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PlayStation Sales Halted?
Narf Narf writes "According to Japan Today, the U.S. District Court in Oakland, California, has ordered Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. and its U.S. unit to pay $90.7 million in damages to Immersion Corp. for patent infringement over controllers used with PlayStation game consoles. In the ruling handed down Thursday, the federal court also ordered Sony Computer Entertainment and Sony Entertainment America Inc. to stop selling the PlayStation and PlayStation 2 game consoles using Dualshock controllers as well as more than 40 game software products." Update: 03/28 04:51 GMT by Z : ...which was followed immediately by an injunction, to allow Sony time for an appeal, and a compulsory licensing agreement.
Would it not have been easier for Sony to acquire the [Immersion Corp.] company before this mess happened?
from the you'd-think-they'd-have-thought-that-through dept.
You can say that again.
Not sure if this was because of too much confidence on Sony's end, but generally this would be the perfect example of a case worth settling out of court.
What exactly is the patent? Is it on something like "input devices using vibration technology to provide tactile feedback in applications" or something like that? And if that's the case, wouldn't Nintendo's Rumble Pak easily be prior art? I can't help but notice they haven't sued Nintendo yet (at least to my knowledge).
back when they first invented it, it was most likely something amazing and kick ass.
Small potatoes.
Why is slashdot posting a lawsuit of this magnitude but failing to post anything about the world famous (and more relevant) Lexar Lawsuit worth over $460 million and will cause a massive disruption in the supply/demand equations currently applied to the significantly growing flash USB key and card memory market?
Your ignorance is infinitely greater than you realize.
I don't think removing a motor with a bit of lead attached will break any games
I can't think of a title where the vibration is necessary for the gameplay.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
" If this doesn't prove the US Patent system needs some overhauling, then I don't know what does. Hopefully this will get the big corporations involved in changing patent law, but for the better?"
No it just proves that:
1-Slashdotters don't read the patent.
2-Slashdotters favour a knee-jerk response.
3-Slashdotters don't care about one and two...so there, NYAH!
Nintendo paid to have the 'rumble' technology developed by this company. While Microsoft avoided lawsuit by "licensing" it from them the only way MS knows how. Buy into them. Sony has just kept thumbing their nose, and its gonna hurt them to the tune of $90 million. Assuming Sony doesn't win some "its not the samething" patent appeal. I expect this to be in our court system well into the next decade. I mean come on! It is cheaper for Sony to spend $90 million on lawyers to keep this in the courts over the next 5 years than it is to pay the $90 million now.
A controller that vibrates isn't exactly a logical thing. Sure, many things that seem obvious NOW were at one time clever inspiration on the part of people, which then had to undertake considerable time and expense to bring to market.
It's one thing to even think of something, and its a whole other to design and ramp up a feasible way of manufacturing and selling such an invention.
The patent is completely valid and numerous manufacturers have licensed it for their use. Sony should've settled out of court.
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Metal Gear Solid, (The first one).
Granted it isn't really neccesary, but it does help immerse you in the game.
Two Roommates and a Boyfriend, updates Monday, Wednesday, and Friday
do you have access to information that we dont? Please share. In almost every one of these kinds of cases the company that holds the patent does in fact go to the company and attempts to get them to license it. In almost every one of these kinds of cases, the company does in fact license the patent unless for some reason their lawyers think they can get out of it.
Apparently sony thought they could, immersion sued, and the judge ruled that immersion was right.
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How many companies need to have multi-million dollar lawsuits against them before they realize that there are _no winners_ when it comes to software patents and the incompetent USPTO? If they were smart, they would stop embracing software patents with grand visions of monopoly and realize they can't win. Someone will always have a patent on something that they are doing. Instead they shoul start spending the millions that will eventually be awarded to "XYZ PAtentbully Corp LLC." for some thing that THEY are infringing on, and destroy the software patent monster that they created. It's easy... just fill a bag full of millions and give it to the lobbyists like they did when they got them pushed through to begin with.
You're confusing copyright and patent (don't feel bad, everyone else on this site does too). Patents are mutually exclusive and broad. They could have copyrighted their design, and sony still copyrighted theirs.
However, this might show how low the threshold for patents is these days.
Patents cover the invention, not the effect of the invention.
A controller that vibrates isn't exactly a logical thing.
Sure it is.
It's pretty much a degnerate case of a force feedback controller, which is something that has been in development for ages. It's an idea that's obvious to anyone even remotely clueful in this area.
The patent is completely valid and numerous manufacturers have licensed it for their use.
You know this how?
Besides being an obvious idea, and therefore non-patentable there are tons of other reasons this patent could be ruled invaild.
Here's a link showing prior art in 1985.
Sony should be able to fill the courtroom with examples of force feedback/vibration prior to the filing date of this patent. It should be easy to show that vibrating controllers came about from a simple evolution of designs that were already out there, showing no real "invention" just the packing of pre-existing technology in an obvious package.
Life is too short to proofread.
Didn't the Rumble Pack come out in 1996? I guess that might not violate these patents (I never owned one, anyone who does...does it have more than one speed?) but does the big N have a patent on that? If they do, can't they modify their patent to get rid of this Immersion BS for the good of everyone? I thought you could do that with patents..."update" them...
This means basically nothing.
Is Sony notorious for infringing upon patents?
Sony's notorious for being retarded, but I expect they'll ultimately win this case. They should be able to show tons of prior art in this case. See my previous post.
Life is too short to proofread.
i personally CARE for the dualshock, i even play some titles on xbox with my playstation controller ..
....
...
...
... hey if i could have a few buttons for the legs (2 pedals + some other stuff)
.... .. but to be safe i might just buy an extra one :)
... these should be "open source" things that should be used and improved by anyone .....
while the xbox has a good idea of having a long travel analog button at the pointing fingers, it makes the hube mistake of wasting 2 fingers just hanging below
sony has all buttons on the controller 8bit sensitive (256 levels of sensitivity) while as far as i know the S-type does not
also having the 2 joys in an asimmetryc manner is a baad-baad idea, however you can get used to it
the dual shock is also half the weight (i go to the gym, so don't start with i'm not strong enough to hold that S-brick stuff)
i think something like the dual controller, with S-style pull triggers. +6 other buttons for the 2x3 fingers would give a big kick to fighting games
or do i wish i was an octopus ?
well a bit off topic
i am upset, i have my duals, and probaly here in costa rica i will be able to buy them for some time
and again, why to patent a HID (human interface device)
shame on that law system again
remember, a 2 paragraph article makes everyone on slashdot both intimately familiar with the specifics on a case, but also a patent lawyer.
ah to be 13 (or mentally 13) again...
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The buttons on the Xbox controller ARE also pressure sensitive to varying degrees. (As for the range of this sensitivity, I am unsure...and the black/white buttons do not appear to have it). The rear triggers on the Xbox controller are also fully analog axes, not the button arrangement you have on the Playstation controllers. I personally care for the Xbox S controller. I use the standard S and the Joytech Neo-S...both sturdier and more comfortable than any of the PS1/PS2 controllers I have. Why mention that you go to the gym with regards to the weight of the Xbox controller? It may be your personal preference to like the reduced weight, but suggesting the Xbox controllers require a good workout to pick up is slightly daft ;)
Nice weather for penguins...
Is the truth now regarded as flamebait?
Yes, 99 percent of the time you could substitute -1 Flamebait with +1 Truth. However, he might have avoided that moderation if he put his point across a little more eloquently.
As for the idea that Xbox controllers are designed exclusively for Halo, that's as much as a gross exaggeration as 'Halo is the only good game for the Xbox'. Yes, playing Halo with the Xbox feels bloody comfortable and natural, but I don't know how this equates to it being unusable for every other game, however. Come on, the differences between the three console controllers aren't that radical; look at which fingers are assigned to which buttons/pads/sticks and it's mostly spatial alignment and positioning that varies.
Funnily enough, I quite like the original Xbox controller and it's only second to the DC one.
Mother, do you think they'll like this sig?
This is totally offtopic, but that post reminds me of a conversation I had with a professor a while ago. We were commenting about how little the frosh understood computers, and he made the comment that many of them saw a keyboard as a device to display characters on a monitor. This perception (which I agree is common) makes it difficult to teach the students UNIX or programming, because the students don't see the keyboard as something that can give commands to the computer. You would be further ahead thinking of a keyboard as an input device that is typically used to enter text. Without limiting other uses that I'm not mentioning, that text can be displayed on a monitor, interpreted as instructions for the computer, or it can be the source code of a computer program.
Whoever corrects a mocker invites insult;
whoever rebukes a wicked man incurs abuse.
--Proverbs 9:7
"Well, actually, if Immersion is some mom-and-pop that's just trying to make a living and Sony really is infringing on some patent that isn't some B.S. patent, but rather something that really is a non-obvious original invention, then that really sucks, and Sony should pay licensing fees."
I don't follow why you think one set of laws should apply, or another, depending on the ownership structure of the company with the patent.
I share your contempt for patent protection applied to trivial inventions, but even then, I don't see how it takes away anyone's right to due process, or why it does not apply to everyone equally.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
To sum up your quote, they didn't patent force feedback, they've patented having a sensor to make sure that your force feedback doesn't push too hard. And this is not a logical extension of force feedback because...? Just because it uses intentionally complicated language doesn't mean that the concept isn't simple.
/. rhetoric. Some of the things they've patented are obvious extensions of the existing idea, and some have just mountains of prior art. Most are of the "with X" kind of patent, where they patent pretty much daily activities "with force feedback."
That's probably not what they're fighting over, though. It's probably one of the volumes of other patents that Immersion has recieved. Let's look at a random one, shall we? 6,563,487 describes using force feedback on the D-pad of a controller. It doesn't describe how this is any different than using force feedback on a button, but there it is. There is also force feedback for a knob (6,636,197) and the terrible idea of the vibrating touchpad (6,429,846). I guess that compliments their vibrating Laptop (6,822,635).
Hey, here is one... (6,693,622) a patent for a vibrating mass inside of a controller, granted on February 17, 2004. 2004? Was the patent examiner in a cave? Every console shipped with vibrating controllers years before this, in exactly the manner they describe.
There is mounds of prior art for a lot of this. The kickback in the guns in POW. Battletech centers. The wheel feedbacks in arcade and home games such as Hard Drivin', etc, etc.
The patent system is broken. This is not just
We need to stop allowing patents of ideas, not implementations. A battery would be the perfect example of a classic patent, as one would have listed out the copper and various other ingredients that went into it, the chemical reactions that take place, and so on. These days, it would just be listed as "a device that stores electrical charge," and left at that to sue everyone who makes batteries, capacitors, carpets, combs, and anything else that happens to eventually fall under that umbrella.
Heck, they patented force feedback over a computer network (6,859,819), last month, 2005. Isn't this what cybersex was supposed to be all about? Wasn't there already teledildontics at that point?
Though maybe I'm just bitter because I work at a company which made on one of the games on the list. But these patents ring bogus to me, and I applaud Sony's efforts to fight on everybody's behalf.
I'd also like to point out that just because someone has bought a license from SCO doesn't mean SCO has the right to sell a license. Just because Nintendo didn't fight against this doesn't mean that it is valid. And quite frankly, even if it is valid and holds up in court, it's still downright questionable. I'm guessing Immersion just set the cost of licensing the patents at a number smaller than the cost of fighting the patents in court.
The ______ Agenda
You had a playstation 1 in 1993?
The original xbox controllers DO suck; they're too big and they feel cheap. But the controller S feels a lot more natural and a lot better made.
Microsoft does seem to be pretty cheap when it comes to making hardware in general though.
Patenting forcefeedback tech is not the same thing as patenting the expression of an idea, there is actual physical hardware involved. Its not "obvious" , there may be prior art but if they invented the technology...more power to them. Just because we dont like the patent doesnt mean its not valid.
Sony is not a helpless babe here, they just have to settle their claim...and pay up some license fees.
It was not before they filed their patent. While in the "Patent Pending stage" Sony started using the Immersion technology. So Sony IS in violation of Immersion's patent. Many other companies have been licensing the technology for years. Why should Sony be allowed to skip free?
also having the 2 joys in an asimmetryc manner is a baad-baad idea, however you can get used to it ..
Wrong. T used parts of the control should be in the most accesible positions.
Most games today use analog control mainly. So the left analog stick should be in the main position.
The second stick is used less (except in FPS), so it should be in the secondary position.
PERIOD.
True. It's probably a version of the Rumble Pak they used in the N64 starting with Star Fox 64. If anyone remembers correctly, the N64 Rumble Pak was video gaming's first force feedback device.
The "Rumble Pack" itself is, and completely satisfied the requirements for the first patent pretty much to the letter. And as such prior art in actual consumer existance (not even simply on paper or in the process of having its patents pending), it should completely nullify said patent under any kind of scrutiny. I think at most, the only difference may be the fact that the rumble pack was either on or off (I don't know for a fact if there were variable signals sent to the pack, or if it was just rapidly sending the start/stop signals to mimic multiple intensity of the rumble feedback). Even if that is the only difference, you must be able to argue that this is clearly NOT "new", "inovative", or "non-intuitive" extension of the "Rumble Pack" technology. Heck, they WERE doing something which created the EXACT same effect, but instead of using a multi-state signal, they used rapid switching of on-off to create the same output, in effect pattenting something that is already being done, just not explained the same way. Like I said, I do not know for certain there were not multiple settings for the "Rumble Pack", a Nintendo engineer would need to speak out about that, all I remember was that there was a different output from when I was in a big explosion compaired to when I was simply hit with a laser...
The second patent 6,275,213 should not EVEN APPLY!!! It is a patent on a human computer INPUT device interface, in other words, it takes tactile feedback from the human, NOT the computer!!!. The dual shock controlers take input from the computer, NOT the human!!!
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
Nope, they're very specific implementations. IIRC the dual shock violated their patent for two rumble motors in a gamepad with two analog sticks. They also have patents for motors in certain kinds of joysticks, etc. The reason they can't have the broad rumble patent is because Nintendo has the paten on a single rumble motor in a gamepad, both the modular and fixed version.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
I mean, come on. Is there really a patent which describes an excentric weight on an axle of a motor? It almost sounds as stupid as the amazon's shopping cart licence thing: http://www.zdnet.co.uk/print/?TYPE=story&AT=391474 08-39020372t-10000024c
Isn't it time that the patent rules are updated so that patents only can contain "sensible" and "specific" text, including maybe the marketing intent of the device/product/idea? With millions and millions of patents, it's hard to do business without infringing any one of them.
Besides, why is Immersion comming with this just as they "happen" to need money? The first foce feedback controller by Sony was sold before 2000, why didn't Immersion do it then? I'd say they're too late.
If you can't do business properly, don't sue others for the fact that they can.