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French Courts Ban DRM on DVDs

blamanj writes "According to a story on Boing-Boing, the French courts have banned DRM copy-protection on DVDs, because it is a consumer right to make a backup or to change formats (in this case, to VHS). Original story (in French) is also available."

113 of 605 comments (clear)

  1. for once... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    the French make the right decision! Guess I don't have to worry about my "backed-up" DVDs then ;)

    1. Re:for once... by Eunuchswear · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So, maybe you could cite a case where they made the wrong decision?

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    2. Re:for once... by wfijvvz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Is this really the "right" decision? This is not what we should want. We don't want courts or legislation dictating how we provide our content. Just like we don't want courts and legislation dictating how we should consume our content. Organizations should be free to encumber their products with encrypted copy protected nonsense. Just as we should be free to circumvent that nonsense. CSS is not the problem. It's laws like the DMCA that are the problem.

    3. Re:for once... by garbletext · · Score: 5, Funny
    4. Re:for once... by Pofy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I would rather see it as a consumer protection issue. Basically, if you want to sell "media" to consumers, make sure it is easy accessible and don't force the consumer into accepting various restrictions through laws OR contracts. There are many other such consumer "protecting" laws to make sure consumers have SOME protection.

    5. Re:for once... by Queer+Boy · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I want sunshine and lollipops, I want gummi bears and kittens. I want fluffy clouds and happy fun time. Where the fuck is it?

      We have a double-agent in the government, it both protects and abuses us. Our only hope going forward is we can swing them our way. Forbidding DRM makes things like the DMCA irrelevant. This also levels the field for a lot of hardware manufacturers. They no longer have to pay a fee to make DVD players.

      The end result may be that DVDs won't be sold in France but there's this little thing called the European Union...if they refuse to sell DVDs to France, they cannot do business in the Union. So no DVDs for Europe? Doubt it.

      --
      Not since Marie-Antoinette played milkmaid has looking simple and honest been so fake and complicated.
    6. Re:for once... by Atzanteol · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Try selling some Nazi memorabilia in France sometime.

      I'm not sure I agree with the French courts on this case. Though i strongly disagree with the US courts WRT the DMCA. I think government should just "not be involved" to this extent and let existing laws stand.

      I don't see why everybody is clamoring for government interference.

      --
      "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

      - Charles Darwin
    7. Re:for once... by nganju · · Score: 3, Funny


      Q: Why did the French give us the Statue of Liberty instead of putting it up in Paris?

      A: It's not really their style. The statue only has ONE hand in the air.

      --
      There are 2 kinds of people in this world. Those that can keep their train of thought,
    8. Re:for once... by macthulhu · · Score: 2, Funny

      Oh sure... Now they want to get tough on the Nazis...

      --

      Someday a real rain is gonna come...

    9. Re:for once... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      from the article you linked to....

      "The term "Maginot Line" has been used as a metaphor for something that is confidently relied upon despite being ineffectual. In fact, it did exactly what it was intended to do, sealing off a section of France, and forcing an aggressor around it (and the few forts of the Maginot line which were directly attacked by German armoured troops held very well)."

      I gues it just depends on if you need something to bash or not.

    10. Re:for once... by Johan+Veenstra · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But noone can force them to sell the DVD's with frence voice-over/subtitles....

    11. Re:for once... by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 5, Insightful

      CSS is a big problem. It's how they implement their illegal price fixing.

      It's illegal to sell the same product for different prices in different markets and attempt to prevent enterprising individuals from reselling the product if the price difference is sufficient to make it profitable.

      Like selling discs in the east for a buck, selling them in North America for 20 and using region coding to prevent us from ordering discs from overseas. Or selling them in North America and preventing them from being resold in Europe.

      CSS and region coding aren't about copy protection at all. Copy protection is just the excuse they use to justify their price fixing measures.

      It's not really that different from that RAM price fixing story that ran the last couple of days, and if there was any justice, the perps would be dealt with the same way. But, of course, there isn't any justice, just goons in government uniforms acting on behalf of the highest bidder.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    12. Re:for once... by civilizedINTENSITY · · Score: 3, Informative

      This came up in my Marketing class just this semester. It is illegal in the United States to price discriminate. However, this law doesn't apply to the case in question, because they aren't trying to sell for artifical prices in, say, California vs Kansas. Rather, they are discriminating against global geographic areas, which is beyound the jurisdistion of the US law. So it isn't illegal. (But it should be.)

    13. Re:for once... by RoLi · · Score: 2, Insightful
      We don't want courts or legislation dictating how we provide our content.

      So you want the courts and legislation to keep out of the way and just let everybody copy everthing as they please?

      Please keep in mind that all that copyright-stuff is upheld by - and only by - courts and legislation. Some people even argue that copyright is a rather late invention by those institutions, AFAIK there was no copyright about 300 years ago and earlier.

      Therefore, OF COURSE they will have a say in the matter.

    14. Re:for once... by Scrameustache · · Score: 4, Informative

      Q: Why did the French give us the Statue of Liberty instead of putting it up in Paris?

      They have the original scale model in Paris.
      It's the size of an ordinary statue, but it's exactly the same otherwise.

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    15. Re:for once... by antiMStroll · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "We don't want courts or legislation dictating how we provide our content."

      They already do. People don't got to Sony or Warner jails for breaking DRM. The goverment dictates, at the behest of corporations, how we - the real 'we', the we who elect supposed representatives to political positons - what can be done with content. Now if you're arguing to remove both interventions and return to no government intrusion I'm right behind you.

    16. Re:for once... by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 3, Informative

      Well, there are definately laws against international cartels price fixing in Canada, there have been some pretty hefty fines. A recent reference

      Here in Canada conspiring to isolate Canada from foreign markets so you can jack up the Canadian prices without competition is definately illegal. I would imagine most countries have some means of protecting themselves from this sort of activity.

      The whole dodge is, make the discs region coded and encrypted with css to make them useless when played in the wrong player and make it illegal to sell multiregion drives because they circumvent copy protection and most countries are receptive to that sort of thing these days. Just like that, you've got your price fixing in effect, but you're doing it all to "protect against piracy". Selling DVDs for a $1 in Asia and not being vulnerable to competition from your distribution chain when you sell them for $20 in other countries is just a side benefit....

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    17. Re:for once... by Stephan+Schulz · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I'm not sure I agree with the French courts on this case. Though i strongly disagree with the US courts WRT the DMCA. I think government should just "not be involved" to this extent and let existing laws stand.
      That is exactly what most courts do - let the existing law stand. Typically, only constitutional courts can change (well, invalidate) laws. What the court decided was that copy protection on DVDs violates current French law.
      I don't see why everybody is clamoring for government interference.
      Either you are for "government interference" or you are for anarchism. Are you arguing for anarchy or for the status quo?
      --

      Stephan

  2. Great, fair use copy! by plsavaria · · Score: 5, Interesting

    But this judgement goes in the opposite direction of the EMI case, by a Versailles appeal juge. They said EMI could apply the copy protection scheme on audio-CD, given that the costumers knew what they bought. The court asked EMI to give 10 000E to UFC-Que choisir to repair the moral damage, since this system cause some players not to read their audio-CDs. http://www.clubic.com/actualite-19778-la-protectio n-dvd-rendue-illegale-.html/

    --
    The answer IS 42.
    1. Re:Great, fair use copy! by ycochard · · Score: 5, Informative

      This case is different, because the DVD was not correctly labelled. There was a small CP (for "Copie Prohibee", which means "copy unauthorized"), which has been decided by the court to be not enough to inform the customer about the protection.

    2. Re:Great, fair use copy! by DavidTC · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm fairly certain that would translate better as 'copy prohibited'.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    3. Re:Great, fair use copy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But this judgement goes in the opposite direction of the EMI case

      No, it doesn't. It is consistent with the audio CD case. In that, the initial question was whether suit could be brought simply for the existence of the protection. The answer was no, if it was disclosed. But the further question of whether the protection, if it interfered with proper playback, was actionable was answered in the affirmative. You can sue and win if the protection interferes with your playback of the media.

      Just like in the present case you can sue and win (pending appeal) if the protection interferes with your ability to make copies of the media in a different format for the purpose of playback. Put more succinctly, you can sue and win if the protection interferes with your playback of the media, even if the playback you desire requires copying the media.

  3. Time to get an Ebay account.. by halivar · · Score: 4, Funny

    Looks like I'll be buying my movies from France here on out. It's not like the MPAA would stop selling DVD's in France...

    Would they?

    1. Re:Time to get an Ebay account.. by ohzero · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Unfortunately, just because the French are creating national law which "allows" them to copy DVDs, doesn't mean that DVD manufacturers are going to adhere to that law - or for that matter, start shipping disparate versions of movies to France. It would be a massive cost issue.

      --
      -- http://www.criticalassets.com
    2. Re:Time to get an Ebay account.. by halivar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Too true. However, this may make programs such as DeCSS legal in France, which means French servers can make the program available.

    3. Re:Time to get an Ebay account.. by Nogami_Saeko · · Score: 2, Insightful

      True, but it also should mean that DVD copying software and region-free, macrovision free players will be not only widely available (although they are already), but also will be legally available.

      N.

      --
      "Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence." - Charles de Gaulle
    4. Re:Time to get an Ebay account.. by Captain_Chaos · · Score: 2, Informative

      Looks like I'll be buying my movies from France here on out.

      Unfortunately, they won't play on an American player, due to some more obnoxious Digital pRrofit enhanceMent technology...

    5. Re:Time to get an Ebay account.. by Fancia · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's not really true; France already gets separate DVDs from, say, Britain because of language of packaging and DVD menus. Even the relatively small province of Quebec in Canada sometimes gets separate DVDs from the rest of the country.

      --

      Bít, zabít, jen proto, ze su liska!
    6. Re:Time to get an Ebay account.. by christophe · · Score: 4, Informative

      This was not the government, this is a single judge with more brain. On this subject, the current French government is following the same line as the US.
      I do not expect much of this judgment. All we will win is "Copy protected" written on all DVDs.

      --
      Christophe (Don't hesitate to point out my spelling and grammar mistakes, I want to learn - Thanks).
    7. Re:Time to get an Ebay account.. by Dun+Malg · · Score: 5, Insightful
      but who the hell is the French government to say what kind of copy protection companies can and cannot put on their own damn products? Like it or not, those companies OWN that content, and they are selling it to you. If they don't want you to copy it, they have every right to put a copy protection scheme on it beforehand.

      Your interpretation of the basic premise of copyright law is in error. They don't own the content, they own the copyright. This right to copy is a government granted limited monopoly of producing copies of a given work. It is not up to the copyright owner to determine the legal reach of this monopoly, it is up to the courts and the legislatures. If the French courts decide that this government-granted monopoly does not extend to limiting personal copying for the purpose of transfering to a different media format, then that's just tough nuts.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
  4. finally some sense. by mrsev · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Bless you France for your gift of liberty.

    1. Re:finally some sense. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      You mean the big statue in New York? I guess slashdot really IS late with the news lately!

    2. Re:finally some sense. by maxwell+demon · · Score: 4, Funny

      Now would be a good time to rename Freedom Fries back to French Fries ;-)

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    3. Re:finally some sense. by vikramrn · · Score: 3, Funny

      FreeDRM Fries?

    4. Re:finally some sense. by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 2
      Why can't you and someone you do business with make your own terms of agreement?
      Because
      • The LAW is supreme
      • Rich people have no right to screw poor people with illegal contracts
      • Contracts cannot force people to do illegal things
  5. Rock on, France by caluml · · Score: 5, Funny

    I like the French. They cut through the crap, and they have pretty girls. Like that court ruling that you could pirate stuff, as you'd already paid the "piracy" tax on the blank CDs. Rock on, La France.

    1. Re:Rock on, France by MarkGriz · · Score: 4, Funny

      So, do we like the French now?
      Should I return my Freedom Fries and exchange them for French Fries?

      --
      Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder.
    2. Re:Rock on, France by FunWithHeadlines · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "So, do we like the French now?"

      Your humor aside, I'm surprised at how many people in America ask similar questions in a serious way, as if they really do want someone to tell them how to think. Well, some of us totally ignored the anti-French propaganda of a couple of years ago. We think for ourselves.

      Any time you put yourself in a position where you allow others to think on your behalf, you become completely dependent on their honesty and integrity. Throw in the saying about power corrupting, and you have a recipe for disaster every single time. Think for yourself.

    3. Re:Rock on, France by schon · · Score: 4, Informative

      wasn't the "pirate tax" Canadian, not French?

      If you're referring to a levy on blank media, I think you'll find that most "first world" countries have one, including the USA, which had it long before Canada did.

    4. Re:Rock on, France by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 2, Funny
      Any time you put yourself in a position where you allow others to think on your behalf, you become completely dependent on their honesty and integrity


      Well, yeah, but the people who think for me are trustworthy. They told me so.
      --
      Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
    5. Re:Rock on, France by learn+fast · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Moreover it's retarded to think of France and all things French as some sort of homogenous class that should be entirely hated or loved. It's perfectly OK to like some things, like their women and their food, and not like other things like their snooty attitude. And even then those have caveats, like French women can be snooty, and the French only seem to act snooty because you don't understand their politeness rules (they think you're being rude to them).

    6. Re:Rock on, France by christophe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      >While some fools honestly did hate the french,
      > and went all out with their "Freedom Fries",
      > most people didn't do much more than make >french jokes. Not to offend, but just for
      > laughs.
      > Also, the French deserve it.

      Do not worry, we French do not hate Americans as much as we seem, we too like to make jokes.
      And you deserve it too :-)

      --
      Christophe (Don't hesitate to point out my spelling and grammar mistakes, I want to learn - Thanks).
    7. Re:Rock on, France by displaced80 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Exactly.

      People are keenly sensitive to custom. Even if you think you're being perfectly poilite for how your neighbourhood behave, you could unwittingly appear rude or arrogant in others. 'Neighbourhood' was a deliberate choice of word: the idea applies equally to regions of a single country and nations on different continents.

      I've day-tripped to France (I live in Kent, UK). I have little more than schoolboy French, but I make the effort. More often than not, I have to resort to "Excuse-moi, parlez vous anglais?". Often, we struggle along in our respective pidgin English or French... but luckily many people in north-west France seem to have better English than my French!

      It's the little things that count. If you walk into a shop, you always greet the shop keeper. Always. Back home, I'd only occasionally do that, and even then it'd just be a hurried smile and a 'Hi' as I rush through the checkout. Do that in France, and people are gonna think you're rude.

      Even here in the UK, you say pleases and thankyou's to people who serve you. Sure, you don't greet in the same way the French do, but you *do* adhere to some basic courtesy. In some cultures, that's not the case. It's not unusual to find the "They're being paid to serve me, so they do not require thanking" custom, and of course the flip-side, "I'm being paid to serve them, why should they thank me?".

      Basically, understand that things just work differently everywhere. When you go abroad, you most likely will cause offence at some point or another, be you American, French, British, German, Nigerian, Guatemalan, Whatever-the-hell-an. The best you can do is live, learn, and try to hold off on being judgemental until you've got a half-decent grasp on how others lead their lives.

      --
      What's the frequency, Kenneth?
    8. Re:Rock on, France by aiabx · · Score: 2, Funny

      Man, it makes me piss blood to think that I have to pay Celine Dion to back up my imaging data.
      -aiabx

      --
      Just this guy, you know?
  6. EU? by LoaTao · · Score: 2, Funny

    et tu?

    --
    The smartest man in the whole, wide world really don't know that much. - Mose Allison
  7. In a related matter... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    The French are invaded by the MPAA. Resistance crumbles within the hour.

    -ShadowRanger

  8. bizzarro-world? by cmburns69 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So what's going on here? Generally we don't like what the french courts are doing (such as their lawsuits against nazi junk on auction sites), but this seems like a Good Thing (tm).

    Is this another thing that appears to be good, but actually creates more problems than it solves? Or is it truly a boon for DVD lovers everywhere?

    --
    Online Starcraft RPG? At
    Dietary fiber is like asynchronous IO-- Non-blocking!
  9. Freedom DVDs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    No wonder people called them Freedom Fries. It seems the French are endowed with the natural freedoms us Americans have become used to losing.

  10. Hooray! by ssj_195 · · Score: 3, Funny

    From this day forth, I proclaim the French to be the bravest, politest and sweetest-smelling of all Nations! Let's hope this extends to the next generation of media, also.

  11. I'm so confused! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    But the french! They hate google! They didn't support our war! They... they... put mayonnaise on their fren- freedom fries! They're freaks! They're cheese-eating surrender monkeys! I don't care if they gave us the statue of liberty or helped us in the war of independence! They... they... [head explodes]

    1. Re:I'm so confused! by lovebyte · · Score: 2, Informative

      They... they... put mayonnaise on their fren- freedom fries!
      This is heresy! The Belgian and the Dutch put mayonnaise on their fries, not the French. The latter have taste, obviously.

      --

      I'll do it for cheesy poofs.

    2. Re:I'm so confused! by PhilHibbs · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'm afraid I'm going to have to come down on the side of the Belgians and Dutch, mayonnaise on fries is awesome.

    3. Re:I'm so confused! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'm afraid I'm going to have to come down on the side of the Belgians and Dutch...

      Dude, nasty. It's bad enough with the mayonnaise already on it.

  12. English Translation before the slashburning begins by danielcole · · Score: 5, Informative

    Source (linked to by the boingboing article)
    http://www.allpeers.com/blog/?page_id=11 3

    UFC-Que Choisir (a French consumer protection organization) has been granted a prohibition on DVD copy protection devices by the Paris Court of Appeal, these devices having been judged to be incompatible with private copying rights.

    Arnaud Devillard, 01net., April 22, 2005 at 7:28pm

    What consumer protection groups have not yet succeeded in gaining for CDs, they have just obtained for DVDs. On April 22nd, the Paris Court of Appeal prohibited the use of DVD-based copy protection systems. The reason? The incompatibility of this practice with private copying rights.

    Two companies, Les Films Alain Sarde and Studio Canal, thus suffered a serious setback after having won the case in the Court of First Instance at the end of April 2004.

    UFC-Que Choisir latched onto the case of a consumer who was unable to copy a DVD of Mulholland Drive, a David Lynch film produced by Alain Sarde and Studio Canal, onto a video cassette. This person wanted to watch the film at his mother's, who did not have a DVD player. The strict familial context mandated for the exercise of private copying rights was therefore applicable.

    The tribunal also faulted the DVD producers for lack of consumer information. This was not entirely absent but was judged to be insufficient. The label "CP" for "Copy Protected" was indeed present on the jacket, but in "small characters" and not sufficiently explicit.

    A worrying judgement for the French Video Producers' Association.

    Les Films Alain Sarde and Studio Canal have one month to unblock their DVDs. At the same time, Alain Sarde and Universal Pictures Video France must pay 100 euros in damages to the consumer in question. The same two companies, and Studio Canal, must also pay him 150 euros as well as 1,500 euros to the consumer association.

    On the other hand, the court refused the request for damages and interest by UFC-Que Choisir against Studio Canal. The consumer association admitted to a legal misstep on its part, having chosen the wrong target for its request. The court also refused to release a judiciary communiqué on the decision.

    It goes without saying, however, that UFC-Que Choisir is more than satisfied, as the damages and interest were not the main object of the case. This was rather the acceptance of its argument regarding private copying. This, and the fact that the decision can be applied to other cases "as long as the original DVD was purchased legally," says Gaëlle Patetta of the association's legal department.

    But for the delegate general of the Video Producers' Association, Jean-Yves Mirski, the decision is "worrisome". Not having had the time to analyze the decision in detail, the VPA has not yet decided whether to appeal the decision to a higher court (the Court of Cassation). But this is far from out of the question.

    In any case, according to Jean-Yves Mirski, this judicial turn of events "directly contradicts the European Copyright Directive." The latter permits the use of copy protection systems. This will certainly not make future legal action on this subject any simpler.

  13. french courts are schizophrenics by kinsoa · · Score: 2, Insightful

    just a few days ago, another court said a CD-audio can be copy-protected, under the only condition that the customer is warned before he boughts.

    1. Re:french courts are schizophrenics by masklinn · · Score: 4, Informative
      just a few days ago, another court said a CD-audio can be copy-protected, under the only condition that the customer is warned before he boughts.
      Why yes, and these two judgements don't contradict each other at all:
      The tribunal also faulted the DVD producers for lack of consumer information. This was not entirely absent but was judged to be insufficient. The label "CP" for "Copy Protected" was indeed present on the jacket, but in "small characters" and not sufficiently explicit.
      Basically, there is no problem with copy-protecting your medias, but the consumer must be clearly and explicitely warned that he/she won't be able to (easily) copy the data from the media.
      --
      "The way we can tell it's C# instead of Haskell is because it's nine lines instead of two." -- wadler
  14. great by no+reason+to+be+here · · Score: 4, Funny

    Just when I thought we had finally stopped with the overzealous* French bashing here in the US. There's no way that Bush Co. and his corporate masters will not unleash the anti-French/patriotic jingoism after a ruiling like this.

    just kidding...mostly...

    *I say overzealous because a little French bashing, a la The Onion's "France Surrenders" second headlines in Our Dumb Century is a good thing.

  15. This could get interesting by Thornkin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Wow. Something good coming out of France. Who'da thought?

    I wonder what will happen here. The French market is not so large that it gets all DVDs made specifically for it. Instead, they tend to use multiple languages and market to a lot of Europe at the same time. If that is the case, do the big media companies stop selling in France or do they start selling non-protected DVDs more broadly? This could get interesting. I wonder if France's actions will snowball or make it a backwater for digital media.

    1. Re:This could get interesting by christophe · · Score: 2, Informative

      >The French market is not so large that it gets
      > all DVDs made specifically for it. Instead,
      > they tend to use multiple languages and market
      > to a lot of Europe at the same time. If that is
      > the case, do the big media companies stop
      > selling in France or do they start selling
      > non-protected DVDs more broadly?

      French market is 60 millions people; add the French speaking Belgians and Swiss, that's 1/5th of the US.
      We have our edition of about anything Hollywood produces (French speaking, with French as default language on the DVD, French 'do not copy' warnings, French trailers), and a rather strong cinema industry.
      For comparison, only "small" countries like Denmark are not big enough to justify doubling actors'voices. Producing another version of a DVD is nothing in comparison.

      --
      Christophe (Don't hesitate to point out my spelling and grammar mistakes, I want to learn - Thanks).
  16. Go and boil your bottoms! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    I blow my nose at you, so-called "DRM" - you and all your silly corporate supporters!

  17. Remember "Freedom Fries"? by Swamii · · Score: 4, Funny

    Maybe we ought to rename French DVDs as "Freedom DVDs", but this time not as a political statement, but rather because of the true freedom one has in DRM-less content.

    --
    Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit
  18. DMCA is much more important by MC68000 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    For me, the MPAA should be able to sell DVDs with any amount of DRM that they desire, as long as they indicate that the DVD is DRMed. I just want the right to be able to break the encryption, or even do simple things like interoperate my devices without being sued.

    --
    E = m c^3 Don't drink and derive E = m c^3
  19. free speech by delirium+of+disorder · · Score: 4, Funny

    If you really believe in free speech you should admit that Corporations and individuals both should have the right to distribute (and sell) any kind of information they want. Anti-DRM leglisation is socialist and wrong. If citizens get too used to the government protecting them, they will have weak bullshit detectors and will become dependent on the nanny state to tell them how to be "free". As long as no person or property is physically harmed, the government should stay the fuck out of the way. Bring the DRM on!!! Let the idiotic masses pay too much for RIAA music and MPAA movies that they can only watch in very restricted ways. Anyone with at least some partially functioning cognative tissue in their heads will just find innovative indipendent artists. A new market for cheep intelligent media that allows fair use (probably distributed via the internet) will emerge.

    --
    ------ Take away the right to say fuck and you take away the right to say fuck the government.
    1. Re:free speech by MC68000 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Agreed. The government should not be involved at all. Then a nice balance between producer and consumer rights can be achieved. However, when I say that the government should not be involved, that includes laws like the DMCA. Government should do nothing more than provide the framework for the MPAA to take individual copyright infingers to court, and get its head out of the details of making or breaking DRM technology.

      --
      E = m c^3 Don't drink and derive E = m c^3
    2. Re:free speech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you really believe in free speech you should admit that Corporations and individuals both should have the right to distribute (and sell) any kind of information they want.

      Unless, of course, you disagree with the ruling that Corporations have the same rights as real living human beings.

    3. Re:free speech by AviLazar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If the gov't doesn't protect me, then who will? Do I have enough money to fight the MPAA/RIAA in court? Do I have enough money to buy the latest and greatest security technology? Do I have the money to support an army so that an invading country doesn't kill me? The gov't works to protect everyone in it's boarders (and sometimes outside). It may not be perfect, but it is better then nothing. Saying "anti-drm legislation is socialist and wrong" because it is a law to protect people is foolish. That is like saying "Anti-drinking and driving legislation is socialist and wrong." Again, our legislation system may not be perfect, but it is better the nothing.

      --

      I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
    4. Re:free speech by t_allardyce · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They voted for socialism its their call. Personally I like it, the masses are generally too stupid to do things the way I want them to, they don't know what's good for them. Left to their own devices people would quite happily buy this crap - the market wouldn't have decided the 'right' way. The government (of the people) steps in and makes everyone do the right thing without actually forcing them to do anything - its pretty much like a union - they vote to strike, everyone has to strike, except in fact no-one is striking, the government aren't stopping people from _buying_ DRM DVD's they are just stopping people from _selling_ them.

      Since the government is elected by the 'majority' they decide that everyone must play by the same rules even if the majority in fact don't agree - Its first-round the post, winner-takes-all, im sure America is familiar with those terms. In a way its just like narcotics - although I disagree with banning _some_ drugs because it doesn't actually personally affect me if people buy drugs (crime is a result of banning drugs not the other way around), however it does affect me if people buy into DRM bullshit because then I have no choice but to buy it too (if I want to buy that particular title). At the end of the day I accept both political systems and it wouldn't bother me too much either way, but America certainly isn't perfect in regards to not being a nanny state.

      --
      This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
    5. Re:free speech by Maffy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Who said anything about individuals giving up their rights?

      I believe the grandparent was questioning the morality of corporations having rights in addition to those of their members.

      Matt

    6. Re:free speech by delirium+of+disorder · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't support the PATRIOT act or the DMCA. I agree with your assessment that corporations do not really deserve ANY rights, but under the current legal system corporations are deamed legal persons. This should be changed, but its a seperate issue. I still stand by what I said originally. What if an INDIVIDUAL wants to sell some DRM software? They should be able to do it. You don't need consumer rights, you need human rights. If you give people free speech and free assembly they will form unions and boycots and will crush unjust corporate practices. We don't need the government to decide what is dangerous or true. Blatant lying in advertising and selling hazardous products should be allowed because I believe people are the best judges of what is true, not the government. If the masses are so easily duped, they are idiots and get what they deserve. You can't save people from themselves. (Think of the irrational drug war) If you allow free speech, eventually people will learn who they can trust. Compare a heavily government regulated media-- TV, to a free one--the Internet. On TV there a quite a narow corporate agenda that nevertheless is mostly free from blatent lies and the selling of dangerous things. The internet containes lots of harmful and false information, but also has data on issues that corporations refuse to report. The diversity and freedom of the internet creates smarter media consummers.

      --
      ------ Take away the right to say fuck and you take away the right to say fuck the government.
    7. Re:free speech by delirium+of+disorder · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The bullshit detector can only develop when you have both harmful propaganda and a rational alternative; most Americans have been denied the later. There is not a "Lack of government protection" in the US. Our TV and radio stations are a government enforced monopoly. The FCC only issues liscences to an elite few corporations (with the small but noteable exception of university radio). The internet is the best example we have of a free medium where both the truth and the outragous lies are allowed to propigate. I believe that the truth eventually wins out. This is why wikipedia.org is a better source for information then foxnews.com.

      The people in those "socialist" countries appear to be a lot more aware of their freedoms, despite the government giving them many protections.

      Governments go do three things regarding the people and corporations: they can help the corporations to the detriment of the people (the US model), or they can help the people by restricting corporations (the state socialist model), or they can leave things be and let the free market decide (the libertarian model....libertarianism can be either capitalist or socialist. Libertarian capitalism assumes the corporations will compete and improve as a result...libertarian socialism assumes that the masses will get sick of the corporate bullshit and take things into their own hands by developing alternative free industries or by unionising, or etc)

      I perfer the socialist model to the US (fascist) model, but like the libertarian-socialist model best.

      --
      ------ Take away the right to say fuck and you take away the right to say fuck the government.
    8. Re:free speech by Sloppy · · Score: 2, Informative
      The government should not be involved at all.
      ...
      Government should do nothing more than provide the framework for the MPAA to take individual copyright infingers to court
      The problem with that policy, is the word "infringer." You can't have infringers without having copyright, and the establishment of copyright is a premise where government is already involved. Copyright is a government-granted monopoly, and the government does this, based on the assumption that at the end of the copyright term, the work will lapse into public domain and can then be readily copied.

      DRM violates this assumption.

      Either 1) DRM should be prohibited, or 2) DRMed works should not be granted copyright. The first solution is what it sounds like maybe the French are doing. The second solution is a true "get government out of this mess" approach, but keep in mind that it means there isn't any need for courts either, since there's no such thing as infringement.

      Just saying that government should stay out of the DRM issue, but still allow copyright, is a half-assed approach, where government isn't really uninvolved. It is not laissez-faire.

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
  20. DVDs usually don't even have CSS in France by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative
    Hello,

    Most of the DVDs I have purchased in France don't even have CSS protection. A lot of them seem to be cheaply made too - a shitty menu stuck with just French and English soundtrack and the standard film with chapters. These DVDs are a lot cheaper than the special edition (often less than 10) and are very quick to rip to my hard drive.

    The PAL standard is an advantage too, it being higher resolution and framerate than the NTSC stuff on my zone 1 DVDs...

  21. Due to /. Effect - Content of Above Link by silid · · Score: 2, Informative

    (Translated from the original French.)

    UFC-Que Choisir (a French consumer protection organization) has been granted a prohibition on DVD copy protection devices by the Paris Court of Appeal, these devices having been judged to be incompatible with private copying rights.

    Arnaud Devillard, 01net., April 22, 2005 at 7:28pm

    What consumer protection groups have not yet succeeded in gaining for CDs, they have just obtained for DVDs. On April 22nd, the Paris Court of Appeal prohibited the use of DVD-based copy protection systems. The reason? The incompatibility of this practice with private copying rights.

    Two companies, Les Films Alain Sarde and Studio Canal, thus suffered a serious setback after having won the case in the Court of First Instance at the end of April 2004.

    UFC-Que Choisir latched onto the case of a consumer who was unable to copy a DVD of Mulholland Drive, a David Lynch film produced by Alain Sarde and Studio Canal, onto a video cassette. This person wanted to watch the film at his mothers, who did not have a DVD player. The strict familial context mandated for the exercise of private copying rights was therefore applicable.

    The tribunal also faulted the DVD producers for lack of consumer information. This was not entirely absent but was judged to be insufficient. The label CP for Copy Protected was indeed present on the jacket, but in small characters and not sufficiently explicit.

    A worrying judgement for the French Video Producers Association.

    Les Films Alain Sarde and Studio Canal have one month to unblock their DVDs. At the same time, Alain Sarde and Universal Pictures Video France must pay 100 euros in damages to the consumer in question. The same two companies, and Studio Canal, must also pay him 150 euros as well as 1,500 euros to the consumer association.

    On the other hand, the court refused the request for damages and interest by UFC-Que Choisir against Studio Canal. The consumer association admitted to a legal misstep on its part, having chosen the wrong target for its request. The court also refused to release a judiciary communiqué on the decision.

    It goes without saying, however, that UFC-Que Choisir is more than satisfied, as the damages and interest were not the main object of the case. This was rather the acceptance of its argument regarding private copying. This, and the fact that the decision can be applied to other cases as long as the original DVD was purchased legally, says Gaëlle Patetta of the associations legal department.

    But for the delegate general of the Video Producers Association, Jean-Yves Mirski, the decision is worrisome. Not having had the time to analyze the decision in detail, the VPA has not yet decided whether to appeal the decision to a higher court (the Court of Cassation). But this is far from out of the question.

    In any case, according to Jean-Yves Mirski, this judicial turn of events directly contradicts the European Copyright Directive. The latter permits the use of copy protection systems. This will certainly not make future legal action on this subject any simpler.

  22. Time to learn French? by nokiator · · Score: 3, Funny
    Note that the French court did not declare it illegal to keep the English sound track and/or English subtitles in encrypted format!

    This must be a plot to return the French language back to its world wide popularity!

    :)

  23. Easy for the courts to understand. by BrookHarty · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think the case was easy to understand, easier for a Judge to agree.

    This is after a man who was not able to copy a DVD he purchase to a VHS cassette so he can watch it at his mother's place. Which is considered private copying and is a consumer right in France.

    Until it affects you, and you can see the problem, most people dont understand the issue. This was the perfect example of people seeing the outcome of copyprotection on something you bought and no longer have control over how you use it.

    Of course, I have no idea if I can copy a DVD to VHS tape legally for my own personal use in America, with the laws being passed on riders on bills for IRAQ, who knows.

    1. Re:Easy for the courts to understand. by dangitman · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I guess it's much easier to bring a lawsuit instead of spending $50 and buying his mother a DVD player.

      Maybe this is not about what is easy or cheap? Maybe the people supporting this feel that freedom is more important?

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
  24. Implications for De-CSS by MrAndrews · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Granted, this'll get overturned in a heartbeat, but here's something interesting: according to my lawyer-friend, it should be perfectly legal to help people rip their DVDs with De-CSS now, because it's basically become proper fair use. Though he did mention that for anyone hoping to sell a ripping service to les Français, if money trades hands, you'll likely get sued when this is all over. Still, wouldn't this be the first case of it being legal to break encryption?

    1. Re:Implications for De-CSS by masklinn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm pretty sure using DeCSS-like softwares has never been a problem in france, you're allowed personal copy rights, and the means you use to achieve that are up yours. DCMA thingie is only in the US you know (well for now).

      --
      "The way we can tell it's C# instead of Haskell is because it's nine lines instead of two." -- wadler
  25. Would this Count as... by BlackGriffen · · Score: 3, Funny

    a violation of the DMCA? Turning to the courts sounds like a circumvention technology to me.

    BG

  26. Re:the MPAA would stop selling DVD's in France... by G4from128k · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Looks like I'll be buying my movies from France here on out. It's not like the MPAA would stop selling DVD's in France...

    I wonder if this is part of the hidden agenda with the ruling. The French do not like U.S cultural imperialism as embodied by Hollywood movies. If Hollywood's movie distributors stop selling into the French market, will the French be that upset? And if France becomes a center for the distribution of non-DRM DVDs that hurts Hollywood's profits, will the French be that upset?

    It sounds like a win-win proposition for defenders of the French culture.

    --
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
  27. Re:Really? by thetroll123 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Wow, I've never been impressed by France before today.

    No interest in wine, philosophy, mathematics, religion, rugby, food or art, then?

  28. In other news.... by Ride-My-Rocket · · Score: 2, Funny

    The MPAA has banned DVDs in France.

  29. That's a good thing (tm) by Seb+C. · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Obviously, the protection systems are hurting the loyal consumers (yes, there are some, trust me) as a side effect.
    In France, it is legal to copy your CD and DVD, and anything. What is forbidden is to widespread them around, or even worse, selling illegal copies (the latter have always been toughly sued).
    But now, with these protection systems, when you damage your cd/dvd (kids scratching them, anyone ?), you've lost the benefits of them.
    IMHO, i globally agree the idea that you have to pay for what you consume (stealing is BAD. final dot.) -but may disagree on the price it is sold, or the insane way the bill is dispatched to the artists and producer amongst others-.
    A good thing would be to life guarantee the possible exchange of your broken/damaged CD/DVD, thus allowing them to be protected and uncopy-able. Also coming as a MUST is "stop making protection system that make your CD/DVD unusable on some legacy device" (like protected CD that could not be played on car player).
    That would be a good idea. But that implies that the majors invest some money in these, and also implies the majors cares about the consumer as a whole, not only his money...

    my .2 cents

  30. should we cheer this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm not excited. In fact, I'm disappointed.

    This is not what we should want. We don't want courts or legislation dictating how we provide our content. Just like we don't want courts and legislation dictating how we should consume our content.

    Organizations should be free to encumber their products with encrypted copy protected nonsense. Just as we should be free to circumvent that nonsense.

    CSS is not the problem. It's laws like the DMCA that are the problem.

    1. Re:should we cheer this? by SilentTristero · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Wrong. This is exactly why laws are good. The people *do* need protection from corporations. Would you abolish copyright and patents, too?

      Don't throw out the baby (intellectual property rights, on both sides) with the bathwater (the DMCA).

  31. Yeah, but... by Create+an+Account · · Score: 3, Funny

    ... do we like the french, now?

  32. Oui by FunWithHeadlines · · Score: 2, Funny
    For their food alone, oui.

    I'll be contacting you tomorrow with your instructions for the rest of the week. Don't worry, you can trust me to think for you...

  33. New York harbor bereft of Statue of Liberty by Dogtanian · · Score: 2, Funny

    > > Bless you France for your gift of liberty.

    > You mean the big statue in New York? I guess
    > slashdot really IS late with the news lately!

    Regrettably, following the wave of anti-French sentiments in the United States in the past couple of years, the Statue of Liberty was dismantled and sold off for scrap. From a news report:-

    "Although it had become something of a national icon, it was felt that the French-built statue from old Europe had no place in modern America.

    This was necessary to demonstrate that we had the guts to stand up for what we said, even if that meant sacrificing our statue.

    Had we not been willing to back up our words in this way, actions such as the renaming of "French Fries" to "Freedom Fries" would have been seen as cheap-and-easy point scoring or kneejerk xenophobia.

    Our willingness to destroy the Statue of Liberty shows that this is not the case; we have principles and when we say something, we *mean* it."

    --
    "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
  34. Re:English Translation before the slashburning beg by aleatory_story · · Score: 2, Funny

    He wanted to watch Mulholland Drive with his mother? I hope he's comfortable watching it her when the hot lesbian scene comes on.

    --
    Whatever you may be sure of, be sure of this: that you are dreadfully like other people. - James Russell Lowell
  35. The French hate the US by mehgul · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Every morning, 60 million Frenchmen wake up and think about how they can annoy the Americans. Every single day of their lives. Even before taking their first glass of wine and heading to the bakery to get their freshly-baked baguette. This is really their single most important duty to fulfill every day.

    Yes, I know it sounds stupid, but you guys here on /. make it sound like we have nothing else to do of our time than to think about the mighty US of America, how to annoy it, how to counter it. Believe it or not, it happens sometimes that we have ideas, rules, laws of our own, that are not just there to be "against" the US.

    And by the way, even though you almost never see them in the US, there is actually a lot of movies produced in France. This ruling is going mostly to piss off the french movie producers. And there is absolutely no need for a "hidden agenda" to explain it.

    1. Re:The French hate the US by kyojin+the+clown · · Score: 3, Funny
      Actually, every morning 60 Million Frenchmen wake up and think about how much they hate the breeteesh.

      =)

  36. Probably by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Informative

    As always, this isn't legal advice, this is a Slashdot post, if you want real legal advice, get a lawyer in your area. So take it for what it's worth.

    However, my understanding of the DMCA is that it only applies to digital copies and protections. Thus you are still legally allowed to circumvent analogue copy protections, which is what prevents you from copying a DVD to VHS.

    The reason you can't make the copy is Macrovision. It's a "protection" that functions by varying the signal intensity in areas that are off screen. This causes the automatic gain control of the VCR to wig out and you get an unstable signal. Some newer devices actually look for it and will just refuse to accept the signal at all.

    Well you can eaisly get commercial devices that will filter this out with no ill effects. You can then make a copy as normal. As a practical matter, even if these were to become unavailable (they are still around as of today) you could get a semi-pro or pro VCR that will allow you to manually set the gain, which will then copy fine (though the copy will then have Macrovision present on it).

    So at this point it appears to be legal, as well as easy to do. That could change, however.

  37. Too bad.. by nurb432 · · Score: 2, Informative

    It wont migrate across the ocean.. And it will get lobbied into oblivion anyway.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  38. If the ruling sticks... by DrXym · · Score: 2, Informative

    Expect all region free DVDs selling in France to offer *only* French soundtracks and *only* French subtitles. It might actually be beneficial for consumers in France since with less languages, the the quality will be better. Though equally, I expect certain DVD producers to hike their prices, citing "increased costs", even though it costs pennies to master and print DVDs, even if just to one country.

  39. Re:English Translation before the slashburning beg by dangitman · · Score: 5, Funny
    He wanted to watch Mulholland Drive with his mother? I hope he's comfortable watching it her when the hot lesbian scene comes on.

    Ummm, this is France - they have hot lesbian scenes in darned toothpaste commercials.

    --
    ... and then they built the supercollider.
  40. Mulholland Drive by bender647 · · Score: 2, Funny

    I doubt the guy wants to copy the DVD. More likely he wants to edit it to put the scenes into chronological order so we can finally understand what Lynch was thinking.

  41. More Importantly.... the Whole EU by HighOrbit · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What would really rock is if the entire EU adopted an anti-DRM strategy. Since international businesses have to abide by EU rulings (if they want to do business in the hugh market that is the EU), such a ruling EU wide would be effectively world-wide. How do ya like them apples, MPAA?

  42. Re:French Frys? by feandil · · Score: 2, Interesting

    they're no more belgian than they are french, they were actually invented somewhere between Paris and Brusselles. nobody really knows. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fries#History

  43. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That is precisely why France is not particularly impressed with the United States. They make all the same mistakes we do, yet we revel in our mistakes and sneer at them for theirs.

    Yes, they think their culture is SO SUPERIOR. Wait, so do we. Yes, they've got dangerous xenophobic/racist undercurrents against their Muslim and Jewish populations. Wait, so do we. They engaged in a failed colonial experiment in IndoChina. Wait, so did we. They let their country get overrun by fascists in WWII, and many of them even collaborated. Wait, so did we, in 2000, and again in 2004.

    Face it--we ARE the French. That's why we hate them so much.

  44. Re:the MPAA would stop selling DVD's in France... by fabbers · · Score: 2, Informative
    yeah right... easy way to get mod up, imagine a conspiracy theory. Now if you had a look to TFA or even used google, you would know that:
    • the rulling applies to all DVDs, it nevers says explicitly that american movies have to be unprotected. And yes, in France we actually make some DVDs
    • Mulholland Drive was actually produced partly by a french company (http://www.mulholland-drive.net/load.htm?threads/ film.htm/), le studio canal, which now has to remove protection from all its dvds. This is really american imperialism.
    if you want to bash the french, try at least to dig a bit.
  45. Time to Go by Giggles+Of+Doom · · Score: 2, Informative

    That's it, I'm moving to France. First they choose not to support a, in my uninformed opinion, bogus war, but now this. Viva la France!

    --
    "A coward dies a thousand deaths, the brave but one."
  46. It makes sense, though by VernonNemitz · · Score: 3, Informative

    The movie industry has hoisted itself by its petard. How many advertisements have you seen saying "Own it on DVD!"? Well, if they are advertising that they are selling you a copy of the movie, then how can they legally enforce claims that they actually sold you only a licence to view the movie?

    Thus, once the copy is yours, it logically follows that you can do anything with it you like, as far as your personal use is concerned. (Copying it for others is still a copyright violation.)

  47. Another good reason to buy movies in France by Simonetta · · Score: 5, Interesting

    There is another good reason to buy DVDs in France. They are an excellent new tool for learning the language.

    In North America, most new DVDs come with language choices. Most new DVDs are Hollywood productions and their original audio is in English. There is a subtitle set in English for the deaf. This is a great tool for learning English as a Second Language because the student can read the words as they are spoken. Even if the student's grasp of English is not yet to the point where the words can be understood, it is still an important learning tool.
    The hardest part of learning a language like French or English is separating the stream of spoken phrases into individual words. In learning Romance languages like French and Spanish from English (and vice-versa), the vocabulary isn't the biggest problem because 50% of the words are the same. It's the rhythms of the pronunciations that is so hard to understand. Being able to see the words being spoken on the screen as they are being said goes a long way to understanding what is being said after getting an initial mastery of the language's basic vocabulary and grammar structure.

    Hollywood films have a big problem with this learning approach, however. The audio and subtitles are translated by different teams and they never match. For this learning technique to work, you need an exact match between the spoken dialog and the subtitles.
    Movies made in France and put on DVD do have this needed exact match.

    This is a great tool for learning a language and I suggest giving it a try. However, I would not recommend learning French if you are living in the US. Spanish is the most important foreign language to learn at this time.
    In Canada, however, definitely go with learning French if you are a native English speaker. The first time that you go from Kamloops to Chicoutimi you'll see instantly how smart that it was to take a little time fooling around with audio and subtitles on your DVD player. Even if all your friends do tell you that there isn't any real reason to learn any French because you'll never ever use it. You will.

    French movies used to the coolest films on the planet for a short period in the early 1960s and a major contender at all other times. The French invented cinema even if Edison invented motion pictures. But lately French movies have become either really stupid or really stupid and boring. For that reason very few of them actually make it to the US as DVD releases. Or they get filmed in English and dubbed into French. Usually these dub translations have the audio/title mismatch problem. A really great movie to start with is "La Femme Nikita" from early 1990s. Unfortunately, few of the Nouvelle Vague films from the 1960s have both French and English subtitles. And many have not aged well: becoming boring and incomprehensible over the decades. The two best French New Wave films still worth watching are "Jules And Jim" and "La Jetee", both from 1962.

  48. French gov't puts desires of citizens first by Cryofan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Must be great to have a government that is not in the pockets of the corporations.....

    --
    eat shiat and bark at the moon
  49. CITIZENS determine what "rights" MEAN by Cryofan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You wrote:
    A company has--or should have--the right to sell its wares under any terms it wishes.


    Not if the people (acting through their govt) decide otherwise. Corporations have EXACTLY whatever rights WE CITIZENS decide to give them. THEIR rights are determined by US. If the French govt contrains corporate rights, then it is because the fRench PEOPLE want it that way.

    You see, teh American propaganda has warped your perspective. A country is supposed to be "by the people and FOR the people' not by and for the corporations.

    See how that works?

    So how do we get America headed in that direction? How about trying our politicians for treason?

    --
    eat shiat and bark at the moon
  50. Freedom by UlfGabe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Freedom Fried indeed, Looks like france is much more in tune with the times than the USA

    --
    Check journal for info on Anti-TextBook, an idea by me.
  51. well you know by Phil+Urich · · Score: 5, Informative

    it's easier to resist when you'll, oh, get shot for resisting. Really, France surrendering to Germany is something that we criticize them far too much for. If Germany had, say, bordered the States . . . remember that at the time the U.S. didn't even really have a military force to speak of, compared especially to the German Reich's forces. Nearly anyone could have been steamrolled.

    Furthermore, while we make a big deal of our sacrifices in WWI, we did it from the safety of distance; soldiers went over, but the threat to North America was never there. Meanwhile, the horror of war was literally in the backyards at best of the countries in Europe. The French especially had a rough time of it, and just in general Europe was pretty much experiencing post-traumatic stress syndrome.

    The German forces just overwhelmed them; the military might was just too much to bear (and, it would be quite some time before American production and conscription raised enough military force to be able to help even if it had been the popular opinion). No, France, though admittedly acting with much defeatism, was outmatched, outgunned, and outmaneuvered. The strategic reserve, which had saved France in the First World War, was nonexistent. General de Gaulle managed to forestall the fate of Paris for quite some time, but eventually the crushing weight of German reinforcements.

    And if we're going to berate France, then berate Britain at the same time; great friends that they are, they hastily pulled their forces out of the continent as France was being overrun (of course, this was strategically the only sane option at the time, but since when did logic and historical accuracy have anything to do with these kinds of accusations?).

    The bottom line is that the causes aren't so straightforward as to just be "oh, those French pansies". It seems to me almost as if the current trend of "belittle the French" might stem more from modern annoyance in the States with France's political opposition to current administrative doctrine than any historical accuracy or fairness. This whole meme is quite suspect.

    --
    I remember sigs. Oh, a simpler time!
  52. France, Home of the Free! by oogoody · · Score: 2, Funny

    US, the home the nanny government.

  53. Legitimate rule and a test of DRM arguments by G4from128k · · Score: 4, Interesting

    You guys here on /. make it sound like we have nothing else to do of our time than to think about the mighty US of America, how to annoy it, how to counter it. Believe it or not, it happens sometimes that we have ideas, rules, laws of our own, that are not just there to be "against" the US.

    If I offended you, then I apologize.

    What I said was not meant to imply that the French spend all their time cooking up schemes to annoy the U.S. As you say, the French have their own laws for their own reasons. I saw the court ruling as a legitimate way to change the economics of imported American movies with an eye toward preserving French culture.

    And by the way, even though you almost never see them in the US, there is actually a lot of movies produced in France.

    Absolutely! The local university has an excellent International Film Series where I have seen some very enjoyable French movies.

    If this ruling stands, it might be a very interesting test of the validity of arguments about DRM. If DRM really is essential to the economics of the motion picture industry, then the ruling will hurt French film industry especially. If DRM is a barrier to film consumption, then the absence of DRM on French DVD should mean prosperity for French film makers.

    --
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
  54. They see themselves in the funhouse mirror by ianscot · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Yes, I know it sounds stupid, but you guys here on /. make it sound like we have nothing else to do of our time than to think about the mighty US of America, how to annoy it, how to counter it.

    The overwhelming preponderance of /. readers' responses to this story seems to have been a thoughtless regurgitation of all things anti-French. I sort of feel like pointing out that, based on those posts, at least on this side of the Atlantic precisely the sort of idiotic self-centeredness you're describing holds true. The French don't think that way, no, but apparently slashdot does.

    This isn't about France -- it's about the suppression of dissenting views. The entirety of the anti-French idiocy over here amounts to one big "ad hominem" attack; nobody really had an answer to Villepain's Security Council arguments, so we demonized the speaker rather than countering the speech.

    (Cue jokes about how the French won the American Revolution by pitching in with their navy at the opportune moment... Oh, never mind, we're supposed to forget that one. Surrender monkeys and all that. Yeah. That stuff. Belgian fries. Etcetera.)

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    "Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
  55. The reason the French hate the US.. by TiggertheMad · · Score: 4, Funny

    The reason the French and Americans don't get along is quite simple: We hate the French for thinking that they are more arrogant than we are. So there!

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    HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
  56. Re:I blame Europe in general by Qrlx · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We have learned that like it or not we will be dragged into the world problems. We were reminded again in 2001 when a couple buildings fell, even though Bush was up to that time persuing a more isolationist policy. The US cannot be an isolationist.

    We haven't been isolationist since WWII. We have troops in over 100 countries and have had them there for decades.

    There's not much we can do about the world problems we get dragged into. The problem is all the world problems we create ourselves.

    For example, 50 years before 9/11 the CIA overthrew the democratically elected President of Iran and installed that secular puppet dictator the Shah. 25 years ago he in turn was overthrown by an anti-American religious fanatic Ayatollah. That in turn gave Osama bin Laden his "base" to pull off 9/11.

    Connect the dots.

    http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB126/

  57. Maginot Line? by Xebikr · · Score: 3, Funny

    The term "Maginot Line" has been used as a metaphor for something that is confidently relied upon despite being ineffectual.

    Wow! That sounds remarkably like DRM!