Slashdot Mirror


MS Seeks To Patent Education-Feedback Software

theodp writes "The USPTO disclosed Thursday that Microsoft is seeking an early childhood education-related patent for Providing instructional feedback to a user, which the software giant says covers the use of computers to teach little tykes to form the letter 'b', make a 'ch' sound, and divide 321 by 17. Let's hope LeapPad-toting preschoolers are indemnified against Microsoft lawsuits." "Unstructured" is the key word in this patent, which (like most) is written in language that does more to obscure than illuminate. Just how structured was Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing? How about GCompris?

197 comments

  1. What a Downer! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This may be the big one folks. There is so much prior art for this that its not even funny. Not only that, this is the backbone of the world's economy and its rigorous enforcement may well wake up the world to the problem of broad software patents and bring about quick change to the patent system.

    May it be rigorously enforced for the good of humanity.

    1. Re:What a Downer! by k4_pacific · · Score: 1, Informative
      --
      Unknown host pong.
    2. Re:What a Downer! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This patent will not be rigorously enforced. Microsoft would not be that stupid.

      Microsoft will only use this patent to increase the strength of legal threat against any specific (and in M$' opinion poor) entity that competes against M$.

      "According to our lawyers, your product violates seventeen separate patents held by us, listed herein:"

      It may very well be that every single one is superfluous, but very, very few entities have the kind of bucks necessary to successfully legally challenge the grounds for such patents.

      Microsoft won't play this card against anyone they think could trump it.

    3. Re:What a Downer! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dear Slashdotters,

      For future reference, the USPTO now offers much more information that may be useful for tracking patents. The information is accessible via the PAIR system, which stands for Patent Application Information Retrieval. A link is available via the USPTO website at www.uspto.gov (to the left where it says "Status and IFW"). If you search for the publication number (20040234938), you can look at the image file wrapper (IFW).

      Included in the IFW are several information disclosure statements (IDSs). These are documents provided by the inventors and attorneys which contain prior art known to the inventors and attorneys. Eventually you will be able to see the examiner responding to the patent with objections, rejections, or maybe allowances of the claims. As you can see, the 18 month publication just occurred but the application has not been assigned to an examiner yet.

    4. Re:What a Downer! by gilesjuk · · Score: 1

      They'd be foolish to try and restrict access to educational software for children.

      (Tongue in cheek) Mind you if kids lose out on a good education they might be dumb enough to keep buying Microsoft software :)

    5. Re:What a Downer! by phloydde1 · · Score: 0

      Is it just me, or does it seem we are heading to some sort of business serfdom, where the big companies will let you do business in the tech sector at their discretion. If you piss them off, then they will wield the 900 lb. hammer of patent lawsuits to take you out.

      And since there is so much money invested in the patent system by the large companies, the system will remain more or less the same, with some useless legislature tacked on here and there to make it seem friendlier.

      This and some other articles today reminded me of a bad 50's sci-fi book I read a while back - where the population is just seen as consumers, and it was the right of companies to exploit the consumers. The government enacted laws which forced consumerism on the population.

  2. Oh great! by MeatBlast · · Score: 3, Funny

    Oh great now Microsoft is making crappy kids software. I'm waiting for the Mozzila version.

    1. Re:Oh great! by Chrispy1000000+the+2 · · Score: 1

      It's either that, or there patenting the idea of self teaching. Now there's the dangerous idea...

      --
      Sig
    2. Re:Oh great! by meburke · · Score: 3, Interesting

      OK, I read the patent app and came to the following conclusions:

      First, the biggest threat is to "simulation" education, not regular teaching systems, and it looks like they are trying to patent a simulator. As the world becomes more complex, many things will be better taught by simulation than rote learning. The images didn't work well in Mozilla, but I get the impression that MS is proposing a stand alone unit over the broad scope of the early claims. IBM and Control Data may have the "prior art" for simulated learning systems.

      This should not be a threat to regular "programmed instruction" because PI usually requires specific answers to specific questions. It is a "reinforcement" to structured responses, rather than analog unstructured skill building. Texas Instruments built a great Typing teacher back in the 70's. You painted a child's fingers different colors, and painted the keys the right color for those fingers. The student was reinforced for both getting the right spelling for the words presented, but also for touching the right keys with the right fingers. Most of the typing teachers, type and spell, etc. use this type of PI based on the teachings of Skinner and Crowder. BTW, IBM was using this type of teaching back in the 60's, and I actually learned to program in AUTOCODER from this type of teaching. PI courses are considered inadequate if they do not teach 98% of the subject to 98% of the users, and it typically takes only about 1/6th the time that it would take with a passive presentation. I think that Skinner got such a bad rap that people "threw out the baby with the bathwater" when they de-emphasized PI in the 70's. To be fair though, even though PI is extremely useful for transmitting knowlege, it takes about 5 times as long to produce a good PI course or book as it would take to produce a passive presentation course.

      "Unstructured input" may be challenged by people using fuzzy logic or neural nets in learning devices. It's been done. In the near future, I can certainly envision cameras that will tell a system when a child is holding a pen incorrectly, and certainly it's possible to figure out how a person arrived at their answers, even if it's an incorrect answer. In arithmetic, for instance, accountants have multiple tricks to identify specific types of arithmetic mistakes.

      A lot of CAI is crap these days. It always tics me off when a company produces a multimedia presentation of a lecture and ignores the other things (like PI) that could so well enhance the instruction. If this MS patent would reduce the level of crap I'd be for it, but I'm afraid it's more likely that it will increase the amount of crap as people try to avoid infringement problems.

      It is, however, time to do something about the low level of learning among our children, and the slow process of teaching our adults. (These problems may be related!) Microsoft deserves some of the patents they've produced, and knee-jerk anti-MS responses won't solve the problem of teaching our population. If they have come up with something really new, I'd be delighted to see it distributed throughout our schools and homes.

      Where's Ray Kurzweil when we need him?

      --
      "The mind works quicker than you think!"
    3. Re:Oh great! by NoTheory · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You are very very wrong.

      Microsoft is attempting to patent all intelligent systems. Their patent would essentially given them rights to any system that has a robust linguistic system and some sort of task oriented backend that explains things to people.

      As a computational linguist who's interesting in making peoples lives better (through things that would fall under this patent), i think this would be a really horrible stifling idea. As a result i'm glad that the patent is so stupid, because i'm sure i could come up with counter examples.

      --
      There are lives at stake here!
    4. Re:Oh great! by meburke · · Score: 1

      I might be wrong. I've been wrong a couple of times before. However, you failed to tell me where, specifically, I was wrong.

      I'd be interested in hearing how you know that "Microsoft is trying to patent all intelligent systems." I do seem to see a pattern indicating that they are flooding the PO with apps containing very broad claims, and this disturbs me because it gives them grounds to intimidate smaller developers who tread on "their" territory, and also sabotages or bypasses the capacity of the PO to evaluate the claims. I agree that they are in a position to stifle competition, but, like 3M, if they are actually doing the research and get to the goal first, then they deserve the credit. The fact that their computational linguists are competing with you is not relevant to the validity of their claims.

      --
      "The mind works quicker than you think!"
  3. Good move! by EEBaum · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I hope they get the patent and litigate heavily. Then perhaps parents will spend time with their children, rather than plopping them in front of various boxes that they believe will do the work for them.

    If only...

    --
    -- I prefer the term "karma escort."
    1. Re:Good move! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      or, when the various boxes that they [parents] believe will do the work for them find out that it wont, then comes the class action against Microsoft.

      Microsoft sued by the Parents of America.

    2. Re:Good move! by jdhutchins · · Score: 1

      But then the parents could be liable, becuase they would be infringing on the patent as well. So, you'd have parents trying to teach their children how to read having to pay royalties to Microsoft.

      Come to think about it, maybe Microsoft will start using their patented approach for their software managers. "When you make software like this, it sucks! Why don't you try it this way?"

    3. Re:Good move! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Sorry, but this is wrong. Im a single parent, and spend every senond I can with my child, however, you seem to forget, we dont live in this fantasy world where clothes dont get dirty, food comes pre-made, and the house stays clean all by itself.
      Mabey this is how it is where you come from, or mabey your a slob and constantly eat pizza, who knows and who cares. But I would rather my kid sit down and play at the computer, or on a LeapPad, than to get burned by the stove while I am cooking, or hurt with chemical cleaners.

      You obviously have no child and you are just speaking from your ass, which, imho makes you look stupid.

    4. Re:Good move! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait a minute... most of what I know, I learned from various boxes.

    5. Re:Good move! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Well, the real problems here aren't with use in normal children, but with specialists (i.e., speech-language pathologists, psychologists) using this in practice.

      We're not talking about something that would be nice for parents to use with children at home, but programs to aid in the treatment of children who have difficulties (and who often respond to software when nothing else works).

    6. Re:Good move! by tepples · · Score: 1

      But then the parents could be liable, becuase they would be infringing on the patent as well. So, you'd have parents trying to teach their children how to read having to pay royalties to Microsoft.

      No. The claims in this patent application require "A computing device ... comprising: a processor", "A networked computing system", or "A computer-readable medium having computer-readable instructions". Teach kids the way kids were taught a century ago when automatic computing devices weren't invented yet.

      Anyway, I see prior art for some of these claims in Nintendo's late-1990s Mario Party game, one of whose activities (called "Crazy Cutter") has each of four players trace a shape using the Control Stick. I would send the patent app back to Microsoft for a cleaner definition of "unstructured input"; otherwise, we've got more prior art than the Louvre on many of those claims.

    7. Re:Good move! by js7a · · Score: 1

      Anything that improves a little bit of instruction in some places ought to be able to improve a lot of instruction in many places later on.

  4. Sleazy, dispicable, under-handed, and cheap... by eeg3 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    But, no reason for them to stop if they can get away with it and make money off of it.

    Write your congressman and plead for reform.

    1. Re:Sleazy, dispicable, under-handed, and cheap... by gordo3000 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      but its so much easier to complain about it and not actually do anything

    2. Re:Sleazy, dispicable, under-handed, and cheap... by killjoe · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "Write your congressman and plead for reform."

      I hate to break it to you but it won't help. Your congressperson doesn't give a shit about you. Read this article. Here is a quote.

      While all 435 seats in the House of Representatives are up for election in November, the truth is that only about 25 to 40 seats are truly contested


      So unless you live in one of those 24 t0 40 districts your congressmen gets re-elected automatically. As they say their only risk is to be caught with a dead girl or a live boy.

      MS is bribing them, they know they will get re-elected no matter what.

      When push comes to shove they will simply say that if you vote for their opponent gays will marry and terrorists will kill you and voila! They will get re-elected. Your neighbors are dumb and are much more concerned with preventing gays from being married then patents.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    3. Re:Sleazy, dispicable, under-handed, and cheap... by g0hare · · Score: 1

      You better enclose a check if you want your congressloser to pay attention to you. Because poor people who can't write checks don't count.

      --
      Vote Quimby!
    4. Re:Sleazy, dispicable, under-handed, and cheap... by smaug195 · · Score: 1

      I live in San Francisco, being caught in bed with a live boy may be an asset to getting re-elected here.

    5. Re:Sleazy, dispicable, under-handed, and cheap... by killjoe · · Score: 1

      Perhaps but I bet your congressmen wins overwhelmingly every time.

      There is no such thing as democracy anymore. All the districts have been organized to make sure of that.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    6. Re:Sleazy, dispicable, under-handed, and cheap... by js7a · · Score: 2, Funny

      How do you expect them to be able to fix the patent system when they don't even know that burning radioactive metal produces more nitrates than extrapolation from light elements would imply?

    7. Re:Sleazy, dispicable, under-handed, and cheap... by Elektroschock · · Score: 1

      Or organise a US chapter of FFII.

  5. Next thing you know... by kzinti · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...Microsoft will be trying to patent the see-n-say. Is nothing obvious?

    1. Re:Next thing you know... by EEBaum · · Score: 1

      The horse saying "neigh" was not obvious. It's not even close to how I would've spelled/pronounced it.

      --
      -- I prefer the term "karma escort."
    2. Re:Next thing you know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Of course nothing is obvious.

      Patent law firms make MORE MONEY if they process your patent than if they explain to you why your invention cannot be patented.

      So it is the job of the patent attorney to rationalize away such things as prior art or existing conflicting patents, rather than to seek them down and prevent the conflict.

      This works since the firm that processed the patent doesn't have to defend it if it is challenged in court.

      Just follow the money...it's all quite plain...

  6. Another one by FiReaNGeL · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Another stupid software patent. Its an everexpanding mess which shouldn't have existed in the first place... can you really qualify software as an 'innovative invention'? Should it be protected for 20 (or whatever) years so no one can duplicate your code?

    In my opinion, it should be protected like books (and such) by copyright law only. If I can recreate the same effect without seeing your code, I can't see how your patented software is innovative. 'Normal' inventions are a different story altogether; they can be disassembled, reverse engineered, etc. (Ok, Java code too).

    1. Re:Another one by Dolphinzilla · · Score: 1

      I personally have three patents at various points in the process of filing - one for a hardware design (radar related), one for a search algorithm for a LIDAR, and one for a software MMI (Man Machine Interface) technique. The software patent would seem very obvious to anyone and in fact I was surprised I had never seen it before - it would be ridiculously easy to reverse engineer because its so simple and obvious, does that make it not innovative ? - I won't actually benefit from the patents other than a small cash bonus (very small) and am doing it mostly for the cool factor of having some patents on my resume. From a business perspective even if my company never builds anything that actually makes use of the patents they are still in a stronger position than if a competitor comes up with it and makes money on it. I think it is very difficult to draw a line at where something becomes innovative and patent worthy versus obvious - at any rate the MS patent is way to broad to stand up in any fair court of law IMHO.

    2. Re:Another one by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1
      one for a software MMI (Man Machine Interface) technique. The software patent would seem very obvious to anyone and in fact I was surprised I had never seen it before

      The fact that you haven't seen your patented MMI technique used anywhere doesn't mean no one has thought of it, and if the USPTO grants a patent on it doesn't mean it should have been patentable. I mean, you say so yourself: it seems very obvious. Would it seem very obvious to someone else skilled in the art of programming interfaces who was trying to solve the same problem? I guess we'll have to wait and see...

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    3. Re:Another one by Dolphinzilla · · Score: 1

      you make a valid point, I would rate what we came up with as very creative versus very innovative - it certainly provides a more intuitive way of interacting with our data than other techniques that have been done before - and it is very possible that it exists somewhere already but was never patented - as you say we shall wait and see :-)

  7. No Way by pbooktebo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I can't believe that this could possibly withstand any attack. Education literature is filled with feedback technologies for learning, from B.F. Skinner's "Technology of Teaching" to attempts to teach vocalists with biofeedback.

    I know little about patent law, but as an educator, the world is filled with many prior attempts (some very successful).

    Anyhow...

    1. Re:No Way by Haydn+Fenton · · Score: 1

      Yes, literally hundreds of M$ patents probably have prior art, does the patent office know/care? No.
      Does Microsoft care? No.
      Should anyone else care? No.
      If you are ever threatened over it, refuse to pay for the right to do whatever it is (or pay, if you feel it isn't worth the hassle), and if you get taken to court over it, go ahead, prove prior art (and complete absurdity.. come on, patenting feedback / double-click / to-do-list / tab to swap between hyperlinks in a brwoser, etc... Piss off MS) and their patent gets revoked, plus they lose a chunk of their (never-ending) money, since the prosecutor pays the court fees.

      No, IANAL.

    2. Re:No Way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      On distributed computers using tablet PCs as the input devices? Really?

      Could you give some examples?

    3. Re:No Way by tepples · · Score: 1

      since the prosecutor pays the court fees.

      Patent infringement under U.S. law is a civil matter, not a criminal matter. I'm assuming that by "prosecutor" you meant "plaintiff, usually the patent holder".

      Anyway, where are you going to get the money to pay an attorney up front for services? Or do attorneys routinely give out loans to be paid back at the time of the verdict?

    4. Re:No Way by bm17 · · Score: 1

      Can't the patent "violator" counter-sue for damages? Isn't there a way for other patent lawyers to get rich by attacking the bogus patents? Maybe then they would be willing to take on cases with no advance fee.

    5. Re:No Way by gim_alelen · · Score: 1

      Seriously. As a former special education teacher and now a social worker specializing in behavior modification, I'd say this covers every teaching method known to man. So, now we can not only patent new ideas on how to conduct business, but also we can patent teaching methods? I'm patenting arithmetic and calculus RIGHT NOW.

    6. Re:No Way by js7a · · Score: 1
      I can't believe that this could possibly withstand any attack. Education literature is filled with feedback technologies for learning, from B.F. Skinner's "Technology of Teaching" to attempts to teach vocalists with biofeedback.

      Yeah, that's how I feel.

  8. Now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Did you forget Microsoft Barney?

  9. This is really funny by oexeo · · Score: 5, Funny

    In a few decades when books have been practically replaced by software, the only education available will be from Microsoft. *Everyone* will be retarded!

    1. Re:This is really funny by over_exposed · · Score: 1

      Obligatory Southpark-Inspired Quote: "Microsoft is pat'nting ev'rything, Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb..."

      --
      "The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his." - Patton
    2. Re:This is really funny by nkh · · Score: 1

      This isn't so funny when you think about it: what will happen in a few decades? Either we'll live in a dream world without polution, religion and where everyone will be educated and respect each other OR we'll live in a hellish nightmare where books will be forbidden (read this one more time, is it some kind of prophecy?)

      Of course I doubt Microsoft and its patents will still exist as it is now.

    3. Re:This is really funny by oexeo · · Score: 1

      I'd say prophecy, which is scary and funny, for the same reason: the human race has ultimate power over the earth and everything in it, so what does it do with this great power? fuck itself over.

    4. Re:This is really funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Either we'll live in a dream world without polution, religion and where everyone will be educated and respect each other OR we'll live in a hellish nightmare where books will be forbidden

      Perhaps that's your dream world, but how about keeping your personal mythologies out of public forums, hmm?

    5. Re:This is really funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He probably meant intellectual. No offense, but as belief in any religion increases, intellect drops.

    6. Re:This is really funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only lonely band of eskimos with Linux running on their laptops remain. There are legends of little devils in central Africa but Tome of Netcraft said they should be dead by now.

    7. Re:This is really funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Only lonely band of eskimos with Linux running on their laptops remain. There are legends of little devils in central Africa but Tome of Netcraft said they should be dead by now.

      WTF does this mean?

    8. Re:This is really funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He probably meant intellectual. No offense, but as belief in any religion increases, intellect drops.

      I'm sorry for you. Perhaps you can be unindoctrinated, but you're simply going to have to open up that closed mind you have.

    9. Re:This is really funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Unindoctrinated" isn't actually a word.

    10. Re:This is really funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ``Deprogrammed'' then, and also ``theophobia.''

    11. Re:This is really funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      deprogram [...] To counteract or try to counteract the effect of an indoctrination, especially a religious or cult indoctrination.

    12. Re:This is really funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you wouldn't agree that the level of indoctrination of the principles of Aethiesm these days approaches cult status? Anyone not towing the party line is dismissed as a ``religous nutball'' or ``fundy'' these days, both terms I've seen recently not in response to religious discussions, but the mere mention of someone being a Christian. The OP has been brainwashed to the point that he counts religion as an element that must be missing to have a perfect world.

      Look at the definition you posted. ``Deprogram'' means to remove a course of indoctrination and has nothing to do at all with religous groups, yet some theophobic writer added that little tagline in. It's the same thing all over.

    13. Re:This is really funny by mizhi · · Score: 1

      No, they'll just segfault on math equations with a 0 in the denominator. ;-)

      --
      Humorless sig goes here.
    14. Re:This is really funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Religion has caused more wars than anything else, can we really have a peace with it?

      Also, the "tagline" you mentioned is found at dictionary.com

  10. Post dept by ZZeta · · Score: 2, Funny

    Shold have been: "Posted by timothy on Saturday November 27, @08:11PM from the patent-system-could-use-some-learning-soft dept."

  11. Education? Feedback ? and Software ? by Mikeybo · · Score: 1

    It is just me or this sounds strange when you add microsoft in the begginning

    1. Re:Education? Feedback ? and Software ? by EEBaum · · Score: 1, Funny

      Education: "No, don't push that button right after pushing this one. Bad things will happen."

      Feedback: "You just pushed those two buttons in order. Your system will now crash."

      Software: "The system that is now crashing."

      --
      -- I prefer the term "karma escort."
    2. Re:Education? Feedback ? and Software ? by oexeo · · Score: 1

      Guessing game: The cat sat on the [Click for answer]

      *click*

      Answer: Wrong, the cat sat on the Stop 0x0000001e (c000009a 80123f36 02000000 00000246)
      Unhandled Kernel exception c000009a from 8123f26
      Address 80123f36 has base at 80100000 - ntoskrnl.exe

  12. what about tachers by l3v1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    [...]education-related patent for Providing instructional feedback to a user, which the software giant says[...]

    And I thought parents and teachers were the ones to provide instructional feedback to the us... uhm, sorry child.

    As regarding MS & patenting: nothing to say here, /. has already expressed the opinion most os uf have regarding the matter: crapheap.

    --
    I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
  13. BSOTLD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Blue screen of talking like a dolphin.

  14. Prior Art - The Graffiti Tutor by RPayne · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The PalmOS Graffiti tutor - very structured, obviously it's not prior art!

    And, these much older teaching tools are also obviously too structured and not prior art!

    Madlibs, a game from the Apple II days! - Obviously too structured.

    Lemonade stand - Apple II

    . . . Other examples, too numerous to waste time on! There is so much prior art on this, that maybe it will wake someone at the US Patent Office up!

  15. Very Prior Art by JohnPerkins · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I know there's going to be a raft of prior art examples, but what leaps to mind first is the use of email back in the days when there were only a few universities connected together. Would using email to ask one of your professors fit as prior art in this case? What about using email to ask a question of a fellow student or anyone at another university? For that matter, how old is email itself? How old is the oldest know student-to-professor email?

  16. New slogan by Joey+Patterson · · Score: 0

    Microsoft: All your children are belong to us.

  17. What about electronics that already do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I hope my speak and spell from 20 years ago is ok!!!

  18. Speak and Spell? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Speak and Spell came out in 1978. This is about as plain an example of "prompt user, wait for reply, respond" as you can get. Is MS claiming they came up with this concept before 78?

    1. Re:Speak and Spell? by bigberk · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Speak and Spell came out in 1978
      That thing is still gold, if you can get your hands on one. I used to sample the robotic audio into techno music. Then I started hearing it in the clubs, and I'd be like, damn is that a Speak n Spell? "D. F. F." anyone?
    2. Re:Speak and Spell? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      unfortunately that patent (if exists) ran out...

    3. Re:Speak and Spell? by mdfst13 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "unfortunately that patent (if exists) ran out..."

      Once a patent runs out, it's supposed to be in the public domain. Further, a patent isn't necessary. Simple publication is enough to get it into the public domain. Patenting *delays* that process. Public domain prior art is supposed to be as useful against a patent as patent prior art.

      Of course, in practice, the system does not always work that way.

    4. Re:Speak and Spell? by mizhi · · Score: 1

      Well, the difference is that is structured input. Their patent is for unstructure input... whatever that means. I assume they mean stuff like english sentences, speech, drawings, etc...

      but those have structure... infact, the only way to get unstructure input would be to hook up a radioactive sample to the machine... /lamejoke

      --
      Humorless sig goes here.
  19. Yawn... by nwbvt · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Another evil MS patent story.

    Wake me up when one of these is upheld in court. That will be news. The patent office still hasn't even approved this one (and with its current rate, it will likely take a few years before it is).

    I can apply for a patent for starting a fire with two sticks. Its even possible the patent office will rubber stamp it a few years later. But it is meaningless because there is no way a judge would accept it.

    --
    Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
    1. Re:Yawn... by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, even a totally bogus patent is a stick with which to beat someone. You have to spend a lot of money to defend against it, even if you do eventually win. And it can cost so much that you drop your case because of bankruptcy.

      And if the patent is ruled invalid, I doubt that MS would end up paying court costs, because you couldn't show malice. If the USPTO said that they had a good patent, then they have a perfectly legal right to act as if it really IS a valid patent. Even if what they patented was falling down. (If you are a lawyer, or have other specialized knowledge in this field, then I'll gladly accept correction. I sure don't, but that's the way the law generally works.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    2. Re:Yawn... by nwbvt · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Except it will cost MS money to defend it. Whats more, after they lose they no longer have the patent which defeats the point of getting it in the first place.

      I believe the common practice is to use these patents as bargining tools with other companies. Such as "I want your patent for really cool item, so I'll trade you rights for really cool item for the rights to all this crap that I got through the patent system." It really isn't going to be worth it to go after small companies, especially when the patent is such that even a novice lawyer could defeat you. Also they can point to their long list of patents for pride reasons.

      I can tell that while I was working at a certain large company with an extensive patent portfolio (not MS, BTW), they encourage their employees to seek patents for anything they think might be novel. Otherwise someone would likely come up with a real patentable idea but fail to report it thinking that it isn't worth it.

      --
      Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
    3. Re:Yawn... by Ralconte · · Score: 1
      Great. Microsoft announces it. We all bitch about today. Two years from now the patent office passes it on the day when a major news story breaks so no one notices. M$ sits on it for a while, then brings suit against somebody who's already guilty of something else, and wins. And all education is pwned.

      OK, I'm exagerating. I don't hate patents, Microsoft has the right to defend their innovations. But we need some patent reform. It has to be a real thing you're patenting, there should be some penalty for bored layers who initiate patents on, say, using a click to select a purchase.

      The patent office already requires any patent on a perpetual motion machine to come with a working model. How 'bout requireing that for abstract concepts such as this one? In other words, justify why you're ignoring decades of prior art. Don't make us

    4. Re:Yawn... by legirons · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "Wake me up when one of these is upheld in court. That will be news. The patent office still hasn't even approved this one"

      I think the "news" is that Microsoft are trying to get as many patents as possible, as quickly as possible.

      The apparent stupidity of some of the ideas they've come up with (patenting the comparaison of numbers?) implies that they're not trying to pretend that any innovation is happening at the company, they just want lots of patents.

      Notice the timing though. Europe is in the middle of a nasty debate about whether to allow software patents. The SCO harassement is starting to wane. Stallman and the FSF are warning that the next attack against free software will come using patents as attack tools. Everybody is expecting something to happen. And Microsoft seems to have decided it needs a stockpile of ammunition.

      I won't be waking you up when it's upheld in court, because that will occur many years after the patents concerned have been used to destroy a competitor (probably a useful OSS program we all use), or as "FUD" which we'll see when our managers sneer at the idea of using free software at work now that they're living in fear of being sued for it.

      But the action required is not so much finding prior art, as (a) ensuring that European law remains sane, and (b) continuing to create free software which is more innovative than anything the proprietary world can offer.

    5. Re:Yawn... by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 1
      Except it will cost MS money to defend it.

      Ohhh yeah, here's a chance to bleed them dry! With $50B in the bank, they probably can't afford any more than 50,000 of these lawsuits before they run out of cash.

      I believe the common practice is to use these patents as bargining tools with other companies.

      Or use threats of litigation to nip any new potential competitors in the bud while they're still small. This will become increasingly important since Microsoft is now under scrutiny from anti-trust enforcers over illegal business tactics. They'll be looking for a more socially acceptable way to stamp out any up-and-coming threats.

    6. Re:Yawn... by nwbvt · · Score: 1
      "Ohhh yeah, here's a chance to bleed them dry!"

      Do you seriously think MS became the world's largest software company by throwing money into lawsuits they know they will lose?

      "Or use threats of litigation to nip any new potential competitors in the bud while they're still small."

      Believe it or not, most companies MS (or IBM, or HP, or GE, or virtually any other company out there) might consider a potential competitor can afford a lawyer or two (as my peers on /. have indicated ad nauseum, finding problems with most of these patents does not require a dream team lawyer firm). Note that 28 year olds living in their parent's basement do not count.

      --
      Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
    7. Re:Yawn... by optimus2861 · · Score: 1
      Another evil MS patent story.

      Considering the raft of stupid patent applications in the system, it is a wonder that only the MS ones get play. Oh, wait, this is /. ! Silly me.

      Take the number of MS's application and subtract two, for instance. What do you get?

      System and method for generating and providing educational exercises. From the sounds of the legalese, basically a program (sorry, "method" :vomit:) that will spit out multiple-choice tests from a bunch of preprogrammed questions and answers. One of the "inventors" is a CS professor at Stanford university.

      So it ain't just MS, or even just the big corps, who play this stupid game. The whole system's broken.

      In other news, daytime sky is blue, film at 11.

    8. Re:Yawn... by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Do you seriously think MS became the world's largest software company by throwing money into lawsuits they know they will lose?

      Why not? That's been their basic strategy until recently, and it has served them well. See the Stacker case for example. They have ultimately lost many expensive lawsuits. However, for each case they lost, they have undoubtedly intimidated or financially drained into submission many other legal opponents. By showing their willingness to dump a lot of money even into losing cases, they raise a barrier for those who would sue them. It will require a lot of financial resources to finance the effort to its final conclusion. Most will be deterred from even trying.

      Lawsuits can be extended for many years by shoveling money at them regardless of the merit; sometimes you can even win a meritless suit with brute force combination of money and lawyers. The vast majority of their opponents will give up or settle before Microsoft feels the slightest pain.

      A "lawyer or two" isn't going to cut it. These people took on the entire US federal government and ultimately prevailed. If stupid patents could really be taken out by a couple of small-time lawyers, then things like the one-click patent wouldn't still be in force.

    9. Re:Yawn... by mdfst13 · · Score: 1

      "they just want lots of patents."

      I still think that the primary reason why Microsoft is filing patent applications is to avoid future Eolas issues. If they have all the stupid patents already, then they know that no one else will get them. This is also why they don't care if patents hold up or not. If the patent is ruled invalid, then that protects them as much as a valid patent does.

      The bad part here is that instead of trying to fix the system, they are trying to participate in it. This is unfortunate, as Microsoft might actually have sufficient political clout to push through reform.

    10. Re:Yawn... by nwbvt · · Score: 1
      "See the Stacker case for example."

      Could you please be more specific? Clearly you cannot mean Stac Electronics vs Microsoft over the patent for Stacker, as that was a patent lawsuit initialized and won by Stac for their patent.

      "They have ultimately lost many expensive lawsuits. "

      Sure they have. But how many of those did they initialize knowing they had no chance in hell of winning.

      "If stupid patents could really be taken out by a couple of small-time lawyers, then things like the one-click patent wouldn't still be in force."

      Well the one-click patent is no longer in force. The injunction against Barnes and Noble was lifted nearly four years ago, and the two parties have since settled their differences. And as far as I know, they have not sued another company over "one-click" shopping, even though there are those in the industry who do consider it a valid patent.

      --
      Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
    11. Re:Yawn... by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 1
      It doesn't matter who initiated the case. The issues are the same. They've stuck with many cases that they had no "chance in hell of winning" until the bitter end.

      It also doesn't matter if Microsoft has no chance of winning. If their opponent runs out of cash before the end of the lawsuit, they're toast, and the question of whether they could ultimately win the case in theory is moot.

    12. Re:Yawn... by nwbvt · · Score: 1
      " It doesn't matter who initiated the case. "

      Yes it does. MS cannot control who sues them, unless you believe they have some sort of brain control device. The issue was whether or not they would sue someone when they knew they could not win.

      "If their opponent runs out of cash before the end of the lawsuit, they're toast, and the question of whether they could ultimately win the case in theory is moot."

      You are aware that in the case you cited, Stac Electronics did not run out of money? Because it sounds like you are not all that familiar with the case. It does nothing to back up you assertions.

      --
      Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
    13. Re:Yawn... by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 1
      My assertions work even better when Microsoft sues others. In that case, Microsoft has nothing to lose other than court costs, and their targets have nothing to win. They'd won't be able to get law firms to work for them on contingency, and they'll have to find the cash up front. Most will just capitulate rather than face bankrupcy.

      I referred to the stacker case because it was an example of Microsoft aggressively throwing money into a losing case, something that you claim they would never do.

    14. Re:Yawn... by nwbvt · · Score: 1
      " My assertions work even better when Microsoft sues others."

      Then why don't you find an example of that?

      "I referred to the stacker case because it was an example of Microsoft aggressively throwing money into a losing case, something that you claim they would never do."

      No, thats not what I said at all. I said they wouldn't initialize a lawsuit they knew they had no chance at winning. The Stac case does not count as
      A) They didn't initialize it, Stac Electronics did. If they are sued they have to defend themselves, ignoring it is not an option.
      And B) They didn't know they had no chance at winning. Look around you and you will find dozens of people on /. claiming software patents (like Stacker) are not valid.

      --
      Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
    15. Re:Yawn... by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 1
      Then why don't you find an example of that?

      I don't need to find a current example because it's a prediction. Recently, they've cleared their decks of outstanding antitrust lawsuits (which they had been stubbornly fighting), and they've been cranking up the IP litigation FUD machine. It's not unlikely that this is in preparation for a new patent-based offensive against their smaller competitors. Time will tell whether I'm right.

    16. Re:Yawn... by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Are you aware what did happen?

      First MS encorporated Stacker into it's OS without Stac's approval or agreement, and basically challenged them to do something about it.

      Second Stac filed the suit.

      Third MS replaced Stacker with an inferior competitor who *would* agree to their terms.

      Fourth, since the now bundled software did approximately the same job as Stac's product, their market disappeared. The company headed for bankruptcy.

      Here I loose track, but I believe that at this point Stac settled with MS. I don't know the terms.

      Stac is an excellent example of the basic MS strategy of "how to abuse a monopoly". It's far from the only one, but most companies even before that would knuckle under at the first agressive move from MS. Far more did afterwards. That one abuse of process probably saved them an immense number of lawsuits, but everyone realized that they didn't have a chance.

      And THAT'S the basic MS strategy. They don't have to have a good case, all they need is a case that they can use as a club. And their basic tools are a large amount of money and a monopoly that they don't mind abusing.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    17. Re:Yawn... by nwbvt · · Score: 1
      " First MS encorporated Stacker into it's OS without Stac's approval or agreement, and basically challenged them to do something about it."

      Actually it was DoubleSpace, which Stac claimed infringed on its patent. There is a difference between stealing code and infringing on a patent.

      "Third MS replaced Stacker with an inferior competitor who *would* agree to their terms."

      While I am not entirely familiar with this particular event, are you under the belief that Stac should have been granted a monopoly over all disk compression software and that companies should not be allowed to seek out competitors?

      "The company headed for bankruptcy."

      Yeah, 10 years later after the .com bubble popped.

      "Here I loose track, but I believe that at this point Stac settled with MS."

      Stac won the lawsuit and were awarded $120 million in '94. Then they reached a settlement in which MS invested in the company and were paid millions of dollars over several years. Not a bad deal.

      --
      Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
    18. Re:Yawn... by HiThere · · Score: 1

      No. I'm of the belief that a company holding a monopoly should not be allowed to extend it's monopoly. Thus once MS had become a monopoly (NOT when a court had decided that it was one!!) it should be forbidden to add new features into it's operating system in such a way as to interfere with the business of any competitor.

      I.e., MS should not have been allowed to include EITHER DoubleSpace or Stacker into it's OS. Or to sell or recommend either product. Or to pay them any money for advertising. ... unless, of course, it was willing to do the exact same thing for all entrants into that market, no matter what their prospects as judged by MS. (N.B.: If there is no entrant in some particular market sphere, and has not been for the last five years, then these constraints would not apply. But a monopoly can't be allowed to pick winners. That's too subject to abuse.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    19. Re:Yawn... by nwbvt · · Score: 1
      So you are saying that once MS became the largest provider of operating systems (strictly speaking, they are and never were a true monopoly, there have always been alternative OSes, including the one I am using right now), they should have been prohibited by law from improving their product (any improvement would of course have a negative impact on a competitor)?

      I guess we will just have to agree to disagree in that area.

      --
      Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
  20. It's Clippy! by Ptraci · · Score: 3, Funny

    The patent is for the computer responding to "unstructured input" with an instructional response.

    "It looks like you're trying to..."

  21. Experimental Psychology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm certain that the experimental psychology literature is littered with similar methods to improve learning and memory. Computer based experimentation has been in wide use for approximately 20 years in that field. A large portion of that research is focussed on the learning and memory processes, and how they can be both positively and negatively impacted.

    1. Re:Experimental Psychology by shis-ka-bob · · Score: 1

      That reminds me of Emacs and Eliza, the software 'psychoanalyst' module. That accepts very unstructured text and formulates a response. That certainly seems to meet the criteria of Claim 1 in this POS patent application. It would do my heart good to have RMS's software be the prior art that overturns this application.

      --
      Think global, act loco
  22. Hello, Speak & Spell, Lil Professor, DataMan, by artifex2004 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    and a bunch of other Texas Instruments instructional toys from the last century.

  23. No prior art.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    next up on the microsoft patent list:

    "Utilization of circular object to limit friction"

    (the wheel)

    Soon to be followed by a public pronouncement by Steve Ballmer that "The governments of many nations should be wary that they may be infringing on MS patents and could be sued".

    1. Re:No prior art.... by Haydn+Fenton · · Score: 1

      I have pretty high confidence that MS would probably get it too, I mean.. just because it has prior art, it's already been patenteded, and it's clearly obvious to everybody except the patent office doesn't normally stop Microsoft, right?

  24. Lite version is called LearnPad by MavEtJu · · Score: 2, Funny

    There will also be a lite version of this patent freely available to everybody, limited to the letters needed to say "open source damages innovation" and "intellectual properties are an essential part of the economy".

    A.CDEFG.I..LMNOP.RSTUV..Y.

    Well, not so lite but the joke is there.

    --
    bash$ :(){ :|:&};:
  25. Microsoft can go and... by laughingcoyote · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I wrote a program that did this for my daughter in my own voice. If Microsoft wants to come sue me, they're welcome to go ahead and try.

    --
    To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
    1. Re:Microsoft can go and... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you did and are able to document prior art send the information to the eff.org - they have a patent busting group.

    2. Re:Microsoft can go and... by laughingcoyote · · Score: 1

      I'll see if I can locate it, but that was years ago.

      --
      To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
  26. Example Lesson: by Saeger · · Score: 5, Funny

    Q: 1 + 1 = ?
    A: 2?
    ## We've got a bright bulb here! fork to college-level section.
    Q: In the following sentence, fill in the blank with the word that makes the most sense: "Software patents _________ innovation."
    A: kill
    ## Oh dear, it seems we've got an open source communist on our hands. silently fork to MS re-education section.
    Q: True americans believe in the Constitution, baseball, apple pie, capitalism, private property, and a healthy ecosystem of private intellectual property which promotes progress.
    A: fuck this propaganda!
    ## profanity detected. lost cause. BlueScreenOfDeath(WITH_A_VENGENCE);

    --

    --
    Power to the Peaceful
    1. Re:Example Lesson: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kids arent smart enough to spell or know what propaganda is. Thats why DARE and now even groups like RIAA want school programs that teach ther agendas. kids are impresionable dolts

    2. Re:Example Lesson: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if kids are so stupid then why didnt I accept my parents stupid christianity? I get to go to hell for being so smart.

    3. Re:Example Lesson: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you believe in hell so your parents succeeded in brainwashing you with the worse parts

  27. Prior Art = by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Syntax Error

    It gives you a output from a none structured input.

  28. I claim prior art by bigberk · · Score: 1

    I wrote a typing tutor-esque program at least a decade ago, using GW-Basic no less. It provided educational feedback of various kinds to both students and teachers.

    1. Re:I claim prior art by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're the problem! Didn't you realize that Bill owns GW-BASIC? By now I'm sure they've retroactively changed the EULA so he owns your work.

    2. Re:I claim prior art by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jeez! While I was reading this, the first thing that crossed my mind was "What the fuck is this 'George Dubya - BASIC' thing?!?!"

  29. This is not Speak n Spell by xigxag · · Score: 3, Informative

    This patent app is referring to a (possibly networked) pen and tablet type device used as an educational tool. As this person points out, one can think of possible prior art here. But really, this is just an ordinary straightforward patent. It's not any more evil than any other patent application.

    If anything, it looks to me like MS is trying to end-run some of the Nintendo DS's possible functionality.

    --
    There are two kinds of people: 1) those who start arrays with one and 1) those who start them with zero.
    1. Re:This is not Speak n Spell by xigxag · · Score: 1

      And furthermore, referring to Mavis Beacon in the summary just goes to show that the submitter didn't even bother to read his own fripping sources. The patent application specifically refers to prior art using keyboard charaters as input and claims that it is an improvement to that kind of method. So no, MS is clearly not going after typing programs. At least, not here.

      --
      There are two kinds of people: 1) those who start arrays with one and 1) those who start them with zero.
    2. Re:This is not Speak n Spell by westlake · · Score: 1
      From the patent application, filed in 2003:

      One of the reasons that computers have not had as great an impact on education is that computers have traditionally imposed very structured requirements on input, and, as such, are result-oriented. For example, educational software focusing on mathematics typically evaluates the ultimate answer a user enters (via a keyboard), rather than the process by which the user arrives at the answer. Similarly, a user does not actually write a letter "B" out on the screen, but rather types the letter "B" by pressing a key appropriately labeled on a keyboard. In such situations, while the user may become more efficient at typing, the user is probably not learning to form the letter. Clearly, teaching the correct process/technique is not addressed by educational software.

      Without being drawn into the complexites of the patent itself, this does not appear to me to be an old problem with no good. well-established, off-the-shelf solutions.

    3. Re:This is not Speak n Spell by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      I've got some pre December 23, 2003 pior art that must be archived on the internet somewhere.

      The idea was using a tablet to help improve handwriting. The student would write (anything, so unstructured) and the tablet would work out how they were holding the pen and forming the letters.

      This could then be fedback to the student or teacher, or structured exercises could be produced to help correct the specific problems in letter formation and writing.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
  30. If MS Wins With This Political Climate... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How long will it be before we have kids sleeptalking "Evilution is False. Science is Satan. Obey Microsoft and I will be Rewarded by God. God is Great."?

    1. Re:If MS Wins With This Political Climate... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How long will it be...

      Never?

  31. Useful comments please. by northcat · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I looked at the slashdot comments for useful information and opinion on the patent, but found some worthless posts meant to better the poster's karma and some humourless funny posts. I don't know how to read patents, so can anyone please make a useful comment about what the patent actually says? Please don't make funny replies to this with posts like "you must be new here".

    1. Re:Useful comments please. by pjt33 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There's plenty of opinion. As the summary points out, the important word is "unstructured". Unless it has a technical meaning in the context of patents, it will surely require interpretation by the courts eventually, because anyone sued for infringement will be able to make a good case that all computer IO is structured.

    2. Re:Useful comments please. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You *MUST* be new here.

    3. Re:Useful comments please. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      You can't be new here.

      This guy is!

  32. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 3, Funny

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  33. K4_Pacific Should Not Lose Karma by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Hey hey! Don't mod k4_pacific down! He's right! I declared in this post attached to k4_pacific's original comment that I intended to troll with it. He's entirely right to claim prior art on that first post. He should be modded up interesting or insightful, not redundant! Really, the whole thing is funny, but that's no karma bonus. I swear to God that I'm the author of this story's first post, and post #10731676. :)

  34. Linux??? by pair-a-noyd · · Score: 0

    Ok, this is bullsh*t....

    I want to build a machine for my grandson and I'll be damned if he's going to have his mind polluted by M$ poison.

    What's a Linux distro for toddlers that will run on legacy boxes? Something like DSL for preschoolers?? (And it would be nice if his mom could also use it for simple web tasks, ala-DSL)

    1. Re:Linux??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      omg! you spelled MS with a dollar sign instead of a letter S!!! That is awesome and clever! You are so awesome! M$ is so stupid and greedy! hahahah. M$M$M$M$. hahahaahahah.

    2. Re:Linux??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ubuntu. They are sending out free CD's so you only have to wait about a month and you will get them.

      Works nicely as well, is fast, and works even on older hardware. And, it is fairly easy to learna nd use, so even some web surfing should not be to hard to master.

    3. Re:Linux??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll continue spelling Micro$oft with a dollar sign because of people like you - It obviously annoys microweenies like yourself.

    4. Re:Linux??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you really that retarded, or are you under the very mistaken impression that acting like that makes you look cool?

    5. Re:Linux??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.skolelinux.org/portal/software/

    6. Re:Linux??? by Stevyn · · Score: 1

      Alright, this is really off topic and you're use of M$ and not just coming out and saying "bullshit" is a little annoying...but anyway...

      Don't try to find a distro that's made for toddlers. Just use the distro that you're comfortable and modify and tweak it so it's easy to use. Hell, Gentoo can be easy to use if someone else does all the tweaking to make the desktop easy and intuitive.

      KDE, GNOME, or XFCE with big and nice looking icons comes to mind.

    7. Re:Linux??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try Debian there's a whole bunch of packages specifically aimed at young children.

  35. What prior art? by lastberserker · · Score: 2, Informative

    Everything mentioned in the original post is structured. What the patent covers (to the best of my understanding of the legal mumbo-jumbo) is kind of software parent-teacher-clippy: "Oh, that looks like 'B'! Let me help you to write that again! @"

    --
    My other Beowulf cluster is... er...
  36. Prior Art... by Frennzy · · Score: 0, Redundant

    I can think of at least two things that seriously pre-date MS.

    Speak and Spell, for one.

    Flash cards, for two...which predate by *quite* a significant margin.

  37. China: Piracy of Patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, fortunately, Microsoft is a company with deep pockets. At least, it will have the funds to fight piracy of its patent in China. Chinese companies are notorious for outright stealing a patent and then itself applying for the patent to the Chinese ministry of technology. The behavior is utterly disgusting, but there is little that American companies can do to stop it.

  38. Yep, Microsoft patented help by yorkpaddy · · Score: 1
    A computing device for providing instructional responses to a user, the computing device comprising: a processor; an input device; and an output device; wherein the computing device, in response to a task presented to a user: accepts unstructured input from the user on the input device; and determines whether an instructional response should be output.
    Microsoft will be extracting licensing fees from tech support workers very soon. You heard it here first.
    --
    "brxref .k.p ,.by xprt. gbe.p.oycmaycbi yd. cby.nci.bj. ru yd. am.pcjab lgxlcj" don'
    1. Re:Yep, Microsoft patented help by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you are teh smartypants prophet. tell me more.

    2. Re:Yep, Microsoft patented help by LeBlanc_Joey · · Score: 1

      Yeah, all those tech support guys who 'comprise a processor'.

      --

      Everything in moderation, even moderation.

      No, especially moderation.

  39. An unusual bit of prior art by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Zork and all of the Adventure-type games. They definitely took unstructured input, and one could successfully argue that many of these games served an educational purpose as well as entertainment.

  40. I am a communist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...You insensitive clod!

    1. Re:I am a communist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, aren't you the dumbass!

  41. pwned by browq · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Microsoft sucks!, whats new?

  42. MS patent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "MS seeks retrospective patent for free speech, suing holders of the constitution"

  43. Its not about ' code duplication' by nurb432 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It is so much broader then that : Its about 'concept duplication' and prohibiting that..

    Should simple concepts be patentable? I donno, but should people be able to profit off their ideas, yes....

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    1. Re:Its not about ' code duplication' by FooAtWFU · · Score: 1
      ------ What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" do you not understand ----

      I'm sorry, I have a patent on the concept of keeping and bearing arms. Please surrender your weapons and munitions immediately.

      --
      The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    2. Re:Its not about ' code duplication' by jproffer · · Score: 1

      Patenting concepts is dangerous ground to tread upon. It may protect your invention, but it may also PREVENT anything else from being invented that uses your invention. Royalties to inventors of subsections of your invention can really add up, and prevent you from making anything freely available to people. This is especially true for software patents. Just look at what happened with the GIF algorythm. I agree that Copyrighting is good enough. There's only so many ways you can do something.

  44. I wrote a flash card program by thejuggler · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Back in 1992 I wrote a flash card program for a girlfriends daughter. I used a non-M$ BASIC language that has a compiler (ASIC I think).

    I still have the program and source code if we need to show prior art to the id10ts at the USPTO. The program worked by displaying the letter or number (real big) the kid press on the keyboard. It also had basic shapes and colors (i.e. red triagle blue square, yellow circle etc.) It was interactive with he kid and parent.

    I hearby patent cows farting. Every farmer that has a cow that farts must pay me a penny for every fart.

    1. Re:I wrote a flash card program by zcat_NZ · · Score: 1

      I hearby patent cows farting. Every farmer that has a cow that farts must pay me a penny for every fart.

      Prior fart

      --
      455fe10422ca29c4933f95052b792ab2
  45. The worst of it is... by reality-bytes · · Score: 1



    Not living in the US, I don't have a congressman to write to and yet, ultimately, these patents will affect us here in the UK.

    Perhaps if we were to become the 51st state, at least we would be able to properly lobby for reform. (Although, right now, 'A fate worse than death' springs to mind).

    --
    Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
    1. Re:The worst of it is... by newnerdyuser · · Score: 2, Funny

      Perhaps if we were to become the 51st state

      Oi, Australia is the 51st state and don't you forget it mate!

    2. Re:The worst of it is... by tepples · · Score: 1

      Not living in the US, I don't have a congressman to write to and yet

      Then write your MP and express your opposition to granting patents on inventions implemented as software on a general-purpose computer.

    3. Re:The worst of it is... by reality-bytes · · Score: 1


      Then write your MP and express your opposition to granting patents on inventions implemented as software on a general-purpose computer.


      Yeah, like that will ever work when 90% of British politicians beleive we are already the 51st state ;)
      --
      Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
    4. Re:The worst of it is... by NetNifty · · Score: 1

      US patents don't directly affect us in the UK (or Europe for that matter), I think (hope), especially software ones as they're not legally recognised yet (see earlier story about Poland blocking that for the moment in the EU). However, you're right in that they will affect us (indirectly), as they can create legal issues with multinationals that do business in the US and the UK or Europe.

    5. Re:The worst of it is... by reality-bytes · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Having read a lot about patentability in the UK recently, the damages caused by US patents can be far more real in the UK than the rest of Europe. For this we have largely to thank President....er....I mean Primeminister Blair.

      It is also of note that the current UK government is all-for patent reform. ie: adopting the US standards.

      --
      Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
    6. Re:The worst of it is... by NetNifty · · Score: 1

      Well.... bugger.

      *writes my MP*

  46. Please someone define by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OBVIOUS to the USPTO

  47. I lay claim to prior art for the case by Sai+Babu · · Score: 1

    where the unstructured input is from a computing device, possibly but not necessarily the same as respondant computing device...

  48. Its all interconnected, you see. by Foktip · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Is it just me, or is there some connection between this patent and the $100 PC (http://linuxpr.com/releases/7357.html), which mentions its use as an educational tool in schools, possibly using networks/internet to create or find educational tools for use on these DSL computers? Whats next, will microsoft be telling developing China that it cannot buy/use these computers for educational purposes (whatsoever, due to the broadnes of that patent) without the danger of patent litigation? It seems Microsoft is a sore looser.

  49. PLATO IV or similiar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
  50. Mod parent up by RealProgrammer · · Score: 1

    PLATO had English as a second language, as well as Spanish, French, German, and even Esperanto in the late 1970's. They also had math lessons ranging from "2+2=4" to DiffEq (and probably beyond that). It was all interactive, to say the least.

    --
    sigs, as if you care.
  51. Good boy, Billy -- but ... by Mister+Liberty · · Score: 1

    I wish Billy all the feedback he can get, but other
    than that -- Microsoft, get out of my life.

    bjd

  52. Editor's comments not very applicable here by Moses+Lawn · · Score: 1

    According to Timothy's comment on the submission,

    "Unstructured" is the key word in this patent, which (like most) is written in language that does more to obscure than illuminate. Just how structured was Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing?


    Actually, Mavis Beacon was very structured (I worked for Software Toolworks/Mindscape for a number of years, and am very familiar with that product). The patent app describes "unstructured" as input specifically not from a keyboard, but from a stylus or a microphone. In Mavis, the enitire point was to press the specific keys that it wanted you to at any time, either in typing practice or in the games. It's very much a call-and-response type of learning rather than a more arbitrary scribble-random-stuff method. For that matter, so is the Speak-and-Spell (as I recall), and some of the other prior art that was suggested here.

    I've read and been (unwillingly) involved in a lot of patent applications, and the point is not to write them to be obufuscatory, but not to be any more specific than necessary. Patent writing has its own language and metaphors that sound incredibly dense and complex until someone translates them for you. The main idea is to state everything in such a way that it's a) not so specific that the entire thing falls apart if you change the shape of the box and b) resistant to a sharp patent attorney picking it apart for not being specific enough (hence all the block diagrams of CPUs and descriptions of The Internet and re-restatements of the initial claim in slightly different forms). It took me several years before I could read these things and not go blind. So, this application is pretty clear: a device that takes free-form input and determines if it meets whatever criteria define a "correct" answer, and optionally talks to the instructor's computer over the network to do this.

    A neat idea, yes. New and novel? Not particularly. Patentable? I don't think it should be, but that's pretty irrelevant these days. I do wish the editors would think a little more about their comments on the stories, though.

    --

    What if life is just a side effect of some other process and God has no idea we exist?

  53. What is a 'task' anyway? by Mister+Liberty · · Score: 1

    Or better put: what isn't? bjd

  54. take a hike by Stumbles · · Score: 1

    Now I know there are loads of prior art for that sort of thing. I was developing Computer Based Training packages back in 1987 and I know there were many other companies doing the same or similar way before that time frame.

    --
    My karma is not a Chameleon.
  55. I'm sure there prior art in C64 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    yep

  56. How in the FUCK is this a troll? by JNighthawk · · Score: 1

    That's my why of saying "Mod parent up."

    --
    Wheel in the sky keeps on turnin'.
  57. Automatic Slashdot "News" Article Generator by kansas1051 · · Score: 1

    Here is a list of all U.S. Microsoft patents issued in the last 10 days, It should save the slashdot editors some time in creating "news" stories:

    1 6,823,519 Control object and user interface for controlling networked devices

    2 6,823,518 Threading and communication architecture for a graphical user interface

    3 6,823,508 Automatic computer program customization based on a user information store

    4 6,823,506 Metafile optimization

    5 6,823,495 Mapping tool graphical user interface

    6 6,823,478 System and method for automating the testing of software processing environment changes

    7 6,823,391 Routing client requests to back-end servers

    8 6,823,387 System and method for enhancing a server's ability to withstand a "SYN flood" denial of service attack

    9 6,823,380 System and method providing continual rate requests

    10 6,823,369 Using state information in requests that are transmitted in a distributed network environment

    11 6,823,350 Database clean-up system

    12 6,823,223 Method and apparatus for providing distributed scene programming of a home automation and control system

    13 6,822,664 Browser navigation for devices with a limited input system

    14 6,822,653 Methods and system for general skinning via hardware accelerators

    15 6,822,650 Formatting object for modifying the visual attributes of visual objects to reflect data values

    16 6,820,267 Method and system for remote automation of object oriented applications

    17 6,820,256 System and method for whole-system program analysis

    18 6,820,218 Persistent stateful component-based applications via automatic recovery

    19 6,820,214 Automated system recovery via backup and restoration of system state

    20 6,820,150 Method and apparatus for providing quality-of-service delivery facilities over a bus

    21 6,820,144 Data format for a streaming information appliance

    22 6,820,111 Computer user interface architecture that saves a user's non-linear navigation history and intelligently maintains that history

    23 6,820,063 Controlling access to content based on certificates and access predicates

    24 6,819,358 Error calibration for digital image sensors and apparatus using the same

    25 6,819,345 Managing position and size for a desktop component

    1. Re:Automatic Slashdot "News" Article Generator by theodp · · Score: 1

      This probably is newsworthy, especially when one considers that in just the last 10 days, the USPTO's disclosed that Microsoft also wants new patents for the following:

      PUB. APP. NO. Title
      1 20040237083 System and method for progressively installing a software application
      2 20040237074 Optimizing compiler transforms for a high level shader language
      3 20040237064 Runtime hosting interfaces
      4 20040237053 System and method for implementing an image ancillary to a cursor
      5 20040237049 Undockable sub-windows
      6 20040237046 Unicode transitional code point database
      7 20040237028 Method and apparatus for displaying computer program errors as hypertext
      8 20040236916 System and method for backing up and restoring data
      9 20040236863 Systems and methods for peer-to-peer collaboration to enhance multimedia streaming
      10 20040236850 Client proximity detection method and system
      11 20040236781 Method and system for registering data formats for objects
      12 20040236777 Method and system for client-side caching
      13 20040236774 Bookmarking and placemarking a displayed document in a computer system
      14 20040236769 System and method for representing content in a file system
      15 20040236763 System and method for identifying and storing changes made to a table
      16 20040236762 Method and apparatus for generating statistics on query expressions for optimization
      17 20040236749 Addresses as objects for email messages
      18 20040236746 Timestamping in databases
      19 20040236735 Database aggregation query result estimator
      20 20040236722 System and method for cardinality estimation based on query execution feedback
      21 20040236719 Transmitting information given constrained resources
      22 20040236581 Dynamic pronunciation support for Japanese and Chinese speech recognition training
      23 20040236444 Extending digital rights management and authentication to audio speakers
      24 20040236442 Remote controlled system with computer-based remote control facilitator
      25 20040235532 Methods and systems for a portable, interactive display device for use with a computer
      26 20040234938 System and method for providing instructional feedback to a user
      27 20040234147 System and method for progressively transform coding digital data
      28 20040234132 System and method to facilitate pattern recognition by deformable matching
      29 20040234130 Implicit page breaks for digitally represented handwriting
      30 20040234099 Robust and stealthy video watermarking
      31 20040234051 Unified message system for accessing voice mail via email
      32 20040233844 Bi-level and full-color video combination for video communication
      33 20040233498 Microelectrical mechanical structure (MEMS) optical modulator and optical display system
      34 20040233293 System and method for optically communicating information between a display and a camera
      35 20040233274 Panoramic video
      36 20040233235 Computer user interface architecture that saves a user's non-linear navigation history and intelligently maintains that history
      37 20040233211 System and process for optimal texture map reconstruction from multiple views
      38 20040233209 Theme aware management using fusion
      39 20040233208 Efficient graphics pipeline with a pixel cache and data pre-fetching
      40 20040233203 System and method for optimizing a graphics intensive software program for the user's graphics hardware
      41 20040233202 Interpolation using redial basis functions with application to inverse kinematics
      42 20040233201 System supporting animation of graphical display elements through animation object instances
      43 20040233007 Electronic device having adjustable VCO
      44 20040230991 Method and apparatus for retrieving data from a broadcast signal
      45 20040230987 Reflection-based processing of input parameters for commands
      46 20040230986 Server application components with control over state duration
      47 20040230957 Methods for comparing versions of a program
      48 20040230953 Methods and systems for planning and tracking software reliability an

    2. Re:Automatic Slashdot "News" Article Generator by scenestar · · Score: 1

      "Browser navigation for devices with a limited input system"

      isnt that using the tabkey to select links?

      --
      perpetually dwelling in the -1 pits
  58. Wholly Offtopic by JNighthawk · · Score: 1

    But due to the typical Slashbot response of "Hey! Linux boasting and MS with a dollar sign, mod up!"

    --
    Wheel in the sky keeps on turnin'.
  59. Re:PLATO - Mod Up - Patented in '68! by theodp · · Score: 1

    Check out the first PLATO patent, issued in 1968 for a Versatile Display Teaching System. BTW, PLATO was conceived in 1959.

  60. Who's Micro$oft? by JNighthawk · · Score: 1

    Last I checked, a word does not include a dollar sign. Fucking Slashbot idiot.

    Uh... no offense.

    --
    Wheel in the sky keeps on turnin'.
  61. I did some of this back in the late 70's by Begs · · Score: 1

    I worked in a middle school at the time and the school, for whatever reason, purchased a TI94x. Nobody in the building was remotely interested so I got to play with it all I wanted. I was and still am a fan of Programmed Instruction ala Susan Markle. I remember him telling me that RPG was a brand new language. (heh!)

    I wrote several tutorials for the amusement of the students and myself. It was so successful that I approached the district administration about it. I got a sympathetic hearing from the guy in charge of curriculum. Together we wroted a demonstration program in RPG for one of the eariest system 34/36/38 series of machines. It was the precursor to system 34 I think.

    It was a tutorial in English because the administrator was a former English teacher. The district, a blue collar area, didn't think that they could go further in it as they didn't think the community would accept it.

    Being a computer ignoramus at the time, I didn't know anything about U of I's Plato system. I learned later that it was already in full bloom.

    As to the issue of "unstructured input," that's a smokescreen. All input gets structured for analysis. Once the input device acquires the response, it is structured. This whole concept of unstructured is ridiculous. It is also exactly what they will hang their hat on. There is no such thing as unstructured input. Or more accurately, all input is unstructured until acquired by an input sensor.

    Every input device begins the process of structuring and eventual analysis. The use of any input device is just a logical and obvious extension of the programmed instruction methodology. The computer was similarly an obvious extension of the paper and pencil methods of PI.

  62. Freeform tablet PC? by TommydCat · · Score: 1
    It seems to me that this patent targets on the computer responding to what the user wishes to do without knowing explicitly what it is.

    Unstructured could just mean that the user could be doodling, writing (grafitti? :) or doing something that the computer would figure out and launch an appropriate application or "fix" up the user input.

    Autospell check as the user enters words? Changing hand drawing into a real line or curve? Interpreting motions to edit video in real time? Reconizing a penis doodle and bringing up pr0n? Doesn't say...

    Sounds intriguing but not too original...

    --
    This comment does not necessarily represent the views and opinions of the author.
  63. Re:oops. I did some of this back in the late 70's by Begs · · Score: 1

    Oops sentence in the wrong paragraph. My bad proofing. Redux:

    I worked in a middle school at the time and the school, for whatever reason, purchased a TI94x. Nobody in the building was remotely interested so I got to play with it all I wanted. I was and still am a fan of Programmed Instruction ala Susan Markle.

    I wrote several tutorials for the amusement of the students and myself. It was so successful that I approached the district administration about it. I got a sympathetic hearing from the guy in charge of curriculum. Together we wroted a demonstration program in RPG for one of the eariest system 34/36/38 series of machines. It was the precursor to system 34 I think. I remember him telling me that RPG was a brand new language. (heh!)

    It was a tutorial in English because the administrator was a former English teacher. The district, a blue collar area, didn't think that they could go further in it as they didn't think the community would accept it.

    Being a computer ignoramus at the time, I didn't know anything about U of I's Plato system. I learned later that it was already in full bloom.

    As to the issue of "unstructured input," that's a smokescreen. All input gets structured for analysis. Once the input device acquires the response, it is structured. This whole concept of unstructured is ridiculous. It is also exactly what they will hang their hat on. There is no such thing as unstructured input. Or more accurately, all input is unstructured until acquired by an input sensor.

    Every input device begins the process of structuring and eventual analysis. The use of any input device is just a logical and obvious extension of the programmed instruction methodology. The computer was similarly an obvious extension of the paper and pencil methods of PI.
    [ Reply to This ]

  64. Prior art: 1968 by sakusha · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Jeebus, this is basic stuff that's been done in CAI for decades. The firmest prior art is probably IBM CourseWriter which dates back to 1968, maybe even farther. I worked porting some CourseWriter programs back in the early 70s, they did exactly what the MS patent describes. In fact, that was the whole POINT of CourseWriter, to branch to extended instructional material depending on user input.
    IBM even had a little "voice unit" for synthesized speech output from the old Coursewriter machines, but I forget the model number of the CPUs, I think they were 1401s. I have a nameplate from one of the old voice units somewhere, I found it lying on the floor when the old machines were decommissioned and the new DECs were installed.

  65. No prior art. by rice_burners_suck · · Score: 2, Funny
    I am going to patent taking a shit. I'll title the patent: Method and Apparatus for Removing Human Feces from the Human Body and Placing Same in Feces Collection and Disposal Apparatus.

    Then, I'll install a money collector, along with a credit card machine, on every toilet sold in the U.S. I'll make millions!!!! Bwaaaahahahahahahahahahahah!

    I'd bet you that the USPTO employees won't EVER figure out that some amount of prior art (though I won't tell you where it is) already exists.

  66. Possible Prior Art from the 60's/70's by multicsfan · · Score: 1

    I remember seeing a language/system on the GE/Honeywell mainframe at Griffass AFB/RADC called exper designed and used for instruction around 1970-1972 timeframe.

    I worked for a company in 1999-2001 that specialized in multimedia instruction/training software.

    I also seem to remember an instructional system called PLATO (?) supported/done by CDC sometime in the 60's through 70's timeframe. I've only heard/read about it, never used it so maybe this might trigger someone else's memory.

    Not being a lawyer, I'm not sure which, if any of them might count as prior art.

  67. Unstructured by williamhb · · Score: 1

    I don't actually see how they are managing to put "unstructured" into this patent at all anyway - surely by dint of the fact that the input is into a computer that input obtains some form of encoding, and hence, structure. Whether the input is a sequence of pen-strokes, recording the user speaking, or listening to an unbounded sequence of button presses, it still has some (albeit loose) structure.

    And it also seems like Microsoft shooting their own patent in the foot. It looks as though a litigee could simply stand up and say "No, No, the input in our product has structure. The structure is a time-ordered sequence of user input events". And despite this sounding bizarre, surely they could even point to the object in their code that represents the input, thus showing its structure.

  68. Prior Art: Programmed Instruction by TeachingMachines · · Score: 1

    This kind of "instructional feedback" has been going on at least since the early 1960s with programmed instruction (started wtih book format, but also the teaching machine). Jaw dropping that this could be patented by Microsoft. Nothing, and I mean nothing, is safe.

    --

    The Death Penalty: Killing people to show others that killing people is wrong.
  69. Patent Abuse by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    Patents are not a way for the first person who does something to stop everyone else from doing it. It's a way to stop everyone after you from doing it with your invention, long enough to make back your investment, so people are protected when they publish the blueprints for their unique device. When they patent processes, human interactions, they are stopping the "progress" in arts and science that the Constitution defines as the value of the compromise in the government creating that temporary monopoly. Everything else is abuse.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  70. they're trying to patent Plato Learning by swschrad · · Score: 1

    and Control Data already did that in the early 80s. I think that qualifies as prior art. Bad monolith, BAD. No cookies for you.

    --
    if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
  71. Dangerous assumption ... by quarkscat · · Score: 1

    Many of Microsoft's new software patents
    are (arguably) based upon "prior art" that
    the USPTO should have recognised. Microsoft
    (and any other company seeking very general
    software patents) are presumably working on
    the premise that during the time between the
    "patent pending" status, gaining USPTO approval
    and a patent, and its eventual elimination
    through the judicial review process, the ability
    to "restrict & prevent" other companies' access
    to the "software patent" is worth a lot of
    money. So long as the legal costs incurred
    through the judicial process is less than the
    perceived monetary gain from "squatting" on an
    invalid "software patent", this USPTO merry-go-
    round will continue. What is really needed is
    legislation to seriously penalize the "squatter"
    with monetary damages that would far exceed the
    perceived gain from their "window of opportunity".
    Of course, even with such legislation, some
    companies (like Microsoft) that have very deep
    pockets would still make the gamble. Enough
    losing lawsuits (and the penalties) would
    eventually draw the ire of the shareholders,
    the SEC, and the FTC.

  72. Programmed Instruction -- prior art by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Programmed instruction has been around since at least the 1970's, and that's just a codification of what a moderately engaged tutor naturally does with flash cards and a dull or unmotivated student. Even if Microsoft were the first to apply a computer to the task, it wouldn't be patentable.

  73. You don't need to learn that.. by zome · · Score: 1

    .. it will come naturally...

  74. Re:China: Piracy of Patents by krayfx · · Score: 1

    i beieve, only some important technologies need to be patented, and defintely not toys or some smalltime shit. the argument to this might be where do we draw the line to see what is smalltime. whatever it is. currently the ptants help only the rich, the moneyed, the MNCs, the developed countries. thats it. given the way corporations like MS are aggressively patenting trivial subjects - I feel we have a long a protracted feud in a few years to come! and that time - it would be the frustration of people - there might be small colonies who would want themselves to be like the amish - just want to live in peace - and run a parallel world free of corporations and structures!

  75. et tu, TuxRacer ? by Quiberon · · Score: 1

    TuxRacer is educational and gives pretty unstructured feedback (how else did the summer golf course version come about). 'Your patent has prior art' :-)

  76. what I meant to say... by westlake · · Score: 1

    ...was that the patent seems to address a very real problem that doesn't have any obvious, well-established, solution.

    1. Re:what I meant to say... by The+Cisco+Kid · · Score: 1

      Sure it does (have a solution).

      Dont try to use a computer to teach writing - use a goddamn pencil and paper.

      I'm a computer geek, linux geek, net geek, etc. But shoving more computers in classrooms, especially in the grades below about middle school, is a BAD idea.

  77. I support by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I were usin MZ sofwore fer edoocatin . It iz goood an workeds fer mi.

    Tanks.

  78. This patent is horseshit. by mizhi · · Score: 2

    My PhD research centers around a system that provides pronunciation feedback in response to a task-oriented dialogue situation. Assuming that MS considers speech to be unstructured input, I can cite several instances of systems similar to what microsoft is describing. Some of them are a couple DECADES old.

    Their patent is bullshit.

    --
    Humorless sig goes here.
  79. 17 doesn't divide 321 by SamSim · · Score: 1

    ...17 doesn't divide 321

  80. Clippy.... by Gopal.V · · Score: 1

    You see they patented Clippy .... and of course the "Press F1 for Help" stuff ... :)

    Thankfully now no-one will use a clippyesque helper .

  81. Do some structured research... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Instead of whining about this patent application (no, it isn't a patent yet), why not do some structured research, instead?

    Here is some suggested research to help reduce the level of whining and unstructured, unfunny so-called "jokes" by people who seem rather ill-informed:

    (1) Most patent applications have been published in the U.S. for about 3 years now. Why not go through these and find out how many of Microsoft's applications that have been published in those three years have actually been granted as a real patent?

    Sure, many of the recently published applications may not have had time to be examined yet, but certainly some of the older ones have. But if not many of the latter have issued as real patents, the Patent and Trademark Office might be doing a better job examining and/or rejecting them than you think.

    (2) Of those patent applications that have issued as patents, why not compare the claims that issued with the patent against the claims that were filed in the patent application? The claims are the legally operative part of a patent application -- they give notice as to what the patent owner can exclude others from doing or making. (In Slashdotland, it's the abstract and the abstract alone that tells you this, but rest assured, Slashdotland is the only place where that's the case.)

    Applying for a patent is like listing a house for sale. The asking price of the seller is almost always bargained down by the buyer (i.e., the PTO). Thus, the claims of the issued patent may differ significantly from the claims requested by an applicant. If you are too young to relate to this analogy, compare the patent application to a high school kid's application to use the car so that he or she can stay out all night with his or her friends -- the fact that the kid applied for it doesn't necessarily mean that his or her parents are going to grant the request, or that the kid isn't going to have to amend his request to something more reasonable before it is granted.

    If the claims of an issued patent differ significantly from the claims of the filed patent application, that might tell you that the Patent and Trademark Office agreed with you that the claims requested when the application was filed were too broad and could not withstand the prior art. These differences might also highlight what the Patent and Trademark Office actually believes is new and patentable about the invention.

    It seems like either of these research topics would not take too much work, as it is fairly easy to search for old Microsoft patent applications and recent Microsoft issued patents, and the application serial number can be used to serve as a key into both the patent application database and the issued patent database at the PTO's website. Yet I am amazed that, insofar as I am able to tell, no one here has ever suggested to do this research before for any representative patents.

  82. best way to fight MS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    is make its alternatives stop sucking. Stop requiring the user to be intimate with each detail of their system and stop requiring them to give up their lives just to get a working system... then try and actually ENGINEER the system to be usable by developers looking to implement solutions and not just hacks looking to tweak up their hobby

  83. gcompris future may be at risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am Bruno, the author of gcompris. I looked briefly at the pattent. I don't understand it clearly but there is not currently in gcompris a very advanced feedback agent. We are probably not at risk today. In the future, we are under risk by this patent. It's clearly a natural evolution to provide more and more feedback with the most possible accuracy to a child. Now it may be impossible to improve gcompris in this area.

    There is a concern with their patent because it applies also to teachers. If a teacher give an exercise on a computer and want to give an audio (voice is audio if I remember) instructional response. So far, teacher did this since the invention of schools I believe. MS just replaced the pen by a keyboard.

    I can't be sure but as for gcompris, I did not get any request to add a feature like that. It sounds complex to implement, will be probably unreliable and bring more confusion than it saves. I bet on the teachers for giving an appropriate feedback. Can you spell skippy.

  84. Re:PLATO - Mod Up - Patented in '68! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, and PLATO lives today: http://www.cyber1.org/