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Neopets Gambling Controversy
To "feed" their pets, Neopets players have to win points in a variety of mini-games, including versions of poker and blackjack. Australia has a high rate of gambling problems with poker machines ("pokies"), so when a mother discovered her nine-year-old playing online poker to feed his virtual pet, she approached Today Tonight claiming McDonalds was setting her son up for a life of gambling addiction.
TT aired the story Parents not McHappy over pokie toy and the Neopets message boards went nuts. Meanwhile McDonalds heavied Neopets into banning Australians from the gambling games. Today Tonight must have received a lot of hate mail because the next night came Neopet players fight McDonalds ban, featuring interviews with adult Neopets addicts. But this only increased the outrage on the Neopets boards - they're now trying to squash rumors of McDonalds withdrawing sponsorship altogether, and Neopets shutting down."
... featuring interviews with adult Neopets addicts...
Umm... if ADULTS are getting addicted to Neopets, I think, most likely, that's the least of their problems....
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
At least an 8-hour poker and blackjack session is a good way to keep the kids from viewing hardcore pornography or reading slashdot.
I guess we should take dreidels and dice away from all kids. So much for monopoly....
"The idea is that you play punting games to keep your Neopet fed and healthy. If you don't gamble, or worse, lose on the punt, your Neopet starves or is sent off to an orphanage."
Karl Marx and Charles Dickens wrote about that before MacDonalds worked it out.
Parents not McHappy over pokie toy
Funny...whenever I show children my "pokie" toy, the parents aren't too thrilled either...
Neopets is insidious because it provides "challenges" that appear to require students' problem-solving abilities. Its more like video-game crack since it combines elements that fascinate both girls and boys, youngters and adults: community-building chats, personal vendettas (you can slam an opponent by name) as well as the usual eye-candy. My students (grades 4/5, "inner-city" youth) will go to neopets given the smallest opportunity. Fortunately I've just gotten our squid-server going ... say "bye-bye! Neopets!"
I've heard about this site before (I work in PR), but in the context of how advertisers are trying to hook kids on their brands at a very young age. The logic goes that kids develop life-long brand associations, so the advertisers exploit that with these "free" games. Of course, you have to register, and the advertisers get a chance to get their hooks in you. I don't really consider online registration ever to be "free." It costs you something in terms of time, effort and privacy. That's fine for me - and most of us here - we know this stuff. But what about the kids who think they're getting something for nothing?
Electric Monkey Pants
Video poker systems that take real live money to play will clean you out. These fake ones that they have to feed your virtua-pet obviously are set up with easier payouts.
Simply make the neoPets gambling area obey the odds of real gambling!
Little Sally won't end up with a gambling addiction -- her neoPet will simply die of starvation because she lost all her cash at the poker table. Now THAT's the kind of lesson that sticks with ya!
--
free gmail invites! join the club.
Geez, if parents are that pissed off about gambling, it's a good thing Neopets didn't go with players being able to pimp out their pets to make some extra cash...
If life is a waste of time and time is a waste of life, let's all get wasted and have the time of our lives.
...so when a mother discovered her nine-year-old playing online poker...
Perhaps said parent should have been supervising their child's internet usage? You know, there are only about five hundred million worse things an unsupervised child could be doing on the internet. This mother should be happy it was just neopets. Perhaps she'll learn a lesson here, but my [cynical] guess is that she'll just continue to blame other people/companies for her lack of parenting skills.
I got hooked on this for a while, playing with my daughters. We had a neopoint contest and it was good fun.
That site is pretty educational as far as I am concerned. Sure there is gambling, but there are plenty of other things too.
You can play games of skill to get your points and avoid the gambling ones.
The educational part for my family came after I won the Neopoint contest. (It was first to get 250,000) My kids lost because they did not understand how the whole Neopia thing worked.
Things we talked about:
Investments: How the bank was different from the stock market. What is compound interest and how does it benefit you. Keeping your money liquid vs tied up in investments and how that affects your ability to build wealth.
Marketing, buying and selling: Setting up a shop. How to make your shop stand out, what are people buying, how to take advantage of trends in the marketplace. Ripping people off and getting ripped off.
Gambling: Scratch cards, games of chance, how investments are similar to gambling and how they are different.
As far as I am concerned, Neopets is one of the very best sites on the net for parents to talk to their kids about money matters.
Highly Recommended, IMHO.
Blogging because I can...
"There's many, many different species and they're all based on real things, like a Lupe is a dog, a Scorchio is a dragon," Jacqui said.
Well, they don't play the Neopets games, but I do play poker, blackjack, gin (and other rummy games), pinnochle, and eucher with my kids. I guess I should expect DFS to show up and haul me away. ;)
Playing games, even games of chance, does not lead to gambling addiction. Being dumb as a rock, and thinking that you can win when the games are legally stacked aginst you, that can lead to gambling addiction.
Favourite quote from the response article
"There's many, many different species and they're all based on real things, [...] a Scorchio is a dragon," Jacqui said."
Hmm, I think they better pull this promotion, some people are having big reality problems here. Or maybe I'm not as familiar with Australian fauna as I thought I was....
Great, another parent who can't take responsibility to raise their own kid. How about you don't let the kid play the neopet? How about you watch the kid for signs of gambling addiction? How about you take responsibiliy for raising your own kid instead of blaming someone else
so when a mother discovered her nine-year-old playing online poker to feed his virtual pet, she approached Today Tonight claiming McDonalds was setting her son up for a life of gambling addiction.
Those are the wrong steps. If she, as a parent, feels that neopets is not good for her child, then you make this rule known to the child, and then enforce it. I fail to see what McDs or neopets has done wrong. I dont really understand the moral crusade, conceptually. Why do other people care, as long as its not hurting them?
So you think neopets is bad for your kid, then dont let your kid play neopets. Who are you to parent the rest of the world.
Meh.
no
They sent my site, EveryDNS a bunch of threatening letters to take down a site that discussed techniques for winning these point games.
The weirdest part is that these points have no real monetary value and yet I was being threatened with a lawsuit for providing DNS to another site that had information about their games.
It's always upsetting when someone tries to pick on the little guys like me but it's even more annoying when they have NO CLAIM!
I'm not even going to get into the fact that I wasn't the sites ISP or network provider. I was so far removed and acting only as a part of the infrastructure and yet because I wasn't a big company, they picked on me. Can't blame them for being smart I guess...
-davidu
# Hack the planet, it's important.
I figure it is the best way for them to learn the dangers of gambling. When you lose your allowance, well it hurts, but not as bad (I'm guessing here...) as when you lose your rent money.
We play Texas Hold 'Em, 2 cent / 4 cent, 3 limit raise per betting round.
You can easily loose a $0.50 or a $1 at the table, which is a good chuck of their allowance.
I figure it teaches them responsibility.
Sorry, but having an addictive game for kids to play poker and blackjack for more chips doesn't seem very educational to me. It's not like the 1970s where things were less stimulating but you actually learned stuff. Everything today especially dealing is so heavily stimulating and exploitive, it will just lead to problems in the future.
For example, when I learned math, I had exercises that I had to do with a textbook, pencil and pad of paper. It was boring, but I learned, and eventually learned how to study on my own. Nowadays, you need to have an educational game to make kids "learn". Tell me how this doesn't lead to kids getting bored from learning from an instruction book or during class? How will they possibly be able to learn to sit through a lecture without getting bored and not being constantly stimulated?
I'm now back in grad school after being out of school for 15 years, and I was astonished to see a 20-something kid playing his pocket Nintendo in the middle of a lecture. He's paying $2500 for this course, and he's so bored that he has to play a video game in the middle of a lecture? Incredible.
Kids need to learn without having all those flashing lights, adrenaline rush, etc, otherwise they'll grow up to be true ADD adults.
is there some kind of super insane overly conservative group of people breeding rapidly? It seems everwhere I look there is someone or some group complaining about things that are so trivial in comparison to things like guns and drugs in schools...
It's like "they" want to find evil in everything.
Ave Molech Setting
That "current affairs" show is utter crap. They sensationalise all sorts of mundane things just to get viewers to watch. Anything for ratings. There are better alternatives on SBS (another channel), but hey, no one watches anything other than channels 7,9, and 10.
Disclaimer: I'm an Aussie and disgusted with the crappy tv we have to put up with.
Jacqui Adams, 22, and Anita Esposito, 19, are just two of the thousands of adults hooked on the Neopet games. They're now fearful the site could be shut down altogether.
"There's many, many different species and they're all based on real things, like a Lupe is a dog, a Scorchio is a dragon," Jacqui said.
AAAAAHAHAAHHA! What kind of a response is that? Sounds like a 5 year old describing their Duplo construction.
Lupe is a dog, and Scorchio is a dragon! They're based on real things! We have a winner for today's "You're Not Helping Yourself Any" Award.
But that's not why. Their stated mission isn't to provide a fun game for kids to play, it's to maximize advertising revenue. They have marketing studies talking about children as though they're consumers waiting to be advertised to and nothing else. Their "immersive advertising" technique is horrible; most children can't even tell the difference between the ads and the game. In a nutshell, they're a marketing company with a game attached.
Some alcohol is good, but alcohol is bad if you drink too much of it.
Some gambling is good (I fondly remember many nights of penny ante poker with college friends), but gambling is bad if you do too much of it (e.g., interfering with studies or making you poor).
Drugs are good, but drugs are bad if you do too much of them.
Pretty much any behavior (excluding criminal acts, libel, etc.) is good or ok in moderation, but bad if you do too much of it. If you simply prohibit potentially bad behaviors, then how do you learn to act with moderation? Too many people have a "don't do it" attitude to most everything, which I think in the end is counterproductive.
...instead of blackjack. Then maybe the kids could've improved their math skills while getting to feed their virtual pet.
Besides, math skills will them in their future career as a compulsive gambler.
... of a child who has a "neopet," it's like anything else on the Internet that's aimed at kids: you, the responsible parent, have to know what your child visits on the Internet, make rules, set boundaries and impose limitations.
Any game of "chance" is gambling. The difference is the stakes. In Monopoly, it's fake money. Neopets is a point system. In Vegas, it's cash. With Microsoft, it's your data. At least with neopets, they're not telling the kids to take the "little green pieces of paper" out of mommy's purse. It's more like those damn tamaguchis...
BTW, I ROCK at Bilge Dice.
Responsibility is the punishment for compentenc
These parents and their BS groups crack me up. Really they do. They are so rife with double standards and hipocracy that I am certain if you ever put a mirror in front of them they would attack it for morally corrupting society and the groups demands to have a say in how they raise your children. Its never the individual parents fault for not paying attention to what their kids are doing, its always societies fault.
It's apparently okay with them to give out Barbie toys to little girls and enforce the stereo type that you should be a little prissy California princess with size DDD breasts and a 6 inch waist to be beautiful, but its wrong to give out some nice plush Neopet toys (they are really nice quality) as a part of the McDonals Happy Meal cross-promotion gimmick? Or better yet, its okay with these groups to allow kids to see and play voilent video games... just as long as it's cartoon voilence?
So I guess the solution for NeoPets is to sell this off as cartoon gambling? That way its okay because it works for voilence doesn't it?
Think what you will, but despite the very, very kiddy-ish graphics, the game has some very interesting and entertaining systems, most notably the Battledome combat system. I played it for about a solid year, and it can be very fun, getting different weapons and battling. Some of the expensive paint themes you can get for different pets are very cool, even to adults. So unless you've played it, don't knock it as just for kids. I guaruntee the majority of people playing are over 14-15.
I know nothing
You obviously didn't RTFA. Neopets is a vast online gaming / chat / community area. The toys are just marketing crap to attract them to that online area. The problem is the games and such involve gambling. No, it's not real money, but it's the same argument over violence on TV and Videogames. The intelligent amongst us can deal with it of course, but when the average child is allowed to view violent material from a very young age, it can affect them. Get it? The worry is the same about the gambling.
-Jesse
Nothing says "unprofessional job" like wrinkles in your duct tape.
So my girlfriend is addicted to neopets and over the last 3 years I've had a pretty good view of the site. This story is pretty much uninformed. The gambling games make up about 4% of the total games on the site. Your pet only goes to the adoption agency if you do not play with it and it gets unhappy with you, actually sitting there ignoring your pet playing gambling games will hasten this, but not cause it. NeoPoints (the in-game currency) are very easy to come by, and 15-20 minutes of playing any of the other 96% of the games the player has between 5-10k worth, which is enough to pretty do whatever you want for over a month or two.
So whats to stop the kid from going to yahoo games and playing blackjack there?
That's not so bad really.
After they are feeling the joy of being broke, a little extra work just might reinforce the responsibility issues while giving them some hope of that next trip to the movies with their friends...
Blogging because I can...
How do you teach self-control if there is nothing attractive?
Achille Talon
Hop!
It's not pointless. Put in your E-mail address and you'll receive lots of interesting messages about how you can enhance your sex life and obtain home mortgages.
Obviously nobody speaking out against Neopets has ever played the damn game!
So you have to "gamble" to win money to buy food to feed your pets or they'll be sent to orphanage? That's news to me:
a) Gambling is a loaded term. The selection of games are no different than what you'd see on any other gaming website.
b) Playing games earns you points, trophies, and in-game currency--if that were the only way to earn money then I'd say it might be a problem but it isn't. You can trade items, sell items in your shop, challenge other people to Pokemon-style battles, solve puzzles/riddles, collect interest from the bank, engage in their in-game stock market, hold auctions, or simply get it for free at the donation room(Money Tree).
c) Buying food is one way to get food. There are also a half-dozen rooms to find free food that can be used to feed all your pets and the room resets every day.
d) Feeding your pets is entirely optional. I've gone months without feeding them and the only thing that changes is the text indicating how hungry they are--don't feed them for long enough and the text will show they are 'dying' but that's it because pets don't die...ever. - period
e) You never lose your pets to the orphanage. You have a four pet limit and if you want to get a new pet you have to make room which is where the orphanage comes in.
These people need to get a clue!
Monopoly teaches good money management otherwise you go bankrupt.
:-D
My kids are into this in a major way. One of my daughters got creative with the system. She has a derelict account she uses as a holding entity for her neopoints. This allows her to amass huge amounts of points while her real account can be "on welfare". Great! My daughter is learning how to become a welfare queen and milk the system.
Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
For all their marketing, I just don't see that many Neopets laying around. In fact, around here they are hard to find.
I actually had to look in a few different Clairs stores to find a decent selection of them. They are not as common as the action toys tied to the cartoons and the kids get more education from the site than they would from the toons.
Seems to be a decent tradeoff to me. My kids could be finding far worse things to do. And yes, there are better things to do outside.
Guess I am one of those parents you had better be worrying about. My kids get the same connection I do. The catch: I must remain involved and I log their traffic.
Just knowing the log is there does more to reinforce good behaviour than any lame, easily cracked censorware does.
THE PARENTS THAT DO USE CENSORWARE ARE THE PROBLEM.
You have to surf with your kids plain 'n simple; otherwise, they are going to be adopting some one elses value system, not yours. This makes me believe parents who use censorware have a weak value system composed mostly of fear and ignorance. Baah....
Funny too, when they know there is a log, they will be happy to come and talk about what happened. This is always better than not.
I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but what the hell....
All of my kids are getting near straight A grades in school. No crime, no drugs, well respected in their peer groups.
Our family has no taboo becuase ignorance is weakness and places those that subscribe to it at a clear disadvantage to those that don't. Tough subjects are important to young people. They *will* get the information. Who better to set the primary expectations than you?
The real world is not always a nice place. Thugs, porn, disease, scammers, you name it, it's all there right? Who do these people pray on? The naive, ignorant, and fearful, and sometimes the unlucky. The net is the exact same way.
Being a good citizen means knowing your rights and responsibilities and setting the right expectations for those you interact with. Depending on other entities, to exhibit good behaviour is so totally passive aggressive as to make me sick frankly.
How to cope and make a difference in the world? Vote with your feet. Don't like the value proposition Neopets brings to the table? Don't visit and let others know why. That is your right and responsibility to do so.
However, don't ask Neopets to give up their rights too.
Everybody knows Neopets wants you to buy their toys. Instead of blaring their message in a passive mind-numbing cartoon, they choose to put up a fun, educational and interactive community almost anyone can enjoy.
What's wrong with that? Seems to me they are honoring their obligations as a citizen as well as they can be frankly.
You need to take a more active role in things along with just about everyone else that says what you just did. My family knows their rights and how to set expectations. When those are not met, we move on to where they are and let others know why, just as I did here. Making clear choices is one of the most important skills young people can learn. Empowering them to actually make those choices is the difference between future leaders and everybody else.
Sadly, the only real check on corporations today is your dollars. Vote with your feet early and often and talk about why to your family and friends. It works. More people should be doing it.
I don't mean to flame you with the above. Don't take it personal. This is important stuff. Consider my view and contrast it with your own and get something good from it. Might do you some good, might not...
Blogging because I can...
...Then the 1up machine in Super Mario Bros 2 was too, and a blatent one at that. I played that game constantly in the day and I dont have any urge whatsover to play a slot machine.
In Soviet Russia, Trojan exploits YOU!
Google "I'm Feeling Lucky" for "children exposed to violence at a young age". There are a good number of references at the bottom of that page to start you off. You might also want to try the "non-lucky" Google search for even more information!
It's almost common knowledge now that children exposed to violence at a very young age, whether it be on TV, Games, Music, or in real life get pretty messed up by it. Friends of mine who were abused at a young age often have to go to psychologists and take medication. I've been lucky enough to have a trouble and violence free life, and I'm just fine and medication-free.
-Jesse
Nothing says "unprofessional job" like wrinkles in your duct tape.
WHAT ARE YOU DOING?
Do you want slashdot shut down because WE ARE ADVERTISING SLOTS TO OUR 14 YEAR-OLD AUDIENCE?
An excellent point, it is the responsibility of parents to educate kids about societal dangers. I wonder if all parents have the same resources - education, time, money, community - to draw from in the process of regulating their children. And if not, what role does the various institutions that intersect children's lives have to make up any institutional barriers to protecting those children? Neopets is a tempest in a teapot, I don't really mind it that much, though it is extremely addictive. What's more troublesome is the darwinian / libertarian perspective of "let them sink or swim" with respect to things that threaten the well-being of children.
First, it was the Pokemon trading card game.
This game supposedly damaged our children in the following ways.
1. It taught them gambling.
2. It taught the theory of evolution.
3. It introduced kids to evil occultism and Eastern Religions.
4. It was a gateway game used by WOTC to lure kids into playing MTG and D&D.
5. It opened our kids up to be mind controlled by the Japanese, who would use our kids as drones to bomb Pearl Harbor again.
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
I've been reading Paul Graham's book, "Hackers and Painters", so let's take a different take on this. Here's an unthinkable thought, if indeed Neopets is introducing kids to gambling at an early age, then maybe they'll be better gamblers when they grow up! Afterall, the practical problem with gambling is being bad at it! My daughter loves Neopets, but since her computer is in my office, it's pretty easy to keep things under control. That's what parents are supposed to do, right? Still, if Neopets is making her a gambling genius, that could be pretty useful... ;-)
Of more concern for our Aussie friends are the extremely paternalistic proposals and legislation coming from down under lately. It seems that every other story here on /. lately is about something being banned in Australia. What's going on down there?
To the making of books there is no end, so let's get started
Way back when they tried to sue Neomail for the rights to the name Neomail, which they were using to brand their webmail service. The basis of their claim was that since they had 'thousands and thousands' of users, they had rights to the name.
My life is dedicated hosting
"To "feed" their pets, Neopets players have to win points in a variety of mini-games, including versions of poker and blackjack."
My 7 year old introduced me to neopets, and I quickly learned two things:
1) Food that you have to pay for is really scarce, no matter how much money you have, and
2) You don't need to BUY food.
There's a section of the site where you can find "donations", and maybe someone dropped some food there. There's also a spot where you can get a free omelette once a day. After I discovered that, I don't have to spend an hour a day just trying to find food. I play a few games (btw, they have some really entertaining and addictive games there), make sure my critter's not dying of starvation, and I'm done.
Come to the University of Mars! Classes starting soon!
Neopets teaches far better money management than Monopoly, Life, and similar games.
Neopets has an extensive market simulation, with over 10,000 discrete items available. There are many shops with virtual vendors, each specializing in a particular category of item. They have limited inventory, sales for special days, and you can even haggle with the vendors to try and get a lower price.
In addition, players can set up their own shop and resell their items at a profit. Realistically, larger inventories require purchasing larger shops. There's also a trading post, which allows for more complex exchanges between players.
Neopets has a job system, where you can employ your pets. Successfully completing jobs adds work experience to that pet's resume, and allows your pet to take on more difficult and financially rewarding jobs.
Neopets has a business management mini-game. Different materials are available to manufacture products out of, each of a different quality and price level. The cost of workers and managers varies according to their experience and college degrees. After production, there's store quality, making sure supply meets demand , and advertising to manage.
Neopets has a bank with savings plans. Like real banks, you get higher interest rates if you have more money in the account. Also like real banks, it can take a very long time to get your return to nontrivial levels. Keeping your money in the bank protects it from robbery and inflation.
Neopets has a miniature stock market, with 41 virtual companies trading as of the time of this writing. The stock market has quite a few features of the real stock market: companies have ticker symbols, there's a "Neodaq" index, companies can and do go bankrupt. It even has broker fees.
In short, Neopets is one of the most brilliant and comprehensive money management simulations available to the general public.