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Palm OS To Run On Linux
mwk88 writes "PalmSource today announced it is acquiring China Mobile Soft, a leading Chinese mobile phone software company, and will offer future versions of Palm OS Cobalt running on Linux. Full disclosure: I am a PalmSource employee -- but also a Slashdot reader, and would like to get some feedback. You can find more detail in this letter to the Linux community." NewsForge (also part of OSTG) has a textified (non-PDF), linked version of the letter.
I think it's a nice idea.. Get the best of both worlds.. Look at the Macintosh.. they got tons of software added to their platform by adopting BSD as their OS.
Previously there had been some rumors of PalmOne, the maker of the Palm PDAs and the Treo smartphone, doing Windows Mobile-powered Treo.
c hinamobilesoft/
All this pretty much feels like PalmOS is having its days counted.
Vincent
http://www.oberle.org/blog/2004/12/08/palmsource-
Just yesterday one of our lead support people internally at my institution (Carleton College) commented that people are having sync problems with SP2, and noted that interest in support issues like this seems to be waning, and that less and less really interesting news seems to be coming out about Palm OS. Her impression is that there's serious trouble.
Another outfit in serious trouble was Novell. The situations aren't entirely comparable, of course, but affiliating themselves with the open-source movement seems to have turned Novell (which looked a bit moribund just a few years ago) into an interesting outfit. This move also appears to have opened up new possibilities that nobody could
have foreseen.
So who knows. If Palm OS were able to run under Linux, perhaps some new possibilities would open up there as well, especially given that Linux isn't just a platform on which Palm OS could run, but also a kind of nascent competitor in the mobile device arena.
I don't think halfway measures will help much, though. And the statement cited in the original posting (the PDF file) shows some ambivalence to the whole notion of open-source software.
We'll just have to see where this leads.
---- Richard L. Goerwitz III
If I read this properly - what Palmsource actually plans is a symbiosis between Linux and Palm-OS - while keeping Palm-OS proprietary and closed-source software.
It shows a few similarities with Mac-OS X imho - you can run Linux-software AND Palm software on the same platform.
Slashdot: stuff for news, nerds that matter, matter for news, stuff that nerd
Sharp's Zaurus PDA already runs Linux, yet is doing enormously poorly in the USA (not sure how successful it is; suspect in Japan it's doing better). If anyone can bring Linux to the palm of your hand, PalmSource can.
Sharp: it's not too late for you. Maybe an interoperability agreement with PalmSource would help?
So, forgive my lack of Linux knowledge but, will Palm OS on linux be like KDE or Gnome on linux in the sense that it's a GUI that sits on linux? I'm just trying to understand how this will work and why it's a good idea.
You are a PalmSource employee, so we trust you to know what you're talking about.
But you are a slashdot reader, so you won't have read TFA.
This is a dilly of a pickle.
There's a textafied version underneath. This guy was kind enough to consider us people who dislike adobe/acrobat.
*yeah, yeah, we know we don't have to use acrobat, there are billions of readers out there, blah blah blah*
I have been a Palm fan since I got my 3Com Palm III back in the '90s. I recently bought a Tungsten. It is simple to use and has a brilliant interface. (If only they'd bring back Grafitti I.) .prc apps run without much of an issue, and if they keep the interface similar, I don't really care what OS is being used - Palm OS or Embedded Linux. My main concern will simply be integration with my (now six year old) data files.
If the old Palm
On the flip side, I'd love to see a Palm-created synch tool for my home machine which runs almost exclusively on SuSE. Right now I have to use the sometimes flaky KPilot and I get issues with AvantGo.
The Kai's Semi-Updated Website Thingy
The new OS5 already has emulation capabilities for the Motorola processors of the older palms. I wonder if the linux will run an OS5 emulator that will emulate the motorola CPUs...
Two questions on the tip of my tongue were answered outright and the section gives good perspective on the angle company is taking. From the article:
My suggestion: scroll down for the good stuff. It's at the bottom of the article.
Of blankness, I know nothing.
Does anybody even buy palmtop computers anymore? For about ten minutes, every executive wanted one to replace their paper-based Franklin Daytimer, but now it seems that everybody uses their cell phones to do 90% of what they actually used their Palm computers for (address book & schedule reminders), and everybody just brings yellow legal pads to meetings when they want to pretend that they are taking notes and paying attention.
It's been about three years since I've seen anybody take notes on a palmtop in a meeting, and if somebody did they would probably be laughed at.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
From the article it's clear that they are basically using Linux to replace the previous kernel they used. They're porting PalmOS as a layer on top of a Linux kernel instead of whatever it was they had before.
Hopefully it will mean a sane development environment for new apps (threads!), while still providing a backwards compatible mode for existing apps.
does it run WinCE?
Can they do all this without linking or modifying the underlying kernel Linux? I assume that they have carefully considered the implications of the GPL. This project sounds cool, but I think I would have chosen something like NetBSD & its less restrictive BSD license.
Think global, act loco
A few reasons:
- A large base of existing handheld apps
- A well-designed UI for mobile devices
- A familiar brand for consumers
- Longer-term, may make for easier porting of Palm OS to new devices
EricView your HTTP headers here
" Linux is a trademark owned by William R. Della Croce, an individual, and previously owned by Linus Torvalds, the originator of the GNU code of the same name." wrong! The Linux Trademark suit (1996-1997) Though this has been tried again in other countries, the definitive case over the trademark on "Linux" happenned after an individual named William R Della Croce, Jr of Massachussets fraudulently trademarked the name "Linux", claiming he had made the first use of the name in 1994. Nobody noticed until he sent threatening letters to WGS of Aurora, CO (Linux Mall), Yggdrasil of San Jose, CA (first maker of a Linux distribution on CD) and others. The Linux community provided ample evidence that this was not true. The resulting lawsuit was settled with the trademark being assigned to Linus Torvalds. Right!
I'd bet everyone would love a Hairy Palm in their pocket.
Oh, wait... this is Slashdot... they already do...
500GB of disk, 5TB of transfer, $5.95/mo
Full disclosure: I am a PalmSource employee -- and I am scared shitless because I don't know Linux. HELP!
I tried for 5 years to come up with a clever sig...only to realize that I am not clever.
What we need is not new software; it's new hardware. We need a Palm that has a real serial port, real USB expansion when it's sitting on a desktop, takes real compact flash (CF) cards (not those tiny palm things,) and has the option to read off of a real screen (that takes up the whole side of the palm; not 1/2 of it.) Also, most importantly, it must take real (AA) batteries. Internal rechargables don't work for those of us who use our plams 16 hours a day. Give me that in a Palm, and I'll arrange an order of 500. Andy Out!
Q. Will I be able to upgrade my current Palm Powered . device to Palm OS for Linux? A. We'll know if this is possible once the Palm OS for Linux software development is finished. In general, licensees are reluctant to offer operating system upgrades on any mobile platform because they don't sell well --the people most interested in upgrading their OS also tend to upgrade their hardware as well. So... maybe
Actually, I wrote it in HTML but somewhere in the post-to-the-corporate-website process it popped out in pdf; hmmm, the mysteries of corporate IT :) However glad that we got the text version linked back in here.
mwk
There is already an excellent cross platform, Open Source PalmOS synchronization solution that runs on Linux (and Mac OSX and Windows and OS/2 and Solaris and everywhere else) called the jSyncManager.
It has all of the necessary APIs for synchronizing calendars and accessing the handheld Expansion Manager and Virtual File System.
What it needs it some more jConduit plug-ins written for accessing popular Linux applications. However, it has an extensive API and is licensed under the GPL/LGPL, so Palm (or anyone else) could very easily create a Linux-integrated synchronization tool if they so desired.
Brad BARCLAY
Lead Developer & Project Administrator,
The jSyncManager Project.
Yes. ::raises hand::
For about ten minutes, every executive wanted one to replace their paper-based Franklin Daytimer, but now it seems that everybody uses their cell phones to do 90% of what they actually used their Palm computers for (address book & schedule reminders), and everybody just brings yellow legal pads to meetings when they want to pretend that they are taking notes and paying attention.
Integrating phone functionality with PalmOS is a priority at PalmOne. Handspring made the (possibly ill-conceived) announcement that it would "only be developing communicators" (PDA+phone devices) shortly before being absorbed by PalmOne. The Treo 650 is widely regarded as being a good device, though I've heard some rumors about poor voice quality.
For me, the holy grail would be decent voice control, a Bluetooth headset, and still no buttons/keypad on the device so it can have more screen area.
It's been about three years since I've seen anybody take notes on a palmtop in a meeting, and if somebody did they would probably be laughed at.
I take notes at meetings using one all the time. Nobody laughs... ;-)
No current phone except the Treo has the horsepower (CPU+memory) of a decent PDA. I'm actually ambivalent about adding phone functionality due to the additional battery drain. I guess the alternative is vastly improved battery technology. For me, the beauty of a PDA is having a computer with me constantly - which translates into an infallible memory plus lots of powerful and entertaining capabilities.
Galileo: "The Earth revolves around the Sun!"
Score: -1 100% Flamebait
In the project that I'm on, I've pushed for (and successfully gotten) Palms used for interfacing to the electronics in the project. They're far, far more useful than laptops for simple interfacing stuff (anything that can be interfaced with RS232, or nowadays USB). Cheaper, more rugged, much more visible in sunlight, and more importantly, far easier to use. Ever try typing on a keyboard in sub-freezing weather with high winds? Uck.
(On a side bad note, do try to keep Palms slightly in the shade. The screens tend to darken significantly with heat from direct sunlight).
Palms have been used for
and lots, lots more. To be honest, part of the reason that I bought a Palm for my own personal use is that I wanted to support them. A cheap PocketPC device is $150. A cheap Palm is under $100.
Plus, really, who wants to program for a Windows device? Palm even has a Linux programming chain, and a Linux simulator for Palm OS.
While the OS is probably fine for the current generation of PDA's, several underlying reasons for this change might exist...first, by using the "free as in beer" linux kernel instead of a non-open source competitor, they might be saving money on licensing costs. Secondly, since the original kernel is already written, the "owners" might not be willing to invest much into new features, whereas funding the development of new features might prove cost effective. Whatever the reason, money certainly comes into play.
In
Perhaps this will help in extending hardware support for Palm. Wouldn't it be technically possible to run it as an OS on a small laptop? Like Microsoft's use of .net mobile, the Palm OS could run on anything from a watch to something like the NetBook from Psion. This is a great move, and I'd love to see if I could get it running as a VM on my PowerBook.
that Microsoft have any interest at all in fixing it? ;-)
Over the years, I've bought a few PDA's, but they've never lived up to their hype for me. Their usefulness was limited for a variety of reasons.
What I want is the holy grail. The single device that I can use for everything. MP3's, PDA, Cell Phone, Digital Camera, etc...
HP has a few nice units coming out that are almost there, but they're missing the crucial part: A hard drive ala iPod.
Give me a PDA with wireless (802.11 + Cell/3G wireless), bluetooth, 10-40GB hard drive (hell, i'd even settle for the 4GB iPod mini hard drive at this juncture), 128MB+ memory, fast processor (200Mhz+), 1.3MP Digital Camera or better (with flash!), sliding minikeyboard that slides over a larger display (kind of like a cross between the Clie NZ90 and the Treo or Zaurus)...
Then make it convenient to carry and use. Obviously you're not going to get all those features into an ultra compact form factor, but something the size of an NZ90 should be doable.
The big problem, of course, is power. That sucker will eat batteries like they're potato chips. So, there needs to be a big, high power battery, and the ability to swap batteries easily without disturbing the applications.
I don't care what it costs. I'd pay it.
If you need web hosting, you could do worse than here
Even with all the existing GPL-software for Palm devices on Linux, Palm doesn't include it on the CD-ROM they ship with the devices, they don't list Linux as supported operating system and needless to say, they will tell you to go away when you have a problem synching with Linux.
It's the actions that count, not the words.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
As a developer of both PalmOS (5.x) and Linux apps (and Windows apps, too), here's how my work can best be delivered to users of this system:
- GNU toolchain that compiles single projects of source files for the Palm/Linux distro OR straight Linux
- Gtk/Qt2Protein API map, as a gcc preprocessor for initial porting
- A tiny Palm/Linux object DB, so GUI/logic/data components can be remixed into new apps with a minimum of API glue (or scripts)
This is a really exciting development. If IBM had included DOS as a mode in S/390 mainframes in 1980, the available programmers and programs would have multiplied. We'd not only have gotten years ahead, but the rate of growth would have been accelerated. The PC would have replaced the mainframe for most apps, except massive batches and other processing suited to a climate-controlled office. I can't wait for PCs to become an artifact solely of the geek office, with "phones" the standard infotool for everyone else, all integrated over the wireless Internet. Thanks again, Palm!
--
make install -not war
I forgot the tags and more importantly forgot to mention where some of the text was taken from. This is how it should have looked:
" Linux is a trademark owned by William R. Della Croce, an individual, and previously owned by Linus Torvalds, the originator of the GNU code of the same name."
wrong!
"The Linux Trademark suit (1996-1997) Though this has been tried again in other countries, the definitive case over the trademark on "Linux" happenned after an individual named William R Della Croce, Jr of Massachussets fraudulently trademarked the name "Linux", claiming he had made the first use of the name in 1994. Nobody noticed until he sent threatening letters to WGS of Aurora, CO (Linux Mall), Yggdrasil of San Jose, CA (first maker of a Linux distribution on CD) and others. The Linux community provided ample evidence that this was not true. The resulting lawsuit was settled with the trademark being assigned to Linus Torvalds."
from: http://www.linux10.org/history/
Right!
For what it's worth, Palm OS Cobalt already does have full support for multi-threaded programming in the Protein APIs.
Can I just be pedantic and point out that both your problems are with PalmOne , not with PalmSource?
So you should welcome this announcement, because is should mean PalmOs becomes available on a wider range of hardware.
~~~~~ BigLig2? You mean there's another one of me?
Hmmm...
;) ).
If I recall correctly, PalmSource bought the BeOS sourcecode after it had failed in the marketplace.
Everyone expected PalmSource to use the BeOS code as a basis to built another mobile OS on.
Now that PalmSource has announced that they would be running future versions of PalmOS on top of Linux, that previous plan has apparently been axed.
Well, in that case I do have a great proposal for PalmSource if they if they are prepared to give something back to the Open Source community: by releasing the BeOS sourcecode under the GPL or any another acceptable OSI-compliant license.
I'll tell you this, mwk88: if PalmSource were to release the BeOS sourcecode, they would create a tremendous amount of goodwill throughout the entire OSS/FS community, even among many of us that do't use BeOS. And with that, you'd be attracting many talented volunteers who are prepared to help customize and optimize Linux for PalmOS. I can't think of any other use that PalmSource would have for BeOS, now that they're switching to a Linux-based platform.
Please do this, PalmSource. If you do, I'm sure you'll become the next cool open-source friendly company idolized on Slashdot (sorry, Novell
"Oooh, does that mean we get to kick some puffy white mad zionist butt?"
Since Palmsource neglects to document ANY of their changed APIs in the applications, every byte has to be reverse-engineered from scratch. I think we've done a pretty amazing job at creating what exists today, given that we've had NO help, NO docs, and FEW devices to work with.
This kind of reverse-engineering requires real devices, the simulators (which are Windows only, forcing us to buy Windows licenses, just to reverse-engineer an undocumented protocol, so users can sync their Palm devices on Linux).
These devices cost money, lots of money, since every vendor has proprietary extensions which require special handling (Sony has photos in the Addressbook, Palm has cross-midnight calendar functionality, etc.) Since none of us get paid for our pilot-link work, or any Palm synchronization work on Linux for that matter, there isn't a lot of incentive to fund these $400 devices every few months.
And if you had actually read our mailing list, you would see that SD cards work fine now, but Birthdays aren't supported yet, because there are bigger things to address in the codebase first, like working around the chip-level bugs in the T5 and Zire31 devices.
The code for the new Contacts API is already in CVS, but there is nothing in userland to talk to it yet. Its coming, just not right now. I'm not going to introduce any new functionality until we figure out all of the bugs and issues with existing functionality first.
And lastly, pilot-link is the project that comes up with all of this code, from scratch, with the help of some very talented developers. Anyone else who claims compatibility with these devices on these platforms, is using our code in their projects. Period.
My wife has a Nintendo DS, and I was flipping through the specs on it the other day. Its is AMAZING!!!! for $150 she got a piece of hardware with 2 screens, 1 of which is a touch screen, 2 ARM CPUs (a 7 and a 9, IIRC), and 802.11 wireless. Sure it is great for games, but that thing could also double as a PDA, given the right software package. So, would there be any way Palm could sell a DS "game" cartridge with, say, PalmOS, a couple apps, and a few MBs of storage? No need for a USB connection, as the wireless could transfer data to/from a PC. And the hardware is there already, and should probably be compatible (I assume some PDAs use ARM cpus?)... so please, do this! My wife has always been interested in PDAs, but they are too expensive as a stand-alone for what they do (at least to us). Imagine reaching out to a bunch of people that will have the Nintendo DS over the next few years... :)
William George
I bet the Nintendo DS is sold at a loss, and Nintendo makes the profits from games. Thus, they'd probably deny the license to product such an application, because people would buy DS's just to be PDA's and not for games, costing them money.
Either that or they'd sell the PDA cart at an outrageous price to make up the loss.
-Z
I think some Palm OS architecture/history is in order here. Porting Palm OS to Linux will not be a revolutionary step for PalmSource, because Palm OS (at least until version 5 and 6) does not encompass an OS kernel. Palm OS through version 4 ran on the Kadak AMX kernel, and part of the reason it was so limited (no multitasking or threading) was due to license agreements with Kadak. In Palm OS 5, (then) Palm, Inc. ported their OS piece to ARM devices, and started exposing new multithreading APIs available in the kernel (whether the 5.x kernel is AMX or another is unclear to me; Palm has rarely acknowledged it ever used AMX in the first place). In fact, one of the major features of PalmSource's "Protein" APIs is to allow maximum portability of Palm OS applications, regardless of device underpinnings. Ultimately, though it will take a lot of work for PalmSource's programmers, porting Palm OS to run on the Linux kernel should not be terribly hard, because its architecture is designed to be relatively kernel-independent.
Now, for my opinions:
Palm should have based Palm OS 5 (which PalmSource now calls Garnet) on the Linux kernel, and immediately started exposing Linux features through their API layer. The mess that OS 5/Garnet has turned out to be is just sad. And though OS 6 (Cobalt) has some nice screenshots, no Cobalt devices exist, even after it has been available for a year. Palm OS still has neither full multitasking nor a true filesystem. PalmSource's latest stab at a filesystem, NVFS, has caused their only important licensee, PalmOne, no end of embarrassment, and has rendered the Tungsten T5 and Treo 650 almost useless for many consumers. While Palm/Source/One insisted for many years devices like these didn't need advanced features like filesystems and multitasking, in reality they are needed for the applications people want.
And speaking of applications, it is, relatively speaking, difficult to write Palm OS applications. The Windows CE/Mobile (or whatever they're calling it this week) API is a subset of Win32. Writing for QTopia or another Linux-based PDA platform is not unlike writing a normal Linux app. Even writing J2ME apps isn't terribly hard, though the API is limited. Writing Palm OS apps is weird, and confusing. PalmSource has helped a little by making Eclipse their preferred IDE, but Palm apps still work like nothing else, and you can forget porting code between platforms. Thus, there is an advantage to using Linux as the new kernel, since one would hope you would be able to port existing Linux-based code to the new platform, and make calls to it from the Palm OS API layer. This assumes PalmSource doesn't mess things up like they did with NVFS.
Ultimately, however, I believe this move by PalmSource is too little, too late. Had this move been made with OS 5, they could have had something. Now that there are no devices or apps for the current Palm OS version, and the first pieces of Linux won't show up until the next version (OS 7?), I believe device makers and app developers will have lost all interest in the Palm OS platform by the time Palm OS for Linux sees the light of day. Windows Mobile and Symbian will take over the majority of the smartphone market, while a small number of phones and PDAs will use Linux. Meanwhile, the Linux on HP/Dell/etc. PocketPC movement will become stronger, since those devices will be readily available, and there will be a small dedicated core of people to write great software for it (case in point: Opie).
--Mythos
They might well agree for a "nominal" price. People could then justify the purchase of the Nintendo as a business expense...but now that they have it, they might as well look at the games that are available...
(That's one of the ways the PC overtook the Mac. Apple was determined to shed it's image as a gamer's computer, so they intentionally made it difficult to develop good games. It worked. The gamer's bought PC's. Apple's market share sunk like a rock to 10%. [I know it's less now, it slowed at around 10% and declined gradually from there.])
People talk about price, but price wasn't usually the determining factor. A good excuse, but not the deciding factor. The business name of IBM was an important part, but so was the availability of games. And the DOS games could be played under MSWind3.1, so even Apple's first-mover advantage didn't help them enough. People lie about why they decide things. They give you plausible reasons that make them look good, but one can almost always come up with a plausible reason to justify a choice made on emotional grounds.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Yeah, if a product is too good, no-one will upgrade. Novell did such a good job with NW3.x that it almost bankrupted them.
No good deed goes unpunished.
Just download Graffiti1.zip from http://zansstuff.com/palm, read the instructions in how_to.txt carefully, and you will soon be up and running with Graffiti 1 again.