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Breaking Away from Programming?
Captain Numerica asks: "I've been working as a programmer since I graduated from high school. I've been paying my own way through college, and now I'm about to graduate with a BS in Physics. I plan on continuing my studies to a PhD in Physics, but first I need to get on my feet financially, as a fellowship/TA position isn't yet sufficient for the debt I've accumulated in my more irresponsible years. I'm leaving my university with a great deal of programming experience -- a fact that I might want to advertise to potential employers. However, at the same time I don't want to become type-casted as just a programmer, as my real skills involve analytical and experimental physics. Has anyone working as a research engineer/scientist come out of college under similar circumstances?" For those of you with significant programming skills, but the wish to focus in areas more suitable to your education, how did you avoid falling into the Programmer IT Trap?
"I plan on continuing my studies to a PhD in Physics, but first I need to get on my feet financially"
You should concentrate on getting your PhD first, even if that mean more debts, because having a PhD--especially in Physics but that doesn't really matter--you will be able to negotiate much higher rates than people with the same or better skills but with lower degrees. It will also mean that your work will most likely be more research-related, which is much more rewarding and indeed important than another so called Real World(TM) cubicle monkey. So don't even think about it, get your PhD first and then start getting some Real Money.(TM) I wish you the best luck.
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
1) - Good paycheck! I was making more than enough to survive and pay off debt.
2) - Opportunity to build your resume for grad school. (all of the people I worked with went to Tier 1 schools when they left)
3) - Ability to do research in your spare time. Researchers are always willing to accept free labor
4) - Ability to take classes for free. (or at signifigant discount)
5) - Chance to go to conferences and present research (ie, make a name for yourself)
I can think of a few more but I actually have to get to work now. Give me an email if you want some specific suggestions and places I personally know of.
MR
--Keeping the flame wars alive, one post at a time
Apply for research positions in companies, and not for development ones. At least where I work, the two are clearly distinct. Product research is done by HW&SW researchers, and generally requires a Masters or PhD. These people make patents, algorithms, or fairly raw prototypes. Product developement is done by HW&SW developers, and generally requires a degree. These people develop products for sale, and sometimes productize the ideas that come from research. If you are looking to go back to academic research, then the research angle is the one to pursue. Development (and I speak as a developer) is always same old same old, even when it's a new product, since it's all about "the process". Following the process, renewing the process, refining the process, documenting the process, auditing the process, ignoring the process when it comes to crunch time, .... blech.
If you feel the burnout starting to set in, you might take the year off and teach private school. They can't get enough physics teachers and you would have very little trouble finding work for a year or so.
If you are looking for something longer term, many financial organizations higher physicists for their problem solving skills as stock market analysts. PhD's are often highly desired for those positions, but not required.
But if all else fails, work is work - suck it up and do what you can until something better comes along. Even if it is programming.
Given that you said you are soon to graduate, just remember that specifically what you do next in your career will not necessarily determine where you end up down the road. Don't lose sight of the fact that you have your whole life ahead of you. Most people coming right out of college are programmed (pun intended) to try to land the perfect, career-launching job. While this is the best case scenario, your best bet is to approach your career life as a realist.
Certainly don't sell yourself short, just don't expect to land the perfect, high-paying, life-fulfilling job right out of college. Use this time to try to realistically focus on where you want to end up, and let it happen. Obviously your milage may vary, and this depends on many factors: Education, experience, region, specific field, economy, etc.
Also, don't lock yourself into one specific geographical region unless it is absolutely important to you. You have the most flexibility at your stage in life than at any other time, so if the job market in your area seems bleak, by all means, branch out and see what's available in other regions.
My mom always said, "Jim, you're 1 in a million." Given the current population, there are 7000 of me. God help us all!
Otherwise, people fall into the "hammer is the only tool" trap, where every problem becomes a nail, or rather, an excel spreadsheet.
Do not take on more debt if you can avoid it! Get a job for a couple of years to pay down existing debt and maybe save a little in preparation for grad school.
Caveat: Don't expect to ever make lots of money as a research scientist.
I'd have to agree that the education is primo. However, I am under the impression it may be best to work on your masters while being employed. Find a school where you want to study, and look for a marginally affiliated programming job while finishing up. From my experience, most companies will pay for masters, but not all for your Ph.D. And what better way to alleviate debt by not adding more debt (tuition)?
Pay some debts, then go full bore for the Ph.D. in grad school.
... if you are absolutely, positively sure that physics research is what you want to do with your life. Your debts, if they're student loans, can be deferred while you're in grad school. (And if they're not student loans, then get all the loans you can and put them toward paying down your other debts -- 3% student loan interest beats 15% credit card interest any day of the week.) In the long run, you'll come out ahead, financially, professionally, and personally.
OTOH, if you're not absolutely, positively sure, then just get a job and work hard and make as much money as you can for a while, and then after a few years, when you've paid down your debts and hopefully have some money in the bank, you can decide if you really want to commit yourself full-time to research.
In any case, don't worry about being typecast, IMO. Grad school admission committees aren't going to look at your work history and say, "Oh, this guy's just a programmer, we can't possibly teach him physics." If anything, they'll be more impressed by a wide variety of experience -- not to mention that there is a desperate need, in just about every scientific field, for researchers who also know how to program. And once you have your Ph.D., nobody cares what you did for a living beforehand. One of my best professors put himself through school, from day one as a freshman to the day he got his doctorate, as a short-order cook. Nobody in the department ever asked him to fry up some bacon and eggs.
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
He got a pHD in nuclear physics, which he obtained by doing an experiment that involved extensive graphics programming on a SGI computer.
Another friend working at $AVIONICS_COMPANY told him that they're looking for a guy with exactly his experience with SGI computers...
So he applies for the job, only to have it rejected because he's "overqualified" (that pHD shure must have shocked the socks off the HR drone who read it)...
Fortunately, some pushing was done and he has got the job...
I work for the government in a military research lab doing cool research. Currently I make good money and the government pays for my school. My thesis is government related so I can do thesis work on the clock and I have an entire army of PhD's to help me out. So I recommend applying to Grad school (close to a government lab) then looking for a job/co-op position that will help pay for school. For the first two quarters of my MS degree I was making a living from a Teaching Assitantship and it sucked. The downside to this approach is it takes forever to graduate and you can't pick your own research topic. I can only take a single class at a time because I am required to do some real work at work. The thing to remember is most of the leadership at government labs are looking to retire so they are looking for people to fill in the open positions and a Co-Op is a cheap way to test somebody. A Co-Op at a gov lab will get you thru school and might even get you a full time position in the end plus some good money. Good luck!
Have you ever worked with National Instruments' LabVIEW environment?
It's a little-known fact that LabVIEW has something like a 90+% marketshare in the realm of, well, I'm not sure what you'd call it: Engineering/Scientific-ish data gathering - the kinds of things that Engineers and "Scientists" do in their laboratories and out on the assembly line floor.
Anyway, if you search at monster.com, you'll see that there are often more hits on "LabVIEW" than there are on "MCSD" [Microsoft Certified Solutions Developer]:
So if you know LabVIEW, and you're pretty good at the physics/math/EE stuff, then you could do some fairly interesting work at a pretty good salary while you pay off your debts.Also, it's another little-known fact that National Instruments offers certifications in LabVIEW, so that you can earn yourself a little "diploma" which might open a few more doors:
I went through a similar thing when I went from the "Software Programing" side of IT Healthcare Software Engineering market, to the "Clinical Analyst" side of Healtcare.
Make sure you stress the other skills and abilities you have. If you want them to hire you for a reason/skill set/purpose other than programing, give them something to hire you for. Certainly don't leave out your programing skills, but put it on the backburner, make it your back up.
"Not only can I do all these great things, but if the situation calls I do have this reservouir of experince and skill to draw from."
I stressed in my interview process and resume that I was interested in moving toward an architech / project manager / analyst role and out of a programing role. I got hired in with those expectations but also with the mutual understanding that, if need be, I could sit down and bash out some needed code. Mostly though they are simply happy to have someone with the background and understanding who can speak intelligently on the topic.
The key is just to sell yourself for whatever skill and trait you want to be "bought" for.
Whatever you emphasize and put on the surface is what gets you hired. Employers don't scratch the surface until they're alread interested.
Brian
Physics is one of the hardest fields to find a job, especially if you only have a B.S. Most companies will prefer a Masters when it comes to the research positions. You have programming skills which you should advertise to no end to make yourself stand out. You should also consider getting an IT position or an entry level position as a research assistant in companies where aerospace is prominent part of their business. That way once you have your M.S. or Ph.D you can transfer within the company. Good luck.
-----
One is born into aristocracy, but mediocrity can only be achieved through hard work.
We can closely match the university pay and it'll be alot more fun I promise. You can start with the tivo integration project!
Are you kidding me?
This is the best [and frankly the only piece of concrete] advice the poor guy has gotten in this stupid thread.
Good grief. Some of you guys need to get a life.
Or maybe you're LabVIEW programmers and you don't want the dirty little secret to get out...
If you have any interest in any other field (like computers?), you might seriously want to consider changing fields for your Ph.D.
Since you're talking about a Ph.D, I'm guessing you're interested in a research job. Currently there's a vast oversupply of labor in the physics research labor pool. People do ten years of postdocs with little assurance of getting a job in the end.
I knew a physics Ph.D who finished and was so discouraged that he immediately started from scratch as a premed. He had talent and drive, too; it wasn't a case of him being marginal for the field.
Of course, I don't know if CS is the right field either; in five years, it'll have an oversupply as well. Your skillset might fit you well to do nanotech, so you might want to consider that.
Good research programmers are hard to find, and places like JPL, Los Alamos and Ames are pretty much always looking for people in this area. They're also on the bleeding edge of research and closely integrated with some of the best grad schools in the country.
Look for a job with a government agency that does both research and computer-based simulations. Examples: NOAA, NIST, NREL for unclassified work. Out here in Colorado a fair number of grad students similar to you go to Los Alamos for summer jobs.
is where the money is. C/C++ and the ability to change complex equations into reusable code will make you more money than you can ever dream of. If thats your thing.
- This and all my posts are public domain. I am a Physicist. I am not your Physicist. This is not Physically advice
If you focus on the broad picture, and keep your nose above the water, you'll find that the programming industry is pretty broad. Pick a subject you like and go for it. You will succeed because frankly, the CS/CE guys don't know a lot of things that you take for granted. (Hint: Math = Knowledge = Real Power)
I'd look for a job in a smaller company where you will work closely with management, rather than a large company where you work with other programmers. This will give you a lot more freedom to choose the tools you work with.
Also, try to get in on a startup. You won't make big bucks, but it should be enough to pay the bills, and it will look a lot more like the research you want to do. The only difference is the research is funded by suits that want money rather than bureaucrats that want credit.
Who know? Maybe after realizing how easy it is to make money with brains, you'll not want to go back to grad school? I sure didn't want to get caught up in academia after I discovered how much real research is being done outside the ivory towers.
The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
There are a few options to get paid and get a PhD at the same time. I would recommend looking at companies like General Atomics. I know that at GA, they employ a lot of computational physicists on their fusion project who are also faculty members at various schools around the world. It's possible to have both a job and a research project. On the other hand, there are probably a handfull of such opportunities worldwide.
/year /year /year
It makes no sense at all to go out and establish yourself with a company only to throw it away after a few years by leaving to work on a PhD.
Getting a PhD in Physics is not easy, and is definitely NOT something you can do while working a serious job.
In addition, you may want to look at what a PhD will get you. It's basically a membership card into the "physics club". This gets you access to government grants, academic institutions and conferences. These things are technically open to anyone... but you really need a PhD just to make the first cut where jobs and money are concerned.
The downside of a physics PhD is that it really doesn't guarantee you that much. You will have a job in physics should you want it. That job will likely pay slightly more than what you could make now. Look at it this way:
Research Fellowship: $15k to $30k
Postdoc position: $30k to $50k
Assistant Professor: $40k to $70k
It will take about 10 years to get to the Assistant Professor level should you decide to go the academic route. If you want to go industry, why get the PhD if you have the skills you want to use right now? I'm not sure the 6 years of time off are made up for by the added pay.
I find I have the opposite problem: I often get hired on as a programmer, but inevitably my job becomes sysadmin and tech support. "Oh, I know I should be talking to the other guy, but he doesn't know how to..." and so on. Eventually, I gave up and got a sysadmin job.
By a strange coincidence, now as a sysadmin I'm asked to fix things that the developers have written, and to write internal tools.
There are basically three different ways you can go to get out of programming:
My 4 cents,
--Bud
If you want to do something, you can do it, simple as that. Granted, the road to the objective isn't always paved with golden bricks. I would refer you though to this dictionary entry.
Personally my side-thing beyond my IT/Crypto experience is working on a book. You could be a bouncer, flip burgers, pump gas, or something more lucrative.
You're the only thing holding yourself back from whatever it is you want to do. Any hurdles in the way you either work on jumping over them, or you turn back, your choice.
All your base are belong to Google.
first off, thanks for the reply. i do appreciate it. i've worked quite a bit w/ labview in lab. its good software... and the hardware interfaces available are great.. (not to mention the FPGAs--of which i've only read about.. but it looks great on paper) but its not the best actor-oriented type programming environment i've come across though
Right - like every language/virtual machine/operating system/computer science paradigm, LabVIEW has its problems [chief of which is that it doesn't support pointers natively, although Refnums can help in that regard].
My point, though, is that if you really know the ins and outs of LabVIEW [and all its little bugs and gotchas], and especially if you took a month off, studied for some exams, and got some National Instruments certification, then you could find a halfway interesting engineering job that would allow you to make a pretty nice salary and do some work that might stimulate your intellect a little. Or at least keep it from atrophying, the way it would if you got a cubicle-monkey assigment writing databases filled with telephone numbers, license plates, birth dates, or whatnot.
People don't seem to realize that LabVIEW has a 90+% marketshare in the engineering/scientific-ish fields which makes M$FT's monopolies pale in comparison, so if you know LabVIEW, and if you know some math/EE/physics/compsci/stats, you will find a job.