Slashdot Mirror
ReactOS Runs On The XBox
KJK::Hyperion continues "This port definitely establishes two facts: the XBox is nothing but a broken PC, and the kernel + HAL design that ReactOS inherited from Windows is sound - all of the changes to the core system necessary for the XBox port (namely, the blacklisting of a buggy PCI device and handling the fixed partition table on the built-in hard disk) were limited to the HAL. This is a first, important step towards better portability, as it has already underlined some shortcomings in our build system.
What the port is lacking is hardware support: especially, ReactOS has no USB support at the moment, so it basically just sits there being pretty, because mouse and keyboard won't work. The network and video cards should be mostly identical to their "real" counterparts, so the Windows drivers for them should work (except the video card, a modified GeForce - it's been established we need some HAL trickery to make the Windows driver load). We wouldn't mind some help :-)
To run ReactOS on the XBox you need our custom version of the Cromwell boot loader (not released yet) and the XBox HAL for for ReactOS."
MS windows emulator on a peice of MS hardware .... nice
but will it run Linux?
Oh wait...
I'd never heard of ReactOS before this posting, and so I checked it out. I'm impressed by what they've done so far, but not the seven years it took them to do it. It's still VERY early pre-alpha software. Maybe now that all the basic pieces are in place it will pick up speed, but I suspect it will have the same trouble WINE runs into: it's chasing a moving target, and it's way behind. WINE, at least, decided to implement newer APIs found in Windows 2000 and XP. ReactOS has not. So even when they hit a 1.0 or stable release, they're going to be so far behind that not that much Windows software will run on it.
How am I supposed to fit a pithy, relevant quote into 120 characters?
This is all getting a little silly.
I see this more as a proof of the power of ReactOS than the XBox. If it is a crippled PC it should be easy to port to (note: I have not tried, so I don't really know, but it should not be *that* hard), however porting an OS (specifically a similar-to-Windows one) so easily is a great sign for ReactOS. Makes me even more interested in what this could become (stable, embedded, Windows x86 EXE compatable, OSes anyone?).
WASTE - The Secure P2P
When will they get ReactOS working on a PC?
Now the cheapest personal computer running windows you can buy! Under $200 USD!
Yeah, I think ReactOS will make Microsoft "react" since it's a Windows clone. You are the weakest link, goodbye.
... Of course if Apple circumvents (Real) ... it's their RIGHT!
I love it how the geeks will uproar about MS taking measures to prevent their console from doing things that it shouldn't
Does Minesweeper support Xbox Live?
My ISP won't talk to me after lodging a support call for helping gettting ADSL hooked up to a WinXP install running under VMWare under Linux on my XBox.
So could you theoretically build a new HAL for XP and get it to work on an XBox? Or for that matter any weird x86 architecture? I suppose it may be hard to do this without using the source, but it's not impossible. It'd be an interesting project.
The point with ReactOS isn't to keep up with the latest and greatest. ReactOS with full NT4 compatibility will have a function in many offfices, that still have a huge NT4 presence, but are find that they are coming to the end of their support life cycle with Microsoft. ReactOS would squeeze a little more life out of their systems, and would also provide an easier upgrade path to a straight Linux system than simply going Windows --> Linux.
Home users are a different breed to corporate users, and tend to want the latest version of an OS. Of course, ReactOS is in no position to compete with XP, but wouldn't we be hoping that rather than chosing Windows XP, home users will eventually be installing one of the multitude of distros available?
Sunday you're Thinking Different, Monday you're a huge tool, paying too much and waiting to think like everyone else.
NT 4.0 is not a "moving target." The project has no plans to implement the features of 2k and XP. I've seen a lot of "RTFA" cases, but this post is the first I've seen where the writer has neglected to read the quote he's included in his own post.
The cached HTML doc refers to the image on the original server. You're not helping.
The most rabid believers in American Exceptionalism are the exact same people whose policies are destroying it.
... a great project for the developers, since they gain a hell of a lot of marketable experience building the OS; I'm sure it's quite fun too. But outside of that, it's a total waste of time. These people are very talented... drop this and join the Linux movement! They are re-inventing a wheel that Linux has already long since created. Take that drive and knowledge, and apply it towards building a windows emulation layer in Linux. Hell, join WINE and make their app commercially usable. Another alternative, if you are that confident that your solution will be better than the NT core, is to simply join MS and make the NT kernel stronger (and make a nice mint in the process).
ReactOS will keep these people busy and entertained, but in the end will never result in any singificant piece of operating system.
When XBOX runs Longhorn, then I'll think about switching.
This must be some new meaning of 'running' an OS I was unaware of.
Anyone want a 'running' Mac SE 30 with ethernet card? Drop me an email.
SAILING MISHAP
That's like saying an AthlonXP emulates a Pentium4. It's reimplementing something, not emulating it.
-Erwos
Plausible conjecture should not be misrepresented as proof positive.
Anyone know what chip houses the USB controller on the XBox?
I think it's the one on the right.
So what you're saying is it emulates an API. Right?
No more than my car emulates a mode of transportation employing paved streets, or Mentat's MPS emulates SVR4 STREAMS (or even BSD sockets).
Wine implements the API.
Probably not, since Xbox 2 will be using a G5 proc...the next big craze will be getting OS X to run on Xbox 2.
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
this will help their steaming, smoking server... I believe mirrordot has a local copy of the image.
Screenshot (pops)
USB controller is in the nVidia southbridge, then there is a 4 port USB hub chip connecting to the USB ports that are gameports.
Why would people spend their free time on a project to re-implement Windows? Their answer from their FAQ:
.dlls for mswindows in cases where you think it's broken? This is something you'd have to write in the first place if you're going to reimplement the whole goddamn system, and seems a lot more productive. Alternatively, why not work productively to improve Linux or a BSD variant so it has the supposed "advantages" that you find in mswindows?
"Reliability, subsystems, filesystem drivers, services and the registry
are all good concepts which are implemented well in the NT kernel.
Not everything is perfect, but without access to the source code, we can't fix it, so we're choose to clone it."
WTF? I can understand WINE, if you have a legacy binary application that is windows-only. But poorly re-implementing windows? They will probably *never* get full compatibility with windows, so it will always be an inferior solution -- some "fix". I'm tempted to think these ReactOS people are clinically insane.
If a ReactOS dev is listening here, explain this to me: why don't you just create drop-in replacement
501 Not Implemented
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Comment removed based on user account deletion
_can_ you _please_ limit your use of _underlines_?
The xbox is not a crippled PC, it's a game console, and a damn good one at that. I'm not a Microsoft fanboy (I'm an OS X fanboy), but the xbox is the best console I've ever had, and I've had every major one for the last 10 years, including the Dreamcast. The hard drive kicks ass, mine is modded for the xbox media center, the games look great and optical out to dolby digital was easy with the advanced pack.
Just kidding, good work all.
itadakimasu
I look forward to the modded controllers with CTRL/ALT/DEL. Kick, block shoot and reboot.
I'd like to see Plan-9 for XBOX, now that would be some funky fun to be had.
Ok, first off: I hate Windows. I hate its stupid UI, its ugly fonts, and the company that produces it. I jumped ship and switched to Linux before Windows 95 came out. I mean, I hate it, and I would never run an OS that even superficially resembles it. That includes ReactOS.
But.
ReactOS is a perfect example of the OSS spirit. Lots of folks here have been making comments along the lines of "You ought to be working on Linux" or "You ought to be working on WINE" or the like. It surprises me that a site as devoted to the OSS concept would parrot such ridiculous drivel.
It's possible that Linux-based OSS has gotten so popular that we now have lusers of our own. You know what makes a hacker? Someone who codes because he (or she) loves to code. Loves, you know? Not to be productive. Not because they want to change the world. These things may be true of some hackers, but these things alone do not a hacker make.
There was a time when people here respected this. When the majority of Slashdotters were active hackers themselves. Don't be fooled by my high UID -- I remember those times. We wrote software because we loved to. I rather suspect that lots of folks would have told Tim Berners Lee that the web was a dead end idea, or that at the very least it would never be useful. Lots of people have belittled Linux over the years using the same flaccid arguments.
You know GNU? The group that started it all? What was their goal? To produce a free UNIX. Yes, a clone. You understand this? In those days, there was no Windows (1984). A hacker at MIT decided that he wasn't going to put up with this proprietary software bullshit and he said, "I'm going to make a free UNIX clone." And people laughed at him. They said it would never happen. But it did, didn't it? I'm typing this from my Debian GNU/Linux workstation. People like Stallman and Torvalds made that happen. All they wanted was a free OS to replace the one they used at school/work and loved.
Now, most of us (myself included) dislike Windows. We dislike Microsoft (but then, I'm sure RMS disliked IBM, Sun and HP, too). But aren't you missing the point? Some guys like Windows. They like its interface. But like RMS, they demand freedom. Freedom, you know? In this world of the business-friendly "Open Source" movement, people seem to have forgotten this concept, the concept that motivated hackers to create a free UNIX in the first place. It's easy to forget about uncomfortable, uncomprimising ideals like Freedom. But people like Richard Stallman and Theo De Raadt -- and even Linus -- for all their failings -- are motivated by this ideal.
ReactOS is simply another GNU project. But this time, the hackers that have undertaken it aren't fond of the UNIX way. So what? They like an OS I don't like, but so the fuck what? Look at what they're doing. They're creating a free replacement. Free. As in Freedom, you know. So people everywhere that like Windows can use Free Software.
As difficult as it is for me, a unix-geek, to believe, some people don't like UNIX. Some people prefer VMS (I actually quite like VMS and wouldn't mind a FreeVMS). Some people prefer Windows. BeOS. Whatever.
People seem to think that if these guys weren't working on ReactOS, they'd be working on Linux, or BSD, or the HURD, or whatever pet project you have. But that's not how it works. Developers scratch and itch, you know? Because they're coding for love, because they like to code. Not for you. Not so that you can sit on your fat ass and benefit from their work. They do it for themselves, in an ultimately selfish way, to scratch their personal itches. And if you benefit, that's great.
Lusers are people that think FS devs are out to serve them. But guess what: just because you discovered Linux last week and found out that you can run on your machine and get work done doesn't mean that its a "product" that is being "produced" for you to consume. It's a labour of love, made by
Doesn't a CPU emulator also implement the specification of the CPU?
Yes, and so does the native CPU. I wouldn't say that implementing a foo is sufficient to say that it's emulating a foo.
I suppose it comes down to a definition question, but here's the basic rule-of-thumb I might tend to work from (and it's just off the top of my head):
An emulator:
Wine meets the first criterion: it implements the Win32 API. It also meets the second. However, it does not meet the third, because it doesn't track much state. It doesn't need to track file descriptors, or TCP/IP connections, etc, because it can leave that to the underlying OS.
Generally, I call something meeting 1, 2, and 3 an emulator. If it meets 1 and 2, I tend to refer to it as a "compatibility layer". Wine is an example. So is the Linux compatibility layer of FreeBSD (which is sometimes informally referred to as the "linuxulator", but this is taken as a fun name rather than a formal description). I'm writing a compatibility layer for a project at work now, to translate $myproj v1 API calls to $myproj v2 for-- you guessed it-- backwards compatibility. But the v2 portion tracks all the state.
I don't generally refer to things as an emulator unless they meet all three. Bochs is an emulator. So are SPIM and WABI. VMware is an interesting case: it emulates most of the hardware, but only a little bit of the CPU; the bulk of the CPU work is done natively.
If you don't consider Nitfol or a JVM as emulators, you may want to add the criterion that the interface they implement must primarily exist in a non-emulating implementation. I probably would include that criterion, but that would mean I'd have to go back and edit this post.
Woah, control yourself. I actually found it amusing (albeit misleading), despite your comment.
Why is it so accepted to call someone an idiot just because they make a mistake? There's such a thing as constructive criticism, and it's possible to comment on something without acting like a jerk while doing it.
If the earlier poster was deliberately provoking it or if you were a regular troll then I could understand it and ignore it, but you've gone out of your way to also correct what was said. Slashdot's great for conversation with tech-minded people and that's what keeps me here, but all that fostering this attitude does is to make potentially interesting slashdot conversation appear even more childish and immature to anyone who reads it.
Yeah I know. This is slashdot. Whatever.
Will it run XLiveCD?
Seriously, ReactOS has been making some amazing progress lately. I don't know why anyone would want to use it (other than geek factor), but it shows that even Microsoft's crown jewels aren't safe from assimilation.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
D00d these aren't *gamers*. THese people are lining up to buy used Xboxes! They're *gasp* GEEKS! Let's get the f**** outta here!!
WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
"Ge van Geldorp has been fiddling with getting ReactOS on the XBox: I think most of the differences between a standard PC and the Xbox can be handled by using a custom HAL for the Xbox, after all, that's what the HAL is for. At the moment, we build 1 HAL, based on the value of MP in config it's either a UniProcessor HAL or a MultiProcessor HAL. Which code is compiled is based on preprocessor statements. I'd like to be able to build 3 HALs in parallel, the UP, MP and Xbox HALs.
Alex Ionescu noted that a new kernel will probably be needed to sucessfully get ReactOS on the XBox. This is because, despite how hard Microsoft tried, the kernel is still architecturally dependant to a degree. Furthermore, between Steven Edwards and Alex, they decided that ReactOS on the XBox would be complicated by the lack of BIOS, proprietary graphics, lack of legacy I/O, proprietary PnP, etc.
Steven eplains a little more about the propietary graphics: [It] is a standard NVidia GeForce Chip minus a VGABios. VBE works fine on it and we have been in discussion with the xbox-linux people about how to trick it in to working with the Nvidia windows binary driver. The Windows driver supports everything from the old Riva cards up through TNT, GeForce[2,3,4}, etc. All we have to do is add a few hacks to videoprt.sys, the HAL and a few other places and it should load according to the research I have done. They have not done this on Linux already because of lack of resources.
GvG hopes that it won't be necessary to put Xbox specific code in the kernel, but I'm not 100% sure about that.
Maritn Misuth brings up an interesting question regarding how ReactOS will behave under the XBox: I've heard that XBOX WinNT kernel implementation has only around 120 kb in mem, allows single process only, (propably windows messaging) is done by polling and has not memory protection, so games can access hardwae directly. Will ReactOS on XBOX mimic this behavior? This was answered with a definitive "No". The XBox port is meant to run ReactOS on the XBox, not to create an XBox OS. It should be noted that the port of ReactOS is not mean to run XBox games (like the XBox WinNT kernel port by Microsoft), but merely to run ReactOS on the hardware."