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Apple Wins Against Bloggers

linuxwrangler writes "Saying that no one has the right to publish information that could have been provided only by someone breaking the law, judge James Kleinberg ruled that online reporters for Apple Insider and PowerPage must reveal their sources. No word yet on an appeal."

84 of 672 comments (clear)

  1. A refreshing victory for common sense by daveschroeder · · Score: 4, Insightful

    (Note: More coverage in this news.com story)

    This judge has clearly shown that he has a grasp of the fundamental issues surrounding this case, and has realized that this is not a case about whether online sites are "journalists" or about the "right to blog". It's about when it's about when the dissemination of information in the public interest clearly overrides any other legal concerns or contracts and entitles journalists to not reveal their sources - and when it clearly doesn't.

    And if you're not going to RTFA, here is some of the jugde's ruling:

    "Unlike the whistleblower who discloses a health, safety or welfare hazard affecting all, or the government employee who reveals mismanagement or worse by our public officials, [the enthusiast sites] are doing nothing more than feeding the public's insatiable desire for information.[1]

    [...]

    Defining what is a 'journalist' has become more complicated as the variety of media has expanded. But even if the movants are journalists, this is not the equivalent of a free pass.

    [...]

    The journalist's privilege is not absolute. For example, journalists cannot refuse to disclose information when it relates to a crime.

    [...]

    [The information about Apple's unreleased products] is stolen property, just as any physical item, such as a laptop computer containing the same information on its hard drive [or not] would be. The bottom line is there is no exception or exemption in either the [Uniform Trade Secrets Act] or the Penal Code for journalists--however defined--or anyone else.

    [...]

    The public has had, and continues to have, a profound interest in gossip about Apple. Therefore, it is not surprising that hundreds of thousands of 'hits' on a Web site about Apple have and will happen. But an interested public is not the same as the public interest."


    Note that the judge did not say that Think Secret and other online sites weren't journalists; indeed, he tacitly acknowledged that they, and many others, may in fact be "journalists". But that fact is, correctly, irrelevant. In other words, online sites or bloggers may in fact be journalists; this isn't about "the right to blog". However, being a "journalist" does not automatically mean the mechanisms of obtaining information, the information itself, and the sources of the information are automatically protected by journalist shield laws and exempt from discovery, especially when otherwise applicable laws (such as the UTSA) may have been violated. In other words, when a crime may have been committed (and the burden of whether or not this information constitutes a "trade secret" still rests on Apple, even after this ruling).

    Further, the judge makes no distinction between online publications and mainstream newspapers, simply a distinction that any and all information gathering mechanisms are not necessarily protected if other laws are violated. The assertion on the part of some that "these subpoenas wouldn't exist if it was the New York Times or salon.com" is baseless at best.

    No doubt someone will find issue with what is or isn't "public interest" and the fact that the courts (i.e. the "government") must make such a determination and is simply shifting the importance of whether someone can be considered a "journalist" to another consideration, essentially allowing the government to decide what is "acceptable" to be leaked and what isn't, and will make arguments that this will make it easier for corporations and/or the government to hide abuses, stop whistleblowers, etc. However, all of these arguments are red herrings. The court clearly acknowledged that sources information in the clear public interest must indeed be protected. Further note that the court DID NOT rule on the merits of Apple's claim itself, i.e., that the information was in fact a trade secret: "The order of this court does not go beyond the questions necessary t

    1. Re:A refreshing victory for common sense by f0dder · · Score: 2, Funny

      pfft... he only had the whole day to compose it. /money says he's been hitting refresh on slashdot just ready to post.

    2. Re:A refreshing victory for common sense by SpryGuy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Does this mean that Robert Novak has to reveal his sources in the Valerie Plame story? Since that involves TREASON, which is a bit more serious than revealing trade secrets, doesn't this ruling apply there as well?

      --

      - Spryguy
      There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
    3. Re:A refreshing victory for common sense by mark-t · · Score: 3, Interesting
      While it's certainly appreciable that journalists cannot refuse to disclose information when it relates to a crime, there is no hard evidence that a crime was actually committed, only an allegation that a crime was committed. That's why, IMO, the identities should have remained protected. The fact that they couldn't prove a crime had occurred _unless_ they knew the identities of the sources is irrellevant as far as I can tell and to assume otherwise is tantamount to saying that a person is guilty until proven innocent.

      Although my feelings on the matter are irrellevant... the judge made his decision, I only hope that the consequences for the precedent aren't unmanageable.

    4. Re:A refreshing victory for common sense by daveschroeder · · Score: 3, Informative

      Does this mean that Jeff Gannon aka James Guckert was just as much of a "journalist" as anyone else in the White House Press room? Since there is a BLOGGER in the White House now, and apparently anyone with a web site is a journalist, doesn't this apply there as well?

      (Yes, I'm being a little sarcastic there.)

      Or shall we stay on topic here?

      And to directly answer your question, yes, Novak should reveal his source if there is ever any court action that compels him to do so. (Disclaimer: I am not familiar with shield laws on this topic in Novak's jurisdiction or Washington DC.)

      And it's not treason. Treason in the US is very specifically defined as only "levying war against the United States or 'in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort,' and requires the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act or a confession in open court for conviction."

    5. Re:A refreshing victory for common sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      The focus of this whole issue has been shifted, and I think that you, along with most people, missed the point. Apple isn't going after their customers. Apple isn't going after the rumor sites. Apple is going after someone who broke the law to provide trade secrets.

    6. Re:A refreshing victory for common sense by mark-t · · Score: 2, Insightful
    7. Re:A refreshing victory for common sense by hyfe · · Score: 2, Informative
      This, of course, completely ignores the basic ideas of property, including intellectual property, and good-faith agreements to not reveal your employer's secrets, not to mention fundamental ideas of ethics, and further ignores the idea that free speech is not, and never has been, absolute, in that it has ramifications.

      1. One would assume that one finding "trade secrets" and the UTSA unconstitutional wasn't all that keen on intellectual property in the first place, and most certainly would dismiss that it has anything to do with real property. This line of argueing is thus only valid if you agree with the conclusion in the first place.

      2. Secondly; yes, free speech has always had ramifications. Somebody most certainly broke a non-disclure contract here, and they most certainly are liable by whatever stipulated there. The kicker is however, how does this pertain to third parties in poessesion of the 'illegal information'? A great many people find the prospect that they should be held liable for publishing information gotten legally (from their point of view that is) just because whoever they got it from brok a NDA ridicilous. Not everybody accepts the notion that some information can suddenly be flagged as secret, and that you have to go around pretending not to know it. Signing away your own free speech is one thing, signing away others' is a whole different slew!

      3. Moreover, I also believe quitr alot of people would be against the notion that these bloggers have to give up their sources. A potential breach of a NDA should be treated as a contract dispute, and this shouldn't have anything to do with special tradelaws, and shouldn't involve courts/police at all! It ain't the governments job to create special provions for certain kind of contracts just because somebody crybabied themselves to it. This is just artificially plugging the market something it's perfectly able to fix itself (god forbid somebody actually had to try to keep their employees happy!)

      --
      "" How about taking the safety labels off everything, and let the stupidity-problem solve itself? """
    8. Re:A refreshing victory for common sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      that's the most insightful first post I have EVER read

      No, I believe this is the very insightful first post.

    9. Re:A refreshing victory for common sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Does this mean that Jeff Gannon aka James Guckert was just as much of a "journalist" as anyone else in the White House Press room?

      The difference between Gannon and a "real" journalist is that Gannon tells you his bias up front.

      Let's not pretend that journalists are magic beings. They had their chance and these past few years demonstrated that they aren't as ethically pure as they claim.

      Since there is a BLOGGER in the White House now, and apparently anyone with a web site is a journalist, doesn't this apply there as well?

      Democracy sure sucks, eh? What next, anybody who's good at selling things can be a businessman? Anybody with a computer is a an open-source programmer? Anybody who plays the piano is a musician?

      There's only one thing that matters for any journalist, online or otherwise: do you have the reputation? And as Dan Rather proves, your reputation is only as good as your last story.

    10. Re:A refreshing victory for common sense by John+Newman · · Score: 3, Informative
      I'd say no. You could make the argument that the Valerie Plame story involves public intrest, because it revolves around alleged nepotism and poor quality research done at the CIA.
      But two other reporters with only tangential links to the story, the New York Times' Judith Miller and Time magazine's Matthew Cooper, are being held in contempt of court, and are facing 18 months in prison for not naming their sources in connection with the case. Clearly the judge in their cases feels the Valerie Plame story involves critical public interest, so the only question is why these two and not the guy who actually published it?
    11. Re:A refreshing victory for common sense by wcdw · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not true - the only way for that information to have come into the possession of the bloggers was for someone to have committed a crime - stealing trade secrets.

      The only way for that not to be true is if Apple itself had authorized the release, which clearly they did not.

      --
      If you're not living on the edge, you're just taking up space!
    12. Re:A refreshing victory for common sense by node+3 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This, of course, completely ignores the basic ideas of property, including intellectual property, and good-faith agreements to not reveal your employer's secrets, not to mention fundamental ideas of ethics, and further ignores the idea that free speech is not, and never has been, absolute, in that it has ramifications.

      You're rolling a whole lot under one umbrella there. Physical property is different from so-called intellectual property, is different from ethics and deception.

      Apple is trying to create a false reality--a reality in which secrets are kept merely by agreement. That's not realistic on any large scale. Equating 'secrets' with 'physical property' doesn't change reality.

      I disagree with forcing TS to reveal their sources in this case, not because I think there should be no repercussions for those who violate confidentiality agreements, but because I don't think Apple has the right to force (via the courts) TS to do their work for them. Apple has leaks, and needs to find and fix them themselves. It should be up to TS whether to help Apple or not.

      We're not talking about info critical to solving a major crime, we're not talking about private personal data, we're not even talking about critical strategic data, we're talking about a contract violation, a contract of confidentiality on some hardware audio input that Apple was planning to release shortly anyway--and a contract that TS is not even a party to. This is about Apple not getting to control the hype they want. Too bad. Apple doesn't have a right to get the hype they want, only the right to try. You don't always get what you want, and it's unfair of Apple to use force in this case.

    13. Re:A refreshing victory for common sense by scheme · · Score: 2, Insightful
      But two other reporters with only tangential links to the story, the New York Times' Judith Miller and Time magazine's Matthew Cooper, are being held in contempt of court, and are facing 18 months in prison for not naming their sources in connection with the case. Clearly the judge in their cases feels the Valerie Plame story involves critical public interest, so the only question is why these two and not the guy who actually published it?

      How do you know Novak hasn't already been called and revealed everything? Grand jury witnesses and testimony is usually kept secret and Novak hasn't been forthcoming.

      The prosecuter could be trying to get other colloborating sources so that it doesn't turn into a he said/she said argument between Novak and a senior administration official.

      --
      "When you sit with a nice girl for two hours, it seems like two minutes. When you sit on a hot stove for two minutes, it
    14. Re:A refreshing victory for common sense by amper · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I disagree. The fact that wrongdoing was involved (and here I hesitate to characterize the act as criminal, as opposed to civil, being as I am not familiar with CA contract law) is empirically demonstrated by the fact that the only way that the information in question could have been released is if someone under prior restriction (as in an NDA) revealed it to the journalists involved.

      The relevant question is, does Apple have a right to discover the identities of the violator(s)?

      I believe that they do. Declan McCullagh's article (news.com) on the topic is indicative of the false assumptions made by many people as concerns this case. As the judge correctly surmised, an "interested public" does not equate with "the public interest". The Watergate scandal involved criminal acts that clearly reached to highest levels of government. Apple v. Doe involves a tort committed against a corporation inclear violation of prior agreements. The two are not equivalent.

      Freedom of speech and freedom of the press do not, and should not, extend to an ability to withhold the identities of persons who have committed an illegal act. The same would be true even if we were discussing the attorney/client privilege. An attorney who is privy to physical edvidence that his client is guilty can be lawfully compelled to reveal that information.

      This is not about corporate interests v. the public interest.

    15. Re:A refreshing victory for common sense by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Let's assume that it wasn't the magazine's source.

      Then not only is the magazine liable (yes, you are liable if you should have known or guessed that the information is protected as a trade secret), but the person upstream of them is liable. As is the original source. Everyone in the chain between the original source and the magazine is liable.

      Receiving trade secret information functions nearly exactly like receiving stolen goods - if you get some, even if you did so in good faith, you are at fault. Doesn't matter how far down the chain you are, you remain at fault.

      --

      ---
      Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
      (I read with sigs off.)
    16. Re:A refreshing victory for common sense by brokencomputer · · Score: 2, Informative

      "giving them Aid" Disclosing information about an undercover government agent seems to mee like it is giving aid to the enemies of the United States

    17. Re:A refreshing victory for common sense by nicovl · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Breaking the Law is Breaking the law? End of Story?

      I have never heard such nonsense! Find a judge or lawyer who has never broken the law!

      The law is a complete and corrupt disaster.

      It is a tool of the rich and powerful (don't believe me? See if you can afford a lawyer! The law isn't made for you, you can't really afford it!)

      To add insult to injury, the legal system is so complex that even lawyers don't understand it all. One lawyer can't help you with all your possible problems. In theory to avoid getting in trouble you need to have a pack of about 20 lawyers running all over the place with you to make sure you don't do something that could get you in trouble.

      Laws are:

      • A tool for huge corporations and the almighty elite to control us. Even our thoughts (eg. software patents)!
      • A tool to empower these same corporations. They have more rights than we people do!
      • A system created to protect us from crime that has been converted into a system to commit crime. When a lawyer writes you a letter threatening to sue you if you don't pay a certain amount of money... How is that different to extortion? Ever lost a case where you know that you were innocent?

      The law is a system controlled by idiots, hypocrites and liars! Don't believe me? Look at your country's Internet laws or patent laws. Only a bunch of idiots could have come up with that!

      Like many other things in our world today, the legal system is a disgrace to the human race.

      A lot more could be said but I can't even be bothered. The people of today don't seem to give a shit about anything... not even themselves!

      Please just start thinking and stop regurgitating!
    18. Re:A refreshing victory for common sense by Rauser · · Score: 2, Informative

      Time to refresh your memory:

      NEW YORK, January 13 (newratings.com) - Apple Computer's (AAPL.NAS) share price appreciated more than 10% in early trade on Thursday, after the company reported its highest-ever quarterly sales and earnings for 1Q FY05.

      Apple Computer said in a statement late on Wednesday that its earnings more than quadrupled in the fiscal first quarter this year. The company's net income increased to $295 million or $0.70 per share in 1Q FY05 ended December 25, while sales increased to $3.5 billion, representing 75% y/y growth. Apple Computer's first fiscal quarter results were ahead of the Wall Street forecasts. The company's iPod shipments increased to 4.58 million units in the quarter, from the year-ago figure of 2 million units. The company witnessed robust y/y growth in the shipment volumes of its Macintosh computers as well during the quarter. Apple Computer has projected earnings of $0.40 per share and sales of $2.9 billion for the current quarter ending March this year, which is ahead of the current consensus forecasts. Earlier this week, the company introduced low-priced versions of its popular iPod music player and Mac personal computer, iPod Shuffle and Mac Mini.

      --
      The white zone is for loading and unloading only. If you need to load or unload go to the white zone. It's a way of life
    19. Re:A refreshing victory for common sense by g00set · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Where have you read that he refused to reveal his sources? From what I understand the trial proceedings are closed door stuff. He may have already been deposed and is waiting till they call him next. They only people you are hearing about are the people who are refusing to comply with the courts.

      --
      ... and furthermore ... I don't like your trousers.
    20. Re:A refreshing victory for common sense by Calibax · · Score: 5, Informative

      I honestly can't see why these two reporters are protecting their sources in the Valerie Plame case. Supposedly, someone (or some people) wanted to settle a score with the operative's husband and decided that the best way was to ruin this lady's career. This was a criminal act under Section 421 of Title 50 of the United States Code (better known as the Intelligence Identities Protection Act) which is designed to protect the agent, the agent's contacts in the USA and in foreign countries, and prevent impairment of the country's national security efforts.

      In short, these reporters were used to do someone's dirty work. They must have known this, but they still protect the person or persons who used them, possibly even to the extent of going to jail.

      Here's an example of the difficulty in allowing the reporters to keep secrets. Suppose that I happen to know that a friend of mine is a spy and I tell anyone this fact, then I can go to prison for 10 years. But (by the reporters reasoning) if I tell a journalist, he can publish that information with impunity and doesn't even have to say where he got the information. Doesn't that seem wrong somehow?

      In any case, how does it serve the interests of the country to publish the name of an American spy? The idea of shielding journalists is so that they are free to communicate freely and to report on scandals that need to be exposed to public scrutiny. In this case, the sources that the reporters are protecting were not whistleblowers with knowledge of a scandal. Indeed, the sources ARE the scandal. They are not brave tellers of truth, determined to get a dastardly plot out in the public eye - they are nothing but craven scoundrels bent on settling a score. I would have thought that real journalists would hate being used in this fashion. I know I would.

      Wouldn't it serve the best interests of the press to expose these people rather than protect them?

    21. Re:A refreshing victory for common sense by RickHunter · · Score: 2, Informative

      Unfortunately, the problem is that the Valerie Plame story:

      a) Does not involve nepotism. Valerie and her husband were both very clear that she had not been involved in any way with his selection, and reliable sources at the CIA confirmed this. Wilson was qualified.

      b) Does not involve poor-quality research. Plame and her husband's research on the Niger Yellowcake documents was one of the few shining high points in the events surrounding Dubya's bullheaded rush to war. The two of them confirmed that the documents were faked and that Iraq had not tried to acquire weapons-grade uranium from Niger. Unfortunately, the neo-cons in power decided that the facts were the wrong facts and lied their way to war anyway.

      c) Does involve the public interest. Revealing the identity of an undercover CIA agent is treason. Plame's identity was a closely-guarded secret and, by revealing it, someone in the White House put a lot of people in direct mortal danger and severely damaged our ability to gain intelligence about the very threat they have been claiming to be fighting. The outing was also not due to concerns about nepotism; rather, it was revenge against Plame and her husband for speaking out against the Cheney/Rove administration.

    22. Re:A refreshing victory for common sense by penix1 · · Score: 3, Informative

      "dumbass, if you can't afford a lawyer, they will appoint one for you.."

      Dumbass, not for a CIVIL case they dont. And trade secret *IS* a civil case.

      B.

      --
      This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
    23. Re:A refreshing victory for common sense by demachina · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Wouldn't it serve the best interests of the press to expose these people rather than protect them?"

      It would serve the best interests of the public, yes, but it would mean these two reporters would effectively destroy their careers because no confidential source would ever trust them again, therefor they would never get any confidential information which is what most good journalists live for. There isn't much demand for journalists who only write about things that are already public knowledge.

      I'm inclined to say Judith Miller does deserve some jail time but not in this case. She wisely opted to not publish this story, presumably because she appreciated the dangers of outing a CIA agent, or she realized that by doing it she was just being a pawn in a White House scheme to punish Wilson and his wife for daring to challenge the White House or their sham case for war against Iraq.

      The thing Judith Miller does deserve some hard time for was being a lead cheerleader for the invasion of Iraq and the shameless extent to which she pumped up the national paranoia about biological weapons in particular. I'd dearly love to know what the motivation was for her little campaign to whip America in to a frenzy over biological weapons:

      - Legitimate concern for the safety and well being of Americans
      - Realized it would be a way to make a lot of money, especially by writing a book on biological weapons
      - Unwitting pawn of the Bush administration in their desire to whip up a case for sham war in Iraq
      - Witting pawn of the Bush administration in their desire to whip up a case for sham war in Iraq

      The only two reporters who deserve some hard time in the Plame/Wilson affair are Robert Novak and maybe Jeff Gannon, but since they are both fanatical conservatives and darlings of the one party in charge of the one party state we live in now chances are they will get off scott free while the reporter from the despicable psuedo liberal rag the one party state hates so much, the New York Times, will go down and down hard.

      The Bush administration seems to have a flair for sham investigations. For example this week the Pentagon investigation in to an apparent global epidemic of prisoner abuse and torture remarkably found the Pentagon to be completely innocent and it just happens elisted soldiers in Gitmo, Iraq, Afghanistan, and probably other secret locales around the world all took it upon themselves to torture prisoners, and of course the CIA's Rendition program was delivering 100's of prisoners to despotic regimes like Saudi Arabia's specificly for the purposes of interrogating them via torture. The irony here is either the chain of command ordered the torture, or the chain of command failed to prevent it. You cant have enlisted men do bad things in the military without an officer either ordering it, or being derelict in his duty for letting it happen without orders. Enlisted soldiers aren't free spirits who can just do their own thing in the military. They have a chain of command whose job it is to insure they do what the chain of command tells them to do.

      --
      @de_machina
    24. Re:A refreshing victory for common sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Welcome to Amerika! Isn't ironic that someone in the so-called "War President's" administration who are supposedly keeping us safe from terrorists, outed the identity of a covert CIA operative responsible for preventing the proliferation of nuclear weapons? This was not done to expose "nepotism", as some have suggested, but as a retaliation for her husband's critique of the phony Nigerian yellowcake story which the administration kept harping on as part of it's "proof" of Saddam's weapons programs. If Bush were truly concerned with truth and accountability, why has he not taken the lead here and gotten to the bottom of this? We spent millions investigating Clinton's extramarital affairs, but the "party of morality" can't investagate any of the many shady things this administration has done? The news media runs story after story on the the Swift Boat Vets bashing Kerry (and who are now known to have been lying), but CBS fires Dan Rather for citing a single document regarding Bush's dereliction of duty with questionable veracity? Liberal media my ass!

    25. Re:A refreshing victory for common sense by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Revealing state secrets is a crime of treason. Novak and his source BOTH are treasonous scum. However, Novak has done some fine work as a White House Operative, so he'll manage nicely through all this.

      --
      It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
    26. Re:A refreshing victory for common sense by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 2, Informative

      I dont get this - why would I ethically be bound to protect other people's secrets that they failed to protect (keep from me)?

      You're not. Let me explain a little for you. I just harshed out in another post, so I'll try to keep this more amicable.

      If you were involved, even tangentially, in a transaction that was either unlawful (the breaking of a contract, for instance) or illegal (the dissemination of trade secrets, for example), even if you bore no guilt whatsoever, you would still be required to make testimony about the case, to provide evidence as a witness.

      The people who published the information aren't necessarily guilty of a crime nor liable for a tort. However, they are witnesses, and as such, can be compelled to reveal their sources. They tried to use a loop hole given journalists who need to protect sources for the socially beneficial purpose of whistle blowing.

      The court didn't agree with this, and ordered that they must reveal their sources. The main reason was not whether or not that they are "really journalists", but that even if they are journalists, they weren't entitled to protection under the loophole because the material they published in no way whatsoever could be considered in the public interest. There was no malfeasance or illegal behavior that was being revealed.

      I hope that clears things up. You did put your statements in the form of a question, and I've always been a big Jeopardy fan.

      --
      It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
    27. Re:A refreshing victory for common sense by gad_zuki! · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >And as Dan Rather proves, your reputation is only as good as your last story.

      And pray tell, if this is true then how does Judith "front page WMD stories for 2 years at the NYTimes" Miller still have a job? Novak still has his column and TV spots.

      Your rule only applies if you go against a certain party's agenda. If you're a biased journalist doing said party's agenda, you're golden.

  2. What to think... by ozric99 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Do we like this because it's Apple, or do we hate this because 'geeks' lost their case...

  3. Sources by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 5, Funny

    Dear Apple,

    I heard it on Slashdot.org

    There was this guy, I think he was call Anthony Coward or something, and he was telling me all about the fab new stuff. ...

    --
    liqbase :: faster than paper
    1. Re:Sources by Anthony+Coward · · Score: 5, Funny
      --
      This .sig is the short tail.
  4. Apple is evil? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    head spinning ...must stop self destruct sequence..

  5. What were they thinking. by FrankieBoy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This isn't about protecting sources, this is corporate espionage plain and simple. They're not protecting reporting sources, they're shielding criminals.

    1. Re:What were they thinking. by bw5353 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      While I do agree with you that the ruling in this case probably was correct, I firmly disagree that it was a simple case.

      The ruling means that I cannot go to a journalist with suspicions that my current employer may use illegal methods. It probably means that I cannot go to a journalist even if I am absolutely certain my employer uses illegal methods, because it would be illegal of me to disclose that my company behaves illegally. On the other hand, it is illegal not to denounce criminals... Oh, well, I guess I could go to the police.

      But what if my company's practices are perfectly legal, but highly immoral? (They may for example use sweat shops in poor countries or buy material from sweat shops or pollute poor countries in desperate need of cash.) I cannot go to the police with that information, because the police doesn't care about immoral behaviour, as long as one doesn't break the law. And with this ruling, I cannot alert the press either, because the press will have to disclose who gave them information, which my company considered secret.

      In the case with Apple, the law worked well, but it is by no way certain that we will like that it is interpeted this way next time.

  6. Appeal by Valiss · · Score: 5, Informative

    From Slashdot:
    No word yet on an appeal.

    From the article:
    He said the trio would appeal the judge's ruling.

    Oi, this is getting bad. I mean, do the submitter read the articles they submit?

    --

    -Valiss
  7. Shameless link peddling by Leo+McGarry · · Score: 5, Informative

    This blogger, whom I have become completely addicted to, wrote the best article I've read on the subject. It deals with only one of the several lawsuits filed, but the points he makes are real thought-provokers.

    Sorry for being such a shameless pimp, but I really think people who are interested in this Apple story would be interested in this article.

    (I got the link from MacSlash last weekend.)

    1. Re:Shameless link peddling by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The First Amendment is the First Amendment regardless of the content of the speech.

      Child pornographers in prison everywhere would beg to differ.

      --

      ---
      Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
      (I read with sigs off.)
  8. not a judgment on Apple's claims! by scbomber · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This ruling is solely concerned with whether the journalists are entitled to be protected from Apple's subpoena of their records. Quoting the ruling:

    "The order of this court does not go beyond the questions necessary to determine this motion seeking a protective order against that single subpoena, and it cannot and should not be read or interpreted more broadly," the judge said. "The court makes no finding as to the ultimate merits of Apple's claims, or any defenses to those claims. Those issues remain for another day."

  9. This spells the end of the magazine by mark-t · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Because nobody will want to tell them anything anymore, since they have no guarantee of identity protection.

    1. Re:This spells the end of the magazine by Shinzaburo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      We could only be so lucky. Honestly, I won't mind too much if this hubbub results in ThinkSecret and the rest of the rumor mill going belly-up. Much like the judge mentioned in his ruling, I don't believe the "information" those sites provide actually serves the public interest. If the prognosticating were half-way reliable, perhaps it might have value to those to need to make purchase decisions. But it's not half-way reliable, so there really isn't any value being provided.

      Those sites just take all the sizzle out of Apple's announcements, leaving people unnecessarily disappointed and let down. Good riddance to them.

    2. Re:This spells the end of the magazine by m50d · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think you misunderstand me. What I mean is, at what point do you become confident what you are saying is in the public interest enough to take it to a newspaper regardless of the NDA. Someone somewhere else raised the suggestion of a company getting its supplies from cheap third-world labour, but making its employees sign an NDA about it. That's the sort of thing I think the public ought to know, but with this ruling, would anyone be confident enough to take it to a paper?

      --
      I am trolling
  10. And yet, on the other hand... by techno-vampire · · Score: 4, Funny

    People who publish trade secrets that might hurt a company are forced to reveal their sources, but people who publish Top Secret documents are protected. (Anybody remember that stupid ruling on The Pentagon Papers?) I guess that proves that businesses are more important than National Security.

    --
    Good, inexpensive web hosting
    1. Re:And yet, on the other hand... by aristotle-dude · · Score: 3, Insightful
      That's because freedom of press is supposed to protect against government abuses. Without a free press, it is difficult to keep the government accountable to the people.

      What you seem to be confused about is that companies, like people have rights which have to be considered.

      --
      Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
    2. Re:And yet, on the other hand... by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 3, Informative

      There is an exemption in the law for information that is in the public interest; as such, the whole conviction/pardon thing would be ignoring the law, not following it.

      In other words, the papers did NOT break the law, since they fell under what is commonly called a "whistleblower" exemption.

      --

      ---
      Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
      (I read with sigs off.)
    3. Re:And yet, on the other hand... by cgranade · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No, they don't. The Constitution does not protect the right of a corporation to do anything. There is no fundamental right to make money, to go into business, or anything similar. Witness false advertising laws, which are wholly consistant with free press and free speech. The myth of corporate "rights" is a recent one, and somewhat devestating. Even if you feel that corporations should have rights, there is no fundamental document stating explicitly which rights they do have. This means that any judge ruling on the topic has to navigate solely through precidence, and may override it at whim. Objectively evaluating the standards by which a corporation should be held is damn near impossible.

      So, in short, no. Corporations do not presently have rights, but have a set of a sort of "virtual rights," which exist only in court precedent, and in convention. There is no formalism for corporate rights.

      As a side note, if you believe that corporate abuse is any less deadly in today's world than government abuse, or even that they aren't in many ways the same thing, I have a nice bridge to sell you.

      --

      #define DRM chmod 000

  11. Re:Viva La Revolution by aristotle-dude · · Score: 4, Informative
    I don't think you understand how the commmon law legal system. Laws under common law are not codified but rather interpreted based on the spirit of the law and past decisions by previous judges.

    This helps to ensure that the legal system cannot simply apply the letter of the law and steamroll over everyone. It also helps to prevent people from using laws to shield illegal activity.

    --
    Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
  12. Good! by pair-a-noyd · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The employees stole and disclosed company trade secrets. The broke the law and are criminals, they should be treated as criminals.

    The people that published this material are accessories to a crime and should also be treated as criminals.

    This isn't about free speech, this is about a crime.

    1. Re:Good! by Derling+Whirvish · · Score: 2, Insightful
      The people that published this material are accessories to a crime and should also be treated as criminals.

      Like those here on Slashdot who published copies of DeCSS in violation of the DMCA?

    2. Re:Good! by Dirtside · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The employees stole and disclosed company trade secrets. The broke the law and are criminals, they should be treated as criminals.

      The people that published this material are accessories to a crime and should also be treated as criminals.

      Not quite. The problem is that before the identities of the sources are revealed, there's no way to know whether those sources broke the law in acquiring the information. "But the only way the information could have gotten out is if someone at Apple deliberately leaked it!" is your obvious response, but it's not true. Information can leak from a company due to incompetence as well as malice, and if it does, you're SOL as far as trade secrets are concerned.

      So in other words, let's say that the judge forces the bloggers to reveal their sources... and the sources turn out not to be Apple employees, and committed no crime in acquiring the information. Whoops! If there were any evidence that a crime had been committed, then the judge would be (both legally and morally) justified in forcing the reveal. But since no crime has been reported, he can't rightfully force the reveal.

      The judge made a bad call.

      --
      "Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
    3. Re:Good! by Sanity · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Like those here on Slashdot who published copies of DeCSS in violation of the DMCA?
      No, you don't understand. You see, Apple can do no wrong, and thus we must agree with this decision. DeCSS is a completely different issue because Apple isn't involved in that.
  13. The Rule of Law by Viking+Coder · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Saying that no one has the right to publish information that could have been provided only by someone breaking the law

    It's about time Robert Novak was thrown in jail for outing Valerie Plame!

    Oh - we're just talking about Apple insiders? Who gives a fuck?

    --
    Education is the silver bullet.
  14. Re:Yeah, its great by daveschroeder · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yeah, but this isn't about those that violated an NDA, it is about those who revealed information that they obtained from someone who violated an NDA.

    Yeah. That, and the small issue that they might have broken a law doing so.

    What property right justifies the application of restrictions imposed by an agreement on someone that never signed that agreement?

    The fact that the UTSA says that revealing information that can reasonably be believed to have been obtained as the result of the breach of a binding confidentiality agreement is prohibited. Do you understand that NDAs or any confidentiality agreements would be meaningless if all you had to do was leak them to someone else, who in turn publicly leaks them, all with no repurcussions of any kind nor any recourse for the employer?

  15. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  16. Leaking a press release early is not Espionage. by guidryp · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Espionage is when Huawei steals Cisco source and uses it in its own routers.

    Leaking a press release early is just more press. It is a farce and I would boycott apple if I was actually in the habit of buying their products in the first place.

  17. My Best Interest by buckhead_buddy · · Score: 2, Funny

    My two "Mac the Knife" coffee mugs from the rumor column in MacWeek will probably rake in more on eBay after this ruling.

    Gosh, I feel so sorry that the rumor mongers secrets will be revealed when they didn't want them to be, but it's all in my best interest of making money!

    Hmm, where have I heard that argument before. :-)

  18. Re:-1, Flamebait, Astorturfing, and Wrong by daveschroeder · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Your entire post is irrelevant to the topic at hand, but I'll pick just this piece:

    You're wrong in a million ways, but the most important one is this. This particular expression of speech does not in any way present a clear and present danger to life and limb and consequently, it not only "ought" to be protected, it is protected according to the Supreme Court of the United States of America. Threatening someone's profit margin is not the same thing as threatening their safety.

    The speech IS protected. No one is going to throw the proprietors of Think Secret, PowerPage, or AppleInsider in jail over their speech.

    What is NOT protected are their sources, who are breaking currently in force, legally binding confidentiality agreements to reveal the information, and the fact that the web sites, by publishing said information, are also in violation of the Uniform Trade Secrets Act, versions of which have been adopted by 45 states including California.

    This is not about speech. This is not about the right to blog. And if you think it's about the employees' right to "speak" about topics covered under confidentiality agreement, apparently someone forgot to tell them, and you, that they don't have to work there if they have that little respect for good-faith agreements with their own employer.

  19. Re:Yeah, its great by Leo+McGarry · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Dumbest comment ever.

    "I think it's telling that Apple chose to file suit in California, the very same state that Richard Nixon is buried in."

    "I think it's telling that Apple's complaint was printed on paper, the very same material that Hitler used to wipe his ass!"

    Well, guess what, Sparky ... it's not telling. The law is what it is. It's written down. It's not tainted because some people you don't like decided to use it. And you say absolutely nothing about somebody's case when you draw such an unbelievably flimsy association solely for the purposes of inducing an emotional response.

    Dumbest comment ever.

  20. either way by fred+fleenblat · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've been using Apple's products since the Apple II+ way back in 1980. 25 years of Apple hardware, software, programming, and sharing the goodness of the Apple way with friends and family. I've always had a warm fuzzy feeling for the company, their employees, and their products.

    Over the last couple of weeks, though, the feeling started to fade. It's completely gone now.

    Apple is just another company.

    You'd think after the cancer scare Jobs would have mellowed out.

  21. Re:-1, Flamebait, Astorturfing, and Wrong by mark-t · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Actually, all that actually exists is the _allegation_ that the sources broke the law. There is no cold hard evidence to support that fact beyond Apple's inability to imagine that the sources didn't actually work for them and may have obtained the information themselves via another leak where the law _was_ broken.

  22. Re:Yeah, its great by ratsnapple+tea · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Oh, come off it. Revealing the unethical and borderline murderous behavior of tobacco companies serves a clear and immediate public interest. What "public interest" does it serve to protect the guy who leaks confidential information about the next Power Mac revision?

    As the judge wrote, an interested public is NOT the same as a public interest.

  23. Re:Yes, he's already held in contempt of court. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Yes, it does. Robert Novak is being held in contempt of court for not revealing his sources, and very well might go to jail for it.

    story here
    RYOFL (Read Your Own Fucking Link), Mr. AC. Robert Novak is conspicuously not being asked to name his sources, much less being held in contempt for refusing to do so. But two other reporters are.
  24. Re:Yeah, its great by jkabbe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Freedom of the press should not extend to:
    1) actively soliciting people to break their non-disclosure contracts
    2) publishing information which you actually know to be protected by a non-disclosure contract covering the person who gave you the information

    There is no property right at stake here. The first place you start is tortious interference with a contractual duty. Then you get into trade secrets and it gets a bit more complicated.

    This is a terrible day for anyone who thinks that being a "journalist" should give you a free ride to break any contract or trade secret laws you want in the name of "freedom".

  25. Use common sense by Lord+Kano · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I had to sign a confidentiality agreement with a former employer. Namely because we had some rich, famous and influential customers. It was company lore that the President of the company ordered a subordinate to violate a federal law because he was having a Senator over to his house for a visit. I'm being intentionally vague here because I'm still bound by the aforementioned agreement.

    The point that I'm making here is that if I was going to give specifics or name names, I'd be smart enough to do it anonymously. If you're going to violate any secrecy agreements that you've signed, be smart enough to get a throw-away email address or use an anonymous remailer.

    LK

    --
    "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
  26. Re:Constitution vs. Judge by aiken_d · · Score: 4, Insightful

    By your argument it should be legal to yell the proverbial "fire" in a crowded theater, or to lie to potential investors about a company's finances.

    Heck, by your argument trade secret law is unconstitutional, and "top secret" information should be legally publishable willy-nilly.

    You've confused two issues here. First, freedom of speech has never covered the publication of stolen (or secret) documents; it is the freedom to say what you think and to communicate freely. That does not mean you're free to consipire to kill people; it means that you can express unpopular opinions (or at least it used to; today that's not so clear).

    Second, you're touching on public interest, ala Watergate. The judge also wrote a cogent bit about that and how there's a difference between public interest in corruption in govenment and, as he put it, an "interested public" that's just hungry for details about whether the next iCrap will be pink or purple.

    Cheers
    -b

    --
    If I wanted a sig I would have filled in that stupid box.
  27. Business plans are NOT speech ... by adzoox · · Score: 2, Insightful

    People are trying to term these trade secrets like they are something that is just common water cooler talk and newspaper articles.

    These are business plans, schematics, insider corporate strategy NOT speech - these items are CAD drawings, supplier contracts ... NOT speech .... so no speech was abridged ... and besides Congress didn't make a law. A judge ruled and enforced the law.

    --
    Yell & scream & rant & rave... it's no use... you need a shaaaave ~ Bugs Bunny
  28. Don't break your word. by H01M35 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Maybe, and please understand, I'm as much of an Apple fanboy as the next guy, but I'm disappointed that Apple's winning this.

    I'm even more disappointed that they're pursuing it. I am in favor of the freedom of the press. I can't possibly know all the details, including what sort of agreement Nick DePlume has with whoever his source is.

    Seems like somebody told him some stuff and he published it on the web. It must have pretty good stuff. But if Nick told the Apple mole, who I'll call Gerald, that he wouldn't reveal Gerald's name to anyone, then he shouldn't. Don't break your word. Should you break the law to keep your word? People have to answer that question themselves based on their values and character, but I'd say yes. Even if it means jail.

    Now, in order to play both sides of the fence here, the Mole at Apple, or one of their associated companies - whether it's a manufacturer, or some dude at an Ad Agency - has signed an NDA, then he should be living by it. Again, don't break your word.

    But I have a hard time with this fishing expedition. And that being said, I didn't visit thinksecret much before, but the publicity that is being generated keeps me checking the place out. I'm not sure if that was Apple's intention, but there you go.

    You want me to get to the point? Here it is:

    Stamp out leaks internally. Don't sue fans.

    Having said that, I'm still going to recommend to everybody in sight that they wait until Tiger (which has been announced) comes out, then buy the 12" iBook with the airport card and max out the ram. Or a Mini. Depending. Unless you want to run Linux on it. In which case buy it whenever.

    The other thing I was wondering about - TFA calls it a criminal act, releasing that sort of info. Is it a criminal matter or a civil one?

    -Holmes.

  29. Re:A refreshing victory for corporate synchophants by dr.badass · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Look, the judge may have a point but celebrating the victory of a corporation over an individual just seems fucked up to me.

    You seem to be under the mistaken impression that an individual is incapable of breaking the law, or is at least "less able" to break the law than a corporation.

    Also, Think Secret (I'm not sure about the others) is operated by The dePlume Organization, a limited-liabilty corporation.

    The 'free speech' issue isn't' about wether or not you can go blabbing your companies trade secrets, it's about wether or not someone else, someone who has not signed an NDA or anything else should be able to re-spout them.

    The law says that you cannot do this. The judge is doing his job by enforcing the law. Your gripe is with the law, not with the case.

    These people, who are not under contract should be able (I think) to say whatever they want without repercussion even if someone would be harmed by the common knowledge.

    To do that would mean throwing out libel and slander laws, as well. Freedom of speech (or freedom of the press, which is more accurate in these cases) is not an absolute right.

    But it seems to me that simply telling the truth ought to be protected under the constitution, if you don't sign an NDA.

    I would not describe the printing of illegally obtained information for a profit to be "simply telling the truth".

    Yet, here these people are being forced to A) name their source, or B) Go to jail (or something). They're being punished for telling the truth about something, despite the fact that they signed no NDA and were not under any contract.

    Apple was not, and is not, seeking damages against these sites. They were seeking information, and now the court has ordered them to give up that information. If they do not, they can appeal, or be held in contempt of court. I sincerely doubt that they will choose not to appeal this, but I doubt even more that they will choose to ignore the court's order should it not be overturned.

    --
    Don't become a regular here -- you will become retarded.
  30. Re:Yeah, its great by ratsnapple+tea · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If you think it should only require that broad and self-referential notion of "public interest" to relieve journalists of having to reveal their sources when it's obvious they were privy to a crime, then it's hard to imagine any circumstances under which you'd think they should be forced to name their sources. Surely you don't believe there exist no such circumstances?

  31. Re:Yeah, its great by daveschroeder · · Score: 2, Informative

    If someone tells you something that they shouldn't have told you (because they would be violating their NDA), but fails to tell you that they are violating their NDA, does that make you a criminal for reporting it?

    Possibly.

    "[...] the Uniform Trade Secrets Act, versions of which have been adopted by about 45 states, including California, prevents third parties from exposing information knowingly obtained from sources bound by confidentiality agreements.

    Just because you don't have a relationship with the company doesn't necessarily immunize you, if you publish what you reasonably should have known was a trade secret," said [Andrew Beckerman-Rodau, who runs the intellectual property program at Boston's Suffolk University Law School]. "The First Amendment has been asserted more and more against intellectual property rights, but it's not faring well. Most courts haven't accepted it." (source)

    They broke a law? Which one? Any evidence?

    The judge didn't rule on any of that today. But assuming they did get their information from someone under a confidentiality agreement at Apple or a contractor, which, while circumstantial, seems overwhelmingly clear, then yes, they may have broken a law. The judge today said that REGARDLESS of whether any law has been broken - which is yet to be decided - the information at issue in this case does NOT constitute information in a clear public interest, and therefore, the web sites/journalists in question are NOT protected by journalist shield laws.

  32. Re:Constitution vs. Judge by russotto · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Heck, by your argument trade secret law is unconstitutional, and "top secret" information should be legally publishable willy-nilly. You've confused two issues here. First, freedom of speech has never covered the publication of stolen (or secret) documents; it is the freedom to say what you think and to communicate freely. That does not mean you're free to consipire to kill people; it means that you can express unpopular opinions (or at least it used to; today that's not so clear).

    If the top secret information has made it to some random journalist, it's probably too late to keep the secret. And trade secret law IS unconstitutional if it gags those who have not agreed to the confidentiality agreements.

    As for free speech not covering the publication of "stolen (or secret)" documents, you might want to get acquainted with New York Times v. United States, 403 U.S. 713 (1971), better known as the Pentagon Papers case.

  33. Re:FUCK YOUR WHORE OF A MOTHER by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Your interest in my mother has been noted, but you aren't her type.

  34. Re:-1, Flamebait, Astorturfing, and Wrong by Slack3r78 · · Score: 5, Informative
    I've seen this argument made by yourself and several other posters, and I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

    From the Judge's opinion, posted on the EFF's site:

    The posting by Mr. O'Grady contained an exact copy of a detailed drawing of "Asteroid" created by Apple. The drawing was taken from a confidential set of slides clearly labeled "Apple Need-to-Knox Confidential." In addition, technical specifications were copied verbatim from the confidential slide set and posted on the online site. These postings by Mr. O'Grady were spread over three days, November 19, 22 and 23, 2004. The Court is convinced by Apple's presentation, including the materials produced in camera that this action has passed the necessary thresholds for discovery to proceed.


    In short, Apple had strong enough evidence that this information wasn't just accidently leaked to convince the court that trade secret laws had been violated and for the subpeonas to go forward.

  35. Everything breaks the law now days by blanks · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "no one has the right to publish information that could have been provided only by someone breaking the law"

    Naturally these days everything and anything breaks the law, and it comes down to who haves the most money.

  36. you are all freaking me out horribly by justins · · Score: 2

    Am I the only one who reads the reactions of the fanboy multitudes to this and thinks about running out to buy a gun and join the Libertarian party or something?

    --
    Now before I get modded down, I be to remind whoever might read this that what I am saying is FACT. - bogaboga
  37. I can't help but wonder "If it have been CNN..." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Back in 1995 Steve Young of CNN told me "CNN protects its sources." I was on the phone with him discussing having CNN send a camera crew to interview me the next day.

    I had just told him there was no way he could put me on the air. Intel was at that time reeling from the consequences from the fiasco that was the math flaw in the Pentium processor.

    What I had in my possession made that math flaw look like a minor hang nail.

    I had trade secret documents from Intel, legally released to me under non-disclosure agreement (since expired, so now the tale can be told).

    The contents of those documents revealed flaws in Intel 486 processors that basically rendered them "Unsafe at any speed".

    Countless users were suffering crashes, data loss, God alone only knew what forms and totals of lost productivity, revenue, opportunities were being wracked up daily due to the serious flaws. And even Microsoft was being unfairly painted with creating even less reliable software than they genuinely deserved to be excoriated for (the infamous BSOD's weren't always their fault...)

    Steve was trying to convince me that "the public good" out weighed my honoring Intel's non-disclosure agreement.

    He told me that I could mail the documents to him and that "CNN protects its sources."

    Here it is 10 years later and I wonder, how many folks would agree with Steve and how many will support my decision to not hold Intel accountable for their abuses of the public trust.

    The simple math flaw had reportly cost Intel $600 million for a few million chips shipped. The cost of a recall for the far more serious flaws in the 100's of millions of 486 processors shipped could very well have bankrupted Intel, many 486 chips were soldered to their boards.

    Or at the very least have damaged their reputation so badly they would have had a very hard time regaining the public's trust.

    I just wanted to say, the Judge today served up a nice fat juicy sound bite for the press to report. But he's wrong. The right of large corporations to protect their trade secrets is not absolute.

    I also can't help but wonder what the Judge in today's case would have had to say to CNN if I had been at risk in breaking my non-disclosure agreement with Intel?

    Apple has their problems, and if enough customers are persistent enough they generally own up to them and take responsibility for making things right. And today's ruling didn't cover the kinds of information being disclosed that I had from Intel.

    But if Apple rides success with their iPod's upwards and loses the ability to take responsibility, I hope today's ruling doesn't come back to bite us in the ass.

    Yeah I know, sounds great coming from the guy that covered Intel's ass when he had the chance.

    But for a moment, just a moment there, I was tempted to mail those documents.

    What motivated me to silence wasn't a fear of CNN being forced to turn me over. No, it was the advice I got from the local Intel distributor: if anything about the 486 showed up on CNN, Intel would act like I had released it to CNN, whether Intel could prove it or not.

    Turns out, the company I worked for had already gone to Intel and covered their asses... (and Intel paid them off very nicely too)

    After today's ruling, I wouldn't even be tempted.

    Bravo Judge, on this day that will live on in infamy for the actions of a few in Spain this date 3/11/4, you have indeed struck a blow to protect truth, justice and the American way.

  38. Re:Compelled testimony is an offense to freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative
    Just as I reserve the right not to testify to incriminate myself, I reserve the right not to testify to incriminate another.

    No. What you think you reserve and what is codified in law are two different things. In fact you have to testify even if it incriminates someone other than yourself or you could be held in contempt of court. There are a handful exceptions to this, such as you can't be forced to testify against your spouse. But for the most part your wrong, you don't have that right, you never did, so STFU cus your entire post is crap.

  39. Re:Zeig Heil apple! by eclectro · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't understand how apple is harmed by, let's say, the reveiling of a sub 500.00 low powered apple?

    I think there is more to it than that. I honestly don't think that in this instance any thunder was stolen and any harm was done.

    What I think Apple is trying to do is weed out their "mole" before next time when it may really matter. if a secret is let loose far enough in advance it could give competitors a chance to piece together a competing product for release at the same time. This could have serious implications for a company.

    Besides that, by taking care of the insider now, it puts all of the other company employees/contractors on notice that they need to decide where their loyalties are while working for Apple.

    Apple certainly thinks that taking all this negative publicity now is an investment that will pay off in the future. Probably akin to lancing a boil.

    It certainly could be risky for Apple though, as they do employ people arguably from a 'free thinking' part of the country, and the next mac rumor might show up in a plain brown envelope that is completely untraceable, just to 'prove' Apple wrong on this lawsuit.

    --
    Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
  40. Trade Secrets and You! by tono · · Score: 5, Informative

    As others have already pointed out, there's plenty of evidence that the 3 webpublishers knew well in advance the information they were given by their sources was protected under an NDA. That's not what I'm going to talk about, or freedom of the press. I'm all for it, my wife is a newspaper reporter for chrissakes. No I'm going to talk about the concept of trade secrets and how it applies to our capitalist economy.

    Trade secrets are inventions,(new products) and revisions to existing products, if there are more things that might fall under the definition, they don't really matter in this case so don't flame me for omitting a few. If a company invents something(ipod) or revises a currently shipping company product(new g5 powerbook, new powermacs, etc) they are allowed to issue NDAs to their employees to keep their traps shut about them with good reason. If company x finds out about the new products before Apple in this case is ready to release it, and company x copies product and releases at the same time before patents have been issued, then Apple is screwed and loses revenue because of it.

    As you may or may not know, under capitalism companies generally invent and innovate new products so that they themselves can gain the revenue from their research. With no trade secrets or NDAs there is no longer an incentive to do research as a company and capitalism fails.

    With that out of the way, the judge was right to back Apple, if he hadn't many other companies would be severely put in a pickle fiscally by employees leaking detailed specs to other companies. Our economy would be in shambles, and you would all be out of jobs. Granted there is a bit of a slippery slope implied there but thats the fundamental logic behind the case.

    The fact that people are upset about Apple getting a big boost in this stage of the case is absolutely astonishing to me. Freedom woohoo and all but there are limits to every freedom, press, speech, right to arms, every single one of them. The websites in question and the sources should be punished, for different reasons, the sources for breech of contract and the websites for publishing information they knew to be acquired in an illegal manner.

    --
    cheese logs keep my wang warm at night.
  41. Re:Yeah, its great by Leo+McGarry · · Score: 2, Funny

    By that reasoning, reporters should have blanket immunity against speeding tickets. Because you never know. They could be speeding in pursuit of a story!

    You're not doing very well tonight with your commenting. Maybe it would be a good idea for you to take a little time off, maybe go have some pie.

    You'll get your groove back, I'm sure of it.

  42. Re:Offtopic...? by Maserati · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "...who has broken no laws, I might add"

    mmmm.... Well, Think Secret is somewhat of an accessory-after-the-fact. If an NDA was violated - and Apple did show that the leaked information was both very detailed and clearly marked confidential - then a crime has been committed. If a crime has been committed then the (alleged) victim has a right to pursue the criminal through the courts. Even a New York Times or Washington Post reporter would have been required to turn over their source if this fact pattern had applied.

    Some people are offended at any restriction on the individual's right to say absolutely anything they want to [1]. That's fine. I just want to hear them make the case for a mandate of a totally transparent society, it's usually pretty funny. An absolute freedom of speach means a total lack of privacy. My usual argument is the classic 'give me your Social Security number', and follow any good defence of a refusal with 'if someone stole your info, should he be allowed to tell me ?'

    Yes, that was a strawman - and they always need a brain - but it's locally scoped. And I wanted an excuse to make a point. And a reuctio ad absurdum, not that ther's anything wrong with that one.

    Another argumaent in favor of this ruling is the fact that an NDA is a contract. 'If you promise not to tell anyone,w e'll tell you something' plus a signature make a contract. Courts exist to enforce contracts. If the court didn't demand the production of the offender then the public should have be outraged.

    Most people complaining are ignoring a LOT of details, the others can't support the implications of their whole position.

    [1] Any free society desperately needs this vocal minority, however annoyon gthey sometimes are.

    --
    Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1992-1951
  43. Re:-1, Flamebait, Astorturfing, and Wrong by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 2, Informative

    Just so we are clear on what you are talking about. . . .

    Do you have any idea how serious perjury is? The punishment of perjury is SEVERE, much worse than just refusing to testify and being held in contempt of court.

    So what are the chances of not getting caught? Well, you're basically putting your life into the hands of someone you know does not respect agreements or signed contracts.

    Oh, and there's no statute of limitations on Perjury. If the truth comes out in ten or twenty years, you can still be prosecuted in court as a criminal. And you're doing this to protect someone in a civil trial? So they won't lose their job?

    The main reason not to engage in perjury is because it's wrong to bear false witness. But there are a lot of very serious reasons why it's not smart.

    But don't take my word for it. Ask any lawyer about Perjury, the risks involved, the penalties, etc.

    --
    It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
  44. Re:-1, Flamebait, Astorturfing, and Wrong by dr.badass · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Can you cite case law where this actually happened and was ruled illegal?

    No, and I suspect it never has actually happened as such. The phrase itself comes from a Supreme Court ruling (Schenck v. US, 1919) concerning the publication of Socialist propaganda during World War I.

    If I remember correctly, many parts of the ruling have been overturned or supersceded, but the particular principle, that free speech is not absolute, still stands.

    In fact, I'd say that speech is more protected now than it was at that ruling, when sedition laws were in full effect. Printing anti-government propaganda is a national pasttime these days, but back then, it'd get you thrown in jail.

    You have the right to speak your mind, your beliefs, your opinions, your lies, your truths, your propaganda, you even have the right to tell people to rape and kill and steal and overthrow the government. You do not have the right to willfully endanger the lives of others by causing false panic or inciting immediate criminal behavior.

    I am not a lawyer, but I play one on Slashdot.

    --
    Don't become a regular here -- you will become retarded.
  45. Re:Oh, really? by Trurl's+Machine · · Score: 2, Informative

    Go figure. When's the last time you saw a reporter prosecuted, jailed, or, heck, just plain ol' censured (much less, censored) for revealing classified information?

    Oh, please. Just because you were not interested in such cases prior to the Apple vs bloggers trial, it doesn't mean such cases did not exist! Check this link. If you don't bother to click on it, here's a brief quote: "Three times this summer, judges have held journalists in contempt of court for refusing to name their anonymous sources (...) Since 1984, a total of 14 journalists have been jailed ? some for only a few hours ? for refusing to comply with court orders demanding that they reveal sources or other information, according to the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press."

    I'm looking on this case from across the pond. In Europe, we tend to have specialized law codes for, ummm, basically anything. We have the Press Code, Labor Code, Family Code etc., while you in the USA rather put anything into just civil law of the "someone versus someone" scheme. Anyway, European press codes both guarantee certain privileges to journalists and guarantee that journalists have to obey certain rules of professional ethics. In Europe it's simple: if you break your professional ethics - you're out of protection, buddy. In general, journalist ethics means that you can't break the law just for sake of getting a scoop - you can be protected by the code if you did it in genuine public interest. From European point of view, this ruling was not a surprise, actually the judge said just what we have wrtitten in our law regarding the freedom of press.

  46. Re:I can't help but wonder "If it have been CNN... by macjim · · Score: 3, Informative

    If you had read the judge's words (or a judge then saying the same) you would have been encouraged to believe that CNN would not release your name. "Unlike the whistleblower who discloses a health, safety or welfare hazard affecting all, or the government employee who reveals mismanagement or worse by our public officials, (the enthusiast sites) are doing nothing more than feeding the public's insatiable desire for information," Judge Kleinberg wrote. Given that Intel's dodgy chips affected the user's welfare, your name would have been protected. Of course, that would not stop Intel from finding you through other investigations - as you suggest they would have.