well.

      --
      Rampant Ninja related crimes these days...Whitehouse is not the exception
  44. The BBC article by Mixel · · Score: 3, Informative

    linky

  45. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by otuz · · Score: 1

    Not really, I have had some 240V kicks and just got an uncanny buzzing feeling.
    Human conductivity is quite low.

  46. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by oojah · · Score: 1

    This isn't exactly answering your post, but don't forget that there are other uses for silicon than processors. Think industrial power switching, high power drives.

    Cheers,

    Roger

    --
    Do you have any better hostages?
  47. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by Neo-Rio-101 · · Score: 1

    All we need is some way to convert heat directly into electricity.... dream on I guess.

    --
    READY.
    PRINT ""+-0
  48. U lot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Ha you lot, you think this will be used for CPU's.

    It wont. Silicon/Germanium is fastest you can get at teh mo (until they can dope diamond)

    SiC will be used in hi-temp areas (eg aircraft engines) or where they want it to run hotter to up the current handling (ie power electronics)

    at the mo I am limited to 800A at 1200V for an IGBT and that is 8IGBT die in parallel.the die is limited to 100A at 125C.

    When I get SiC IGBT I will be able to pass 800A thorugh a single die and let the die heat up to 300C.

    This will mean that expensive heavy heatsinks will be able to shrink

    SiC will NOT be use for hi speed CPU!!!

    1. Re:U lot by IBX · · Score: 1

      They *can* dope diamond - both P and N - doped version have been produced already. (Boron-doped diamonds are beatifuly blue). The problem is that there is no good method for growing large diamond monocrystals. Apollo Diamonds has been developing flat diamond growth by chemical vapor deposition exactly for this purpose but their largest pieces are only few mm wide.

  49. update your calendar by rozz · · Score: 2, Funny
    "The researchers say that currently only a 3" wafer has been produced and that a marketable product is at least six years away."

    duplicate /. article incoming ... estimated period of arrival: 6 years later .. please update your calendar for Aug2010

    --
    "There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
  50. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by dwhitman · · Score: 2, Interesting
    The amount of heat being generated by chips does not seem to be decreasing at all, and this material appears to be produced to be "heat resistant" instead of more efficient.

    Heat resistance isn't the point -- current IC's don't melt, they get trashed via difusion processes that will still be there in SiC.

    The advantage of SiC is substantially enhanced (2x) thermal conductivity vs. Si. This makes it easier to get heat out of the chip, allowing it to run cooler at any given heat production rate.

  51. The magic smoke and the charcoal filter by dapyx · · Score: 0

    It is common knowledge that once you let the magic smoke out, electronics never work quite the same as before. Now, with the charcoal filter, we won't know when electronics get broken. :-)

    --
    I'm sorry, the number you have dialed is an imaginary number. Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and dial again.
  52. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by ChadN · · Score: 1

    The voltage doesn't matter; it's the wattage. So, you probably won't need more than 120V for future machines, but you may need better wiring so that more amps can be carried to it without blowing a fuse (or lighting your house on fire).

    --
    "It's overkill, of course. But you can never have too much overkill." - Anonymous Slashdot Coward
  53. Cooler != less heat produced by EnglishTim · · Score: 2, Informative

    Just because your CPU runs cooler does not neccesarily mean it generates less heat. To do a proper test, use the heatsink supplied for use with your Athlon 1800+ and pop it on your Athlon64...

    It's possible all you've proved is that coolers are getting better quicker than processors are getting hotter...

    1. Re:Cooler != less heat produced by Ruediger · · Score: 1

      Also, the A64 has the "Cool and Quiet" tecnology, which can throttle down the processor and reduce the voltage when the CPU is not being stressed.

      --
      "...personality goes a long way."
  54. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by markom · · Score: 1
    How long until we need special 240V plugs like electric stoves have for power?


    You mean thos same plugs we have been using in Europe for years now? :-)
  55. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by City+Jim+3000 · · Score: 1

    And we use 380V special plugs instead of measly 240V... you sissies!

  56. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's called a thermoelecric couple.

  57. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I already use my pc (athlon XP 2000+) for heating my room in winter, in fact I turn it off during the night so it wont get too hot...

  58. Re:Charcoal? Isn`t a bit hard to saw wafer? by radionacht · · Score: 1

    Or how to produce the wafer than? Growing the silicion carbide on other material? Rob

  59. The good news, the bad news.... by mikael · · Score: 4, Funny

    The good news, your graphics card can be overclocked to 2 Terahertz, and still remain operational at over 650C.

    The bad news, is that the aluminum casing of your PC will melt at this temperature, so your PC will need te be built from titanium.

    --
    Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    1. Re:The good news, the bad news.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the bright side, you won't need any additional lighting to make your PC glow in the dark.

  60. Yep, it's not for processors for a while yet... by argent · · Score: 1

    If you google for silicon carbide transistors just about all the hits are for microwave and power applications.

  61. Re:What does silicon carbide have to do with a BBQ by sploo22 · · Score: 1

    Seriously, this is even worse than confusing aluminum and alumina!

    --
    Karma: Segmentation fault (tried to dereference a null post)
  62. Great... by confused+one · · Score: 1

    Now the chip's will get hot enough to ignite combustibles (paper, plastic insulation, dust) and still operate. Then you'll cut your hand on the edge of the SiC chip as you're trying to put out the fire...

  63. organics possible? by mattr · · Score: 1

    If I remember correctly diamond chips are interesting because they can easily bind to organic molecules. I believe I saw a sample chip made by some students and Sumitomo is into it too.

    Does silicon carbide have any such properties? (i.e. anything besides heat resistance?)

    The flip side of course is for high temperature operation which I think is a bit scary, maybe the chip itself can handle it but what about the stuff next to it? I would rather have lower temperature circuits. As it is only a very tiny volume of the space in your computer can be said to be nanoscale microelectronics.

  64. Read the post again by panurge · · Score: 2, Informative
    80C is a realistic maximum case temperature for DC motors, which I used as an example. If the environment reaches 80C, what do you think the junction temperatures of the transistors will be?

    Also, please note that the junction temperatures you quote are maxima. You will not get good life at high temperatures with silicon but, more importantly, the ability to handle pulses and voltage drops as junction temperature rises. I suggest you look at the SOAR curves for a few power devices to see what I mean.

    As for the rest of your remarks, it's clear you are not a serious power electronics designer. No-one says the low level stages have to run that hot (though anyone who has listened to a good tube amp would probably argue that you are exaggerating the importance of shot noise). The big benefit of higher junction temperatures is that heatsinks, in particular, can be smaller, especially if the hot air is vented straight out of the casing. This makes the overall size of the equipment smaller.

    Also, don't forget that power amplification is not synonymous with hi-fi. There are many applications for power audio devices (PA systems, for instance) that require considerable audio power but only moderate quality, and the applications for compact RF devices are continually expanding. For instance, one possible goal for a high power SiC device would be a replacement for the magnetrons of microwave ovens, possibly even creating a market for small solar or wind powered microwave ovens that would be useful both for backpackers and for 3rd world countries.

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    1. Re:Read the post again by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      Also, don't forget that power amplification is not synonymous with hi-fi. There are many applications for power audio devices...

      One that comes to mind is servo control. I've seen some whoppin' big 'audio' amps used to control servos and solenoids in as part of a position control system.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
  65. Still not the solution by Moraelin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yes, silicon carbide and water cooling will get the heat out of the CPU faster.

    The problem still remains that a metric buttload of heat is produced, and that it comes out of the electricity bill. Sometimes twice: in the summer you also pay for the air conditioning, since that shiny new CPU is heating the room some more.

    I think it's getting ludicrious.

    The Prescott is already over 100 W, and Intel apparently plans dual core versions. Whoppee for 200+ W CPUs. NVidia 6800 Ultras are rated for 120 W, and they're hyping SLI setups now. Yep, _two_ graphics cards, if just 120W worth of hot air blowing off the back of the case wasn't enough.

    Add hard drives, motherboard, and the PSUs own inefficiency, and you're already looking at 1000W worth of heat for the whole computer. That's already like a space heater.

    In fact, go ahead and turn a space heater on near your desk in the summer, and you've got a pretty good approximation of what the next generation of computers promises to be like. Now picture some 4 of them in the same room, at the office.

    And it's raising exponentially. Carbide and water cooling will only help them get further along that curve.

    And I'll be damned if I'm thrilled at the prospect.

    This also brings the problem of even more fans. Even with water cooling, you then have to get the heat out of the water. It still means fans. More heat will just mean more fans, bigger fans, or faster fans. Or all the above.

    And I'm not thrilled at the prospect of the return of the noisy computer either. I can jolly well do without the machine sounding like a jumbo jet. Especially when I'm watching a DVD or such, I can do without having to turn the volume sky high just to be able to hear what they're saying. And at the office I can do without four noisy hovercrafts in the same room.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:Still not the solution by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      The problem still remains that a metric buttload of heat is produced, and that it comes out of the electricity bill. Sometimes twice: in the summer you also pay for the air conditioning, since that shiny new CPU is heating the room some more.

      On the other hand, in the winter, every watt of heat produced by your CPU is a watt of heat you don't have to produce with natural gas, baseboard heaters, etc. So over the course of a year, it may even out.

      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    2. Re:Still not the solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      This also brings the problem of even more fans. Even with water cooling, you then have to get the heat out of the water. It still means fans. More heat will just mean more fans, bigger fans, or faster fans. Or all the above.

      Actually, maybe not. Remember the difference between "heat" and "temperature".

      For example- heat transfer away from the CPU by radiation is very small- but is proportional of the CPU temperature raised to the 4th power.

      Also, passive convection removes heat at a greater rate when the temperature difference between an object and its surroundings is greater. When a CPU isn't much warmer than its surroundings, you've got to blow on it with a fan to keep its equilibrium temp below its operating threshold.

      What this adds up to is the idea that if you have a processor that can survive and operate at a few hundred degrees C, then it gets easier to keep cool. Does that make sense?

    3. Re:Still not the solution by yourmom16 · · Score: 2, Funny
      The problem still remains that a metric buttload of heat is produced

      I've never been able to figure out how many libraries of congress a metric buttload is.

      --
      "We have got to make Stan understand the importance of voting, because he'll definitely vote for our guy." - South Park
    4. Re:Still not the solution by Wtcher · · Score: 1

      That's a neat idea. Flying computers. You could them all up together and cut down on your transit costs too!

      --
      ----- Wtcher Dragon, UDIC
  66. Re:What does silicon carbide have to do with a BBQ by Hockney+Twang · · Score: 1

    Oh, I think the reference might have been to the heat, like, I can grill meat on my pc case because my CPU runs fine at several hundred degrees.

  67. Re:Charcoal? Isn`t a bit hard to saw wafer? by DarkMan · · Score: 3, Informative

    Nah, you just use a diamond saw. Same as for the silicon wafers. It's conceptually the same thing as a very thin diamond tipped grinding wheel, and it grinds a cut through the material. You can also use a diamond encrusted wire as a saw, like, erm, this one *holds one up*, but they are much slower, and only really good as hand saws, or for chopping thin sheets [0].

    It's going to be a little slower, as SiC is about twice as hard as silicon, but that's not going to slow it down that much. Diamond saws are also used to chop up boules of sapphire and ruby, which are of similar hardness to SiC (a little softer), and also diamond (harder), so it's no big techical problem.

    Or, a laser. A nice big excimer laser would slice it neater than a diamond saw. With the improved surface texture after cutting, the decrease is polishing coupled with the increase in hardness might make it worth while. Probably not, though.

    [0] I use my saw for cutting rocks for lapidary purposes, principly quatrz of various sorts.

  68. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by budgenator · · Score: 1

    They do they are called thermo-couples and operate on the peltier effect.
    Take two different wires twist them together into two junctions, break one wire put in a meter; then heat one junction, cool the other and electrical current flows. the peltier cooler work by adding current which causes one junction to warm, and the other to cool.

    You should be able to take a peltier cooler, heat one side and cool the other and get some electricity out of it. I imagine the efficency is pathetic, but its just waste heat anyways. To get anything useful you need a lot of junctions which makes them expensive. An example is a car's engine loses about 30% to waste heat, so turning this into electricity would probably boast MPG by about 20-25%, unfortunately it's just too expensive.

    --
    Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
  69. Full circle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, finally, we can use semiconductor integrated circuits to heat the cathode of our vacuum tubes! In ten o'clock news: "Vacuum Tubes Integrate on Chips".

  70. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by Enigma_Man · · Score: 1

    Honestly, I do that as it is today! During the winter, I'm a cheap miser, and keep the rest of the house at about 50. I keep my computer in my room and always keep the door closed, and it'll reach a balmy 70 degrees just from the PC.

    -Jesse

    --
    Nothing says "unprofessional job" like wrinkles in your duct tape.
  71. Can't you already buy SiC products? by Ewann · · Score: 1

    I don't understand the distinction between what this group has done and what you can buy today from companies like cree. You can today buy high-temp silicon carbide products. Is this article about a new way to make SiC wafers?

    1. Re:Can't you already buy SiC products? by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1
      The new process improves defect density by a claimed factor of 100. This means that it's practical to make ICs with an area 100X larger than previously.

      Also, consider that defects that would kill a digital IC might not harm a SiC LED (Cree's main product.) Who cares if a small portion of an LED is dark?

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    2. Re:Can't you already buy SiC products? by Ewann · · Score: 1

      Thanks- that makes sense. Defect density is indeed an important factor. Cree might be getting a better handle on this since they are now offering SiC diodes, but it's still a much simpler process than anything you'd use for ICs. An improvement of a factor of 100 would be great.

  72. BBQ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OMGWTFBBQ!!!111~

  73. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's not quite that bad, I'm on 120V and I run a heater (on low or medium), 2 desktops, 2 laptops, 2 17 and 1 15" CRT's, lamps speakers and clocks and various random small things on one outlet, and it's the ungrounded kind, wired many decades ago. On the other hand, I had to add up the amperage everything uses and calculate loads on each side of the outlet, and still melted a 2-3 prong adapter when the heater got set to high. Not to mention what would happen if I ever needed the ground someday.

  74. isotopically purified silicon by pfdietz · · Score: 1

    If thermal conductivity is all that important, is anyone commercially producing isotopically purified silicon wafers? This stuff has better thermal conductivity (phonons tend to scatter off mass irregularities).

    http://www.newsfactor.com/perl/story/20312.html

    "His next step: to combine isotopically purified silicon 28 with isotopically purified carbon to form ultra-hard silicon carbide."

    1. Re:isotopically purified silicon by pfdietz · · Score: 1

      To answer my own question: Isonics is selling 28Si epi wafers. They are not yet selling 28Si bulk wafers (too expensive, I bet.)

  75. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by MoP030 · · Score: 1

    Actually this one would decrease the heat generated, as SiC is a better conductor, especially at higher frequencies. The nature article is a bit more interesting if you sometimes like to RT(F)A.

    But then again the SiC chips will be pushed to their limit eventually, where they will be glowing red or something.

    --
    the most sexp i get is my paren-mode.
  76. Ask /.: did we *all* fail chemistry? by mwood · · Score: 1

    First someone sends in a story while under the impression that aluminum == alumina, now we have silicon carbide == charcoal. Somebody sound the gong, please.

  77. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by freqres · · Score: 1

    Voltage does matter. For the same power, you can double the voltage and halve the current (P=I*E, as long as the load doesn't have high reactance). Doubling the voltage to 240V doesn't dramatically require more wire insulation but halving the current can have dramatic effects on the gauge size wire required (and wire price).

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    Rampant Ninja related crimes these days...Whitehouse is not the exception
  78. Re:What does silicon carbide have to do with a BBQ by freqres · · Score: 1

    Where does aluminium fit in?

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    Rampant Ninja related crimes these days...Whitehouse is not the exception
  79. Re:What does silicon carbide have to do with a BBQ by freqres · · Score: 1

    Who will be the first to buy the new AMD Easy Bake Oven (tm)?

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    Rampant Ninja related crimes these days...Whitehouse is not the exception
  80. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by PoPRawkZ · · Score: 1

    Here in Phoenix Arizona, I have to run my air conditioning quite hard to keep my apartment 22-24C when my two Athlon 1800+ with two 19" CRT's are running. What does this mean for my processors? They usually run at 75-80C Thats pretty damn harsh. With all my equipment off, my A/C only kicks on maybe twice an hour. I'd have to guess that those machines put off about half a ton of heat per hour (6,000 btu's).

    --
    peace,
    -Grokent
  81. Venus landers! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That means that long-duration Venus surface rovers could be built. The chief problem has been keeping the electronics on landers cool enough for long enough to do any meaningful science.

    By putting them in Dewars, we've been able to keep them running in the tens to hundreds of minutes.

    With silicon carbide electronics, we might be able to put -rovers- on the surface!

    The surface of Venus tends to be at about 900* fahrenheit.

  82. The advantages of SiC over Si by devinjones · · Score: 1
    What are the advantages of SiC over Si?
    Google to the rescue
    First hit: Silicon Carbide High Temperature Integrated Electronics and Sensors
    SiC-based electronics and sensors can operate in hostile environments (600 C = 1112 F GLOWING RED HOT!) where conventional silicon-based electronics (limited to 350 C) cannot function. Silicon carbide's ability to function in high temperature, high power, and high radiation conditions will enable large performance enhancments to a wide variety of systems and applications.

    It goes on to show examples of enhancements like lightweight sensors that could operate inside a jet engine or rad-hard electronics for the same weight and specs as Si.

    1. Re:The advantages of SiC over Si by multiplexo · · Score: 1
      Perhaps this will lead to computers that are built like modern tube amps. You'll have windows in the front of the box, but not so you can see your neon light case mod, but so you can see the warm glow off of the CPU, RAM and chipsets.

      --
      cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
  83. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    my room is toasty in the winter... summer is another story.

  84. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Reagardless of how the power is delivered to homes, it won't be necessary to have 240V for the computer itself to operate. And how likely is it that we will start to have 240V outlets for our computers (in the U.S.)? It is much more likely that the computers will just stay within the max wattage spec for current 120V outlets.

    ie. I was just pointing out (as did you) that Voltage != Power.

  85. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by Carnildo · · Score: 1

    The heatsink supplied with the XP1800 was horrible. A tiny all-aluminum sink with a high-speed 60x15 fan just doesn't cut it for cooling that CPU. I've heard that the 2200+ and beyond have decent stock heatsinks, but I haven't verified that myself.

    --
    "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
  86. Home on the Range by spamania · · Score: 1


    Does this mean that in six years, Cowboy Neal'll be able to run a Longhorn machine with a mesquite-scented CPU?

    --
    My other .sig is a troll.
  87. Re:What does silicon carbide have to do with a BBQ by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 1

    Down the throats of British people. See, the extra 'i' gets stuck in there cross-wise and they choke to death.

    --

    ---
    Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
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  88. don't understand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What the hell does this have to do with charcoal?

  89. Desktops are not the primary concern by viral-contagion · · Score: 1

    I think, from RTFA, that the point of this new material is not to allow desktop chips to run as hot as they want. The point is to allow chips and electronics to be used in extreme conditions, like space, etc., where temperatures get very high (thinking dayside on Mars, for example).

    No matter how efficient you make your CPU, the more voltage you pump through it to get it to cycle faster and faster, the more watts it will dissipate. There is no (at this time) perfect conductor that is feasible for CPU's that won't produce heat when current is passed through it.

  90. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    and then we have three phase for serious stuff...

    You have three phase power supplied to your home?

    Otherwise, I am not impressed.

  91. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by Morphine007 · · Score: 1

    try feeling the top of your monitor..... you can warm poptarts pretty well with most CRTs... trust me, I did it on a course once ;)

    --
    Oh god, that woman is John Romero!
  92. lab where I work by lymph22 · · Score: 1

    Some folks over here in the same building where I work are commercializing SiC They also have a good bit of doc on their site. http://www.semisouth.com/

  93. Do any current processors/computers have... by hurfy · · Score: 1

    a btu rating like the old mini-computers did?

    Rack servers maybe ?

    Our old Wang Minicomputer had a btu rating listed (5 digits i think!) as well as power consumption (1950w at startup!! and only for the hard disk part!). I am not sure it wasnt a more efficient heater than my heater since it went down to 900w or so after the drive got up to speed :)

  94. no win situation by Orthogonal+Jones · · Score: 1


    I thought silicon had higher carrier mobility than diamond (carbon), and that SiC would have a mobility in between.

    Therefore, yeah, it would take more heat, but it would be slower. As it's already been said, this might be OK for a space app or power app. But I doubt it makes sense for computers.

    Also, combo semiconductors like this (or, say, GaAs) are subject to the antisite defect -- which they're saying is lower than ever in this case. However, for silicon, it doesn't exist at all.

  95. Nature's report... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Original news source comes from Nature'sreport...

  96. Re:What does silicon carbide have to do with a BBQ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Because of these morons.

    They think that aluminium is an ok name for alumina. It's the same debate.

  97. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by NateTech · · Score: 1

    Yes, we prefer transmission line efficiency and less death by accidental electrocutions. Silly us.

    Not to mention you didn't say whether or not you're also pulling more CURRENT with that extra voltage. If not your sissy 380V isn't worth the hype, cause E=I*R, ya know.

    (And of course, I'm leaving out power factor calculations, which have to be done for AC power also...)

    Generally what I'm saying here is - you're trying to make a joke without doing the math, which probably just shows ignorance of how electricity really works, and isn't all that funny to people paying attention and thinking.

    But hell, this is Slashdot... nevermind, no one here's thinking. Why would I think THAT?

    I guess I'm not thinking.

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    +++OK ATH
  98. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by NateTech · · Score: 1

    Move out of the desert then.

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    +++OK ATH
  99. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by NateTech · · Score: 1

    Oh good God... then I type the equation wrong.

    Guess now I'm the moron.

    Good night!

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    +++OK ATH
  100. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by City+Jim+3000 · · Score: 1

    Well actually we use three-phase 400/230V for our stoves, washing machines etc. (but you usually can run them on 220V also).

  101. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by freqres · · Score: 1

    I can see building codes being updated in the near -mid future (15-25 years) that will require more outlets per wall and adding more 240 outlets in new homes (not just in the laundry room and kitchen, maybe 1 or 2 in every room). Most of the world already runs at 220-240V for all household appliances. Also with copper wire getting more expensive, it makes sense to run higher voltages instead of larger gauge wire or more wire runs in the home (aluminum wire is not a realistic option either, the stuff sucks to work with because to get the same current capability the wire is too damn thick). Cars are going to higher voltages in the next few years, I think newly built houses will also go that way, just in a longer time frame.

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    Rampant Ninja related crimes these days...Whitehouse is not the exception
  102. Re:Finally... Heat can be put to good use by child_of_mercy · · Score: 1

    three phase up to 200 amps is allowed without needing to notify the electricity company.

    --
    'There is a Light that never goes out.'