Vote Tabulator Security Hole Exposed

Doc Ruby writes "Black Box Voting has exposed a security hole in Diebold machines that tabulate votes collected from electronic voting machines. A code entered into the tabulator's user interface duplicates the "secure" counts into an insecure count which can be changed, and counted instead. The "double books" vulnerability and exploit were reported to the manufacturer over a year ago, and confirmed, while major customers (California and Washington states) were notified shortly thereafter. In spite of some revisions, the latest version of the software remains insecure. Diebold voting machines running GEMS version 1.18.x are vulnerable, running in about three dozen states. Although the software is widely deployed, and scheduled for use in shortly upcoming elections, risk mitigations are available, mostly protocols restricting physical or network access to the machines. Other auditing/accountability measures for ensuring only trusted access to the system are recommended."

Comments

Captain Obvious Strikes Again…

[Izago909]

For all the banter that goes on here, we all know how this is going to turn out. Everybody bitches and moans about it, and the mainstream press runs toned down stories. In the mean time, people who know what's going on continue to look like crazy conspiracy theorists. End result: The public won't know or won't care until a massive mistake is uncovered after the person enters office and everyone realizes that they've been living under the authority of a false representative. Of course, that's provided said person doesn't pass a law to protect people in his situation once they're discovered.

Re:Captain Obvious Strikes Again…

[ackthpt]

End result: The public won't know or won't care until a massive mistake is uncovered after the person enters office and everyone realizes that they've been living under the authority of a false representative. Of course, that's provided said person doesn't pass a law to protect people in his situation once they're discovered.

You give people too much credit. The level of complacency after the 2000 fiasco, which no doubt some very sharp minds took note of, underscored that people just really as a whole don't give that much of a damn about democracy in the US anymore.

So ironic in the face of what's been happening in Honk Kong, as people vie against the Beijing political machine to retain or advance their democratic cause -- the country which lit a the fire of democracy lacks passion.

It's sad to say, but this system could be hacked 10 ways from Sunday and people would grumble, but you'd hardly see the kind of response it should warrant.

Re:Captain Obvious Strikes Again…

[Anonymous Coward]

The number of security flaws with these machines has been tremendous, not to mention odd little programming tricks like dividing and multiplying the number of votes by 1 (anyone doing a little binary patching should know why this is significant).

The CEO of Diebold is a friend of Bush and, during a charity dinner, has stated that Diebold will do everything it can to deliver as many votes to the Republicans as possible.

A few gubernatorial elections using Diebold machines have had upset elections going to the Republicans when exit polls suggested a Democrat victory with 60+% of the vote.

It could be a coincidence but the secrecy and suspicious number and types of bugs does not bode well.

Re:Captain Obvious Strikes Again…

[Short Circuit]

The original country that ignited the passions of democracy was wiped out in a war with Sparta thousands of years ago...

The country that currently champions democracy, well, yeah, we do lack passion.

Re:Captain Obvious Strikes Again…

[tedit]

When less than two dozen congressional seats are actually contested at any given election due to gerrymandering, and the electoral college system restricts the salient portion of the electorate to less than a dozen states, one wonders why Americans are so apathetic when so many of them are clearly disenfranchised out of the federal electoral process by an archaic voting system (the electoral college), or partisan state legislatures that draw ridiculously shaped congressional districts.

My theory is that the media, with its constant attention on "poll numbers" and the presidency, neither of which have any bearing on actual electoral results, have conditioned the many Americans who didn't pay attention in history class that we actually live in a direct democracy instead of a representative one.

On the other hand, in some ways its difficult to argue "disenfranchisment" - after all, California still counts, despite the fact that the Republicans have no chance there, and so does Texas. So does voting for an individual legislator - but only if no one else does. Unlike in Hong Kong, we are afforded a democracy. The distinction here is that it takes far more attention than the average person has, be they American, Chinese, or North Korean to realize how arbitrary and disproportionate our democracy is.

Re:Captain Obvious Strikes Again…

[antifoidulus]

That is why it is probably best to put away all this conspiracy theory stuff. Whether or not it's true, I don't know, it doesn't matter. Electronic voting has shown it is insecure and innaccurate. Even without tampering a lot of the machines have failed. It shows a real lack of planning more than anything else on Diebold's part. My best guess is that they are more incompetent than corrupt. They severly underestimated the issues involved and just rushed something out before the 2002 election in order to take advantage of the 2000 fiasco while it was still fresh in people's minds.
If Diebold was really evil, than they would have put much more thought into the machines. If they were evil, then they would have a very small numbers of difficult to find exploits, while producing a seemingly reliable machine. There are problems even with the basic protocol of going into the booth.
They are incompetent. They may be sinister, but it's not important to the argument, their incompetence should mean that the machines should not be used for elections. When people bring up the conspiracy theories, it just solidifies the resolve of the other side to use the machines.
If you explain to people that regardless of the vote and tampering that Bobo the Clown could end up governor of Neveda, then we may be able to have productive discussions.

Re:Captain Obvious Strikes Again…

[EvilTwinSkippy]

For starters, the United States is a Representational Republic, not a Democracy. A Democracy doesn't scale beyond a few thousand people.

One man's lack of rioting and civil war is another man's lack of rioting and civil war. GWB got in on a technicality. About half the country hates him for it. The other half hates the first half for being sore losers. And half of both sides really couldn't tell you what the president REALLY does anyway.

The Constitution is less about rights than about the orderly functioning of Government. Every handover of power in the US has been peaceful. No matter how bitterly contested, never has the victor been decided by shots fired in anger. (Ok, there was that massive civil war where the North basically burned the South to the ground... but that's merely an inconvient fact in an otherwise perfect theory...)

Re:Captain Obvious Strikes Again…

[John Miles]

The level of complacency after the 2000 fiasco, which no doubt some very sharp minds took note of, underscored that people just really as a whole don't give that much of a damn about democracy in the US anymore.

One way to interpret hairsplitting fiascos like the Y2K election is that perhaps it doesn't really matter who wins.

That could explain the lack of revolutionary outrage after the (s)election of Bush. The reason the 2000 election was so close was that the outcome, in the collective hive-mind that is the American electorate, just wasn't that important.

Landslides tend to happen when things suck, the candidates offer genuinely-different positions, and the need for change is acute (e.g., Carter's loss to Reagan in 1980). We're heading into another epsilon-fest in 2004, it seems, because the public is being given a choice between two rich white guys from Skull & Bones whose policies appear all but indistinguishable.

Re:Captain Obvious Strikes Again…

[clambake]

Of course, that's provided said person doesn't pass a law to protect people in his situation once they're discovered.

Dispite being ineligable to run for president due to not being old enough, I fully expect to win by a landslide this year on my one single campaign promise... 100% of the 2004 US treasury divided equally between all of the diebold stockholders, employees and thier respective family members and friends.

Re:Captain Obvious Strikes Again…

[Skater]

I think you're close, but just a little off: maybe the US in general didn't like either candidate in 2000.

--RJ

Re:Captain Obvious Strikes Again…

[demachina]

Not sure exactly what was insightful in this post.

"The Constitution is less about rights than about the orderly functioning of Government."

Excepting that you are conveniently forgetting that attachment to the Constitution called the Bill of Rights, which is about nothing but rights, especially noteworthy being the Tenth amendment:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

This amendement is the sweet one and was put there by the founding fathers, who had amazing wisdom, vision and foresight, because they dreaded the prospect of a power grab by a central government, a party, a President or Congress, especially if they acquired imperial aspirations much like we are seeing today.

The Republican party really seems to have concluded that they are the only party able to run America and the Bush family is for all intents and purposes attempting to form a dynasty to lead the empire. The Founding Fathers really dreaded the prospect of a President acquiring the trappings of the monarchy they hated so much in the King against whom they rebelled. His name was George too. How far America has fallen and how ironic that we once again seem to have a King George, just like the one the founding fathers rebelled against.

The Republicans are no doubt rationalizing to themselves that what they are doing is in the best interest of America, its OK to rig the election to stay in power, since they are the one true defender of the nation. Its OK they are destroying the foundations on which America was built in the process of "saving" it from its enemies, whether they be Muslim extremists or Democrats.

You can slam me for conspiracy theory but I can retort with the simple fact that Richard Nixon, also a Republican, was forced out of office for engaging in illegal activity to insure his reelection and hold on power. There is precedent. The Bush's just seem to have taken it to a whole new level today by exploiting computers.

Sorry to say it to you but you really don't live in the free country you thought you did unless everyone bands together to take it back.

Re:Captain Obvious Strikes Again…

[red floyd]

The problem is not the Electoral College per se, but the "Winner Take All" system that most states use to allocate their electors. If it was divided up a bit better it would spread it around.

Example: Under the Constitution, each state is allocated one elector for each Representative and each Senator. Allocate electors by Congressional districts (i.e. for each district, send the elector for the candidate that won said district), plus two winner take all for the whole state.

Then, if you're a Republican in CA or NY, you have a much better chance of "having your vote count".

Re:Captain Obvious Strikes Again…

[PsiPsiStar]

that we once again seem to have a King George


Another King George the Third, no less.

Of course, you don't give the British enough credit. Rebeling against the king was largely a symbolic gesture. The Brits had a parliment then, and while the house of Lords was hereditary, the house of commons at least was somewhat representative.

Halfway through the Revolutionary war, the Brits actually offered America their demand of representation, but they turned it down. They'd gone too far.

The reasons for the revolution were partly economic, incidentally, and similar to the later civil war since we've brought that up. The more industrialized sector (England, the North) needed the supplier of raw goods (America, the South) but the supplier of raw goods didn't like the terms that the industrialized sector was offering. So they rebeled.

I agree with you completly. Parts of the Republican party have really started to believe their rhetoric about how they're the "Only Moral Party" and the end result will be an assault on democracy, coupled with the inevitable justification that their adversaries somehow started it.

Re:Captain Obvious Strikes Again…

[demachina]

Well I agree with you completely too except I'm missing George III. Thought George W. was George the II. His dad being George the first. His grand dad was Prescott and I think before that it was Samuel though I'm a little hazy that far back. Bert Walker, George H.W. Bush's maternal grandfather was a key Machiavellian figure who helped propell the family to power and wealth along with the Harriman's, Bunny Harriman being a Yale class mate of Prescott Bush, fellow Skull and Bones man. Prescott did the day to day dirty work managing Harriman investments including working at Union Bank which was seized at the start of World War II since it was the American investment front of the Thyssen family, one of Germany's richest industrial families who helped throw support of German industry behind Hitler at a crucial point and helped insure his rise to power. It was quite the embarrassment to the Bush family at the time and appeared in one of the New York papers at the time. They managed to hush it up though. The documents on the seizure of Union Banking listing Prescott's name were declassified a few years ago and are available in the National Archives.

The Presidents middle names Herbert and Walker are tributes to Bert Walker who was a globetrotting manipulators of empires.

Another vein of this conspiracy theory is there is actually still a Tory party in the U.S. and its power base sits squarely in Connecticut and at Yale, the power base of the Bush family. They lived in Connecticut before they moved to Texas and there is now at least four generations of Yale alum in their family.

The wealthy elite that sits there has for sometime been operating on the same basis British nobility did, that most people are rabble and you can't trust them to govern themselves, so you need a cultured, schooled, moneyed elite to run things and that is pretty much what the Bush family and the Republican party is doing today. Of course Skull and Bones, the Yale secret society sits at the heart of this tory party. Wouldn't be suprised if they arranged the Democratic nomination for Kerry, also Yale grad, also Skull and Bones, with it predetermined that he will fall on his sword in by November as another avenue to insure George W. can't lost in November.

There is probably some truth to the idea that most American's are to dumb to govern themselves but unfortunately the moneyed elite that are doing it in their stead tend to govern in ways that are most likely to increase, enhance and extend their wealth and power, often at the expense of the rest of us.

Re:Captain Obvious Strikes Again…

[demachina]

"The Bill of Rights was a perversion of the purpose of a national constitution into a positive dispensation of rights as detailed in the first several amendments, rather than what it was supposed to be, a limitation and structuring of the powers of government."

Perversion....gag....The Bill Rights is the heart and sole of the Constitution. The original document dwells far to much on the minutia of the mechanics of government, is in numerous areas archaic, no place more so than in the electoral college, and didn't really put adequate checks on the Federal government to prevent it from usurping powers. Its no accident the Bill of Rights was penned by Thomas Jefferson, from a Southern State, Virginia, because the Southern states were most vehement in placing checks on the Federal government, an issue that would in the near future lead to the Civil War.

The Bill of Rights is by far the timeless and crucial part of the document that is being shredded by the current American government.

"also named George."

There is a key difference, Washington was named George, presumably as a namesake of the monarchs at a time America was still pretty loyal to the monarchy. I don't think he could change it after the fact when the colonies turned on George III. I think its a somewhat ironic tribute that he turned on his namesake.

The Bush clan by contrast settled on the name George after America shed the yoke of his dominion. I'd give you even money its because they have Tory sympathies and its a subtle statement they preferred the aristocracy to the democracy that replaced it, a democracy where rabble can aspire to be President. Connecticut, Yale and Skull and Bones are the power base where the Tories, who stayed in the colonies after the revolution, maintained their power base and have slowly reasserted the concept of a ruling elite thinly veiled by a sham democracy.

Re:Captain Obvious Strikes Again…

[AvitarX]

Except the way it is now it protects the US from a bad California person sweeping their own state and being beholden to only a small geographic area.

Before the times of easy speaching (pre-train) and adds in general (pre-TV) it was more important. Now we can get lots of info even on the non locals.

But is still stands as a protection against someone who benifits a few large states and says fuckall to the rest of the country.

Of cousre it also alows someone to say fuckall to a state where they have 40% of the vote and focus on areas that are more 50/50. SO it is not nessicerily any better, but does have a purpose.

Re:Captain Obvious Strikes Again…

[demachina]

Here is a good URL on Jefferson's thinking on the Bill of Rights. He was really unhappy that American rights were left largely to inference in the original constitution. He felt it essential to spell them out to prevent an out of control government, like we have to day, from usurping them:

"A bill of rights is what the people are entitled to against every government on earth, general or particular; and what no just government should refuse, or rest on inferences." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1787. ME 6:388, Papers 12:440

Unfortunately America is short on people of the stature of the founding father today so it remains to be seen if the unparalleled wisdom of the founding father's work will be unraveled in our lifetime.

For all of the Founding Father's wisdom they couldn't prevent an ignorant and apathetic American people from electing an ignorant President, and a petty malevolent Congress who, working in unison, with soon to be stacked courts, could shred the basis of the Republic and the Bill of Rights without a whimper from the American people.

Re:Captain Obvious Strikes Again…

[DreamerFi]

A Democracy doesn't scale beyond a few thousand people.

I guess Switzerland, amonst others, would take issue with that statement...

Re:Captain Obvious Strikes Again…

[mrjb]

What country would that be, 'currently championing democracy'? Certainly you're not from the US of A where the law is bought. Many a European country is much more democratic than the USA is ever going to be. It is easy to call your country 'the country that champions democracy' without looking at the rest of the world.

Re:Captain Obvious Strikes Again…

[demachina]

No facts....no facts.

Listen to any Bush stump speech like the one that he just gave to a Veterans group. It was non stop pounding that America is in danger, and he and the Republican's are the only ones that can make you safe. The line was something like "We will never sit down at a peace table" with the implication this war will never end but "we are winning and will win". A few key facts:

- He's bestowed upon himself the power to summarily arrest anyone he chooses, including U.S. citizens, hold them indefinitely without access to their family or a lawyer and is denying them all due process.
- He has shipped people to foreign governments so they can be subjected to extreme torture and has either endorsed, condoned or tolerated forms of torture in the U.S., Gitmo, Iraq, Afghanistan and potentially a number of other secret prisons around the world
- American's trying to exercise basic free speech rights are being arrested, or ordered in to pens where no one can see them
- Add in numerous quotes from Bush that he is being guided by God's will and in particular that he it was God's will he invade Iraq and bring Democracy to them. The man is either insane or a master manipulator of his extremist Christian followers.

You can just look at a brief history of the Republican party to discern a pattern of contempt for the Republic.

The last time they had control of Congress in the early '50's what did we have, McCarthyism, where people, often innocent, had their lives destroyed for nothing more than having different political views from the people in power. People were being coerced to rat on their friends and neighbors in an extraordinary and long running witch hunt in which people, often innocent, had their civil liberties thrown aside.

Read Goldwater's acceptance speech here tto remember how off the deep end he was. He was so extreme America turned on the Republican's and they had to pull in their extremist horns until Reagan unsheathed them again and Bush started goring people again.

Richard Nixon used people out of the CIA to engage in a massive and massively illegal secret campaign to destroy his political opposition.

Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush negotiated a secret deal with Iran to prevent the release of the hostages before the election for fear it might save Carter's reelection. You know it was no coincidence they were released as Reagan was being innaugerated making him look like some kind of hero. Another key part of this manipulation, arms were sold to Iran, with Israel's help, and the money was used to fund an illegal war against Nicaragua that was in explicit defiance of a bill passed by our elected representatives in Congress who had forbad such a war. It was a blatant contravention of the Constitution, an impeachable offense, and they got off with a slap on the wrist. By contrast Clinton was pilloried for all eight years he was in office, by the same Republicans, was impeached and it was over lieing about sex between consenting adults.

I'm sorry but there is a long running set of facts and justifications that the Republicans are an eliteist party that have contempt for the Constitution, the will of the people and will if they can turn back the clock to the 50's where America was being run by rich, white, Protestant men, blacks will be disenfranchised as Florida again attempted to do this year(see below), gays will be shoved back in the closet, the American military will be taking down one adversary after another, and everyone will be subjected to the moral code, by law, of fundamentalist Christians.

Footnote on Florida from a documentary on the Discover channel. As you probably know Jeb Bush in 2000 misused Florida law to strip voting rights from Blacks in Florida in 2000. For example they tried to deny a black minister access to his right to vote because he name was similar to a convicted felon. Enough blacks were wrongly d

Re:Captain Obvious Strikes Again…

[demachina]

Did you read the last item.

George's brother has engaged in a number of bold faced attempts to rig the election in Florida especially by disenfranchising enough blacks to swing the election.....twice.

Did you read the part about Nixon......he was trying to rig the 1972 election when he was caught in Watergate.

Did you read the part about the delay of the Iran hostage release. One reason Carter's first term was a disaster was because the Iran hostage situation was hanging over the entire last year. If they'd been released before the election it might have changed the outcome, though I doubt it. Reagan and Bush senior intentionally kept the hostages in Iran longer than necessary so they could be released the day Reagan took office so he could reap the positive karma of the ending of the cloud that had been hanging over the U.S.

At this point you either have poor reading comprehension or you suffer for the usual cognitive dissonance infection typical of the Republican party in general and Bush's fan boys in particular.

Email

[Klar]

Heh, why not just use email like the article earlier today?

Let me know

[Dwedit]

Let me know when a candidate named "Diebold Sucks" wins 15% of the popular vote.

Re:Let me know

[Exatron]

Sure, you're laughing now, but I'd like you to say that to President Diebold Sucks.

In times like these one has to wonder...

[GillBates0]

...just how many of these "holes" or rather bugs were intended to be features.

Re:In times like these one has to wonder...

[jd]

Oh, that seems certain. The "enter a code and we'll count the wrong column" 'bug' is almost certainly a left-over from code testing. That sort of "bug" doesn't occur because of a typo in a program, it's a deliberate test for a condition followed by a deliberate change of column selection.

Once "QA" (or what passed for it) was complete, either they forgot to remove the code, or they thought it might be a useful monitoring/debugging tool in the field.

Normal coders would wrap any such test-only code in #ifdefs, so that it wasn't active for normal use. But these aren't normal coders, so we can't assume that.

However, it is entirely on-par with people like Cisco shipping routers with a trivial password for the technicians.

Re:In times like these one has to wonder...

[LMCBoy]

It isn't a bug at all, according to the article. Diebold apparently put it there on purpose. I'm sure they merely want to be able to correct the votes of people who, um, "acccidentally" voted for the wrong candidate.

So impatient!

[Anonymous Coward]

Technology is a wonderful thing.

But come on. Are we so ADHD in this country we can't vote on paper and wait for real people to count them? Yes, there will be mistakes... but at least if a recount is needed, there's a paper trail.

If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time (or in this case, an opportunity) to do it over?

Can it be? A free PC!?

Re:So impatient!

[Anonymous Coward]

Like most greatly misguided government efforts, this has come about due to reactionary legislation. I was shocked that my state - WA - was even associated with electronic voting booths until I heard it's a federal requirement to have an electronic voting booth in every county of the state by 2006. This was in direct response to the Florida voting problems. Sure why not force states to use reliable and secure voting systems that don't even exist at the time of legislation?

Fucking genius, this government.

Re:So impatient!

[GeckoX]

Do you really think that people aren't too stupid to vote correctly electronically?

I doubt very much we could ever 'get it right' as you say. Realistically, it's about getting it as right as is reasonably possible, and at this point there just isn't an electronic voting system out there that doesn't introduce _more_ problems than are experienced with paper voting.

At least with paper voting, (as was mentioned above I believe as well) you have the paper trail you can always go back to, and these 'stupid' votes can be accounted for. Try finding the 'stupid' electronic votes.

Re:So impatient!

[brainstyle]

Here in Canada, you vote by writing an 'X' in the box next to the candidate you want. Votes are then counted by hand, with representatives of each major party in at each polling station watching the counting. It's not likely anyone will do anything underhanded and mess with the tally. I'm sure there have been some issues, but I can't remember anything remotely close to the mess in Florida during any of our elections.

It's a fallacy that you need a high-tech solution for this. Voting is too important to be obscured through code and harware. It's something that should be transparent, where recounts are done where necessary, and where there is no room for ambiguity or interpretation when the numbers are reported.

Re:So impatient!

[AgTiger]

> Here in Canada, you vote by writing an 'X' in the box next to the candidate you want.

What amused me was Elections Canada provided nice little pencils for marking your vote.

I guess we have the low-tech version of the changeable column in the voting machines.

Re:So impatient!

[brainstyle]

Well, if you're really that worried, it would probably be a lot easier to toss out a ballot for someone other than your guy, than to change one... but either way, I'm pretty sure you'd get caught - there are quite a few checks and balances going on during the whole process.

What is so fucking DIFFICULT about this??

[AmazingRuss]

It's COUNTING for chrissakes!

Re:What is so fucking DIFFICULT about this??

[EvanED]

Because it has to be counting in a repeatable, secure, verifyable, anonymouse, and as accurate as possible manner?

Re:What is so fucking DIFFICULT about this??

[Izago909]

Paper seemed to work for the longest time. Hell, it still does. The scandals with voting machines are just another aspect of the productivity paradox. People continue to look towards technology to simplify our lives, when in fact, it tends to make it more complex. For example: That nice little PDA that was supposed to make your notepad and address book outdated requires more effort to maintain than what it replaced. Electronic voting machines fall right in line.

Re:What is so fucking DIFFICULT about this??

[grozzie2]

After watching the last fiasco they called an election in the usa, yes, counting IS a difficult thing. It's so difficult, there was even one state that couldn't figure out how to do it, and instead waited for a supreme court decision to determine election results.

Multiple choice ballots are to confusing, and counting the results after the fact is to hard. The writing is on the wall, it'll only be a few more years before american elections are simplified even more. Ballots will have only one choice, that'll make all those pesky issues go away. That's what it's gonna take to 'dumb down' elections so they are not to challenging for the public, and it's coming soon to a ballot box near you.

Something tells me...

[DroopyStonx]

That this election is going to be utterly f'n rigged and even more of a controversy than the last one...

I can't believe they're actually trusting some random company with handling and counting votes. What makes this company so secure? I've personally never heard of them, and I'm sure most others haven't either, so why should I trust them?

I don't understand how you can go from traditional voting and in such little time completely switch to electronic methods. Case in point, these exploits that were found. Find one exploit and the whole thing is done for.

Re:Something tells me...

[Izago909]

I can't believe they're actually trusting some random company with handling and counting votes. What makes this company so secure? I've personally never heard of them, and I'm sure most others haven't either, so why should I trust them?

They probably make the ATM's you use, among other things that need to be secure.

Re:Something tells me...

[mynameis (mother ...]

I can't believe they're actually trusting some random company with handling and counting votes.

Random?!
Diebold?!

The company whos CEO, Walden O'dell, is "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year."

Snigger... Oh the things one really shouldn't put on paper, sign, and mail to a buncha people ;)
Where's my tinfoil....

Re:Something tells me...

[Kenja]

"They probably make the ATM's you use, among other things that need to be secure." but aren't. I walk away from any ATM that says DIEBOLD. I once saw one crashed to the Windows XP desktop. Scarry to say the least. I'll stick with the old B&W OS/2 based ATMs.

Re:Something tells me...

[GeckoX]

They do indeed. Though what they build is things that their clients want.

In the case of ATM's, their clients not only want, but rather insist most absolutely, that they be secure and fully auditable.

In the case of these voting machines, their client would like a machine that gives them a voting advantage.

Damned, it's near genius really in an evil way. The exploits in point don't even need to be used at all to be used as a tool in manipulating the outcome of the next election. Should they win, well they can stand firmly behind the technology. Should they loose, well look at this exploit that must have been used. These are insecure and invalid! Seed of doubt.

If you can sue McDonalds for coffee...

[major.morgan]

I'm starting to get confused; If you can sue McDonalds for coffee, or just about anyone for not protecting me from myself - why hasn't someone taken Diebold on in court?

This just in...

[powerlinekid]

Coming up later on News at 11; Diebold machines found to be insecure. This and a shocking expose proving once and for all that water is wet.

Wow...

[autopr0n]

Is anyone else suprised by how bad diebold's coders are? I mean seriously. I know microsoft can't make their products secure, but they have millions of lines of legacy code and compatability issues. This isn't an excuse, but building a secure system from the ground up should be pretty straight forward, honestly.

Security should have been the top priority the whole way through, but apperantly it wasn't. Pretty amazing, IMO.

And wtf, they can't fix a bug in a year? They're not going to have it fixed by Nov? Jesus, what is it with these people.

Also, this is kind of boring. Anyone involved in the RNC convention or the protests around here?

Re:Wow...

[LMCBoy]

Read the fine article, it is NOT a bug. It's a "double-booking" exploit which Diebold apparently put in on purpose.

From TFA:
This program is not "stupidity" or sloppiness. It was designed and tested over a series of a dozen version adjustments.

Re:Wow...

[yo303]

Is anyone else suprised by how bad diebold's coders are?

It should be surprising to most people, because Diebold is one of the largest makers of automated bank machines. When was the last time an ATM counted wrong? Conspiracy theorists, now increasing in numbers, are not surprised, because the bank clients want accuracy and security while the Republican election clients don't.

Widely quoted examples:

- Jeb Bush, unconcerned about 2002 Florida touch-screen election debacle, says "What is it with Democrats having a hard time voting?"

- Diebold CEO says he is "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year."

- etc.

yo.

Re:Wow...

[Zak3056]

Conspiracy theorists, now increasing in numbers, are not surprised, because the bank clients want accuracy and security while the Republican election clients don't

Neither do the Democrats.

God, this kills me--it's always a fucking "vast right-wing conspiracy" despite the fact that both parties do the same damn things.

California is buying Diebold election machines. I'm sure you'll point at Ahhnold as the reason for this, without taking into account that this has been going on since Davis was in the state house, and that the legislature is completely controlled by the Democrats. Are the Republicans using the Orbital Mind Control Lasers to speed the democrats to their doom here, or what? In Florida in 2000, we got to hear about how evil the republicans were because so many people were disenfranchised by an illegal butterfly ballot when the ballot in question was designed by an elected democrat in a heavily democrat district, which was a fact ignored by just about everybody involved. The stupid morons even reelected her!

This country is at the point where a truly frightening percentage of people will vote for anyone with the right letter next to their name, regardless of their actual positions, and also blame everything on the opposing party.

9/11? Bill Clinton's fault!
Economy slowing down in 2000? George Bush's fault!
Bad weather? $OPPOSITE_PARTY'S fault!

The two mainstream political parties and the people that support them are killing our nation. From gerrymandering to outright voter fraud, both the Republicans and the Democrats are working to make your vote worth less every year. But you go ahead and try to convince yourself that things will magically get better if we get rid of Bush.

Re:Election Stealing

[proverbialcow]

This is all about how the Republicans are going to steal the election... Again.

Not if I can find out what the 'code' is...

Wow. What a perfect "mistake" -- it functions!

[CFD339]

So let me understand. Entirely by accident, if you enter a specific code at the machine, a transparent and highly successful process takes the existing collected data and makes a duplicate of that data which can be altered and fed into the combining and counting process.

Someone must have REALLY misspelled an important constant, no? I mean, what are the odds? When I screw up, the code usually just fails to compile or takes out the vm. Someone needs to find the guy who "accidentally" did that and get him to buy lottery tickets for all of us.

wow.

Re:Election Stealing

[gilroy]

Blockquoth the poster:

This is all about how the Republicans are going to steal the election.

It's about how someone will steal the election... It's not our fault that everyone immediately jumps to the Republicans as the theives.

Why not secure your website first?

[chipandrews]

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/?q=node/view/25' (SQL Injection vulnerability) You'd think that people who knew so much about what's wrong with Diebold security would do their own homework first. Not to let Diebold off the hook but we all have our due diligence to follow. Kudos to putting the pressure on Diebold but let's try to lead by example shall we?

Huge company

[nurb432]

Not defending them, but Diebold makes a LOT of ATM machines..

So many, you have most likely used one, if you use an ATM in the states..

Re:Huge company

[DroopyStonx]

Well, that might be great and all, but why should we trust them with the election process?

At least when ATMs screw up you can get your money back.

It's not so easy when a whole election is botched because of some error.

At least with ATMs you can spot discrepencies in any transaction... it's your receipt, your statement, etc... how do we know for 100% certain that this company will handle these votes in a proper manner?

Re:Huge company

[Kenja]

Nope. Many Diebold ATM systems are unpactched Windows XP installs with a internet connection and no firewall. Here are some images someone setup as an MP3 player after it crashed to the desktop.

Re:Huge company

[back_pages]

The difference between an ATM and vote counting is that with an ATM, the corporation has a vested interest in making sure the accounting is done properly. In vote counting, the individual has a vested interest in making sure the accounting is done properly.

When we're placing votes on the Diebold machine, WE are the bank, except we are kept as far away from the accounting as possible. You try working that arrangement out with the bank. You ask for $100, they let you into the vault, and you show them the $100 bill when you leave.

They can trust ya!

The fact that Diebold makes a lot of ATMs does not make the electronic voting idea valid. They might be the most qualified to make the machines, but the idea is not sound.

WORM - we've heard of it

[SlowMovingTarget]

Why is it so hard for these people to implement Write-Once Read-Many? Burn the vote(s) onto optical media and be done with it. When the media fills up, replace it and transport the media (you made three or more copies of the same disk, right?) by different routes accompanied by security officers. Look Ma! No network!

This business of sloshing this incredibly sensitive data around on networks is completely irresponsible.

Doesn't avoid the issue of having a "central tabulator" designed for manipulation, but you can easily design a tabulator (or better, multiple independent tabulators) that you can prove to be free of back doors, given that the source is available.

Black Box Voting will show you how to cheat. B-)

[Ungrounded Lightning]

Public officials: If you are in a county that uses GEMS 1.18.18, GEMS 1.18.19, or GEMS 1.18.23, your secretary or state may not have told you about this. You're the one who'll be blamed if your election is tampered with. Find out for yourself if you have this problem: Black Box Voting will be happy to walk you through a diagnostic procedure over the phone. [Contact information here.]

Public officials: If you have these versions of the software, the votes can be tampered with by this simple procedure. Black box voting will be happy to give you a short course in how to rig your election.

Reminds me of the official corruption in Daily's Chicago - which was the "City that Works" largely because ANYBODY could bribe the officials equally.

By exposing this flaw and showing every election clerk who asks how to cheat, Black Box Voting is insuring that the vulnerable software WILL be used to cheat, and that elections WILL be rigged until the audit trails are installed and used.

I can think of nothing that will create a bigger push for audit trails on electronic voting than showing every election official in the US how to stuff the ballot boxes at this wholesale, vote-tabulation level. B-)

I other news...

[Pan T. Hose]

I other news, the novel innovation of marking "X" on a piece of paper found invulnerable against this exploit. Film at 11!

Re:Election Stealing

[Izago909]

Lemme guess. This is all about how the Republicans are going to steal the election... Again.

Insecure Republicans with superiority complex's always give my the best laughs. No, this is not about some vast liberal conspiracy theory. This is about someone with a bit of computer knowledge subverting the elections. Imagine your suprise if you woke one day to realize Calero won the election.

A big deal, but not really.

[ayeco]

Sure, it's horrifying to see that someone could cheat, and most likely someone will try, but the polls have both parties monitoring, counting, and watching the process. Announcing the fact that the machines aren't fool proof or perfect is a wonderful thing for the process - aka more eyes will be watching and helping protect our election process.

These problems will be fixed, but there will always be voter fraud (ie dual voting - The paper found that 68 percent of the dual registrations are Democrats, 12 percent are Republicans, and 16 did not claim a party).

Florida, anyone?

[Noryungi]

Exit polls, 2004 US presidential election:

• Georges W. Bush: 43.25%
• John Kerry: 44.70%

Official results of the 2004 presidential election, once all votes have been 'counted' by voting machines:

• George W. Bush: 44.95%
• John Kerry: 43.82%

Since these numbers are within the margins of error, Bush is not going to need the Supreme Court this time.

It sounds like something from a Mastercard joke:

• New voting machines for everyone: $ 2.2 million per state.
• Financing smear groups to attack John Kerry: $ 1.75 million.
• Winning an election: Priceless.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Re:Florida, anyone?

[DAldredge]

"# Financing smear groups to attack John Kerry: $ 1.75 million."

Do you get this worked up over 527's like moveon.org?

Re:Florida, anyone?

[lavaface]

Moveon is NOT a 527. It's a PAC, and is thus governed by more stringent regulations. Also, moveon gets most of it's funding from grassroots fundraising, while the Swiftboat liars are primarily funded by wealthy Texans who have close links to Bush. Jeebus, what are mods smokin' to rate this +4 Informative?

Why must negative motives ALWAYS be ascribed?

[daveschroeder]

If you've been following this, and RTFA, you'd know this is an extremely complicated situation, both from a technical standpoint, and a management one. There are hundreds of people at various levels of local government, contractors, Diebold, temporary agencies, printing companies, and other entities that have, as a matter of course, various levels of access to the voting infrastructure, including the GEMS software itself.

That isn't to say that we shouldn't answer these questions - DEMAND answers - and do EXACTLY what we should be doing, which is holding officials responsible for our elections accountable in every way. But must we attribute exclusively conspiratorial ulterior motives to this, straight away? This isn't about Bush or Rove or Cheney or Ashcroft. It's about the integrity of ALL of our elections, under all circumstances. Don't pretend that only one side wants to win.

Re:Why must negative motives ALWAYS be ascribed?

[Kenja]

"Why must negative motives ALWAYS be ascribed?"

Lets see, a company whos leader claims to want to reform the US as a theocracy and has sworn to give the ellection to George Bush has a product used for e-voting that has a "feature" (sorry, this is not a bug) that allows someone to rig an election. Gee, I have no idea why anyone whould think this was anything negative.

Re: Why must negative motives ALWAYS be ascribed?

[Cid Highwind]

"I am committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year." --Walden O'Dell, CEO Diebold Inc.

Untwist your knickers. If he had said something about helping to "defeat Bush" or whetever, it would all be an evil left-wing conspiracy instead.

Florida and their e-voting problem

[BadluckShleprock]

Back in 2002, Miami-Dade had an election using touch-screen voting. In some circumstances there were more votes than registered voters, and in at least one instance an entire day's votes in one machine were "accidentally" erased. No paper backup means the votes were lost in the ether.

Since each state is responsible for operating the voting process, you'd think that Jeb Bush (the Governor) and former Orlando Mayor and now Secretary of State Glenda Hood would have been outraged. Jeb's reply was "why can't Democrats learn how to vote?". Glenda Hood's response was "that doesn't mean that we need to have a paper trail." She has this big bug up her ass that printed receipts would cause a repeat of the 2000 debacle when in reality the 2000 debacle was 100% caused by the old punch cards being difficult to scan. A paper printout would simply be a way to recount votes that aren't up to speculation by the person doing the recount (i.e. they know exactly which votes are cast.)

P.S. Diebold Sucks!

Why this is scary

[tedit]

While a lot of people will say that screaming about insecure voting machines is a bunch of FUD, I think there is a legitimate reason to be far more scared of insecurities in digital voting than in the traditional kind. The nice thing about paper/punchcards/crayon is that the scale of fraud is limited by the physical nature of the medium. It's tough to dispose of a lot of votes without anyone noticing a precinct is missing, and it's difficult to make much of a differece forging individual ballots. The problem with electronic voting is that like every other industry that's gone digital (accounting to spreadsheets for example), the scale and efficiency of mundane tasks is amplified by many orders of magnitude. It's tough to make much of a dent in an election by registering under ten names and voting ten times. It's easy (if you have an exploit) to to click once to change 10,000 votes in a manner that looks utterly plausible. So for all the talk of just giving red meat to the media to have another thing to panic about, I'd say why the heck can't we force Florida to print paper reciepts?

Why reprogrammable computers?

[gorehog]

I asked this before and am going to ask again.

Why do we insist on using voting computers which are reprogrammable. These are all Von Neumann architecture machines. As computer scientists we should be able to find a more appropriate architecture for voting. Something where the code is not alterable, something where the counts are not chanegable.

Think about it. And if you dont understand the question then learn about computing architecture. There are computers other than the multi purpose kind. They tend to be single purpose and far more efficient at their designed jobs.

Re:Why reprogrammable computers?

[DunbarTheInept]

Your suggestion is an excellent idea, but a fix similar to what you suggest that has all the same benefits can still be done on a Von Neumann machine - just make it so that the software program is burned in a chip instead of loaded from disk - that's how most allegedly "non-programmable" computers these days are made anyway.

Re:Election Stealing

[LMCBoy]

It's about how someone will steal the election... It's not our fault that everyone immediately jumps to the Republicans as the theives.

Let's not pretend that Diebold is non-partisan, okay?

To which party is Walden O'Dell (Diebold CEO) a major fundraiser? To which party does Diebold itself make large contributions? Of which candidate did O'Dell say: "I am committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to [candidate] next year", in 2003?

It's not exactly a stretch to guess which party Diebold would attempt to swing the election toward, if given the opportunity. Oh wait, they already gave themselves the opportunity!

Diebold at it again?

[Reene]

I keep wondering when the states are finally going to give Diebold the proverbial finger. This isn't the first time this sort of thing has happened with Diebold machines and it probably won't be the last. A quick search on The Register reveals that this sort of thing has been going on for quite some time. Among several concerning incidents from 2003:

The Oakland Tribune reported last week that several thousand voters in Alameda County used electronic voting machines made by Diebold that were never certified for use by state and county voting officials. Diebold altered the software running on the machines prior to the election, but never bothered to submit the software for testing or even notify the state that the software update had been made.

Come on. Enough is enough, you know? This kind of thing is too important to leave it to people and/or technologies with a track record like this.

Re:Diebold at it again?

[hawkeyeMI]

Yeah every time I use one of their ATMs I get really nervous. I'm not being sarcastic. Ever since all of this crap with their voting machines has happened, I've had to wonder -- how secure are my account number and PIN with them?

Dieblod Rep Conversation

[jxs2151]

I had a nice little conversation with a Diebold guy at the Maryland State Fair Saturday. The State of Maryland had a booth set up there allowing people to "vote", showing how "easy" it was to use the machines. I turned around and asked the guy for my paper receipt or some proof of who I voted for. He got real defensive when I suggested the that machines had been compromised. He tried to move me away from the crowd that was there, even though I wasn't being loud. I stated that unless the source code was open to inspection that the public had no way of trusting the voting process. He replied that the code would be held in escrow by a trusted authority- the State of Maryland. I laughed, and laughed some more at the thought of those who had the largest vested interest in the outcome of the vote being "trusted" to ensure the accuracy of that vote.

Diebold has a huge investment in this and sees dollar signs well into the future if their machines become the standard. Just think about how long the mechanical machines have been around. Diebold wants that kind of longevity for their product.

I am not against a company making money, far from it. However, making your money off the most important process in America cannnot be ethically supported. I left telling the Diebold guy that I enjoyed toying with him. He was left with a chagrinned look on his face, knowing that the road ahead is gonna be tough.

I was not willing to return and pay another entrance fee to bring materials back to prove this guy wrong so do me a favor- if you are planning on going to the MD State Fair, take along some materials to back up your arugment and take some potshots at the Diebold guys.

Re:Dieblod Rep Conversation

[Lost2Home]

I stated that unless the source code was open to inspection that the public had no way of trusting the voting process.

Why do people always bring up the source code has to be open. Open source has absolutely nothing to do with this issue.

This isn't a binary you are going to build and install on your home computer, you have no way of knowing that the source code in escrow was used to build the binaries on the voting machine. In fact, Diebold has been repeatedly caught installing uncertified software on voting machines used in elections.

The real solution is providing the voter with a printed ballot showing who their vote will be counted for - then having the municipality store that ballot for use in any required recounts. Without ballots outside the voting machines, there is no protection from malfunctions or deliberate malfeasance.

Look what happened at Venezuelan elections!!!!

[josevnz]

Venezuela was the victim of one of the bigges frauds in its history, thanks to the electronic voting machines provided by a company called 'Smartmatic'.

Americans (and the rest of the world) should learn about what just happened in Venezuela; The real chances to prove than there was a fraud are minimal.

Here are some articles you can red to get more informed about the problem:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/847151 7. htm
http://news.phaseiii.org/article3109.html
ht tp://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/8/20 /131240.shtml
http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/07 04/158551.html
http://gnosis.python-hosting.com/v oting-project/Ju ne.2004/0259.html

Hopefully things like this will never happen in the US.

Re:Look what happened at Venezuelan elections!!!!

[dcam]

Excuse me? The machines in Venezuela provided a paper trail therefore proof of fraud is possible. The election monitors also said the election was free and fair.

Just because you disagree with the results of the election doesn't mean it wasn't fair. What is rather funny about Venezuela is that the US tried to topple the popularly elected president in a coup. He then gets reinstated by the people, and then holds a referendum with a clear victory. Democracy in motion, however the US disapproves because they don't like the guy.

10th grade coding project?

[SnprBoB86]

Ok so you present a login where the user enters a voter registration number. You show a list of canidates. You double click. Type "yes" to confirm. Increment a number in the database and set that voters "HasVoted" property to true.

After a 10th grader finishes that project, have a real coder step in for 15 minutes, throw in a little encryption and all you've got to do is run this bad boy on a palm pilot locked in a box and chained to a desk. When the votings done, ship the locked up palm pilot off to some goverment facility where the data will be merged into a master database.

Wheres the challenege? I feel like I could make THE BEST VOTING SYSTEM EVER in one weekend and make it rich off government contracts...

Re:10th grade coding project?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your deluding yourself. I'm no expert, but I can think of at least a dozen things off the top of head that come up, and you're no were near close to addressing these in 15 minutes. And no, I don't want to put the fate of our country in the hands of a 10th grader and 15 minutes of a "real coders" time....

1) How is redundancy achieved, what if the box crashes in the middle of vote?
2) How do you audit? What if a recount is needed, do you have a paper record?
3) Your choice of a palm pilot, what about blind, eldery or otherwise less capable people, how do they vote if they can't see the screen?
4) Speaking of palm pilot, exactly what type of database are you going to run on a palm pilot? Is it going to scale to a big district like in New York City?
5) How does the actual voting information getting into these things? Who is going to update them? When most of the election officials and volunteers without IT knowledge, how are you going to manage them? Where is the money going to come from to train these people?

I could go on.....hopefully I've made my point, but come on, if Diebold, a company with huge budgets and almost unlimited resources, not to mention years of experience in the "consumer terminal" market can get it even close, why would you think a 10th grader could pull it off?

Guess I know who I am voting for...

[Anonymous Coward]

several hundred times.

Demand UN observers for the election!

[Anonymous Coward]

In other countries were the election is likely to be bungled and/or falsified UN observers are often called in to verify the authenticity of the results.

I think concerned citizens should demand the UN make sure that we have fair and free elections.

Re:Demand UN observers for the election!

[dagnabit]

Several congress critters have done just that, and from what I understand, there will be international observers here... I read it a couple of days ago on one of the media sites like CNN or something.

Not sure how many there will be, where they will be, what they are going to do, what authority they will have, etc.

Note - I'm in California, and have already requested my absentee ballot. I did use the touchscreen systems in the primary - they seem to work ok - but I am definitely against the idea of 'lectronic voting.

Like someone else posted above, the main reason we seem all fired up about using a touchscreen is that it will enable vote tabulating faster, so that we don't have to wait as long to find out who won.

Personally, I'm fine with waiting a day or two (if it even took that long) to do it the way Canada et al. handle it... X in a box on a piece of paper, fold it up, and drop it in a box. Then when all votes are in at that particular center/precinct/whatever, open up the box in front of whoever wants to watch, count the votes out in front of everyone (ok, maybe use a spreadsheet or other "manual" tallying system), then call the county offices on the phone and tell them the numbers (ok, maybe email it in or something).

That's all there is to it.

Votes don't count anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

I suspect that a large part of the problem is that your vote doesn't really count anyway, unless you happen to live in a marginal seat. America is more a two party state than a real democracy.

Re:Votes don't count anyway

[ScoLgo]

That's right. The USA is not a true democracy. It never was. It is a Representative Republic. And sadly, the 'representative' part of that no longer seems to apply...

Hack them...

[DF5JT]

With all the security holes exposed in the electronic election gear it should be easy to hack them in such a way that any abuse can be made visible.

Log incidents, put them online and show the world that some very powerful people have a strong interest in these pieces of machinery being insecure to such an extent that the election becomes a joke.

Expose the vulnerabilities and use them to make it impossible to use to the advantage of those who have a strong interest in influencing the outcome of the election.

Why is it so hard?

[karmatic]

Why is having a voter-verified ballot so hard? Here is how to do right:

1) Voter selects what to vote for
2) Computer punches holes in a paper ballot, _and_ prints a barcode representing the votes on the ballot.
3) Counting machine reads optically, and checks barcode.

See? It's simple! The person can't walk out with the audit trail; if the ballot isn't presented on the way out, it's not counted. We already have optical reading systems; the barcode removes any reasonable chance of error.

100% accurate, can be checked by hand, can be done [relativly] cheaply, you can fall back on paper if the computers go down. Why aren't we doing this?!?!

Ok, I know the answer, but I don't have to like it.

--
Complete an offer, get a free Orkut invite, Gmail invite, and a copy of The Core Media Player Pro, to boot!

Shhhh

[AoT]

Don't tell anyone we have endemic corruption in the US political system! They might start gettting ideas and, gasp, start voting for other parties, or worse, get off their ass and really try to make some changes.

Shit, I'm an Anarchist, I'm for world revolution and all that, but at this point I'd be pretty fucking content with a government that doesn't put its citizens in what amount to concentration camps for smoking a fucking doobie. I mean come on!

What I really don't get is why so much of the right wing supports all the roll backs in civil liberties. Do you remember the clinton years? Ruby Ridge and other incidents should worry the hell out of you because there will be another Democratic Administration sometime, even if it isn't '04.

I'm aware of that

[daveschroeder]

And Diebold is headquartered in Ohio. I'm not saying it doesn't look and sound bad (and will agree it probably IS bad, and represents at the very least a conflict of interest on its face), but Diebold is a corporation located in Ohio. Executives at various companies routinely make political statements to the effect of helping candidates win geographic areas. Walden O'Dell didn't literally mean he was going to rig elections to "deliver" Ohio to Bush. (Unless of course you believe that he would unabashedly make such a statement and intend just that.) Do you think that a company with 13000 employees is going to happily and knowingly produce systems with the sole purpose of rigging elections? With all the talk about Diebold, you'd think that's their entire reason for existence. As voting systems become modern, can we agree that at least some company or companies will be involved with their creation? And that the persons who work within these organizations can and will have political views?

I'm sure someone like O'Dell saying something like that is just delicious fodder for people who think Diebolds reason for being is to hand elections to radical right wing fanatics. Please. He's a Bush supporter, as almost all corporate CEOs are. He, and everyone else, are going to try to work to make sure the candidate they want is elected. What if, for the sake of argument, he was a moderate socialist, and ran Diebold? What then?

Do you believe he's specifically and literally planning on rigging elections, and subverting the entire democratic process?

Not even the demo works!

[Deep Fried Geekboy]

There's a javascript demo of the Diebold Election System on the Diebold site.

Guess what? In Safari 1.3 at least, it doesn't work.

(Try voting for one candidate on each ballot, then on the next page, you appear to have cast no votes, confirmed by 'review').

Try it here: http://www.diebold.com/dieboldes/OnLine_Demo/scree n1.html

In other news...

[VeryProfessional]

It has been discovered that Paper(tm), a voting system planned to be widely deployed in the coming elections, suffers from numerous vulnerabilities.

A security assessment taskforce has found that the system, in which a stylus is used to infuse chemical dyes onto a thin cellulose-based wafer, is vulnerable to a Denial Of Service attack in which the wafer is exposed to heat until fully oxidised. This renders the results unreadable. Furthermore, the wafers are unencrypted, which makes them vulnerable to replay and other man-in-the-middle attacks. Another attack involves exposing the wafers to lateral force until they are compressed, rendering them easier to dispose. This is known as the 'scrunch-it-and-trash-it' attack, which was made famous in the underground hacker classic Election, starring Matthew Broderick and Reese Witherspoon.

Members of the security community are said to be flabbergasted at the general level of public apathy towards these vulnerabilities, which the taskforce has given its highest threat rating.

Sorry, don't buy it.

[CFD339]

1. You don't write test code to be hard to remove.

2. Once reported, you don't leave it in for a year.

3. Once public, you don't claim months of work to remove it.

It may have started as test code, but someone went to a lot of trouble to bury it. A company like this doesn't have a few guys each working from home sending finished code libraries up to the boss. Code goes through review processes, it sees auditors, and it gets stored.

this isn't the result of someone leaving in a line like:

if(keySequence == "rigthevote") voteCount.replaceWithHackable ;

-- just my opinion here, but commenting something like that out wouldn't be a multi-year issue.

Re:Captain Obvious Strikes Again

[Deep Fried Geekboy]

A huge scandal is exactly what this Diebold fiasco needs, and nothing is going to happen until it does. Every ambitious local journo in the country should be assiduously courting sources in the local elections offices. Eventually someone will Watergate it. That's the only way it's going to change.

I know this because I was once an investigative journalist. You would happen upon a story that seemed so shocking it was unbelievable, and when you asked around, everyone involved would say "Oh, yeah, that's right, everyone knows about that".

In one case (abuse at a psychiatric hospital) there were 600 documented allegations of abuse which had been investigated. Not one had been upheld, because the evidence of psychiatric patients was held to be unreliable. When we exposed it, it became national headline news for several days and resulted in year long government inquiry and, finally, change.

But everyone already knew about it.

Diebold is going to blow up horribly and sad to say the sooner it does the better. People are not interested in potential vulnerabilities, only post-facto scandals.

Senator Hagel

[ortholattice]

There is speculation that the election of Nebraska Republican Chuck Hagel could have been rigged by electronic voting machines, but there's no way to prove or disprove it since there's no paper trail. But with purposely programmed-in cheats like this one it makes you wonder. Excerpts from this article by Thom Hartmann:

"Perhaps it's just a coincidence that the sudden rise of inaccurate exit polls happened around the same time corporate-programmed, computer-controlled, modem-capable voting machines began recording and tabulating ballots..."

Unfortunately "...if any of [it] is true, there's not much of a paper trail from the voters' hand to prove it..."

"Back when Hagel first ran there for the U.S. Senate in 1996, his company's computer-controlled voting machines showed he'd won stunning upsets in both the primaries and the general election. The Washington Post (1/13/1997) said Hagel's "Senate victory against an incumbent Democratic governor was the major Republican upset in the November election." According to Bev Harris of www.blackboxvoting.com, Hagel won virtually every demographic group, including many largely Black communities that had never before voted Republican. Hagel was the first Republican in 24 years to win a Senate seat in Nebraska."

"Six years later Hagel ran again, this time against Democrat Charlie Matulka in 2002, and won in a landslide. As his hagel.senate.gov website says, Hagel "was re-elected to his second term in the United States Senate on November 5, 2002 with 83% of the vote. That represents the biggest political victory in the history of Nebraska."

"What Hagel's website fails to disclose is that about 80 percent of those votes were counted by computer-controlled voting machines put in place by the company affiliated with Hagel. Built by that company. Programmed by that company...."

Get the news out.

[johnjay]

Call/write to your local news station. Upon checking Google News, only /. is covering this press release so far. The more informed people are about this, the more likely they are to complain. You might want to call your local congresscritter, too.

This isn't the type of esoteric security vulnerability that only nerds are going to understand. Your average voter will grasp the issue pretty quickly.

When trying to alert people to the problem, you may want to mention that there are serious concerns that Venezuela may have suffered electronic election rigging in the recent Chavez recall election.

Discovery Times Documentary: Ballot Battles

[KB1GHC]

If anyone wants to watch a really good documentary about the 2000 election, and the security of the 2004 election. I recommend a documentary called "Ballot Battles" on the Discovery Times Channel.

In part of this documentary. a woman who is against electronic voting machines (who isn't a computer expert) was googling a manufacturer of electronic voting machines, and she stumbled apon all the firmware and source code to all their voting machines, she downloaded it, and filled 7 CD's and brought it to a computer security expert, and they were shocked about the poor coding of the voting machines operating system. With this information, she was able to easily hack the voting machine, and was able to teach an 8 year old to do it too.

it's a really good documentary, check it out.

unfortunatly, i don't know when it will air again, i just checked the TV schedule and didn't see it anywhere.

Then they don't get it.

[tkrotchko]

You can't test a program or system of any complexity with some code in, pronounce it "good", and then take out some of the code.

Its new code at that point. Which is perhaps why its left in. If they take it out, then they have to re-test and re-certify.

But fundamentally, it shows that Diebold is, at best, incapable of understanding what it takes to produce this kind of code. It sounds like a bunch of junior programmers coding under the "direction" of a mid-level programmer.

What I'm surprised at is the local government accepted binaries from the vendor without (a) having full access to the source code (b) a mechnism to ensure the source code they audit matches the binaries in the machine.

When you think about it, the whole thing reeks of a company looking to make a quick buck and local governments too stupid to understand that they lack the expertise to judge this kind of software and make an intelligent decision about deploying it.

What happened at the Venezuelan Electons?

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you have a link that shows fraud? Or are you saying fraud was unlikely? The links you post, especially the latter, show a well designed system.

Things Fall Apart

[jefu]

From the poem "Things Fall Apart" :

The worst are full of passionate intensity
And the best lack all conviction...

But I suspect that that is always true - the best are by their nature capable of empathising with people on both sides of a question, and capable of seeing the logic on both sides. Hence they find it hard to be passionate.

True passion, I fear, probably comes from ignorance stoked by fear and testosterone.

Re:Things Fall Apart

[MarsDefenseMinister]

The poem is actually by Yeats, and it's called "The Second Coming"

Re:Things Fall Apart

[Anonymous Coward]

I first read this poem around grade 6 or so. I always remembered the opening lines....

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of "Spiritus Mundi"
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

Problem found!

[joranbelar]

The GEMS program runs on a Microsoft Access database.

But seriously, did anyone else shiver when they read that?

and JFK's whack.....

[zogger]

...wasn't a violent coup? Or do you think that a lone nut killed him, then another totally unrelated lone nut killed that guy as well?

I think violence plays a lot bigger part in our domestic politics (with bigwig insiders) than most folks want to be comfortable with. RFK and just sorta lately wellstone come to mind as well. Not to mention a heap of big dotmil guys who all apprently had "accidents" during the previous bent ones reign.

Re:and JFK's whack.....

[arose]

The store calls you when they run out of tinfoil? You must be a good costumer.

Re:and JFK's whack.....

[demachina]

Well it is a tribute to how easy would be to pull the wool over your eyes and the eyes of the American people that you refuse to believe its possible they were assassinated by powerful people and not lone wacko's and accidents.

I assure you there were a lot of powerful people that wanted JFK dead. The military was royally pissed at him for not invading Cuba during the Cuban missile crisis.

The powers in the CIA were royally pissed at him for denying air support at the Bay of Pigs and letting Castro destroy their little army. JFK gets blamed for the Bay of Pigs but the plan was actually hatched under Eisenhower and the army of Cuban expats was already formed on U.S. soil when JFK came to power. There is a chance that he was more than a little reluctant to go through with it which may explain why he denied it the air cover it needed to succeed and disposed of an Cuban expat army he didn't want in the process.

There is a chance JFK also didn't want to escalate Vietnam which also put him at odds with the CIA and the Pentagon.

Of course RFK was in the middle of all of these same problems so is it so hard to believe that the same powers that whacked JFK would whack RFK to prevent another Kennedy administration.

And then there is Martin Luther King. I can assure you J. Edgar Hoover hated King with a passion as did most of the white men who ran the U.S. at the time. He was a major threat to white supremecy in the U.S.. MLK alone was giving black people the hope that they could aspire to something greater than the next to nothing the U.S. had given them until he cam along. He was also a really vocal opponent of the War in Vietnam, both because he was a pacisfist and it was disproportionately killing black men. Black men had a much harder time ducking the draft while affluent white men like Geroge W. and Dick Cheney had no such problem. It is more than plausible that the powers in Washington whacked King because he was a real threat to their power.

And then you have Wellstone and Mel Carnahan. Not a lot of people are killed in small plane crashes in the country. The odds are somewhat stacked against TWO Democratic Senate candidates dieing in plane crashes in two years. Add in the fact that they happened at a time when Republican's were DESPERATE to maintain their grip on power in the Senate, power crucial to passing their extremist agenda, and a conspiracy is pretty ripe. When Wellstone died the Democrats lost his seat to the Republicans which would have never happened if there hadn't been a crash. His death helped swing power in the Senate and a LOT OF MONEY and POWER swung with it. The circumstances of the crash are more than a little mysterious. For example it is quite possible powerful people could lay there hands on an EMP weapon that would be more than capable of downing a small plane without leaving a trace.

If you recall none other than John Ashcroft was running for a Senate seat agaisnt Mel Carnahan who was also killed in a something mysterious plane crash. In this case, if it was a plot, it failed since Ashcroft sucks so bad he lost to a dead guy or actually his wife.

Re:and JFK's whack.....

[EvilTwinSkippy]

You do realize that the only way to produce an EMP of any size big enough to disrupt the systems on an aircraft is a nuclear explosion.

Small-aircraft crashes are a lot more common than you give them credit. Personal aircraft are often built from low-cost components, and are often not as well maintained as a commercial airliner. They are far lighter and much more suceptible to weather. They often carry one of each instrument whereas a larger plain would have 2 or three redundant units.

Re:Captain Obvious Strikes Again

[Smidge204]

So what really needs to happen is someone to rig the election... what do you think would happen if Bush got 500,000,000 votes in the state of Montana? :)

=Smidge=

Well, in Soviet Russia they used to say

[xyr0]

Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything. - Stalin

Re:HOLY SHIT!

[back_pages]

What's more is that I'm pretty sure it's not true. I remember reading (maybe in the Anarchist Cookbook or some other reputable source) how ATMs are connected via telephone cable to the "central headquarters". The 4-conductor telephone cable is not used in the same fashion as with the telephone system, however.

I remember reading that the ATM sends transaction data back to HQ, and if the transaction is authorized, a signal is sent on one of the conductors which is dedicated to the authorization signal. They were saying that it was possible to splice this conductor out of the wiring and - if you cut it at the right time - the authorization request would time out and the machine would give you the money but HQ would not deduct it from the account.

This was insecure, but it required you to fool around with the wiring (very visible) for a one-shot attempt (unreliable) and required you to have access to an account (very trackable). I may have munged a bunch of the details, but the gist of it is an accurate depiction of what I read. Accurate in reality? Couldn't say.

I can't imagine why an ATM would be connected to the internet. I'd imagine that every freshman in CS would consider that a disasterous idea.

Are you reading your own typing?

[Doc Ruby]

Yes, if O'Dell had said he was committed to delivering Ohio's electoral votes to Kerry, it would be an evil Democrat conspiracy.

But he said BUSH. It's an evil Republican conspiracy. Why don't you care about that? Why do you hate America?

Will history remember 1996

[capilot]

as the last year America had a free election?

Call Me Stupid...

[feloneous cat]

But if this is REALLY the land of the free, then why don't we allow those who REALLY trust the friggin' Diebold machines to use them, and those who prefer things that can be audited (recounted in Mr. Newsmedia-speak) use punched cards/marks on tablets, whatever.

We have the technology to put marks on paper. No, really, I'VE SEEN IT. Diebold even makes one!

I believe they call it an Aye-Tee-Em...

Feloneous

Um, did you read those links?

[flimflam]

Three are purely speculative, one is about supposed problems with the elections that had nothing to do with the voting machines, and the last is about how the machines actually do provide a voter-verified paper-trail. While voter fraud may or may not have occurred in Venezuela (frankly, it's a little hard to trust most of the news out of Venezuela for the last few years), if it did happen it almost certainly happened the old fashioned way.

(I lived there during the second election of CAP, and I remember finding with a few friends of mine a ballot box lying in a ditch about a week after the election.)

2000 election

[dpilot]

Besides, the chads in 2000 were sleight-of-hand, with differences in the few hundred to few thousand votes. Somehow they distracted us from the systematic disenfranchisement of tens of thousands of black voters by mis-classifying them as felons. The story I read on the topic, link lost, but easy to find on google, made it seem deliberate. But even if it wasn't, it was badly WRONG. Malfeasance or Misfeasance, take your pick. Both are cause for impeachment. Instead, the person at the top of the process is a Party Hero.

Invisible Ballots is now on torrentreactor.net

[Anonymous Coward]

http://invisibleballots.com/

http://www.torrentreactor.net/torrents/view_2283 2

Re:The main difference

[ibbey]

And Kerry, in the link that was posted, is saying he'd have done the same thing in Iraq that Bush did.

That's not quite what Kerry's saying, though that's certainly what you'll be hearing on Fox. In reality, all he said was that he stands ny his initiial "Yes" vote:

The U.S. senator from Massachusetts said the congressional resolution gave Bush "the right authority for the president to have."

If you remember, at the time of the vote, Bush was saying that we would not go to war until he had exhausted all diplomatic avenues.

Kerry went on to say:

"I would have done this very differently from the way President Bush has." He challenged Bush to answer four questions.

"My question to President Bush is why did he rush to war without a plan to win the peace?" Kerry asked. "Why did he rush to war on faulty intelligence and not do the hard work necessary to give America the truth?

"Why did he mislead America about how he would go to war? Why has he not brought other countries to the table in order to support American troops in the way that we deserve it and relieve a pressure from the American people?

"There are four, not hypothetical questions like the president's, but real questions that matter to Americans," Kerry said. "And I hope you'll get the answers to those questions because the American people deserve them."

Bush, on the other hand, even knowing that Iraq didn't have WMD's, still would have gone to war:

"Everybody thought they would be there. We haven't found them yet," Bush said. "But he did have the capability of making weapons. Knowing what I know today, I would have made the same decision."

So, how are these two indistinguishable?

Re:The Second Coming

[Lux]

Misquoted too:

"The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity."

I like Yeats' version better. :)

Elections are about TRANSPARENCY, not HONESTY.

[Anonymous Coward]

As a country that has such a long history of voting for our representatives, we have taken for granted the single most important aspect of democratic governance: Transparency. No democracy since the invention of clay voting markers has survived without this fundamental facet of the process. It does not matter if it is a pure democracy or a representative government. It does not matter if we use electoral colleges or parliamentary votes. It does not matter if we use clay tablets, punched cards or write-once CDs. What every election-monitoring group is designed to enforce is transparency.

Why? Because the loser has to concede to the fact that he has lost. We do not force the loser to lose, the loser allows the winner to win. "I lost in a fair fight. Better luck next time." The concession speech is just as important to democracy as the acceptance speech.

If a loser of an election disputes the results and the winner cannot defend the vote count, then the loser has every right to appeal to other means--in most countries, violence.

In the last American election, the loser disputed the vote count. The winner could not defend the results, so the loser appealed to other means--the Supreme Court.

The fact that there was no outbreak of violence (at least of any significance) was not due to the voters' acceptance of the count. It was due to the voter's acceptance of the Supreme Court as the final word in American government. The loser accepted the Supreme Court decision and allowed the winner to win. The voters (some begrudgingly) accepted the decision.

But please note: the last disputed election had something that the next one will not: chads--a paper trail--transparency. Win or lose, everyone had the hope that eventually, the truth would be known. It may take days, weeks or months to determine, but the truth would be known. The system would work.

Ignore conspiracy theories. Ignore corporate donors. Ignore programming loopholes. The threat of the next disputed election is the notion that even if the election is honest, even if every vote is counted, even if the outcome truly matches the intent of the voters, the loser will be able to dispute the outcome and the winner will not be able to defend it.

Imagine the turmoil if after the last election, over a million of the punch ballots had gone missing. That is what these systems offer. It does not matter who wins this fall. The loser will dispute the result and the winner will not be able to defend it.

As counter-intuitive as it may seem, Bush may be the most likely candidate to suffer from the paper-less voting system. If Kerry wins, I do not believe Bush will have much of a case for vote tampering as the systems are being used primarily in districts controlled by Republican party members. If Bush wins, it is very likely that the results would be thrown out altogether for the sake of another election. The anger pent up by Democrats in the last election fraught with claims of 'unfair' would be mild in comparison to an election that lead to charges of treasonous fraud. Nixon was impeached for election tampering and all he did was spy on his opponents.

Many comments have offered ways to counter the threat of the new systems and most them are good. Yes, it is helpful to point out the possibility of fraud. Yes, it is helpful to write/call representatives demanding change. Yes, it is helpful to create more transparent technical solutions (yes, open source is one option, but not the only one). In the meantime, the best way to ensure that 1.) your vote is counted, 2.) your vote can be recounted, 3.) your vote will not be disputed is to ask, NOW, for your absentee ballot. It is exactly the reason that both the Republican and Democratic Parties have started a "get out the absentee vote" campaign in areas where the new systems are being installed.

If the Supreme Court does not ask for a recount, they may look to the absentee ballot as the measure of voter intent. The next President may be elected by the voters that do not even show up.

Re:Nixon, anyone?

[DAldredge]

How is this.

* Harold Ickes Is A Member Of DNC's Executive Committee And Head Of The Media Fund And Chief Of Staff To America Coming Together. Ickes "Admits That He Occasionally Tells The Kerry Camp What He's Up To, And He Insists It's Perfectly Legal."
(Jim Drinkard, "'Outside' Political Groups Full Of Party Insiders," USA Today, 6/28/04; Paula Dwyer, "Why 527 Is The Dems' Lucky Number," BusinessWeek Online, 7/28/04)

* Bob Bauer Of Perkins Coie Is Legal Counsel To Both Kerry Campaign And America Coming Together (ACT).
(Jim Rutenberg And Kate Zernike, "Veteran's Group Had GOP Lawyer," The New York Times, 8/25/04)

* Kerry Campaign Paid Bauer's Law Firm, Perkins Coie, $360,244.28 For Legal Services And Other Expenses.
(Federal Election Commission Records, http://www.fec.gov, Accessed 8/5/04)

* Joe Sandler Is General Counsel To DNC While Serving As Legal Counsel To 527s MoveOn.org And Moving America Forward.
(Jonathan Groner, "Power Punch," Legal Times, 4/26/04)

* Erik Smith Is The Media Fund's Executive Director And Worked With Steve Elmendorf, Kerry's Deputy Campaign Manager, On Dick Gephardt's Presidential Campaign.
(Jim VandeHei, "Kerry Expected To Emerge From Battle Stronger Than Ever," The Washington Post, 3/3/04)

* Minyon Moore, A Kerry Campaign Consultant, Serves On Executive Committee Of America Coming Together.
(Glen Johnson, "Kerry To Press 'Environmental Justice,'" The Boston Globe, 4/22/03; Lisa Getter, "Kerry Aided By 'Illegal' Soft Money, GOP Claims," Los Angeles Times, 4/1/04)

* Media Fund Ad Consultant Bill Knapp Hired By Kerry Campaign.
(Thomas B. Edsall, "Shifting The Money So The Votes Will Follow," The Washington Post, 5/11/04)

* Kerry's New Mexico Caucus Director, Geri Prado, Is Leading ACT's GOTV Effort In That State.
(Michael Finnegan, "Kerry's Low Profile May Cost Crucial Latino Votes," Los Angeles Times, 5/3/04)

* The Dewey Square Group Provides Political Consulting Services For Both Kerry Campaign And America Coming Together (ACT).

* Kerry Campaign Has Paid Dewey Square Group $194,936.48 For Political Consulting And Other Expenses.
(Federal Election Commission Records, www.fec.gov, Accessed 8/5/04)

* America Coming Together (ACT) Has Paid Dewey Square Group $51,808 For Political Consulting And Other Expenses.
(Political Money Line Website, www.tray.com, Accessed 8/5/04)

* At Least Four Kerry Advisors Are Associated With Dewey Square Group: Michael Whouley, Jill Alper, Minyon Moore And Joe Ricca.
(Glen Johnson, "Kerry To Press 'Environmental Justice,'" The Boston Globe, 4/22/03; Dewey Square Group Website, http://www.deweysquare.com/, Accessed 2/5/04; Peter Grier, "How Kerry Turned The Corner," Christian Science Monitor, 2/5/04; Glen Johnson and John Aloysius Farrell, "Kerry's New-Look Campaign Relies On A Few Key Players," The Boston Globe, 1/9/03)

* Michael Meehan, Now A Communications Advisor To Kerry, Was Hired By NARAL In 2003 To "Oversee Its Vastly Expanded Soft-Money Operation." His Hiring Was "Billed As A Two-Month Leave From His Job As Political Director Of NARAL."
(Carol Beggy and Mark Shanahan, "Names," The Boston Globe, 11/21/03; Chris Cillizza, "NARAL Plans Big '04 Effort," Roll Call, 5/8/03)

Diebolds were made to be 'tampered' with!

[nietzsche_freak]

If you read TFA, hopefully you'd have caught this:

By entering a 2-digit code in a hidden location, a second set of votes is created. This set of votes can be changed, so that it no longer matches the correct votes. The voting system will then read the totals from the bogus vote set.

That isn't a bug, or some l33t haX0r exploit--that is proof positive that these machines were made to be 'tampered' with, designed intentionally with election fraud in mind.

Re:George III

[demachina]

It probably really doesn't matter but the dismantling of the Republic and the creation of the Empire will probably move along more smoothly under Bush with a Republican dominated Congress, and if the current Neocons reamin in control of the Pentagon. Its lost on everyone but Kerry and Bush have nearly the same position on all the volatile issues of the day. Both are fans of the Patriot Act, both support the Iraq war, Kerry is just quibbling on implementation details because he has to to keep the Democratic base happy.

I need to do some research on what happened in Iowa. I gather a dozen or so wealthy people funded attack ads that ran only in Iowa that associated Dean with Bin Laden and started his slide in Iowa. His slide in Iowa finished him before the media finished him off over the "I have a scream" speech. Chances are the Democratic nomination was decided by a dozen people with some money and well placed attacked ad, much like the November election may well be decided by a handful of Republican's funding attack ads like the Swift boat ads. As nearly as I can tell our government is chosen by a few wealthy people, with a few well placed attack ads, which precipitate a media stampede and the American people just follow the ring in their nose.

Its even stranger that Dean is a Yale grad too though I don't think he is Skull and Bones. It kind of shows how the moneyed elite that sits in Connecticut and around Yale had locked up the Presidency before the American people were even consulted.

And then Dick Cheney was also groomed for Yale but he barely survived two years there, his grade were apparently so bad he probably would have flunked out if he hadn't left voluntarily. Don't think he had the family connections George W. had to insure he got passing grades since he was as apparently as intellectually challenged as Cheney was at Yale. George W.'s grandfather Prescott was a former Senator from Connecticut, Yale's home state, insuring George W. would never be flunked no matter how bad his academics sucked there.

Re:Get your absentee ballots here!!!

[ClarkEvans]

Absentee ballots are not a solution. They are not anonymous, and anonymous voting is required to make sure that people arn't selling votes or involved in coersion. While some people may have legitimate use of this form of voting, they should have very very limited usage.

Connecticut, Yale, prep schools, etc

[jesup]

Having gone to these "elite private schools" in NYC and Connecticut, having an uncle who went to 1-12th grade and Yale with the elder George Bush and who was his roommate, I have to say that the idea of a Connecticut/Yale/Tory/whatever conspiracy is simply amazingly unlikely.

A lot of the people in these schools aren't that smart (though there is a pecking order academically, all of them have their share of the less-smart (or don't-care) legacy-types). Pretty much the primary determinator of who goes to these schools is who a) can afford it, and b) wants to. After those are passed, then legacies, academics, and other factors (attempts to provide a somewhat diverse enrollment, etc) are considered. Most have (through various scholarships, foundations, etc) a moderate percentage of "disadvantaged" students.

A classmate of mine was another of the Bush crony's kids: Doug Baker, James Baker's (former chief of staff to G.H.W. Bush) son. (This was 1977-1980.) Not shall was say one of the sharp ones in the class (hardly), but a good football/lacrosse player and partier. At my 15th reunion (1995) he had become a lobbyist (what a shock). Others I went to school with include JFK. Jr, David Duchovny, and various sons of very well-off businesspeople. There was a sizable contingent at boarding school from Midland TX around 1980; sons of oil men and the like (many of them like Bush, transplants following the money).

My uncle went to day school with G.H.W. Bush, then to boarding prep school, then to Yale with him. In prep school they were roommates at one point. Both flew in WWII, but my uncle was in P-51's over Germany, and unlike Bush didn't go back to Yale. He continued to live in CT (New Canaan), and was a stock broker and staunch Republican for many many years, was Chief of Police in New Canaan after got tired of hunting and fishing in retirement, etc. When G.H.W. Bush was running for re-election, Frontline interviewed my uncle about Bush's school days. One of my uncle's comments: Bush was an idiot. Almost all of it (including the idiot comment) was edited out. Today he's an independant who REALLY wants to see W go down in flames. He supported Dean in fact.

Which brings me to the comments I'm replying to. While in theory there could be a conspiracy by some nebulous east-coast preppy elite, the reality as I see it from having grown up and gone to school with many in Bush's circle is far more simple and easy to swallow - the Bushes (and most presidents, with the odd exception like Clinton) are from rich families, and those families have connections to other rich families, and draw on them for their closest advisors and supporters. A lot of these people get into prestigious schools, colleges, and jobs via family connections and history (legacies). Not everyone in these schools does, in fact it's probably a minority nowadays, but it was and still is common in many of them if not most.

These people are rich, they go to school mostly with other upper-middle-class or rich people, and they form friendships for life with the people they went to school with (and often with others of similar backgrounds, which is hardly unique). This applies to the majority of politicians, especially at the upper levels. It takes money and even more so connections to get to elected office, especially high office (and promises for a lot of back-scratching).

This isn't to say that none of them do bad/questionable things - hardly. Many do. But as others I'm sure have said here, never attribute to malice (or conspiracy) what is adequately explained by stupidity (or just plain normal social class cliquiness (sp)). Honestly, these people _aren't_ smart enough to pull such a huge conspiracy (let alone for so long) off.

p.s. While I attended these schools and have a long family history associated with them, I was not one of the "rich" kids or legacies - my mother was director of development at one (which got us in, free I think), and the other I went to not as a legacy, though my father and grandmother did pay for it. I'd be considered probably one of the middle/upper-middle class students with a family tradition of prep schools.

Re:Connecticut, Yale, prep schools, etc

[mattkime]

never attribute to malice (or conspiracy) what is adequately explained by stupidity

...as much as i agree with that, should we really define a difference between what is evil through stupidity and what is evil through conspiracy?

I'm not saying that the republicans stole the election in florida. But could they steal it with enough installed Diebold machines? Looks pretty easy to me. Thats not a conspiracy theory - thats Diebold looking for americans to not care how their votes are counted.

Most of what you describe to me above is a long explanation of why we need to be more distrustful of ties between government and business. How can so many people be trustful of a VP that is pouring money into his former company? Perhaps at this point he's not directly benefiting, but i bet he left behind a few friends that are rather well taken care of.

Electing these people simply continues an aggregation of power into the hands of the wealthy.

(I guess I feel your post makes these people look more innocent when from many perspectives they're causing some serious damage in the world.)

A Discourse on Computerized and Electronic Voting

[SlashCrunchPop]

For many years now Bruce Schneier has been writing on this topic extensively and since I share his views I decided to put together the most relevant excerpts from his excellent Crypto-Gram newsletter and let them speak for themselves. If you really want to get up to speed on this topic, this is what you've been looking for.

Crypto-Gram: September 15, 2003 :: News:

Interesting report on the security of Diebold's voting machines. Scary stuff, especially if you consider that these are already being purchased for use in U.S. elections.
http://avirubin.com/vote.pdf

Crypto-Gram: October 15, 2003 :: News:

Despite admitting that Diebold voting machines have a high risk of compromise, the state of Maryland is going to buy them:
http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,60583,00 .html

Crypto-Gram: December 15, 2003 :: Computerized and Electronic Voting:

There are dozens of stories about computerized voting machines producing erroneous results. Votes mysteriously appear or disappear. Votes cast for one person are credited to another. Here are two from the most recent election: One candidate in Virginia found that the computerized election machines failed to register votes for her, and in fact subtracted a vote for her, in about "one out of a hundred tries." And in Indiana, 5,352 voters in an district of 19,000 managed to cast 144,000 ballots on a computerized machine.

These problems were only caught because their effects were obvious--and obviously wrong. Subtle problems remain undetected, and for every problem we catch--even though their effects often can't be undone--there are probably dozens that escape our notice.

Computers are fallible and software is unreliable; election machines are no different than your home computer.

Even more frightening than software mistakes is the potential for fraud. The companies producing voting machine software use poor computer-security practices. They leave sensitive code unprotected on networks. They install patches and updates without proper security auditing. And they use the law to prohibit public scrutiny of their practices. When damning memos from Diebold became public, the company sued to suppress them. Given these shoddy security practices, what confidence do we have that someone didn't break into the company's network and modify the voting software?

And because elections happen all at once, there would be no means of recovery. Imagine if, in the next presidential election, someone hacked the vote in New York. Would we let New York vote again in a week? Would we redo the entire national election? Would we tell New York that their votes didn't count?

Any discussion of computerized voting necessarily leads to Internet voting. Why not just do away with voting machines entirely, and let everyone vote remotely?

Online voting schemes have even more potential for failure and abuse. Internet systems are extremely difficult to secure, as evidenced by the never-ending stream of computer vulnerabilities and the widespread effect of Internet worms and viruses. It might be convenient to vote from your home computer, but it would also open new opportunities for people to play Hack the Vote.

And any remote voting scheme has its own problems. The voting booth provides security against coercion. I may be bribed or threatened to vote a certain way, but when I enter the privacy of the voting booth I can vote the way I want. Remote voting, whether by

Could somebody explain to me?

[Bayleaf]

As an outside observer (I am British) who does not really understand your system, could somebody explain part of it to me. From what I have read so far, the November US elections will be tallyed in a number of States using a system that is known to be flawed. This flaw is of such magnitude that the result in each of those states is likely to be contested by one or the other of the parties involved (the looser). I know I would if I had invested millions in getting elected. Each query will result in a court case (where?) which will take time to resolve. Meanwhile, who runs your country? What effect would this kind of fiasco have on your stock market? Maybe I am not an outside observer after all, because what kind of effect would it have on _my_ stock market and my investments, such as they are!

Re: How would you know that? Oh, Fox said so...

[Darby]

No one ever prevented a recount and in fact the recounts proved Bush would have won under any possible scenario.

Wrong. The recounts proved that under any of the scenarios Gore requested that Bush would win.

If they had recounted the whole freaking state as they should have in the first place, then Gore would have won.

Just because Gore was a fuckwad about how he wanted the recount doesn't excuse the fraud and outright treason which is all that lead to Bush currently holding power.

MODERATOR MADNESS: NOT FLAMEBAIT

[hummassa]

Come on, discuss, do not moderate.
I would rather have you prove me flamebait, but you can't.
My point was: there was no black president; there was no black governor.
Come on, prove me wrong, get a black guy voted in the f'ng primaries and I'll get back to you.

I will offer you one closing argument. (Score:-1, Flamebait)
by hummassa (157160) on 2004.08.31 9:21 (#10116689)

Who is the black man who was elected president in the last 40 years?
Better: which black person was allowed to run for president in the last 40 years?
Ok, you do have /some/ black mayors. Did you have any black governors in the last 40 years?
If so, how many, how many terms? If said number is > 0, divide it by 500 (number of governor terms in the last 40 years?) and give me a percentage. Now compare it with the percentage of black people in the USofA.
Ok, rinse and repeat for the last 20 years (allowing a 20 year period for the racial thing to "settle"... notwithstanding the LA riots were in '92).
The prosecutions rests.

Just vote

[holysin]

Um, unless I missed something in the news, California has a REPUBLICAN gov. In fact, I believe he's speaking at the RNC... admittedly he's only slightly more republican then Kennedy... but for some reason, the RNC doesn't want us normal people to focus on the gay marriage ban that bush has pushed with every ounce of strength.

As far as NY, NY has a republican gov. AND NYC has a republican mayor. You might have heard of him? Very wealthy guy, could buy and sell /.?

Bitching creates a lot of noise, voting creates change (albeit slowly). get off your ass and vote. The last presidential election was decided by 35% of the (total) population. That's not right. Register to vote, and VOTE people, perhaps if people stopped whining about their votes not counting, and actually voted some of these red and blue states would switch colors. As the guy from hardball said on Bill Maher, go vote, not for the person, but for where you want America to be in 20 years. If you are happy with the go it alone cowboyness of GW, then by all means vote for him. if you believe that exporting our jobs, and importing foreign products is good for us, then vote for him. if you want someone who will work with our allies and treat the rest of the world with respect (not just the parts that agree with us) then vote for Kerry. Just *VOTE*. Think about where you want to be and then act accordingly. It takes a lot for Americans to wake up, but once we do. Watch out. I'll refrain from preaching as to which way you SHOULD vote, but for god's sake vote.