Slashdot Mirror


Prime Obsession

jkauzlar writes "Popular mathematics books don't come along often and when they do, they're only occasionally worth the read. John Derbyshire, a controversy-stirring political propagandist by day, and mathematician-enthusiast by night, has composed what may turn to out to be one of the classics of mathematical literature for the lay-person." Read on for the rest of jkauzlar's review. Prime Obsession: Bernhard Riemann and the Greatest Unsolved Problem in Mathematics author John Derbyshire pages 422 publisher Plume rating 9/10 reviewer jkauzlar ISBN 0452285259 summary History of the attempt to prove the Riemann Hypothesis

Bernhard Riemann came to the University of Goettingen in 1846 at the age of 19, originally to study theology. The University, however, was home to Carl Friedrich Gauss, "the greatest mathematician of his age and possibly of any age," and the impressionable young Riemann, succumbing to the privilege of Gauss's presence and following his already blossoming interest in mathematics, refocused his studies on the area in which he would soon attain distinct immortality. As early as 1851 he was impressing even Gauss with the results of his doctoral dissertation and in 1859 was appointed a corresponding member of the Berlin Academy. To this honor, Riemann responded with his most famous paper, entitled "On the number of prime numbers less than a given quantity," containing therein what became known as the Riemann Hypothesis.

At the heart of the RH is the Zeta function which, in its basic form, looks like this: Z(s)=1 + 1/2^s + 1/3^s + 1/4^s + ... and which, through some simple algebraic manipulation as demonstrated by the mathematically gifted journalist Derbyshire, can be given in the form (1 - 2^-s)^-1 * (1 - 3^-s)^-1 * (1 - 5^-s)^-1 * (1 - 7^-s)^-1 * ... And it is in this second form which Derbyshire calls "The Golden Key" where the non-mathematician gets the first glimpse of the Zeta function's relationship with prime numbers.

But where this Golden Key appears as this "novel's" turning point--its central conflict-- it is not until Prime Obsession's climax when the Key is at last turned and the Zeta function's true relationship to the prime counting function pi(x)--the number of primes less than a given x--is at last made clear. Along the way, from the introduction of the Zeta function to the final explanation of its relevance to prime numbers (the turning of the Key), Derbyshire enlightens us with clear, mostly English language descriptions of the mathematics involved, as well as plentiful anecdotes that give readers a sense of the life and work of the major figures in the history surrounding the RH from Euler, Gauss and Dedekind in the late 18th century through Riemann's 1859 paper, and from 1859 onward to recent advancements in the '80s and '90s.

The Riemann Hypothesis states that "all nontrivial zeros of the Zeta function have real part one-half." Understanding the statement of the hypothesis is Derbyshire's first mission for the reader. In short, most functions with a dependent variable, say f(x)=x^2-2x+1, have a value for which if you replace x with this value, the function returns zero. In the example given, it is at the value x=1 where f(x)=0. The Zeta function has an infinite number of these zeroes and an infinite number of these is "non-trivial." The non-trivial zeroes come from complex number values. Riemann's guess, his hypothesis, is that the real part of each of these non-trivial zeroes is equal to one-half. The imaginary part can be anything.

Derbyshire explains all of the mathematics in very readable language. It's unlikely that anyone who did well in high school mathematics will not be able to follow Derbyshire's mathematics (and it's unlikely that those who didn't do well will pick up a 400-page book on this topic). The Zeta function is explored from a number of angles--numerically, graphically, algebraically, statistically, and there's even a link between the non-trivial zeroes of the Zeta function and quantum physics! By a larger margin, however, Prime Obsession's intrigue lies in Derbyshire's expositions on Riemann, Hilbert, Turing, Gauss, et al, as well as those modern mathematicians he's interviewed personally. The line between the mathematical half of the book and the historical is clearly defined; the odd-numbered chapters are devoted to the former, the even to the latter.

Those fans and foes of Derbyshire's most public line of work as a journalist/editorial writer for National Review will be comforted to know all political polemics have been set aside. John Derbyshire gives a virtuoso performance as an informed journalist and maintains his stance as a personable and careful guide through a sometimes difficult terrain. Anyone with some interest in the topic will find it hard to put down Derbyshire's book once begun. If we are lucky (hint, hint, JD) perhaps Derbyshire's next book will cover the newly-proven Poincare Conjecture ...

You can purchase Prime Obsession: Bernhard Riemann and the Greatest Unsolved Problem in Mathematics from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, carefully read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

325 comments

  1. This is long overdue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Who isn't obsessed with the leader of the Autobots, Optimus Prime?

    1. Re:This is long overdue by JackBurtonLives · · Score: 2, Funny

      I don't think MegaTron was too obsessed with Optimus Prime. If he was, maybe he would have won a battle or two. After all a gun should stop a truck

    2. Re:This is long overdue by CrazyJim1 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      I wrote a design document for Transformers Online a few days ago. Its a pretty intense MMOG that bases its action off PlanetSide, but has RTS elements, and a long character progression. I don't think Hasbro executives will pick up on it, but its a good read if you're interested in where next generation MMOGs should be heading.

      Transformers Online

    3. Re:This is long overdue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Damn straight! The Transformers rocked

      http://tfarchive.com/

    4. Re:This is long overdue by geoffrobinson · · Score: 1

      Maybe he will have something on matrices for his next book.

      --
      Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
    5. Re:This is long overdue by SlowMovingTarget · · Score: 1

      The problem is he was a hand-gun, and that shouldn't stop a truck...

      I can't believe I just posted that... My Macross fan-club membership might be revoked for discussing one of the other giant robot series.

      (Explodes into ball of geek fire)

  2. No thank you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It may be a fine book, but I see no reason to do anything to help line the pockets of John Derbyshire. If I decide to read it, I'll get it from the library. Vote with your feet.

  3. lay person? by dAzED1 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    ...may turn to out to be one of the classics of mathematical literature for the lay-person

    Ummm...what would its peers be? Just how many "classic" math books does the lay-person have now?

    Could it be that the lay-person wouldn't be interested in any book about math, no matter how well written?

    I dunnnoooo...almost sounds completely probable.

    1. Re:lay person? by Ev0lution · · Score: 1
      Could it be that the lay-person wouldn't be interested in any book about math, no matter how well written?

      In the UK, at least, Simon Singh's book on Fermat's last theorem was very successful, so they can be interested. However, most Maths books, even 'popular' Maths books, are awful for the lay-person.

    2. Re:lay person? by Shimmer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What a sad, sad assumption: That lay-people have no interest in math.

      Martin Gardner's series of Mathematical Games books certainly qualifies as classic.

      I would put some of Douglas Hofstadter's books in there too. Certainly _Godel, Escher, Bach_ is highly (though not entirely) mathematical.

      Richard Smullyan also has a number of very good math/puzzle books.

      There are others, too, but you get the idea. I don't think you need to be professional mathematician to enjoy any of these.

      --
      The most rabid believers in American Exceptionalism are the exact same people whose policies are destroying it.
    3. Re:lay person? by RazorJ_2000 · · Score: 2, Funny

      It should become a classic, alongside with this book: Everyday Math For Dummies http://www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/DummiesTitle/produ ctCd-1568842481.html

      --
      pi=sigma{n:0-infinity}[(1/16)^n][(4/(8n+1))-(2/(8n +4))-(1/ (8n+5))-(1/(8n+6))]
    4. Re:lay person? by Mr.+Flibble · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I consider myself a lay person. I always did poory in mathematics because I did not care about it. The reason I did not care, is that throughout high school no one could show me a use for it. Granted, certain function such as compounded interest held me with a grand fascination - but the rest bored me to no end.

      I am always looking for "laypersons" math books, because after reading Richard Feynmans (non-math) works, I want to understand his Physics Lectures.

      As a helpful AC http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=131989&cid=110 23946 pointed out to me in a post, "Calculus Made Easy" has been helping immensely.

      I fully admit that I don't know calc, and that in this regard I am a layperson. I however, don't wish to remain a layperson forever.

      So who is this book for?

      I would say it is for someone like me.

      --
      Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
    5. Re:lay person? by julesh · · Score: 1

      In the UK, at least, Simon Singh's book on Fermat's last theorem was very successful, so they can be interested.

      Not to mention, of course, his Code Book (assuming you consider cryptography as a branch of mathematics, which I think most people do).

    6. Re:lay person? by SMQ · · Score: 1

      Ummm...what would its peers be?

      Martin Gardner's math puzzle/game books? or mabye Godel, Escher, Bach for the more philosophicaly inclined? Not all non-mathematicians are turned off by math...

      --
      SMQ 90AE4B2BC4F6BEAF7340F0B40BA2DEF7340F6BC2D0392
    7. Re:lay person? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why is the parent insightful when half a dozen people have instantly given examples of maths books that were generally popular?

    8. Re:lay person? by Pacifix · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think you're being cruel. Lots of laypersons have intellectual curiosity that may not have been fed either because they were too poor to go on to higher education, there were family problems, whatever. Not everyone who ends up without an education is dumb and uninterested. Lots of people are interested in space travel, chemistry, astronomy - why not math? I have a lady at work who is always asking me questions about some math thing or another she heard about and I've been looking for a good book like this to give her. Although I think I'll start with "The Myster of the Aleph" on Kantor and Infinity - that was a rocking read!

    9. Re:lay person? by dAzED1 · · Score: 1
      I wasn't stating that as the assumption - I was stating that they wouldn't be interested in reading a /book/ about it enough for it to be "classic," no matter how well it was written.

      "Moby Dick" is a classic. "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" (sp?) is a classic.

      The *lay person* won't find a *math book* worthy of being a "classic" anything. It will be, at best, something they read when they're feeling like dorks.

      That being said, don't project your own interests onto the masses. The lay person simply isn't interested in math, really. My wife is extrodinarily intelligent, is a scientist, and knows enough calculus/statistics to do what she needs with it. She has no interest in math - and she's a smart one! The lay person, on the other hand, is definately not going to be interested.

    10. Re:lay person? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      because a "half a dozen people" didn't give examples.

    11. Re:lay person? by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      The lay person has only as much use for high level theoretical mathematics as high level theoretical mathematics is able to accurately model reality. In other words, not very much.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    12. Re:lay person? by Philosinfinity · · Score: 1

      Classic
      Foundations of Arithmetic - Gottlieb Frege
      Contributions to the Founding of the Theory of Transfinite Numbers - Georg Cantor
      Complete works of Spinoza - Spinoza

    13. Re:lay person? by sfjoe · · Score: 1

      The reason I did not care, is that throughout high school no one could show me a use for it.

      Hey buddy - got six quarters for a dollar?
      Consider yourself "shown".

      --
      It's simple: I demand prosecution for torture.
    14. Re:lay person? by Shimmer · · Score: 1

      The lay person, on the other hand, is definately not going to be interested.

      There's that assumption again. Your wife may not be interested in math, but fortunately there are other lay people who are. (And, frankly, anyone who is competent in calculus can't really be considered uninterested in math.)

      This is an important issue because the future of our society depends on our ability to produce citizens who have the intellectual ability/curiosity to understand how the society actually works. Math is a big part of that understanding.

      If we continue to marginalize "dorks" who read math books, then we're going to be in big trouble down the road.

      --
      The most rabid believers in American Exceptionalism are the exact same people whose policies are destroying it.
    15. Re:lay person? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It is sometimes said that, next to the Bible, the "Elements" may be the most translated, published, and studied of all the books produced in the Western world" -- Bartel Leendert van der Waerden. That sounds like a classic to me. Please don't project your justifications for your wife's ignorance on to the masses, they have enough idiotic propaganda to contend with as it is.

    16. Re:lay person? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, when you're flying on an airline that has coin locks on the toilets, you might very well find yourself in the situation of...

      "anyone got 4 quarters for a dollar?"

      "Cmon, please! 1 quarter for a dollar!?"

    17. Re:lay person? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      History has proven you wrong.

    18. Re:lay person? by thomas.galvin · · Score: 2, Funny

      If we continue to marginalize "dorks" who read math books, then we're going to be in big trouble down the road.

      I for one welcome our new, math-knowing, Finnish overloards!

      And our math-knowing Korean overloards.

      And our math-knowing... eh, forget it. At least we beat Portugal.

    19. Re:lay person? by dillon_rinker · · Score: 1

      throughout high school no one could show me a use for it

      Everything you learned in high-school math was known before the Renaissance.

      EVERYTHING.

      Arithmetic predates civilization. High-school algebra is arguably prehistorical: the solution to the quadratic equation was known to EVERY ancient civilization that left behind written records. Plane geometry was formalized by the Greeks about 2400 years ago. The symbols for the trigonometric functions date back to the 1200s. Given thousands of years of history, you'd think your teachers could have come up with at least one example of the utility of what they were teaching you.

    20. Re:lay person? by Dirtside · · Score: 1
      I always did poory in mathematics
      Typing, too, apparently. ;)
      --
      "Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
    21. Re:lay person? by Culture · · Score: 1

      Um, yeah. Mr. Tortise says that the average lay person could not understand the first five pages of Godel, Escher, Bach if their life depended on it.

      --
      ----- There are two kinds of people in this world, my friend; those with loaded guns, and those who dig.
    22. Re:lay person? by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      History has proven you wrong.

      Can you show me something that CAN be accurately modeled- to any degree of precision- with mathematics? I can't think of one. Estimated, sure. Close enough to achieve some great things, sure. But to any degree of precision? Not even close. And to most of the nuanced, grey scale problems in the average layman's life, hardly at all. Most lay people never need calculus- compound interest is the most complex calculus problem they ever use, and it's equally solvable by iteration. Your average person never has to deal with infinities on either side of the scale- infinitely small or infinitely large. Prime numbers are largely just a neat mental challenge- there's nothing in real life that you can model with primes. Heck, even integers are largely useless- nothing ever has a property that is exactly an integer unless it is in cyberspace. So, what form of higher mathematics do you think you know that can model the universe accurately enough for COMMON usage?

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    23. Re:lay person? by Bush+Pig · · Score: 1

      I learnt a _lot_ of maths at high school which is post-renaissance - complex numbers, differential and integral calculus, the uses of logarithms, the Binomial Theorem, cartesian coordinate geometry, ... Oh, and we were shown the utility of some of this stuff, at least.

      Of course, this was about 40 years ago, and in Australia. I don't know what they teach young people at school these days (although judging from what my kids were taught, it isn't much).

      --
      What a long, strange trip it's been.
    24. Re:lay person? by Shimmer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I just checked and the first five pages of GEB are about Bach. Nothing complex.

      One of the great things about GEB is that it completely obliterates the standard humanities vs. sciences distinction.

      I find the anti-science attitude particularly irritating because I've heard it a lot from otherwise intelligent "Liberal Arts" people.

      Tell me, do you think the average lay person could understand the first five pages of _Moby Dick_, or a Shakespeare play, or an Emily Dickinson poem? I think not -- yet I don't hear anyone dissuading them from trying.

      What's the practical benefit of, say, reading Jane Austen in high school? None. Yet the main complaint you hear is that "I don't want to learn algebra because I'll never use it in my real life".

      Why are "average" people discourgaged from learning about science and math?

      --
      The most rabid believers in American Exceptionalism are the exact same people whose policies are destroying it.
    25. Re:lay person? by |/|/||| · · Score: 2, Funny

      Mr. Tortise says that the average lay person could not understand the first five pages of Godel, Escher, Bach if their life depended on it.

      Achilles says, 'I think you mean "couldn't be bothered to" rather than "could not." In my experience most people are guilty of lack or interest rather than actual stupidity.'

      --
      [javac] 100 errors
    26. Re:lay person? by Culture · · Score: 1

      I guess my point is this. Of all the books you listed, GEB is the only one that there is no possible way (IMHO) that the average person has a chance of comprehending. It is not an entry level text to math and logic. Jane Austen or Moby Dick can be read as a (good) story, as can any other novel, ignoring the deepr subtext. This is not going to happen with GEB. If you had the average american start reading GEB, a short distance into the novel they are going to decide you are crazy for suggesting it. Why not try a much more approachable book about science, say Darwin's Voyage of the Beagle, and don't tell them they are going to learn about science? GEB is not approachable (to the average person). Plus, american's need all the help they can get with evolution. I am much less concerned about their knowledge of math. As long as they can push the right button on the cash register at McDonald' s I am ok.

      --
      ----- There are two kinds of people in this world, my friend; those with loaded guns, and those who dig.
    27. Re:lay person? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The future of our society depends on our ability to produce citizens who have the intellectual ability/curiosity to understand how the society actually works.

      We're screwed.

    28. Re:lay person? by nwbvt · · Score: 1
      A Beutiful Mind was fairly popular, both as a book and as a movie. Not all of the people who read or saw it were mathematicians.

      Besides, he said "for the lay-person", not "read by the lay-person". I can write a book for geeks, that doesn't mean any geek would have to read it.

      --
      Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
    29. Re:lay person? by crgrace · · Score: 1

      you went to an excellent high school... you must not be american.

      I had to go to the local college to learn calculus, because they didn't even offer it in my high school!

    30. Re:lay person? by brandonfpu · · Score: 1

      Flatland, and the latest "Flatterland" is a great read. I'm almost done (just abstract algebra to go!) with a math major, and it's been a wonderful journey, cumlinating in my eyes with Number theory(exploration of Primes a LOT - Mersenne, etc.) and real analysis (all proofs, all the time!) last semester. I'm giving myself a mini-calculus course this christmas break just, sadly enough i guess, for fun! It's been a while since I had to use Chain rule and all that stuff...

    31. Re:lay person? by Funkeriffic+Toad · · Score: 1

      An irrefutably classic book on mathematics is Courant and Robbins' amazing "What is Mathematics?" (Later edited and revised by Ian Stewart). This is a fantastic book that was nevertheless written very much with the lay-person in mind. (I believe the introduction - by Courant's son? - discusses how one of the authors required his sons' brides-to-be to get through the book at least once.)

      It's one of those books that you never really finish. I received it years ago for my Bar Mitzvah and I've probably read through the text several times. But I invariably return later to those sections that bored or confused me, only to find them fascinating and illuminating. I would highly recommend it to anyone with even a passing fondness for numbers.

    32. Re:lay person? by valdean · · Score: 1
      What a sad, sad assumption: That lay-people have no interest in math.

      layperson (lay'pûr'sen) n. A man or woman not interested in math.

    33. Re:lay person? by fermion · · Score: 2, Insightful
      The average person owns few, if any, books. In the US one can often expect the home to have a bible, and perhaps a couple other books, but most people have read very little. They read what they were forced to read in school, the sports section, and perhaps a few magazines written at the 5th grade level. And lest people get pissed about me dissing the sport section, let me state here that we owe a lot to sport section, as it is often written at above a 5th grade level and is likely responsible for the minimum level of literacy of the common man.

      Now, most educated people will point to the number of books they have read and own. They will expect others to stand in awe at their collection of books and the factoids they can pull up from their vast reading. They are intelligent because intelligent people read books. And there may be some truth in this. There is certainly a relationship between the number of books a child has read and some measures of intelligence.

      But then we start discussing certain types of book and the intelligentsia consesus on books starts to fall apart. Oh, I would never read those kind of books. Those books are only for the fanatic, or only for those who read books for the vilest of pleasure. Or those books contain nothing but dry facts, and are not suitable for those us who read to learn about truth and beauty. At some point, it seems, people who fancy themselves intelligent have to defend thier chosen status by denigrating the activities in which they do not wish to take part. After all, intelligent people treasure a wide variety of experiences, and know they should take part in any experience that will make us more intelligent. Therefore, if we choose not to take part in an experience, it must be because that experience has no intellectual basis. To wit, math books are of no interest to the average person, and therefore the fact that I could never even begin to comprehend one has nothing to do with my status as a smart person.

      And so it is that the act of getting children to read is doomed to failure because everyone is more concerned about making sure their preferred reading material is considered the best and only path to intellectual bliss, while all others are deemed as junk or porn or pulp.

      Or, to put more bluntly, if I hear one more person tell my kids that math is hard and no one really understands it, I will likely go on a mad rage.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    34. Re:lay person? by Mr.+Flibble · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Hey buddy - got six quarters for a dollar?
      Consider yourself "shown".


      I am not speaking of general math - rather I am speaking of the esoteric stuff such as "new math" stuff that has no "purpose" other than to be a neat trick.

      I was deeply impressed by Richard Feynmans chapter on his reviewing high school math books. He was livid that a number of things being taught were useless. He wanted the books to teach the students not only what they were learning, but why. One example has him in an uproar because there was a question about taking the average tempurature of a number of stars. This made Feynman angry because there is no reason to get an average star tempurature for a number of stars, it is just not something that you do. Feynman called it "a trick to get the students to add".

      Furthermore, he was furious at a physics problem in one book, that had wrong answers, and in fact, Feynman actually performed the experiment listed in the book, and found out the "observed" results were wrong. The author did not even take the time to DO the experiment listed.

      Again, this made him furious because he felt that teaching students math in a deceptive manner would never give them a feeling as to where the math can take you in fields in the sciences. I agree.

      So, I don't want to learn fluff. I was at a disadvantage because I was just told "learn this" and in answer to the question of "why?" I was only given "so you can pass the exams."

      In high school I deeply wanted the answers to some questions in Physics, that were available with mathematics, but I was not shown these, and I developed an unfortunate disgust with mathematics because of this.

      So many people here on slashdot can take me to task for being bad at math - and I know I am. I don't know if you would have been so interested in it either if it was drilled into you in a dull manner, and a feeling that it lacked a purpose.

      Am I learning math now? Yes, but then I understand much more about the why, the how, and the history now than I did then. I don't know about the rest of you but I detest rote learning. So take me to task on my math skills if you wish (or my typing :) ) but I can see enough in myself that I want to change, and I am making the effort. Not all people can say the same of themselves.

      --
      Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
    35. Re:lay person? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Can you show me something that CAN be accurately modeled- to any degree of precision- with mathematics?
      "[M]athematics is able to accurately model reality" "[c]lose enough to achieve some great things." Since these are your words, I don't think you really need me to provide you with examples.
    36. Re:lay person? by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      The key word here is "ANY" degree of precision- close enough to achieve some great things is NOT equal to any degree of precision. Achieving great things is also not equal to achieving common things that can be achieved in other ways. Mathematics is not the end-all way to model the universe, yet. It's close. It's as close as the number of bytes of precision you want to do it in. But it will NEVER model the universe completely- and it's unreasonable to expect lay people to be interested in a method that doesn't model their particular part of the universe. Thus leading back to my original comment- that lay people are only interested in the amount of mathematics that can model THEIR particular slice of the universe, and due to holes in how we understand numbers themselves, that amount is not very complete.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    37. Re:lay person? by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      (And, frankly, anyone who is competent in calculus can't really be considered uninterested in math.)

      It's possible, for a good student to be competant in something that they're not interested in- simply because they ARE interested in something else that depends on that topic.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    38. Re:lay person? by Physics+Dude · · Score: 1
      I enjoy math and majored in mathematics but agree that most of the teachers I've had didn't know the power or use of what they were teaching. I had an education-major roomate ask his college math teacher for an application or example real-world use of the math they were learning and to my surprise and sadness the teacher said "Well, suppose someone comes up to you on the street and asks 'what are the roots of this polynomial?' "

      Physics is what made it all work for me. If you get a decent physics teacher, there's direct and extremely usefull and straight forward applications for everything up through trig, calculus and differential equations even at a high school physics level.

      For general application of math, I would highly recommend "The Heart of Mathematics: An Invitation to Effective Thinking" by Edward B. Burger. I had a friend (music major) who had it for a class and she really got a lot out of it. She asked me about some of the more advanced topics and I was amazed by the breadth of the book. I actually went out and bought both the first and second additions just to have on hand as a reference I could point people to. I've seriously considered giving this one as a gift to my nieces and nephews when they get old enough. (A math text as a Christmas present!??!!) ;)

    39. Re:lay person? by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      Tell me, do you think the average lay person could understand the first five pages of _Moby Dick_, or a Shakespeare play, or an Emily Dickinson poem? I think not -- yet I don't hear anyone dissuading them from trying.

      You obviousely didn't go to MY high school- where only the smart kids trying to get college credit ahead of schedule read anything by Herman Melville or Emily Dickinson, and the only required play for Shakespeare was Romeo and Juliet- and for that they showed the movie instead of having kids read the play.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    40. Re:lay person? by Physics+Dude · · Score: 1

      Just FYI, here is a reference to the latest edition of "The Heart of Mathematics". You can get the earlier addition new or used through Amazon.

    41. Re:lay person? by raxxerax · · Score: 1

      I learned all these things and more in high school. My high school was anything but an excellent school, and I am an American.

    42. Re:lay person? by Physics+Dude · · Score: 1
      you went to an excellent high school... you must not be american.

      Sorry to disagree with your generalization, but I live in the United States and had all of the above mathematics and more in high school. While I admit that not all of the teachers were up to par, I believe the opportunity is available at most high schools. :) We also were expected to use a lot of the above in real-world applications in high school physics, etc.

    43. Re:lay person? by Shimmer · · Score: 1

      I would define interest transitively. Thus, if I am interested in A, which depends on B, I think it's reasonable to say that I'm interested in (at least) the subset of B that is relevant to A.

      Without such interest, no one could ever learn a complex topic like calculus.

      Note that A can be something very practical (like graduating from high school) at the same time that B is very abstract (like calculus).

      --
      The most rabid believers in American Exceptionalism are the exact same people whose policies are destroying it.
    44. Re:lay person? by Shimmer · · Score: 1
      Mathematics is the language of nature itself, so I tend to disagree. For more information, I would refer you the following essay on The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences. It begins like this:

      THERE IS A story about two friends, who were classmates in high school, talking about their jobs. One of them became a statistician and was working on population trends. He showed a reprint to his former classmate. The reprint started, as usual, with the Gaussian distribution and the statistician explained to his former classmate the meaning of the symbols for the actual population, for the average population, and so on. His classmate was a bit incredulous and was not quite sure whether the statistician was pulling his leg. "How can you know that?" was his query. "And what is this symbol here?" "Oh," said the statistician, "this is pi." "What is that?" "The ratio of the circumference of the circle to its diameter." "Well, now you are pushing your joke too far," said the classmate, "surely the population has nothing to do with the circumference of the circle."
      --
      The most rabid believers in American Exceptionalism are the exact same people whose policies are destroying it.
    45. Re:lay person? by Shimmer · · Score: 1

      Why not try a much more approachable book about science, say Darwin's Voyage of the Beagle, and don't tell them they are going to learn about science?

      I agree that some scientific topics will be more approachable than pure math. I limited myself to math books because that was the topic of the original post.

      GEB is not approachable (to the average person).

      True, but I did not find _Moby Dick_ or Shakespeare very approachable either. That didn't stop my high school English teachers from assigning them.

      As long as they can push the right button on the cash register at McDonald' s I am ok.

      I hope you're joking, because that's a very shortsighted view. If we head down that path, our society will split into a small group of elites with control over a large group of servants. The middle class will disappear and civil war will inevitably follow. You can see the beginnings of this trend now, but I hope we can turn it around before the vicious circle becomes unbreakable.

      BTW, I think this is why Edwards' "Two Americas" rhetoric was so effective during the recent presidential campaign.

      --
      The most rabid believers in American Exceptionalism are the exact same people whose policies are destroying it.
    46. Re:lay person? by griffm · · Score: 1

      I would agree. Especially when so many people end up in a profession that pays the bills when they would rather be doing something else (whether they were able to do it or chose not to for other reasons). I thought the Derbyshire book was excellent, well written and went well beyond the typical mathematical biography/history and really delved into the mathematics.

      I started reading books on mathematics or mathematicians after listening to an Audible version of A Beautiful Mind. Other books of the same genre I have enjoyed since then include Men of Mathematics by E.T. Bell, The Man Who Knew Infinity: A Life of the Genius Ramanujan by Robert Kanigel and The Mystery of the Aleph : Mathematics, the Kabbalah, and the Search for Infinity by Amir D. Aczel. Nevertheless, none of these books go as deeply into the actual mathematics as the Derbyshire book. Another great thing about the Prime Obsession is that it references enough other texts to keep my future reading list full.

    47. Re:lay person? by Superfluid+Blob · · Score: 1

      Yakov Perelman's very sadly out of print "Mathematics Can Be Fun". Practically an entire generation of geeks in India grew up on that one.

    48. Re:lay person? by andreyw · · Score: 1

      Heh funny stuff. I attended the Illinois Mathematics and Science Academy, so I can't really complain about not getting a decent education... but the grades 7 through 9 had been the dullest I've ever had. Interestingly, most of my vivid memories and "neat useful things" that I learned belong in 6th grade, which I attended in Scuola Media di Constantino Nivola, Frutti D'Oro, CA, 09012, Italia 1) Grasp of basic french. I can't speak it anymore, but I will understand some of it. 2) Graphing - and I mean with paper, pencil, compass and ruler. Something I've (unfortunately) never had the chance to learn anywhere else. 3) Where I learned my Algebra. Of course, the following year I was dumped into an ESL program (where I ended up *teaching* English *sigh*, dumbfucks) and into a "Math for Tards" course which I couldn't get out of... because "I was the foreign weird student." Whatever. Whats the problem with the American public education system? Ignorance and apathy. Funny that being a Russian 11 year-old (barely coherent in Italian) did not stop me from attending NORMAL classes, having full respect of my peers and professors, and going from failing to excelling grades. There were no road blocks. There was no second-class status. However when I got to the USA with an already-excellent (although more British) grasp of English, I was treated as a second-class student. I was shoved into an ESL program, even though I protested that decision and clearly did not belong. I was ignored. It took me a superhuman effort to finally break through and get into an Honors section for my 8th grade, but even then my Core (SocSci, English) teacher was horribly biased against me and treated me like shit. Funny how I didn't have to suffer through this, while being in a much worse academical position, in Italy? What a fine example of the American public education system. 7th and 8th grades were the biggest waste of my time ever. In fact, I learned absolutely nothing new, with the exception of *my own* forrays into electronics, system administration and computer programming. Thanks for killing two years of my life and making my life miserable. Its a good thing I found out about IMSA.

    49. Re:lay person? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The key word here is "ANY"
      I am glad that you noticed this. Dictionary.com defines "any" as "[o]ne, some, every, or all without specification." Consider the following statements and assume x = 5:
      1. x is equal to any integer
      2. x is equal to one integer
      3. x is equal to some integer
      4. x is equal to every integer
      Statement 1 is equivalent to statements 2, 3, and 4. Satements 2 and 3 are true. Statement 4 is false. Thus, statement 1 is ambiguous.

      With this in mind, you should be able to recognize your original question
      Can you show me something that CAN be accurately modeled- to any degree of precision- with mathematics?
      as ambiguous. My response assumed that you had intended for any to mean some, whereas you had assumed that any meant every.

      Part of learning mathematics is learning to communicate your thoughts in an unambiguous manner. This is an important and useful lesson even for lay persons such as yourself.
    50. Re:lay person? by Bush+Pig · · Score: 1

      This is something that always surprises me, each time I hear or read that (some) people in the USA don't do calculus until university. Admittedly, we were only taught how to differentiate and integrate polynomials, but we _were_ taught the concept of a limit, so it was a reasonable grounding.

      However, it was interesting when I returned to university about 10 years ago (having failed big-time in the late 60s, for the obvious reasons) - I approached the woman who was teaching differential equations, as I didn't really feel confident that my only-just-pass in Pure Maths II in 1969 had really prepared me for her subject, and she said (roughly) that because I'd studied the stuff about 25 years ago, I probably had a much better understanding of the subject than most of the rest of her students (even though I'd been bone-idle and had hardly absorbed a thing). I suspect that students today don't get as good a grounding as us old fuckers did, which is very sad.

      --
      What a long, strange trip it's been.
    51. Re:lay person? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I enjoy math and majored in mathematics but agree that most of the teachers I've had didn't know the power or use of what they were teaching. I had an education-major roomate ask his college math teacher for an application or example real-world use of the math they were learning and to my surprise and sadness the teacher said "Well, suppose someone comes up to you on the street and asks 'what are the roots of this polynomial?' "

      Is the physics answer any better? Suppose you are firing a cannon off of a cliff...

    52. Re:lay person? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Courant's calculus book _Differential and Integral Calculus_ is a classic. It is one of the best calculus books ever written.

    53. Re:lay person? by Culture · · Score: 1

      I think that both lack of interest, lack of education and lack of intelligence are large factors.

      --
      ----- There are two kinds of people in this world, my friend; those with loaded guns, and those who dig.
    54. Re:lay person? by Culture · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I was joking. I agree with your last paragraph.

      --
      ----- There are two kinds of people in this world, my friend; those with loaded guns, and those who dig.
    55. Re:lay person? by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      Part of learning mathematics is learning to communicate your thoughts in an unambiguous manner. This is an important and useful lesson even for lay persons such as yourself.

      The ambiguousness is on purpose- the world is not unambiguous and neither is humanity- thus learning to communicate your thoughts in an unambiguous manner is neither important nor usefull in all situations, and can sometimes be uttlerly non-usefull.

      A mathematician is like a guy with a hammer to whom every problem looks like a nail- some problems are non-mathematical to begin with.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    56. Re:lay person? by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      Just because mathematics and science shows us some surprising correlations, does NOT mean that every problem can be solved with mathematics or every theory can come from science. This essay only proves the point behind WHY lay people can be utterly uninterested in Mathematics and still be completely functioning human beings.

      Recently in my journal entry on Atheism and Iltheism I pointed this out- that it is equally plausible, from all we now know about energy and brain chemistry, that a soul exists as that no soul exists; simply because we have been unable to accurately and repeatedly measure energy in vs energy out of the human body at death. Thus, whether the brain is the cause of thought or merely an interpreter of thought that originates with a non-corporeal soul, is utterly unproven and perhaps unproveable.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    57. Re:lay person? by Physics+Dude · · Score: 1
      Can't believe I'm answering an AC... ;)

      Hint: The point was real-world application of the math.

      So, yes, the physics answer is obviously better in this context because my roomate was asking for a real-world use of the math. If you think that the answer the teacher gave is a real-world application of the use or application of polynomials then you seriously need a course in critical thinking.

    58. Re:lay person? by crgrace · · Score: 1

      Interesting story, andreyw. I would say that 7th through 12th grade were the biggest waste of MY time ever. I too only learned about things on my own, through compulsive reading (anything I could get my hands on) and some computer programming. I'm very lucky I was able to survive in College, because I had no study skills to speak of (even with my above 4.0 grade average). It's funny, but I learned the most from my Cross Country and Track teams. Namely, hard work and self-respect. Not things you learn in an American public high school. At least in California.

    59. Re:lay person? by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      I would define interest transitively. Thus, if I am interested in A, which depends on B, I think it's reasonable to say that I'm interested in (at least) the subset of B that is relevant to A.

      But chances are, you're only interested in that subset- and will stop learning there.

      Without such interest, no one could ever learn a complex topic like calculus.

      Not entirely true- some people DO have an interest in mathematics for the sake of the mathematical puzzle- and for them, calculus is a shortcut to the type of iteration it would otherwise take a computer to approximate.

      Note that A can be something very practical (like graduating from high school) at the same time that B is very abstract (like calculus).

      This, though, is completely true.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    60. Re:lay person? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The ambiguousness is on purpose
      Yeah, I'm sure you meant to do it, but many people do it unknowingly and would prefer not to.
      A mathematician is like a guy with a hammer to whom every problem looks like a nail- some problems are non-mathematical to begin with.
      How do people tell which problems are mathematical and which problems are non-mathematical? Why is that you want to take hammers out of the hands of lay people? If you can't use a hammer to take the lugnuts off of your car to change a tire, do you then declare the hammer useless?
    61. Re:lay person? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can't believe I'm responding to a physics dude, let alone one who attempted to impugn my critical thinking skills...;)

      You seem to have missed my point. Here's a reenactment to help illustrate it:

      Student: What's a real world application of this?

      Me: Well, you can use it to calculate where a cannonball fired off of a cliff is going to land.

      Student: Why the hell would I ever need to know that?

      Me: I don't know, some physics dude told me that this is a real world application of math.

      Student: If you think that's a real-world application then you seriously need a course in critical thinking.

      Me: Yeah, tell me about it.

    62. Re:lay person? by Physics+Dude · · Score: 1
      My roomate had asked for an application of the math they were doing.

      While I totally agree with you that firing a cannon off a cliff may be an uncommon (or even useless to some) application of polynomials, it never the less IS an application of the math.

      In contrast, the answer his teacher gave of solving a math problem because someone asked you to solve that math problem may be a real-world problem, but it IS NOT an application of the math.

      I believe you failed to see this distinction. So to your question "Is the physics answer any better?" I said YES, because the answer the teacher gave is not even an application of the math.

      An application of math is not limited to things that are common or even real events.

      To "Apply" something is to put it into practice or a particular use. It's using the math to represent (be applied to) something else and solve a problem OTHER THAN THE MATH PROBLEM ITSELF. To do the math for the math's sake is not an application of the math.

      That's all I was trying to say. :)

    63. Re:lay person? by JaxWeb · · Score: 1

      Or, to put more bluntly, if I hear one more person tell my kids that math is hard and no one really understands it, I will likely go on a mad rage.

      I'm interested - have people said this to them, then? Who? Why?

      --
      - Jax
    64. Re:lay person? by JaxWeb · · Score: 1

      Complex Numbers were developed at the time of the renaissance.

      Differntial and Integral Calculus was 1600's, so post-renaissance, but some existed before that at any rate.

      Logarithms were invented near the end of the renaissance, but the work was not published until the 1600's, also.

      The Binomial Theorem is very, very old!

      The Cartesian coordinate system is from the 1600's.

      So although there are bits from Post-Renaissance (taking that as anything from the 17th centry onwards), there isn't really anything from after the 1600's, is there?

      --
      - Jax
    65. Re:lay person? by JaxWeb · · Score: 1

      Just want to say Good Luck :) That was an inspiring post.

      Personally, I quite like abstract maths myself. I'm perfectly happy (happier, in-fact) with Maths which doesn't do anything useful - but of all the people I know, only one other person doesn't mind maths without a purpose.

      Read this -- it is truely amazing.

      --
      - Jax
    66. Re:lay person? by Bush+Pig · · Score: 1

      The Binomial Theorem itself may be quite old, but I think its application to combinatorial mathematics, probability, etc comes from the 17th and 18th centuries. The same can be said for most of the mathematics of complex numbers (de Moivre's Theorem, Argand diagrams, etc).

      So sure, there's not a great deal which has post-Renaissance underpinnings, but you could say that about most of mathematics. However, most mathematics from the 19th and 20th centuries is a bit advanced for high school students (or even most university students), wouldn't you agree?

      --
      What a long, strange trip it's been.
    67. Re:lay person? by JaxWeb · · Score: 1

      Points taken and accepted :)

      "is a bit advanced for high school students"

      Yes, I agree. This has the side effect we don't get to learn it, though.

      In the UK, the A-Level Maths coursework by MEI does actually have a module, called Further Pure 3, which does have some more "modern" things in. However, it is too hard and my school, for one, doesn't really want to make people do it (since it will bring down our overall grades). You can see it, in DOC format, here.

      For a student to take this module, they must use two of their 3 or 4 A-Level choices on Mathematics .

      Another popular board, AQA, have nothing like this in A-Level Further Maths, though.

      Anyway, thought that might be of some interest to you!

      (I haven't spellchecked, since I think you'll be the only one to read this!)

      --
      - Jax
    68. Re:lay person? by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      How do people tell which problems are mathematical and which problems are non-mathematical?

      An easy way is to take a concept from mathematics itself. The definition of a function. For any n-dimentional function, there should be n-1 solutions for any given input. Non-mathematical problems have MULTIPLE right answers- they are ambiguous not only in the original question, but also in the solution.

      Why is that you want to take hammers out of the hands of lay people?

      That's reading an intent into my words that is beyond what I am saying. Even as ambiguous as I've been, the closest you can come to this is that I've said that lay people have some interests that are outside of mathematics- and due to free will and individual choice, no one form of any logic system will ever do for all mankind in all instances.

      If you can't use a hammer to take the lugnuts off of your car to change a tire, do you then declare the hammer useless?

      In that situation- yes! But implicit in that declaration is that there are some problems the hammer is usefull for- but they are far more rare than first thought. Same with mathematics- the problems that fit the definition of a function are far more uncommon than first thought. Thus the inability of mathematics to actually model reality to any and all degrees of precision- because reality is far more complex than mathematics; switching to infinities and imaginary numbers only serves to make the model less like reality and more like something the human brain can figure out.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
  4. Douglas Adams by MalaclypseTheYounger · · Score: 5, Funny

    Superior mathematician.

    The answer? 42.

    The question? What is 6 times 9.

    The part he didn't tell you is that the question/answer machine was devised by a group of aliens that had 13 fingers. They wouldn't count in base 10, they would count in base 13, naturally.

    6 x 9 does in fact equal 42. In base 13.

    --
    Check out the best P2P sharing website: MEDIACHEST.COM
    1. Re:Douglas Adams by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Great, now we have to destroy the universe and rebuild it in a more complex form.


      I bet you didn't think about all the work involved before you opened your big mouth, did you.

    2. Re:Douglas Adams by nebaz · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually the question is
      "What do you get when you multiply six by nine?"

      People have argued that since Arthur Dent got this by picking letters out of his homemade scrabble set at random, that this is impossbile, as there are not 4 Y's in a standard Scrabble set.

      --
      Rhymes that keep their secrets will unfold behind the clouds.There upon the rainbow is the answer to a neverending story
    3. Re:Douglas Adams by Beardo+the+Bearded · · Score: 1

      But that's it.

      That's all there is.

      --

      ---
      ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
    4. Re:Douglas Adams by JCOTTON · · Score: 1
      and OCT 31 = DEC 25

      that is
      Octal 31 = Decimal 25

      Happy Holidays!

    5. Re:Douglas Adams by Naikrovek · · Score: 1

      i doubt anyone that makes a homemade scrabble set would keep the set number of 'Y' tiles as prescribed by the official version. ... parent could be a HHGTTG joke that i'm not getting though. on slashdot its impossible to tell when someone is being serious and when they're quoting some obscure literature (or the not-so-obscure HHGTTG).

    6. Re:Douglas Adams by BaldGhoti · · Score: 5, Informative

      Douglas Adams went on record saying that that was a pure coincidence. "I may be a pretty sad person, but I don't make jokes in base 13."

      Sorry to burst the bubble.

      --
      [insert witty sig here]
    7. Re:Douglas Adams by Kredal · · Score: 1

      Who said his homemade scrabble set was regulation?

      And the question not exactly matching the answer only goes to prove that there's something fundamentally wrong with the universe.

      --
      Whoever stated that signature sizes should be limited to one hundred and twenty characters can just go ahead and kiss my
    8. Re:Douglas Adams by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      No, we won't have to destroy and rebuild the Universe. "What do you get when you multiply six by nine" is a question, not the question because you can't have both the question and the answer in the same universe. Now that we know the answer, it's impossible to know for sure what the question is.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    9. Re:Douglas Adams by cheeseSource · · Score: 1

      I think the actual question turned out to be "What is your favorite blend of Earl Grey?" His just happend to be 42...

      --
      (Sponsored by cheeseSource for President 2012)
    10. Re:Douglas Adams by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is this thing universe you speak about?

    11. Re:Douglas Adams by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's obvious that there is something fundamentally wrong with the universe if they only include 4 Y's in a standard scrabble set...

    12. Re:Douglas Adams by lambadomy · · Score: 1

      Easy answer: blank tiles

    13. Re:Douglas Adams by StalinsNotDead · · Score: 1

      Read this. It's a writer's explanation for the need for a sarcasm point as a new form of punctuation.

      I'd show it to you, but Slashdot doesn't seem to want to allow it to be displayed. Glad I previewed the original sarcastic comment about the strict adherence to spelling, grammar and punctuation conventions here on Slashdot.

      --
      Thanks to the internet, we can now all die alone together! -SomeWoman
    14. Re:Douglas Adams by FiloEleven · · Score: 1

      It's stated in the books that one can never know both the question and the answer. Having said that, here are two paraphrases (don't have the book handy) from the text:

      Excerpt 1:
      Marvin: I'm roughly 30 billion times smarter than you. Let me give you an example. Pick a number. Any number.
      ??(can't recall name)??: Um...seven?
      Marvin: Wrong. You see?

      Excerpt 2:
      Arthur: I'm still sort of bummed we never figured out that Ultimate Question thing.
      Eddie, Ship's Computer: Pick a number. Any number.

      It's arguable that neither of the entities who knew the proposed question violate the question/answer mutual exclusivity because they are machines. However, since Adams was an atheist, he would probably conclude that we are essentially also machines, so this might not fly.

      Food for thought, though.

    15. Re:Douglas Adams by Macgrrl · · Score: 1

      Given that Arthur's brain was part of the matrix (Earth), and he made the scrabble tiles himself, is it possible that he was subconciously programmed as to which tiles would be required...

      --
      Sara
      Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
    16. Re:Douglas Adams by Twisted64 · · Score: 1

      The question in Arthur Dent's mind was a warped version of the correct question. The program didn't have time to complete. Ford mentioned this just before they used the scrabble pieces. I have an idea what the question is, but as I know the answer, I can't claim knowledge :)

      --
      Consciousness is a myth. Trust me.
    17. Re:Douglas Adams by dasunt · · Score: 1

      The answer? 42.

      The question? What is 6 times 9.

      I always figured that, due to the telephone cleaners et al taking over earth, the resulting answer was flawed.

      The real answer would be on the order of "What is seven times six?"

  5. Offtopic...rant... by nebaz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why is it, that if you have studied math that people get you these books for Christmas, etc. People say, "Wow, he's into math, I'm sure he'd like that", when books like this are written for the lay person, as a fun introduction to the subject. People don't get Literature majors "Shakespeare for Dummies".

    --
    Rhymes that keep their secrets will unfold behind the clouds.There upon the rainbow is the answer to a neverending story
    1. Re:Offtopic...rant... by Beardo+the+Bearded · · Score: 5, Insightful

      People get those gifts because they try. They don't understand math at all, but they know that you do "something mathy".

      I get the same thing all the time. Last year, my mother-in-law got me a put-it-together kinetic flashlight kit for kids. (I'm an Electrical Engineer.) She tried.

      This book might be an interesting read. That's probably what they thought.

      --

      ---
      ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
    2. Re:Offtopic...rant... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The parent post is already at +5, but I'll still say, "Mod Parent Up" just for the hell of it.

    3. Re:Offtopic...rant... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No kidding! That's like all the 'introduction to Pascal' and 'introduction to BASIC' programming books that I kept getting for Christmas... well past the time I'd moved into C/C++ programming.

    4. Re:Offtopic...rant... by Ev0lution · · Score: 5, Insightful
      People don't get Literature majors "Shakespeare for Dummies".

      The problem is that a lack mathematical understanding verging on innumeracy is socially acceptable, cool even. Imagine boasting that you couldn't "do reading", and found books aimed at ten-year-olds too much of a challenge. If that was true, then you wouldn't admit it - but go out to eat with half a dozen friends or workmates, and when it comes to the bill people will cheerfully admit that they're rubbish at Maths and can't divide the total by six. I had one colleague who was impressed that I could divide £45 between seven people...

      Now, if you've ever shown any ability to do any Maths, however basic, from their point of view you're forever "good at Maths". They don't know this book from Landau & Lifshitz, but you're "good at Maths" so you'll like it. Won't you?

    5. Re:Offtopic...rant... by EnronHaliburton2004 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because it's Christmas, and there is all this pressure to buy SOMETHING for you, even if they have no farging idea what you would like.. they just have to buy something... anything.

      PRESSURE PRESSURE PRESSURE! BUY BUY BUY! STUFF STUFF STUFF!

      Jesus who?

    6. Re:Offtopic...rant... by cheese_wallet · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      You should consider a more grateful approach toward life.

    7. Re:Offtopic...rant... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL!

      I have a friend that's persuing a master's degree in literature.

      I love giving funny/absurd gifts, so this one fits perfectly! Procrastinating pays off once again.

      To be honest, I'm surprised I hadn't thought of it before.

      No joke: Thank you, nebaz.

    8. Re:Offtopic...rant... by huge+colin · · Score: 0, Troll

      With no due respect, buying things for the hell of it is way better than silly fairy tales.

    9. Re:Offtopic...rant... by Carbonite · · Score: 1

      I had one colleague who was impressed that I could divide £45 between seven people.

      It depends on how many decimal places you calculated to. If you estimated it to be about 6 per person, I'm not too impressed. If you went to two digits (6.42) that's pretty good. Of course, if you had to use pencil and paper, then I'm not impressed at all. ;)

      --
      ich muß mehr Kuhglocke haben
    10. Re:Offtopic...rant... by daniil · · Score: 1
      People don't get Literature majors "Shakespeare for Dummies".

      No, they don't. They give them children's books instead :7

      --
      Man is a slave because freedom is difficult, whereas slavery is easy.
    11. Re:Offtopic...rant... by rcw-work · · Score: 1
      It depends on how many decimal places you calculated to.

      Not so much when dividing by seven.

      1/7 = .142857142857...
      2/7 = .285714285714...
      3/7 = .428571428571...
      4/7 = .571428571428...
      5/7 = .714285714285...
      6/7 = .857142857142...

      Of course, depending on your audience, simply knowing that may be enough to impress.

    12. Re:Offtopic...rant... by BurntNickel · · Score: 1

      I just tell people to buy me something from my Amazon wish list if they don't know what to get me. Fortunately I don't have anyone in my family who either can't figure that out or don't have access to someone who could show them how.

      --
      And the knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them...
    13. Re:Offtopic...rant... by ReverendLoki · · Score: 1
      People don't get Literature majors "Shakespeare for Dummies".

      Of course not. Heh, who would go an do something like that?

      On a completely unrelated note, it's not too late to find a, er, different gift for a lit major, now is it?

      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    14. Re:Offtopic...rant... by daniil · · Score: 1
      Imagine boasting that you couldn't "do reading", and found books aimed at ten-year-olds too much of a challenge.

      Oh, i fear that you'd be surprised to learn how many people are functionally illiterate (ie can't locate two pieces of information in a sports article). I don't know if any of them are willing to admit it, though.

      Another thing is, while practically everyone can speak and read/write in a language, there are still differences in their comprehension ability. Writing skills can also vary greatly -- and you can see people rather proudly showing their inability to form a sentence or to write any words longer than two syllables ("omg lol u r teh sux!").

      --
      Man is a slave because freedom is difficult, whereas slavery is easy.
    15. Re:Offtopic...rant... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd be impressed too! Where the hell did you get a 3/7-pence coin?!

    16. Re:Offtopic...rant... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Imagine boasting that you couldn't "do reading", and found books aimed at ten-year-olds too much of a challenge.

      Imagine? (sigh) Unfortunately president George Bush is my reality.

    17. Re:Offtopic...rant... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I enjoyed the biography of Paul Erdös which I believe was reviewed on Slashdot a few years ago. The books of John Allen Paulos (like Innumeracy, Beyond Numeracy, and A Mathematician Reads the Newspaper) are also good.

    18. Re:Offtopic...rant... by blighter · · Score: 1
      I'm fairly decent at math, do it for a living, and am fine with doing arithmetic in my head. The problem with dividing up checks, for me, is that I'm usually drunk by the time the check comes around at which point I would classify myself as not only incapable of math but also of appreciating reading material aimed at 10-year olds.

      There's a guy in my office (who also does math for a living) who is famously bad at arithmetic, especially in his head. He always gets it wrong, but give him calculus or stats and he's off to the races.

      Different strokes, I guess.

    19. Re:Offtopic...rant... by dvdeug · · Score: 1

      Writing skills can also vary greatly -- and you can see people rather proudly showing their inability to form a sentence or to write any words longer than two syllables ("omg lol u r teh sux!").

      That's a completely grammatical sentence in the dialect it is spoken. All it shows is that the author wasn't trying to communicate in standard formal English. Linguist studies have shown that poorly educated low-class people tend to have a near-perfect command of their language, even if that language is not the standard formal dialect. Language is an instinct; everyone without brain damage speaks their native language grammatically.

    20. Re:Offtopic...rant... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      go out to eat with half a dozen friends or workmates, and when it comes to the bill people will cheerfully admit that they're rubbish at Maths and can't divide the total by six.
      If they're out with a half dozen other people and want to divide the bill by six, they're taking being rubbish at maths to a whole new level. . .
    21. Re:Offtopic...rant... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would be impressed if you gave me the same result on 45/7 as my calculator does, 45/7 = 6,4285714285714285714285714285714
      or did you just say sum it up to 6.5 ?

    22. Re:Offtopic...rant... by SEE · · Score: 1

      Sorry, the correct answer is £6 8s 10d, with a remainder of tuppence.

      (Okay, but if you're using decimal pounds, £6.43 is closer than £6.42, being one penny over instead of six short.)

    23. Re:Offtopic...rant... by bhaak1 · · Score: 1
      That's a completely grammatical sentence in the dialect it is spoken. All it shows is that the author wasn't trying to communicate in standard formal English. Linguist studies have shown that poorly educated low-class people tend to have a near-perfect command of their language, even if that language is not the standard formal dialect.
      This is more a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SociolectSociolect than a Dialect. The problem with this is that you lose the ability to communicate with those who can't speak "proper" english. That's fine with me. I don't have to talk to them but they most certainly have to talk to people who don't speak their variation of english.
      Language is an instinct; everyone without brain damage speaks their native language grammatically.
      I wouldn't be too sure about that. You learn a language by imitation, but if there too many different impression you don't learn it well. Such a person might speak a language, but he is the only one who does.

      I don't think there are considerably more people like this today, but nowadays they are allowed to go to talk shows.

    24. Re:Offtopic...rant... by Garin · · Score: 1

      I'm in grad school working on mathematical physics. I read all kinds of popular math and physics books -- like this one, or the Feynman books, or the Erdos book from a few years back, and pretty much anything else. I would be very happy to get this book for Christmas. I'd much rather get this than, say, another textbook on pseudodifferential operators.

      It's not about the *math* or the *physics* in the books, it's about the stories behind the people. Sure, Feynman's path integrals play a key role in my research, but I'm far more interested in reading about him playing bongo drums and picking locks during the Manhattan Project. The same thing goes for the rest of the math and physics books I read. Some of the rock-star mathematicians and physicists in history have had pretty interesting lives.

      On the other hand, I don't bother reading or recommending "A Brief History of Time", which really is a "Physics for Dummies" book.

      --
      In any field, find the strangest thing and then explore it. -John Archibald Wheeler
  6. Propaganda by TrollBridge · · Score: 3, Insightful

    One man's propaganda is another man's editorial opinion.

    Why must we use such slanted terms to describe the views of people we disagree with?

    perhaps I just answered my own question.

    --
    There's a Mercedes gap too. I want one and can't afford one, but it's not government's job to do anything about it.
    1. Re:Propaganda by LibertyLovesCompany · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's the same reason that anytime you express a conservative opinion you're modded Troll.

      --
      ""If not us, who -- and if not now, when?"" - Ronald Reagan
    2. Re:Propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Trolls are inherently conservative creatures. And vice versa.

    3. Re:Propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While I will grant that you do have a point the National Review IMHO is propaganda. If you read David Brock's book "Blinded By the Right" or follow the careers of a few others you will see that the National Review is, in a very specific sense propaganda. Rather than carving out a distinct and clear editorial stance the journalists there are paid to attack specific targets in the most vicious way possible.

      While there Brock referred to Anita Hill as "A little bit nutty and a little bit slutty" They also knowingly published false information that the editors and publishers wanted them to because it said what they wanted.

      I am not of the opinion that anyone who disagrees with me is just spreading proaganda or that the democrats are good and republicans evil (or vice versa) but I don't think that rags such as the national review should be dignified with terms such as "editorial" which implies a standard of conduct to which they do not adhere.

    4. Re:Propaganda by kuriharu · · Score: 0

      You've got to be kidding. NR is propaganda? What is Slate or the Nation? Let's not forget NY Times, Newsweek, Time, LA Times, etc. I'd get Carpal Tunnel just from listing them all.

      I guess we'll never get tolerance for views with which liberals don't agree. *SIGH*

    5. Re:Propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      >> It's the same reason that anytime you express a conservative opinion you're modded Troll.

      Or a liberal opinion for that matter.

      I've seen plenty of offtopic liberal bashing and dittoheading modded to +5 insighful. I've seen dead-on ontopic comments modded to -1 for being liberal.

      Sometimes you're the pigeon, and sometimes you're the statue.

    6. Re:Propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Back, and to the left.
      Back, and to the left.

    7. Re:Propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cry me a river, rascist

    8. Re:Propaganda by jmorris42 · · Score: 2, Funny

      > One man's propaganda is another man's editorial opinion.

      Kinda sad actually. If some frothing deaniac at the NYT or somewhere had written a totally non-political book the editors wouldn't have even found it worth mentioning the 'day' job of the author.

      But then what do I know... I read Derbyshire's NRO columns so I'm irredeemably wicked in the eyes of the /. editors.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    9. Re:Propaganda by hackstraw · · Score: 1

      Why must we use such slanted terms to describe the views of people we disagree with?

      Its what you do to distance yourself from an enemy. Even by using a term like regime instead of government makes the bad guys seem much more different than us, even though the words are very similar and there is nothing inherently bad about a regime. It sure sounds bad, though.

    10. Re:Propaganda by DesScorp · · Score: 1

      " Cry me a river, rascist"

      That's the worst fucking troll I've seen in weeks. Come on, can't you do something original? As a proud right wing nutjob, I'm bored. I haven't seen a really GOOD leftist troll in a long time. You, you're just.....weak.

      --
      Life is hard, and the world is cruel
    11. Re:Propaganda by LibertyLovesCompany · · Score: 0

      Well, I have to say that I've never seen any of what you mentioned...at least any that lasted. I had a comment recently with a relatively conservative slant get modded +5 relatively quickly and it's now at zero. Given enough time, conservative comments get weeded out on /. because of the overwhelming liberal readership of this site. The sad thing is that it become an echo-chamber and most slashdotters end up thinking that the rest of the world thinks the same way that they do. Problem is, as the recent Presidential election proved, most of the country is much more center/right than it is left or even left/center.

      --
      ""If not us, who -- and if not now, when?"" - Ronald Reagan
  7. If you are interested in solving math puzzles by suso · · Score: 3, Interesting

    You might check out my current MD5hash Challenge. Some people have told me that it is impossible to solve, some have said that mathematically it is solveable.

    Not quite related to primes, but close and can certainly create an obsession. Also, look behind the scenes for something simpler to solve.

    1. Re:If you are interested in solving math puzzles by julesh · · Score: 2

      You might check out my current MD5hash Challenge. Some people have told me that it is impossible to solve, some have said that mathematically it is solveable.

      They're both right. It might be possible to solve, but will certainly require some developments in cryptography that have yet to be made.

      Failing that, a brute force search of all 128 bit inputs would do the job. I wouldn't expect it to finish quickly though.

      All in all, I'd wager that your money's safe for at least the next ten years.

    2. Re:If you are interested in solving math puzzles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some people have told me that it is impossible to solve, some have said that mathematically it is solveable.

      The number of solutions follows a Poisson distribution. The probability that it's impossible is 1/e = 37%. The probability that there is at least one solution is 1-1/e = 63%.

    3. Re:If you are interested in solving math puzzles by DevCybiko · · Score: 1

      thats an interesting puzzle. a corrolary would be

      md5sum(x) = cat(x)

    4. Re:If you are interested in solving math puzzles by cinnamon+colbert · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      people with web sites with black background and light text, a design consistently cited in top ten lists of bad web design principles, are, in some sense, morons

    5. Re:If you are interested in solving math puzzles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not solvable.

      md5sum(X) = cat(Y) && md5sum(Y) = cat(X)
      So...
      md5sum(Y) = cat(X) && md5sum(X) = cat(Y)

      Replacing variables we get...

      md5sum(X) = cat(X) && md5sum(X) && md5sum(Y) = cat(X)

      md5sum(X) = cat(X) && md5sum(X) && cat(X) && md5sum(X) = cat(X)

      We can quickly see this turns into an infinitely recursive function.

    6. Re:If you are interested in solving math puzzles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh Yeah?

      You where saying that such people are morons?
      You can take your foot out of your mouth now.

    7. Re:If you are interested in solving math puzzles by NoMoreNicksLeft · · Score: 1

      The first file is 92.8 gigs. The second is 14.3 terabytes. I thought I would warn you to clean out your inbox first, so that you don't go over your mailserver quota.

      I also have five more solutions, though they aren't small like the one I'm submitting. I'd be willing to submit them too, though you'll have to buy the HDs and pay freight to have them shipped.

      B) 601.4 petabytes and 993,563,124 exabytes
      C) 886 terabytes* and 221,454,442,899 exabytes
      D) 6.82 x 10^884 exabytes and 1.31 x 10^1019 exabytes
      E) 4.2 gigabytes and 6.24 x 10^2034 exabytes
      F) 904 terabytes and 8.12 x 10^4086 exabytes

      * Note: Interestingly, though not necessarily mathematically significant, this file contains a 900 meg block of bytes that is valid mpeg2 and depicts slightly grainy video that shows what looks like a man that closely resembles Hugh Grant** fellating a younger George W. Bush. Numerologists should remember that this doesn't mean that the video is real, nor should it be considered such.

      ** Note: If you know anyone that goes by the nickname of "Bubby" and could have passed for a Hugh Grant look-a-like from 1980-1990, please email me with a picture of their face. We might be able to collaborate on a best-seller, guaranteed book deal.

    8. Re:If you are interested in solving math puzzles by Brakz0rz · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Bullshit. A black background makes it easier to read. White backgrounds are like staring into a lightbulb.

      And what do you gain by being an asshole in your response anyway?

      Some people say that those who can't properly punctuate are, in some sense, morons.

      --
      "Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." - Denis Diderot
    9. Re:If you are interested in solving math puzzles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    10. Re:If you are interested in solving math puzzles by Kjella · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Failing that, a brute force search of all 128 bit inputs would do the job. I wouldn't expect it to finish quickly though.

      Actually, it is possible that the problem is unsolvable. You have 2^160 (not 128) inputs, 2^160 outputs. If there is a strict one-to-one mapping, it might not hold true for any pair. Personally, I think I'd be willing to give $50 for a proof that a solution exists at all. A lot more for a proof that a solution didn't exist.

      To demonstrate, I'll use a silly 2 bit "hash" function.

      00->01
      00->10
      10->11
      11->00

      There is no pair a,b so that hash(a) == b && a == hash(b). There's a strict one-to-one map. The same could be true of MD5 sums.

      Kjella

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    11. Re:If you are interested in solving math puzzles by phyruxus · · Score: 1
      All affirmations are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense.

      When I read a page with a white background, I press <Ctrl>-A

      Mmmmmm... yellow text in -2 font on orange background.

      --
      "A witty saying proves nothing." ~Voltaire
      "d'Oh!" ~Homer
    12. Re:If you are interested in solving math puzzles by SLOGEN · · Score: 1

      Not quite related to primes, but close

      how? md5 is not based on primes, or even irreducible elements of fields. Your problem is much closer related to psuedo-random generators.

      The task you set is (for f=md5sum):

      Given f: D->D,find x,y: f(x) == y && f(y) == x

      which is equivalant to (since y = f(x)):

      find x: f(f(x)) == f^2(x) == x

      So the task amounts to finding an element in the kernel of (f^2).

      A solution may not even exist, for example:

      let D = {0,1,2}
      let f(x) = (x+1)%3

      That depends entirely on the properties of the md5sum function, of which rather little is known. So, people might be right in saying it's unsolvable, and they might not... I don't think anybody knows at this time.

      At any rate, if md5 is any kind of good as a hash (it's on it's last breath in the crypto-world http://eprint.iacr.org/2004/199.pdf) it is rather unlikely that any specific number is a solution.

      Even if md5 is not a very good hash-function it is certainly complicated enough to require much more restricted attacks than finding f^2 neutral elemnts, at least at the current time :)

      --
      SLOGEN [ http://ungdomshus.nu : Sebastian cover music]
    13. Re:If you are interested in solving math puzzles by Shimmer · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I think that's more "pure" and thus more interesting. I wonder why the original poster jumped over it to the two-file version.

      --
      The most rabid believers in American Exceptionalism are the exact same people whose policies are destroying it.
    14. Re:If you are interested in solving math puzzles by Shimmer · · Score: 1

      Sadly for you, the size of both files will always be 128 bits (since that's the size of an md5hash output).

      --
      The most rabid believers in American Exceptionalism are the exact same people whose policies are destroying it.
    15. Re:If you are interested in solving math puzzles by NoMoreNicksLeft · · Score: 1

      Sadly for you, the english language is challenging. He said only that the two files "contain" the hash of the other, not that they are the hash of the other. See the difference? That means the only effective restriction is that the files each be 128 bits or larger.

    16. Re:If you are interested in solving math puzzles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because IQ(original poster) < 115.

    17. Re:If you are interested in solving math puzzles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sadly for you, the problem description is more than just the first two sentences. You're wrong. Be a man and admit it.

    18. Re:If you are interested in solving math puzzles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is a related question I have been wondering about: does there exist a file X such that

      GUNZIP(X) = X

      I think that this could be possible in theory.

    19. Re:If you are interested in solving math puzzles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Very silly hash function indeed!

      I assume that you want "01" to map to "10", right?

    20. Re:If you are interested in solving math puzzles by NoMoreNicksLeft · · Score: 1

      Again, he only gives an example. No where does it say (or imply) that that example is exhaustive of all possible examples, or that it's the only function that satisfies the conditions he has set forth.

      Besides which, you need to get a fucking sense of humor, and maybe a brain. If you have to settle for one or the other, go for the brain.

    21. Re:If you are interested in solving math puzzles by booyabazooka · · Score: 1

      Sadly still for you, he then elaborates: md5sum(X) = cat(Y) && md5sum(Y) = cat(X) With the equals sign presumably indicating that the contents of each file must be exactly the md5 sum of the other.

    22. Re:If you are interested in solving math puzzles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then 2*x+3 = y && 2*y+3 = x should be unsolvable for the same reason. Oh wait, it is solvable.

    23. Re:If you are interested in solving math puzzles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I assume that you want to correct the wikipedia page on md5sum which says that the output is 128 bits, has examples of 128-bit outputs, and has pseudocode generating 128 bits.

    24. Re:If you are interested in solving math puzzles by NoMoreNicksLeft · · Score: 1

      That's an example, idiot. Do you know what those are? It's an illustration of one of the (sometimes many) possible scenarios that follows the preceding rule. Think about this very carefully. If your 1040EZ tax return shows:

      For example: Gross Annual Income $6000, then your blahblah blah...

      Do you fill in $6000, no matter what? No, it's an example, not an exhaustive list of every single possibility. Maybe he doesn't even intend for it to have that meaning, but if I was marked wrong on some important test, I'd then protest this an ambiguous, or even poorly worded question.

      What you are using is the definition of cryptographic symetry, and yet I don't see that term used even once.

  8. Evens and odds in GEB by kzinti · · Score: 2, Informative

    The line between the mathematical half of the book and the historical is clearly defined; the odd-numbered chapters are devoted to the former, the even to the latter.

    It's been a long time since I read Douglas Hofstadter's "Godel, Escher, Bach", but didn't it use the same kind of formula, alternating between dialogs and discussion chapters? I really loved that book. I've heard a lot of criticism of it from mathematicians and musicians, but that noise always sounded like so much professional nitpicking to me.

  9. ISBN not prime by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    ISBN 0452285259 = 3 * 1009 * 149417

    The author must be sad.

    1. Re:ISBN not prime by Alsee · · Score: 1

      ISBN 0452285259 = 3 * 1009 * 149417

      Yeah, but WOW! Do you realize that all three of those numbers are prime!?!

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  10. What is bad about him? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I really don't know a thing about the guy. What is repugnant about him?

    1. Re:What is bad about him? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      *gasp* He's a conservative! Run for the hills!

      It's entirely people's prerogative to mix politics and pleasure, but my God, what a silly prerogative to exercise.

    2. Re:What is bad about him? by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Could be worse -- he might've been *gasp* a liberal!

      Besides, in the field of mathematics, being conservative is not a bad thing as long as the Earth is still round. ;)

    3. Re:What is bad about him? by kuriharu · · Score: 0

      >> Could be worse -- he might've been *gasp* a liberal! But aren't liberals the ones who don't want to admit they're liberals? Conservatives toss that label around easily. It's liberals who dodge the title! Only a select number of Hollywood types (read: fools) accept it openly: Micheal Boore, Al Freakin, etc. I openly admitted my conservatism, even when I went to 2 liberal colleges.

    4. Re:What is bad about him? by fenix+down · · Score: 3, Informative

      He had a little bitchy slap-fight with the student body of the University of Michigan a while ago that resulted in this pretty good guide though his profound love of the word "buggery". Seriously, he writes articles where he'll use it like 16 times in a single paragraph.

    5. Re:What is bad about him? by White+Rabbit+132 · · Score: 1

      Those guys don't count; they do it all for shock factor, thrills, and thrilling shocks. Or something to that effect.

      --
      If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.
    6. Re:What is bad about him? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      holy crap! I didnt know lynn conway was a trannie!!! Omygosh that is such a surprise.

    7. Re:What is bad about him? by kuriharu · · Score: 0

      I think that proves that National Review is not propaganga but is in fact, serious political debate. They DON'T express opinions for such shallow reasons, but they do it out of reason and from their own thoughts. It's a good magazine and website. Jonah Goldberg is a genius. It's worth your time.

  11. Examples of Math books for lay people by thegameiam · · Score: 5, Informative

    Try Mathematics for the Million by Hogben - it's fantastic, and the most coherent Calculus explanation I've ever encountered.

    --
    Need Geek Rock? Try The Franchise!
    1. Re:Examples of Math books for lay people by photon317 · · Score: 2, Insightful


      I second this - Mathematics for the Million is truly a classic that belongs in this category that the story author referred to. It should be handed out to every child at a reasonable age, so that they can use it as an extra-curricular guide as they learn their way through the horrors of school-taught math.

      --
      11*43+456^2
    2. Re:Examples of Math books for lay people by claytongulick · · Score: 1

      Don't forget "The Golden Ratio" and "A History of the Circle". Two of my personal favorites.

      --
      Drinking habits can be dangerous. You can choke on the cloth and the nuns will wonder where their clothes are.
    3. Re:Examples of Math books for lay people by thegameiam · · Score: 2, Informative

      For that matter, I forgot Flatland by Albee and Godel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid by Hofstadter...

      --
      Need Geek Rock? Try The Franchise!
    4. Re:Examples of Math books for lay people by tamills · · Score: 1

      The best math book ever has to be Calculus Made Easy by Silvanus Thompson and edited by Martin Gardener.

      I studied Calc for 4 semesters to get a Math Minor for my B.S. degree. I can honestly say I left college with little idea what calculus was. Within 4 chapters of this book, by and large, I got what I'd been missing: a practical descriptive answer for "What the heck is calculus?".

      --

      Be careful what you wish for...

      Where your treasure is there is your heart also...

    5. Re:Examples of Math books for lay people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not trying to be mean, but it sounds like you went to a diploma mill.

    6. Re:Examples of Math books for lay people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Men of Mathematics and Mathematics : Queen and Servant of Science by Eric Temple Bell

    7. Re:Examples of Math books for lay people by SquadBoy · · Score: 1

      and Flatterland which rules.

      --

      Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
    8. Re:Examples of Math books for lay people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doubtful, mathematics at the BS level is terribly non-integrated, no pun intended. Methods and rote are stressed, but many students don't get a class about mathematics, only separate areas of it, which may or may not seem related at the time. The students can come away knowing how to solve all the different types of problems, but how it all fits together is hazy. This isn't a fault of students, or schools really, as mathematics qua mathematics is a terribly difficult thing.

    9. Re:Examples of Math books for lay people by adeydas · · Score: 1

      this is a good book and highly recommended for everyone...

    10. Re:Examples of Math books for lay people by sbenj · · Score: 1

      Two recommendations: Infinity and the mind (Rudy Rucker). -Mostly about infinity, paradoxes, etc,etc. I've seen this material in lots of other popularization books but Rucker seems to really enjoy it rather than just explain it. Hooked me on his work.
      The book of numbers (John Conway, Richard Guy). Just beautiful.

    11. Re:Examples of Math books for lay people by JaxWeb · · Score: 1

      I recently took Infinity and the Mind from the school library, and I'd like to warn you to take what it says with a pinch of salt. It is wrong and over-simplified (Whilst claiming it is the truth) in many places!

      --
      - Jax
  12. Motivation by Juiblex · · Score: 2, Informative

    Let serve as motivation the fact that anyone who can actually proof (but not disproof) the Riemann Hipothesis will won a prize of US$ 1E6 (i.e, US$ 1000000.00)!

    1. Re:Motivation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      shit, I read that as IE6 and thought, "why the fuck would anyone who won the Clay Institute prize want to use IE?"

    2. Re:Motivation by multiplexo · · Score: 2, Funny
      Let serve as motivation the fact that anyone who can actually proof (but not disproof) the Riemann Hipothesis will won a prize of US$ 1E6 (i.e, US$ 1000000.00)!

      Plus chicks will dig you. Yessiree, I'm telling you. If you prove the Riemann Hyphothesis you'll be getting into some prime poontang. If you know what I mean.

      --
      cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
    3. Re:Motivation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry, but that's not quite right. Disproving the Riemann Hypothesis by finding a non-trivial zero for the Zeta Function having real part other than one-half would certainly earn you a million dollars from the Clay Math Institue.

      Of course, it would also probably earn you a lynching from the thousands of mathematician who have built their research careers based upon prefacing every theorem with the phrase "Assuming that GRH..." ^_^

    4. Re:Motivation by Alsee · · Score: 1

      You know, other than a single exeception, that stuff is all quite odd. If you know what I mean.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  13. Re:"Propagandist"?!? by Sophrosyne · · Score: 1

    First: the guy is from Long Island NY.
    Second: Here is a definition of the word propagandist.
    -Hope that makes you feel less stupid now.

  14. Definition of propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Definition of propaganda: information, facts, or opinions that you don't agree with. Therefore, you want them belittled or censored.

  15. Don't come along often? by JackBuckley · · Score: 5, Informative
    It's a minor point, but I have to take issue with the poster's statement that popular math books don't come along often. How about:

    Mathematics And Sex (2004)

    Pi: A Biography of the World's Most Mysterious Number (2004)

    Chance: A Guide to Gambling, Love, the Stock Market and Just About Everything Else (2004)

    Entanglement: The Unlikely Story of How Scientists, Mathematicians, and Philosphers Proved Einstein's Spookiest Theory (2003)

    The Mathematical Century : The 30 Greatest Problems of the Last 100 Years (2003)

    The Golden Ratio : The Story of PHI, the World's Most Astonishing Number (2003)

    When Least Is Best : How Mathematicians Discovered Many Clever Ways to Make Things as Small (or as Large) as Possible (2003)

    The Honors Class: Hilbert's Problems and Their Solvers (2001)

    An Imaginary Tale (1998)

    e: The Story of a Number (1998)

    Just to pick some recent examples (i.e. not including the masterpieces of Martin Gardner and other recreational mathematicians in the 1960s and 70s, and apologies if I left off your favorite). I would agree, however, that good pop-math books are a great deal more rare.

    1. Re:Don't come along often? by Qinopio · · Score: 1

      You're forgetting "The Life of Pi".

      --
      __________
      [Big Brick Wall]
    2. Re:Don't come along often? by littlem · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not to forget N. Bourbaki, "Elements de Mathematique".

    3. Re:Don't come along often? by pjt33 · · Score: 1

      I look at that list and I've heard of two of them. Am I the only person to wonder whether "popular" in your first sentence means "written for the people" rather than "known about by the people"?

    4. Re:Don't come along often? by JackBuckley · · Score: 1

      Good point. What I mean here by popular (and what I think the poster means) is only that the books are written for a general audience--not that they are best sellers by any means. Think of Popular Mechanics, for example. Making math books for the masses by no means implies that the masses will buy them!

    5. Re:Don't come along often? by pimpin+apollo · · Score: 1

      That may well be true, but I read Prime Obsession last year and it was in a class of its own. The text is easily read, and Derbshyire is adept at making little comments that suggest a much deeper connection that we haven't discovered yet. It's quality writing, and the math is deceptively simple. It's complicated stuff, but easy to follow. It'd be a good book for young math enthusiasts as well... I can imagine my excitment if I'd have found this book when I was 12 or 14.

  16. Re:uh... by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1
    That's 'speelchekur', you dummy! Where'd you learn to speel?

    --
    Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
  17. Amazon link by norculf · · Score: 0

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0309 085497/qid=1103745016/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl 14/104-9691547-0499969?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

    Slashdot's vendetta against Amazon is rediculous. Freedom of choice is more important than silly patents. You may click the link in the article to buy it from B&N, or this link to buy it from Amazon.

  18. Re:uh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why would you want to post: "I'm ignorant, and I want everyone to know it!"?

  19. Choice is good... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...as long as it's our (Slashdotters) choice.

  20. Review: Review: Prime Obsession by daVinci1980 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    ... f(x)=x^2-2x+1... x=1 where f(x)=0

    It's called white space. Look into it. Humans parse on it much faster then they parse on operators.
    ... f(x) = x^2 - 2x + 1... x = 1 where f(x) = 0
    --
    I currently have no clever signature witicism to add here.
    1. Re:Review: Review: Prime Obsession by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, I read the former faster. It's shorter, so there's less eyetracking needed. Plus, all the relevant terms are together, not strung out like islands in the Pacific.

      If whitespace were the be-all and end-all of parsing, it would be easier to read s e n t e n c e s w r i t t e n l i k e t h i s.

      Whitespace on either side of an equals sign is OK. Either side of active operators is only OK if the preceding and following terms themselves are particularly complex, or part of a long list.

      As with written English, put spaces where it increases comprehension - between the major terms of each statement. Individual atoms of the statement don't need separating out.

    2. Re:Review: Review: Prime Obsession by daVinci1980 · · Score: 1

      The problem is *where* you define atoms of the statement. In a sentence, words are atoms, and are seperated by spaces.

      Byyoursuggestion,sentencesshouldbewrittenlikethi sa slesseyetrackingneeded.Whichisalwaystheprimeculpri tforhowlongittakestoreadsomething.

      In English, humans parse on whitspace first, then a combination of the first and last few letters of a word. This is why that e-mail went around awhile back that suggseted taht wrods wtih letetrs swpaped aruond colud sitll be raed qucikly. That is, reading is primarily a game of pattern recognition once you have been reading for a significant amount of time. You cease to read every letter and begin to read words. There are of course, exceptions to this rule (particularly words that are often not used, such as antidisestablishmententarianism).

      In math (and especially in programming), there is not such a strong familiarity with the 'words' used. It is unlikely that a piece of code being debugged has been around for 10-15 years. It is far *less* likely that *you* have maintained that particular piece of code and have spent any significant time in that code on a daily basis (and your respective deity help you if you have).

      As an example, here is a significantly more complex example:

      (b*d-1)|(d+1)*(a+c)==(b*d-1)|(b+1)*(a+c)

      Which can be more clearly written as:
      ((b * d - 1) | ((d + 1) * (a + c))) ==
      ((b * d - 1) | ((b + 1) * (a + c)))

      (and of course, this could be improved upon further by pulling out like terms and computing them in advance).

      Then again, maybe we should do what you suggested. I imagine that the classic works would be much more enjoyable without whitespace:

      Itwasthebestoftimes,itwastheworstoftimes...

      --
      I currently have no clever signature witicism to add here.
    3. Re:Review: Review: Prime Obsession by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ugh, are you saying the latter is better? IT's terrible. The first is definitely 100x more readable, and I'm a trained mathematician. Of course, any typewriter syntax for math is quite terrible for anything more than a few lines...you're wrong though.

  21. Majored in math, away from it for a year by HeaththeGreat · · Score: 2, Insightful

    After working at Initech for a year and not using any of my math skills, this was a welcome dip in the math kiddie pool.

    I would probably need to do a few laps before I could go playing around near the high-dive again or anything. I don't think this speaks to my grasp of the subject or my intelligence, but to my complete abandonment of study for a long period.

    This wouldn't be a book to get someone that works in a heavily mathematical field, but its a great choice for the coder in your live that likes math but has to write boring code all day to pay the bills.

    1. Re:Majored in math, away from it for a year by operagost · · Score: 2, Funny

      Initech, eh? So did you ever get those TPS reports worked out?

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    2. Re:Majored in math, away from it for a year by GuyMannDude · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This wouldn't be a book to get someone that works in a heavily mathematical field...

      Why not? I have a Ph.D. in math from one of the top scientific institutions in the world and I think the book sounds interesting. Quoting from the above review:

      By a larger margin, however, Prime Obsession's intrigue lies in Derbyshire's expositions on Riemann, Hilbert, Turing, Gauss, et al, as well as those modern mathematicians he's interviewed personally. The line between the mathematical half of the book and the historical is clearly defined; the odd-numbered chapters are devoted to the former, the even to the latter.

      This book is not a "dip in the math kiddie pool" like you suggest; it's an examination of the personalities behind the equations. I know quite a bit of math but very little about the people who developed the theories and the trials they had to go through. I suspect that most people who work in "heavily mathematical field" are in the same boat. And these stories can be very interesting. Ever read the account (or see the PBS special) about Andrew Wiles's proof of Fermat's Last Theorem? Fascinating stuff!

      I think this idea that popular math books appeal only to those who know something about math is unfortunate. It prevent the public at large from understanding and appreciating mathematics. Carl Sagan did wonders for astronomy with his Cosmos series (although the isn't too tough to do because, as my astronomer friend Nicole says, "astronomy is a 'sexy' science") but we don't have any real champion for other fields of science. I think books like this should appeal to a large audience: mathematicians and the math-phobic alike.

      GMD

    3. Re:Majored in math, away from it for a year by Cowculator · · Score: 1

      Actually, I've read this book. I've also taken a graduate class in analytic number theory at MIT. Sure, a bunch of the math was stuff I already knew, but there's a lot of really well-written history in there that makes the book worthwhile on its own, and it can only be better if you haven't taken all of the prerequisites.

  22. Darn them! by Kredal · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    And here I was a book about Samus Aran... Ah well.

    --
    Whoever stated that signature sizes should be limited to one hundred and twenty characters can just go ahead and kiss my
  23. Re:uh... by taradfong · · Score: 1

    Sense of humor turn on

    --
    Does it hurt to hear them lying? Was this the only world you had?
  24. My favorite. by standards · · Score: 3, Interesting

    My favorite book on math is The Mathematical Tourist by Ivars Peterson.

    It's very readable, and has chapters on interesting stuff like knot theory, cellular automata and primes.

    I highly recommend it. It isn't going to turn anyone into a math professor, but it is very interesting reading.

  25. Of Course by Icephreak1 · · Score: 2, Interesting


    I've heard a lot of criticism of [Hofstadter's "Godel, Escher and Bach"] from mathematicians and musicians..

    Of course mathematicians and musicians will criticize the book. It challenges the very logical foundations upon which their theories are based. Perhaps the most dogmatic disciplines outside of Christian fundamentalism are the sciences. It's the age old case of man believing his logic is impenetrable, where in reality it amounts to nothing more than the finger pointing to the moon. The sciences may have theory-this and theory-that, but they will never in an infinite amount of lifetimes be able to run the full course of reality with their tools. And that's a fact that mathematics itself asserts.

    I once ran into an old friend of mine I knew back in middle school. He has a twin brother that, over ten years since he left highschool is still in university plugging away at some mathematics doctorate. I silently asked myself. What are his aims, his purpose? To solve the universe? It was clear he was always a brilliant student; I'm sure his I.Q. is off the chart, but ambitious mathematicians have to learn to let go. All their combined knowledge amounts to one drop in the Pacific ocean of reality.

    If you take a liking to esoterics and esoteric knowledge, you will notice there's a smooth transition between scientists and esoterics; that is, there is the complete scientist who deems it worthless to search for truth in the unseen and the non-constant -- that the only universe worth pursuing is the visible and measurable universe. Then you have the transition scientists (Godel, Heisenberg) who through experiments of their own come to the realization that the sciences are not adequately equipped to be able to completely ascertain truth and that there must be more -- another form of reasoning perhaps outside the realm of postulation and thought where paradox becomes perfectly logical, but they may at the same time reserve making any definite statement about one or the other, effectively taking up the agnostic position.

    Finally you have the esoteric, who acknowledges science as a method for ascertaining some degree of truth, though a limited portion of it, but through experience is assured that complete truth is to be found outside the dualistic disciplines of science and philosophy. Zen masters, enlightened sufis or Christian mystics might fall into that category. Due to their highly honed awareness, they are able to acertain more in a ten minute period about the laws of life than ten scientists could over the course of a hundred years. These, quite rightfully are higher order human beings. I imagine it's the same sort of higher order, perhaps to a somewhat lesser degree, that allows the idiot savant to blast through hundreds of years of perpetual calendars or calculate ridiculously large numbers in their heads almost instantaneously. Savants appear to have a firm, instinctual understanding of computational causality. They may very well be solving our mathematics from some other conscious plane the rest of humanity haven't yet achieved, a plane that allows them to blaze logical trails in parallel and from a figurative bird's eye view, through our "world." The same thing goes for enlightened men. Though we may plug along attempting to understand the unverse with 4-bit effectiveness, they do it from a conscious vantage point that may exceed a figurative 1024-bits or more. They simply know.

    - IP

    1. Re:Of Course by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Due to their highly honed awareness, they are able to acertain more in a ten minute period about the laws of life than ten scientists could over the course of a hundred years.

      I ran into someone like this. What you might call "highly honed awareness" could also be construed as any number of mental illness diagnoses.

      The fact that we cannot "posess" all of the knowledge of the universe, how it works, etc., and therefore should not even try has been used by everyone (including religious mystics) to enforce, either on purpose or as a side effect, various levels of social order or even castes.
      There are various levels of "those in the know", and the rest of the "unwashed masses" that need to be saved from themselves and their unenlightened dismal future.

      Look at most churches. There's one "enlightened" one, usually the shaman, preacher, Dalai Lama, imam or mullah, Rabbai or Pope, who is in one form or another "chosen" to be the leader, guide or teacher, either by his apparent enlightenment or collective belief that he's just been...Chosen.

      Any who question or challenge are politely or less politely dealt with to get back in line or get kicked off of the boat, figuratively or literally. A new one is not promoted until the existing one dies (or is killed off), in the hardest cases, or "moves on".

      While savants may appear to have a "firm, instinctual understanding of a very narrow aspect of computational causality", most of them are less or even less able to function on their own in the world at large.

      I suppose I should throw in references to Plato's "dark cave" analogy, etc., but why bother.

    2. Re:Of Course by Warlock7 · · Score: 1

      Simply put: God is in the details.

    3. Re:Of Course by dvdeug · · Score: 1

      Due to their highly honed awareness, they are able to acertain more in a ten minute period about the laws of life than ten scientists could over the course of a hundred years.

      Then why didn't they cure polio or smallpox? Why didn't they invent some way to keep juvenile diabetics alive? Why don't they invent someway to cure them now? If they know so much about the laws of life, why don't they use them for the good of humanity?

      This is personal; I've had a close friend ripped from the world at a young age by a cruel disease. Scientists did every damn thing they could to keep here alive, and failed. Where the fuck were your "higher order human beings" then?

    4. Re:Of Course by smallfries · · Score: 1

      You make some interesting points, although I fear that you slip into unnecessary obtruseness in places. One or two things that could do with a touch of clarity.

      How exactly does mathematics assert that science could never explore reality fully in an infinite amount of time? Firstly, mathematics does not assert facts about reality, that is the job of the physical sciences. Mathematics operates within an abstract platonic domain indepent of reality - although its conjectures and theorems may have some utility in reality. Secondly, nobody even knows what form an ultimate description of reality will take - it could be finite, or even digital for all that we know.

      Your last point seems to be based on an implicit assumption a) that the physical sciences cannot accurately describe reality and that b) experiences by the 'enlightened' are valid in any sense. Whilst it is true that these people come up with wild fantastic explanations for reality, there is no verification that anything they say is correct. Anyone could imagine a florrid description of the universe in ten minutes, the difference is that science is capable of providing a measure of objectivity about its claims.

      An interesting post though, and a very old debate. Yes, the book itself is quite good. I think that Ant Fuguee was one of the more entertaing expositions and a good description of holism.

      --
      Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
    5. Re:Of Course by |/|/||| · · Score: 1
      You started out making sense, but then you ended up talking crazy talk.

      First off, just so you know where I'm coming from, I consider myself to be a scientist. My entire philosophy and everything that I know is based on science. This is not because of some sort of fundamental devotion - it is because I haven't discovered a more useful way of looking at things.

      OK, so Godel's theorem shows that for any sufficiently powerful logical system, there are truths about that system that are not theorems. So what? You seem to think it's a big deal that science can't prove/discover everything that is true about the universe. Luckily for scientists, we don't fool ourselves by thinking that such a thing is possible. I accept the fact that science is weak. I accept the fact that there are truths that cannot be discovered. Science is a tool whereby we can make useful generalizations about that which we perceive. Can you think of anything more powerful than that? I can't.

      Sorry about the "crazy talk" accusation, but that stuff you got into at the end just makes no sense. If a savant has a photographic memory or can make calculations very quickly, what has that got to do with science explaining the universe? Did the savant "tap into" some truth about the universe that is inaccessible to science? Think about it - brains are powered by the laws of physics. The fact that the savant's brain "tapped into" that particular truth means that that truth *is* provable. The savant proved it!

      More generally, all brains are bound by the very same rules that science is. Why should a Zen master's brain be able to violate Godel's incompleteness theorem, when science cannot? The only way to justify such a claim would be to invoke magic.

      What is my point? My point is this:
      A. Science cannot prove all truths about the universe.
      B. Science is the most powerful (if not the only) tool that we have for discovering possible truths about the universe.
      C. Anybody who is out to discover absolute truth is wasting their time.

      --
      [javac] 100 errors
    6. Re:Of Course by Icephreak1 · · Score: 1


      How exactly does mathematics assert that science could never explore reality fully..

      Well, I lost a massive post due to a temporamental Slashdot website. Seems it doesn't want me sticking around composing posts longer than it cares to babsysit me, so I'll paraphrase.

      Godel's Incompleteness Theorem. It opens the possibility that within logical systems, when all truths can't be proved, no truth can be considered reliable. And that's precisely what it does -- proves that the "truths" that mathematics finds can't be unequivocably proven true, no matter what the means. The very logical bedrock of math is flawed, and anything math asserts is missing an essential something. The problem with math and science in general is, it can prove a lot of things, but when it attempts to examine its own logical foundations using its own basic axioms, big fatal error. That ought to be an indicator right there.

      Firstly, mathematics does not assert facts about reality..

      Not correct. Mathematics explains the finite. "Finite" and "infinite" are not opposites, but the finite is a subset of the infinite. Mathematics asserts facts about part of reality, but it is not well-equipped to assert facts about all of it. So says mathematics itself.

      Mathematics operates within an abstract platonic domain indepent of reality

      Not correct! There is nothing independent of reality. Reality is infinite, and infinity by definition does not exclude and nothing stands apart from it. There's a subtle assertion of set theory logic in this very idea, and with a bit of thought applied to it, it makes perfect sense. The underlying purpose of mathematics, like all sciences, is the aquisition of truth. Nothing more, nothing less and no matter how irrelevant you believe it may be. Science and religion are united in their highest aim. Perhaps one may do it more thoroughly than the other.

      Your last point seems to be based on an implicit assumption a) that the physical sciences cannot accurately describe reality and that b) experiences by the 'enlightened' are valid in any sense.

      At the far end of the physical sciences there are two things -- Uncertainty and Incompleteness. I didn't apply those terms to either. That's Godel and Heisenberg's doing. I base my belief on the existence of truth outside of science due to science demonstrating its own unreliability in being able to accurately acertain truth with one hundred percent infallibility.

      Whilst it is true that these people come up with wild fantastic explanations for reality, there is no verification that anything they say is correct.

      Truth, real truth, is self-verifying. It's the scientists and their stubborn dogmatism that want the concrete evidence. To scientists, anything outside the visible, observable universe isn't worth pursuing and it's exactly this willingness to exclude that serves to cut them off from the most important truths in life.

      If I were to ask you who you are, how would you answer? You'd probably tell me your name, but are you a name? How about a body? Are you a body? If so, why do we say we "have" a body and precisely what is it within us that has this body? Why is it that when I the subject look at life's objects -- the trees, the clouds and rocks -- I say they are not me, yet when I observe my own arm or breathing as an object they belong to me? How do you account for these inconsistencies? You cannot be the seer and the seen all at once, and with a bit of quesioning you too will recognize the incongruity of all these things we take as fact.

      As far as I'm concerned, there is only one real purpose in life -- self-actualization. It's the conscious universe doing what it was meant to do, understand itself. And when you understand you, you understand everything. That's what I believe.

      - IP

    7. Re:Of Course by Icephreak1 · · Score: 1


      This is personal; I've had a close friend ripped from the world at a young age by a cruel disease. Scientists did every damn thing they could to keep here alive, and failed. Where the fuck were your "higher order human beings" then?

      Your problem is that truth will never dawn on you when you are unwilling to operate outside the parameters of all that limits us -- stubbornness, culture, sociology, thought and opinions to name a few. You say your friend was "ripped" from the world. You haven't proven this to finality. Exactly what about your friend what ripped from this world? His mind? His body? His name?

      Who was your friend? Who are you? You have to ask yourself these fundamental questions to get the fundamental answers. And when you get your preliminary answers, keep going! When you die, exactly what dies? Where does it go? Does it come back? Does "it" disappear or remain?

      What is anger and why does the death of your friend motivate certain emotions in you? What causes emotion? Why is it that when a friend asks me to do them a favour, they are pleased when I agree and disappointed when I refuse? There is a cause, a single cause, for all of life's phenomenon and if you want real wisdom, you'll look for it.

      To answer your earlier question, imagine an enlightened being takes up medicine or even psychology. If enlighenment is in fact real, and I'll always take the only realistic stance -- the agnostic stance -- imagine how much more effective in understanding the basic things that pain us, injure us, please us and upset us he'll be able to apply to his discipline.

      Look, you may consider what I saw farfetched, but you have a purpose on this planet, and as a conscious being, acquiring a home and family and living "happily ever after" isn't the most fundamental of your purposes. All you need to do is think a bit, and it will all begin to unravel itself.

      - IP

    8. Re:Of Course by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly what about your friend what ripped from this world? His mind? His body? His name?

      Get a clue: "ripped" as used by grandparent is a metaphor.

    9. Re:Of Course by Icephreak1 · · Score: 1


      You started out making sense, but then you ended up talking crazy talk.

      Spoken like a true scientist. Put into perspective, we're all crazy from someone else's point of view. But at the same time, what constitutes "crazy" is a simple variation of only question that matters -- who am I? Where does crazy end and sane begin? Can you point that out for me? You cannot, because those categories don't exist in reality. You created them.

      Science is a tool whereby we can make useful generalizations about that which we perceive. Can you think of anything more powerful than that? I can't.

      Can't or don't want to? That's part of the overall problem, man. If people would learn to stretch their imaginations, not to readily limit themselves and write off whole portions of potential truths as rubbish or insanity, they may very well surprise themselves. There is probably an infinite figurative examples of the world being round where we believe it's flat, and like then, we curse ourselves after the fact for not even considering otherwise. That's the number one problem. Nobody questions anything.

      Sorry about the "crazy talk" accusation, but that stuff you got into at the end just makes no sense.

      Free your mind. Set aside that scientific judgement of yours, read a bit of Ken Wilber, Henry T. Laurency and perhaps a bit of Lao Tzu and you too might change your stance on matters. Not that I'm forcing you to.

      If a savant has a photographic memory or can make calculations very quickly, what has that got to do with science explaining the universe?

      It has plenty to do with how our belief systems limit us and keep us from finding deeper wisdom about life's phenomenae. Why do we find it unusual that man can mentally calculate large numbers in his head to insane precision? There are two things in this -- expectation and fact. The assumption (expectation) is that we expect humans to be X-capable of doing Y, but when man is suddenly X^10 capable of doing Y, far beyond what we consider "normal", why are we surprised?

      Ultimately there's a simple message here. We need to free ourselves from our thinking and expectations, because it's precisely that which limits us.

      Think about it - brains are powered by the laws of physics.

      And the laws of physics are powered by our awareness! No universe exists without consciousness. They are the same.

      Ask yourself the following. Which is more true? That certain brain states brought upon by chemical reactions in the body affect consciousness or do various states of consciousness affect brainstates? It's a chicken or the egg scenario, and you mister scientist appear to have your mind all made up. Bottom line, all the objects of your awareness -- your thoughts, your observations.. everything are dependent on one thing. Consciousness. Understand consciousness and you will understand "you." Once you've done that, the full gamut of the universe's wisdom -- independent of time and space -- may become yours in an instant.

      A. Science cannot prove all truths about the universe.
      B. Science is the most powerful (if not the only) tool that we have for discovering possible truths about the universe.
      C. Anybody who is out to discover absolute truth is wasting their time.

      The first point, you and I somewhat agree on, but the fact remains we haven't or possibly cannot prove that to finality. As for point B), it's far too declarative to be taken seriously as as fact. It amounts to outright domatism. For you to declare this so finally, confidently and dogmatically, you might know something the rest of us don't. Said another way, you must know reality! Is there something you're keeping from us?

      Point C is equally definite. You implicity assume that there is no absolute truth. At least that's what I gather from your statement. For you to make such a claim, again, you must know something the rest of us don't. Please, as a scientist, you know better than to issue conclusions without having seen all the facts, including reality. Or will you agree that the most of what you say, everything you say are mere theories?

      - IP

    10. Re:Of Course by Icephreak1 · · Score: 1


      Get a clue: "ripped" as used by grandparent is a metaphor.

      Plonk.

      - IP

    11. Re:Of Course by smallfries · · Score: 1

      There are many, many inaccuracies in what you've said, and on a bbs such as this it is customary to respond point-by-point and initiate a flamewar. That has always seemed somewhat pointless so I'll just respond to the most salient issues.

      Your understanding of Godel's Incompleteness theorem seems to suffer from common flaws. Either that, or I'm reading more into what you've wrote than what you intended. Not all logical systems are incomplete, only those that have the descriptive power to express the natural numbers. This is not all of mathematics, but a subset. Logical systems which are less expressive than this level can be both sound and complete. There is a good description of this common fallacy on wikipedia.

      You have merely restated that mathematics does refer to reality, and that reality is infinite. Neither of these arguments are verifiable. Whether maths refers to an indepent platonic realm, or is infact constrained by the reality in which we have constructed it is very much an open question and has been debated fiercely by many philosphers and mathematicians.

      Truth, real truth, is self-verifying. It's the scientists and their stubborn dogmatism that want the concrete evidence. This is an odd statement. Truth is not and cannot be self-verifying. What you are describing is faith, which is an entirely separate issue. It is truth that scientists will not take matters on trust alone and have a dogmatism for concrete evidence. This is why they have progressed where-as the mystical approach has remained in the same backwater that it has been for several thousand years. An obsolete method of trying to understand the universe.

      --
      Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
    12. Re:Of Course by Icephreak1 · · Score: 1


      This is why they have progressed where-as the mystical approach has remained in the same backwater that it has been for several thousand years. An obsolete method of trying to understand the universe.

      I revert. When science and mathematics can answer the fundamental question that spawns from humanity's single most important purpose in life, understanding itself, then I'll take back everything I've said.

      So smallfries, who are you?

      - IP

    13. Re:Of Course by smallfries · · Score: 1

      Just a name of course, just a name. ;^)

      --
      Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
    14. Re:Of Course by |/|/||| · · Score: 1

      OK, sorry again about the "crazy talk." Just wanted to catch your attention. ;)

      If people would learn to stretch their imaginations, not to readily limit themselves and write off whole portions of potential truths as rubbish or insanity, they may very well surprise themselves.

      I never advocated such an idea. What I said was that science is the most powerful tool that I know of. I would certainly not discourage anyone from imagining things which we think are wrong or impossible - imagination and creativity are the very things that bring us knowledge! The thing that I think you are missing is the filter - you can imagine anything, but you have to then separate the useful hypotheses from the not so useful. How do you do that? Science! Science is all about letting multiple ideas duke it out to find out which is the "best" according to the principles of logic. Maybe this isn't the best way to understand the universe, but I haven't heard of a better idea!

      No universe exists without consciousness

      I can't think of any reason to believe that. I would say that the reverse *is* true, however.

      Understand consciousness and you will understand "you." Once you've done that, the full gamut of the universe's wisdom -- independent of time and space -- may become yours in an instant.
      So you're saying that if I understood consciousness I would understand the rest of the universe? How does that make any sense? Perhaps when you say "understand" you mean something other than I do. I would say that one who "understands" consciousness has a well tested theory that explains consciousness. This doesn't automatically bring a person the "full gamut of the universe's wisdom."

      I think you misunderstood points B) and C), also. Let me explain:
      B. Science is the most powerful (if not the only) tool that we have for discovering possible truths about the universe.
      Notice that I said "that we have." I didn't say that science is the best and only tool, I said that noone has demonstrated a better one. Big difference.
      C. Anybody who is out to discover absolute truth is wasting their time.
      Notice that I did not say that there is no absolute truth. I'm saying that, according to the incompleteness theorem that started this whole exchange, you cannot prove every truth in the universe. Universal truths may exist, but they're logically unreachable and therefore a waste of time to pursue.

      Oh, and I'll happily agree that "most of what you say, everything you say are mere theories" - in fact, I'll say that "mere" theories are the most powerful statements that can be made. They're all we've got, really.

      --
      [javac] 100 errors
    15. Re:Of Course by Icephreak1 · · Score: 1


      Just a name of course, just a name. ;^)

      That is not the primordial truth, YOUR primordial truth. You are not a name. It's up to you to keep digging until you strike paydirt. Why is it that despite all the wealth, opportunity and success certain people are blessed with, they invariably wonder what it's really all worth when the novelty of having a million bucks in the bank and a fast car on the lot of their twenty-bedroom Beverly Hills homes wears off? That's because they're doing what comes automatically to a consciousness-driven being -- returning to the source through asking themselves life's most important questions. The universe attempting to understand itself, unify itself.

      Despite all the ills in the world, more than ever humanity has the tools, the curiosity and the intellect to help them bound up the ladder of human development, of conscious development, and every facet of our need to know, no matter how seemingly irrelevant what we're trying to know seems, is directed squarely toward that purpose.

      Self-actualization.

      That is the main, the only, the most relevant and most important purpose of human existence.

      - IP

    16. Re:Of Course by phliar · · Score: 1
      Of course mathematicians and musicians will criticize the book. It challenges the very logical foundations upon which their theories are based.
      And so you leave the reality-based world the rest of us inhabit.
      --
      Unlimited growth == Cancer.
    17. Re:Of Course by smallfries · · Score: 1

      Please don't take this as a troll as it is a genuine question. Do you really believe all of this self-improvement crap that you've read? It's all just a collection of buzzwords and pyramid marketing speel that preys on human weakness and the desire to conform to an outside authority. Mankind does have a desire to understand the world, but not through as process as pretentious as self-actualisation. Religion, and later science are attempts to perform this understanding.

      --
      Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
    18. Re:Of Course by Icephreak1 · · Score: 1


      The thing that I think you are missing is the filter - you can imagine anything, but you have to then separate the useful hypotheses from the not so useful. How do you do that? Science! Science is all about letting multiple ideas duke it out to find out which is the "best" according to the principles of logic.

      What constitutes "best" and "useful" and why do you believe science is the only reliable vehicle for making those determinations? Logic cannot determine best, and matter of factly neither can our reasoning because "best" and "useful" aren't relevant in objective reality. Why aren't they? Because "best" and "useful" conceptually speaking are cleaved well apart from the infinite. "Best" is limiting; it sets aside "worse." "Useful" is equally limiting, it sets aside "useless."

      You want something does a better job of expressing the reality of, let's say, a McDonald's Big Mac? Try rolling "good" and "bad" up into one non-dual package and that will address the reality of the Big Mac. But here's the kicker, "goodbad" can't be thought about because thought, even language depends upon dualism to make them work. Bear in mind, "good" can't exist without bad, so when you say a hamburger tastes "good", precisely what are you stating outside of our conditioning that equates the word "good" to mean something nearing "delicious" or "filling" or "pleasant"?

      Limitation is the greatest enemy of truth in its infinity, indivisibility. If we learn to see past that, I'm confident we'll get to the bottom of the true essence of ourselves, and things.

      So you're saying that if I understood consciousness I would understand the rest of the universe?

      I firmly believe that. You would probably be able to fill in the gaps that science can't address -- the why and the how. Figure out what you are and it may completely redefine what everything else is. In fact, I'm absolutely positive that would happen.

      On this truth tip, I won't hesitate to say that perhaps one of the most greatest, if not the greatest treatises on truth and the personal struggle for it is none other than the epic Moby Dick. The book wasn't about a main character named Ahab. It wasn't about the author, Herman Melleville. I'm absolutely convinced he was an enlightened man. Everything in his book were metaphors for more essential truths; the book wasn't about the whale, Ahab, the sea or any of that -- it was about Melleville himself. And I'm certain he found truth.

      How does that make any sense?

      Most people belive atoms are the universe's most elementary particle, but what are atoms made of? I firmly belive they're made of awareness, consciousness, and they are positively indestructible and have an infinte memory (collective consciousness). Not even death can eliminate them. Depending on the esoteric you speak to, they may call those primordial particles "monads", units of consciousness.

      I would say that one who "understands" consciousness has a well tested theory that explains consciousness. This doesn't automatically bring a person the "full gamut of the universe's wisdom."

      Counter questions. What is consciousness? Where is consciousness? Does it exist in the head, heart, abdomen or big toe? Does it exist in the rocks and trees, clouds and moon? Assuming consciousness exists in the head near the brain, can one conclusively say that by cutting off the head they have narrowed and proved its location? If we were to sever a head and subsequently kill a human being, can we say with complete certainty that the cause of his death was something within or outside of awareness? That one I could answer reasonably accurately -- the human was killed within and possibly by awareness, but to take this questioning further we ask more questions that would open up the next layer of truths. What makes us human?

      Universal truths may exist, but they're logically unreachable and therefore a waste of time to pursue.

      Perhaps a waste of t

    19. Re:Of Course by John+Miles · · Score: 1

      It's the age old case of man believing his logic is impenetrable, where in reality it amounts to nothing more than the finger pointing to the moon

      Would this be the same moon we sent some dudes up to tromp around on?

      --
      Dahlmann tightly grips the knife, which he may have no idea how to use, and steps out into the plain.
    20. Re:Of Course by Icephreak1 · · Score: 1


      Please don't take this as a troll as it is a genuine question. Do you really believe all of this self-improvement crap that you've read?

      Crap? As in what? Not worth considering? Irrelvant to the pursuit of truth? How can you be sure about this? Have you seen truth? Because that'll what you'll need to do in order to be able to rule out what I say as not productive toward that purpose. In the meantime, you haven't secured solid a solid basis for your conclusion. Keep going.

      Esoterics is not a matter of belief, it's more a pursuit of understanding. All the postulations, theorizations, suppositions and reasonings are the intermediary steps to a possible destination. And besides, the agnostic in me wouldn't allow let me blindly believe in anything anyway, no matter how airtight its logic may seem.

      It's all just a collection of buzzwords and pyramid marketing speel that preys on human weakness and the desire to conform to an outside authority.

      No, it addresses something at a much lower level than that. And technically there is no outside authority. When somone proves to me there is a sentient being that created this universe, and even still the most I could do is reserve judgement on that matter pending the facts, I say the only authority is man. His conscious self creates the universe, is the universe, and is the universe bringing to fruition its sole purpose -- complete understanding or unity of itself.

      Mankind does have a desire to understand the world, but not through as process as pretentious as self-actualisation.

      Perhaps there's a misunderstanding of the terminology. Self-actualization, the so-called "buzzword", is a compact way of describing the process of something trying to understand itself. If a computer were conscious, and intelligent enough to want to verify its own reason for being it could be said to be attempting to actualize itself -- prove and understand its own identity.

      When Godel turned the rules of mathematics back upon its own rules, one could also say he was attempting to actualize mathematics -- prove its own reason for being. And the most powerful method for actualization is self-reference. Man and mathematics observing their own "conscious streams", if you will.

      Religion, and later science are attempts to perform this understanding.

      You assert that science was meant to pick up where religion leaves off? How do you arrive at this conclusion? What is your basis? Could it not be the other way around? If not, then why do you believe so?

      - IP

    21. Re:Of Course by Icephreak1 · · Score: 1


      Would this be the same moon we sent some dudes up to tromp around on?

      LOL! Good point. And that in itself highlights another presumed fact, but I won't go there.

      - IP

    22. Re:Of Course by smallfries · · Score: 1

      A very interesting post. Thankyou for taking my question at face value, you've come up with a very good and thought provoking response. Perhaps we are slightly at cross-purposes over semantics here. I've only heard the phrase self-actualization with respect to self improvement seminars, most of which are just pyramid marketing schemes - in the sense that if I can convince you that I've found the truth enough, then you'll go out and spread it to other people, and we'll both pretend not to notice that all that I've done is show you how to convince people.

      I've seen a lot of crap over the years, NLP, cults and lots inbetween that has left me somewhat cynical of anyone who claims to have a spiritual understanding of the world. I've also spent a lot of time exploring Zen, Sufi and other mystical viewpoints. I've seen the burning lights and felt the deep realizations of truth that these 'mystic' states can induce.

      I've seen time play tricks and the veil of the future move to one side, and yet after all of this I would reject outright any spiritual description of reality. I am a hard empircal rationalist. Why? Ironically enough it is because intuitively that is how I know the universe to be. I cannot explain most of where that confidence comes from, it is simply a statiscal viewpoint of millions of semi-related observations that my brain has made. It is the funny feel that we let guide us through so much of life.

      It is from this viewpoint that I see religion as obsolete. Religion was clearly an early attempt to understand the world around us. We always start with the most obvious viewpoint and the attempt to anthropormorphise fate and entropy were something that had tp be tried out. Sadly it seems to key quite well to a natural inclincation to respond to tribal authority that we all have in our psyche. It should have died out a long time ago, but it hasn't, and it is keeping that tribal part of us alive and in control for a lot of people.

      Science is another attempt to understand the world around us, to find a deeper truth. It rules out the usage of blind faith and tries to stick to what is externally provable. As such it can be seen to be a step onward, and progress from our earlier attempt - religion.

      Moving in the other direction, from rationalising and attempting to objectify our understanding of the world, towards a subjective belief, would clearly be a step backwards. So no, I do not believe that the other direction can be called progress.

      I used to be agnostic, but over the years I have become firmly atheist in my views. I believe that there is no god. No esoteric spirtual reality in which this one is embedded. At heart it is a simple case of Occam's Razor. If we need to invent some 'other' to explain something within reality, then we simply do not understand it properly, and we cannot learn more about it this way. As these other's that we create are inevitably more complex than the subject we are trying to understand.

      --
      Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
    23. Re:Of Course by Icephreak1 · · Score: 1


      I've also spent a lot of time exploring Zen..

      I'll let you in on a little something -- I am Zen Buddhist.

      Science is another attempt to understand the world around us, to find a deeper truth. It rules out the usage of blind faith and tries to stick to what is externally provable. As such it can be seen to be a step onward, and progress from our earlier attempt - religion.

      I don't disagree that science is useful in uncovering some essential truths that benefit us throughout life, but it too takes a lot on blind faith. In all that I have read, no scientist has explored the possibility that time, for instance, might not be a physical property, but a property of mind. You have string theorists attempting to unify the high and low discplines of physics -- quantum theory and general relativity -- into an impenetrable accounting for of all phenomenae in the universe. All the while, indestructible Father Time and all the matter and space in the cosmos that are inseparably meshed with it are destoyed the moment man suspends mind. When he sleeps! For all one may know, mind may be another dimension of the universe that cannot be overlooked in our pursuit to full understanding of the things around us.

      When simple experiments like this demonstrate the lack of constancy in what are supposed to be unassailable universal properties; when time can be stopped by closing one's eyes and falling into deep sleep, I believe humanity should not ignore consciousness' factoring into the whole equation, despite it not being quantifiable enough to satisfy hardcore scientific types.

      Moving in the other direction, from rationalising and attempting to objectify our understanding of the world, towards a subjective belief, would clearly be a step backwards. So no, I do not believe that the other direction can be called progress.

      It is the logical foundations of science that cannot escape subjectivity. Every unit of logic attempts to cut apart a reality that boldy resists to be put into neat little categories. Science observes and measures in a thoroughly digital manner while reality is analog, so there is always bound to be something missing when science moves to conclusion.

      I used to be agnostic, but over the years I have become firmly atheist in my views. I believe that there is no god. No esoteric spirtual reality in which this one is embedded. At heart it is a simple case of Occam's Razor.

      Atheism asserts as much as it denies. In my opinion you may as well believe in god. Atheism and theism are identical in that they purport to have a solid basis for their assertion or denial of the existence of a creator; that you have had access to the most basic, final and irrefutable facts. But then again you say it's your belief that god doesn't exist. I figure that doesn't place you far from the realm of esoterics at all.

      Of the experience of enlightenment: time again again, I have heard people say that this state is the most simple of states, the most utterly basic of states, yet they have come to full understanding of something to the point where the fundamental questions of existence they've had to that point simply vanished. Perhaps this describes the true Occam's Razor.

      Good discussing things with you. Send me some e-mail sometime.

      icephreak AT lycos DOT com

      - IP

    24. Re:Of Course by dvdeug · · Score: 1

      To answer your earlier question, imagine an enlightened being takes up medicine or even psychology. If enlighenment is in fact real, and I'll always take the only realistic stance -- the agnostic stance -- imagine how much more effective in understanding the basic things that pain us, injure us, please us and upset us he'll be able to apply to his discipline.

      But he can't really help the physical parts. (Which do exist, and if you don't believe it you can try going without food or drink for a few weeks.) So perhaps scientists do understand something better than your "enlightened".

      And frankly, you make a lot of assumptions about enlightenment. If we live in a Lovecraftean world, then the enlightened would be less able to deal with reality then normal people. All the "enlightened" people in that case would just be those that created a useful set of lies.

      Science is interesting because there is a real world, and we mostly agree on what it's like. Handwave death all you want, but people generally agree on when people are dead, and that they don't want to die and that they don't want their family to die. Scientists help them. Your people don't.

      People have been asking your questions since the beginning of time, and so far they haven't agreed on answers. I'd say your questions are less interesting, then.

    25. Re:Of Course by dvdeug · · Score: 1

      What is consciousness? Where is consciousness? [...]

      You have a lot of (non-rhetorical) questions; why don't you have any answers? What's interesting about a lot of questions without answers? If I have an answer to a mathematical or scientific question, I can get other people to check my answer and if they disagree, give me logical reasons why. How do I know if I have the correct answer to one of your questions, if there is no consensus on the simpliest of the questions that have been studied for millenia?

    26. Re:Of Course by Icephreak1 · · Score: 1


      What's interesting about a lot of questions without answers?

      Where there are no answers, there are no questions. Funny thing is, you issue this statement not stoping to even blink at its implications. Perhaps I'm closer to that primordial truth than you are by virtue of my noticing the fact.

      - IP

  26. Why I believe this book to be of interest. by stromthurman · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I know very few mathematicians and math students who aren't familiar with the Riemann Hypothesis (largely due to the million dollar prize associated with its proof), so a book exclusively on such a topic probably wouldn't interest too many people. What makes this book interesting, at least to me, is the Math History covered in it. In particular, the author goes into great depth into the personality and character of each of the principle figures in this book: the anecdote regarding Hilbert's torn pants, Gauss's (perhaps justified) arrogance, and Riemann's quiet nature. All of these aspects of the book add a lot more depth to the people behind this problem, and I find that to be far more valuable, as a mathematician, than yet another essay on the Riemann Hypothesis.

    I agree with the reviewer's sentiment that the book is well written, and it is very enjoyable. The author writes in a very audience-centric fashion, even going as far to discuss the "scaffolding" of the book itself (all of the "hard math" stuff is found in odd chapters, the author had debated putting this information in only the "prime" chapters, but then said "there is such a thing as being too cute.")

    Anywho, if you have a math friend you need to buy a gift for, definitely consider this book.

    --
    I have discovered a truly remarkable sig which this margin is too small to contain.
    1. Re:Why I believe this book to be of interest. by stockrecvbox · · Score: 1

      The book is good, your sig is also cute :)

    2. Re:Why I believe this book to be of interest. by stromthurman · · Score: 1

      Thanks, I'd seen many that pointed out slashdot's 120 character limit on sigs, and I thought "Hmm, how can I take that idea, and nerd it up." This is what I came up with ;)

      --
      I have discovered a truly remarkable sig which this margin is too small to contain.
  27. John Derbyshire by JeffWhitledge · · Score: 2, Informative

    Those interested in his other writings should check out John Derbyshire's homepage.

    --
    These comments do express the opinions of my employers, and, personally, I think they're complete rubbish.
  28. Re:uh... by 0racle · · Score: 1

    Oh excuse me
    Warning: The following post requires Humour 2.1 or higher

    Was that review English?

    --
    "I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
  29. Brock is insane by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Brock has a sanity problem. He was so far one way, and all of a sudden he is so far the other. Here's a clue: he's blinded by the left for the time being. He has knowingly published false information in his books, especially the most recent one which brands any media that is not far left as Republican-controlled.

    He'll do this for a few more years, and then, in a fashion like manic-depression he'll waffle to the right again.

    " am not of the opinion that anyone who disagrees with me is just spreading proaganda " Yet, that is exactly how you came across. Vicious opinion by Brock is "truth", but vicious opinion by NR is "propaganda". You have once again made use of the real definition of the word "propaganda": information that I do not agree with.

    1. Re:Brock is insane by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read any article out of Harpers or the Atlantic Monthly and then read one out of the National Review. Which one is based on rational thought? The "liberal" ones.. and NPR News? Liberal or just honest?

  30. Seriously: what else would you have liked instead? by elgatozorbas · · Score: 1

    ... if you don't know (immediately), how can you expect them to know?

    Z

  31. OT: your sig by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The arrogance of your comment was compounded by the atrocious spelling.

  32. Trolls are conservative? by AtariAmarok · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Trolls are conservative? That must explain why the cave troll from Lord of the Rings looked a lot like Alexander Haig.

    I'm in charge in Moria!!

    --
    Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
  33. Rubbish? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Which ones specifically are rubbish? I checked a few of his opinions, and they were quite well rooted in fact.

    1. Re:Rubbish? by JeffWhitledge · · Score: 1

      No my comments are rubbish. Derbyshire's are gold. That was just my sig.

      --
      These comments do express the opinions of my employers, and, personally, I think they're complete rubbish.
  34. MOD PARENT UP! by GuyMannDude · · Score: 4, Insightful

    People get those gifts because they try. They don't understand math at all, but they know that you do "something mathy".

    Exactly right. They are trying to get you something that they think you might like even though they don't know very much about math. Instead of the grandparent getting all hot under the collar that his family and friends dare insult his grant intellect by purchasing him a "Math for Dummies" book (as he seems to think this historical work is), he should feel gratified to know that he family cares enough about him to actually put forth some effort to getting something that attempts to match his interests. There are lots of people who simply buy generic gifts for family like socks or shit like that. Isn't this book a lot better than a gift like that?

    Reading the grandparents rant, I was reminded of an article in The Onion awhile back about some film snob getting all upset because his family -- damn their incompetance! -- dared buy him the widescreen edition of one of the Matrix sequels when he actually wanted the letterboxed edition (opportunity for karma whoring here if someone can link to it). For chrissake, your family and friends are trying their goddamned best and you get your panties in a bunch over details? That's so incredibly childlike, I can hardly believe this above "rant". Christmas isn't really about getting exactly what you want -- at least once you're an adult it's not. Christmas is just an opportunity to get together with loved ones and exchange gifts as a token of affection. It doesn't have to be the "perfect gift"; as long as it's somewhere in the ballpark you should feel happy that your family is at least aware of your interests.

    GMD

    1. Re:MOD PARENT UP! by bartash · · Score: 1

      The onion piece is only for 'premium' readers but I found it cached here.

      --
      Read Epic the first RPG novel.
    2. Re:MOD PARENT UP! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      -- dared buy him the widescreen edition of one of the Matrix sequels when he actually wanted the letterboxed edition (

      Um... just FYI... widescreen edition and the letterboxed edition are the same thing. :)

    3. Re:MOD PARENT UP! by FlynnMP3 · · Score: 1

      Um..just FYI... widescreen edition and the letterboxed edition are the same thing. :)

      While it certainly is possible that it could mean the same thing, I highly doubt it. The devil is in the details. Obswerve...

      1) Widescreen is a horizontally compressed image that when played back is stretched horizontally to restore the aspect ratio of the encoded source. Think tall skinny circle recorded on the DVD and normal round circle when played. Hence the black bars at the top and bottom when played on a 4:3 TV. There is no video signal in those regions but the playback device puts the black bars in to have the appropriate vsynch signals and such.

      2) Letterbox does not compress the source material at all. What it does do is put the black bars on the top and bottom of the picture to fake widescreen aspect ratio and that is recorded on the DVD that way. Think a fully round circle with the top and bottom clipped off.

      There are other details, as explained here http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/content.php?contentid=29 6 and while the terms can and are used interchangably, there are still some mastering studios and marketdroids that still screw it up. This was probably what this video geek's concern was.

      -FlynnMP3

  35. Bourbaki very interesting by elgatozorbas · · Score: 1

    BTW, this Bourbaki guy is very interesting. Especially since he is not a real person. It was just a joke invented by a group of famous mathematicians. Under this name they wrote a number of very good books on methematics. A Wikipedia link.

    Z

  36. Same subject matter by Gigs · · Score: 1
    1. Re:Same subject matter by hnoon · · Score: 1

      Totally irrelevant... A friend of mentioned that GEB was the most unread book in America. I doubt there is any actual evidence to support that but after finishing it I can understand why he thought so. It is really difficult to keep going unless you are genuinely interested in the subject.

  37. Big-time homophobe/ bigot... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    read the link in the parent's post, then go to his website and read a few of his editorials... He's more concerned about men being "manly" than most straight men I know. Is he hiding something about himself?

  38. This clears some things up. . . by basso · · Score: 1

    I read this book about six months ago and greatly enjoyed it -- it's one of the best 'popular' explanations of a math topic I can recall.

    And it was the only time I'd heard of John Derbyshire. When I saw a political blogger slag him off a couple of weeks ago, I thought "this can't be the same guy who wrote the Riemann book!"

    Maybe I should get out more. . .

  39. prime chapters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    whats special about the prime chapters of the book?

  40. In his own words by JeffWhitledge · · Score: 2, Informative

    Why not cite his own explaination of his homophobia?

    --
    These comments do express the opinions of my employers, and, personally, I think they're complete rubbish.
    1. Re:In his own words by dvdeug · · Score: 1

      Why not cite his own explaination of his homophobia?

      The repeated use of the phrase "homo-facists" proves that (a) he's not the tolerant, mild homophobe he claims to be, and (b) he's entirely right about the extremes not liking the middle. It's much easier to make his attack against "homo-facists" then tolerant, mild, homosexuals.

  41. ...and karma is even better! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just what I said

  42. Poincare Conjecture? by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1
    If we are lucky (hint, hint, JD) perhaps Derbyshire's next book will cover the newly-proven Poincare Conjecture

    The lucky part about that would be that someone had finally proved it, and that a consensus of mathematicians accepted the proof. To the best of my knowledge, the current state is that one man claims to have proved it but that the verdict's still out.

    --
    Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  43. Real Definition of propaganda by bobalu · · Score: 1

    "n.
    1.The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.

    2. Material disseminated by the advocates or opponents of a doctrine or cause: wartime propaganda. "

    Seems the usage was correct.

    --
    The revolution will NOT be televised.
  44. Makes as much sense as.... by AtariAmarok · · Score: 1
    "He's more concerned about men being "manly" than most straight men I know. Is he hiding something about himself?"

    Claiming that anti-homosexual bigots are really secretly homosexuals makes as much sense as claiming that anti-African-American bigots are secretly Black. Tell that to Jesse Helms or Robert Byrd.

    --
    Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
    1. Re:Makes as much sense as.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, it does, if you don't look at it literally. I would wager that most "extreme" rascists are insecure about their own place in society. In the early 20th century, blacks treated the Jewish in much the same way that us whites treated the blacks. I think there's something going on with the ultra-manly stereotype some people tend to propagate about themselves as well.

  45. Derbyshire - Right Wing Bigot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    His book might be good but make no mistake about it, John Derbyshire is a creepy right-wing bigot.

    You can read his weird daily posts over at National Review's blog The Corner.

    Check out this article here where he hints at the long standing right-wing fantasy that white caucsians are, in fact, smarter than the rest of the world.

    There is much more where that came from. Feel free to read his archive here.

  46. Insult to conservatives by alienmole · · Score: 1

    If I were a conservative, I wouldn't want Derbyshire's misogyny and homophobia associated with my beliefs. There are good conservative values, but those aren't among them.

    In any case, when I read Derbyshire's weak attempts at arguments to support his prejudices, I find it difficult to imagine he could write anything worth reading. At least my prejudices operate on the individual level, rather than condemning an entire gender. It doesn't surprise me to read that he's not very good at math; he's not very good at logical argument, objectivity, or understanding of the human condition. He's taken a personal psychological hangup and dressed it up as though it were a political position.

  47. Christmas Math book gifts by technoCon · · Score: 1

    I happen to have studied enough mathematics for MSU to grant me a master's degree and I didn't find Derb's book the equivalent of "Shakespeare for Dummies."

    It was more like the nuts and bolts of how the Bard lived while he was writing Hamlet and how various folks who have come after have interpreted the parts.

    To be quite honest, after doing all those fun maths in school, my career has generally involved little more than algebra. It was a rare pleasure to solve an order 360 polynomial using a secant method gradient descent. Then, sadly, to hand the algorithm to another guy to code up. Something my high school senior daughter did last year in AP Calc.

    Thus the popular math book provides a math-mitty (as in Walter) to remember when he ran with the big dogs.

    To anyone familiar with calc and number theory, the notion of bringing the two together is a mind-boggling coolness. When mathematicians see such things the response is akin to worship.

  48. pie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    mmmm pie

  49. The odds are against such a pair existing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    In fact the odds are close to 60% against.

    Consider a set of size n (with n fairly large) and a random function f from that set back to itself. How many pairs (x,y) are there with f(x)=y and f(y)=x?

    Well the number of pairs in the set is n*(n-1)/2 which is approximately n^2/2. Each pair has odds 1/n^2 of satisfying the condition. It turns out that pairs are not perfectly independent in satisfying/not satisfying (if (x,y) satisfies the condition then (x,z) cannot for any other z), but in a detailed analysis it is close enough to independent for what I'm going to say next to still be true.

    The situation that we have here is that we are observing a large number of unlikely possible events, with a ratio between the number and the probability indicating that we expect to see a fixed amount on average (in our case 0.5 since the number of pairs is n^2/2 and the probability of a given pair satisfying our condition is 1/n^2). How many do we deserve? Assuming that the number is large, probability says that the distribution that we see is well-approximated by the Poisson Distribution, which says that the odds of seeing k occurances is exp(-lambda)*lambda^k/k! with lambda being the expected number of occurances.

    Therefore the odds of our seeing 0 occurances are exp(-0.5)*0.5^0/0! = 0.60653065971263... - hence my claim that they are 60% against.

  50. [Re: Douglas Adams] Base/finger fallacy by TheBean · · Score: 1

    If you had only one finger, in which number
    system would you naturally count?

    The answer is: base 2. (Think: computer)

    Given N fingers, the "natural" number system is
    base N+1, not N.

    1. Re:[Re: Douglas Adams] Base/finger fallacy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      How many fingers does a normal human have?

      What base is the 'natural' human number system?

    2. Re:[Re: Douglas Adams] Base/finger fallacy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, if one finger can represent two states, for base two. Ten fingers can represent 2^10 states, for base 1024. Is the "natural" number system really base 1024?

      I think I'll stick to base 10 for now...

  51. Handguns DO stop trucks by eseiat · · Score: 1

    Hasn't the genius of John Woo taught us all that single bullets can stop freightliners in their tracks?

    1. Re:Handguns DO stop trucks by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      Only if you hit it very precisely, and wait for the radiator to drain and the engine to sieze (for some reason, in the movies, this always happens instantly- where in my mind even if you hit a pipe at the bottom of the radiator, I think the truck could probably continue for a mile or two before the heat got to it).

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    2. Re:Handguns DO stop trucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      Not exactly, kiddies :

      The .357 magnum was developed for the purpose of stopping a vehicle by breaking the engine block and consequent rapid loss of oil pressure.

      So : a handgun, if it is the correct gun, WILL stop a truck or any other non-armored vehicle.

      Now go back to your silly video games, kiddies.

    3. Re:Handguns DO stop trucks by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      Ok- I stand corrected- some handguns DO have this much stopping power- a sudden loss of oil pressure through a cracked engine block will certainly stop just about anything more modern than a WWII Ford flathead.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
  52. Prime Obsession Not Really Recommended by Schwarzchild · · Score: 1

    His writing style is horrible. He needs an editor desperately. Prime Obsession does contain some interesting mathematical tidbits and some interesting historical anecdotes but overall it's just a really dull read.

    --

    "sweet dreams are made of this..."

  53. You can help prove Riemann's hypothesis by kpearson · · Score: 1

    While you are reading this book, put your computer to work helping to prove the hypothesis in the Zetagrid project (see my short summary of the project here). If your computer can run Java applications, it can run the small ZetaGrid client. In the 3.3 years the project has run, participants have discovered almost 1 trillion "nontrivial zeros of the Riemann zeta function."

    1. Re:You can help prove Riemann's hypothesis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      isn't the idea of that to disprove it... you can't prove it by calculating zero's forever...

    2. Re:You can help prove Riemann's hypothesis by tadmas · · Score: 1
      put your computer to work helping to prove the hypothesis in the Zetagrid project

      Actually, it doesn't prove anything. It just gives empirical evidence that the Hypothesis is probably right. Even calculating 100 trillion zeros wouldn't prove it since you wouldn't know if #105,928,343,784 is on the line or not. It would be a good guess that it's on the line, but it would be just that: a guess.

      Good example: Gauss developed a function called a "logarithmic integral" that estimates the number of primes up to a certain number (or the density of primes, depending on how you look at it). For relatively small n, the logarithmic integral is a slight overestimate... and AFAIK all calculations so far have found it to be an overestimate... but it has actually been proven that it oscillates between an under- and over-estimate infinitely often. If we just relied on brute force calculation, we'd be wrong.

      Not to say the project isn't interesting, but I fail to see the utility in it.

  54. Thurston Geometrization Conjecture by Schwarzchild · · Score: 1

    You are talking about Perelman who seems to have given an outline of a proof of the Thurston Geometrization Conjecture which, I think, contains the Poincaré Conjecture as a special case. So he has allegedly proved something much more general than Poincaré.

    --

    "sweet dreams are made of this..."

    1. Re:Thurston Geometrization Conjecture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, I assume that he is talking about De Branges at Purdue.

  55. Sounds like he just needs a good ass pounding... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People like him do make me a little sick to my stomach... but I'll still read his book. I'll buy it used or borrow it from the library.

  56. ISBN numbers are fascinating by emplynx · · Score: 1

    The modular division used to make a check digit on the end of ISBN numbers is fascinating. I learned all about it in my number theory class I took last fall. I would explain it here, but...

    ...I don't really remember how it works.

    Sorry.

    --
    -Tim
  57. non-elite ballet classes? by bobalu · · Score: 1

    Interesting.... wonder if they still use French to describe the moves.

    Also good of him to appreciate the very urban use of "Word!" as a greeting. "datanauts" are always cooler when they're into 20 yr old black expressions.

    --
    The revolution will NOT be televised.
  58. Disgusting bigot. by Grendel+Drago · · Score: 1

    I noticed the book sitting on the downstairs couch, and gave it a read. Personally, once I realized that the Derbyshire who wrote the book was, indeed, the Derbyshire of Andrew Sullivan's Derbyshire Award, I was impressed at the lack of disgusting bigotry in the book. He doesn't even take a single cheap shot at Alan Turing.

    Now there's a man who knows how to separate his two personas.

    --grendel drago

    --
    Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
    1. Re:Disgusting bigot. by DesScorp · · Score: 1

      Andrew Sullivan is a great writer, but face it, he's a whiny bitch. He's tolerant of all forms of opinion except those that oppose homosexuality, even if they just go beyond a visceral dislike of gay sex.

      Besides, if you pick and choose your books/art/music based on a bizarre litmus test (with every subject having to meet every thing on your checklist), pretty soon, you're going to be awfully bored and empty.

      --
      Life is hard, and the world is cruel
    2. Re:Disgusting bigot. by readin · · Score: 1

      Why would you expect him to take a cheap shot at Alan Turing? I've been a fan of the Mr. Derbyshire's writing for a few years and I haven't seen him take many cheap shots at anyone. I don't agree with all of his opinions, particularly some of those he admits are not considered proper by most people, but he seems honest about his reasons for them and there seems to be no hint of hatred behind them. Whatever his beliefs, he writes like a gentleman and shows sympathy for people of all races and sexual orientation. Instead of worrying about non-existent cheap shots at Alan Turing, you should be more concerned about cheap shots at John Derbyshire.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    3. Re:Disgusting bigot. by jkauzlar · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I expected a cheat shot from Derbyshire, but that I was impressed by the "nice" shot. Which is not to say I don't agree that Derbyshire hasn't given "cheap shots" in the past to those who don't deserve it. I was somewhat alarmed by some of what JD has said in his editorials esp. concerning homosexuality and may have considered them "cheap shots" myself at the time. I think that if I were to be in full support of Derbyshire's past writing, I would wish him to "take back" some of what he has said.

  59. Another Coward by DesScorp · · Score: 1

    Nice to see you ripping him from behind a AC post. Derb's one of the more entertaining writers around these days, and it's refreshing to find someone with multiple interests in such divergent fields.

    But of course, he's on the other side of the political spectrum from you, Mr. Coward, so none of that matters. Tell me, what makes him a "creepy bigot", Mr. Coward? Is it that he opposes gay marriage? So do I, comrade. Better pencil me in for the next re-education camp. Or maybe it's his belief that perhaps we should be focusing more on Arabic and Muslim suspects at airports than old ladies? Well, count me in on this one too. God, I'm so insensitive. Maybe you're referring to his criticism of the left for their undying support of terrorists like Yassar Arafat while considering Israel the focus of evil in the Middle East? Once again, I'm with the creepy right-wingers on this one. See, I agree that these people are old fashioned Jew-Haters, wrapped in a respectable leftist cloak of political correctness. Anti-Semitism is so passe anyway, eh?

    Slashdot NEEDS a little more balance in its political coverage.

    --
    Life is hard, and the world is cruel
    1. Re:Another Coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's not calling YOU creepy, dipshit. Derbyshire really IS a creepy right-winger. His editorials throw out nasty insults at the Democratic party with no logical bases and baseless arguments against gay marriage. Pretty annoying, if actually KNOW a gay person, which most conservatives probably don't (I know you'll probably claim to have met one once, I'm sure).

    2. Re:Another Coward by DesScorp · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      " He's not calling YOU creepy, dipshit"

      I don't particularly care. He's still deserving of scorn. And as long as we're in preschool name calling mode here, fuck you too, you cock-gobbling manbitch. (Ha! I made a funny!)

      "His editorials throw out nasty insults at the Democratic party with no logical bases and baseless arguments against gay marriage."

      Oh, horseshit. All politics is opinion, and Derb's opinions have a more reasoned basis than most. You just don't like his opinions.

      "Pretty annoying, if actually KNOW a gay person, which most conservatives probably don't (I know you'll probably claim to have met one once, I'm sure)."

      My God, you can't really be this ignorant, can you Mr. Coward? Everyone knows gay men and women, closeted and uncloseted. And here's a 'Revelation' for you, Mr. Coward (It's a Biblical reference! Just to piss you off! Ha!); gays aren't the single-minded, march in lockstep lemmings you seem to think they are. So stop being so fucking offended.

      Have a nice day :-)

      --
      Life is hard, and the world is cruel
    3. Re:Another Coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      "All politics is opinion..."

      Apparently this is what Republicans believe that has caused so many problems during so many of their administrations. I'm not sure a liberal could have said this better than you have...

  60. Why I believe this sig to be of interest. by antispam_ben · · Score: 1

    Thanks, I'd seen many that pointed out slashdot's 120 character limit on sigs, and I thought "Hmm, how can I take that idea, and nerd it up." This is what I came up with ;)

    Your sig is a remarkably amusing send-up of a tantializingly short note by a famous mathematician concerning one of the major mathematics problems of all time, whereas my sig just makes a pun on the simple physics equation "f = ma" and a quote from an old SF movie.

    Surely your karma will soon exceed mine by a long shot. I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy...{sorry, another old movie quote}

    --
    Tag lost or not installed.
    1. Re:Why I believe this sig to be of interest. by stromthurman · · Score: 1

      Haha, well, the two ideas are very similar, just a difference in interests I suspect ;) Math dominates almost every aspect of my life, thus: a math based sig. I'm not suggesting that Star Wars dominates every aspect of your life, but I would wager it's at least an enjoyable hobby for you, heh.

      --
      I have discovered a truly remarkable sig which this margin is too small to contain.
  61. Re:Chomsky gets away with it. by DesScorp · · Score: 1

    Chomsky DOES get away with it...the fact that you've reasonably pointed this out, and got an absolute karma-reaming proves that Chomsky would love this place. The way things are going, you have to wonder how long it is until Democratic Underground and Slashdot start some sort of editorial collaboration.

    --
    Life is hard, and the world is cruel
  62. Right answer, wrong problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're thinking of the hat-check problem. That is the question of what the odds are of a bijection from a set back to itself having an element mapping to itself. That is a different problem.

    First the minor quibble: we don't know that it is a bijection (well it might be, but I don't know that). This is a quibble though, because for bijections and regular functions the answer turns out to be the same (but the convergence to that answer is different).

    Now the major one, here we are looking for 2 distinct elements, one of which maps to the other and the other of which maps to the first. That is a more complex arrangement, and significantly reduces the odds.

    1. Re:Right answer, wrong problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now the major one, here we are looking for 2 distinct elements, one of which maps to the other and the other of which maps to the first. That is a more complex arrangement,

      You're right I computed the wrong thing. I computed the probability that there exists x such that f(x)=x, which is 1-1/e. This guy is asking for x such that f(f(x)) = x.

      and significantly reduces the odds.

      Hmm no, if f(x)=x then f(f(x))=x, so the odds can only be larger.

      The revised probability of success is 1-1/e+1/e*(1-1/sqrt(e)) = 77.68698%

      If you can't derive it then write a computer program to do a simulation with f:{1..N}->{1..N} for some large N (being our approximation to 2^128).

    2. Re:Right answer, wrong problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *Create two different files*

      Damn I missed that. Then the probability of success is simply 1-1/sqrt(e) = 39.3469%

  63. Timothy by DesScorp · · Score: 1

    If you're going to refer to Derb as a "Propogandist", then please have the courtesy to apply the same standards to liberal and leftist writers. If you reference Michael Kinsley or Noam Chomsky, please refer to them as propogandists as well.

    Derb writes for National Review. It's a conservative opinion magazine. Does that make it propoganda? Then, is The New Republic or Slate propoganda as well?

    So, is all political opinion propoganda then? Or just right-wing political opinion?

    --
    Life is hard, and the world is cruel
  64. I agree with your post in one sense.. by jkauzlar · · Score: 1
    That was one thing which I noticed about the book after learning of Derbyshire's career with the National Review... he was actually very gentle in his description of Alan Turing and said (which I paraphrase) that the people of England were not very accepting of the homosexual lifestyle (Turing killed himself not long after he was arrested for homosexuality.. I don't know the details), the statement which I viewed as a touch of sensitivity on JD's part.

    Anyway, Derbyshire's opinions can be annoying if you're a democrat (and I am, BTW), but he's generally an entertaining writer, on whichever topic he chooses to write about, and he has a math puzzle at the end of each of his Diary entries (see his website)!

    I say, if you're worried about supporting Derbyshire's opinions by way of buying his book, keep in mind who he writes for in his editorials (generally conservatives who already agree with him) and remember he's getting a paycheck as well. The Derbyshire I know from Prime Obsession may be the 'real' Derbyshire :) This theory reminds me of a Kurt Vonnegut book called 'Mother Night,' where the main character becomes a fierce Nazi propagandist (not that I in any way would compare Republicans with Nazis; the ideas which I'm relating are the only similarity) purely for professional reasons. I'm assuming he's really conservative, but I'll bet he could write better opinion peices if he wrote for other than the National Review...

  65. Unhappy Holidays! by droleary · · Score: 1

    There are lots of people who simply buy generic gifts for family like socks or shit like that. Isn't this book a lot better than a gift like that?

    No. There are a lot of people who like to say "it's the thought that counts", but what poor gifts show is a lack of real consideration. Think about it. Do I really show I'm thoughtful if I get someone a shitty MP3 player because I heard they like music? Or rather do I show that I simply can't grok their specialized needs, and instead of admitting that their devotion to music is so far beyond my grasp that I have no better choice but to give them cash (or some generic gift that everyone needs)? Personally, I prefer to be surrounded by friends with abilities I can't touch in fields of expertise I barely know. None of that "I know you're a nurse, so I got you some cotton balls because that's the limit of my ability to understand nursing" bullshit. Nobody should pretend to know what the other needs in their specialty. That's the thought that really counts.

    Christmas is just an opportunity to get together with loved ones and exchange gifts as a token of affection. It doesn't have to be the "perfect gift"; as long as it's somewhere in the ballpark you should feel happy that your family is at least aware of your interests.

    Honestly, I've never felt that giving gifts of any kind showed real interest. I've always been happy with just the "get together" part. I'll often pay for the meal (or whatever), but I'm unlikely to show up with something hastily bought and pointlessly wrapped. And nothing I ever give comes with the assumption of an "exchange". I think it's childish to keep track of personal relationships based on who owes who what "gift".

  66. political polemics aside... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not too surprising that his political views aren't included in this book, seeing as how he's not a lefty.

    If he were, of course, they'd have to change it to fiction.

  67. Your equivalence is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The task specified different files. So you're looking for an element in the kernel of f^2 that is not in the kernel of f.

    This matters because there are about 38% odds that f^2 has a non-empty kernel, but all elements of it are in the kernel of f.

    1. Re:Your equivalence is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      kernel of f = {x | f(x)=0}
      kernel of f^2 = {x | f(f(x))=0}

      Not quite what you need. Don't repeat you parent's failed attempt at sounding knowledgeable.

  68. nobody reads berlinski? by eokyere · · Score: 1

    interesting, such a long thread and no mention of david berlinski... before i got to Hofstadter's GEB, I went through 3 berlinki books that were just as great... a tour of the calculus, the advent of the algorithm and newton's gift

  69. FREE! by wviperw · · Score: 2, Informative

    Can't believe nobody has mentioned this yet (maybe they have?), but this book (I think it is the same book) can be read for free online at the National Academies Press
    I've started it and it is very good so far. Haven't had time to get past the first few chapters unfortunately.

    --
    Nothing disturbs me more than blind loyalism towards some unrealistic and over-idealistic notion of one's nationality.
    1. Re:FREE! by wintermute42 · · Score: 1

      I'm glad to see this, since I have not wish to put a dime of my money in the pocket of a National Review right wing fanatic.

  70. Excellent Book by readin · · Score: 1

    I've read most of the book even though I don't normally read math books. I picked up this one because I was familiar with the author's political commentary and I knew his writing was easy to follow and pleasantly written.

    Most of the book is pretty easy to follow, but there are some concepts near the end that are difficult to wrap your mind around even if you are able to follow the individual steps (which the author makes it easy to do).

    --
    I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
  71. I have no litmus test. by Grendel+Drago · · Score: 1

    I think you may have misread me; I didn't stop reading the book when I realized who he was, though I felt a strange cloud of duality overhanging the whole thing. I thoroughly enjoyed the book, and I found the part about the decimation of the Gottingen mathematics department in the early 1930s (a legacy handed down from Gauss, etc., to Hilbert, who watched it die), I was truly touched.

    And yeah, Andrew Sullivan is a bit of a tool sometimes. I read his blog, sure, but I read Little Green Footballs, Ted Rall's column, ESR's blog and This Modern World as well.

    --grendel drago

    --
    Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
  72. Turing's end. by Grendel+Drago · · Score: 1

    I didn't actually purchase the book; my father did, possibly from the discount rack.

    Turing's death was indeed tragic. His house was broken into, he reported the crime, his homosexuality was discovered, he offered no defense, believing that he had done nothing wrong. He was offered a choice between prison and estrogen shots. After a year or so on the drugs (which were not without their side effects), he killed himself.

    The story infuriates me every time I tell it. A brilliant man, to whom we all owe a debt of gratitude for founding our field, struck down in the middle of his productive years by stupid bigotry. What a waste.

    --grendel drago

    --
    Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
  73. Feynman by roie_m · · Score: 1

    Actually, it was even more stupid: The book was asking what the total temperature was of all the stars. Averaging temperatures at least makes some kind of sense, but you won't convince me that two people put together in a room have a temperature of 72 degres Celsius.

  74. suspects-focusing wisdom... by GozzoMan · · Score: 1
    Or maybe it's his belief that perhaps we should be focusing more on Arabic and Muslim suspects at airports than old ladies? Well, count me in on this one too.
    Fascinating... but how about old Muslim ladies?
    You know, old ladies don't seem to be prime with Muslim to me...

    (Yes, I'm raping the term, but comedy has its needings, folks...)
  75. just skimmed that ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    anyway i was at the bookshop and found this nice
    book "A new kind of science" by wolfram.
    it's about patterns ...
    anyway check it out at:
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/- /1579 550088/002-3007275-6926447?v=glance
    -
    i think there we have a future milionair and he's
    def. on the right path to proof that riemann funny
    theorem. we have to stop looking "inside" a
    system for a solution, e.g with math, but look at
    the pattern. how we count. the keywoard is
    prolly "nested".

  76. Re:uh... by tanguyr · · Score: 1

    Irony is a virus, and lots of people seem to have nortonized.

    --
    #!/usr/bin/english
  77. MOD PARENT UP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why didn't anybody else notice this?>?!?!?

  78. Re:Chomsky gets away with it. by srcosmo · · Score: 1
    Far be it from me to criticise slashdotters, but you have a point. I think we've all seen many a hare-brained tinfoil-hat conspiracy post modded up to +5, Insightful.

    --
    free speach
    Did you mean: free speech
  79. Men of Mathematics by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1
    Men of Mathematics by E.T.Bell, and other books.

    The History of Pi by Petr Beckman.

    --
    Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate