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Electromagnetic Suspension System

Posted by michael on from the low-rider dept.

chuckgrosvenor writes "Every automotive suspension has two goals: passenger comfort and vehicle control. Unfortunately, these goals are in conflict. Two much comfort, and the car rolls and pitches a lot, too much control and you feel every bump. BOSE has found the happy medium by using electromagnetic motors, power amplifiers, & computer control algorithms to even out the road, while still feeling connected to it. Check the quicktime movies to see two different cars stay level while they go through cornering exercises." Reader gatekeep writes "Amar Bose, founder of the Bose Corporation and MIT professor and alumnus, has recently unveiled a new electromagnetic car suspension system. It's said to have taken 24 years to develop. There's only minor technical details available so far, but the author of this piece describes seeing the system allow the test vehicle to jump over obstacles in its path!"

73 of 309 comments (clear)

  1. Amazing by crtfdgk · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Despite how critical I am of developments like this, I have to say that those videos and the pictures are amazing. This technology could actually be implemented, it seems ready by the look and tone of the article, and thats pretty rare on Slashdot. Most newer technologies featured on /. always seems unlikely and full of holes, but this one seems a lot more solid.

    Like the saying goes, a picture is worth a thousand words. I'd say the video more like a million. And those pictures show quite a bit. Plus the over-exposed headlights picture is a pretty cool way to demonstrate within a picture. But of course the video shows it all. And i think its amazing.

    Just my two cents.

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    1. Re:Amazing by AKAImBatman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      1. Why is the parent redundant? It's the first post for crying out loud!

      2. Is it just me, or do the "normal" cars look like they've got lousy shocks? Sure, some "dive" is to expected when taking a tight corner, but these things practically hit the ground! In the "Demo Course" video, the cars don't even look like they're going that fast. Maybe 30-40 MPH tops.

      That being said, the suspension system is impressive. The balance of the Bose equipped car never wavers. Unless I miss my guess, the thing looks gyroscope stabilized. Combined with powered shocks with near-instant response time, I see little reason why this couldn't work. Kudos to Bose!

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    2. Re:Amazing by fakeplasticusername · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Most newer technologies featured on /. always seems unlikely and full of holes, but this one seems a lot more solid.
      I think its partially because it isn't among the usual triumvurate of slashdot stories regarding technology; power generation, revolutionary computer tech, and bio/nano tech. If this site was more slanted to automotive news, we would have heard about this story sometime last year, the details would be spotty, and the evidence would be missing. Slashdot will usually report auto news if it involves some part of the triumvurate (nano-tech coating, hybrid cars, electric cars, etc).

      Not that i'm bashing automotive news, i'm just offering an explanation.
    3. Re:Amazing by chuckgrosvenor · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually you only heard about it today, because today was the first day it appeared on the corporate website. A friend of mine at Bose has been talking about this ever since he started working there. It looks pretty cool, but the Boston Globe reported it might cost around $20K US. I also got the impression that high speed (over 60 mph) performance wasn't going to be as perfect.

      Still, if it makes down to the cheaper vehicles in five or ten years, it might make everyday driving far more pleasant. Certainly the first major improvement in suspension in several decades.

      --
      ChuckyG
    4. Re:Amazing by aspx · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I drive a car with an air spring suspension (instead of traditional coil spring). Air suspension has a lot of advantages, like load leveling and the softest spring rate for a given load, which translates to a smooth ride. For these benefits, I pay increased maintanance costs. The air springs require periodic replacement, as do the mechanical and electronic components of the system. I recently payed $600 for a repair.

      Electromagnetic suspension is a step forward for ride quality, but it will come at a price. You'll have to decide if the benefits are worth the increased costs. With the marketing genius of Bose, I predict this system will soon debut on flagship luxury cars.

    5. Re:Amazing by jcr · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It looks pretty cool, but the Boston Globe reported it might cost around $20K US.

      VCRs used to cost over five grand, and that was in 1973 dollars.

      Once you start building anything in million-lot quantities, the prices plummet.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
  2. Like by OverlordQ · · Score: 5, Insightful

    the rest of Bose things it will probably come WAY overpriced.

    --
    Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
    1. Re:Like by 1000101 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Overpriced is in the eye of the beholder. I have a Bose Wave CD-Radio that most of my friends think I paid way too much for. I think I got a great piece of hardware that no other company can currently match. I guess you could say the same thing about the iPods.

    2. Re:Like by DAldredge · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What is so special about it?

    3. Re:Like by Hadlock · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Have you ever plunked one down in someone's living room and turned the volume up loud? Go get one of those "try our bose wave radio out for free" jobbies and do a comparative test between the wave radio and your radio alarm clock at the same volume. A bose wave radio + ipod make the ultimate in dorm room stereo technology :)

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
  3. Here He Comes! by elmegil · · Score: 5, Funny
    the author of this piece describes seeing the system allow the test vehicle to jump over obstacles in it's path!

    Mach 5! Yeah!

    --
    7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
  4. 24 years to develope by the_2nd_coming · · Score: 2, Informative

    I recall hearing about this back in the very early 90's. they made it sound like they had a product and in about a year or two you would see them in the Big 3 cars.... still waiting.

    --



    I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
  5. *sigh* by TWX · · Score: 3, Funny


    How long before someone decides to ask Slashdot how to add this to an existing car...

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    1. Re:*sigh* by stubear · · Score: 4, Funny

      Add this to an existing car? They'll be asking how they cn make this themselves from off the shelf parts and old stereo systems, all running Linux of course.

  6. First Suspension by paul248 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Here's a pretty cool video about the brand new suspension systems of 1938:
    http://www.archive.org/details-db.php?mediatype=mo vies&identifier=OvertheW1938

  7. Old news by pyrrhonist · · Score: 4, Funny
    In one final display that left onlookers speechless yesterday, the company showed how the suspension system can be coaxed into jumping -- yes, jumping -- over obstacles in its path.

    This is nothing new. The Mach 5 had this in 1966.

    This "new" system doesn't even have a kid and a monkey in the trunk, let alone make the "ch-ch-ch-ch" sound.

    --
    Show me on the doll where his noodly appendage touched you.
    1. Re:Old news by Mr.+Hankey · · Score: 2, Funny

      It's not _that_ hard to get a kid, and the monkey's an add-on option these days.

      http://trunkmonkeyad.com/

      --
      GPL: Free as in will
  8. I wonder if... by shfted! · · Score: 5, Funny

    ... one could route the bass frequency from one's car stereo into the suspension to get that extra bass feel?

    It would sure beat doing the brake-gas tap dance to headbang in sequence with the music while driving :D

    --
    He who laughs last is stuck in a time dilation bubble.
    1. Re:I wonder if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      You, sir, are ghetto.

    2. Re:I wonder if... by SpookyFish · · Score: 2, Funny

      LOL, there's a teenage memory for sure!

      Although with a 5.0 mustang 'twas just a downshift and gas tap dance, no brake needed... the stereo did need to be loud enough to drown out the rattles tho ;)

  9. Gives New Meaning... by MBCook · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Gives new meaning to the phrase "No highs, no lows... it's Bose" doesn't it.

    I like Bose personally. To bad a system like this would be expensive (at least for a few years untill mass production made it more reasonable). Guess that means that unless I strike it rich and can buy a fancy car that would include this (I assume this would be on BMWs or Mercedes), my car will be bouncing on bumpy roads. I'd love to try driving one though.

    --
    Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
  10. If I had a car with an electromagnetic suspension by loqi · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'd consider driving in Idaho.

    --
    If other reasons we do lack, we swear no one will die when we attack
  11. In suspension terms: Jumping == Bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    You want your tires on the ground at all times. When a tire leaves the ground, you lose control.

    Pitching and yawing can be controlled with proper FBW controls as well as better center-weighted metering.

    This is a gimmick. Not surprising, it is Bose... (Ever taken a look at the inside of their "omni-directional" speaker system? They just face the speaker inwards to create an echo chamber. It does nothing but muffle the actual audio.)

    1. Re:In suspension terms: Jumping == Bad by dopaz · · Score: 5, Insightful

      How did this get modded informative? An infinitely variable damper is not a gimmick. It would be infinitely useful. The demonstration where the car jumps is just showing how much force this suspension system can generate. The real innovation here is that everything is done electronically, whereas older systems used hydraulics. Check out this article for the basics of why this is a good thing: Active Suspension Also, GM's new Cadillac XLR uses an electromagnetic suspension, as well as the forthcoming 6th generation Corvette.

    2. Re:In suspension terms: Jumping == Bad by rale,+the · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Amazing how a comment from someone who obviously hasnt even read the article gets rated +5 informative.
      In one final display that left onlookers speechless yesterday, the company showed how the suspension system can be coaxed into jumping -- yes, jumping -- over obstacles in its path. "Can't you just imagine the kids with this going down Main Street?" laughed Bose, who emphasized the feature will be eliminated before it is sold to customers.
      It's pretty obvious that the jumping thing was just for showing off, the point was made right in the article...
    3. Re:In suspension terms: Jumping == Bad by Temporal+Outcast · · Score: 2

      What the hell? Do you even know a thing about audio systems?

      You need to be able to provide a uniformly distributed frequency response, across an infinite number of harmonics. Not to mention the diffusion fields that're created, relative to positions.

      Just because it looks simple does not mean designing it was.

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  12. This sounds cool... by foxtrot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    From my amateur race car driver's perspective.

    Imagine putting the crew chief in the car-- and basically replacing him with a very small shell script.

    Is the car pushing on entry? Back off the front repulsors a few volts. Dial a volt or two into the back... Adjust wedge on the fly.

    And the sick thing is, you don't even have to make the driver do it. A few sensors on various wheels and currently available computing horsepower and it'll know on its own. A car that dynamically adjusts itself to optimal handling as the weather changes, the track temperature changes, the fuel load changes, the tires lose grip.

    -JDF

    1. Re:This sounds cool... by Osty · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Imagine putting the crew chief in the car-- and basically replacing him with a very small shell script.

      Bad idea. No shell script can ever hope to compete with a properly experienced crew chief. Look at pros like F1 teams, where they have all of the wizbang gadgetry you could ever want (telemetry is cool!), and they still have crew chiefs. I could see this being useful for limited applications in a very amateur setting, but anything more serious would require a crew chief with knowledge.


      Is the car pushing on entry? Back off the front repulsors a few volts. Dial a volt or two into the back... Adjust wedge on the fly.

      Worse idea. The last thing you want to be doing during a race is making adjustments on the fly like that. Ignoring the logistics of how you'd do it (limited mobility within a cockpit, even of a touring car), trying to decide if you need to dial up two volts or three, or if you should be dialing down, or if you even have the right dial is not a good idea. If you have time to do anything more than glance at your tach (and often, you shouldn't even need that, instead trusting engine sound to tell you when to shift), you're not driving fast enough. This will not make you more competitive, and will add quite a few more possible points of failure.


      And the sick thing is, you don't even have to make the driver do it. A few sensors on various wheels and currently available computing horsepower and it'll know on its own. A car that dynamically adjusts itself to optimal handling as the weather changes, the track temperature changes, the fuel load changes, the tires lose grip.

      What is optimal handling? Such a system would need a very configurable interface, because no two drivers prefer the same setup. You may like a car that "pushes" (or "understeers", as we non-NASCAR fans like to say), while I may like a car that's "loose" (or "oversteers"). Guess what? That requires a lot of setup beforehand, and will change from track to track so you'll spend much of your available pre-race practice time monkeying with electronics same as you would monkeying with mechanical suspensions. That goes back to the first point, where you will still need a good crew chief.


      Finally, this can only compensate for variables that a suspension can affect. If my brakes start to fade late in a race, there's nothing the suspension can do about it. Same for losing aerodynamic pieces of the car. I also wouldn't trust it with unexpected track surface problems (oil or other fluid spills in the race line, dirt or gravel pulled onto the track from off-track excursions, marbles when you have to go off-line for a pass or to avoid a collision, the changing amount of rubber left on braking zones and turns, etc). The transition would have to be completely smooth, and the driver would need a lot of seat time with the system under such conditions to learn what it does in such a scenario. Worst case, you'll lose control of the car because you were expecting it to handle one way, and the suspension changed right out from underneath you.

    2. Re:This sounds cool... by Osty · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Take a look at any race car there are any number of adjustments the driver makes. Be it brake bias, rollbar stiffness, boost, rev limiter, mixture, shocks. the fastest drivers are making these changes during a corner, the ideal setting for entry is most certainly the not the one you want on exit.

      I don't know what type of racing you're following, but I've never heard of changing anything like that while driving. (okay, perhaps mixture control, but that's about it). There's simply not time to make the such precise adjustments while in the middle of a turn. Drivers do make adjustments all the time, but they do so through the controls of the car. Changing braking points, carrying more or less brakes while turning, adjusting their line, etc, are all things that drivers can and should do while racing.

      Being such a knowledgeable race fan you must have heard of active suspenson with regards to F1. This system is almost the same. In fact one of the most dominant F1 cars of all time was fitted with active suspension.

      I don't follow F1, but that wouldn't surprise me. Lots of neat technology has been banned by FIA for one reason or another, but in general it's to try to keep the competition balanced. If anything goes, then the team with the biggest bank account wins (that may still be the case even with regulations, but in theory ...). Part of racing is the constant battle between regulatory committees and teams (for instance, look up some history on Porsche's entries in the 24 hours of LeMans to see how they constantly found ways to skirt the rules, everything from aerodynamics to homologation rules, and how FIA responded each time by modifying the rules)

      The best race teams hardly ever make radical alterations to car at the track. The reason is that they have raced at the track many times before and have historical data, they set the car up at the factory and then make minor adjustments at the track.

      True enough. My point was that setting up an active suspension to behave in a manner you prefer would be just as time consuming as setting up a mechanical suspension, if not more so.

      Changes to suspenson can indeed make braking more effective, so it may be feasable that a change via a system like this could help brakes make it to the end.

      At what cost? And how quickly would an active suspension be able to adjust from compensating for brake fade to maximum traction during turning to maximum traction during acceleration, and could it do so without upsetting the "set" of the car?

      If your stupid enough to drive over oil/fuel then I hardly think you can blame the system for not saving you.

      You don't always have that choice. If you're too close behind the accident, or it's in a horrible spot (poor off-line area of the track, and the spill is on-line), or there's simply no room to manuever to avoid, you're going to run through it. It happens, and you have to deal with it. I personally wouldn't be comfortable doing that with a suspension that could change out from underneath me without a ton of seat time in such scenarios. I'm an amateur (less than an amateur, even!), and can't afford that type of seat time. The pros can, but that's why they're the pros :)

      It would appear the only thing I agree with in your post is the need for a crew chief

      At least we agree on something. I'm not necessarily old-fashioned, but when it comes to racing I'm of the opinion that it should be as visceral as possible. Sure, you can go faster, drive harder, and handle more and more impressive tracks with technology, and that's cool, but I prefer my racing to have a human element (not in the way that the Olympics have a "human el

  13. The way of electronic steering? by Judg3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    All I hope is that this system isn't TOO good. Take electronic sterring - worked great, but people hated it. Why? It's was to good, too "disconnected", you couldn't 'feel' the road under you - it made people uneasy, like they where floating.

    Likewise, if this system is so good, so good in fact that people literally don't feel the road at all, they'll shy away from it. There's just something weird about driving and not being able to feel the road under you - it's like being disconnected, giving you a feeling of not being in control.

    (Electronic systems tried to compromise by adding force feedback, but it was to late by then)

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    1. Re:The way of electronic steering? by MtViewGuy · · Score: 2, Informative

      Question: are you talking about power steering that uses an electric motor instead of a fluid-based system?

      Most of the new high-end BMW and Mercedes-Benz cars now use power steering systems powered by an electric motor due to the fact they weigh much less than traditional power steering systems.

    2. Re:The way of electronic steering? by Grishnakh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      All I hope is that this system isn't TOO good. Take electronic sterring - worked great, but people hated it. Why? It's was to good, too "disconnected", you couldn't 'feel' the road under you - it made people uneasy, like they where floating.

      Do you have any links? I've never heard of this (I assume you're talking about fully-separated drive-by-wire steering, with no mechanical connection between the steering wheel and the front wheels).

      Your reasoning is suspect, however. If it worked as you say, it should have been an instant hit in large American luxury cars. Ever driven a Lincoln Town Car (specifically, an early 90's model; it may have changed since then)? I drove one once, and the power steering was so overboosted that there was almost no feedback at all. It felt like driving those older arcade driving games that had no feedback.

      Likewise, if this system is so good, so good in fact that people literally don't feel the road at all, they'll shy away from it. There's just something weird about driving and not being able to feel the road under you - it's like being disconnected, giving you a feeling of not being in control.

      A system with no feedback isn't "good". It's absolutely dangerous. Since you can't guarantee that the steered wheels will always steer the car in the intended direction, and that there will never be a loss of traction, feedback is necessary to compensate. This is true of both human-controlled and computer-controlled systems, and is a basic fundamental of control system theory.

      The people who "shied away" from this shied away from it the same way people would intuitively, but smartly, shy away from using a power saw with a blindfold on.

  14. Not me... by evilviper · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Allow me to rant for a moment...

    I find that just about all products, and automabiles especially, are getting excessively complicated, needlessly...

    My current car for instance... The shoulder belt is electronically moved into place when the door is closed, and forward when the door is opened. Since I have to fasten my lap belt anyhow, this doesn't make life one bit easier for me, yet, the sensor goes out, the motor goes out, and either I'm paying shitloads of money to get replacement parts to fix the damn thing, or I'm welding it in-place, and then manually unhooking two seatbelts... Piece of junk. Meanwhile, basic, old-fashioned 3-point seatbelts work better.

    These days, cars are mechanically more sound than they were previously, but electronicly less sound. Cars used to overheat because of serious problems... Now they overheat because the $5 sensor (that costs $200 to have replaced) went out, and the electric fan didn't kick on when things were getting too hot... Meanwhile, a mechnical fan, connected to the engine shaft, would have worked just as well, never failed, and would have been cheaper.

    Maybe I am just (slightly) paranoid, but it seems as if manufacturers are making things needlessly complex intentionally so that they can sell more cars, or get more money on repairs. Something like airbags I can understand, but 99+% of this high-tech junk is no better than the low-tech solution, and is more prone to failure, and need replairs.

    Well, even if it's not intentional, I want no part of it, because facts are facts, and the more high-tech, the more problems there will be.

    Getting this back to the topic, I'm sure this new technology is an impressive improvement, but dammed if I want it. Truck drivers might stand to benefit from it, considering their unique situation, but with a car or a truck, the roughness of the ride is a very important indicator of how much damage you are doing to your vehicle.

    If their intention is really to allow you to haul heavy-loads, while cushioning small bumps, why aren't they doing it the low-tech way? There are plenty of spring designs that could be used that would make the ride very smooth when there is no load, yet maintain the strength when loaded. You wouldn't get the benefit from it when loaded, however, when a truck is heavily loaded, you normally don't feel the small bumps anyhow... It's only when they are emtpy that the firm springs result in a rough-ride.

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    1. Re:Not me... by DAldredge · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Since they aren't making as much on auto loans they have to make thier profit somewhere. And that someplace is repairs.

    2. Re:Not me... by Osty · · Score: 4, Informative

      My current car for instance... The shoulder belt is electronically moved into place when the door is closed, and forward when the door is opened. Since I have to fasten my lap belt anyhow, this doesn't make life one bit easier for me, yet, the sensor goes out, the motor goes out, and either I'm paying shitloads of money to get replacement parts to fix the damn thing, or I'm welding it in-place, and then manually unhooking two seatbelts... Piece of junk. Meanwhile, basic, old-fashioned 3-point seatbelts work better.

      What kind of car are you driving? I haven't seen a system like that in a car for nearly a decade. They were in style for a few years in the late 80s and early 90s, but quickly died a quick death. I'm sure it had nothing to do with the fact that the automatic belt gave drivers a false sense of safety, thus causing them not to latch their lap belts. The lap belt is the most important piece of a three-point belt restraint system, and with only a shoulder belt you run a very high risk of slipping down your seat in a collision, catching the shoulder belt with your chin, and literally losing your head.


      Assuming, then, that you're driving a 10+ year old car, it's no wonder you have these types of problems. Such computer-controlled systems were still relatively new, and they've come quite a long way.

    3. Re:Not me... by Scrameustache · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Cars used to overheat because of serious problems... Now they overheat because the $5 sensor (that costs $200 to have replaced) went out, and the electric fan didn't kick on when things were getting too hot... Meanwhile, a mechnical fan, connected to the engine shaft, would have worked just as well, never failed, and would have been cheaper.

      The fan's drive belt breaks...

      Things were not magically indestructible in the past, buster.

      --

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    4. Re:Not me... by buddha42 · · Score: 4, Funny
      I want no part of it, because facts are facts, and the more high-tech, the more problems there will be.
      When I die crashing my hoverbike because I was pulling 3G's and one of those newfangled e-lec-tronics failed, I will die a much happier man than if we'd listened to you, mister "hold it right here this has gone too far, back in the good old days we just used mechanics and we liked it."
    5. Re:Not me... by SagSaw · · Score: 3, Insightful

      These days, cars are mechanically more sound than they were previously, but electronicly less sound. Cars used to overheat because of serious problems... Now they overheat because the $5 sensor (that costs $200 to have replaced) went out, and the electric fan didn't kick on when things were getting too hot... Meanwhile, a mechnical fan, connected to the engine shaft, would have worked just as well, never failed, and would have been cheaper.

      I can think of at least four reasons to use an electric fan. First, it increases fuel efficiency. By turning off the fan when not needed more of the power from the engine is used to move the car down the road. Second, having fan speed proportional to engine speed really is not the correct relationship. If I am idling in heavy traffic on a hot day, I probably want the fan running faster than if I'm flying down the freeway at 80MPH on a cool day. Third, I have to imagine that it simplifies vehicle assembly since you don't have these large, thin, fairly delicate sheets of metal hanging off the front of the engine. Instead, the fan can be attached to and installed with the radiator. Finally, it allows for configurations where there the axis of rotation for the fan and the engine fall in different planes.

      None of these reasions have anything to do with adding complexity to get more money on repairs.

      --
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    6. Re:Not me... by thomasdelbert · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The electronics in cars today have lead to significant improvements.

      The electric radiator fan instead of the mechanical (to use your example) - electric fans only exist in front wheel drive vehicles. The reason for that is FWD vehicles have tranversally mouted engines so putting a mechanicly driven fan is actually more complicated and costly and less reliable than an electric fan. Cars didn't used to have that because FWD only came onto the scene in the late 80's.

      Electronic fuel injectors instead of carburators - now cars use less fuel and produce less harmful emissions than before. The Dodge Ram that used to get 6 mpg now gets over 15.

      Electronic ignition saves fuel and improves the perfomance of the vehicle due to its ability to adapt to the changing conditions (temperature, speed, load, etc) on the engine and gets rid of the mechanical distributor (which was a maintenance issue).

      Truth is, solid-state electronics are always less prone to failure than their mechanical counterparts and usually have the ability to adapt instantly to changing conditions.

      The electronic suspension is a natural progression, something I've been waiting to see. I'm just surprised that it was Bose that introduced it first.

      The spring designs that you refer to - they are the leaf spring live-axle suspension - the oldest design known. My truck has that on the rear axle. Some have it one the front as well. You are correct that they have a smooth ride and that they handle a wide variety of load conditions. In fact, they can probably handle a wider range than this electronic suspension.

      The point of it though was that you can get great cornering ability without losing the smoothness of the ride. My truck corners quite poorly and the suspension is a major factor in that (the other factor being the higher centre of gravity).

      It seems that Bose demontrated this on a luxury car instead of on a truck, which prolly means that that was the target market of this system. Cars don't handle nearly the range of loads that trucks do (which is why cars can have independant suspesions on all four wheels) so it seems that your point of hauling loads is irrelevant in this discussion.

      As for reliability - the front suspension of my truck is independant, like most trucks. I've had all four ball joints replaced already. I've never had to replace any electronics in my car - anywhere. (I know - anectodal evidence...)

      To summerize, the leaf spring isn't going away, this system is designed to achieve different goals. And reliability isn't a concern when you compare it to the alternative.

      - Thomas;

      --
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    7. Re:Not me... by jmitchel!jmitchel.co · · Score: 2, Informative

      I believe you underestimate the cost of driving a mechanical fan. It's been a long time since I investigated, but I remember an estimate of tens of HP moving from a mechanical fan to an electric on some of the old ford V8 trucks. It sounds high when I think about it, but I'm guessing it's not cheap, especially in a context where my cars almost never run the fan (I wasn't entirely sure that I had a broken fan on one car until one sweltering day visiting DC, stuck in traffic (in front of the Supreme Court no less)).

      And which "1% of autos that have that particular problem" are you talking about. The mechanical fan thing only works sans pulleys for RWD cars. All front wheel drive cars (nearly all passenger cars in the US) have transverse mounted engines where the engine cranks parallel to the wheels, perpendicular to the radiator. That alone was enough to drive the mechanical fan out of existence.

    8. Re:Not me... by John+Courtland · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'm actually in the middle of swapping an electric fan from a Ford Taurus 3.8L into my 5.0L vehicle. Electric fans are cheaper energy wise, than mechanical clutch fans. At MOST my electric fan will draw 100A starting energy and about 30-40A constant. Even at 100A that's 1200W or about 1.6-1.7HP. Even with the conversion from mechanical energy to electrical energy at the alternator, assuming an abysmal 30% efficiency, that's still only a 4HP draw. My mechanical fan will draw well over 10HP. Maybe even 15HP at higher RPMs. Another problem is that if my fan clutch siezes, there goes my water pump. It'll take the bearings right out. So I'm removing a parasitic loss and a point of failure as well.

      --
      Slashdot is proof that Sturgeon's Law applies to mankind.
    9. Re:Not me... by Saidin · · Score: 2, Informative
      it increases fuel efficiency.


      Hmm... I have a few problems with that assertion.

      First of all, the gas used by spinning a small fan is nominal at best, and most likely that and much more gas is being wasted by other components that could be eliminated or just optimized.

      Second, it wastes much more gas if you must first turn it into electricity, and then use it to do work. The losses right there quite probably make up the difference in gas... At least driving here in the desert where it's hot most of the time.

      To quote from this article , you would be wrong:
      "The first change a user will notice after installing this system," Gotting said, "is an improvement in fuel economy. The power absorbed by a rotating fan is much higher than most people believe, and it is proportional to the cube of the speed. The fact is that a direct-drive fan can consume as much as 27 engine horsepower at 3,000 rpm, yet the level of cooling this represents is required less than five percent of the time in most applications. Until now, though, there has been no practical way to control that power consumption.


      The article also addresses a lot of your other complaints about changing the fan system from a mechanical one. But, what it really comes down to, is there were fundamental engineering problems that people were trying to solve. The electric fans in cars helped solve some of them. The article I linked discussed another type of fan system that tries to take it one step further.

  15. Worth it or not?.... by oR3n · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Hm, I guess you can't really know at these early stages if such a product or whatever would succeed in the mass market, if it would, maybe like other people have said, it'd be overpriced. Maybe after they work out all the "kinks." Hopefully it won't be similar to "Micro$haft" products. =)

    --
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  16. Typical Bose by Osty · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Little or no technical details, controlled environments that make their technology appear better than it is, and exaggeration. If you read the last article linked, it's not even a fair comparison. For instance, there's this quote:

    Docked atop an indoor road simulator, the test car's suspension system was switched on and off to highlight the difference between it and typical hydraulic systems.

    There's no reason to assume that the Bose suspension does not in any way affect the existing suspension, so simply switching it off is not a fair comparison.

    The idea of active suspension is not new, and Bose is not the only one doing it. GM has had "Magnetic Ride Control" for a few years now, and other manufacturers have similar active technologies. While the Bose articles are light on details, it seems that the Bose technology is not far different from other electronically controlled systems (something about electric motors at all four wheels, yet it apparently still uses standard pneumatic suspension components as well).


    Bose's flair for hyperbole and marketing is their only real asset. My ass it took 24 years to develop this technology. Perhaps it's been 24 years since there has been any significant innovation in suspension technology (I'm not buying it, though ...), but there's no way Bose has been working on this one piece of technology for 24 years.


    Bose can sell a $20 clock radio for $300, and a $1000 home theater system for $3500, and you can bet they'll sell this technology for quite a bit more than average as well, where similar systems are currently optioned around $1000-$3000 depending on the make (ie, Porsche's system is more expensive than Chevy's, and I would expect Bose to be even more expensive than Porsche)


    Besides, do you really trust a second-rate "hi-fi" (haha!) company to build the suspension for your car? I certainly wouldn't! Porsche, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Chevy, et al have been doing it for far longer, and have a much deeper wealth of automotive knowledge. I'll trust the experts on this one, rather than Bose.

    1. Re:Typical Bose by DieByWire · · Score: 2, Informative
      While the Bose articles are light on details, it seems that the Bose technology is not far different from other electronically controlled systems

      Wrong.

      The Cadillac system is a high tech spring and damper system. The trick is that the viscosity of the (very expensive) damping fluid can be controlled by the application of a magnetic field. <Buzzword warning> Nanotech stuff, I believe </buzzword> The suspension can change it's damping rate, but the wheel is still being moved by the springs.

      The Bose system is using what they call a linear motor (think solenoid, but not limited to on or off) to control the wheel. This suspension can lift the wheel or push it down. It knows the difference between a spring compression due to a bump and a spring compression due to heavy braking or cornering, so it knows whether to resist the lift of the wheel or to let it rise.

      Cool stuff, if you ask me.

      --
      Never shake hands with a man you meet in a fertility clinic.
  17. This is hardly revolutionary... by kgbspy · · Score: 4, Informative

    Erm... a system just as good as this, if not superior to it, has been around for quite a while, and in its current generation will do everything that this BOSE system does; most probably better. And this is based technology that has been around since the early 50s, with major changes only being introduced in the last 10 years or so.

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    -- INSERT --
  18. Unfortunately.. by dj245 · · Score: 4, Informative

    ...The success of Bose is not due to superior products, but superior marketing. This article, this one, and this one all point to Bose offering low quality products with some heavy duty marketing to back them up. I'm really not impressed by this latest invention, it just sounds to me like the "Just add magical magnets" effect. Put on some magnets, call it magic, make some money.

    --
    Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
  19. Benz there. Done that. by dsurber · · Score: 5, Informative

    Mercedes already offer a comperable system on the 2004 SL, CL, and S class. This has been availble in the CL since the 2000 model year. This page is pure Flash, but it describes the system. http://www.mbusa.com/media/richmedia/main/models/t ech_demos/abc/abc.swf

  20. Re:Coil Over by slickwillie · · Score: 3, Funny

    Let's see - my M-B ML320 battery went dead on a Saturday morning and I was without a car for 4 days. I replaced the battery immediately, and the car started up but it refused to accelerate. I had to have it towed to the dealer on Monday and got it back Tuesday afternoon.

    How far will you be able to drive when your Bose Suspension computer gets confused? Give me analog until they get right.

  21. First thought by llZENll · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I haven't looked at the video yet, but the first thought that came to mind is, I hope they actually make a good product if it's going into a car which peoples lives depend on. What I mean is pretty much anyone who knows anything about speakers knows BOSE is probably the most overpriced, overrated, POS speakers you can buy, this is probably the doing of the BOSE board of directors rather than Mr. Bose though.

  22. Good-bye bumpstops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Since it seems all residential streets in America are thoroughly infested with these bumpstops (forcing you to reduce the speed from the legal 25 mph to around 5 mph ), I welcome this new suspension.

  23. The technology I'm waiting to see... by soluzar22 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...is something similar to this whereby the entire car is quite simply propelled by magnetic repulsion. Think about it: If all the roads had the appropriately polarised magnetic cores implanted in them, surely it would be possible to use the maglev system already implemented in mass-transit systems on a new and unprecedented scale. Is it too much to hope that this might be the first step towards reaching that lofty goal?

    In my book, it just figures that a loudspeaker company would be the first to start tinkering with this kind of tech. It's just the sort of thing that you can imagine occuring to some sound engineer after too many hours screwing around with large magnets.

    --
    Sign the FSF's Anti-DMCA petit
  24. Lotus active suspension by CovetPaws · · Score: 2, Informative

    "Between 1983 and 1987, the Lotus active suspension disappeared (from F1). According to Wright, "The system was being developed for road car use by Lotus Engineering." Many GGLC members may recall seeing videos of an active suspended Excel actually 'banking' into corners and running a slalom virtually flat." http://www.gglotus.org/ggtech/activesusp/activesus pn.htm

  25. Comparing Apples to Oranges by teneighty · · Score: 5, Insightful

    IANCE (Chassis Engineer), but I have an interest in suspension systems as applied to motor racing. The suspension in the vehicle depicted as having a "conventional" system a very poor choice for comparision since it appears to be a medicore suspension system at best. A conventional suspension system with stiffer springs, anti-roll bars, and better dampers would perform drastically better under those types of conditions.

    The vehicle pictured appears to be a Lexus LS400, which of course is a luxury barge that sacrifices handling for comfort. I realise Bose is claiming you can have your cake and eat it too - but I'd like to see a more valid comparision before drawing any conclusions - for example, a comparision with a BMW 5-series

    This system looks like it would be quite heavy - and I bet you need extra batteries to provide adequate current too. Another question is how much heat the system generates, and how well it performs when hot (any electrical engineers care to comment on that?)

  26. was that really why? by johnpaul191 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    i thought electronic steering went nowhere because the DOT would never approve a system that failed if you blew a fuse.

  27. Re:fail-safe? by Tokerat · · Score: 2, Insightful


    I would imagine that with the stringent standards put forth for safety guidelines in automobile manufacturing this day in age, there would have to be come kind of fail-safe before the system went into production for the public. Perhaps this prototype is without, but proving the principal at hand seems to have been the focus of the research. Step 2 is to create a practical implementation. (Step 3 will definitley be "Profit!!!")

    I imagine that the most obvious saftey solution is to build such a control system into existing suspension designs. That way, if the system fails it can simply halt and allow the suspension to perform as it would standard. An inconvinience, but hardly deadly.

    I can't wait to see the trends this is going to bring: Hook your stereo into your suspension and rumble the road, you'll be heard for miles! (Althought that would be really awsome to see, yes I'd be annoyed too. Loud stereos don't really bother me, but that would be seriously ridiculous.)

    --
    CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
  28. Corvette has had something similar for awhile by FuzzzyLogik · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The Chevy Corvette has had Electromagnetic selective ride control for awhile.. not sure how well it works but if the corvette has it i'm sure it's fairly good.. full text from the chevy website..

    Magnetic Selective Ride Control Magnetic Selective Ride Control is a real-time, cockpit-adjustable ride control system that adjusts shock absorber damping by means of electromagnetically charged particles contained within the shock fluid. When exposed to a magnetic charge, the fluid properties change, forming a near solid state. With wheel position sensors at each wheel, the system literally reads and responds to every inch of the road, immediately adjusts the damper force on each wheel and responds to changing road and driving conditions. Unlike traditional mechanical shock valves, there is practically no limit to the range of soft-to-firm damping capability. And it responds five times faster than previous real-time damping (RTD) systems. There are two cockpit settings: "Tour" and "Sport," with a switch located on the center console. The "Tour" setting provides more ride comfort and compliance for everyday driving conditions, while the "Sport" setting provides a firmer ride for performance driving and more communication of road feel. The difference for driver comfort is dramatic. Drivers feel less feedback from swells, dips and contours in the road. Real-time damping systems have existed for years, but they have always relied on traditional, mechanically operated shock valves. The breakthrough MR technology, with precise electronic control, represents the cutting edge of active suspension systems.

    --
    Kyle
    http://www.unlogikal.net/
  29. Question about the videos by NeoSkandranon · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I find myself watching those videos and thinking "My car doesn't appear to yaw and pitch that badly when i drive, and driving in rush hour interstate traffic i make alot of those maneuvers"

    Only explanation I can think is that the courses were driven alot faster than they appear, and then the video slowed down so you can see the effects more clearly.

    Anyone else perhaps more learned in this area care to comment?

    --
    If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
    1. Re:Question about the videos by vrt3 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I was thinking exactly the same thing.

      Either
      - they show both the movies for the original system and their system in slow motion, which would make their system even more impressing
      - they should their movie in real time, and the movie with the original system in slow motion, which would be cheating
      - they modified the original suspension, made it much softer, which would be cheating also.

      I've been told that suspensions in general are stiffer here in Europe than in America, even that suspensions on cars imported from America are stiffened because Europeans like it better (some even say it's because they're not allowed on the road with their soft suspensions). Even if that's true, the suspension in those movies (if not in slow motion) seems softer than anything on the market.

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  30. What happens when you lose power? by multiplexo · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Sure, springs and shocks are brute stupid technology from the dawn of time, but they're also brute stupid reliable technlogy from the dawn of time.

    --
    cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
    1. Re:What happens when you lose power? by ChrisMaple · · Score: 2, Informative

      The mechanical springs are still in place and will support the chassis with power off. However, the ride is likely to be bouncy then.

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  31. Needless complexity in automobiles... by hot+soldering+iron · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Is caused by design.

    My brother-in-law is a young, but very well respected manufacturing engineer that graduated from one of the top 5 engineering schools in the US. He related to me that when he had to take the automotive engineering block, his design guidlines were to make it: modular, unrepairable, limited lifetime, and requiring an expensive machine tool infrastructure to build.

    This was to prevent shade-tree and small shop mechanics from repairing/replacing/rebuilding parts, and force them to purchase replacement parts. I ran into this in the electronics industry also - you sell the device once, but only you can repair it for the next 20 years.

    This sounds like one more unnecessary gimmick, like heated rearview mirrors, temp controlled seats, self-actuating shoulder belts, etc...
    When it works right, it will be very nice. When it doesn't, it will be very expensive. And let's not forget that Bose will have this entire system patented, and the control modules probably potted and rigged to wipe themselves if tampered with ("I'm sorry, your module is damaged, that will take 2 weeks and $700 to get a new one").

    Thank god that there isn't a software equivalent to electronics potting compound!

    --
    When you want something built, come see me. If you want correct grammar and spelling, get a F*ing liberal arts student.
  32. Term. by hot_Karls_bad_cavern · · Score: 4, Informative

    Just pickin' 'cause i use my camera (a lot), but that is not really over-exposure, the technique used there is what is refered to as a "rear-synced" exposure....the flash is synced to bang at the end of the exposure lighting the subject at the end of its movement during the shot. You are most correct in stating that this is an excellent way to show how this suspension acts though...a damn good way. It's also how some very dramatic and motion-capturing shots are taken in nightclubs and other low-light situations. Very nice effect and used here perfectly.

    Again, just picking 'cause i'm love with the camera ;-)

  33. Screw the passengers... by fireman+sam · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If the driver is having fun, (s)he will not feel a single bump reguardless of the condition of the road.

    Just my $0.00 worth.

    --
    it is only after a long journey that you know the strength of the horse.
  34. Inefficient. by adolf · · Score: 3, Interesting

    According to TFA, the system uses about one third of the power that a typical car's air conditioner would.

    Considering that an automotive AC compressor consumes between 3 and 5 horsepower. Doing the math, that equates to something around an extra 1 to 1.6 horsepower being required to operate this system.

    Which doesn't sound like much, until you do the rest of the math:

    1.6 horsepower = 82.84 amps at 14.4 volts. 82.84 amps is a fuckload of current to move around in a car for anything, let alone just to keep the car on the road.

    Wake me up when the thing doesn't require fatter cabling than the starter motor, and ceases to present a real safety hazard in the event of (increasingly likely) alternator failure.

    --
    Kid-proof tablet..
    1. Re:Inefficient. by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 3, Informative

      It sounds like a lot, but its not atypical. A power-steering module I worked with once drew about 90 amps peak. Our power distribution boxes regularly handle hundreds of amps of current.

      Motors like to suck current. Its just one of those things. Auto world has been dealing with it for years now, and we've pretty much figured out how to handle high current loads (hell, we switch those 90 amp currents on and off in a box the size of a small hardcover book.)

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  35. Re:24 years to develop by zurmikopa · · Score: 2, Funny

    24 years, huh? Well, now we know how long grad students can stay in school.

  36. Re:Aftermarket by bsartist · · Score: 3, Funny

    Okay guys, soviet Russia no longer exists, get over it.

    In Soviet Russia, you no longer exist! ;-)

    --
    Lost: Sig, white with black letters. No collar. Reward if found!
  37. "Two Much Comfort"? by uptownguy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    From the summary: Two much comfort, and the car rolls and pitches a lot

    I don't know what's more disturbing: The obvious spelling error in the article summary or that fact that, six hours later, not a single nerd has thought it important enough to mention...

    Is it possible that I am the only one who cringed when reading "two much"????

    --


    I would have to say that explosives are the most abused technology in all of history.
  38. An end to "sleeping policemen" by Julian+Morrison · · Score: 2, Informative

    When this gets to be in normal cars, it's going to end the day of those god-awful "traffic calming" measures, where they embed humps in the road. Damn, but I hate that lurch-lurch sensation and the slowing and starting those things cause. Good riddance to them.

  39. this is all interesting, by wobblie · · Score: 2, Insightful

    but I would rather see cars become simpler, not more complicated (yeah when pigs fly). At the rate we're heading they're going to be utterly impossible to work on yourself, and will be disposable. This will be hideously expensive and very wasteful.

  40. Several insurmountable obstacles-- by Ancient_Hacker · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Looks great in a demo, but lots of hard to overcome obstacles, real show-stoppers: (1) COST-- How many people will pay an extra $X,000 to fix what's a non-problem for many drivers? Is this enough volume to bring the cost down to reasonable levels? (2) Reliability-- Any system that involves that many amps is going to have a certain failure rate in the driver electronics. It's possible the legal liabilities may make the system untenable. (3) We're talking major watts of heat dissipation here. The actuators may be able to handle the occasional swerve or bump, but can they handle 60 minutes of washboard road? Not likely without an active liquid cooling loop. (4) False alarms. If this is like most systems of this kind they have ultrasonic or laser sensors to look at upcoming bumps. Works fine on a clean dry road. But add water, snow, blowing dust, or blowing plastic bags, and the sensor is likely to "see" a big obstacle and command an abrupt "wheel up" command. Very nasty induced bump! (5) Lack of driver feedback. If the system hides road conditions from the driver, they may easily end up going waaay too fast for road conditions. Everything will be fine until the system gets to 100%, then all heck might break loose as the wheels lose traction. Airplanes have to be specifically designed by law to give plenty of warning before getting into dangerous parts of the performance envelope. It's time this requirement apply to autos also. (6) Noise. Notice the movies are silent! How much noise do the actuators make, and is this noise less irritating than a little body lean? This may be a technology that's always really neat looking from afar, but not worth it once all the drawbacks are considered.

  41. Automatic shoulder belt was an interim solution by Solandri · · Score: 2, Informative

    Basically, airbags started to make the news and Congress decided automakers were taking too long to implement them. So they passed a law stipulating x% of new cars sold had to have an automatic restraint system, with x increasing each year until it hit 100%. For a few years in the mid to late 80s, automakers that couldn't get airbags implemented/priced low enough used the automatic seatbelt thingamajig to satisfy the law. It was never "in style" - everyone hated them. That's why the lap belt wasn't attached. There's no way to automatically move the lap belt out of the way while the occupant is getting into the seat.