Slashdot Mirror
What is the Tech Jobs Situation in Late 2004?
CareerConfused asks: "Today I came across an ad in the NY Times, put out by Microsoft, Micron, Level 3 (among others) that claimed that the H-1B visa quota for FY2005 has already expired (it claims the quota expired the first day of FY2005, which started just about a month back). OK. On the one hand, we have
stories of techies not finding jobs; and on the other, we have stories from businesses which claim that lack of H1s is killing their business, as well as public advocacy (like that ad in NYT). So, what is it? Are we in another boom, with jobs going a-begging and companies requiring more H1s to fill them? How come I haven't noticed this in the form of a fatter paycheck (or an Aeron chair, or a fooseball table in the cubicle)?" What have you experienced in your searches for technology-based jobs? Is it still hard to sell your hard-earned skills or are things looking up?
While its one thing to claim that the lack of H1Bs is killing your business because Americans don't want to move to Fort Wayne, Indiana. It's quite another to say that you can't find a job in Silicon Valley. What's needed is an overall view of how tech jobs are doing across the country. What areas are in desperate need of technical skills and what areas are suffering from a shortage of jobs?
I'd say there exists a dire need for geeks with basic writing skills in and around Ann Arbor, MI.
Seriously, man, this paragraph wouldn't even earn a passing mark in a seventh-grade writing class. You write articles for a living--get it together!
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
Moved here, and had a great paying job as a Data Analyst in NYC within a week.
If I can do it... either you're spending all of your time just looking online (which is doomed for failure) or you just don't know how to properly search/interview for a job.
An employment councillor can help you with either problem.
I've spent about two and a half years now in a fairly stable job at a big company. I work with people I either like or don't mind, the work is sufficiantly satisfying even considering that I have to occassionally deal with big company political bullshit, the hours are reasonable and I (obviously) still have time to do some light /.'ing. All of this is a significant improvement over the
two startup jobs I had back in 2001 where the hours were insane, the
people were nutjobs and I was very, very unhappy.
OTOH, I've been more or less in limbo in terms of pay. Despite adding considerably to my skillset, I've gotten extremely modest raises that have more or less kept up with inflation if you don't count in gas prices.
Aside from that: Items like Aeron chairs and foosball tables and game systems in the break room and people keeping excessively odd hours can stay gone. I never liked those -- maybe I'm an exception, but I'm at work to *work*, I want to get my work done and leave. I'm working so I can afford to have a life outside of work, not because I really get off on plugging away on my TPS reports. The absolute worst part about all of those "perks" were that they slowed down the whole works and as a side effect created an expectation that you should live at work more than the 8-9 hours a day God intended. "Where's Bob? I need him to look over something." "Oh, he's playing in the Wednesday Tekken Tourney, he'll be out in an hour or two"...
Back to the subject at hand, though: The environment now is such that I could probably go make more money someplace else, but to be honest I am *extremely* hesitant to stick my head back out there after getting bitchslapped so badly last time.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
I'm pretty sure the submitter gets it, but doesn't want to admit it. Yes, there is a demand for qualified techies coming in on H1-B's. Yes, a good number of domestic techies are having hard times finding employment. However, these two items are not mutually exclusive.
See, managers wised up. They found out that you can either hire a domestic techie for 50-80k/yr or hire an imported techie for 25-35k/yr. As an added bonus, the imported techie will be thankful for the opportunity he has, and do everything he can to appease the management that hired him.
I'd _love_ to see a tariff on 'imported' labor. However, I'm not an economist.
Karma: SELECT `karma` FROM `users` WHERE `userid`=138474;
The Slashdot crowd needs to get over this "lack of IT jobs" boogeyman and realize that, yes, for enthusiasts with little non-callcenter experience, there is a shortage of jobs. But for professionals, with degrees and more than just an "I've got an MCSE book, I'm more than qualified!" attitude, there are quite a few.
Looking over the want-ads and monster.com's ilk, there are plenty of jobs for people with experience and know-how... But very few for wannabes and tech support layoffs.
Foreign workers tend to be well educated, dedicated, and happy to be working. American workers tend to be 'l33t h4x0rs' who think they don't make enough while being the first to head for the door at 4:30.
One change I've noticed is that XML and related technologies are getting bigger and bigger, and it's redefining what it means to be a web application developer. I feel like my skill set is being spread thinner than pâte.
Other than that, it's the same old situation:
1. Employers seeking ridiculously diverse skill sets. What do you want, a software developer with ten years experience, or a GIS specialist with database skills? Pick ONE!
2. Employers requiring experience or expertise in obscure software, but who are unwilling to train. (We're smart; we can learn your industry-specific database front-end for god's sake!)
3. Shops with a depressing preference for Microsoft and IBM languages and software. LAMP jobs and their ilk are comparitively scarce, and therefore highly competitive.
4. HR people who don't know what they want/need. The other day someone posted a "need" for a C# developer with more than five years experience.
So employers are feeling a crunch from the H1 issue. Fine, I'll take that underpaid position! Where is it? We've talked about this before, and I understand that employers are trying to thin the pool by posting stringent (or ideal) requirements, but I think it's getting out of hand and alienating worthy applicants in the process.
As for the relocation bit, I don't buy it. I would welcome the change to relocate almost anywhere in the world for a decent job. I would appreciate a system that makes it easier for employers willing to hire from a remote job pool to find job seekers who are serious about relocating. Monster's system is just too limited.
Companies claim they can't find qualified candidates, and techies claim above average unemployment. Since some companies seem to define qualified as either 5+ years experience or new graduate of an Indian tech school, they are being honest about not finding people who meet their qualifications. I would hope that every unemployed programmer, and everybody concerned about losing their job, will write to their congressman describing unemployment in the field so that subject can come up when companies do get a hearing to increase the H-1B cap.
I was hired to move away from Dallas, TX to Miami, FL with a $22,000 raise, an allowance for my townhome, and given my choice of a paid for new car or an allowance against my current car. Promoted from programmer to executive with some programming responsibilities.
::smiles:: Tough love.
I think people band together and bitch about jobs when they're out of work - and they're the only one's making any noise... those of us with jobs don't go around bragging about it, we just get down to business.
If you don't have a job... you HAVE A JOB: FIND A JOB AND QUIT BEING A BABY!
Yes, there is always a severe shortage of people who will work for substandard wages, locked into contract work with no prospect for advancement. Like H1B visa workers.
I think on the whole your luck will depend on your particular field, your degree, and most importantly your skill level.
I am a UNIX admin, 10 years experience, currently admin'ing about 1000 Sun servers. I am definitely a "new school" type admin, utilizing Perl and other tools to work smarter, not harder. B.S. degree in science/math field from large university.
I haven't found the market to be horrible in the Philadelphia/Delaware area. I think I've been lucky, but I have not ever taken a pay cut to this day.
I think good UNIX and network people will be in demand for the forseeable future. Not so sure about Windows admins and coders.
A year spent in artificial intelligence is enough to make one believe in God.
Certainly there are those who are looking for jobs, I don't deny that, but why does everyone think that being a techie in the U.S. is so terrible? Sure, talk bad about those dirty rotten scoundrels in India taking your $50K/year job.. those terrible job pirates can now put food on their table. How dare they?! I don't claim to be the expert on this, but I truly believe that there are jobs out there. Do you have to look hard and accept salaries that don't allow you to keep that 3 story castle you bought in the 90's? Maybe. Suck it up America, we have it pretty darn good.
Back in the 90's eveyone was hearing on the news and from campuses that the best (read as: highest paying) jobs were in the computer sector. They flooded the market. Now over the past 3-5 years the new students have been hearing "don't go into that people are losing their jobs to overseas" so they choose a different field. Thus eventually creating a need for more workers. So in turn when the salaries increase again and the overall need for workers increase once again there will be a surplus of workers and not enough jobs. Hopefully the students in the colleges now are in their fields because they want to do it and not because it will make them 100K a year after graduation. This way you get the person who loves what they do.
A bunch of Tech Stuff
Just to avert the usual avalanche of people saying "What do we need to do to keep these foreigners out of our country?"
The following actions can be considered and will be guaranteed to stop the flow of immigrants and or jobseekers;
Kill the economy. I mean really kill it - we are talking 40% or higher inflation here.
Start a civil war.
etc. etc. You get the picture. If it gets to the point where others don't want to live here then you won't want to live here either. Pick your poison.
Now, let's look at some figures for perspective. H1-B visas last for six years. They are also granted to people in fields other than IT. so, if we assume that 75 000 H1's were granted every year and that about 60% of those were for IT related fields then you would be fighting a total of 270 000 foreigners for a job at any one time. In a country of 300 million that is a statistically insignificant number. Offshoring - which doesn't involve any visas - is orders of magnitude more disastrous to your job security than any other person living in the US and therefore having to deal with the same living standards as you. So, can we please keep the H1 and offshoring issues separate this time?
Oh well, it was nice to have karma for a while.
Back in the 1970's, there was a big push towards automated coding. The idea was machines would be given a set of parameters and write their own applications, thus killing the demand for skilled technical workers throughout the United States. Fear and hysteria reigned, and I know a lot of people who left technology careers as a result.
Fast forward to 1997, when I was graduating college. For years I had worked as an intern / volunteer / gopher in various computer labs and become familiar with the major issues in computer science. For one thing, information technology jobs had not gone away, they had just changed to the point where they no longer looked like they did when I was a kid. On the other hand, some of the scientific coders were having to learn how to code HTML and produce graphics, which was really a strange thing to ask them to do based on their last 20 years of experience.
IT doesn't go away, it intensifies, and so to do IT professionals. My company, www.trellon.com, is almost unable to find qualified people to work on our projects. This is not because their is such high demand for workers we cannot compete, this is because it is tough to find professionals with the right mix of technology and other disciplines in their background. For every 20 people I meet, 16 of them get disqualified based on a lack of subject matter expertise outside of coding. (3 of the rest turn out to be exaggerating on their resume, and the 1 truly qualified applicant seems to always have some issue that keeps us from wanting to make him an offer).
I guess what I see is that there is still demand in IT, sometimes it just doesn't look like the work you used to do. GIS is big right now, I still get calls from recruiters offering insane salaries. OSS programmers are big right now, lots of people are looking for data warehousing solutions that do not depend on Oracle and SQL Server. Flash is big right now, and I regularly receive RFPs for companies willing to build RIAs.
Threads like this irk me a little bit because it always looks like people are waiting too long to ask the right questions. There should be some place where people can just ask what technology is in big demand and hook up with the resources to learn so they can provide a more valuable service. But fretting about the state of the IT industry is like worrying about automated coding back in the 70s - it's here right now, but all we know about IT is that innovation is forever.
M
The problem isn't that there aren't jobs. The problem is that there aren't enough smart people to fill the jobs. Companies have finally stopped hiring stupid people for jobs that require smart people. It can take months to fill a position with a talented engineer. My view on this is a little harsh, but the basic idea holds true.
There's a fine balance between being located someplace where you can find talent and paying an arm and a leg to locate your business there.
/. a little bit ago. I don't want to lose my job in, say, New York to someone who has a cost of living 1/3 that, because they don't need the same income to live comfortably as I would; our internal economic structure isn't prepared for a shift that dramatic quite yet (heck... look how outsourcing to other countries has taken a big bite out of many industries in the US).
I'm not sure which drives which (ie, talent pools where the jobs are, or companies move to major metropolitan centers because that's where talent naturally springs), but I can say that I hope it doesn't change that rapidly.
Just like that article about outsourcing to rural America that was on
Just imagine... lowest-common-denominator-pay based on cost of living... and you live in Chicago , New York, Los Angeles, etc., and I'm not just talking "tech" industry. The chaos of shifting property values alone would crush millions of people.
No, instead the burden on businesses needs to be kept geographically centered: you move to where the people you want to work for you live and contribute back to that community.
Only after we have a global standard of living can we successfully hire "best people for the job, no matter where they live."
Diplomacy is the art of saying, "Nice doggie!" until you can find a rock.
Businesses like H1Bs because they're easier to exploit. Just because there's lots of people begging for jobs doesn't mean that these businesses are lying when they say lack of H1Bs is killing their business. It could mean, it isn't that lack of workers is killing their business, it's just that having to pay their workers real salaries with real benefits is killing their business.
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
Well, if other places are like where I work, people are looking for jobs because they are tired of VPs who got fat bonuses this year telling them "you don't get a raise this year, and you are lucky you even have a job." They are willing to treat their employees like crap because the market will bear it. You can only take that for so long before you start looking. Because I work for a very large company, if the market picks up it would be a year or two before I would see any benefits from it (like a raise). Therefore, my best option is to get out as soon as possible. It may take longer to accomplish this because of the market, but that is what I am working towards.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
> "So, what is it? Are we in another boom"
You're not in a boom, or in a bust. You're in a plutocracy. So Americans lose jobs and companies hire foreigners for less money to help pay for those multi-million-dollar executive bonuses. You realize your annual salary is probably a fraction of what your CEO's office furniture is worth, don't you? In the grand scheme of things, your worth (my worth) is slightly below that of a desk and chair. Welcome to the new economy.
Every time I hear one of these stories about companies having a hard time filling tech jobs, I can't help thinking that part of the problem is the way companies screen applicants. I can remember a time not too long ago, when the problem was that the human resources people who were in charge of hiring often did not understand enough technical jargon to find applicants who might be able to do the job, but whose qualifications did not exactly match the description given to them. Now the same thing is still happening, only your resume or application is never read by an actual person - just screened for keywords and phrases by a computer program that understands the skills needed even less than the human resources people did. A friend of mine recently tried to hire a programmer, and their automatic applicant screening program decided she needed someone who was qualified to maintain underground storage tanks or something equally absurd and inappropriate. No wonder people have a hard time hiring qualified people, and techies can't find jobs.
Pretty consistent. There may be an oversupply of techies in the economy at large, but the H-1B supply is not constant, regardless of demand.
US immigration law "caps" H-1B immigration at a set number. During the boom, it was once 65,000 - high demand and low supply meant that employers couldn't hire enough people, and they bri^H^H^Hpetitioned Congress for a law that would raise the cap. That law said that in 2000, it was to be 115,000, and in 2001-2-3, it was to be 195,000.
As you can see, any time a politician attempts to choose a number for supply and demand and slam it into the market with the fist of legislation, he'll fuck it up, which is precisely what happened. The H-1B cap kept going up, long after the economic bubble that actually made these new employees useful had burst.
So what's the situation now? Well, just like in the last paragraph -- when politicians attempt to legislate the economy, they invariably fuck it up. The law that was passed to increase the cap came with an expiry date. So what happens - after the cap goes up to 195,000 during the recession? Why, it's Fiscal Year 2004 (starting on October 1, 2003)... and now that the economy's picking up, and demand is growing we... well, there's increased demand so let's... let the law expire and cut the H-1B quota from 195,000 back to 65,000! Cut the supply by 2/3! Yay!
And we wonder why our economy's fucked up?
Because even the most cynical of us would never believe our government would be this stupid, a link.
If you think that's fucking retarded, remember that this is the INS (now BCIS) we're talking about. These are the same folks that, approved the 9/11 hijackers their flight school visas SIX MONTHS AFTER THE ATTACK.
So in the grand scheme of things, the H-1B cap manipulations that seem to be legislatively timed for maximum negative economic effect, are pretty small potatoes.
Hmmm... never thought switching systems could elicit a 'Hell Yeah'.
The other route you could have taken would have been to become a DoD contractor. They tend to have fewer responsibilities, make more money in the short and long term, and rarely get deployed overseas into combat zones.
M
Sucker. Here's the real scoop. (Assuming Army)
Basic Training (8 Weeks): Rolling in mud. Getting yelled at. Pushups. KP.
AIT (8-40 Weeks depending on MOS): "Learning" how to do your wiz-bang commo-crypto stuff from NCOs who are so incompetent that the only place the Army dare send them is . . . AIT.
First Duty Station (1-2 years): Pick up cigarette butts. Run a buffer.
Second Duty Station (1-2 years): Pick up cigarette butts. Run a buffer. Do something related to your MOS on occasion.
Third Duty Station (remainder of enlistment): Supervise the picking up of cigarette butts. Teach FNGs how to run the buffer without banging the shit out of the walls and/or exhausting themselves. Do something related to your MOS fairly regularly. Be shit upon by NCOs for every little thing that goes wrong in the unit.
Enjoy.
-Peter
Aside from that: Items like Aeron chairs and foosball tables and game systems in the break room and people keeping excessively odd hours can stay gone. I never liked those...
I was going to post more or less the same thing but you beat me to the punch. I wanted to smack the submitter when I read him whinning about not seeing foosball tables making a return. All that shit was complete waste. Those days are gone, my friends. Here at slashdot we like to laugh at how stupid management is. But they are smart enough not to get burned twice on buying a lot of pointless shit like that.
I think it's time for programmers to stop waxing nostalgic about crap and start worrying more about how to make programming in the US (as opposed to outsourcing it) a valuable commodity. Time to start worrying about saving up enough money that you might actually get a chance to retire when Social Security collapses. Time to start paying more attention to whether a prospective employer has a solid medical plan rather than counting the number of foosball tables or arcade games they have in the break room. In short, it's time to grow up.
GMD
watch this
And I'm still waiting for the "racism" card to be played by pro-unfair immigration advocates.
Foreign workers tend to be well educated, dedicated, and happy to be working
Uh. Most foreign workers are illegal immigrants with little education
Nice generalization, though. Americans seem pretty well educated check here.
American workers tend to be 'l33t h4x0rs' who think they don't make enough while being the first to head for the door at 4:30
American are the best programmers and Americans are some of the hardest working people on the planet.
Nice try.
I've been a software developer for 17 years. Majored in now-all-but-dead languages (Visual Foxpro, Foxpro before that, Foxbase, dBase III+, QuickBasic, GW-BASIC). Am self-taught (i.e., no college degree) and considered well-educated and more-than-a-little intelligent by my friends and peers. Despite my actual competence, intelligence and enthusiasm to re-tool into newer and more mainstream environments (Java, for example), I can't get interviewed despite the abundance of jobs in and around the Metro Washington, D.C. area. I'm a little bitter that so much educational bias seems to screen me out before even talking to me. Want to go back to school at night but am looking at 5+ years of evening attendence before emerging with that sheepskin. This, to me, is of questionable reward: should I major in IT or something else? Who knows. And I'm sorry for tangenting off the main topic but I feel like sharing so... there it is! :-)
Richard (aka Merwyck, aka QuaDZeRo) I blog at http://richardharlos.com
The father of my step-children is in the Army, and is about to head off for his second 12 month tour in Iraq. He's been to Germany, Kosovo and Afghanistan over the last several years. While he has some great skills from being in networking and satellite communications, his marriage fell apart and his kids call me 'dad' because they've never really seen him. Everytime he's moved post, they've messed up his pay, messed up his insurance for the kids, or botched something else up. He often has little to no choice in where he is stationed because the technical field skills are not needed at every military base in the US (or abroad). Luckily he is near his kids this time (until he leave for Iraq next week), but who knows what happens when he comes back. If he's needed at Fort Middle-Of-Nowhere in South Dakota, then that's where he goes. All of this in exchange for being deployed in areas where you are surrounded by people that want you dead.
The military is good for some people I suppose, but after knowing someone this closely I can't believe anyone with a family would opt for that kind of life. I've heard it's better if you can go the route of a CO, but the majority of the armed forces aren't that high level. It's definitely not like the commercials on TV with soldiers jet skiing and playing golf -- at least not in my personal opinion formed by observing from afar.
Keep in mind that when companies whine about "not being able to find enough tech people", they are only telling you 1/2 the story.
What they are really saying is that "We can't find enough tech people willing to work at the wage we want to pay them (usually low) with the benefits that we want to give them (usually poor) in the location that we want to employ them (usually low rent for the company, but high rent for the employee - unless he likes commuting an hour one way)."
We have a government obsessed with moral values yet we allow this sort of behavior just so people can get jobs that born/raised Americans need.
I suspect you're misreading him. It's entirely likely he married for love or such reasons. His "If I can do it" is likely reminding the complainers that there are jobs available if they search. If he can find them...
Meh, or I could be the one misreading him, but I doubt jumping to conclusions will help anyone.
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
I'm still getting calls from companies in the Bay Area. The problem is that none of them pay enough to support a family outside of a slum. $80-100k is decent, but not when a "fixer-upper" costs $500k and needs $100k in repairs to keep it from falling down when you slam the door.
From my viewpoint jobs are few and salaries are dropping. Where I'm at now is trying to centralize SysAdmin work to Ohio to save on salaries, and layoff SA's in the data centers around the country. The positions they are replacing SA's with is a combo desktop/server support tech. In other words just eyes and hands to do reboots if necessary. Even server builds are being centralized and a traveling install teams to do the racking and cabling. My company isn't the only one I hear trying to work this way. The last place I worked did a similar move, they left SA's in the data centers and let go all SA in remote sites. Desktop support were the eyes and hands in remote sites.
So if your job doesn't end up going overseas, they may just centrallize it to a city with a low cost of living and just have generic techs in all other sites.
I can complie a Linux kernal, but don't know how to write a device driver. Willing to learn. Can you post the URL to the opening? I think many companies are unwilling to train employees (cost of doing business?). Also, companies are looking to narrowly in skills. They expect the whole to be filled completely. That's why they rely on interns and college grads. Interns are paid poorly to train up, then they get hired as a grad with the skills learned as an intern. Do companies ask potential hires if they are willing to take a pay cut while learning the required skills?
My group is not the group in charge of hiring; I do my own share of recruiting (mostly because both this is a great place and we need great people), but I'm not trawling for resumes. I also didn't post as a way to recruit people, so mentioning my company's name was not relevant.
And I certainly am not looking for 1,236,731 resumes to come in from Slashdot readers because "look! A job!"
An old firearms instructor of mine had a saying -- "You can never miss fast enough" -- to emphasize that if you do something badly, it doesn't matter how quickly you did it, you still did it badly. I feel the same way about hiring -- it'll take us longer, probably, to hire who we need because of the ways we're trawling for that person (mostly staying away from Craigslist, monster, etc and relying on personal references), but I think we're more likely to hire someone good that way.
You really want to know where I work? You really think you might be interested? Find a book review I've written for Slashdot -- you should be able to find my email address on it -- and email me. And, err, don't be a jerk. Because frankly, the job market's swimming in "I'm too l33t for people skills" people, and working with people who think that being technically right means they have leave to be assholes is not my idea of fun.
It doesn't make a difference if people are having a hard time finding jobs. It is still in the interest of employers to scream and kick and scratch for more H1B visas so that they can increase the labor pool, increase demand for jobs and thus decrease the salary they need to pay to their employees.
By that measure H1Bs will always be short.
At least in the Bay Area it seems like a lot of places are hiring now. Everyone I know that's actually good at their job is employed and most of their companies are hiring. It's hard to get a job but except for a couple years in the late '90s it's always been hard. The industry is competitive and you need some way to stand out. I spent a long time trying to package myself as a jack of all trades as far as design goes and got very little interest. If you think the programming market is flooded with unqualified people you have no idea, in 2002 I spoke with a recruiter who was getting 1200+ resumes for every design position she posted. It was only when I focused my resume and portfolio on exactly what I wanted to do that I got the job I wanted.
The times of being able to post "OH HAY GUYS I CODE AND STUFF" on craigslist and having recruiters trying to beat your door down so you could make 90k to write text parsing code were a fluke.
Good luck. I have a friend who joined whose MOS is as a lab tech - you know, analyzing biopsies and stuff like that in a hospital. They changed the specialty for everyone in his unit to "combat medic", redeployed them to Fort Bragg, and are going to be sending them to the middle of the Sunni Triangle. The window for deployment opens today.
Anyone who things they're getting a get-out-of-iraq-free card when they join the military with a non-combat MOS should seriously think again.
The *special* hell.
That requirement for exact, to 6 places, match on skills is a real pain. I'm expert, real expert, in multi-threading. That makes me a good general fit for OS developement, server developement, streaming video, etc... Take the last, streaming video. I don't have mpeg experience. Do you really need to have someone who can write an mpeg codec from scratch? Do you really think the streaming network protocols are that uniquely hard given previous experience in implementing other protocols? It seems that employers would much rather have a mediocre candidate with all of the skills than an outstanding candidate with some of the skills.
Employers don't know how to find people. Obviously your employer did. Oh wait, you had to go hunt them down. I see. So your employer didn't want to lift a finger to fill the job. I guess they lucked out when you came along.
Seriously, some jobs are being filled. The reality is that if you take both the online jobs and the newspaper jobs and combine them, it won't represent more than about 15% of the total number of jobs. But see, this is part of the problem. Employers who refuse to properly advertise their openings really should have no right to whine about the lack of people. Sure, some people will just walk in the door. But in places like New York City, there are way too many doors to go walk in where no one is wanted, so there needs to be some means to know which doors to go in, and not waste one's time.
Maybe what employers are wanting is a place to list their job openings for free?
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
That's because Houston isn't Austin. Austin is tech-oriented. Houston is just trying to be. Perhaps that's why Austin has a "silicon hills" and Houston has enron, NASA, and the shitty workplace known as Compaq.
Upstate Delaware (Wilmington, Dover to an extent... I assume you're referring to those) has some great jobs, but from my experience, a horrid housing situation.
I live in lower Delaware, 4-5 hours away from Wilmington. Got an offer from a place up there through monster.com, some insane deal along the lines of $19/hour to setup networks for various clients. Thinking this was way too good to be true, I gave them a ring to find out the details... indeed, everything they had mentioned in their email was legit, and if I could come in and prove my 7334 $ki11Z, the job was mine. I explained my situation (4-5 hours away, no car) and asked how long the job was open... the lady gave me two weeks to call back and confirm whether or not I'd be coming in. Had every intention of finding an apartment up there and moving, but alas, nothing worked out (choice of month-long waiting lists for barely-acceptable apartments, available drug-infested ghetto apartments, or gouging on one-bedroom roommates).
It all worked out in the end though, found a graphics job for a local magazine that doesn't quite pay as good, but it's local and seems to be pretty long-term.
The oil industry pretty much operates counter to the rest of the economy. They consider the 70s to be "the good 'ol days".
Here's one for a Slashdot poll. What is the general consistancy of the Slashdot demographic?
Do most have B.S. or better degrees?
What fields are they held in?
What average income bracket are they in?
Were are most located?
How many are single, married, or widowed?
Have children, and how many?
What is the average debt load being carried?
What's the average amount of time they've been out of work?
All the above go into making an accurate judgement as to how much salt should be applied to answers given.
The market is definitely firming as compared to the Iraq War period when the market was non-existent. But companies (like mine) are addicted to programmers in India. So hiring will be slow. One of our "senior programmers" has said "we have hired that special 1 in 100 person in the past. Now we want to hire that 1 in 1000 and surround him by willing learners." Person for person they are nowhere near as productive as Americans, yet, but they are still paid proportionately even less. I have to think that even in India the number of adequately trained programmers in not inexhaustable. Management likes them because they can be treated like a commodity, which they can understand.
I think the H1B program should be suspendended for tech in the US when unemployment levels rise to a structural level, say 5%. That did not happen in this tech cycle and there is still a massive excess of labor.
an ill wind that blows no good
I think that you are deluded. I've seen the hiring process degrade to the point where the manager gives a list of 10 allegedly required certifications to the HR manager, and all they do is use this as a check list to throw resumes away. It'll be rare that anyone will have the exact list deemed as required, so the next step is to start looking for foreign workers to fill the position.
End result, corporations demand more H1B visas, while American IT workers are flipping burgers.
Consideration for good candidates my ass! You may not have even been made aware of the good candidates that applied as they might have missed even one of those allegedly required certifications.
Until you are interviewing FOR good candidate and NOT a list of certifications will you even meet good candidates.
Goverment wants more tax, corporations want cheaper labor. Government wants non-refundable social security tax, corporations want disposable labor that can work long hours on the same cheap pay. Let me explain what I think is going on here, I have been a H1 visa holder for 5 years now, so there is some credibility to this. And to put it mildy H1-B visas are a legal documents for indentured servitude, a modern day legalized slavery. Slavery by Govt and Corporations. As far as tax is concerned Govt makes more money on H1-B visa holders than on GC or US Citizens. Let me explain how, 2 persons earning 45K each pay more tax (approx >= 15%) than a single person earning 90K (which is what you usually get by the time you get your Green Card(GC) or if citizen with 3-4 years of experience). Plus for citizen of China and India, they cannot claim their social security tax after their 6 year H1-B period ends and they are asked to leave USA (if GC has not been acquired by then). From the corporate perspective it is easier to control and pay cheap alien workers than it is to deal with GC and citizens. Plus most alien workers due the fear, of H1 cancellation at the whim of the employer, are always genuflecting, bending over and working long hours. Corporates want more control over their work force and they get it through H1, because for H1 holders changing permanent jobs is tougher compared to GC and citizens. A case in point is George Bush's latest move to legalize illegal mexican by granting them a three year (H1-B) work permit, now this H1 quota is separate from the current 65000. The aim is to put the employer in the driver seat and tax these mexicans. And I can vouch that for the majority of the cases US citizens are smart and efficient software developer then H1-B counter parts. These kinds (citizens) might be less in number but I sincerely doubt that. H1-B guys are mostly hard workers but not neccessarily smart and efficient, most of them including me tend to gain software knowledge through job pressures. So why are H1-B guys here in the first place. Well Duh!!! its the Benjamins, the value of US dollor. It won't be an exaggeration if I said that more than 80% of the current H1-B lot will go back their home countries if they get paid 60% of what they are paid here.
Where exactly in Florida ? Because I'll tell you right now that they haven't been coming to South Florida.
We've got more H1B's per capita than you can shake a stick at. Right now, I think I'm one of less than a handful who are US Citz, the rest here are H1B's. And believe me, there were more than enough people locally to perform these jobs.
It's not a matter of NOT finding people to perform the job, it's a matter of companies not finding people to do the job FOR WHAT the companies feel like paying. Never mind you that there are plenty of qualified candidates, don't be fooled, there are. Companies will use the boo-hoo-hoo excuse to not provide higher compensation packages.
There ARE people out there to do the job, that CAN do the job, companies just don't feel they're worth it. And frankly, the excuse of comparing a BS ( or higher ) educated CompSci individual with a migrant farm worker, is not only ridiculous...it's getting old. Detractors....find a better analogy. I doubt you will, but by all means, knock yourselves out trying.
And for those "chosen" few. You can STILL be a Republican, and speak up about Outsourcing being as major an issue as is "Homeland Security". If you don't get it, you just don't. Don't worry, the rest of us won't hold it against you. We're just as responsible as the rest of us in the GOP, we just don't feel like giving up our jobs.
"...rarely get deployed overseas into combat zones."
Umm sorry this one is totally off base. I don't know about fewer responsibilties; it's like any other job. More money? Definately. But there's about 3-4 contractors on the battlefield to every soldier. Especially with technologically advanced systems (i.e. networks, sensors, etc)
I read Slashdot for the
Not to sound crass, but I think the key word here is luck. I too have 8+ years in UNIX admin, BS in EE and a BS in CS. Always had great reviews and many raises. Worked for Xerox, Kodak, and Cantor Fitzgerald. All big companies, all great experiences. I was laid off last year before Christmas. All part of the outsourcing fad. Anyway, I haven't been able to find a job yet. Still unemployed and no unemployment left to collect. From my view of the world, jobs are very limited. But that's just me. I've been very unlucky in my job search. Now with being out of the work force for so long, it's even harder to land employment. All I can say is if things are going well for you, then concider yourself fortunate. And if in your current job, you even remotely think things will turn bad (downsizing), imediately find a new job. Once you get laid off, it's very hard to get that next job. Trust me, employers are very prejudice about laid off employees. In my particular case, the whole department got whacked, but that doesn't matter. No matter how good you are, never think you have it made. After all, that's what I did, and what a mistake it was.
Workers of the world unite! You need to revolt and kill every employer. Then you'll be in better shape.
Right?
[ home ]
Evryone in the Army is a grunt first and whatever else, second. The first school you go to is BCT (Basic Combat Training).
Read any good sonnets lately?
How on Earth can you single handedly admin 1,000 servers properly? Are all the servers just in a maintenance phase with no plans for updates, upgrades, and replacement? Everything is automated? All security, auditing, and alerts are in place?
-Lucas
It used to be that employers were interviewing candidates trying to assess their potential. The employer typically ended up teaching the new employee the specifics of what they need to know to do the work. It used to be that working someplace was a relationship between employer and employee.
But alas, those days have passed, and now it's merely
"what can you do for me right now?"
"I hired you to do a specific job, don't get any ideas beyond that"
"I'm not interested in your career growth"
"I'll dump you ass on the street when it suits me"
"Next year your job will be off shored anyway"
"When your job is off shored, I expect you to train your replacements"
In your specific case, I'd say that candidates would have to know either C++ or C#, but both would be extra (with a little patients knowledge of one will transfer to the other), and COM, as ASP.NET is built on top of COM, and if you have the fundamentals, you can easily learn the particulars of ASP.NET fairly quickly. Design skills are required, and translate good discipline into the how the code is done.
Do you phrase your requirements in this fashion? No. You are casting too narrow a net, and I think that you've already indicated that in your response.
By specifying your requirements in such narrow specifics, and / or combination of specifics, and your unwillingness to have a little patience and allow someone to 'come up to speed' on the particulars, you really are making it more difficult for yourself finding suitable candidates.
Lastly, I can't believe that you can't find worthwhile candidates given the amount of layoffs and firing in the IT sector. I recently read in the trades that unemployment in the IT sector was still running around 60%. With that amount of people floating around out there, there has to be someone that wants to work for you, and that you'd not hesitate to invest a little bit into.
Sooooo... why not just employ a new US graduate if they're intent on replacing a 10yr veteran with a new grad on an entry level salary?
Because there aren't any that are willing to work for 90% of base pay + $1/month (the minimum allowed by the H-1b visa law). And you don't get the bonus of being allowed to threaten them with deportation if they don't play yes man to your bad ideas. Americans are horribly adicted to things like whistleblowing and intellectual honesty; where asian cultures have a different honor system where loyalty is far more important.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
My friend this is the American cheap labor policy. Do you think a ultra advanced country can allow 8 million illegal immigrants to come into the country and stay? Of course, it was done to provide cheap labor and slavery in other names. Just like your H1 arguments, there are lot of Americans who CAN cut grass, clean toilets and make hotel beds. But employers just love to have illegal mexican immigrants for these jobs. And Uncle Sam loves having mexican slaves to do its dirty work. Software just happens to be higher paying and H1 people are not illegal. That is the only difference.
Perl and other tools to work smarter, not harder.
if this was true you would be using Python!
My company has been active in layoffs (we just bought an online travel site and have lots of "redundancies") but in speaking with a recuiter I usually use to GET people - he commented that he had placed lots of folks from my company who were leaving (either laid off or sick of the parent company - which I am as well).
Further - not to be brutal, but Colorado is tech heavy but had a LOT of scuds who were overpaid and underperforming in the bubble. Since, some talented folks HAVE left CO and others have found jobs they aren't willing to leave. The market for really good people is still tight. Where are you located and what's your skillset? I could always use a bad@ss Linux/*nix admin...
That being said, our governor IS worthless
Computer Science is Applied Philosophy
Again, you're not paying enough. Only money isn't the only form of "pay".
Why don't you offer a permanent position? Are you a contractor? Why not? Maybe because you'd prefer more stability? Then why are you asking other people to do this?
How about telecommuting? Driver work isn't exactly something that needs to be done on-site, unless you're working on a mainframe or something. Send the device to the guy and have him work on it at home. Or are you too obsessed with being able to pop in his cubicle with no warning and see what he's doing, or make sure he's wearing clothes you approve of?
Interesting work? So your work isn't interesting? Maybe you need to offer more money if you're trying to get people to do a boring job.
This is the problem: employers want to dictate all the terms of employment, and refuse to take anything less (like someone that might need training). Then they sit around, wondering why they can't find anyone.
Apparently, "good communications skills" just means they'll say "I'll work for half the going rate", even if they say that with a heavy accent.
"You can't hire someone to be trained for 6 months for some positions, especially since this particular company had failed to hire enough people to begin with and really needed people who could get productive from day one."
So how long did they look for the perfect candidate?
Obviously, it wasn't *that* urgent if they were willing to wait so long for Mr. or Ms. Right.
A hire who needs training may not be able to be productive from "day one", but while being trained in the technology they can also be trained on your specific systems and methods.
You could hire Mr. Perfect, but on Day One he'll be technically productive, but won't know anything about your own systems and methods.
If you hire someone who needs training, then by the time the person gains the technical experience you were originally looking for, they will in fact be *more* productive, through knowledge of the system and problem space.
I have come to the unfortunate conclusion that C++ is headed the way of Cobol. I've been told by recruiters that it is just beginning to be difficult to find people to fill all of the jobs, that the employer/employee balance is tipping the other way.
I'm absolutely certain that, if I had a stronger background in Java or C# (like any appreciable experience), that I'd have my pick of jobs right now. I get inquiries on a nearly weekly basis regarding open Java positions. As it stands, 13 years of C/C++ software engineering building everything from VoIP applications to multi-tiered high performance statistical servers just doesn't cut the cake in terms of finding work these days.
I think that employer's days of demanding someone with experience in C# that goes back to its release date are numbered, but the same is also true about the job prospects of a C++ programmer in Colorado.
I remember that during the tech boom, anyone who could talk the talk could get a job for long enough to rake in some money, add it to his resume, and get out of it before his employer figured out how pathetic that person's skill level was. As a person who is morally incapable of adding something to my resume unless I'm confidently competent, I don't relish the return of those days either.
Wake up - the future is arriving faster than you think.
Large companies crying about the lack of H1's for worker are really missing the concept of free markets.
Further, read this treatise outline to understand fully the nature and different ramifications in tech..
Dammit, ask about Green Cards and as long as the U. S. is selective enough, we will have a better economy and your job is just fine and your salary is more stable on firmer ground instead of being undercut with servant style employment.
Can you think of anything better!
Dan
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