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Fallout From Japanese Patent On Help Icon
MeridianOnTheLake writes "The Tokyo District Court has ordered the destruction of Ichitaro, a software product that is the only serious competitor in Japan to Microsoft Word, and has been on sale since 1985. The ruling is based on the claim of a competitor, Matsushita, that the use of a help icon to invoke a help function infinges on one of their patents. "We are a global enterprise and we are just following international practice to enforce our IP rights," Kitadeya (Matsushita) said." Here's more on the story, as covered by Bloomberg and The Japan Times.
How about Microsoft? Is it too big to sue?
A surprising thing is Justsystem shares fell 3 yen, or 0.5 percent, to 600 yesterday - As if nothing happened?
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
Matsushita declined to say whether it thinks any other software vendors may be infringing its patent.
r fect--* *sputter* *choke*
Gee, do you think there might be any other software out there that uses a help icon? *cough* *coughwindowsmacoswordexcelaccesspowerpointwordpe
Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
If only someone would sue Microsoft for Clippy, we could finally be rid of the biggest annoyance in Microsoft Office.
"Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
If Ichitaro would have just used the standard Microsoft (that's the software platform they target) context-sensitive help, none of this would be an issue.
Instead, they hired on an ex-Matsushita employee and he went on to use the Matsushita patented method for the help system. So they sued, as is their right.
This is not a problem with the patent system. However what it does bring up is "How much knowledge can you take away from your previous employer, even if all that knowledge is just in your head?" As we gain ground in technology, such to the point that Johnny Bnemonic-style memory expansion is possible, how can patent holders and companies owning "trade secret" IP be protected from information pirates?
this world has gone absolutely fucking insane.
I'm seriously considering moving to the wilderness. If there's any of that left.
Open Source the offending software, then let them try to take down SourceForge!
[o]_O
This is all the more reason to order the destruction of software patents.
Also from TFA: Does the Japanese patent system have no concept of "prior art"? The patent in question was granted in 1998, but the products in "violation" has been on the market since 1985 and 1987.
This is relatively old news in Japan, and the makers of Ichitaro (Just System) have appealed to a higher court. Until a final ruling is made, Ichitaro will be on sale as usual. The court refused to make a preliminary injunction against the Ichitaro software, which Matsushita had requested.
That said, the patent itself isn't regarding a Help Icon. It is the function where you first click on the help icon/button, and then on the particular function you need help with.
In court, Just System insisted that the Matsushita Patent was for a help ICON, which is usuall an item on the desktop, much like a file or folder, whereas the Just System Ichitaro used a button. The second point was that the "help" key on a keyboard already performed said function, and taking the keyboard to a GUI analogy did not require any insight, but was rather an obvious move as more and more keyboard functions were moved to the GUI.
The lower court found that the "icon" was used loosely and would be found to include the buttons-with-pictures as found in Ichitaro. As for the keyboard-to-gui concept, the court found that it would take more than obvious insight to make the leap, thus it was a valid invention.
Quite obviously, Matsushita was quite pleased that the court bought their story, while Just System was quite pissed off. By appealing to a higher court though, they did not need to immediately follow the ruling.
Whether you think this was fair game or not, keep in mind that this is pretty much what Microsoft did too with Win95 and IE. Keep the court case going long enough that the Win95/IE bundle was no longer relevant.
Hopefully Nintendo does not sue /. for use of that Linux penguin icon, which is an obvious ripoff of Super Mario 64's snow level character.
In the enclosed envelope is a map of all Japanese Patent Offices.
They told me to tell you that your mother is a dishonorable dirty woman.
attatchment [jpomap.png]
Sigs? We don't need no stinking sigs!
Those bastards probably stole Clippy, too. Not that I ever tolerated Clippy's presence on the screen. In fact I hated him with a passion. But it's the principle of the the thing. Can't have Clippy ravaged and transmuted into a multitude of Japanese variants. He's the American Satan, not some overseas, sandal-wearing, fish-monger.
By gosh the summary's innacuracy is comparable to Microsoft marketing propaganda. The article does not state clearly "that the use of a help icon" was the cause of the dispute. It does say
The Gnome pics, now this? filler for nerds, stuff that doesn't happen?
HAD
Good to see we're still finding reasons to destroy content just like the warmer moments of various regimes throughout time. What a waste.
See msdn for more information
The Japanese are known for their ability to copy an idea and then "make it better", in their own unique style (e.g. the VCR, automobile, etc.). Let's hope they can break away from that paradigm when it comes to patent law. From the sound of this article though, it looks like that might give the U.S. a run for it's money in regards to IP fascism. *sigh*
You are forgetting that if you patent something, it is not a trade secret anymore. You don't need Bnemonic style memory: all you need to do is read the patent, which is your legal right. How would you otherwise know what you are not allowed to copy?
Software patents are just ridiculous.
"Matsushita Electric, in close cooperation with Microsoft, will develop a high-performance personal computer suited to the advanced image-processing demands of the 21st century," said Dr. Yoshitomi Nagaoka, vice president of Matsushita Electric's AVC Company..."
Who stands to profit if this software is knocked off the market?
I really don't think Ichitaro would disappear from the market anytime soon. Ichitaro used to dominate the word processor market back in the days of MS-DOS, just like Word Perfect did in the United States, and still remains a very important player. Major companies and a number of government branches still rely heavily on Ichitaro because it can produce documents in forms that are specific to the Japanese corporate and governmental culture, which is not possible with Microsoft Word. Just System is a major software company famous for their ATOK kana-kanji conversion system. Kana-kanji conversion systems are essential for Japanese input, and ATOK, with its smart lexical recognition AI engine, has been the unparalleled leader for over a decade.
Did it have to be "fallout"?
Tokyo tokkyo kyoka-kyoku kyou kyuukyo kyoka kyakka.
Translation: The Tokyo patent office hurriedly rejected the permission today.
The short description of the patent sounds very much like the help system that appeared in several incarnations on MacOS.
AFAIK the bubble help gave context sensitive information on GUI elements after activating it with a button.
Apparently MacOS 7 came out two years before the patent was filed. Here's a screenshot of MacOS 7 with the help icon and a copyright notice.
RIAA != ASCAP/BMI/SESAC.
RIAA are evil bastards who exploit musicians, degrade the art of music, and will be first against the wall when the revolution comes.
ASCAP et. al, while flawed in execution, are based on a good idea: songwriters should get a cut when someone makes money off a song they wrote. If I sell a CD with a cover of "Tangled Up in Blue", or play it at a gig at my local tavern, these are the guys who make sure Dylan gets his nickel out of the profits. (Google for "songwriter royalties performance mechanical".) However - and this is key - if I'm playing for fun not profit, Bob doesn't get a penny.
For years I've been suggesting that royalties for copying recordings ought to work the same way - share for free, but if you're selling the artist gets a cut.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
I hate to say it, but this really is a minimal event for the overall market-- no one I know has used Ichitaro for years. MSWord is fully entrenched here, and will be for the forseeable future.
In regards to Open Source alternatives such as OpenOffice, they are sorley lacking in Kanji conversion, dictionaries, and layout flexibility. I know that Turbo and Others put effort into this, but progress is slow...
davejenkins.com |
how can patent holders and companies owning "trade secret" IP be protected from information pirates?
Patents are not trade secrets. The fact that someone moved between companies doesn't make the patent claim any more valid.
Furthermore, the ossified Japanese economy needs to encourage mobility of workers, in particular, high-tech workers. The kind of exchange of knowledge and ideas that brings is essential to a high-tech economy. Even if your argument were valid that this has to do with employees moving between companies, it would still be a bad decision from that point of view.
What makes this patent particularly vile is that it was filed in 1989 but granted in 1998; this almost certainly constitutes a deliberate abuse of the patent system by Matsushita.
Most of the "ideas" that companies generate (in particular Japanese companies) were almost entirely developed in academia anyway; it is only companies that can afford to do carpet patenting in order to snare others in their so-called IP. Let's hope that universities will be fighting back aggressively by patenting themselves; once companies face huge patent portfolios without the ability to cross license, then maybe things will change.
Microsoft probably has a patent cross-licensing agreement with Matsushita, or at least they may have already forged an agreement (maybe as part of another deal). It actually stands to reason that Microsoft initiated all of this.
It was filed in 1989, which is what counts. The fact that it floated around in the patent system until issue in 1998 shows how good the company is at playing the system.
Matsushita, which sells its products under the Panasonic brand
I certainly won't be buying anything Panasonic for a long while. I hope that by making it a public disgrace for a company to endanger 78% of the installed office environments in Japan (think what loss of productivity would occur if they spread enough FUD to make those people buy thier product, and install it, and learn it?).
Japan has a very honourable work ethic in terms of employee/employer relations, they value the company, so the political fall out over this may yet to come.
#hostfile 0.0.0.0 primidi.com 0.0.0.0 www.primidi.com 0.0.0.0 radio.weblogs.com
if the 78% figure of the article is accurate, they are not just a competitor of Microsoft. they f*cking own them.
We'll be seeing more and more of these, as the great Land Rush of IP patents continues. Equating intangibles with property is like creating a whole new world, ready to be staked out and fenced off like the American West in the 1800s. Eventually, creating something new and innovative without a battery of lawyers or a big corporation behind you will be as quaint a notion as walking out into the wilderness and setting up a farm.
Can we please know when the patent was applied for, so we can see if there's any prior art?
I would have thought that in 1985 Apple would have already had a help icon on their Macs...
By summer it was all gone...now shesmovedon. --
When the most popular word processor can be shut down because of a help icon, it's obvious that any innovators in US and Japan will be sued into oblivion by no-longer innovative companies that wish to maintain status quo. Other countries that don't recognize software patents will write superior, cheaper programs and non-software US businesses will eventually lobby their way into buying them despite patent violations. Remember the thing about outsourcing and foreign sweatshops?
Time to sell AMZN and MSFT. They are protecting themselves to death.
Can anybody get a screenshot of what exactly they are arguing over since it's not just an icon?
What are Japanese patent laws? And what is the actual patent? No one knows either of these things. Japanese law may not have the "Non-obviousness" or "inventive step" clauses that America does. 2nd if it is an issue of an icon being used to access help a simple fine and software patch to remove the icon and change the access to help to something other then a button/icon.
The Microsoft/Matshusita link is tenuous, what computer hardware/software company has not worked with Microsoft at some point on a collaboritive project? Sony? IBM? DELL? Compaq/HP? Using the logic that was put forth earlier anyone Apple sues could be construed as being motivated from M$...
Lets see if anyone can get some real info on this. Instead of conjucture from a few short news blurbs that contradict each other.
---In a time of Chimpanzees I was a Monkey.
Scroll down past the Japanese description and you can see some pics of the offending icon in this link: http://japan.cnet.com/news/biz/story/0,2000050156, 20080442,00.htm
Does anybody know?
The "icon" used was in fact the ISO or SI (or whatever) standard glyph for "information". You know the one, the white lower case 'i' on a blue background. It isn't help, it is information. Therefore it isn't a help button.
it is only after a long journey that you know the strength of the horse.
The above gibberish is not a parody of Japanese. It is an actual Japanese tonguetwister.
Tokyo -- Tokyo
tokkyo -- patent
kyoka-kyoku -- 'permissions office'
kyou -- today
kyuukyo -- hurriedly
kyoka -- permission
kyakka -- rejection
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
"Clippy" is gone.
There should never be a need for you to see it ever again.
I haven't actually seen it in years.
In fact, the only place I ever hear about it anymore is here on Slashdot, where the merest mention of it seems to garner endless chuckles and mod points.
Can't we just let the damned, detestable, yet mercifully short-lived abomination fade into obscurity with his ill-conceived yet now mostly forgotten friends "MS Bob" and "MS SQL Server"?
Dead horse, meet stick.
Thanks for your kind consideration.
-- My Weblog.
Eventually they will go too far and the whole thing will collapse, and we will again be able to do what we want.
And as things are going, too far might not be very farther.
Justsystem started selling Ichitaro in August 1985
Matsushita patent number 2,803,236, which was registered with the Japanese patent office in 1998
Note the article says 'registered' not 'granted', so it would appear that 1998 was the start of the patent process, which makes a submarine patent look unlikely.
It is possible, however, that the problematic help system was added after 1998, though the article makes no mention of this.
If somebody has access to the court ruling and can provide a translation, I'm sure things will become a lot clearer.
All they have to do is take out the help icon and replace it with a menuitem. I'd hardly call that "destruction" (unless they meant the destruction of inventory).
I hardly think a company would really give up a product like this, most people arn't as lazy as CmdrTaco (who took downhis JavaInvaders game rather then change the name to JInvaders or something to avoid infringing Sun's trademark.)
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Um... think what you will. But US has a very lousy and restrictive patent/copyright system.
Regarding intelligent design...
Intelligent Design have ZERO solid evidence backing it. While Evolution, on the other hand, are backed heavily by numerous evidences. The only things Creationists/Anti-evolutionists managed to do is doubting the existing evidences supporting Evolution. But in the end, the number is still the same.
Intelligent Design: 0
Evolution: At least 1
Start giving the world proof on Intelligent Design, instead of waving the Bible at them and tell them its the truth.
Bible is good as a moral guidance, not reliable as a scientific writing.
In US, you can easily buy enough major firearms to wipe out your neighbourhood but a few little fireworks are banned.
OTOH, that does mean that any wealthy individual could have software development as a hobby. This is rather analogous to the way writing used to be a hobby among certain of the well-to-do. And, interestingly enough, the writers concentrated on an elegant writing style (however they defined it) rather than on sales (which was considered "crass").
... well, too obvious about what he wasn't saying (i.e. sexual references).
However, since software is much more easily duplicated than manuscripts are, this would be no bar to it's wide distribution and application. And such people would find the GPL to be no obstacle to their use of it, though some of them might prefer BSD.
We live in a culture centered around businesses, but don't fall into the fallacy that all activity takes place in that context everywhere.
OTOH, it's true that the writers of Belles Lettres would generally write at a pace that makes Debian stable look rapid. But not all of them, James Branch Cabel wrote a 7 or 8 volumne series (including the noted Jurgen). Most of them are out of publication, but the writing quality is excellent. A bit staid for modern tastes, but still excellent. (Jurgen could not have been written if he was worried about publication. It was banned in much of the English speaking world for being too
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.