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OpenOffice 2.0 Criticized on Use of Java
karvind writes "Yahoo is running a story on how OpenOffice 2.0 Faces Opposition over Its Use of Java. According the article: "The problem, according to some free software voices, is that OO.o relies too much on Sun Microsystems Inc.'s proprietary Java programming language in an open-source project. In particular, free software advocates are objecting to the use of Sun specific Java code for such OO.o 2.0 features as the new, Microsoft Access-like database management program, Base and Writer's (OO.o's word processor) document wizards." Linus Torvalds also moved to an open-source solution for software configuration management system."
It's here, it's (basically) free. Why not use it?
Also, who is Linus Trolvalds?
Hey ASSHOLES, the current Java source code can be downloaded here, and the latest development version can be downloaded here. And if that's not enough for you, your precious Kaffe, gcj, GNU Classpath, and other "Open Source" projects are working on reimplementing the JVM. I don't particularly care if you like Java or not, but I've had enough of this bullshit about Java being open or not. It's a God damn language/platform with thousands of successful Open Source projects under it, and has been opened up six ways to sunday. Comparing the issue to Linus's predicament is disingenuous at best, is not outright dishonest!
Not to mention that OpenOffice is Sun's baby. They PAID MONEY FOR IT. (I know that's a foreign concept here, since the entire fraking world is supposed to be FREE for the fraking taking.) If you don't like the direction OpenOffice has taken, then go play with KOffice. Oh wait, you alreay pissed them off too. Is there anyone you people won't make an enemy of in your Quixotic quests of stupidity?
Apologies for the abrasiveness of this post, but crap like this deserves it. You've been given a gift and all you can do is look it in the mouth.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
As I pointed out to the editors (OK, laugh at that), this has been covered before. Though, I don't understand the need to throw in Linus's name. Maybe that's to rile up the crowd? :-)
Its a programming language... As long as the code is open source, then why not use it?
At a future point in time, there could very well be complete open source java implementations. But even if there aren't, the code is still open source.
You can mod your friends, you can mod your nose, but you can't mod your friend's nose.
Let's try and keep this discussion focused on Sun, Java, and OO.org, but not the Bitkeeper flamewar, mmmkay?
If someone could explain how this relates to OO.o's use of Java, I'd appreciate it :P Otherwise I'll just assume the submitter is trying to be a little more sensational about things.
Java works, and works well. However, I can see the point about OpenOffice being totally *free.* However, Since OpenOffice is essentially StarOffice, which, if I am not mistaken, comes from SUN, why not use it?
I'm not a troll, but I play one on Slashdot.
The objections seem to be emanating from rms.
While some OO.o supporters claim that the opposition is primarily the result of misinformed free-software zealots, Microsoft, or astroturfing (the use of paid shills to create the impression of a popular movement) by OO.o opponents, there does seem to be some concrete opposition to OO.o by the free software community.
The most visible evidence of that is that the FSF (Free Software Foundation) is "is looking for volunteers to maintain a version of OpenOffice that doesn't require a non-free Java platform."
Volunteers to lead this project are requested to contact the FSF's founder, Richard M. Stallman
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
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I admittedly don't know much about OpenOffice, but it seems to me that the Java source code would at least be open, right? As long as the source code is still available (whether it's written in Java or Pascal), what's the big deal? If you don't like Java just because the implementation is proprietary, you could always find the offensive Java code and port it to something you like more. Am I way off here?
http://nerdfortress.com/
...but that abysmal load time makes me willing to pay $130 for MS office. OO loads up like...well...a big fat Java app.
Stupid, stupid, stupid...Free Software people will keep grumbling as long as we aren't building everything from a completely "Free as in Free-as-long-as-you-play-by-OUR-rules" standpoint. And what the hell is that about Linus, he rolled his own solution because he needed to do more than any of the available FOSS solutions could, but what bearing that has on OOo is beyond me....
This is nonsense, there are some reasons, most highly contentious, not to rely heavily on Java but this argument isn't one of them...
Idiots!
Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still plant my apple tree. -Martin Luther
Sun buys StarOffice, and spins up a free version of it for the "community." They decide to use some of their own technology (Java) in this program. So what?
Sun controls OpenOffice/StarOffice, and Sun controls Java. Both have been opened more than your typical commercial holding. What's the problem?
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well, assuming that Java _does_ run everywhere, which of course, we know it doesn't. Or doesn't run _well_... like on HP-UX.
But anyway...
What better language should they pick? VB? csh? Perl? Python? Mono? Java has relatively point-n-click installers for many popular OSes, has a remarkable amount of functionality, and will smooth their development wrinkles because of its universality. Remember, this is a desktop app, it needs to largely 'just work' from an installation perspective, you don't want Joe Windows User going to ActiveState and getting some Perl package, or needing some cygwin-esque environment to run Python or something else.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
Whether OO.o is built using a Free language or just a free language is not important to me. The source code of the suite (in the [Ff]ree language) is available.
Having the source is all I really care about. Would it be better if Sun GPLd Java? Maybe. Would it be better if OO.o were developed using only Free tools? Maybe.
Would any of that change my ability, in the real world, to use Open Office instead of MS Office? Probably not.
Raise your children as if you were teaching them to raise your grandchildren, because you are.
--- You are in a little twisty maze of comments, all different.
All I know is that OO keeps getting better and faster, that it isn't costly like MS office, doesn't have a closed file format like MS office and that it has cross-platform versions. Sounds like the right stuff to me.
Python which is slow, has a much smaller user base and far less consistent and well-documented standard library?
Perl whose readability for many coders is next to nothing?
C++ because we all know that more buffer overflows and random craziness is what OpenOffice needs to compete with Microsoft Office?
C# since 93-95% of the desktop users out there use Windows, why bother with the minority of others? (I actually quite like C# and am hopeful about Mono)
Ruby because a language that most coders have never even seen before is clearly the best way for a fresh start?
Objective-C because when Steve Jobs takes over the world, we'll need to be on his good side?
C, since objects really are overrated for anything that normal developers might want to maintain?
So seriously, of all of the major language choices, which would be better?
Click here or a puppy gets stomped!
Believe it or not, but OO2 relying so heavily on Java is a problem, as Java is not free software.
Now all the name calling that is currently going on here will not change this simple fact and all this "I don't give a f*** as long as it works" won't change the fact that java not being free software poses a problem.
Look for example at Debian, or Fedora, or Ubuntu, they all ship without Java because of licensing problems. Having one of the most important apps for desktop linux rely heavily on Java sure poses a problem for these distributions and their users.
That said, I get the feeling that something good will eventually come off this situation, as said distributions (and especiall RedHat) are now working even harder on providing a true free Java environment and make OO2 run with it.
As someone who prefers free software and someone who runs linux on non-x86 (ppc, therefor no current Java + firefox plugin available) I can only welcome this development.
Maybe they think that OOo 2.0 will get released too soon and would prefer to wait a few years for the developers to port, and test the code.
There's HypersonicSQL, that would have to be removed from its dev team, forked, and ported to a non java language. Then all of the code that uses it. I'm sure there's lots of other stuff.
So, we could add a year or more to the release and get the exact same features with the same performance, the same license (OOo license), and more bugs.
Yes, we could wait and get nothing except binaries that were made from source that was written in a language that has a different license.
Or maybe the crybabies, who think this is such a big deal, could take the open source java source code and port it too some other language (C#?) of their choosing and thank the original developers for devoting their time. I notice that Richard Stallman is calling for volunteers instead of just doing it. Typical.
Bill Gates has got to love this. The open source community builds a product to compete against his products. Then instead of unifying to make the project better, they split up to make a competing copy of the competing product. And this is over a language that there are open source tools to deal with.
Or, we could all give a word of thanks to the developers who dedicated so much time so that we all may benefit. Even MSOffice users will benefit as MS improves their product and lowers their prices to cope with new competition.
----- If communism is a system where the government owns business, what do you call a system where business owns govern
Since all responses so far have been very reasonable ("if you think it is a problem, do your own version then and don't bash Sun"), I predict the trolls will try to change the discussion to "I hate Java and it sucks compared to my favourite language X", or "Java vs Mono", with inflammatory posts.
Don't take the bait.
Being bitter is drinking poison and hoping someone else will die
-- from the article --
Still others have suggested that instead of using an open-source Java, these components be rewritten in an entirely different language such as Ruby or Python.
However, some programmers have just gone ahead and found fixes for OO.o, which enables it to run with GCJ.
Caolán McNamara, a programmer with Red Hat who specializes in word processing, has created one such set of fixes.
A source at Sun said, "OO.o 2 works OK with GCJ" and that "Red Hat has been tremendously helpful in the effort to make that so, filing bug reports etc."
In addition, while OO.o will run without a JVM (Java Virtual Machine), it will use one if it's available, and its performance has been found to be much better if Sun's 5.0 JVM is used.
But, as Scott Carr, OO.o's quality assurance project co-lead pointed out, "OO.o will run perfectly well without any JVM, but if there is a JVM then it has to do checks to make sure what features are supported in the JVM as well as run various functions. These are only run in the presence of a JVM."
-- end FTA --
So... if there is a JVM, [something] runs better/faster than if there wasn't. For starters, the app works without Java. Secondly, it's been fixed to compile with an open-source Java compiler. Thirdly, what kind of code runs this way? The article didn't specify.
How odd.
Regardless, this is still a big deal about nothing, as per usual.
-Rob
Marriage doesn't have to suck!
Hé des ABRUTIS, le code source courant de Java peuvent être téléchargés ici [ sun.com ], et la dernière version de développement peut être téléchargée ici [ java.net ]. Et si ce n'est pas assez pour vous, votre Kaffe précieux [ kaffe.org ], gcj [ gnu.org ], GNU Classpath [ gnu.org ], et d'autres projets "de source ouverte" travaillent à reimplementing le JVM. Je ne m'inquiète pas en particulier si vous aimez Java ou pas, mais j'ai eu assez de cette connerie au sujet de Java étant ouvert ou pas. C'est un rien language/platform de Dieu avec des milliers de projets ouverts réussis de source sous lui, et a été ouvert six manières au dimanche. Comparer l'issue à la situation fâcheuse de Linus est insincère au mieux, n'est pas malhonnête pure! Pour ne pas mentionner qu'OpenOffice est le bébé du soleil. Ils ONT PAYÉ L'CArgent LUI. (je sais qui est un concept étranger ici, puisque le monde fraking entier est censé être LIBRE pour la prise fraking.) Si vous n'aimez pas la direction OpenOffice a pris, alors va jeu avec KOffice. Attente d'Oh, vous alreay pissé leur au loin aussi. Y a-t-il n'importe qui que vous peuplez ne ferez pas un ennemi de à vos recherches de Quixotic de stupidité? Les excuses pour l'abrasif de ce poteau, mais le crap comme ceci le méritent. Vous avez été donnés un cadeau et tout que vous pouvez faire doit le regarder dans la bouche.
Not Java. Fork Open Office. Write the whole thing in Lisp if you wish. If yours is the better deal, the world will beat a path to your door.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
>If someone could explain how this relates to OO.o's use of Java, I'd appreciate it.
2 .0-development/ch19lev1sec2.html
s p
As I say in the story--in a one sentence remark--it's because in both cases, some people are objecting to the use of proprietary software in an open source project.
It's not like this is a new battle between free software advocates and open-source supporters. The one most people probably know best is the use of TrollTech's QT in KDE. For more on that, see:
http://developer.kde.org/documentation/books/kde-
For the original version of the OO.o story see:
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1813986,00.a
Steven
I dunno about you, but ease of use and functionality is what matters to me.
OpenOffice just works.
I use it for my busiess, at home and for my campaign staff.
I'm not even sure how your points are relevant to the use of StarOffice and the purpose sun is trying to fill with this application.
my issue with java is not so much java/opensource/gpl..., but rather speed/memory/footprint.
Open office is already huge and somewhat slow. Java will only make this worse.
I remember when Mozilla was feature rich (kitchen sink), slow and huge. I stuck with old Netscape4 until Phoenix/Firebird/Firefox came fixed the Mozilla problems.
After OO2 is released, probably someone will fork it, replacing all the java, and call it FireOffice, then OpenOffice will adopt the changes.
2. RTFA, the major problem is that they're using undocumented sun-only features, almost as if they're deliberately breaking it on Kaffe etc.
Since everyone has access to the OO sources, nothing can stop Kaffe, Apache J2SE, GNU Classpath or any other project to implement these "proprietary" features, as they are called from the source code.
It is most unlikely that sun would actually take legal action for the "unauthorised" use of these non-standard API extensions required for OO support, since they would then really be making dicks of themselves.
"Oooh, does that mean we get to kick some puffy white mad zionist butt?"
So, if I'm running RedHat, which started building its own JVM, OOo won't run properly.
OOo cannot remain dependent on Sun Java: Sun Java just runs on too few systems and configurations. Either OOo gets hacked to remove dependencies on Java altogether, or it needs to be packages with a small, open source Java implementation that works well enough to let OOo function.
Of course, none of this is particularly surprising: Sun is trying to introduce dependencies on their proprietary software in many pieces of software. It's an evil master plan, and it won't work, but that won't stop Schwartz and McNealy from trying until their company is bankrupt.
I don't see anywhere in the article that indicates they're using undocumented internal com.sun.* classes. The problem seems to be that some key functionality in OpenOffice is implemented with Java, and that Java itself is not free. Also, it adds a requirement that any platform that runs OpenOffice must have a compatible implementation on Java.
That also means that, if OpenOffice is coded to the Java spec (which it should be), then they shouldn't feel responsible for making the code run with Kaffe, GCJ, Harmony, or any other non-spec Java environment.
On the other hand, if they coded it to spec, then OO shouldn't preclude the use of a different Java environment. If Kaffe, etc. were up to spec, it wouldn't be an issue. (I have no problems with these implementation, they all admit to various places where they don't fully implement the Java spec).
This is a purely political/religious/philosphical issue, not a technical one. The objection to Java is because Java itself isn't free, not that OpenOffice is tied to a particular implementation of Java.
It seems that people are getting upset at looking at the imports in the code without realizing that THEY ARE NEVER USED!!! Again, I refer you to the blog entry, but for those of you too lazy:
This gcj request asks for the addition of java.awt.Frame.createBufferStrategy which is all that is missing from gcj to build the java canvas stuff. (Though the canvas module contains a pile of spurious imports of sun.awt which are unnecessary and can be removed, not that there's much point right now, if a createBufferStrategy becomes available then removing the sun.awt from the canvas/java .javas is all that's outstanding)
Nothing to see here, just move along. More jumping the gun rather than investigating things to completion.
Who is John Galt?
It's like saying:
"The US invaded Iraq today. In other news, Tom Cruise was seen using a porta-potty."
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
GCJ can already compile and run Eclipse, which is one of the most complex Java apps out there. I doubt compiling OPenOffice 2.0's Java code into .so format would be a huge hurdle.
If you think that the Java license is not a problem, try running Java apps on a non-Intel Linux platform such as linux/ppc. Sun does not make a JRE for linux/ppc so the choices come down to IBM Java (which is also non-free, crashes frequently and does not support the 1.5 spec), Blackdown (which is non-free and seems to be stalled at 1.3), and the free JREs such as Jikes which will always be behind the curve as RMS points out.
These problems are not incidental. They're a necessary consequence of the non-free license. Fewer developers are allowed to work with the code. This lack of resources directly translates to less portability. It also lengthens the bug fix cycle, slows the adoption of new features, and places supreme power in the hands of the copyright holder. If you require big changes to a free software product, you have the power to make those changes or hire someone else to make them for you. If you require big changes to a non-free product, you're at the mercy of the copyright holder.
In the case of Java, the source is not as open as Sun would like you to believe. Parts of it are open. Other parts are locked away in binary files. You need an existing Sun bytecode compiler (on a platform supported by Sun) to build Java from source. This necessarily precludes porting it to other platforms without assistance from Sun. This is why the folks at blackdown needed to sign special agreements with Sun before they were granted access.
I love Java. It's quickly becoming my favorite programming language, but I also have to agree with RMS that the license is problematic. Great language. Dangerous platform.
If you don't like OO, don't use it. As many have pointed out here, Sun basically bought it, and then gave it away for free. Apparently, that's not good enough for the revolutionary crowd here. It's a wonder any of these companies will work with us at all. With friends like these...
I got into Linux because I wanted Unix at home. Not to rape and pillage the unbelievers. If we're getting to a point where I have to live by the Purer Faith, so to speak, just to use software, I'll head to BSD land. Because while I think the open source method is very, very cool, and will revolutionize software (in truth, it already has), I'm getting tired of the militants lecturing me about what I choose to put on my computer. I didn't sign up for that.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
Why does slashdot insist on posting such obvious trolls? This whole article and slashdot story should be modded -99 TROLL! The submitter obviously was hoping to start a flame war with the OSS free-software *coughstallmancough* zealots and the people who know better currently have the highest modded posts on this forum. There is no Java trap. As long as Java's source lays out in the open people will implement their own JVMs and compilers and the world will move on. If Sun goes down the drain then well, I guess by gosh those OSS zealots that are whining need to get their act together to implement all of those open sourced "hidden features."
.Net has a long ways to catch up. Can't we find better things to argue over? That Java is even open sourced says multitudes about the effect of Free Software.
With the world all going to hell, you'd think that people could find better things to argue about. Java is obviously a well used toolbox in the open source and to say that it will have negative consequences is truly sad. Why do people use Java even though people bitch and moan about how slow and slow it is and how it lacks certain primitives (and it does), it is because it just works on nearly any operating system. When you only want to devote the time to develop for one platform, but at the same time allow just about anyone with a computer to run your code, what are you going to use?
Azureus, Slimserver's MP3 player, a bunch of emulators, and a whole slew of other projects that can be found on Sourceforge, amongst other places, were all built on Java.
Who knows, Java may live up to its promises as a platform for embedded devices one day. Given how many Universities teach Java right from the start and how many teachers are right now telling people that Java is likely to be the next big language, I wouldn't exactly say that Java is going anywhere anytime soon. Microsoft is now wishing they had come up with a similar idea and
Next troll/story please!
zosxavius photography
There are free bios's (linuxbios for instance) that can boot linux, linux can also boot on systems with other firmware such as sun openfirmware or digital srm..
On the other hand, linux requires HARDWARE to run on, which is also non-free.
The bios is FIRMWARE.. perhaps it has some justification for being non-free seeing as it's integrated into the hardware which will always be non-free. The hardware business is not a scam like the software business, there is ALWAYS a cost for producing hardware, raw materials etc, and hardware usually becomes cheaper once the initial development costs are covered, unlike software.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
What cygwin-esque environment is needed to run python apps? Links and resources, please...
Normally, I just install python's win32 installer, and run my apps. If I need some third-party extension, I just install it, and go. No need for any cygwin-esque environment.
-gus
Which is precisely what the Free Software Foundation is doing. The FSF people are hoping that the folks at Sun will want to prevent a fork bad enough that they will work at little harder at making OO.org work with gcj. If Sun doesn't play ball then the FSF will fork OO.org and their gcj version will undoubtedly become the version that gets shipped with at least the Debian and Red Hat (and Fedora) distributions (and very probably others as well). And don't think these organizations are bluffing either. Gnome got its start in almost exactly the same way. The FSF, Red Hat, and Debian didn't like the licensing for KDE and so they did something about it.
The real question is whether or not Sun wants a large chunk of its current OO.org's user base to use someone else's fork of OO.org because that's what is currently shaping up to happen. If Sun's execs think that these organizations (especially the FSF) are likely to be "reasonable" about the use of non-free software then they are clearly delusional. Sun has been dealing with GNU software and the FSF forever, and they have never seen them back down once.
The worst part is that Sun really needs the Free Software faction of the Open Source community. After all, it really does take a zealot to propose replacing MS Office with some other piece of software. The pragmatists in the crowd are more than happy to wait and see if MS Office can really be replaced. The people that are currently considering replacing MS Office with OO.org are doing so because they believe in Free Software. Without enough zealots to take that first step OO.org is never going to have serious market penetration.
As long as whoever is complaining takes the necessary steps to provide a different solution I guess they have a right to speak up their minds. Of course they should understand that the Open Office developers are still FREE to do as they wish.
diegoT
Framing java as "not open sourced" misses some significant shades of gray in the software development community. The useful tools for java development have been constructed by a community, and are available for download from sourceforge, apache, sun and other 'vendors'/bazaars.
The useful tools for competing languages are highly proprietary, and the availability of mature, useful communities and code for extending those languages is far more limited than with java.
Criticizing OpenOffice for being built with Java, which isn't "open", is kind of silly, in this broader context. It amounts to cutting off our nose to spite our face.
objectWizard42
OO.o helped out getting rid of non-portable java constructs in their code.
Red Hat hackers and other fixed some gcj and classpath bugs revealed by OO.o.
Now it all works.
What you and many others fail to understand is that Java the trademark might be owned by Sun, but Java the language LONG AGO went into the hands of the community - namly the Java Community Process. Java is really controlled by a LOT of companies now including IBM. Do you think IBM is really going to care if Sun withdraws into a shell? They would move forward with Java regardless, and they have a whole VM to back up such an action.
Java already has a community. It's up to Sun to try and mesh the two communities but if you just pretend Java = Sun then you will never understand the results of anything that happens, as the reality is far more complex.
Personally I'd like to see the focus be on catching up GCJ with the standards, and having a first-class Open Source Free VM. Then this whole debate is moot.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Can someone please explain how these two situations are different?
Before there was a demi-god called Stallman, there was the BIOS. Even Stallman had to bow down to a higher authority.
After the BIOS, came a demi-god called Sun, who spoke in the language called Java. But Stallman was jealous of all the attention that Sun got for making Java.
Since Stallman was the creator of GNU/Linux, and didn't drink deeply of Java, he's been pissing on Sun's parade ever since then.
If GCJ could be improved to the point that it supports the newer Java specs well, and OO can use it as a base - then this whole issue goes away.
So you can try to convince a company to change policy, a group of developers to take a whole different approach to the project that would delay things by a year, or simply FIX THE PROBLEM. It used to be that people actually wanted to fix problems instead of bitching for the sake of it.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Just pointing this out. Sun OO.org have been quite helpful on this accepting patches to make sure this can be done.
Article is not well researched, and sounds like scaremongering.
The JVM is a specification that may be implemented on different platforms as people are so inclined.
"Opening Java" will do nothing to address the problem of missing JVMs directly because the fundamental issue is one of demand. If you really need a JVM for your favorite toy OS, then start a project to build one.
So anyone who does not go 100% his way has to be undermined, even if thier motives are not hostile. So sun decides that being nicer with thier code will be profitable in the long run. What do they get? The RMS torch and pitchfork gang telling them what functions they can use or else!
Ok, so the idea that people should be free to deal with software in the manner in which they choose is a cool idea. What about the idea that someone should be free to deal with the product of thier labor (be it, widgets or prose or code) in the way that they choose? In the RMS "all or nothing model" the two are incompatible, anything I create belongs to the world and not to me. My mind must be the source of free labor, to keep any ideas to myself would violate what RMS claims as his rights.Who gets to decide how I distribute what I work to create, me or Stallman? The two claimed "rights" are in conflict.
It seems a lot of progress has been made in getting commericial interests to consider and sometimes even participate in open source. But it doesn't help when supposed leaders of the community insist on ralling behind a worldview that is incompatible with commercial software existing at all.Free Mac Mini Yeah, it's
Indeed, the problem is big. Some BSDs don't have java, linux ppc users either. Right now Java's "portability" is a joke with Sun's VM, even if it was free as in speech.
That's why GNU classpath & GCJ is important. It will provide us with a free (as in speech & beer) java VM for those who doesn't want to use Sun's VM (linux users, basically). Redhat is putting lots programmers & money behind of GCJ and collaborating with tons of community-based projects - they really want a free java. In fact, Redhat has some people hacking on GCJ to support openoffice's java features.
Actually, GCJ 4 is one of the GCC 4.0 greatest features, here is an article about why it's so great. They've achieved almost all Java 1.4 important features and there's work ongoing to support 1.5.
And GCJ does support, in fact, MORE architectures and operative systems than Sun's propietary offerings - yes, more. It's what will make java truly palataform-independent. GCJ is part of GCC, so it supports the platforms that gcc supports - much more than Sun's VM or other propietary VMs
GCJ can compile java code for the platforms supported by GCC - way more than Sun's offerings or other propietary VMs.
Red Hat is paying people to support OOo 2.0 with GCJ. And GCJ 4.0 is already quite good...
As it's been already stated in those comments, gcj can run openoffice almost completely. Now, the Apache foundation started a free (as in speech) implementation of j2se 1.5, so sooner or later, I'm sure the integration of JAVA won't be a problem anymore, and people will stop whining Java is not free (I'm one of those whiners, becoming more and more confident).
See: The Java Trap, by Richard Stallman
Sun's implementation of Java is non-free. Blackdown is also non-free; it is an adaptation of Sun's proprietary code. The standard Java libraries are non-free also. We do have free implementations of Java, such as the GNU Java Compiler and GNU Classpath, but they don't support all the features yet. We are still catching up.
So the "free" version of Java is incomplete.
The reliable way to avoid the Java Trap is to have only a free implementation of Java on your system. Then if you use a Java feature or library that free software does not yet support, you will find out straightaway, and you can rewrite that code immediately.
And he wants developers to write Java targetting this crippled "free" version instead of the official Sun compiler.
Here's an idea FIX THE DAMN "FREE" COMPILER. There's nothing wrong with the Java code people are writing - it's the incomplete "free" compiler that's the problem.
I am the maverick of Slashdot
What's scary is that you are freakin' serious. First off, there's nothing similar to Java that runs faster at raw performance numbers (method calls/second, numerical speed, GC). Python is much slower in that respect. Even the leading Smalltalk implementations are 1/4 the performance of Java at object-oriented benchmarks like method call overhead. Smalltalks are similar to Python in being dynamic object-oriented languages, but have had a LOT more optimization work done. Microsoft does everything they can to prevent non-funded C# benchmarks from being released, but even their C# is significantly slower performance-wise in running "managed code" (mono is a non-contender).
You're right that Python can be faster, mostly at scripting, because of using native code in more direct ways, but for something like OO.o where there is a LOT of code and quite a bit of math (laying out all that data, updating spreadsheets) realistically a pure-python implementation would probably be around 1/20th the speed of a Java one. FYI, Python runs significantly faster than Jython/JPython because the Java virtual machine is not designed for dynamic ("message passing") form of OO... but running the quivalent code in Java and Python, and Java will be the clear winner.
And oh yeah you think Mono is faster because the Language shootout says so? Or Java is slow? Take for example the word-counting benchmark for C, C#, and Java. Notice that the Java version uses the system locale's definition of whitespace where as the C# version hard-codes checks against space, \n, and \t? Or that the C version uses freaking table of sums to avoid branching? Under the hood Java is doing three method calls, an &, and a compare is almost as fast as Mono doing just 3 simple integer comparisons. Not that the language shootout is even fair... for instance it should compare throughput by increasing the number of iterations until it takes more than a certain time (so if C is 5x faster on a benchmark it does 5x more iterations). When even this minor scripting is too difficult to do it doesn't inspire much confidence in the results. Without this change they have lots of granularity errors and measuring of startup time on the fast end.
So yeah mod me down because this is a rant... but I'm just tired of the ignorant repeating over and over that Java is slow, when it's really the fastest of its kind.
The example I like of how Sun does not really control Java anymore is generics. If Sun could do what it liked we would have had generics in 1.4, but there was wrangling and so it was delayed.
Does Sun get members on all the major comittes? Yes. They have a certain degree of guranteed participation. But that does not equal control, as one member cannot overrule a whole panel.
Basically there are a lot of big, powerful players around Java now and all of them have a say. Java hs the most "real" standards body I've seen because I as an individual can see a lot more of what is going on and even have some influence if I care deeply about a JSR.
For better or for worse Java really is steered by a lot of people now, whcih means it's not as nimble but also means better stability for the platform.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The Pentiums OO.o runs on is also patented, and obscured by trade secrets - not to mention circuitry too tiny to examine without sophisticated equipment. Until Pentium microcode is OSS, we must not use it.
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make install -not war
No, you're the one who needs to get a grip.
Free Software isn't about taking down Microsoft and other big corporations. I don't use FreeBSD because I want to "stick it to the man." Free software is about being able to use software unencumbered by licensing restrictions. And what do you mean that nerds have no vision? Richard Stallman, Linus Torvalds, the BSD developers, and hundreds of other nerds have the vision of creating completely free software for everyone. Yes, we still have some things to work on (like that Swedish thesaurus and spell checker that you mentioned), but it's getting there.
Nobody in the "real world" (boy I hate that phrase; I'll change it to "non-geek world") cares about Debian and Fedora shipping Java because the non-geek world uses Mac OS X and Windows. The last thing on the average Mac user's or Windows user's mind is the licensing of Java; it either comes with their computer or it is a quick download away. But Linux and BSD users are in a different realm, the "surreal world" as you probably call it, and they aren't generally going to put up with the licensing. Besides, Sun Java isn't available for many platforms. What if I'm using NetBSD on an Alpha machine? Too bad, I can't use Sun Java even if I wanted to.
The point is, free software isn't about "sticking it to the man." It is about using unencumbered software. If you have a problem with this, you can always return to your Mac or Windows box, along with your Java. Nobody's stopping you from using that, and nobody's stopping geeks like myself from forking OpenOffice.
The source of a language isn't the compiler's code, it's the language specification.
If a language's structure is openly defined, then anyone can build a compiler for it. That *IS* the definition of an open-source compiler!
If OO.o doesn't work well with GCJ because the compiler fails to fully (and efficiently) implement the language standard, the it's the fault of the compiler, not the language.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban