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Microsoft WMV In Patent Trouble?
thpr writes "According to rethink,
Microsoft may be violating patents in their Windows Media software. Apparently, the VC1 standard (from The Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers), which has been pushed by Microsoft, depends on patents owned by other companies - more than likely, those that have patents used in the previous MPEG standards. According to the sources in the story, both Sony and Philips may take the case to court, rather than continuing negotiation. As they point out in a later update, Sony might be pleased to have a say in the competing HD-DVD format. Is this a 'major speed bump to Microsoft's dominance of digital media markets'?" Well, the answer, IMHO, is probably not - this is a negotiation issue. But this is a wonderful example of how intertwined legal & software issues can become.
How commercial closed-source software issues get, perhaps.
When you have as much money as Microsoft a patent license, or even a multi million dollar judgment is pocket change.
Only in a Slashdot fantasy can a Slackware install turn into several hours of sex . . . . .
It's very tempting to declare the old addage, "Live by the sword, die by the sword", but I'm not sure if that's the right attitude. Following that to its logical conclusion, it seems the only people that will be able to make money in the future are attorneys. Try to do anything else and you'll be sued.
I'm a big tall mofo.
Like the poster, I don't think this is a major speedbump. ...but I also don't think that we're headed for a world where media formats are dominated by MS. They'll be a player in the industry for sure, but it's unlikely they'll have the same kind of dominance they've enjoyed in the operating system market.
I store my recipes online (the way nature intended)
Woderful is not the word I would use here. Nightmare. Catastrophe. SNAFU.
But not wonderful.
Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
You would think Microsoft would have learned not to use patented technology by now. It has a viral effect - build on existing patents and you are still caught in the trap.
...For an announcement in the next few weeks announcing Microsoft settling out of court for a massive, yet undisclosed sum of money, and getting exactly what they want. As usual.
Specialization is for insects. -Heinlein
Patent issues never stopped them before.
Well, now Microsoft have something to think about in reagrd it's pushing for EU software patent law....
In Europe, where software patents aren't yet valid, how does this apply?
Do only h/w versions of the codec infringe, or do s/w versions infringe as well?
Hmm...this technique is usually used by anyone in motion video or you will get screen flicker if you redraw the entire screen every frame.
Also, if these other companies are using WMV, wouldn't it be in their best interest to have their codec distributed with the huge marketshare of Windows users? I'm not sure if they were planning on selling a codec and what the market is to actually buy one. If I download something and it doesn't work with my standard codecs, I delete it.
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I - I took the one the bus load of girls just went down.
I thought I'd seen every kind of tortured connection Slashdot had to offer. "Only terrorists use WMV" is a new one on me . . . .
If only terrorists use WMV then who uses Quicktime in this little universe anyway?
Only in a Slashdot fantasy can a Slackware install turn into several hours of sex . . . . .
If this doesn't go his way he'll either buy the company and "absorb it" or he'll just carry on and go "meh, I make more then that in a day".
Maybe we need a system where fines are set by how much money you earn per second. Average person earns $0 a second, so fines would be set to a lowest level (AKA all current levels, not RIAA current levels) and go from there.
I like muppets.
>If only terrorists use WMV then who uses Quicktime in this little universe anyway?
Oh that's easy... gay terrorists.
A friend of mine used to work at Dolby, and there were rumours there that a number of people thought Microsoft were infringing on several patents with WMV. This was a good couple of years ago, too.
Imagine there's no patents,
It's easy if you try,
No lawyers around us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
developing in joy...
Imagine there's no lawsuits,
It isn't hard to do,
Nothing to fight or pay for,
No worries too,
Imagine all the people
hacking code in peace...
Imagine no copyrights,
I wonder if you can,
Nothing to support greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of geeks,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...
You may say I'm a dreamer,
but I'm not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
a patent here a patent there they gotta be in trouble someday ...even though they bully ppl around ..looks like the beast of redmond is in a tiffy :-P
GGGMMMAAAIIILLL invites email me mrfrostbite@gmail.com
because it reads like a school magazine, terrible writing and has a very amateur/unprofessional feel about it, perhaps they want to "rethink" themselves
A few million in a case like this is chump change.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
With general closed source software like Windows, and many others, we just don't know what is being stolen, recompiled, and hidden away.
For all we know, many closed source software companies could be hiding much stolen and modified stolen code, and what's worse is that they can easily get away with it.
Legal and software issues intertwined? That's putting it mildly. It's more a cat's cradle or some bizarre Gordinian knot.
The legal issues, the patent insanity, are just making it harder and harder to make progress. At what point is it just not worth DOING something becasue of all the legal hassles involved.
Today it's media formats. What more could go wrong and what could grind to a halt?
"The Sage treasures Unity and measures all things by it" - Lao Tzu
What's that old saying? If you play with fire, you're going to get burnt? Maybe not the right saying but if you propergate this patent war, well, don't expect no sympathy. /Zealot MS hater mode off
Really though, it is obvious we are sliding to an era where patents are just horded and used as weapons. This stiffling inovation already, how bad is it going to get?
Maybe I'm wrong? Love to see some insightful comments of what is going to happen in the future - is everything going to belong to large corporations and the little guy has no chance?
The article actually suggest that if it went to court, the final figure would be more like $5 BILLION. Not such pocket change, even for MSFT
But who in their right mind would use a video format that 'phones home' every time you watch 'Anal Love Dog HD: Director's cut'?
WMV-HD kind of sucks anyway: there are some horrid compression artifacts in the roller-coaster shots in one of the sample WMV-HD files.
s/software/*
legal issues intertwine all facets of our lives. software is no exception and it hardly could be considered to be intertwined more than anything else.
The only thing this is an example of is the legal nature between corporations. Software is just the details that don't really matter much. The could be talking about the production of blorps and gizmo gadgets for all they care. As long as it makes them money and as long as the legal system is used to the fullest extent possible to garuntee them the biggest cut. They don't really think of it as applying law to software as they really don't care if its software or a physical product. Makes no difference to them or the legal system.
How about:
Microsoft are bad and are getting what they deserve, but I wish it wasn't via getting sued for a software patent violation because software patents are bad and shouldn't exist.
Why do I feel like I should add an "m'kay?" on the end?
Silly rabbit
In the corporate world everyone seems to have one (at least). Thats the problem with this kinda of generic ip. In hard science you can patent things like a machining process for maufacturing xyz, or a chemical compound, or chemical process.....
In the software world it's not that cut and dried. Hopefully someone will figure out that saying I'm patenting 'a video format that can be played on digital devices' is not going to cut it, and does not give the patent holder the rights to all video formats ever created.
Or not and europe and china will leave us and our lawyers in the dust.
So Long and Thanks for all the Fish.
...if software released under GPL was exempt from software patents ?
Well, since they've got something around 98% of the market share, I'd say their 'sneaky little tricks' are paying off.
Sometimes it works but on the other hand sometimes it dont and then they get sued.
Exactly. and when it doesn't work, they simply settle for what seems to us mere mortals to be exorbitant sums of money, but to them is merely pocket change. I'm not sure you realize just how deep M$'s pockets really are.
Well just wish they could crash and burn once and for all.
No, you don't. You don't want to be under something that big if it's about to 'crash and burn'...and face it...we're all under it.
____
~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
Guess that money will have to come from somewhere...
____
~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
Microsoft will continue to use the patents to gain market penetration and after a 4-year court battle make a settlement for what will amount to 4 days worth of profits.
Microsoft is unstoppable.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
You've probably got a point here, even though i dont like M$, it would probably make more problems if they crashed. With a money flow like that it would most likely effect a lot of stock excanges around the world.
Bits of News Giving you the latest bits.
And who do you think will foot the bill over the next 2 to 3 years?
If you don't know how to answer this correctly, riddle me this: How did Microsoft make most of its money? If there's a price to pay, we're going to pay it. Directly or indirectly, we'll (those who use Microsoft products, which is the majority of computer users, like it or not) have to pay it.
This reminds me of professional sports. Teams don't pay players. We do. Same goes for advertising, etc. We always pay.
Now accepting PayPal donations!
Microsoft do not have any form of dominance in the digital media market hence this thing can't affect it...
It's not because you use Windows that you employ MS technologies, Windows Media Player plays all sort of stuff even some not invented or owned by MS. Windows media isn't really popular you know, a few porn site, some crappy news site profiting from a deal with MS and the library of the people too simple minded to change settings in WMP, so they end up with Windows Media Audio and ask you to come to their place because their mp3 won't burn on an mp3 cd...
From Hamlet. (Good thing Shakespeare didn't get language patents back then or Mickey Mouse perpetual copyrights.)
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
...who uses Quicktime in this little universe anyway?
ahahahahahahahahahahaha oh man thats funny.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
According to the sources in the story, both Sony and Philips may take the case to court, rather than continuing negotiation.
Ooooh, that'll stop them. Microsoft must be quaking in their shoes over the thought of going to court.
Yea. I do see how some mods are. I like to burn my karma once in a while when I see abuse like this. Take a look at the modding now... the guy actually has a flamebait attached to the comment. A perfectly innocent, obvious statement, and it is flamebait. My statement WAS flamebait. It deserved a flamebait...
Mods: Please mod this one down as well... it will be one less mod point you have to do damage elsewhere.
See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
Maybe he got confused and thought (WMV == WMD)?
I totally agree with you. As I have said in the past (so this post should be a insightful, redudant, troll), I surf at Karma Excellente - they can mod me down all day and I will still be fine :D
I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
Heh...
It would be funny (and karmic justice) if Microsoft is definitely infringing on Sony's patents...
Then Sony can do onto Microsoft what Microsoft did unto IBM.
"Sure, Bill. We'll let you license our patents. On one condition - Knife the XBox and make no successors..."
(ok, feel free to mod this as flamebait)
-- The universe began. Life started on a billion worlds...
-- Except on one where stupidity was there first.
I can see Clippy on the stand right now...
[Lawyer] So Clippy, how is it you can animate yourself into interesting and rude shapes?
[Clippy] I see you are trying to cross-examine me. Would you like me to show you how?
Attorneys can only sue you if you've broken a law. If you don't like the laws then vote for different lawmakers.
$8.95/mo web hosting
In most jurisdictions there is no copyright on legal drafting...
The law is kind of like software for humans -- it is a set of codes that regulate who can do what under what circumstances.
Once machines get an inkling of intelligence and truly autonomous decision-making, then there will be NO difference between software and law.
You're getting slapped with a suit for copyright infringement. Did you think you could just use that song however you wanted? What kind of world do you imagine we're in?
There are 2 kinds of people in this world. Those that can keep their train of thought,
Sony made a particular point about this shortly after the DOJ scuttlement, when MS told them that the Court required uniform license terms and that meant no more exemptions from the non-assert clause.
At this point, the issue is likely to be boiling down to what (if anything) MS is willing to pay to keep Sony and Philips (and any others) from suing MS' users. Since neither company wants the bad PR from anything like that, they'll settle for peanuts.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
That is, by the way, the back door that got the US into the software patent business: lawyers just drew up claims for Rube Goldberg hardware that did the same thing without reference to software, then claimed the software by the Doctrine of Equivalences.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
Wonderful!
I'm not sure what the point of bringing up HD-DVD was. VC1 is part of the Blu-Ray specs too.
This is Sony trying to stick it to Microsoft, who is their PS3 competitor. Sony is still pissed that Microsoft decided to enter the console market and push their DirectNext platform after they first offered it to Sony for the PS2, and Sony turned them down. Microsoft sells the X-Box at a loss because they're trying to push that software platform. They even offered it to Nintendo, who also turned them down. So, they decided to make their own console.
This is also why you saw Sony's head guy at MacWorld '05. Sony wants to get rid of Microsoft and will help out with doing that so far as it benefits them.
Anything 1988 or earlier starts to expire.This at least ain't no Mickey-Mouse "protected forever" law!
Sounds like Microsoft may inadvertantly be in the market to purchase Sony and/or Philips.
Whomever wrote the original article is pretty fuzzy on a lot of details.
Just to clear things up a bit:
VC-9 was based on Windows Media Video 9, which is the commercial release version of the WMV codec, plus the Advanced Profile extensions. It was later renamed VC-1. No difference between the two.
H.264 and VC-1 do have significant technical differences (I go worried when he described his research on this point as "Another source told us recently that they had had the codec explained to them, and confirmed that it did "pretty much" the same as H.264." Well, pretty much in the same way that MPEG-1 and RealVideo do pretty much the same thing. They're both codecs, but have significant differences with real-world differences. For example, VC-1 uses larger blocks than H.264, which helps with some content and hurts with others. H.264 supports multiple reference frames, which can improve compression, but slows encode and decode.
Lastly, these issues aren't that unusual - I doubt it would even be possible to build a competitive codec without stepping on a whole lot of patents. Microsoft has IP in H.264, after all. It's still not possible to build a patent free MPEG-2 decoder.
My video compression blog
...I hate patents on so-called "intellectual property" even worse. It's one thing to have a copyright on a particular piece of software, but a patent on what is little more than a file format is ridiculous. It's like having a patent on a metrical form. I'd like to see someone file a patent on iambic pentameter, then sue every poet or songwriter who tries to use it in their work.
Proverbs 21:19
Sounds like a DRM opportunity to me:
org.slashdot.post.SignatureNotFoundException: ewg
I know Microsoft isn't going to do this, but with these sorts of cases running into the tens and hundreds of millions wouldn't it just be CHEAPER for some company being sued to simply BUY millions of dollars in advertizing and BUY half of congress and simply pass a law eliminating software patents? *Poof* A half billion dollar software patent lawsuit evaporates.
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
Fining companies punishes the company, in terms of its shareholders who are its owners. If they are fined enough they go bankrupt. It's nonsense to claim fining them is pointless.
I am trolling
...is on the party suing. You can't sue if you have no grounds to sue on because a) a lawyer won't take the case, and even if he does, b) a court will throw it out on Summary Judgment for the defendant.
I think Bill Gates is evil, IMHO. Proof: There was a photograph of him talking to the Antichrist himself, Bill Cliton. (No, that is not a typo, there is only one N in Cliton.)
MS SUX. Linux ROOLZ!!!
I have to admit, at first I was quite pleased with VLC, but on further consideration I've grown to dislike it. Firstly, there's an annoying jagged diagonal line through the picture during large amounts of movement; I've noticed it on every windows system I've installed it on, and one person I gave it to wisely started using the copy of BSPlayer I had also given her instead. True, with VLC you don't have to mess around with codecs, it's all built in . . . but this is one of the downsides, in a way, since then when things do go wrong the user is both clueless and powerless.
A better solution is something like Media Player Classic, which is very simlilar to good ol' Windows Media Player Pre-Evil (and still exists as mplayer2.exe), but with countless little extra features. The interesting bit is that it has quite a few built-in codecs, but these can be disabled, overridden, and indeed quite extensively customized in the background. And it runs from the exe, no installation even necessary. So in sum, it's a simple solution for inexperienced people (the kind that VLC is most useful for, what with requiring no knowledge or extra installation on their part) but also a powerful one for those that really know what they're doing. And of course, there are quite a few other good players with their own little quirks and benefits (Sasami2k for example--oh, if only it was still being developed! It showed serious promise).
And really, that diagonal line in VLC just bugs the crap out of me (and, as noted, this is not just a quirk on my end, one of my friends picked up the annoyance for it all by herself).
I remember sigs. Oh, a simpler time!
I should say "built in filters", since they're just filters for decoding, nothing more (it'd be a bit pointless to include more in the program, especially since in the current state mplayerc.exe is compact enough to fit onto a floppy!)
I remember sigs. Oh, a simpler time!
> But this is a wonderful example
> of how intertwined legal & software
> issues can become.
I think this would be more appropriately worded:
> But this is a frightening example
> of how intertwined legal & software
> issues can become.
modpoints to post here. Why the hell was the parent modded as Flamebait? I don't find it impossible that the scenario mentioned in the post has 'crossed' someone's mind. I think it would be funny if something like that happened. Far-fetched, but funny.
Gee, with all video codecs relying on the same things-----motion estimation on macroblocks, quantization, huffman or arithmetic coding. And all enhancements in modern codecs relying on the same things----quarter pel, GMC, adaptive quantization, trellis encoding, multiple motion vectors per macroblock, deringing, etc.
Won't ALL codecs infringe on every other mpegla patent at this point? These days almost every codec is MPEG4-like, with a small tweak here and there to give a few percent difference in quality or bitrate.
H.264 is about the freshest codec I've seen in awhile (new arithmetic coding technique gives a few percent more bits) but it still relies on the tried-and-true macroblock/quantization/motion-estimation scheme.
Once upon a time Ma Bell had a 100% market share. How did that work out for them?
Acctualy, you both are right in you own ways. Fining the company is, in essense, the same as making the product(s) more costly to produce. This increas in cost will bring about both higher prices and lower profits and the price elasticity will descide in what proportions. The fact that microsoft can be viewed as a monopoly will have an impact but not enough to negat it.
Karma: 2.71828182846 (Mostly due to small, fun pills)
VC-1, like MPEG-2, is standardized as how to parse and decode the data stream. The encoding is not actually standardized or defined. Infact, compression gets better every year, even for old-school codecs like MPEG-2, because of new encoding technology.
;)
I suspect that there may be fewer patent problems with the standardization of VC-1 than there are with the implementation of VC-1 (or any kind of WMV). Things like efficient algorithms for determining motion estimation vectors is where you would find the serious patents, these are encoding issues.
(BTW, I am at the SMPTE meeting in Pasadena right now, but I probably won't be attending much of S22. Nor would I talk about it if I did
Does this affect Crossover Plugin or Mplayer using Microsofts codecs?
...but even in civil court, the plaintiff has to show that they have been wronged somehow before the case even gets to trial.
This is only true with the crap US legal system. In many other countries you would be awarded costs if you won and the frivilous litigant would have to pay. The lack of a penalty for launching a poorly supported case is most of the problem with the US system.
MPEG is an ISO standard, so isn't Sony required to liscense its patents in a "fair and reasonable" way? Or is that only to creators of MPEG-related devices/software - not other systems the patent still applies to?
Karma: Excellent (fuck, even in the future moderation doesn't work!)
By your definition, MPEG-2 sucks since the first Highlander DVD was so bad.
My video compression blog
its evil vs evil using evil methods
;)
sit back get some popcorn and watch them duke it out
well, I think that the diagonal-line problem is universal across platform for VLC; some people just don't notice it, I think I recall seeing it on a friend's computer, he too runs OSX, and he was baffled by my attempts to explain to him what I was seeing. But VLC is certainly much better than most of the players for OSX (like Quicktime), so I'll give you a nod there (odd, actually, that windows has more selection for something that's media-related, but nowadays these situations are not very black and white anymore).
I remember sigs. Oh, a simpler time!
Here is a simple solution: In civil cort, the opposing party gets 30% of your legal fees, including retainers and costs of managment for corperate lawyers, to pay their own lawyers. Anyone who is "right" can afford to pay a lawyer 30% of what the opposition is paying theirs.. and if you ain't putting no money up yourself then you don't got to pay the 30%.
Its a simple tax on lawyers, but its used to pay lawyers, so it could actually pass as law. Its like a driving? segregation disorder in genetics, it can destroy an entire species (evolve to death).. lawyers in this case.
Jeff
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell