China PM Wants to Rule Global Tech With India

GrumpyDeveloper writes "As reported in this Wired story, China's prime minister said Sunday that China and India should work together to dominate the world's tech industry, bringing together Chinese hardware with Indian software.

Comments

Good.

[Seumas]

If American tech workers can't compete at the pennies-per-hour salary range, then they deserve to lose their jobs to the superior foreign technological forces. And stop whining about "oh, but I need to buy groceries" and "I need to save up for my child's college fund and my retirement".

At least, this is what I've heard.

I, for one, welcome our new high-school management retail wage-slave jobs of the future.

Re:Good.

[TomorrowPlusX]

You've GOT to look in the long term. Like 50 or 100 years.

When we, ( I mean America, the "West" and probably Japan ) no longer make anything, or design anything, but only consume, consume consume... we will fall apart.

Everything we buy will be designed in China or India, and made in China or India. Our universities (if they're still relevant, and haven't been shut down by the evangelical right-wing) will be educating Chinese or Indians in math, science, engineering, etc while we get degrees in "communications" and get jobs pushing paper around, so we can buy chinese products.

Such an aritficial economy can't support itself, and we'll *probably* collapse into some sort of 3rd world police state. Here I'm referring to America -- we've been tottering on being a plice state for like 50 years, an economic collapse would push us over the edge.

Meanwhile, China and India will have become what America was 40 years ago -- the Big Cheese, but *too* successful. Fat on money and industry, with those pesky (educated) workers demanding high falutin' things like medicare, wages, retirement packages, etc.

So what happens? The chinese will move their factories to the US, Japan, England, and so on! Our starving and uneducated populations will *want* these jobs, because its better than tending the rice patties, and everything will be A-O-K.

Now, in all seriousness, as far as I'm concerned, the Chinese and Indians deserve the success they are having right now. They're educated, and hard working. And we, we deserve to have our asses handed to us for our laziness and hubris. I just hope all this manages to happen without too much warfare.

Re:Good.

[Seumas]

Whether or not they deserve their success is not relevant, though. What's relevant is that American companies and politicians are selling-out the people they're supposed to represent. Other countries would not so willingly sell out their education forces and work forces so a company could turn a quick buck with cheap labor. They may or may not deserve the success, but it comes not because American workers dropped the ball. It comes because America was looking out for number one. And number one is corporate America's bottom line - not the American citizen's bottom line.

And I'm not sure what you mean by lazy. I work 80 hour weeks and have racked up enormous quantities of vacation time as I've never taken one. Most people I know are in a similar situation. I suppose you can call that lazy, but... whatever.

See, the idea is that in a capitalist society, everyone competes against everyone else. But a capitalist society has caused prices to increase to the point where workers need a certain wage to survive and thrive in their own country. Other countries, however, not having exactly what you'd call a "capitalist society", don't have a cheaper workforce. By nature of not having a capitalist society, they are able to provide cheaper costs for the capitalists. Go figure.

Really, I don't know what people expect the American worker to do. Are we expected to just start working for 20% of our current salaries, give up our health benefits, 401ks and stock options? If so, when do we get this offer? I've seen PLENTY of people laid off from their tech jobs in favor of foreign labor and none of them were given the option of "cut your salary our lose your job".

Re:Good.

[Hoi Polloi]

"we deserve to have our asses handed to us for our laziness"

According to every stat I've seen Americans are some of the hardest working people on earth. Maybe we work too hard based on our lack of vacations, crazed schedules, and heart disease.

Re:Good.

[ifwm]

"where workers need a certain wage to survive and thrive in their own country"

Not to cut up your post too much, but the above should read "WANT (or even demand) a certain wage" instead of need.

If people were forced to work 90 hours a week at a $7 hourly job to feed themselves they would. If you disagree, well, go without food for a wekk then get back to me.

So what if China wants to dominate anything? What have they EVER done right along these lines? The success they are currently having is because they emulate the West. If they are going to do what they intend, they need to innovate, not imitate.

Since China is primarily a society of followers, I doubt very seriously they'll be able to do anything more than make themselves a player, and then only because of the volume they can introduce.

India, on the other hand, well, I see them as a force. Which is probably why China is so eager to steal from... ahem work with them.

Re:Good.

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

According to every stat I've seen Americans are some of the hardest working people on earth.

It's more like most-working rather than hardest-working. If you compare productivity on an hourly basis, the EU is on par with America. They just take month-long summer vacations and have a lot more time off during the rest of the year. I think the numbers were around ~70% of the hours worked and ~68% of the producitivity per capita of the USA.

We do have a lot more stuff and bigger houses than the people on the EU do though.

I haven't seen a comparison with the 3rd and 2nd world countries.

Re:Good.

[rossifer]

India has serious systemic problems in government and culture that they will need to overcome before they can be effective solving new problems.

In government, there is corruption and graft, the likes of which would take any American's breath away. This is accepted as "business as usual" by the Indian populace, who see few alternatives. The average Indian citizen has nothing to gain and a lot to lose if they are the "squeaky wheel", so everyone pretty much sits quietly and takes their share of the graft. Because of this situation, Indian infrastructure (roads, wiring, communications) is in a perpetual state of near failure. The areas where this is not the case are private networks where western companies are currently pumping money in and demand a high quality of service for their money. As soon as those funds disappear, the repairs on the redundant power generators, the satellite uplinks (made by western companies) the telecom equipment and redundant trunks (made by western companies) will all fall apart.

Based on my observations, the cultural problems relevant to tech workers revolve around attitudes towards authority and strategies of pedagogy and learning. Further, the two problems are tightly coupled and coupled with the enormous power disparities between cultural groups, which makes the problems even less tractable.

The education problem can be framed as one in which the teachers pour the knowledge that the students need into the student's heads and that's what they get. This "banking" method of teaching has been long discredited for developing creative thinkers (something that American and European educational systems can list among their strengths). If you go into a bookstore in Bangalore, most of what you will find are certification training books. When you talk to outsourcing companies about the team you might be hiring, they list certifications at you and will almost refust to discuss experience.

When you go to India to work with your team, you find that unless you can frame your problem and development approach as a series of strict single-option rules, your rules will not be followed. Rules of the form, "Either (1) or (2), whichever is more readable." will result at best in 100% (1) or 100% (2) and usually neither. When you ask about a shortcoming that you've found in a review or testing, they will ask where the problems are, then wait until you tell them exactly how to fix those problems before making changes. If the problems that you have mentioned are a part of a pattern and you point out other cases of the problem, you will find that only those instances that you specifically pointed out have been changed.

In short, until Indian technology workers start treating software development as a craft, they will only be the equivalent of the "web developer" here in the US. Until the Indian educational system teaches a craft approach to problem solving, Indian software workers are unlikely to have any success at anything other than the simplest and most motonous projects. Until the culture supports asking challenging questions to teachers and team leaders, the educational system and the products of that educational system are unlikely to change in any significant way.

I liked India. I liked most of the Indians I met (the souvenier sellers were not very likeable, except for 10-year old Madhu up there on Chumundi hill in Mysore). But aside from their personal appeal, I needed to build up an honest evaluation of their suitability for use by my employer.

My conclusion after working with them for a year and being overseas for a month of that: If it's trivial detail work that doesn't require any creativity or insight into the underlying design. If the task can be specified up front and is entirely based on widespread standards, the Indian team is perfect and will do a good job.

If, on the other hand, the module is core to the system, if the module requires careful design, if the requirements are poorly understood, if we need to have a lot

Re:Good.

[maxpublic]

And I haven't seen any comparison since you're all talking out of your asses. How about an empirical study published in an accredited, peer-reviewed journal? Anyone got one of those?

Max

Great

[Camel Pilot]

Is outsourcing to North America part of their plan :)

Good on them

[Staplerh]

Makes sense.

India has gained global repute as a hub of software professionals while China is strong on computer hardware. Both countries' cheap and plentiful labor has undercut the tech industry in America and other Western countries through outsourcing.

Seems as if they're trading on the principle of 'comparative' advantage, something that makes perfect sense. Software in India, hardware in China. Now, I understand that we're going to see some misguided anti-Globalisation backlash on this site. Overall, firms will then get lower prices for their tech products. Everybody will win from this.

Re:Good on them

[Seumas]

Everybody will win from this.

Unless you are emloyed in America, making software or hardware for a living.

Please inform the masses on Slashdot how lowering the standard of living for those in say - America, Britain and elsewhere - is a winning situation.

Re:Good on them

[0x461FAB0BD7D2]

Those in America and the UK, and other developed countries, are relatively better educated. As such, their occupational mobility is higher. Moreover, they have the chance to be creative without getting their hands dirty.

I've heard, on Slashdot no less, of Americans outsourcing their own work to India, pocketing the difference and spending their time at the desk learning. Specialization of labor has always worked, and may even be the reason we are where we are now.

Re:Good on them

[millwall]

Those in America and the UK, and other developed countries, are relatively better educated.

Than what countries? Let me remind you that India has got one of the best IT University degrees in the world. Was this really an educated comment?

As such, their occupational mobility is higher.

How is the educational level linked to the occupational mobility?

Re:Good on them

[Timesprout]

See this is the beauty of it. As the China and Indian get wealthier they wont give a fucking shit about the US and UK getting poorer, just like we didnt give a shit about them living in poverty and squalor while we enjoyed our spin on the affluence merry go round. As the adage goes, 'he who pays the piper calls the tune', the Chinese and Indians will be paying and the tune will be 'China and India say everyone wins'.

Personally I am just waiting for the US to announce that some such alliance poses a threat to their security and takes military action to protect their economy

Re:Good on them

[Richard_at_work]

Please inform the masses on Slashdot how lowering the standard of living for those in say - America, Britain and elsewhere - is a winning situation.

As slashdotters are so fond of saying in P2P stories - your business plan is flawed and its not up to us to sustain it for you. You arent entitled to that higher standard of living, and if someone can undercut you then you need to compete in different ways, add value to YOUR version of the product, entice customers to buy from you rather than the cheaper alternative.

Re:Good on them

[R.Caley]

So exactly how is the American worker's business plan flawed, do tell?

If you imagine you can live high off the hog just because people will pay you a great deal of money to do what can be done as well and cheaper by someone else, then you doomed, whether `you' are an individual worker or a corporation.

Re:Good on them

[cryptochrome]

More importantly, if you made your living on something that will ultimately be automated, you deserve what you get.

Then the whole human race has got it coming. There's nothing that can't ultimately be automated, particularly not given the present improvement rate in technology. Writing fiction will probably be the last to go.

China and India are competitive now because they have skilled but dirt-cheap labor. When their labor is no longer dirt-cheap, they won't be so competitive. But that's going to require some redistribution of wealth first.

Re:Good on them

[Seumas]

That's the thing I find most amusing. I'm more or less a conservative minded libertarian and I've noticed that the same people who decry redistribution of wealth through taxation are all in favor of redistribution of wealth through outsourcing.

Re:Good on them

[R.Caley]

See, America imports far more than it exports.

If you think that is a problem, stop doing it. You don't need self destructive protectionist state controls, you just need to do something different when you shop.

In fact, the main problem with the US economy currently is that you re-elected a don't-tax-but-spend-anyway government and so are selling the whole place to China at bargain prices to stave off total fiscal collapse for a few months more.

The immorality of Open Source

[Anonymous Coward]

Having read the article thoroughly, this startling news shows the flaws in the brewing Open Source Zeitgeist that is gripping the software community. Have you considered that providing software for free to countries such as China is essentially tacit support for oppressive regimes?

Far-fetched? Think about it: With MySQL, the People's Army will now be able to do multiple queries on their tables of democratic activists in Olog(n) time instead of lengthy searches in card catalogs. The bureaucratic overhead previously allowed activists enough time to flee the country. How about building cheap firewalls so the people can't get the unbiased reporting that CNN provides? Or using Apache to publish lists of Falun Gong people to their police forces instantly? I doubt that never crossed your minds when you were coding away in your parents' basements. Consider putting that little thought in your mental resolv.conf file.

If that does not concern you ( which it probably doesn't, since the slashdot.org paradigm is publishing articles about how not to pay for things ), consider something else. When China eventually goes to war with Taiwan, we want to be able turn their command and control facilities into the computing equivalent of a train-wreck. One of the advantages of Windows never mentioned in the article is the ability of Microsoft to remotely deactivate Windows XP in the case of a national emergency. Thanks to GNU/Lunix, Taiwan will be on a collision course with the mainland in the near future.

Which throws into question Mr. Stallman's motives. A known proponent of socialism, the Chinese government and RMS are natural allies. Could it be a back door to Stallman's dream of an über-Socialist United States? We may never know for sure. Next time you consider contributing to an open source project, ask yourself this question: don't you want to make sure your work isn't used for nefarious purposes? Will you risk having blood on your hands?

Re:The immorality of Open Source

[Seumas]

Jonathan Scwhartz, is that you?

Hmm

[Otter]

The Taiwanese may be a little bit uneasy about which part of "China" this "Chinese hardware" is going to be coming from...

That said, the border agreement India and China announced today seems like a terrific step forward. I'm surprised it's not getting more attention. The two biggest countries in the world have been banging heads over that border for decades.

Inevitable

[0x461FAB0BD7D2]

Cooperation between India and China is inevitable. Their feud stems from a small war and dispute over small threads of land. The benefits of their cooperation is far greater than the benefits of a rift, and both sides have seen this. Add this to a burgeoning ASEAN, and you have a truly global economic power.

Whether or not they succeed at dominating the tech industry is redundant. If they cooperate, even economically, they'd have a lot more say in the world than the either the US or the EU, over time.

Re:Inevitable

[AppyPappy]

The fight isn't over land. The fight is over control of SE Asia. India's military buildup makes China squirrely. This is especially true with India's lead in naval forces. India can project further out that China. In the absence of a war, that is a key asset in diplomacy.

China and India may pretend to get along as newlyweds but China's support of Pakistan's military is the porn stash in the closet.

Re:Inevitable

[kahei]

I wish people would stop presenting this as a mutual tiff. The feud stems from the Chinese _invasion_ of India -- large chunks of which they still hold.

Hmmm

[rudeboy1]

Isn't this where Peter Wiggin joins with the Thai army and defeats the Indo-Chinese alliance?

Re:One word.

[icemanuea]

You're not looking at the bigger picture. For the consumers it will become a better deal. With much lower software/hardware development costs, these savings can inevitably be passed on to the customers. The only way China and India can establish themselves into the market is to undercut the prices of existing products and technologies. This should (fingers crossed) jump start an agressive price war -> cheap products of equal or better quality!!

BBC World Comment

[Tibe]

"China has a large manufacturing sector and India has a large software industry. China may become India's major manufacturer while India will be China's office" - BBC World (OR words to that effect)

First they have to get off the reservations

[0kComputer]

Why would indians want to get mixed up with the Chinese? Seems like this would jeopordize their lucrative Casino businesses.

I should probably elaborate...

[halivar]

Despite China's usage of FOSS, they're the only people I trust less than MS. Today's software overlords, the US + EU, is bad enough with managing things like privacy and fair use.

China's management of the internet ought to give us some idea of what they would do with a monopoly on internet tech.

Re:I should probably elaborate...

[FudRucker]

atleast with the FOSS method you can roll your own and not have to depend on the whim of corporations & governments...

It's better than them lobbing nukes at each other

[Anonymous Coward]

In a century or two, perhaps they will taunt each other like the U.S. and Canada.

Re:And now...

[0x461FAB0BD7D2]

...in order to post substandard comments and get a substandard karma.

Who writes the docs?

[lheal]

Assembly Instruction of Very Fine Device.

Step 1: You should be opening the box now.

Step 2: Complete assembly is easy for you.

Step C: Begin use Very Fine Device.

Re:Who writes the docs?

[foobsr]

These tasks will be outsourced to the various native speakers of the countries that are ruled (technologywise) who will do it almost for free due to economical pressure. I am not sure, though, that this will lead to improved quality and do not hope for usefulness.

CC.

Re:Who writes the docs?

[phyruxus]

I remember a scsi card manual I had once. I was looking for directions on how to do $foo. The TOC said see p15. Page 15 said see page 33. Page 33 said see p 15.

I'm not making this up. Wish I could remember the brand.

Re:Who writes the docs?

[delire]

Har Har

Having been surrounded by water all this time you probably haven't noticed the documentation your boss writes for it's export customers comes across as similarly ridiculous. Try asking any Indian person about the legibility of M$ Windows 98 documentation for instance.. It's time to learn Chinese, Spanish and then Indian in that order.

P.S your URL appears to be a grammatically troubled conjugation of two verbs, where are you from?

Re:Who writes the docs?

[hawk]

Planning be taken over merging quality high chinese hardware and indian software.

Perhaps discussing we be over excellent british food washed down with bull's blood ^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h wine excellent Spain from.

:)

hawk

Re:new Asian century

[fishdan]

...the two nations should put aside their historic rivalries...

I can't help but think that it is no coincidence that this is going on at the same time as anti-japanese riots in Japan. Seems like China is pulling out the stops to truly become the dominant Asian power.

There is simply no way...

[rhythmx]

that China can compete with the U.S. Tech when we have the best Math and Science schools on the planet. I mean, there is so much interest within the U.S. to keep up innovation and not just be technology whores. Besides, we've patented everything anyway.

Re:There is simply no way...

[jim_v2000]

The Bush administration have steadily been screwing over the educational system due to lack of federal funding, restrictive rules.

Our education system has been screwed over by a mindset in this country that says don't do anything that might make someone feel bad. If a kid is slow at math, it's not because they're slow...the math program must be too difficult! Dumb it down! The SAT scores are low...it's not because the people taking it don't know anything..it must be too difficult. Dumb it down! We tell our kids, "If you think it's too hard, we'll make it easy as crapping your pants honey!" It does our education system no damn good, and we should be pushing our students HARD to do well in school. Make them learn. 99% of the time, all of the "challenged" kids in schools are just too damn lazy to do the work, and thus don't learn. But people in the country are too eager to "help" these kids out and boost their self esteems by sacrificing everyone else's education.

Do you think the Chinese and Indians care if a kid can't keep up with the classword? No, they don't. We shouldn't be holding all of our students back just because there are some who just don't get the material.

We have enough funds. All the money in the world won't help out education system if we keep doing things the way we are. We need to start teaching and stop coddling.

Re:There is simply no way...

[yog]

Your arguments would be stronger without the tiresome Bush-bashing that always seems to enter any discussion of social, scientific, or political affairs of the day.

Bush's administration has only been in power for four years (elected 2000, took office early 2001); that's hardly enough time to affect the vast education system in the United States in any significant way.

Sure, they could potentially wreak some havoc, but I see them merely influencing it in petty ways such as increased federal support for parochial schools and voucher systems and reduced federal support for teachers' unions. None of which are particularly awful things to do, in fact; the unions seem to be opposed to every change and innovation that comes down the pike except for higher salaries.

Now, cutting innovative programs at the federal level and federal science budgets such as that of NIH and DARPA, that's bad stuff that will hurt the U.S. in the long term. However even so, U.S. spending on science and technology is still very high, higher than anywhere else even today.

As for this China-India rapprochement, I think it's a mere political ploy. India needs Chinese manufacturing right now, but India is definitely gunning for the hardware market and would love to undercut China. Indeed it's been widely reported that China is beginning to experience some labor shortages that may drive up factory wages there. Google for "china worker shortage" to find many articles about this issue.

These two countries are natural competitors with no love lost between them. Mao's invasion of Assam in 1962 and the 1987 border skirmish are pretty recent events, well within the memory of most adults now alive. Clearly this announcement is just a way for China to intimidate the U.S. and rack up a few diplomatic points at little cost, and a way for India to annoy Pakistan (and remind the U.S. that India is an important country in the region).

Global perception...

[PornMaster]

I think that it's fair to say that this is the first time in history that people everywhere else see America whining about its inability to compete.

In times past, the American workforce was something to admire. I don't think that's the case any longer.

Re:Global perception...

[Seumas]

Except it isn't a matter of being unable to compete.

There is nothing lacking in the skill, talent and dedication of American employees. It is simply that employees in America have to pay American prices for rent, housing, transportation, food, clothing, education and health care. Corporations have the entire planet to search for qualified and extremely cheap labor.

If American tech workers had the entire world to choose from for sourcing out their necessary purchases for living, they could live cheaper, too. If Joe Techie lives in a country where a gallon of milk is almost $4 and the average cost of a house is $200,000 - how can you expect him to survive on the wages of someone who lives in a country where that would buy five houses?!

Re:Global perception...

[qwijibo]

He can't. However, no one has a right to own a house or drink milk. The fact that a problem exists does not confer an obligation on someone else to do something about it.

Of course, the irony of the situation is that all of the companies cutting their work force for short term savings are going to end up with a much smaller customer base in the long run. Once all the well paid people are working for peanuts, only peanut farms will be able to sustain themselves.

Re:Global perception...

[lbmouse]

No, blue coller jobs have been sent overseas for years (thank you greedy unions). Americans have been whinning about this for a long time. It's just now we are starting to lose large numbers of white coller, non-union jobs.

Re:Global perception...

[missing000]

Really all the whining is about exchange rates and super-artificial economies.

Indian worker do not work for substantially less benefit than US workers - the trade issue people are talking about refers to a pure exchange rate problem.

One could even argue that Indian tech workers reap a substantially higher benefit than their US counterparts when you take mean deviation in standard of living into account.

This is exactly why import tariffs were invented, and curiously, this is what you get when you don't use them.

Re:Global perception...

[dominion]

The only failure the unions had in factory jobs moving is that they weren't able to stop it. Blaming globalization on collective bargaining is absurd.

Re:Global perception...

[laetus]

Then you are pretty ignorant of American history.

Americans were confronted with the same situation in the 1980's when the Japanese behemoth swamped American auto and steel production, leading to the "Rust Belt" throughout the American Northeast. America recovered via the IT and telecommunications industries.

We're now confronted with the same scenario as China and India move into IT industry, threatening American businesses and jobs much like the Japanese did in the 1980's.

And now, as in the 1980's, Americans worried about their jobs and their families, as would ANY culture facing the demise of industries. But we CHANGED then, and we'll do the same now.

It's called the process of creative destruction, and American industry will rise again, much like the Phoenix of lore. Contrast that with what Europe attempted by protecting its industries rather than letting them go and you'll see who had the better model.

Re:Global perception...

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

There is nothing lacking in the skill, talent and dedication of American employees.

Sure there is. I agree with much of what you have to say, but that is all beside the fact that American workers are unmotivated and incompetent in many cases. The CEO of a company I used to work at had already run three companies into the ground by doing really stupid and greedy things that made him rich but killed the company. The vast majority of workplaces in the U.S. offer no profit sharing or reasonable incentive plan. If you work twice as hard you get paid the same, but are more tired and stressed. American employees lack dedication for a number of really good reasons. They don't benefit when the company does. They may be fired not because they don't work hard but because the company wants to cut corners or outsource. Executives usually have a different health plan and benefits package than the regular employees. Basically, companies don't treat employees very well and don't feel responsible for them in they way many used to. As a result many employees don't care about working hard or well. This is a huge disadvantage compared to some other cultures.

Re:Global perception...

[Anonymous Coward]

"leading to the "Rust Belt" throughout the American Northeast. America recovered via the IT and telecommunications industries."

Notice how your analogy doesn't mention the "Rust Belt" twice? America may have benefitted from the IT boom but the Rust Belt has yet to recover from the 80's collapse of the REGIONAL auto industry (they just moved the plants).

Something abstract like an industry and the people at the top who reap all of the benefits may recover or grow but the vast majority of the people get ruined for generations like "damaged goods".

Re:Global perception...

[Stone Pony]

"Contrast that with what Europe attempted by protecting its industries rather than letting them go and you'll see who had the better model"

Hmmm... Yes, there's no way that the USA would ever do anything like that, is there?

Re:Global perception...

[Danuvius]

I think that it's fair to say that this is the first time in history that people everywhere else see America whining about its inability to compete.

One ought, of course, note that America has existed for only a rather short period of History thus far.

In that light, the quoted statement is really just a rather bland observation... unless of course you are so devoid of historical perspective that you think America is somehow special and will not fade like all previous empires.

In times past, the American workforce was something to admire. I don't think that's the case any longer.

That might have had something to do with having non-bombed-to-pieces infrastructure and a greater abundance of non-dead men than its European counter-parts after WW2.

Though I suppose it also might have been one of a host of heroic inimitable virtues that only Americans possess in the world.

Urgh... can't decide whether to be opinionated or ironic.

Re:Global perception...

[Qzukk]

Back in the 80's when it happened, people asked "but what will we do now?"

The difference between then and now is that back then there was an answer. Both auto companies laying off workers and the government stepped in and provided retraining, job search and placement assistance, subsidies for those going to college. There was assistance for those looking for a way to pull themselves out of the rust belt.

Now that its my turn, what am I supposed to do? Nobody has answers, nobody is providing retraining, and the only government assistance I've seen is the unemployment office reminding me that I need to apply to N jobs every week and take the first minimum wage job that accepts me, or they'll cut off my unemployment. College costs are climbing as both federal and state funding for both grants and loans are going downhill. I ended up with a college loan from a private entity since Uncle Sam couldn't afford to let me borrow money from him.

I'm sure America will come through somehow, but this time around it looks like its going to be a very bumpy ride.

Re:Global perception...

[nightsweat]

Long long history of us whining about being unable to compete. Take a look at trade barriers set up in the late 1800's to early 1900's to allow the U.S. to set up a steel industry.

Had to keep out that nasty English and German steel, you know.

Re:Global perception...

[Burz]

"It's called the process of creative destruction, and American industry will rise again, much like the Phoenix of lore. Contrast that with what Europe attempted by protecting its industries rather than letting them go and you'll see who had the better model."

Hmmm... Lets see: BMW, Volkswagen vs. GM and Ford. Daimler buys Chrysler. The American superiority isn't very clear there. And who's standard of living has been going down and who's has been rising in the last 20 years?

Soon Americans may have to install a lot more European windfarm equipment to keep our Phoenix toasty... and perhaps creatively destroy the environment a bit less.

+5 Bluster for you.

Re:Global perception...

[gentlemen_loser]

I disagree. The collapse of the steel/auto industry in the 1980's was countered by the advent of technology and computers. In the 1980's, it was farily obvious that technology would be the next big thing. You could not convince me otherwise - I grew up then and my parents heavily pushed me into that area on the promise of a future. Now - technology is moving off-shore. I, for one, do not see the next big thing on the horizon. Please spare me the speech on bio/nano-tech. It has already come and gone overseas. What do we have left to fall back on this time? I've read the other posts and have some formal eduction in econ - I know WHY this is happening. However, do not be so naieve as to believe that a "pure" capatilistic system is the "best" way. Given enough time, it will self destruct in much the same way that communism has. An illustration of my point: In your post you specifically mention how America recovered its economy via the tech industry. Imagine what our economy would be like today if we had BOTH. Don't get me wrong - I am not anti-globalization or firmly entrenched in the idea of a "closed" US economy. However, I believe that the answer has to be somewhere in the middle. Our government NEEDS to be more proactive in regulating trade to be to OUR advantage. Take a look at some south american countries (Brazil), asian countries (China), and the EU. All are rapidly turning against Microsoft. Again, please do not misunderstand me or where I am going with this. I use Linux at home and firmly believe that it is the answer to the MS monopoly. However, it is important to recognize that what is happening is that other countries are positioning themselves to NOT rely on the US tech industry at ALL in the future. China is building its own Linux version. Brazil openly rejected MS. The EU is regulating it to death. Frankly, while I could care less about what happens to MS, what DOES concern me is that these other countries are NOT embracing other US companies like Red Hat, Novell, or IBM, but are rather moving to non-US alternatives. Wake up and smell the coffee people. Out sourcing (pick your decade/industry) is NOT the problem. Rather, it is the symptom of a larger problem with how our current system works.

Re:Global perception...

[BluedemonX]

RE: Indeed. If free trade keeps kicking different sectors in the ass, eventually there will be enough pissed voters to do something about it. A lot of jobs have the potential to be offshored. Manufacturing and tech are just the start.

No they won't. "Hey, we're getting screwed, and our rights are being pissed away, and we're being offshored and exploited, but golly gee gilly dang, them Dimmocrats wants to make gay marraige compulsory!"

Re:Global perception...

[2old2rockNroll]

Collective bargaining raised US salaries to absurd levels. Of course companies are going to outsource to other nations to stay alive. The unions shot themselves in the foot and are now crying fowl.

Then how do you explain the outsourcing of IT jobs, which are not unionized? Nobody is holding a gun to the CEO's head and making him or her pay programmers any particular wage.

Re:Global perception...

[Mr. Underbridge]

The only failure the unions had in factory jobs moving is that they weren't able to stop it. Blaming globalization on collective bargaining is absurd.

Not entirely. They drove their wages far above what similar non-unionized labor was getting in this country, and constantly threatened strikes if they didn't get to push it ever-higher. You could say they have a right to try to get what they can. You could also say they should have had some foresight to realize that doing so too many times would lose their jobs. Ultimately, it did.

The problem with striking is that you put the company in a position that it's better in the short term to give in to demands, yet better long term to simply do away with you. Since labor laws in this country forbid firing a striking work force, in general, the result was that jobs moved overseas. You had a lot of companies realizing they had to give in to unions or else go under, but at the same time putting plans in effect to ultimately rid themselves of unionized labor.

Today, after lots of plant closings, the UAW has realized that they need to work together with the company to find solutions that build the business as a whole while maintaining a fair cut for them. Watch the airline shakeout now - the only airlines that are profitable are non-unionized. You think that's a coincidence? Not by a longshot.

That doesn't mean organized labor is inherently bad. But I've got to say that it doesn't have a good name in the US, because of 1) the role it played in killing some US industries earlier than they otherwise would have died, and 2) its ties to organized crime. As I said, neither of those have to go with unionization, but they did here in the US.

Re:Global perception...

[Jackie_Chan_Fan]

I think that it's fair to say that this is the first time in history that people everywhere else see America whining about its inability to compete.

In times past, the American workforce was something to admire. I don't think that's the case any longer.

BULLSHIT! Its the wealthy that have sold the American workforce out. The poor do not hire people. The poor do not start huge multinational corperations that machine hardware tech and do software developement.

Its the wealthy that pay us, the worker.

The problem isnt that American's are less talented. The problem IS that American workers COST TOO MUCH.

And that we can not change because WE ARE AMERICA. Our Dollar (which is in decline) Is still worth a hell of a lot more than most foreign currency.

We simply cant compete in this "free trade" economy because we're not slave labor. We demand a standard of living.

The problem is... Its just like the day's of slavery here in the US. Rich white guy doesnt want to pick cotton in the hot sun unless he gets paid? Solution... Get the black guy to do it for free. You can exploit the black guy... ITS LEGAL.

Same thing is happening today. We have legalized an unfair playing field that has made slave labor legal.

Now of course its not the same kind of slave labor as back in the day. Now we pay our slaves... we pay them shit.. but we pay them because they live in countries that are poor and are extremely cheap.

It's not that we dont work hard. The problem is that our slave masters are in bed with our politicians. And somewhere between swallowing donkey and elephant cum... they convinced our representatives to open up free trade.

And this is the result.

WE HAVE NOTHING TO TRADE! They cant afford our products, and our slave masters can exploit foreign slave labor WHILE taking our mighty (but in rapid decline) US dollar.

Maximize profits through cheap labor... Jus' like whipping a "nigga" in the fields. Congrats. This is what happens when you vote for elephants and donkeys.

Our country isnt stupid. Its POWERLESS.

Re:Global perception...

[Jackie_Chan_Fan]

Yeah... Europe.. That would be the same Europe that has the Euro? And the GBP? Which both cost more than our US dollar currently.

Yeah... Europe must be doing something wrong... I mean hell... look at the value of their currency! It's only TWICE that of the dollar.

I think Europe is a little better off than we are.

Hell they work less too.

Re:Global perception...

[That's Unpossible!]

What a disgusting and truly saddening post to read. It really breaks my heart to see someone become so dependent on the government.

What the fuck happened to American ingenuity, to picking yourself up by your bootstraps, to working hard and making your life better on your own and with your family and friends?

Instead you whine, "what am I supposed to do?" "Nobody is providing retraining." Where is my government assistance? Why can't I borrow more money from the government?

I'm sorry, but it really makes me want to vomit, to see how far we've sunk in the last 200 years.

Re:Global perception...

[Anonymous Coward]

Your ideal of a rugged individualism died sometime before WWI. The Chinese and Indians have no problems working with their respective government in an attempt to dominate an industry. Why should Americans be any different?

It says in the Constitution that the government should "promote the general welfare." Well, I think that in 2005, promoting the general welfare can extend to assistance with education and nuturing industries in order to improve the welfare of all Americans.

BTW, the government is "We the People", i.e. you, your family, and your friends. The government shouldn't be your enemy. If it is, vote or run for office...

Re:Global perception...

[Anonymous Coward]

Contrast that with what Europe attempted by protecting its industries rather than letting them go and you'll see who had the better model.

I see a rising Euro and a falling dollar. I see a protectionist America and a Europe fighting for free trade.

I see an American on Slashdot who is unable to comprehend the truth - that America is not invulnerable, that the American empire is doomed to fall, just like the British and the Spanish and the Ottomans and the Franks and the Romans.

Europe has been great, and Europe has lost its empires, and Europe has adjusted to a post-imperial existence. America is great now, and America's empire has never been greater than today. But America's empire shall fall. Get used to the idea now - it'll make it easier for you to come to terms with the inevitable when it happens.

Re:Global perception...

[maxpublic]

I'll take protectionism for $200, Alex.

Thanks, but no thanks. Even Adam Smith admitted that while completely unrestricted free trade benefits the economic system as a whole, it can lead to regional economic disasters. He didn't see this as much of a problem because in Smith's time there was no such thing as globalization; nowadays a 'regional economic disaster' could encompass the entire United States. The wealth of the global economy can easily increase while the wealth of the United States, specifically, declines; the health of the system of the whole improves, but that doesn't mean shit to the citizens of the U.S. who no longer have a job.

As a U.S. citizen, I'm really not interested in pissing away my country's economic power to improve the global economy. I'm far more interested in the health of the United States than any nebulous 'greater good'. People who only have the fuzziest grasp of economics seem to think that free trade will automagically improve their specific lot in life, if given time; but Smith never said anything of the sort, a fact that many people are ignorant of, or deliberately ignore, or simply lie about because their particular delusion about what 'free trade' really means is their holy grail.

There is no guarantee that American industry will "rise again". The only guarrantee is that the world economy as a whole will improve in terms of absolute wealth. That doesn't mean that any of that wealth will be distributed regionally to the United States, nor that the U.S. economy won't decline over time. Anyone who thinks otherwise would do with some solid re-education in basic economic theory.

Max

Re:Global perception...

[Qzukk]

No, it most surely does not say that. It says they created the Constitution to, in part, promote the general welfare.

Ineffective pedantry. If I write a proposal for some project because I want software to do task X, it follows that the proposed project performs task X. Likewise, if I wrote a constitution to "promote the general Welfare", I would expect that the government defined within that constitution would promote the general Welfare, amongst the other purposes cited.

Re:Global perception...

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

In general, american workers are not unmotivated or incompetent. The fact that SOME are doesn't mean that all are, or even most.

My statement was that a significant number of American employees are not dedicated due to their workplace environment and treatment. This was in comparison to some other countries, although not all of them. The original poster stated "There is nothing lacking in the skill, talent and dedication of American employees." He is wrong. American employees in general are not dedicated and there are real and valid reasons for that.

Re:Global perception...

[Stone Pony]

So you're saying that the stories are factually incorrect?

Here are some other news sources with a famously "one-sided view of the US in general". They seem to think that these things happened, too, but that'll probably just be their liberal media bias at work.

Say China , what do you want to do tommorow night?

[Anonymous Coward]

The same thing we do every night, India...

Re:It's true

[gewalker]

Yes, and the fact that China does not give a hoot regarding Intellectual Property and Copyright should not concern India in the least.

Re:Chinese Hardware & Indian Software

[Mindwarp]

Somewhere, there's a joke begging to be told.

Let's see if we're all still laughing in 18 months.

they're no dummies

[dAzED1]

The gov of China knows that India is supposed to surpass them in population relatively soon. According to the CIA, by 2020 (15 years, folks...) a China/India duo would account for 36% of the global population. Western Europe plus the United States will only be 9% of the global population. With emerging economies, it is forecasted that we westerners are supposed to become quite obsolete.

China, knowing that by 2030 india is predicted to pass them in population, knows they have to act. Most of China's land mass is worthless, after all (why do you think Tiawan is so important to them?) so they have to position themselves as a solid consumer front.

The problem India/China will face: they'll be *consumers*. Being the biggest consumers has been a major harm to the US economy (trade deficits, etc). For our substantially smaller work force (1/5th-ish), we still produce twice as much as China does (see above CIA link). They need to seriously work on their production per-capita. That, and feeding those folks is already a serious problem. Production, on their end, is not just an industrial issue - its a natural resource issue.

The Western Hemisphere controls the food, and with it...we'll still control the wealth. If the US made some strong ties with South America, we'd retain power with even just 2% of the global population...put 3 billion people in an area that can only make food for 1 billion, and what does supply/demand dictate? It dictates that food prices will skyrocket, and non-food goods will plummet. Watches and games will become trivial, throw-away items (already are), but an apple...an apple will be valuable.

Re:they're no dummies

[kahei]

put 3 billion people in an area that can only make food for 1 billion, and what does supply/demand dictate?


War.

Re:they're no dummies

[bloatboy]

As far as food goes, This guy already turned India (and Pakistan) around. They went from being short on food to having a food surplus. He also prevented a second "Dust Bowl" (same weather conditions) in the Midwest. If China (and any other nation for that matter) did what he outlined, they would no longer have a food shortage. Your observation on production per capita is dead on correct though.

Re:they're no dummies

[alphakappa]

"The Western Hemisphere controls the food, and with it...we'll still control the wealth."

Think I should point this out. Both India and China are food surplus nations.

Re:they're no dummies

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Most of China's land mass is worthless, after all (why do you think Tiawan is so important to them?)

Why is their land worthless? Too rocky? They do have a pretty huge amount of coal for energy supplies but I don't know if you mean value of land for farming. Apparently they have enough farmland to be able to export food to the US, given how much pressure some sectors of farming are getting from Chinese imports.

Re:they're no dummies

[drooling-dog]

It dictates that food prices will skyrocket, and non-food goods will plummet.

Those food prices are going to skyrocket for people in the food-producing regions just as much as for anyone else. And who will own most of the farms? Not the people working on them, certainly. Why not a corporation based in China?

Someone else here commented that capital is now completely mobile across national boundaries, but labor is not. That's the essence of the situation with which we're now faced.

Re:they're no dummies

[mehtars]

Actually, at current world food production levels, you could feed roughly 9 billion people. The only thing is, currently most of that food goes and becomes cattle feed. As the food prices rise, meats will become more expensive and more and more people will turn to a mostly vegitarian diet-- as they already do in many parts of India and China, where the costs of meat for the average person become prohibitive.

Re:they're no dummies

[alphakappa]

Actually India has a foodgrain surplus, and to put it in perspective there are issues (else we wouldn't have a starvation problem), but the point is that food production is not a problem in India - management of that production is. I guess (I hope) with time, that issue will be addressed.

Brave New World

[TrebleJunkie]

Welcome to a Brave New World of Tech Support Hell.

Re:Chinese Hardware & Indian Software

[Asmodai]

Simple:

be glad it is not the other way around. ;)

Re:One word.

[Anonymous Coward]

This might be a good thing. Do you think harware manufacturers in China are going to give a rat's ass about 'Trusted Computing' and harware-level DRM that media cartels want? Funny how we may have to look to China to preserve freedom over our own computing property.

Just Maybe

[Alien54]

we should encourage the USA company Microsoft to try to take over this market? We should encourage the Microsoft Monopoly as good for America? Maybe we should permit the monopoly to continue so long as they use their overly high prices to hire more patriotic americans?

Is what is good for the USA also good for Microsoft? is what is good for Microsoft good for the USA? Is Microsoft the last great hope for Planet Earth?

;-)

Re:Just Maybe

[stevew]

Well -the thing is that to play in the "global" market place these guys are going to have to sign up to the existing Patent, trademark and copyright laws of their customers (though China and India could be captive internal markets all their un-to themselves.)

Once that happens Uncle Bill and IBM have them! ;-)

So basically...

[suitepotato]

...we buy cruddy unsupported hardware from China, we run horrendously unsupported software from India, and we have it fall prey to Russian hackers.

Am I the only one finding this to be a problem?

You know, there was once an old joke on a comparison of Heaven and Hell based on which nationality did your food, car, laws, lovers, etc. I think we're headed towards the same in IT.

I wonder what the South American FOSS contingent will have to say as time goes by or what influence the hacker high thing will have.

Probably just nationalistic chest beating but it is weird news.

Re:So basically...

[johnalex]

In Heaven:
The French are the chefs,
the Italians are the lovers,
the Swiss are the bankers,
the Germans are the mechanics,
and the British are the police.

In Hell:
The British are the chefs,
the Swiss are the lovers,
the Italians are the bankers,
the French are the mechanics,
and the Germans are the police.

Re:Chinese Hardware & Indian Software

[TheViffer]

Considering most of the current hardware is already made in China (ever look at a Dell computer and all those white stickers with MADE IN CHINA clearly printed) and so many jobs are being shipped across sees, I am surprised you even say 18 months.

Bet this surprises most /.ers

[ScorpFromHell]

Premiere of China and the President of India are Scientists, one a down to earth Geologist and the other a rocket shooting Space scientist!

About the topic ...
Could Chinese Hardware & Indian Software be married to produce the World dominating Tech Industry? Is it a mere whimsical dream of the Chinese Premiere or is it a real workable proposition to tilt the balance of the World's technological power base? As the wise sage said "Time will tell"!

Curretly though, the traditional rivals are ready to bury the hatchet over the common border they share and also have set a target to raise the bilateral trade to $30bn by 2010 from the $13.6bn in the last fiscal. The two countried have signed a dozen agreements today, ranging from phytosanitary protocols to more open skies, and China is backing India's bid to the UN Security Council.

So for the time being, they do seem to be working together to the mutual benefit of the two Asian behemoths. Also, if the friction is diffused the world has one pair of nuclear neighbours to worry about!

Re:Bet this surprises most /.ers

[Anita Coney]

Carter was a nuclear engineer. He was also one of our most unpopular presidents. That says a lot about the American people. Heck, Bush cannot even pronounce nuclear!

You may consider this troll or flamebait, but it's still completely true, and that's what really pisses you off.

Re:Bet this surprises most /.ers

[Sri Ramkrishna]

I thought Carter was a peanut farmer?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_Carter#Earl y_years

He didn't seem to have used his B.S. in technology all that much. But Carter was by definition one of the finest men in politics. Too bad, thats not the kind of men you want in politics. :-) He got eaten alive by the Republicans.

sri

Re:Bet this surprises most /.ers

[Politburo]

Well to be fair, a lot of Carter's unpopularity came from the energy crisis/poor economy he presided over and the fact that he had to deal with the Iran hostage affair, not from the fact that he was a scientist.

People will generally not like a president who presided during bad times, and like a president who presided over good times, regardless of fact or party affiliation.

Re:Bet this surprises most /.ers

[Politburo]

Contrary to what his handlers might tell you, and for all his blathering about 'political capital', Bush isn't that popular. His latest approval is about 50/50. Furthermore, most people agree with the action in Afghanistan (although this may be because most people don't realize that we didn't do too much).

is there more to what makes a popular president than you say?

If you had read my post, you would have seen that it said "generally". This is an important word.

How long their advantage ?

[Alain Williams]

• Both countries' cheap and plentiful labor has undercut the tech industry in America and other Western countries through outsourcing.

But how long will that last ? Once their workforces see the wealth that they are generating they are going to want a share of it, that is going to lead to demands for higher wages. This has happened before (see Eastern Europe).

Part of the West's wealth relies on an imbalance of income -- ie the West relies on low wages in Africa/Asia to supply them with cheap food/goods/holidays/... This is not to say that things won't change: they will -- there will be an averaging of standards of living; we in the West are going to have to accept a reduction in our standards of living or work much harder for it. This is good in global terms.

Where will the world's workhouse be ? Africa ?

BTW: Anyone remember 20-30 years ago the golden future that was painted for us -- that automation would mean that no one would have to work more than one day a week (or something like that). Whatever happened to that dream ?

Re:How long their advantage ?

[Mant]

Automation puts people out of work, hell if you are unemployed you don't work any days per week. Not that I'm saying automation is bad, but if you want stuff, you need to work for it. If automation put you out, you change careers.

Re:How long their advantage ?

[birdman17]

BTW: Anyone remember 20-30 years ago the golden future that was painted for us -- that automation would mean that no one would have to work more than one day a week (or something like that). Whatever happened to that dream ?

It came true. You can work 1 day a week and have a roof over your head and food on the table. What's that? You don't want to eat cold beans and rice while living in someone else's basement? You want your own house in the suburbs with 2.5 SUVs in the driveway, lots of fancy furniture, and all the latest electronic gadgets in the living room? Well, that'll cost you a lot more than 1 day a week, no matter how automated everything gets. I currently have way more space and stuff than I need, and I'm only working 4 days a week supporting a family of 3. We (the North American middle class) are not just living that dream, we are living a lifestyle that people didn't even know they could dream about 100 years ago. Unfortunately almost all of it is built on the widespread availability of cheap oil, and that's all about to come to an end. So enjoy it while you can.

Tibet

[Asmodai]

Am I the only one bothered by the fact India is keeping the pro-Tibetan protestors out of the picture?

Seems money is all that matters in the world. So much for the hindus living up to the Srimad-Bhagavad Ghita. =\

Re:Tibet

[Asmodai]

A funny comment coming from someone living in a country that sought its own independence from the Dutch, English, French and Spanish many years ago.

China may not be exploiting the riches, but people have been driven out of their homes, murdered, and tortured. So they should be glad to be part of China? Your vision of what consitutes happiness seems to be very shallow given these people lived in probably more happiness than most of us might ever realise.

Please feel free to correct me if I misunderstood anything of what you said.

Re:Whatever

[Hasai]

"Quality?" Over 90% of the world's desktops runs Microsoft Windows as their OS, and you seriously think most people give two hoots about quality?!?

Correcting the misconception once again...

[GillBates0]

I understand this was supposed to be funny...but the "pennies-per-hour" phrase is a popular misconception about the prevailing wages for software development jobs in India (not generalizing to China, since hardware development may be considered more blue collar work involving more physical labor than software development).

As far as the current wages for "IT" professionals in India go, they are among the top paid people in the white-collar industry. They can afford to live a lifestyle that may be at the very least considered as upper middle class in most societies.

When most Americans hear about "pennies-per-hour" salaries (which in itself is an exaggeration), software professionals are being exploited as "slave labor" in "sweat shops". This view couldn't be further from the truth.

The truth is that "IT" professionals are being paid princely salaries by Indian standards (similar to how it was during the boom in the Silicon Valley). The cost of living in India is *way* low compared to the US. For comparison, a loaf of bread costs about 10 Indian Rupees or about 25 US cents. A large pizza at Pizza Hut/Dominos would cost about 100-300 INR, which is about 2.00 to 6.00 US Dollars. A low-cost meal in an average fast-food type restaurant would run you about 25 INR or less than 1.00 USD.

That's about all I have to say in this rant. Comparing wages without taking in the cost of living into account is crazy, but I guess it's convenient to ignore making misinformed arguments against "outsourcing" (which the corporations are responsible for, btw and not Indians who're "stealing our jaabs") and dissing Indians for being ready to work at lower wages.

Re:Chinese hardware with Indian software?

[ImaLamer]

I can't wait to read the manuals!

Why do democracies kowtow to a dictatorship?

[Anonymous Bullard]

Why are the supposedly free and democratic nations bending over backwards to strike deals with a dictatorship which not only oppresses its own people but also holds its neighbouring peoples under brutal occupation? I have mistakenly believed that freedom-loving and supporting countries aren't supposed to play partnership games with such aggressor states.

It started when Nixon first rolled out the red carpet to China's dictators and promtly dumped support for the occupied Tibetans' struggle to regain independence.

The only answer I have so far is greed. It seems that the formerly rather benevolently socialistic India now wants piece of the action, principles and ideals be damned. But hey, if the US and Europe can lick Chinese Communist Party's bottom, why can't the newly-assertive India? This corporate-lead foreign policy must be quite lucrative for the policy-makers too. And the Chinese Party cadres are masters in playing parties against each other.

Why else would the occupied Tibetans and Uighurs be so goddamn dispensable?

Next time you buy a Dell or visit Walmart (or other financiers of the Chinese Communist Party rule), remember that you aren't financing Hitler's autobahn network in the 1930s, but nevertheless something eerily similar.

Re:Why do democracies kowtow to a dictatorship?

[metlin]

For the same reason that the US is supporting Saudi Arabia and Pakistan - both of which are fundamentalist dictatorships, and the latter a military dictatorship.

Kinda ironic, don't you think?

Ultimately, what goes around comes around.

Educational Spending?

[ackthpt]

Somewhere, there's a joke begging to be told.

Let's see if we're all still laughing in 18 months.

Meanwhile, the US has spent itself into such a massive hole that it can't keep up spending for education. Even colleges have had to turn away students because they've laid off so many staff.

An economy isn't so much based upon money, but on ideas and when there's poor education then the flow of ideas is stunted.

Re:Educational Spending?

[Mr. Ghost]

Well, if people stopped buying foreign products (including not buying Dells and such that are manufactured over seas and branded as American products) and therefore only bought American products we would have a huge boost in the economy with more revenue bein generated and more money available for education and everything else.

However, so many people in the country think it is beneath them to buy American products. They believe that if the products they buy are from other countries it carries more cache. The trade deficit that is causing the massive black hole is a direct result of this.

Just curious, you slam because of the lack of funds for higher education, but do you contribute to the American economy and the American worker by buying American products or do you drive a foreign car and wear foreign clothes. If you buy American products great but if you don't you need to think about what you are really doing.

Re:Educational Spending?

[Tablizer]

An economy isn't so much based upon money, but on ideas and when there's poor education then the flow of ideas is stunted.

I know I will get slammed (again) for saying this, but education is overrated. Most people do not use the kind of knowledge taught in school on their actual jobs. A think a "Just in Time" education system would be more flexible. One could get certificates in requested specialties and topics. The idea that you jam a bunch of info into somebody's head when they are 15 and expect them to remember it all when they reach 30 is ridiculous.

JIT may also make education more affordable by spreading the costs over a longer period of time. The needs of the work world are very dynamic, so our education should be also. The "big lump up front" approach is archaic. How can our comparative advantage be adaptability when our education system is not?

Re:Educational Spending?

[EpsCylonB]

Hey Bush knows what he is doing. Everything will be fine.

Re:Educational Spending?

[ackthpt]

I know I will get slammed (again) for saying this, but education is overrated. Most people do not use the kind of knowledge taught in school on their actual jobs. A think a "Just in Time" education system would be more flexible. One could get certificates in requested specialties and topics. The idea that you jam a bunch of info into somebody's head when they are 15 and expect them to remember it all when they reach 30 is ridiculous.

Sounds like you understand very little of the reasons and methods of education. It's not so much about cramming stuff into your grey matter to pop up later on demand, but to train the mind for learning. Remember, human body and mind develop slowly for a long lifespan. Most education is actually training with increasing levels of cognitive exercise. Hopefully, too, somwhere along the way to adulthood the student will determine, from all they have been exposed to in the process, what they want to specialize in, which is where college takes over.

JIT education? Man... you really have no idea how hard it is to train/educate humans. Fine for unskilled labor, like ditch digging, but where are you going to get accountants, engineers, even auto mechanics these days without a long training process?

"Hi, I'll be your JIT trained surgeon, what is it I'm working on today?"

Re:Educational Spending?

[Lead Butthead]

Have you actually tried to LOOK FOR American product in the shelves of your local stores LATELY?

It's a farce that Toyota while classified as an "import" could boasted that their cars (manufactured in the United States) contained MORE American manufactured components than American branded cars.

Re:Educational Spending?

[Tablizer]

It's not so much about cramming stuff into your grey matter to pop up later on demand, but to train the mind for learning.

Our current system does not do that either. Thus, if we are going to do it wrong, then at least do it wrong cheaper and more flixible.

Most education is actually training with increasing levels of cognitive exercise.

Please clarify.

JIT education? Man... you really have no idea how hard it is to train/educate humans. Fine for unskilled labor, like ditch digging, but where are you going to get accountants, engineers, even auto mechanics these days without a long training process?

I am not sure what you mean. Those jobs are increasingly being done by overseas labor anyhow because of the cost difference. If auto-repair comes down to just reading chip printouts, they will offshore that too. New jobs require marketing, deplomacy, and office politics skills. That is what are young people need to compete, not calculus. I am just the messenger. Us techies without people skills are doomed. Brainy education has been devalued by globalism. It is who you know, not what you know. The wealthiest in my brother's neighborhood are small business owners, often with only high-school educations. The engineers from the local HP plant are fearful for their jobs and work long hours just to avoid being chopped in the next offshoring round.

Re:Educational Spending?

[stdarg]

You've got to be kidding. There are plenty of educated people in America. Do you really think we are losing our competitiveness in IT because there aren't enough smart people? I hope not -- http://www.censusindia.net/literates1.html

As you can see, barely half of India is literate. Even in urban areas, it's only 78%. Obviously you don't need an incredibly well-educated general population to be competitive.

They've done something really forward-thinking, which a lot of people deride them for -- they've favored the few over the many to get a very well-educated base to work with. Rather than have some stupid goal like "we have to get 100% literacy!" which will take several generations and cost who knows how much, they said screw it, let's educate the smart people we know will make it. Now the small group that received so much attention is bringing in HUGE amounts of revenue (relatively).

The thing is, America already has that. So I don't know how you think MORE education is going to fix anything, unless your solution is to have a nation full of doctors and lawyers, like some kind of weird meta-service biosphere. In fact, to re-capture some industries like manufacturing, America needs LESS education, and people should stop thinking of vocational education as full of dumb people who just couldn't cut it in regular college. At least, until we have adequate robots to replace them...

Re:Educational Spending?

[nappingcracker]

I support my local economy every chance I get, fortunately I live in a city that has great local support for local businesses. This is slowly being eroded by megacorps (Walmart, BestBuy, Homedepot, Gap, etc), and as such I avoid these companies. I also support American companies where it makes sense (music goods and equipment, designed and made in America).

American automobile manufacturers, however, do not have my support. It will take great improvements in American automobile engineering before I will buy a non-classic American car. To me, they are horribly inefficient, poorly designed and engineered, and stifle technological advancement in personal transportation. From simple things like cupholder, instrument, and console placement and design to more involved engineering like oil, air, gas filter placement and general maintenance engineering that I have enjoyed in foreign (Japanese) cars for 10 years. To me, it seems like the engineering of American cars is not entirely thought through. The industry seems to not care, as people will voraciously consume anything they are fed on television.

Why have American SUV manufacturers manufacured automobiles that will hit almost all other vehicles above their "safe" collision height? Even large freight vehicles have been engineered not to do this! (see the "extra" low bumper on "tractor trailers" in the front and rear, its so that the two vehicles will collide in a "safer" manner, with the frame and its engineered "crumple" zones able to meet in line with the trucks frame, instead of sliding under the truck frame)

There have been many improvements in American cars, but for me it is "too little, too late" followed by "OK, now what have you done to make things better".

Re:Educational Spending?

[Tablizer]

One could go to a trade school (or be self taught) and learn how to competently write C++ programs and yet still not really understand the principles behind programming languages or computers in general. I have met quite a few of these people before.

And employeers love them.

The focus is on the fundamentals of how computers work and how languages are constructed. With this knowledge, it is then possible to adapt to any new technologies that emerges.

Who says the other guy is less adaptable? Sounds like he is good at picking what he needs to know on his own. Software is not about NAND-gates anyhow, it is mostly about psychology.

Re:Educational Spending?

[alphakappa]

"Just curious, you slam because of the lack of funds for higher education, but do you contribute to the American economy and the American worker by buying American products"

The flaw in this reasoning is that there is no way to define an 'American Product'. Few products can be 100% American since we do live in a global economy where many of the components needed for any industry come from various sources. See, even your gasoline comes from the Middle east - In theory you could be using only American gasoline instead of contributing to a 'foreign' economy.

You don't need to contribute to the economy by an 'American only' policy. Businesses outsource to reduce costs and increase profits. When your local American company makes more profits and increases its stock value, it brings more money to the American economy. Whether it comes to employees or goes elsewhere is a different matter, but the money is mostly used/invested in America, so your economy is not really without funds.

Not to start a political debate, but surely you understand the irony of spending over $200 billion in a war in the Middle East and still not having a tiny fraction of that amount to spend for education?

IMHO, it is an issue of policy and planning in the United States that's affecting education, and not 'spending on foreign cars/clothes'.

Re:Educational Spending?

[Ironsides]

Comparing the US Dollar to the Chinese Yuan is not a good idea as the Chinese Government has tied the exchange rate of the Yuan to that of the dollar at 10:1. If they floated their currency on the market like nearly everyone else does, it may actually go to about 3:1 and the purchasing parity would equalise. As is, the exchange rate is designed to be very protectionist to keep exports high and imports low.

Not so far from the truth

[spun]

If capital is free to move about the globe but labor isn't, then all that the owning class has to do to keep control is to keep moving from the rich, expensive countries to the poor, cheap countries. They let the rich countries become poor again, and then move back.

It's all about cheap labor, and if you think it's "Us" (the US and the West) vs. "Them" (China, India, etc.) then you have bought into the lie that the ruling class uses to keep control.

Re:Not so far from the truth

[stdarg]

It's not a lie -- the people who move to poor countries and take advantage of opportunities are just entrepreneurs and historically many of them started off poor. You could be one of them if you wanted. Historically, MOST of the rich people fade from glory as their country goes down (quick name the American descendants of the de Medici family!), and the few people who are able to get in on the bottom floor can start from just about anywhere (true or false: sam walton's parents were millionaires who traced their lineage to the british aristocracy. ... false).

Right now in places like Pakistan there are people getting rich by starting tiny cell phone companies. Some of them are already rich, but many people will *become* rich who weren't before.

I don't know, maybe you're trying to argue that in today's world, labor isn't free to move, but that's wrong. Americans, especially, are free to emigrate to just about any country on earth.

It does no good to delude yourself into thinking you're a victim.

Re:Not so far from the truth

[spun]

We may be free to emmigrate, but that doesn't mean they will have us. Most countries won't just let us in because we ask nicely. I know, I've looked into moving to Canada, Australia, and England. You have to have a job offer from a company willing to state that it can't get someone just like you locally, or you have to have a lot of money to invest in the country.

Most rich people start out from wealth. The rags-to-riches myth is the exception, not the rule. Not only that, but you have to play the game, buy into the owning class world view before they let you play in their club.

Saying that anyone with talent and motivation can get rich is a slap in the face to everyone the world over who has both and is still poor. It ignores the fact that the system that creates rich people depends on the existence of poor people. Obviously not everyone could become rich, for who would be left to profit off of? Riches don't materialize out of thin air. Someone somewhere worked to create those riches, and most likely, someone else who didn't do nearly as much hard work profited off of that hard work.

It does no good to believe the system is perfect and the playing field is level when it's not.

In the US, we have some problems...

[MarkWatson]

Don't get me wrong: I actually think that globalization is not such a bad thing (assuming some semblance of fair market practices - but then again, read Arundhati Roy for the dark side of the World Bank, globalization, etc.) I live in the US and because I live in a remote area I only telecommute so I both compete with foreign workers and also receive a fair amount of work from companies in India and Europe. It is all a matter of trying to stay competitive in the amount of work done per $$.

Where I think we really have problems is in our educational system. In the 1970s, most articles in ACM journals were written by Americans. Now relatively few articles are. In the US, we have the top end of the IT food chain covered - by this I mean super creativity, capital for investments, etc. Anyway, it bothers me how few young people that I talk with have any desire what so ever to pursue careers in science and engineering.

-Mark

Re:In the US, we have some problems...

[wwonka74]

Yeah and I'm going to blame standardized testing for this.
During the 3 conferences I've had with my oldest son's teachers this year their main focus of conversation was the testing they do and where he resides on some scale.
My issue with the present system is how much class time is spent entirely on passing a test instead of learning and retaining information. Look at all the paper MCSE's, A+'s, Network+ certified techs walking around. Yeah they know the information long enough to take the test but put them behind a computer or a router 2 weeks later and they can't figure out how to login!
We are fostering a generation that has the ability to pass a test. Not to mention that the test itself seems built to make the schools look good by judging them on material that should've been covered imho well before.
If I had any doubts that my 3rd grade son would fail a test asking him to what 45 + 32 was or 7 * 3 I would be ashamed of myself and feel a failure as a parent for not ensuring my child a proper education.
I constantly have to supplement what he learns in school because they do not have time to cover anything but what's going to be in the standardized testing.

Re:In the US, we have some problems...

[bombadillo]

Scientists and Engineers don't get the respect they used to. Why bust your butt in those studies when you can get a business degree and make a similar amount? There really isn't a huge financial incentive to go into those studies. India and China are pumping out Engineers right now due to the fact that a degree in the Sciences means a job that is very high when compared to the rest of the populace. Once their economies develop and once can make a decent living with out the hard studies I bet that they will shift like we did.

Re:In the US, we have some problems...

[Tablizer]

I think I remember you from a prior post. IIRC, you said you have to work your tail off just to stay even. What about when your fingers go bad and you are no longer as productive as a 23-year-old?

And, I still have not heard an *incentive* for young people to study tech/sci/eng. They will naturally pick something more lucrative and that allows them to live where they want.

One advantage some US workers have (at least me :) over younger foreign workers is many years of experience that makes it possible to get work done faster.

I find that this often requires coding techniques that corporations don't like. They want plug-and-play personell. Advanced techniques hamper that goal of theirs because others cannot relate to such code.

Re:In the US, we have some problems...

[necrognome]

Where I think we really have problems is in our educational system.

If you were in school, and your advisor told you that the number of jobs in field x (say, marketing) were increasing, and those in field y (say, science/engineering) were dramatically decreasing, which field would you choose to study?

We have a bit of a "chicken and egg" problem among business leaders in the US. Bill Gates, Carly, etc. have complained about the lack of tech graduates, but their outsourcing practices only exacerbate the problem.

Anyway, it bothers me how few young people that I talk with have any desire what so ever to pursue careers in science and engineering.

Perhaps the young folks are smarter than we think they are: they know which way the wind is blowing.

Re:Chinese Hardware & Indian Software

[Mindwarp]

I say 18 months because considering the in-roads that both China and India have made into the Western markets in the last five years with just their current 'business as usual' business plans, I'd hate to see what they'll be capable of with a new aggressive partnership!

China is too top down for this to work

[wheelbarrow]

China has a long way to go towards enabling personal freedoms before this will work. China may have the high tech labor force but the specifications are still being written in the United States. This will not change until the centralized Chinese communist system allows decentralized freedom and entreprenuership. The Chinese system of a huge labor force and relatively few real leaders will not scale to the level of decision making and innovation that a system based on respect for dissent and personal freedom will. China needs more leaders to make this work and their current system fears that level of power sharing.

Re:One word.

[ThosLives]

Actually, this is only good in the long run, contrary to the other post here on being bad in the long run due to "monopoly" development.

In the very short term it's great for consumers because prices are low. However, in the medium term, a slew of jobs will be deprecated in non-Indo-Chinese nations as the industries relocate. This will cause all sorts of economic and political headache as people will fight the change with tariffs, stressing the system which will then snap nastily when all local demand will vanish and companies go belly-up. Those folks who have enough foresight will work to develop new industries that provide the higher value required to support "western" wages. So, eventually things will shift again.

This is simply the economic cycle on a global scale instead of many small local ones; when any area gets an advantage, wealth shifts there for a while, but it will eventually shift somewhere else again (maybe South America? who knows...)

Savings are only great, also, if people use those savings to save and hedge against disruptions, not if they use it to buy more expensive luxury items and to improve education to better cope with change.

India should say "No Thanks!"...

[IdJit]

Since India is hosting the nation of Tibet (in exile), teaming with China would be a complete slap in the face to their Tibetan guests. Not that the US really cares since Tibet holds nothing of interest to us. (like oil or strategic bits of land)

If the US supports this partnership, then it confirms the fact that it's okay for the US to oppose dictatorships in all other countries, but China's Communist dictatorship is perfectly acceptable.

"Everybody" my ass!

[Tablizer]

Free trade economics does NOT guarentee:

* Good jobs for those displaced by cheaper nations

* Vibrant middle class

If it by chance worked out that way in the PAST, we were lucky. But the theory does not mathematically guarentee the above. If you say otherwise, please show me the study.

It may mean better averages, but averages don't mean much for those stepped on. Do we cut the legs off of one in ten so that nine can have bigger cars? That seems to be what we are doing, figuratively.

is there a market

[igotmybfg]

for bad software running on bad hardware?

Thats all fine and dandy but

[Stone316]

there has to be something said about fair competition. There is a reason why doing business in the west is more expensive.. Labour and Environmental laws just to name 2.

I have no problems competing with industries half way around the world if its fair. IMHO tariffs should be place on any goods coming in from other countries that don't meet our same standards. If at the end their products are still cheaper then i'll agree we have to revise our business practices.

Re:Thats all fine and dandy but

[merdark]

Hm. You think you will be able to buy anything while making 1 cent an hour putting together shoes for Nike?

This is why most of the EU, Britian, Canada, USA, etc have labour laws. Essentially to prevent a form of slavery. Even so, it doesn't work very well, as you will notice if you look at the division of money in most countries.

Make no mistake, it is not YOUR quality of living that is going up by having these companies in your country. It's just that the higher ups make more money than they do now. You will still be poor, and very likely you will also work harder than you do now for that 1 cent an hour.

Re:Thats all fine and dandy but

[ifwm]

While I ususally err on the side of capitalism, I have to disagree with you.

The environmental laws exist because it was determined they were necessary. The fact that other countries don't follow them is a failure of policy by the government, and the fact that we CONTINUE to do business with such countries an even bigger failure.

The US is perfectly within it's rights to insist on a certain amount of equity when trading with other countries. Failing this allows them to keep prices down, and hurts competition here in the US.

While they are "choices" as you say, the choice between gross, unsustainable pollution or higher prices is really no choice at all.

Re:Thats all fine and dandy but

[R.Caley]

The environmental laws exist because it was determined they were necessary.

If they are necessary then, by definition, everyone will follow suit or die.

The US is perfectly within it's rights to insist on a certain amount of equity when trading with other countries.

You have equity. If you don't want shoes made by semi-slave labour in environmentally destructive factories, then don't buy them. Buy shoes from US factories at the price you'd be paying for the imported ones if the exporting country ran to the same rules. If the same majority who chose the labour and environmental laws choose to buy the goods at the resulting price, there will be no problem.

The problem comes when you want to imagine that you can have jobs at the higher lifestyle price, but buy goods at the lower lifestyle price.

Tarifs are just a way for the US (or wherever) reasonably well off to, in the short term, screw the US poor. Force the poor to pay high prices for low price goods to subsidise the choices of those who could actually afford to buy the expensive US shoes if they weren't such tightwads.

And, of course, the slave labour and the environmental damage still happens on the other side of the tarif barrier.

Re:Thats all fine and dandy but

[Tiroth]

>>The environmental laws exist because it was
>>determined they were necessary.

>If they are necessary then, by definition,
>everyone will follow suit or die.

What a silly idea! There is obviously a cost to exploiting or degrading (pollution) the environment. It may manifest itself in flooding (deforestation), decreased productivity from health problems (pollution), liability from lax controls resulting in damages (see: Bhopal), etc. At the same time, none of these things are going to cause humanity as a species to drop dead tomorrow--but they may collectively limit the future viability of the planet for human survival.

As a result, there is a "tragedy of the commons" scenario--we all share the environment, but the costs of exploiting it are seldom internalized, so companies are not discouraged from taking unfair advantage of it. Even if the processes are unsustainable in the long term, people will tend to take the short term view if it means they personally profit.

Re:Chinese Hardware & Indian Software

[Anonymous Coward]

Somewhere, there's a joke begging to be told.

Yes there is: in 2010...

Chinese businessman: I'll never buy from Ching Computers again!

Indian businessman: Why not?

Chinese: I called their customer support yesterday, and some guy with a heavy accent starts saying: "Howdy y'all, wassssuuup?"

Indian: No way! They're outsourcing to Americans?? Wow, how low can you go?

Job Hold 'em

[cynic pi]

It's called the process of creative destruction

Your point is well taken, but much like an all in bet in poker, it works every time but the last time. And I'd personally like to see the next frontier horizon first.

Yeah, contrast that with Europe.

[Some Random Username]

I'd hate to be stuck living in a free country, where I have to work 6 weeks less per year to have a higher standard of living. That would really suck.

Re:Chinese Hardware & Indian Software

[iggymanz]

incomprehensible manuals backed by unintelligable help desk support.

Oh no!!!

[Ancil]

Incoming: 300 alarmist responses about how India and China and the rest of the Asian Tigers are going to own everything / run everything in 10 or 50 years, because they work so much harder than us.

Funny thing. 20 years ago it was the Japanese who were going to "own everything". It's actually funny (in a tragic sort of way) to watch movies from the 80's and early 90's, with their dire predictions of our impending Japanese Overlords. For a good laugh, go rent "Rising Sun" or even the Micheal Keaton comedy "Gung Ho".

In reality, Japan is slowly dragging itself out of a recession which has spanned decades due to the inept bungling of the bureaucratic masterminds who were supposedly going to guide Japan to a peaceful takeover of the world's economy. Heck, I even drive a Honda: it was made in Kentucky.

If you honestly think that China and India are going to surpass the West through the magical power of Central Planning, you haven't been paid much attention for the past 100 years or so.

Incoming: Hundreds of slashdotters raving about how hard Indians and Chinese work in school (quietly ignoring the vast majority who live in rural areas). Big deal. It didn't help the Soviets, did it?

China isn't going to be a frist-world country as long as their central government insists on tightly controlling the most important aspects of their economy. India is better off in this regard, but as an imperfect democracy I see them as a potential ally, not a rival. Indeed, the Bush administration is cozying up to democratic India specifically as a foil to totalitarian China. Smart move.

Most people even on slashdot are profoundly igrnorant of economics. For example, they routinely assume that economics is a zero-sum game. If that were true, we'd still be living in caves.

Re:Oh no!!!

[frank_adrian314159]

Heck, I even drive a Honda: it was made in Kentucky.

You are aware that the only reason it was "made in Kentucky" was due to the "bureaucratic masterminds" in our country that placed import quotas on Japanese cars in the late seventies and early eighties? I find your faith in the power of free thoughts and markets in opposition to that of unbridaled economic power to be touching - naive, but touching. Power begets a desire for more power. Why do you think that econimic power is any different? In reality, unless free-thinking people band together to reign in economic power early via some sort of organized effort (like... let's say... a government?), they will have no choice but to reign it in later, when the price paid to do so will be much greater and generally involve much more blood.

Re:Oh no!!!

[Ancil]

Power begets a desire for more power. Why do you think that econimic power is any different? In reality, unless free-thinking people band together to reign in economic power early via some sort of organized effort (like... let's say... a government?)

Oh, Lordy-Lou, here come the proto-Socialists to tell us that if we don't put the government in charge of everything, the Big Bad Capitalists will convert us all into nerve-stapled slave labor over the next 20 years. The only thing governments are interested in is convincing people like you that they can solve all your problems.

Power begets a desire for more power. Why do you think that governments are any different?

If you're really worried about Chinese, Eastern Europeans, and the rest of the bogeymen, there is something you can do about them: push for governmental reform. Lower the income tax to 10%, elimintate 80% of the cabinet departments, and get rid of "Government is your granny" entitlements like Social Security and Medicare.

If you'd like to learn some basics about how economies function, I recommend this book by Thomas Sowell. While you're at it, buy a copy for that wacko who thinks a government-mandated push for biodiesel is going to solve all our problems.

Eastern Europe?

[Anonymous Coward]

China may have the best shot at keeping the hardware side, but I can easily see Eastern Europe and especially the Ukraine being in a position to quickly and easily outclass India in the software development area. Many of the former Soviet republics don't have problems with very high taxes (China's tax structure is as bad as the US's, dont' know about India) and once the mafia elements are neutralized in Ukraine their economy will explode.

Problem wiht eastern europe is that they are landlocked and unable to get goods and products out easily.

I wouldn't even mind living in the Ukraine now. Currently they have far more religious freedom than the US has, possibly more than any other country in the world.

Flank them

[king-manic]

The only solution is to drive developement where they can't go yet. Biotech/nanotech. We have to pour money and employ all our resources into developing those two technologies.

Re:Flank them

[frank_adrian314159]

The only solution is to drive developement where they can't go yet. Biotech/nanotech.

You are aware that both China and India are already ivesting in these areas, as well? China is already the main place for siting MEMS foundaries and India's pharmaceutical companies are providing a lot of the drugs for the third world already.
R&D in these areas are being done by Indian and Chinese nationals, even in the US. Why do you think that we have some advantage in this area?

3 words: "Eat The Rich"

[Cryofan]

I suggest we indict, try, convict and sentence to death by hanging all the CEOs and politicians who took part in this outsourcing/free trade scam.

Sentence 'em all to death by hanging, and then eat their bodies. That way we can all be "consumers" again!

Of course, they would have to be tried in a court of law before being tried. And we may have to change a couple of laws to let us do this.

But it is gonna be SO MUCH FUN to...EAT THE RICH!

My own doubts about this claim.

[btarval]

This step has been an obvious one for at least 5 years; it certainly has taken China and India a long time to get around to it. Let's put this in perspective.

Last quarter (February, IIRC), the San Jose Mercury News had an article in their Business section on the top 3 Indian Outsourcing firms' gross revenues. (Tata, et. al.). It came in with an underwhelming $1.5 Billion.

If you assume all of that is from outsourcing, and they charge $10,000 per engineer, that gives a grand total of 150,000 Indian Engineers. And these folks are all tied up with Western Outsourcing efforts. That's not a lot of Software people. A subset of Silicon Valley alone has 800,000 jobs in it and I'm guessing 5%, or 40,000 are Software. The entire U.S. certainly has a much bigger pool, dwarfing what it has taken India over 10 years to achieve.

So, yes, India and China have the motivation to join forces. But they don't have a pool of skilled people which begins to dwarf the U.S.. They also don't have a Venture funding pool with even approaches the U.S.. Nor due they have an adequate legal system to protect businesses when there are contract disputes. And both countries have a huge amount of corruption.

The only thing both do have is cheap Engineering talent.

And to top it off, many people are looking at China's balooning financial structure to "pop" over the next few years.

This is not a good base from which "to dominate the world's tech industry". To be a player, perhaps. But the U.S. can get cheap manufacturing anywhere, if it really needs to.

I'm sure we'll see a bunch of cheap products which don't work too well. But forgive me if I have doubts about their ability to dominate.

In a word: interests

[Loundry]

Why are the supposedly free and democratic nations bending over backwards to strike deals with a dictatorship which not only oppresses its own people but also holds its neighbouring peoples under brutal occupation? ... The only answer I have so far is greed.

"Greed" is the typical response of college students who think that all of "society's" problems can be boiled down to 1) people not getting what they "need" which is caused by 2) people "exploiting" other people because of their "greed." It's as simplistic as it is stupid, and I wish that this dogma would finally fall in the same way that so many of the wicked commist regimes that it spawned have fallen.

Indeed, it is a valuable question to wonder why the United States, rhetorically a country that supports "freedom," would view freedom-crushing, wicked regimes such as China and Saudi Arabia as "strategic partners." The answer can be summed up in one concept: interests.

It has been said before, "In diplomocy, there are no friends. Only interests." Why is it that some countries of negligable threat (Iraq) get flattened by our military while others that wholesale export America-hating terror (Saudi Arabia) get a pass? Because some key players in our country's power structure decided that it was in our country's (or in some certain individuals') interests to do so. For instance, should the United States, on the matter of principle (pick your favorite: women's rights, religious freedom, not-chopping-hands-off-of-petty-thieves, whatever) boycott Saudi Arabian oil? Well, what would be the consequence of such a thing? Is it in our interest to do so? Should the fact that oil is the backbone of the American economy take precendence over standing up for (fill in the matter of principle here)? It all depends on what the consequences for not standing up for "what is right" might be at the time, and that usually comes down to key players taking political hits in the domestic or international community.

As everyone can see, maintaining the oil has, for whatever reason, trumped standing up for human rights in Saudi Arabia. This type of duplicity can be managed through media spin. How often do we hear of the human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia compared to those that happen in Guantanamo Bay? (Well, I'm conflating two different political factions there, but I think you get the idea.)

And don't get me started on China. Will the USA honor its treaty to Taiwan if China invades? The answer to that question will be framed in terms of, "Is it in our interests to do so?" If the government is so willing to defecate with reckless abandon on liberty, then don't think that for a moment it's going to treat Taiwan with any higher degree of respect.

The idea that the USA stands up for freedom is naive. Those who run the USA will act in their interests, which they try (or, at least, pretend to try) to make the same as the interests of the USA. All other countries follow the same path: they fight for their interests.

I Beg To Differ

[lysium]

"...Leading to the "Rust Belt" throughout the American Northeast. America recovered via the IT and telecommunications industries.

What are you calling a recovery? The northeastern United States is still poverty-stricken (and I'm not talking about the Coastal areas). Infrastructure is decaying. Many of the region's lesser cities have become the worst minority ghettos in the country. The tech industry never came to the 'Rust Belt,' and it never will.

"America" as a whole will continue to prosper, yes. But each time a Big Change occurs entire regions become scar tissue, forever useless. It is a bit arrogant to consider this model of economics to be superior to any other.

#2 Tries Harder

[Doc Ruby]

The're going to have to beat the US, which currently dominates global tech with Chinese hardware and Indian software.

The only time to be truly scared

[BluedemonX]

Is when they start innovating themselves as opposed to competing on price.

There's always going to be people who won't want to buy cheap knock offs - for example, when wrenching on the (old) Harley (the one made in the USA) I want tools that are well made, not some Harbor Freight well at least they're cheap things.

But when Ling Liong Wen Hung Flung Wuong Chang Inc. comes up with the next killer app in conjunction with RamaChandraChakraGuru Enterprises, that's when to upgrade to brown alert.

We may not be cheap, but we are usually the engines of creation. Asia does it cheap, Europe does it with style (or at least with government subsidy) - we tend to do it first and forge ahead...

What happened in the auto industry

[sjbe]

The same things were said when Japan made a move to dominate the car industry, so what happened?

The US manufacturers have steadily lost market share. Toyota passed Ford to become the #2 automaker (based on worldwide sales) and is steadily gaining on GM for #1. Further Toyota is about to pass Chrysler in the US market (~11% vs ~12% market share respectively) Chrysler nearly went bankrupt and was eventually bought by Daimler-Benz. Lexus (Toyota again) passed Cadillac and Lincoln to become the #1 selling luxury car brand in the US. US automakers sell nearly every small/compact car for a loss because of inefficient manufacuturing and high labor/pension costs. Toyota and Honda are leading the charge into hybrid automobiles, well ahead of US auto firms. Hybrids are very likely to be the next dominant technology in autos. The light auto segment the US manufacturers have held onto is pickups/SUVs that have accounted for the majority of their profits in recent years, and they are starting to lose their death grip on that segment too. Recent gas prices won't help SUV sales either.

While I'm painting a bit more bleak picture than it actually is for Ford and GM but if you think nothing happened in the industry due to the Japanese, you simply don't understand the industry. I wouldn't say the Japanese or US manufacturers dominate (no one does) but I can say that Japanese automakers have had a HUGE impact on the industry, largely at the expense of the US manufacturers. Most of the recent innovations in manufacturing processes (Just-in-time, lean manufacuturing, etc) were pioneered by Japanese manufacturers. I'm a manufacturing operations engineer and I've been to and conducted statstical analysis of plants for most of the big auto companies and the Japanese simply are better manufacturers overall. You don't even have to take my word for it, there is plenty of evidence out there to support me. But I've been there and I can tell you that Ford & GM are playing catch up. The reason they haven't lost (read gone-bankrupt/aquired) is that auto manufacuturing isn't strictly a price game. Styling, dealer/sales networks, and historical buying preferences matter. And the US manufacturers aren't complete incompetents. But if it were strictly a matter of price/performance GM and Ford would already be gone.

+3 Inspiteful

[Anonymous Coward]

Pakistan fundmentalist dictatorship?

Dictatorship? yes.
But the dictatorship is more secular than fundamentalist. The fundamentalists are in
the opposition.

Don't blame Pakistan and let India slide on the fundamentalist epithet, either.

Dell does NOT manufacture overseas for US Market!

[twifosp]

Well, if people stopped buying foreign products (including not buying Dells and such that are manufactured over seas and branded as American products) and therefore only bought American products we would have a huge boost in the economy with more revenue bein generated and more money available for education and everything else.

This is a flat out untrue statement.

Dell does manufacture computers overseas yes, but currently ALL computers sold by Dell in the US are manufactured in the US.

Foriegn factories are for foriegn markets. Tech support, is completely different. As you already know.

Now the actual PARTS used for these computers are built overseas, but find a computer part that isn't.

Uh: Japan DOES dominate the car industry

[mbkennel]

The brands with the highest customer satisfaction in, of all places, Germany? Toyota and Honda.

In the rest of the planet, it is Japanese model cars almost everywhere, with a few rich potentates owning Benzes.

Here in California, practically the only American cars (not trucks) are rentals.

Now with oil and gasoline getting expensive to match geophysical truth, people aren't buying the idiot trucks for city commuting. And who's way ahead in hybrids and efficiency? Toyota and Honda.

Here in SoCal, I practically see as many new Priuses (a single model in short supply) as all new american passenger cars which aren't rentals.

Japan dominates the global car industry in power, efficiency, execution and innovation and the gap continues to grow.

American success wasn't just bootstraps

[mbkennel]

but large scale societal policies, attitudes and investment to enable people who tugged on their footwear to get good jobs which contributed to a fundmentally higher standard of living for all.

There is no evidence that people now work less hard or are any less smart.

Despite the propaganda, there is no evidence there is any shortage of US scientists and engineers. There is a shortage of US science and engineering *careers*.

Resistance is futile?

[DigitalSoldierX]

If I am going to be assimilated by India I should probably pick a Hindi god to worship. I am not sure which god to worshop though. There are so many interesting ones to choose from.

Re:Resistance is futile?

[Sanga]

Choosing a Hindi God to worship might put you in the bad books of other language Gods.

Choose a Hindu God instead.

Japanese competition

[weston]

Nonsense. The same things were said when Japan made a move to dominate the car industry, so what happened?

Whew! We have nothing to worry about! The Chinese-Indian challenge to the American-dominated computer industry will be as innefectual and short-lived as the Japanese challenge to American auto-makers.

Cheap goods from free trades

[Tungbo]

US employees are also consumers who already HAVE benefited from cheaper goods imported from other countries: clothing, steel, electronics, food, petroleum, etc.

Where you are unable to benefits from outsourced goods/services is where the higher level of US wages make the real impact: Real Estate, transportation, personal services (education, health care, etc.) (Check out the Paul Krugman column in the NYT on how the rising costs of health care impact both companies and individuals. Always an insightful read.) The US businesses are subject to most of these same costs unless they can PHSICALLY locate their operations offshore.

Thus, it is very interesting how the current political Powers that Be is refusing to remove tax BENEFITS to company with oversea operations. For ideological reasons, they refuse to enact changes that might somewhat recover these savings when US companies relocate offshore.

Try telling that to General Motors.

[mosel-saar-ruwer]

Today, after lots of plant closings, the UAW has realized that they need to work together with the company to find solutions that build the business as a whole while maintaining a fair cut for them.

Try telling that to General Motors, which is required by its UAW contracts to pay employees for NOT working [hence GM is forced to sell cars at a loss, under "Zero Percent Financing" schemes, just to keep their assembly lines running - i.e. they would lose even more money if the assembly lines were idle, because they would still be responsible for paying the same wages as if the assembly lines were running].

To see what this has done to GM, search the recent news headlines for general+motors+junk.

That doesn't mean organized labor is inherently bad.

Au contraire, organized ANYTHING is bad, and organized labor is particularly bad.