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OpenOffice 2.0 Criticized on Use of Java
karvind writes "Yahoo is running a story on how OpenOffice 2.0 Faces Opposition over Its Use of Java. According the article: "The problem, according to some free software voices, is that OO.o relies too much on Sun Microsystems Inc.'s proprietary Java programming language in an open-source project. In particular, free software advocates are objecting to the use of Sun specific Java code for such OO.o 2.0 features as the new, Microsoft Access-like database management program, Base and Writer's (OO.o's word processor) document wizards." Linus Torvalds also moved to an open-source solution for software configuration management system."
It's here, it's (basically) free. Why not use it?
Also, who is Linus Trolvalds?
Hey ASSHOLES, the current Java source code can be downloaded here, and the latest development version can be downloaded here. And if that's not enough for you, your precious Kaffe, gcj, GNU Classpath, and other "Open Source" projects are working on reimplementing the JVM. I don't particularly care if you like Java or not, but I've had enough of this bullshit about Java being open or not. It's a God damn language/platform with thousands of successful Open Source projects under it, and has been opened up six ways to sunday. Comparing the issue to Linus's predicament is disingenuous at best, is not outright dishonest!
Not to mention that OpenOffice is Sun's baby. They PAID MONEY FOR IT. (I know that's a foreign concept here, since the entire fraking world is supposed to be FREE for the fraking taking.) If you don't like the direction OpenOffice has taken, then go play with KOffice. Oh wait, you alreay pissed them off too. Is there anyone you people won't make an enemy of in your Quixotic quests of stupidity?
Apologies for the abrasiveness of this post, but crap like this deserves it. You've been given a gift and all you can do is look it in the mouth.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
As I pointed out to the editors (OK, laugh at that), this has been covered before. Though, I don't understand the need to throw in Linus's name. Maybe that's to rile up the crowd? :-)
Its a programming language... As long as the code is open source, then why not use it?
At a future point in time, there could very well be complete open source java implementations. But even if there aren't, the code is still open source.
You can mod your friends, you can mod your nose, but you can't mod your friend's nose.
Let's try and keep this discussion focused on Sun, Java, and OO.org, but not the Bitkeeper flamewar, mmmkay?
If someone could explain how this relates to OO.o's use of Java, I'd appreciate it :P Otherwise I'll just assume the submitter is trying to be a little more sensational about things.
Java works, and works well. However, I can see the point about OpenOffice being totally *free.* However, Since OpenOffice is essentially StarOffice, which, if I am not mistaken, comes from SUN, why not use it?
I'm not a troll, but I play one on Slashdot.
The objections seem to be emanating from rms.
While some OO.o supporters claim that the opposition is primarily the result of misinformed free-software zealots, Microsoft, or astroturfing (the use of paid shills to create the impression of a popular movement) by OO.o opponents, there does seem to be some concrete opposition to OO.o by the free software community.
The most visible evidence of that is that the FSF (Free Software Foundation) is "is looking for volunteers to maintain a version of OpenOffice that doesn't require a non-free Java platform."
Volunteers to lead this project are requested to contact the FSF's founder, Richard M. Stallman
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
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I admittedly don't know much about OpenOffice, but it seems to me that the Java source code would at least be open, right? As long as the source code is still available (whether it's written in Java or Pascal), what's the big deal? If you don't like Java just because the implementation is proprietary, you could always find the offensive Java code and port it to something you like more. Am I way off here?
http://nerdfortress.com/
...but that abysmal load time makes me willing to pay $130 for MS office. OO loads up like...well...a big fat Java app.
Stupid, stupid, stupid...Free Software people will keep grumbling as long as we aren't building everything from a completely "Free as in Free-as-long-as-you-play-by-OUR-rules" standpoint. And what the hell is that about Linus, he rolled his own solution because he needed to do more than any of the available FOSS solutions could, but what bearing that has on OOo is beyond me....
This is nonsense, there are some reasons, most highly contentious, not to rely heavily on Java but this argument isn't one of them...
Idiots!
Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still plant my apple tree. -Martin Luther
Sun buys StarOffice, and spins up a free version of it for the "community." They decide to use some of their own technology (Java) in this program. So what?
Sun controls OpenOffice/StarOffice, and Sun controls Java. Both have been opened more than your typical commercial holding. What's the problem?
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well, assuming that Java _does_ run everywhere, which of course, we know it doesn't. Or doesn't run _well_... like on HP-UX.
But anyway...
What better language should they pick? VB? csh? Perl? Python? Mono? Java has relatively point-n-click installers for many popular OSes, has a remarkable amount of functionality, and will smooth their development wrinkles because of its universality. Remember, this is a desktop app, it needs to largely 'just work' from an installation perspective, you don't want Joe Windows User going to ActiveState and getting some Perl package, or needing some cygwin-esque environment to run Python or something else.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
Does this mean I'd have to, like... TALK to him?
Nevermind then.
Linus Trovalds
;)
Is that Linus's evil twin? Does he code closed source for Microsoft?
Or, is he related to Linus Trollvalds....
(Watch, that nick will be a slashdot ID in less than an hour...)
Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
Whether OO.o is built using a Free language or just a free language is not important to me. The source code of the suite (in the [Ff]ree language) is available.
Having the source is all I really care about. Would it be better if Sun GPLd Java? Maybe. Would it be better if OO.o were developed using only Free tools? Maybe.
Would any of that change my ability, in the real world, to use Open Office instead of MS Office? Probably not.
Raise your children as if you were teaching them to raise your grandchildren, because you are.
Trovalds comment doesnt validate the argument in anyway. Im really uncertain why it was put in there. Stupid Journalists, thats why.
Open is open regardless of the code used to do it in my opinion.
"God of Rock, thank you for this chance to kick ass. "
Comment removed based on user account deletion
--- You are in a little twisty maze of comments, all different.
But that is just the point... They can't distribute java WITH the installer... so hence people do have to hunt around and find the tires. If they happen to already have a set (a prior JVM) it just better be new enough... or you start the hunt again.
If Sun would allow distribution of the JVM with OOo I think most of the complaints would disappear...
Telcos have alot of dark fibre in the States. Most people assume that's optical fibre...but it's actually moral fibre.
Maybe I'm missing the point, but the software runs fine, right? And the basic idea of the code probably comes through. Essentially the only issue I see here is that some people won't be able to compile the code. *shrug* That's always the risk, particularly if you get people coding with modified compilers and the like.
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
All I know is that OO keeps getting better and faster, that it isn't costly like MS office, doesn't have a closed file format like MS office and that it has cross-platform versions. Sounds like the right stuff to me.
Meanwhile, your English is piss-poor.
-Jesse
Nothing says "unprofessional job" like wrinkles in your duct tape.
Java is a free language just like Adobe's PDF product is.
The only non free issue surrounding Java is SUN's implementation...which is patented. Right?
That's why we have projects like Kaffe, ClassPath, GCJ and the newly announced Harmony from the Apache group.
If this is the case, then I do not see any problem. We have software like Flash that run on Linux and we've had no problems whatsoever.
Python which is slow, has a much smaller user base and far less consistent and well-documented standard library?
Perl whose readability for many coders is next to nothing?
C++ because we all know that more buffer overflows and random craziness is what OpenOffice needs to compete with Microsoft Office?
C# since 93-95% of the desktop users out there use Windows, why bother with the minority of others? (I actually quite like C# and am hopeful about Mono)
Ruby because a language that most coders have never even seen before is clearly the best way for a fresh start?
Objective-C because when Steve Jobs takes over the world, we'll need to be on his good side?
C, since objects really are overrated for anything that normal developers might want to maintain?
So seriously, of all of the major language choices, which would be better?
Click here or a puppy gets stomped!
Sun IS Openoffice.
All but 4 of the main openoffice developers are paid by them.
Maybe paying some programmers would help much more for the direction of openoffice than complaining...
HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
Or join KOffice. It works, it performs better, the codebase is smaller and arguably friendlier, it's (at least from the CVS version, and it will be in the next release) using the same open format, and it's been going longer than OOo. But it could always use more developers.
I am trolling
Believe it or not, but OO2 relying so heavily on Java is a problem, as Java is not free software.
Now all the name calling that is currently going on here will not change this simple fact and all this "I don't give a f*** as long as it works" won't change the fact that java not being free software poses a problem.
Look for example at Debian, or Fedora, or Ubuntu, they all ship without Java because of licensing problems. Having one of the most important apps for desktop linux rely heavily on Java sure poses a problem for these distributions and their users.
That said, I get the feeling that something good will eventually come off this situation, as said distributions (and especiall RedHat) are now working even harder on providing a true free Java environment and make OO2 run with it.
As someone who prefers free software and someone who runs linux on non-x86 (ppc, therefor no current Java + firefox plugin available) I can only welcome this development.
I personally am against the rising use of Java in OOo, but the 2.0 beta is just too good to argue with (you can still compile OOo without Java support anyway if it bugs you that much).
The real dispute here is, "Should OOo push for faster development or to be completely FOSS?'. Sun, who basically paid for the whole project, should have the right to steer it in the direction of their own language if they please to do so. However, to maintain the project as FOSS, no essential parts of it should be JDK-specific.
~You laugh because I'm different, I laugh because I'm insane~
Maybe they think that OOo 2.0 will get released too soon and would prefer to wait a few years for the developers to port, and test the code.
There's HypersonicSQL, that would have to be removed from its dev team, forked, and ported to a non java language. Then all of the code that uses it. I'm sure there's lots of other stuff.
So, we could add a year or more to the release and get the exact same features with the same performance, the same license (OOo license), and more bugs.
Yes, we could wait and get nothing except binaries that were made from source that was written in a language that has a different license.
Or maybe the crybabies, who think this is such a big deal, could take the open source java source code and port it too some other language (C#?) of their choosing and thank the original developers for devoting their time. I notice that Richard Stallman is calling for volunteers instead of just doing it. Typical.
Bill Gates has got to love this. The open source community builds a product to compete against his products. Then instead of unifying to make the project better, they split up to make a competing copy of the competing product. And this is over a language that there are open source tools to deal with.
Or, we could all give a word of thanks to the developers who dedicated so much time so that we all may benefit. Even MSOffice users will benefit as MS improves their product and lowers their prices to cope with new competition.
----- If communism is a system where the government owns business, what do you call a system where business owns govern
It might not be "free" but its free (as in beer) and its the only serious competitor to M$ Office. You do the math, free vs $$$....sure, you can write it in crayon as long as its performs and its free! ;)
Since all responses so far have been very reasonable ("if you think it is a problem, do your own version then and don't bash Sun"), I predict the trolls will try to change the discussion to "I hate Java and it sucks compared to my favourite language X", or "Java vs Mono", with inflammatory posts.
Don't take the bait.
Being bitter is drinking poison and hoping someone else will die
1. OO is slow, why would they want to COUNT on JAVA?
2. Explain why I am going to use this when the current release does not require Java?
If it makes it more portable, I say go for it. As long as there's a JVM available for my platform, I don't care...
-- from the article --
Still others have suggested that instead of using an open-source Java, these components be rewritten in an entirely different language such as Ruby or Python.
However, some programmers have just gone ahead and found fixes for OO.o, which enables it to run with GCJ.
Caolán McNamara, a programmer with Red Hat who specializes in word processing, has created one such set of fixes.
A source at Sun said, "OO.o 2 works OK with GCJ" and that "Red Hat has been tremendously helpful in the effort to make that so, filing bug reports etc."
In addition, while OO.o will run without a JVM (Java Virtual Machine), it will use one if it's available, and its performance has been found to be much better if Sun's 5.0 JVM is used.
But, as Scott Carr, OO.o's quality assurance project co-lead pointed out, "OO.o will run perfectly well without any JVM, but if there is a JVM then it has to do checks to make sure what features are supported in the JVM as well as run various functions. These are only run in the presence of a JVM."
-- end FTA --
So... if there is a JVM, [something] runs better/faster than if there wasn't. For starters, the app works without Java. Secondly, it's been fixed to compile with an open-source Java compiler. Thirdly, what kind of code runs this way? The article didn't specify.
How odd.
Regardless, this is still a big deal about nothing, as per usual.
-Rob
Marriage doesn't have to suck!
which is compatable with SUN's jvm? Sun is not the only source for java.
Granted it's not GPL'd but thats RMS problem not mine.
So Long and Thanks for all the Fish.
is the most creative one I have seen yet.
All your Sybase are belong to us.
One thing that comes to mind is that Mac OSX has a pretty good Java implementation. The OSX port of OpenOffice 1.x was always buggy (and is split between an official X11 port and the native NeoOffice under the GPL)
OSX HIG-compliance is probably a lot easier to achieve in Java than the current X11/Win32 codebase
I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
Hear, hear!
OO's Java dependency is actually having a positive overall effect on FOSS development. Because of both Eclipse and OpenOffice.org, the development of much-needed and long overdue open-source mature Java implementations has made great strides recently.
Already Red Hat's OSS Java implementation is sufficiently mature to run Eclipse without any proprietary Sun software. Similar efforts by Debian and others are currently underway to get OpenOffice.org's Java-dependent features to work with exclusively open-source software.
Why do so many people fail to understand this?
I assume that the animosity by many of these "assholes" is actually due to irrational loathing of the Java language and platform in general, thinly veiled behind the "there are currently no mature OSS implementations" excuse. Bah.
"Oooh, does that mean we get to kick some puffy white mad zionist butt?"
Hé des ABRUTIS, le code source courant de Java peuvent être téléchargés ici [ sun.com ], et la dernière version de développement peut être téléchargée ici [ java.net ]. Et si ce n'est pas assez pour vous, votre Kaffe précieux [ kaffe.org ], gcj [ gnu.org ], GNU Classpath [ gnu.org ], et d'autres projets "de source ouverte" travaillent à reimplementing le JVM. Je ne m'inquiète pas en particulier si vous aimez Java ou pas, mais j'ai eu assez de cette connerie au sujet de Java étant ouvert ou pas. C'est un rien language/platform de Dieu avec des milliers de projets ouverts réussis de source sous lui, et a été ouvert six manières au dimanche. Comparer l'issue à la situation fâcheuse de Linus est insincère au mieux, n'est pas malhonnête pure! Pour ne pas mentionner qu'OpenOffice est le bébé du soleil. Ils ONT PAYÉ L'CArgent LUI. (je sais qui est un concept étranger ici, puisque le monde fraking entier est censé être LIBRE pour la prise fraking.) Si vous n'aimez pas la direction OpenOffice a pris, alors va jeu avec KOffice. Attente d'Oh, vous alreay pissé leur au loin aussi. Y a-t-il n'importe qui que vous peuplez ne ferez pas un ennemi de à vos recherches de Quixotic de stupidité? Les excuses pour l'abrasif de ce poteau, mais le crap comme ceci le méritent. Vous avez été donnés un cadeau et tout que vous pouvez faire doit le regarder dans la bouche.
The most visible evidence of that is that the FSF (Free Software Foundation) is "is looking for volunteers to maintain a version of OpenOffice that doesn't require a non-free Java platform."
Isn't the JDK code from SUN supposedly made available as an Open-Source project, if not already done?
If it's not done, it's on the way. And the whole whinning is just one more attempt at FUD from people who don't know anything about the Java language. Could that be?
Not Java. Fork Open Office. Write the whole thing in Lisp if you wish. If yours is the better deal, the world will beat a path to your door.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
Fork it, or create something from scratch. We the users benefit.
www.lonseidman.com
>If someone could explain how this relates to OO.o's use of Java, I'd appreciate it.
2 .0-development/ch19lev1sec2.html
s p
As I say in the story--in a one sentence remark--it's because in both cases, some people are objecting to the use of proprietary software in an open source project.
It's not like this is a new battle between free software advocates and open-source supporters. The one most people probably know best is the use of TrollTech's QT in KDE. For more on that, see:
http://developer.kde.org/documentation/books/kde-
For the original version of the OO.o story see:
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1813986,00.a
Steven
I dunno about you, but ease of use and functionality is what matters to me.
OpenOffice just works.
I use it for my busiess, at home and for my campaign staff.
I'm not even sure how your points are relevant to the use of StarOffice and the purpose sun is trying to fill with this application.
So...I can download it (and its source) and use it for free? What's to complain about?
Getting activestate perl is *easier* than getting java, you simply download the installer and run it, rather than having to work out whether you need a JRE or a JDK or a J2EE or JME or whatever. Ditto for python. I'd use python myself, but perl would work equally well, and so I think would C# considering it will be bundled with the next windows and used for new MS apps (so they'll make very sure it's easy to install) and non-windows users can probably handle installing mono.
I am trolling
my issue with java is not so much java/opensource/gpl..., but rather speed/memory/footprint.
Open office is already huge and somewhat slow. Java will only make this worse.
I remember when Mozilla was feature rich (kitchen sink), slow and huge. I stuck with old Netscape4 until Phoenix/Firebird/Firefox came fixed the Mozilla problems.
After OO2 is released, probably someone will fork it, replacing all the java, and call it FireOffice, then OpenOffice will adopt the changes.
That most Open Source advocates, when faced with nothing to bitch at (Microsoft) will bitch at anything (OpenOffice).
Wait, I know. If they don't like it, they can write their own or use something else! Imagine that!
Whoop De doo. A Popular Open Source project is developed in a language that is not Stallman approved. What do you guys want. C/C++ where porting it to a different platform is a huge hassle. Python/Perl/Ruby/PHP where the user will need to install an other virual machine on there system. Almost all companies know of or at least heard of Java and not afraid of installing JavaVM but having to go to python.org that might make them a little iffy. Besideds Sun is paying for to keep the project going. Why not use there technology that in my opinion is OPEN ENOUGH. Not everything needs to be open, for God sake let the developer choose what tools they want to make the program in. And if the program does what you want should be your consern. If it doesn't dont use it.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
2. RTFA, the major problem is that they're using undocumented sun-only features, almost as if they're deliberately breaking it on Kaffe etc.
Since everyone has access to the OO sources, nothing can stop Kaffe, Apache J2SE, GNU Classpath or any other project to implement these "proprietary" features, as they are called from the source code.
It is most unlikely that sun would actually take legal action for the "unauthorised" use of these non-standard API extensions required for OO support, since they would then really be making dicks of themselves.
"Oooh, does that mean we get to kick some puffy white mad zionist butt?"
Over 90% of the code in OO.o is contributed by SUN programmers, and now, at the last minute, we get non-contributing opensource fan boys doing their prunes because its not going in the direction of which they wanted it to.
Question, where the hell were they for the last several months? why did it *suddenly* take them *just months* before the release for them to rattle their chains and start whining?
I mean, from what it appears, like the article has pointed out; the only people complaining are a few whiners from the peanut gallery, and some roudy rent-a-crowd from the opensource 'programming' world (I used programming in such a manner as many call themselves one even though all they've ever done is submit a one line patch to a opensource project, correcting a problem that even GWB could fix).
I mean, there has been soooo much work getting Abiword and Gnucalc up to speed with all those *massive* contributions by the anti-OO.o crowd
OOo cannot remain dependent on Sun Java: Sun Java just runs on too few systems and configurations. Either OOo gets hacked to remove dependencies on Java altogether, or it needs to be packages with a small, open source Java implementation that works well enough to let OOo function.
Of course, none of this is particularly surprising: Sun is trying to introduce dependencies on their proprietary software in many pieces of software. It's an evil master plan, and it won't work, but that won't stop Schwartz and McNealy from trying until their company is bankrupt.
I don't see anywhere in the article that indicates they're using undocumented internal com.sun.* classes. The problem seems to be that some key functionality in OpenOffice is implemented with Java, and that Java itself is not free. Also, it adds a requirement that any platform that runs OpenOffice must have a compatible implementation on Java.
That also means that, if OpenOffice is coded to the Java spec (which it should be), then they shouldn't feel responsible for making the code run with Kaffe, GCJ, Harmony, or any other non-spec Java environment.
On the other hand, if they coded it to spec, then OO shouldn't preclude the use of a different Java environment. If Kaffe, etc. were up to spec, it wouldn't be an issue. (I have no problems with these implementation, they all admit to various places where they don't fully implement the Java spec).
This is a purely political/religious/philosphical issue, not a technical one. The objection to Java is because Java itself isn't free, not that OpenOffice is tied to a particular implementation of Java.
C++/Qt4
Invalid pointers? Nope
connect( foo , SIGNAL( sigDoThis() ) , bar , SLOT( slotDoThis() ) );
Will leave a nice friendly message if they can't be connected. No more null pointer exceptions.
Buffer overflows? Use QByteArrays instead of raw pointers. Will give you nice friendly "Index out of range" debug message.
Personally (and I have used Java), I've found it excellent to avoid hard crashes. I feel I have to handle less of those than Java exceptions, really. No JVM (memory hog), no Java GUI (speed hog) and all the power of raw C++ at your fingertips if you want to.
Of course, OO would do okay. Unless you caught the news, Qt4 will be GPL'd on all platforms (Win,Mac and Linux). But Sun would have to purchase Qt licenses for all the StarOffice employees. See you at the ice-skating party in hell.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
kthxbye
Your hybrid is not saving the environment. Its purpose is to make you feel good about buying something.
It seems that people are getting upset at looking at the imports in the code without realizing that THEY ARE NEVER USED!!! Again, I refer you to the blog entry, but for those of you too lazy:
This gcj request asks for the addition of java.awt.Frame.createBufferStrategy which is all that is missing from gcj to build the java canvas stuff. (Though the canvas module contains a pile of spurious imports of sun.awt which are unnecessary and can be removed, not that there's much point right now, if a createBufferStrategy becomes available then removing the sun.awt from the canvas/java .javas is all that's outstanding)
Nothing to see here, just move along. More jumping the gun rather than investigating things to completion.
Who is John Galt?
Here's your solution, instead of crying about it.
Take Open Office 1.0 codebase, and Spork! Implement those features that you have to have. Don't jab Sun for implementing new features with one of their flagship products. They still sell StarOffice right?
"It takes many nails to build a crib, but one screw to fill it."
GCC supports far more CPU and OS targets than Java does. Worse, with proprietary software, targets can be suddenly dropped. Windows NT once supported PowerPC, DEC Alpha, MIPS, and x86. If you bought an Itanium, you're out in the cold now, too.
It's like saying:
"The US invaded Iraq today. In other news, Tom Cruise was seen using a porta-potty."
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
You've been given a gift and all you can do is look it in the mouth.
But if you aren't begging, you retain your ability to choose. The Trojans might well have been advised not only to examine the teeth, but have a very careful look all the way down the throat of their gift horse.
In fact, that's why we call an entire class of "gift" programs "Trojan Horse."
KFG
GCJ can already compile and run Eclipse, which is one of the most complex Java apps out there. I doubt compiling OPenOffice 2.0's Java code into .so format would be a huge hurdle.
project to tackle then. Break open the OpenOffice.org source code and fix it if you don't like it.
Setting his threshold to 5, Sparky eliminated most of the trolls on /.
If you think that the Java license is not a problem, try running Java apps on a non-Intel Linux platform such as linux/ppc. Sun does not make a JRE for linux/ppc so the choices come down to IBM Java (which is also non-free, crashes frequently and does not support the 1.5 spec), Blackdown (which is non-free and seems to be stalled at 1.3), and the free JREs such as Jikes which will always be behind the curve as RMS points out.
These problems are not incidental. They're a necessary consequence of the non-free license. Fewer developers are allowed to work with the code. This lack of resources directly translates to less portability. It also lengthens the bug fix cycle, slows the adoption of new features, and places supreme power in the hands of the copyright holder. If you require big changes to a free software product, you have the power to make those changes or hire someone else to make them for you. If you require big changes to a non-free product, you're at the mercy of the copyright holder.
In the case of Java, the source is not as open as Sun would like you to believe. Parts of it are open. Other parts are locked away in binary files. You need an existing Sun bytecode compiler (on a platform supported by Sun) to build Java from source. This necessarily precludes porting it to other platforms without assistance from Sun. This is why the folks at blackdown needed to sign special agreements with Sun before they were granted access.
I love Java. It's quickly becoming my favorite programming language, but I also have to agree with RMS that the license is problematic. Great language. Dangerous platform.
If/when GNU Java and/or Classpath allow me to run the Java features of OO.o, is that OK with the FSF?
... is my use a proprietary implementation only in keeping with the philosophy of the FSF if there is an free/libre alternative that I simply choose not to use?
Now, say I prefer to use Sun's JVM. Am I FREE to do that?
My point is,
Research shows that 67% of those who use the term "research shows", are just making shit up.
Look its easy. Anytime anyone bitches about a linux project such as ' it doesnt do A' 'or B is shitty, i wish it did X and Y' the response is usually 'dont like it? Then why dont you code it'. This is EXACTLY what most OSS people say. Now they should eat their words. Its not that its written in java, its that it references undocumented Java functions. I say RMS should shut it and Fork the project if he's not happy.
Stuff translated with babelfish might be funny on Slashdot but don't use it in any serious project. This post is even more hilarious if you actually speak french.
P.S.: Why is that modded insightful instead of funny ? It's barely understandable with that translation.
Slashdot anagrams to "Sad Sloth"
If you don't like OO, don't use it. As many have pointed out here, Sun basically bought it, and then gave it away for free. Apparently, that's not good enough for the revolutionary crowd here. It's a wonder any of these companies will work with us at all. With friends like these...
I got into Linux because I wanted Unix at home. Not to rape and pillage the unbelievers. If we're getting to a point where I have to live by the Purer Faith, so to speak, just to use software, I'll head to BSD land. Because while I think the open source method is very, very cool, and will revolutionize software (in truth, it already has), I'm getting tired of the militants lecturing me about what I choose to put on my computer. I didn't sign up for that.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
yeah, but kword sucks.
Abiword and gnumeric are cool. Most of koffice is cool. KDE could merge to gtkmm and then we could all have one happy desktop.
It has been statistically shown that helmets increase the risk of head injury.
Although I know this is not exactly a good comparision as the jdk has somekind of restrictive distribution policy, you can say that because Oo dosesn't come bundled with X you must find it and install it. And so on. Java is on many windows system, and for those with broadband it's just 1,2 clicks away. Is that hard to click a link and install from there ?
I don't understand. Is an entire office suite made available free of charge not enough? I can also understand some people's hatred of Java (I'm not wild about it, either...Java was slow in 1996, but why is it still slow today?), but isn't the source code for Java available online, too? Does OOo rely on some sort of Java class that isn't publicly available or that is completely closed-source?
In short, can't companies be allowed to take little steps towards total openness? As long as OOo is still free, and I am still free to view and modify the source code, why should I worry about this?
Why does slashdot insist on posting such obvious trolls? This whole article and slashdot story should be modded -99 TROLL! The submitter obviously was hoping to start a flame war with the OSS free-software *coughstallmancough* zealots and the people who know better currently have the highest modded posts on this forum. There is no Java trap. As long as Java's source lays out in the open people will implement their own JVMs and compilers and the world will move on. If Sun goes down the drain then well, I guess by gosh those OSS zealots that are whining need to get their act together to implement all of those open sourced "hidden features."
.Net has a long ways to catch up. Can't we find better things to argue over? That Java is even open sourced says multitudes about the effect of Free Software.
With the world all going to hell, you'd think that people could find better things to argue about. Java is obviously a well used toolbox in the open source and to say that it will have negative consequences is truly sad. Why do people use Java even though people bitch and moan about how slow and slow it is and how it lacks certain primitives (and it does), it is because it just works on nearly any operating system. When you only want to devote the time to develop for one platform, but at the same time allow just about anyone with a computer to run your code, what are you going to use?
Azureus, Slimserver's MP3 player, a bunch of emulators, and a whole slew of other projects that can be found on Sourceforge, amongst other places, were all built on Java.
Who knows, Java may live up to its promises as a platform for embedded devices one day. Given how many Universities teach Java right from the start and how many teachers are right now telling people that Java is likely to be the next big language, I wouldn't exactly say that Java is going anywhere anytime soon. Microsoft is now wishing they had come up with a similar idea and
Next troll/story please!
zosxavius photography
Java is a free language just like Adobe's PDF product is.
According to Sun, Java is not a "free" language--you can't just implement it any way you like, they control it.
The only non free issue surrounding Java is SUN's implementation...
In roughly the same sense that "the only non free issue surrounding Windows is Microsoft's implementation".
If you don't mind Sun owning Java, why don't you just become an all Microsoft shop? Their technology these days is at least as good as Sun's, and you end up having fewer hassles.
There are free bios's (linuxbios for instance) that can boot linux, linux can also boot on systems with other firmware such as sun openfirmware or digital srm..
On the other hand, linux requires HARDWARE to run on, which is also non-free.
The bios is FIRMWARE.. perhaps it has some justification for being non-free seeing as it's integrated into the hardware which will always be non-free. The hardware business is not a scam like the software business, there is ALWAYS a cost for producing hardware, raw materials etc, and hardware usually becomes cheaper once the initial development costs are covered, unlike software.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
What cygwin-esque environment is needed to run python apps? Links and resources, please...
Normally, I just install python's win32 installer, and run my apps. If I need some third-party extension, I just install it, and go. No need for any cygwin-esque environment.
-gus
Which is precisely what the Free Software Foundation is doing. The FSF people are hoping that the folks at Sun will want to prevent a fork bad enough that they will work at little harder at making OO.org work with gcj. If Sun doesn't play ball then the FSF will fork OO.org and their gcj version will undoubtedly become the version that gets shipped with at least the Debian and Red Hat (and Fedora) distributions (and very probably others as well). And don't think these organizations are bluffing either. Gnome got its start in almost exactly the same way. The FSF, Red Hat, and Debian didn't like the licensing for KDE and so they did something about it.
The real question is whether or not Sun wants a large chunk of its current OO.org's user base to use someone else's fork of OO.org because that's what is currently shaping up to happen. If Sun's execs think that these organizations (especially the FSF) are likely to be "reasonable" about the use of non-free software then they are clearly delusional. Sun has been dealing with GNU software and the FSF forever, and they have never seen them back down once.
The worst part is that Sun really needs the Free Software faction of the Open Source community. After all, it really does take a zealot to propose replacing MS Office with some other piece of software. The pragmatists in the crowd are more than happy to wait and see if MS Office can really be replaced. The people that are currently considering replacing MS Office with OO.org are doing so because they believe in Free Software. Without enough zealots to take that first step OO.org is never going to have serious market penetration.
Once Apache finishes and gets their clean room java runtime engine up and going, I could give two shits less what happens to Sun. They can go under for all I care. Once there is an open source JRE out there, using java wont matter one bit from a I-hate-proprietary-stuff standpoint. In fact, I'd expect to see java usage go up if there is an open source JRE.
The Doormat
If you're not outraged, then you're not paying attention.
As long as whoever is complaining takes the necessary steps to provide a different solution I guess they have a right to speak up their minds. Of course they should understand that the Open Office developers are still FREE to do as they wish.
diegoT
I think part of the issue here is to know precisely what parts of OOo use Java and go from there. Are they necessary to the functioning of OOo or just frilly extras?
In all the posts here, I haven't read anything about how this affects the Mac version or vice-versa. Since OOo is not directly supported on the Mac, NeoOffice has stepped up... With increased use of Java again!
There was a large chunk of code donated to OOo from the NeoOffice/J project. Anyone want to take bets on how much of it was Java-based?
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
What have OO using Java and Linus' change from bitkeeper got in common?
NOTHING AT ALL!
Why add the rider editor? The article was valid enough without stirring things.
The FP was accurate - it's free so why no use it??
A poll on who uses which version of Java is required!!
"goatse? What's that? Anyone have a link?" - AC
Framing java as "not open sourced" misses some significant shades of gray in the software development community. The useful tools for java development have been constructed by a community, and are available for download from sourceforge, apache, sun and other 'vendors'/bazaars.
The useful tools for competing languages are highly proprietary, and the availability of mature, useful communities and code for extending those languages is far more limited than with java.
Criticizing OpenOffice for being built with Java, which isn't "open", is kind of silly, in this broader context. It amounts to cutting off our nose to spite our face.
objectWizard42
OO.o helped out getting rid of non-portable java constructs in their code.
Red Hat hackers and other fixed some gcj and classpath bugs revealed by OO.o.
Now it all works.
What you and many others fail to understand is that Java the trademark might be owned by Sun, but Java the language LONG AGO went into the hands of the community - namly the Java Community Process. Java is really controlled by a LOT of companies now including IBM. Do you think IBM is really going to care if Sun withdraws into a shell? They would move forward with Java regardless, and they have a whole VM to back up such an action.
Java already has a community. It's up to Sun to try and mesh the two communities but if you just pretend Java = Sun then you will never understand the results of anything that happens, as the reality is far more complex.
Personally I'd like to see the focus be on catching up GCJ with the standards, and having a first-class Open Source Free VM. Then this whole debate is moot.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
There's tons of GPL'd projects that are completely coded in Java. If Sun at all does an about face in future it will change the way the industry functions in many ways, because of the extremely widespread use of the language.
It is pointless delving so deeply into the minute details of the licensing of Java as it is much too deep rooted into the IT industry and the open source community for Sun to take any such step without facing major opposition and not to mention, a huge dent on its goodwill. Remember, its not Microsoft that it could simply *buy* support for itself.
I can no longer use Kprint.
I've lost a MASSIVE amount of features, options and control over my printers.
I just (2 days ago) installed Suse 9.3 and it comes standard with OO.o 2.0
I am NOT pleased with this at all. I had the same problem with Suse 9.2.
I ended up removing the default OO program and installing 1.1.1
I then had FULL control over all the features and options of my printers and was happy. Not to mention, it was free and clear of all the current complaints.
I don't need all the bling-bling crap the 2.0 comes with anyway not to mention, I don't like Java..
So do what I did (am about to do again) and install an older version and STFU....
Newer is not always better........
Can someone please explain how these two situations are different?
Before there was a demi-god called Stallman, there was the BIOS. Even Stallman had to bow down to a higher authority.
After the BIOS, came a demi-god called Sun, who spoke in the language called Java. But Stallman was jealous of all the attention that Sun got for making Java.
Since Stallman was the creator of GNU/Linux, and didn't drink deeply of Java, he's been pissing on Sun's parade ever since then.
If GCJ could be improved to the point that it supports the newer Java specs well, and OO can use it as a base - then this whole issue goes away.
So you can try to convince a company to change policy, a group of developers to take a whole different approach to the project that would delay things by a year, or simply FIX THE PROBLEM. It used to be that people actually wanted to fix problems instead of bitching for the sake of it.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Actually he doesn't seem to like the idea of a non-fre BIOS. fsf article
Linux BIOS Project (unfortunately can't find a link to the linux bios project itself, the site linuxbios.org had a blank page up)
Intel Open BIOS site doesn't seem to want to resolve either.
Thank you to the developers of OO for creating a good alternative to MS Office. Thank you for your hard work and dedication. I will use OO 2 because it works well and is compatible with MS Office formats. Oh, wait. It requires a free JVM available for 99.9% of the OSs available. Guess what, that is OK with me. If you don't like it, change it! Isn't that what free software is all about. Show us, oh holy coders, how you can make it better without using Java. If you don't like it and can't make it better, buy Windows and MS Office. Maybe that will make you feel better.
Just pointing this out. Sun OO.org have been quite helpful on this accepting patches to make sure this can be done.
Article is not well researched, and sounds like scaremongering.
The JVM is a specification that may be implemented on different platforms as people are so inclined.
"Opening Java" will do nothing to address the problem of missing JVMs directly because the fundamental issue is one of demand. If you really need a JVM for your favorite toy OS, then start a project to build one.
all great human endeavours begin with a quest.
"Is there anyone you people won't make an enemy of in your Quixotic quests of stupidity?"
If Stallman had not, long ago, began his lone quest for software freedom, and had not invited others to do the same, you wouldn't have yours most precious Hybernate, Tomcat, Eclipse and others.
no, you'd most likely be paying to M$ for VB even to this day.
"You've been given a gift and all you can do is look it in the mouth."
It's not a gift. Just like M$ distributing their software for free in educational centers is not a gift.
I don't feel like it...
So anyone who does not go 100% his way has to be undermined, even if thier motives are not hostile. So sun decides that being nicer with thier code will be profitable in the long run. What do they get? The RMS torch and pitchfork gang telling them what functions they can use or else!
Ok, so the idea that people should be free to deal with software in the manner in which they choose is a cool idea. What about the idea that someone should be free to deal with the product of thier labor (be it, widgets or prose or code) in the way that they choose? In the RMS "all or nothing model" the two are incompatible, anything I create belongs to the world and not to me. My mind must be the source of free labor, to keep any ideas to myself would violate what RMS claims as his rights.Who gets to decide how I distribute what I work to create, me or Stallman? The two claimed "rights" are in conflict.
It seems a lot of progress has been made in getting commericial interests to consider and sometimes even participate in open source. But it doesn't help when supposed leaders of the community insist on ralling behind a worldview that is incompatible with commercial software existing at all.Free Mac Mini Yeah, it's
No my friend, it is you who needs to get a grip.
Why is it that Nerds have no vision... they are happy to just wallow in their own nerdiness and build solutions that no real people can use/want to use because only nerds can join the club. And don't tell me that Gates is a nerd too - because he isn't - he doesn't give a crap about technology, he only cares about big business.
And the only thing that matters at the moment is getting a real alternative to Microsoft products, because Microsoft is like a huge, doubly bloated, beached whale, rolling around and crushing the software market, squeezing the life out of all other products around it.
The only way out of this situation is to become credible competition to Microsoft, and you can't do that with a "no can do" attitude.
No one in the real world cares whether Debian, Fedora, Ubuntu or Oogabooga ship with or without Java, all they need to know is where to download their software from, or where they can get it on a CD. ("And by the way will it work the same as Word?")
Just today I tried to get a friend to use OpenOffice instead of Word, but they needed a swedish thesaurus and spell checker, which I couldn't rustle up. There is still work to be done, guys..... it's fantastic that you are doing it....
now get out there and do it....
If you are unhappy with OO.o then don't use it. There are other opportunities out there. But it seems to me, that all this is about hypocrisy. STOP IT.
/memborg Insert lame qoute here: []
Open Office beeing dependant on the Sun JVM is like a car that only runs on rails.
Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
Someplace deep within Sun, probably under Jonathan Schwartz' desk, lies the code for:
OpenWrite (MAJOR)P aint
AirMail
Concurrence
Diagram
EquationBuilder
ParaSheet (MAJOR)
Quantrix (MAJOR)
TaskMaster
VarioBuilder
VarioData
Wet
exists. All Obj C, mostly better than Microsoft's offerings of the same era. Definately better (IMO) than StarOffice (by any name) (Google for screenshots if you doubt that)
No apparent hope of resurrecting it, though. The "Dude" at Lighthouse is now "The Dude" at Sun.
Aside from that, I wouldn't say ObjC is/is not a way to go on its own, but you'd have to start looking beyond Obj C alone, to GNUSTEP/Cocoa. Would anyone want to do that? Probably, just not now.
OO.o is there, KOffice is there, MS Office is there, iWork is there.. Plus a plethora of single-purpose apps to fill in the gaps or satisfy the peculiar taste.
Access? Who needs that in a world of PHP/MySQL and increasing simplicity in mounting the task?
Excel? Beyond cells and '=sum(A3+B17)' what more do you need 99% of the time?
What would be the show stopper is if all these interfaces supported the same XML-formated, tied together (a'la OpenDoc/meta info), backend data. Then the program is just your chosen means to a sharable end.
Indeed, the problem is big. Some BSDs don't have java, linux ppc users either. Right now Java's "portability" is a joke with Sun's VM, even if it was free as in speech.
That's why GNU classpath & GCJ is important. It will provide us with a free (as in speech & beer) java VM for those who doesn't want to use Sun's VM (linux users, basically). Redhat is putting lots programmers & money behind of GCJ and collaborating with tons of community-based projects - they really want a free java. In fact, Redhat has some people hacking on GCJ to support openoffice's java features.
Actually, GCJ 4 is one of the GCC 4.0 greatest features, here is an article about why it's so great. They've achieved almost all Java 1.4 important features and there's work ongoing to support 1.5.
And GCJ does support, in fact, MORE architectures and operative systems than Sun's propietary offerings - yes, more. It's what will make java truly palataform-independent. GCJ is part of GCC, so it supports the platforms that gcc supports - much more than Sun's VM or other propietary VMs
Java itself is just a language, like English, and it isn't a problem itself.
What you probably mean is that Sun's virtual machine for running Java is not free, but that still isn't automatically a problem of any program written in Java, it's only problem of Sun's JDK.
It has been mentioned already that OO compiles fine in GCJ which _is_ free software, so there is certainly no problem here.
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe.
H.G. Wells, "The Outline of History"
Without it, OOo would've started shipping its own version of Java -- just as they ship just about everything else -- dmake, expat, BerkeleyDB, you name it...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
GCJ can compile java code for the platforms supported by GCC - way more than Sun's offerings or other propietary VMs.
Red Hat is paying people to support OOo 2.0 with GCJ. And GCJ 4.0 is already quite good...
Also, who is Linus Trolvalds?
:-)
He's the guy who always asks if the toaster can run Linux, or screams that SCO is eating children. He is the Trollvalds.
I am defenseless. Use your button. Mod me down with all of your hatred.
I just installed KDevelop and was reading through their online documentation. Points of interest relevant to your query:
Especially interesting is Kommander: "..a simplified and modified version of Qt Designer which lets you add scripting abilities to the dialogues it makes. It saves the result as a designer UI file which can be run with Kommander Executer. It is the easiest way to make simple programmes, I like to think of it as graphical shell scripting."
Point and click installers are bad. Good package managers do not ask redundant questions.
Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
If the FSF actually does what you suggest the most likely outcome is a gain in market share for C# at Java's expense and a fragmentation in OpenOffice that will slow its adoption.
The FSF may actually have more to lose than Sun.
Uh, how is any of this a loss for the FSF? If OO gets forked they'll be happy, and if the fork delays things they'll be able to say "I told you so." If C# kills Java they will probably care less - neither is free software.
The FSF doesn't exist to oppose Microsoft. They exist to promote free software, and oppose all proprietary solutions. Which isn't to say they oppose all commercial solutions - just proprietary commercial solutions.
Now, if all of this slows down the adoption of Gnome, KDE, Linux, GNU OS, or whatever else, then that might be a partial loss for the FSF. However, the FSF does not promote Java, and their interest in OO is to steer it away from Java.
Secondly, you can use py2exe to generate a win32 executable out of your python code, including all required packages. It's all self-contained. The end user will have no idea that it's python code.
Does it run under Windows? I don't really use Windows myself, but considering how a majority of the desktop users do, KOffice won't get widely adopted if it depends on the presence of KDE libs, QT, and X, all of which are very *NIX-esque.
As it's been already stated in those comments, gcj can run openoffice almost completely. Now, the Apache foundation started a free (as in speech) implementation of j2se 1.5, so sooner or later, I'm sure the integration of JAVA won't be a problem anymore, and people will stop whining Java is not free (I'm one of those whiners, becoming more and more confident).
See: The Java Trap, by Richard Stallman
Sun's implementation of Java is non-free. Blackdown is also non-free; it is an adaptation of Sun's proprietary code. The standard Java libraries are non-free also. We do have free implementations of Java, such as the GNU Java Compiler and GNU Classpath, but they don't support all the features yet. We are still catching up.
So the "free" version of Java is incomplete.
The reliable way to avoid the Java Trap is to have only a free implementation of Java on your system. Then if you use a Java feature or library that free software does not yet support, you will find out straightaway, and you can rewrite that code immediately.
And he wants developers to write Java targetting this crippled "free" version instead of the official Sun compiler.
Here's an idea FIX THE DAMN "FREE" COMPILER. There's nothing wrong with the Java code people are writing - it's the incomplete "free" compiler that's the problem.
I am the maverick of Slashdot
These so-called "open source advocates" need to get off their friggen high horses... if they are so upset about OpenOffice, I'm sure Microsoft would love to have them as customers using MS's Office suite.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
At least it isn't Microsoft Office. I don't see many other F/OSS projects trying to compete with Microsoft Office.
To the typical user that installs it in Windows, they won't notice the dependance on Java. To those more technically savvy, they will notice the Java dependency.
Besides being Java based makes it easier to port to different platforms.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
What's scary is that you are freakin' serious. First off, there's nothing similar to Java that runs faster at raw performance numbers (method calls/second, numerical speed, GC). Python is much slower in that respect. Even the leading Smalltalk implementations are 1/4 the performance of Java at object-oriented benchmarks like method call overhead. Smalltalks are similar to Python in being dynamic object-oriented languages, but have had a LOT more optimization work done. Microsoft does everything they can to prevent non-funded C# benchmarks from being released, but even their C# is significantly slower performance-wise in running "managed code" (mono is a non-contender).
You're right that Python can be faster, mostly at scripting, because of using native code in more direct ways, but for something like OO.o where there is a LOT of code and quite a bit of math (laying out all that data, updating spreadsheets) realistically a pure-python implementation would probably be around 1/20th the speed of a Java one. FYI, Python runs significantly faster than Jython/JPython because the Java virtual machine is not designed for dynamic ("message passing") form of OO... but running the quivalent code in Java and Python, and Java will be the clear winner.
And oh yeah you think Mono is faster because the Language shootout says so? Or Java is slow? Take for example the word-counting benchmark for C, C#, and Java. Notice that the Java version uses the system locale's definition of whitespace where as the C# version hard-codes checks against space, \n, and \t? Or that the C version uses freaking table of sums to avoid branching? Under the hood Java is doing three method calls, an &, and a compare is almost as fast as Mono doing just 3 simple integer comparisons. Not that the language shootout is even fair... for instance it should compare throughput by increasing the number of iterations until it takes more than a certain time (so if C is 5x faster on a benchmark it does 5x more iterations). When even this minor scripting is too difficult to do it doesn't inspire much confidence in the results. Without this change they have lots of granularity errors and measuring of startup time on the fast end.
So yeah mod me down because this is a rant... but I'm just tired of the ignorant repeating over and over that Java is slow, when it's really the fastest of its kind.
All I wanna know is when do I get version 2 final.
"And now, Frank N. Furter, your time has come. Say 'goodbye' to all of this, and 'hello'... to oblivion!"
The example I like of how Sun does not really control Java anymore is generics. If Sun could do what it liked we would have had generics in 1.4, but there was wrangling and so it was delayed.
Does Sun get members on all the major comittes? Yes. They have a certain degree of guranteed participation. But that does not equal control, as one member cannot overrule a whole panel.
Basically there are a lot of big, powerful players around Java now and all of them have a say. Java hs the most "real" standards body I've seen because I as an individual can see a lot more of what is going on and even have some influence if I care deeply about a JSR.
For better or for worse Java really is steered by a lot of people now, whcih means it's not as nimble but also means better stability for the platform.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The Pentiums OO.o runs on is also patented, and obscured by trade secrets - not to mention circuitry too tiny to examine without sophisticated equipment. Until Pentium microcode is OSS, we must not use it.
--
make install -not war
Am I the only one who worries about OOo2 becoming even slower and more resource-wasting than the original?? Don't get me wrong, I love Java as a programming language, but let's be honest for a sec: Java on the desktop SUCKS. It's slow, it burns up memory like mad, etc. And people who say otherwise are clearly deranged.
Both of which load in what seems like an order of magnitude faster than Open Office, I might add.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
Also, who is Linus Trolvalds?
GEE, I DON'T KNOW! It doesn't even look remarkably similar to anyone whose name would be posted daily on slashdot. Go huff some more spray paint you ass-clown.
No, you're the one who needs to get a grip.
Free Software isn't about taking down Microsoft and other big corporations. I don't use FreeBSD because I want to "stick it to the man." Free software is about being able to use software unencumbered by licensing restrictions. And what do you mean that nerds have no vision? Richard Stallman, Linus Torvalds, the BSD developers, and hundreds of other nerds have the vision of creating completely free software for everyone. Yes, we still have some things to work on (like that Swedish thesaurus and spell checker that you mentioned), but it's getting there.
Nobody in the "real world" (boy I hate that phrase; I'll change it to "non-geek world") cares about Debian and Fedora shipping Java because the non-geek world uses Mac OS X and Windows. The last thing on the average Mac user's or Windows user's mind is the licensing of Java; it either comes with their computer or it is a quick download away. But Linux and BSD users are in a different realm, the "surreal world" as you probably call it, and they aren't generally going to put up with the licensing. Besides, Sun Java isn't available for many platforms. What if I'm using NetBSD on an Alpha machine? Too bad, I can't use Sun Java even if I wanted to.
The point is, free software isn't about "sticking it to the man." It is about using unencumbered software. If you have a problem with this, you can always return to your Mac or Windows box, along with your Java. Nobody's stopping you from using that, and nobody's stopping geeks like myself from forking OpenOffice.
Just what makes you think Sun won't start charging for JAVA at some point? It's exactly the same thing except there isn't currently a commercial version - they'll just drop the free one and make it commercial only.
"Java VMs exist for pretty much every known architecture"
There is no 64bit JVM for my AMD processor. This means I can't run OOo on a pure 64bit OS. Abiword and Gnumeric don't have this problem.
And yes, Stallman is a bit obsessive about all this, but that doesn't invalidate his central point. Bitkeeper is irrelevant, but if/when the same thing happens with Java the rest of you will finally understand what RMS point is exactly.
Because it will be more reliable and quite possibly faster under Java? From a utilitarian perspective the use of Java is a benefit, not a drawback.
Sun had *better* be concerned about a Free Software Java replacement. The various Free Software Java Application servers are basically sucking the life out of the proprietary middleware scene, and one of the few real advantages over Red Hat that Sun has is the fact that they control Java.
Actually, the FSF probably wouldn't mind if C# won out over Java. After all, Mono is already a useable replacment for .NET. The FSF is opposed to proprietary software no matter who makes it. Their stance is not a dogmatic against Microsoft.
I doubt it. The Free Software Foundation is run on a shoestring budget, and has almost nothing to lose. It also has a long history of sticking with its principles. Not only that, but the FSF has a long history of actually winning these sorts of battles. QT, MySQL AB, Python, Mozilla, and many other projects have all changed their licensing stance due to pressure from the FSF. After a while the FSF just wears people down. Sun has never really played along with the FSF, but that doesn't stop most Sun admins from installing the GNU tools for Solaris first thing after booting their new Sun boxen.
Sun, on the other hand, is a publicly traded company that is performing poorly. Sun needs the Free Software Foundation to help drive sales of its hardware. If it weren't for the Free Software that has sprung up around Java then Sun wouldn't have a chance in Hades of competing with even the competing Free Software toolkits, much less against Microsoft. And that doesn't even include Sun's nascent desktop projects that all rely almost entirely on Free Software.
If Sun is going to thrive once again then they have to keep the Free Software crowd happy, and Sun's Java stance is simply not getting that done.
RMS being a programming God is laughable. He's a bum first and formost. Before he started the GCC project he first tried to bum a compiler off someone else for NOTHING then tried to take someone else's source code and create an improved version to undoubtedly name RMS-CC or something equally stupid then started GCC with *supposedly* no code from the compiler he was going to use previously. This pattern lives on to this day. 1) Try to get something for free with no strings attached from someone else 2) Base your product on someone else's work 3) Give up and write a new one from "scratch"
A lot of people don't use OOo for one reason - it doesn't have 100% compatibility with Word. I have met one person who uses Word because of more advanced features. Most people don't touch the advanced features.
I find it ludicrous that there's a debate about using Java which a) Isn't going away soon b) Is implemented on a lot of platforms and c) Is a documented spec whilst the major document formats for business are secret.
If people want to help OOo, they can send them a few bucks, or maybe find a local business and rewrite some macros so they can convert, or maybe help some users on a forum.
I write an application in "ANY" language "I" choose, and then I distribute the
_ ________
source code of the application which "I" had written in the language "I" chose
and people who want it download it, build it and run it.
That said open source has got nothing to do with the language I use but rather
the way I distribute my code and the accompanying usage terms.
I think some of these so-called hackers that are complaining about the use of Java
in OO, are doing so because they lack the necessary skills in Java to contribute,
and hence feel left out of the so called open-source "fame game".
Arash Partow
_________________________________________
Be one who knows what they don't know,
Instead of being one who knows not what they don't know,
Thinking they know everything about all things.
http://www.partow.net/
Arash Partow's Philosophy: Be a person who knows what they don't know, and not a person who doesn't know.
Correct me if this is wrong, but doesen't one need to deal with the libraries as well? How well do THEY work with other JVM's?
This MASSIVLY raises the bar for not-as-popular platforms, or new up-and-comming platforms. Now to get an office suite, they not only have to recompile / port an office suite, they have to write their own JVM! If this was easy, we would have dozens of alternatives to Sun's java and associated libraries that were 100% interoperable. The fact that there are ZERO right now that meet that criteria says something about how difficult this is.
I can run 64bit linux on the AMD64 platform and can't run native java. Linux is not a toy. Neither is the AMD64 platform.
You are right - I just had to vent a little after having seen this discussion several times over here and other places.
:P) - but I'm sure the end result will be a better, leaner package that even the FOSS movement will like.
I can also appreciate that using SUN Java can pose problems for some people. Personally I use Gentoo and SuSE so it's not really a problem for me, but I can still appreciate it.
However my subtle point is this, SUN needs to develop features in OOo in order for StarOffice to be competitive with other office packages.
Novell/Ximian also wants the most competitive package they can get.
The most argued point with OOo 2 is the fact that Base will only work with java - where before most of the java reliance did not directly affect usage here it actually degrades the "total experience[tm]".
I'm sure SUN and OOo coders like all the usage feedback - however StarOffice uses it's own dictionaries and translations, and they are completely seperate from the OOo ones (atleast that was the case when SO 6 and 7 was released).
So much for that part - then for the general stuff:
The OOo project faces some difficulties. Firstly, the codebase is apparently a mess (I don't know how to code, but even the OOo developers have stated this so I'll take their word for it).
Secondly the codebase has always relied on java (version 5 did, which was the version SUN purchased).
Now what I've been ranting about is, that since this seems to be a big issue for a lot of people with the OOo java dependency, why not help the OOo developers in 2 ways - help convert the java dependent code, and help clean up the code so it is more modular and less messy.
This will obviously take a long time (just think how long it took to make XUL
Regarding novell: I don't know if any of the coders they have are java coders - generally that is the problem, if the coder who can take on the project codes in java then what? Tell him to bugger off? With the limited ressources OOo has it's no surprise they are not going to say that.
Yes in the relationship you describe GM controls buick.
However if you play the "follow the money" game with Java you'll find that really a lot of other compnaies have as much (or more, as in the case of IBM) tied up in Java as Sun does. That is why Java has evolved into more of a consortium than anything directed mostly by Sun.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
You mean write once, run really slow everywhere = bad for OO.
How about standard C or C++. Using Wx, GTK or QT.
Abiword and Gnumeric is a good existing cross-platform replacement for the crap that open office has put out.
D is the answer. It's meant to take the good ideas from C++, Java, and C# and make a modernized C-type language which is suitable for systems programming and (relatively) easy to implement.
There's a a GCC frontend) in the works as well. In general, it seems like once this language gets a bit more mindshare it will really take off.
(D is currently #1 on the Great Computer Language Shootout- and while it does help a little that it's the only one with all the tests implemented, its ranking is due to very impressive performance.)
Volunteers needed to build, test and package free OpenOffice 2.0.
Seems the FSF plan to do something about it. I wonder is it a complete fork, or more a (dis)integration project.
The FACT is that there is a free Java which is very close to working with OO2.0.
How is that not Free? If there is any version of Java that is Free, how can you claim that Java is not Free? Even in the Java trap Stalman notes that if you write in Java at least make sure it works in the Free version - OO2.0 is a bit ahead but not that far. It can be addressed in that way much simpler than listening to the childish tantrums to drop Java just because they don't understand what the hell Java is but know a lot of Slashdot posters seem to not like it.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Here's a guy that wants every piece of software written using his GNU libraries to adhere to HIS license. And he has the guts to attack Sun for using Java?
There are lots of implementations of Java out there, and at least when using Java you can be pretty sure some madman is not putting any restrictions on your code.
One thing is certain: my code will *never* be GPL'ed. That's not to say that it won't be compatible with it of course. And LGPL is another matter. But GPL is a PITA.
So what this whole story is about is FOUR examples across the whole codebase? That's how many su.* and com.sun.* refs I see in the build errors - from back in January, some have been fixed now.
This story was nothing but giant flamebait aimed at griping about Java in general.
And the one example you mention is actually in hsqldb. Is that part of OO? I thought it was a seperetae project. So really it is a problem that HSQLDB coders have some old code left that uses the Sun security classes (probably not needed anymore).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The code is owned by Sun. Sun owns Java. Sun likes Java. This shouldn't surprise anyone.
.NET and other things all the time. What is next, there is going to be a geeksquad going out and attacking those projects as well?
... if you don't like what Sun is doing and feel you could do it better, then start up the GNU Office project. Otherwise, forget it.
The people complaining about this are looking a gift horse in the mouth. If you don't like the teeth, raise a new horse.
People create open source software in Java,
RMS
NOTE: I believe that Java -should- be open sourced, but that doesn't detract from the value of the gift that Sun has provided in Open Office.
Disclaimer: I work for Sun, but I have no control over software licensing and truthfully, don't want to.
It is more productive to voice thoughtful opinions (reply) than to judge (moderate) others.
Because he's old and fat. And tired of being an one-man revolution, constantly working to assuage the needs of other people. And he knows there are people who agree with him, who can also percieve the need.
Oh well, at least you can run Sun Java though, if not native Java.
Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
Being a programming god doesn't mean being a complete retard and trying to re-invent the wheel. Appropiate solutions to appropiate problems. How many compilers have *YOU* written?
Also, instead of just using one widget library, I think this office suite should use QT, GTK+ (1 and 2), Motif, OLIT, Athena, CDK, Java Swing, XView, AWT, JFC, XTC, OpenStep, and Tk are a few that come to mind.
Also, I think this office suite should use every open source shared library there is. In other words, in order to install and use this office suite, you would need to download about 100 gigs of dependency sources and compile them for about a year. When running, it would only require about two gigs of RAM. Every window and every part of the user interface would look and behave completely differently from the other parts. Some operations (like saving a file) would require opening a shell and invoking strange and obscure commands. It would take a lifetime to learn how to operate this office suite before a user could write a note to his grandma.
And then, we can tell everyone that this office suite, call it FreeAwfis for professionalism, is better than anything else out there.
how is this a troll? Java does not exist for OpenBSD/macppc. It does not because Sun will not grant redistribution.
If MS had been behind eugenics, we'd all be happy supermen by now
Aye. Picking up girls would be a bit of a bore though. It goes something like this:
"Can I get you a fatal exception error has occured. Please remain at the bar whilst this man-unit dumps core right in front of you, leaves, reboots to yesterday and returns to try again."
Resistance is futile. Reactance buggers it up.
I predict within five years either this issue will go away or Sun will be forced to OSS Java themselves - in which case this issue will go away.
I agree that Mono is treading risky ground trying to engineer something Microsoft won't sue them for, and I agree there is SOME slim risk that Sun, as it collapses over the next five or ten years, may try some stupid desperate move that screws up the Java licensing. When and IF that happens, we'll deal with it. Or the Chinese will.
People just want to complain about stuff - even if it's free - so it makes them look "morally superior" to everybody else.
In other words, STFU. If you don't like Java,
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
this is the kind of thing foes of open-source want: more wasted energies of talented open-source engineers in replicating what already works, what is already free except in the minds of a few fanatics.
instead of wasting time on rewrites and forks, fsf should look for people to do something that matters more to computing than rehashing stuff already done at great cost.[this is so pitifully predictible, i now expect stallman to call for programmers to start rewriting a free version of solaris after it is open-sourced in june. maybe he will want to rename it to to gnu/solaris to ease the spectacular failure of creativity and vision]
nous
The FSF has been alienating developers since the day it was started. Go back and read what the XEmacs folks have to say about RMS and the FSF, or study up on how gcc became egcs and then became gcc again. Read some of the emails between Guido van Rossum and the folks at the Free Software Foundation from the time period when Python was going through language contortions. Take a look at the Linux Kernel mailing list back when RMS was hacking GNU software so that identified the Linux kernel as "lignux" or the more recent GNU/Linux rants. Read some of the emails between the KDE folks and the FSF back when QT was licensed under the QPL. The list of people that the FSF has "upset" goes on and on and on. In fact, I think that RMS is addicted to conflict.
RMS makes everyone upset at one time or another, because he absolutely positively refuses to bend on Free Software issues. Yet here we are in 2005 and the FSF has more influence than ever. What's more, every time you turn around RMS turns out to be right. The Bitkeeper Linux Kernel fiasco is only one such example.
Sun needs the hard core Free Software hackers more than they need Sun. The Gnome desktop is a perfect example of how Sun's braindead treatment of Java is hurting their chances at a comeback. The Gnome hackers are pretty much unanimous in their desire to use a higher level language for further Gnome development. They would probably use Java if they could, but they can't because it's not Free Software. So instead a huge pile of Gnome hackers are now developing in C# because Mono is mostly finished. Another large whack of Gnome developers are working on getting GCJ to the point where it's useful too, but the stuff that they are working on isn't anything like Sun's Java platform. In a lot of cases these "java-ish" hackers are compiling Java to machine code, and they are invariably using non-pure Java extensions like SWT or Java-GTK for their GUI. So much for write once run anywhere with that kit. The Java Gnome hackers are likely to be more detrimental to the idea of Java as a platform than the Mono Gnome hackers. They are hard at work doing what Microsoft tried to do and failed. These Java hackers are creating Java code that is tied to gcj and the Gnome platform. At least Microsoft's JVM would run pure Java, gcj won't even do that. It only runs software specifically written to target gcj.
The truly funny bit is that in a year from now there is likely to be more C# and gcj-specific Java in Sun's Java Desktop than there is pure Java, and Sun is relying on this new software to help the company make up the deficit of their slowing hardware sales.
Sun isn't even good at influencing Java developers. Most professional Java developers pay more attention to IBM than Sun, and nearly all of them do all of their developing on Windows. With Free Software hackers Sun has a group of people that at least are interested in running some sort of UNIX. And when Java developers do write some Java Free Software they invariably borrow the FSF's GPL, and not one of Sun's myriad licenses.
The FSF is doing just fine. It's Sun that's in trouble of disappearing.
The source of a language isn't the compiler's code, it's the language specification.
If a language's structure is openly defined, then anyone can build a compiler for it. That *IS* the definition of an open-source compiler!
If OO.o doesn't work well with GCJ because the compiler fails to fully (and efficiently) implement the language standard, the it's the fault of the compiler, not the language.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
Since Stallman was the creator of GNU/Linux, and didn't drink deeply of Java, he's been pissing on Sun's parade ever since then.
It seems several FOSS icons do this. Sun could give them the goose that lays all the OSS code in the world, and they would still bitch about Sun. It's amazing, really.
If the source is open and anyone can get the Java complier for free who cares if Sun controls the way Java goes in the future. I imagine there are millions of developers who use Java so I don't see how this hurts the Open Source Community.
Sun had *better* be concerned about a Free Software Java replacement.
Sun went to great expense to publish a Java Specificaiton under a licence that allows 3rd parties to reimplement it. Obviously, Sun not only wants, but expects people to implement their own versions of Java(tm, as in according to the spec). And that obviously includes the FSF, who's cloned everything else Sun's made.
Plus the Sun JVM is a zero-revenue product that is shipped for OSes like Linux pretty much only for mindshare purposes. If a 3rd party would pick up platform responsibility for Linux Java, Sun would probably be glad to give it up. If Stallman can kick people in the ass and get a real free software JVM out there, everyone's for it.
Whenever I hear the word 'Innovation', I reach for my pistol.
Freely redistributable as in the freedom to reproduce it. I want my software to be able to be redistributed by the end user. The JRE does not allow this to be freely reproduceable except by the person who actually directly licenses this from Sun.
The JRE EULA does not allow this (read it). Instead it gives a "non-transferrable" license to redistribute it. In other words, if I download it from Sun, I can distribute it, but I cannot pass this right on to my end user.
Also under this license, I cannot distribute a choice of JVM's. I cannot even distribute the Sun JRE at the same time I distribute the GCJ if I understand the license correctly ("(iii) you do not distribute additional software intended to
replace any component(s) of the Software...")
Furthermore, what is this supposed to mean? "(v) you only distribute the Software subject to a license agreement that protects Sun's interests consistent with the terms contained in this Agreement..." In other words, does this give Sun the right to simply unilaterally decide that this is not in their interest and revoke my license just because they decide that they don't like my software and that the license I use for my software is not in their best interests?
Or am I the only one who ever reads these things?
Still this is better than TK on Windows (since ActiveState wants license fees for redistribution).
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
the only people the article identified as behind these complaints is the FSF.
Christ.
The FSF produces some great software, but why do they have to be such whiny bitches all the time? Seriously, they act like they own open source, and throw a tantrum anytime somebody else touches it. All I ever hear from them is how they are pissed off that people call it Linux and not GNU Linux, about how they are pissed off that people are using the word "open source" when they should say "free software". About how think that software has some kind of *moral obligation* to be free.
They also have the most anal retentive development policies I've ever heard of for an open source group. People had to fork emacs into xemacs because the FSF wouldn't accept code unless the developers gave them the copyright to it, in writing.
It just seems like I can't go a week without hearing about RMS doing something prickish. I say we draft an open letter to RMS, the contents of which would be something like this:
Dear Richard Stallman,
Thank you for GCC and emacs, they are awesome.
Incidentally, would you please, if it is not too much of a bother, go fuck yourself?
Sincerely, EVERYONE
"Free software", at least as Stallman understands it, is not about avoiding licensing restrictions. It is simply about making sure the code and derivate works always be released with their source code, which is a completely different thing.
If what he wanted to do was to seriously make software free of the encumberance of licenses then he would not be supporting the GPL (which IS a license).
diegoT
GCC, and libc, and bash, etc. existed before Linux.
It would be more sensible to say that without linux there'd be another kernel (say, *bsd or hurd)
And it is sensible the order in which the development took place. There is practically no point in running a free kernel in a non-free environment but there is in running a free compiler/libc/every-other-util in any non-free environment you choose.
Maybe the FSF should spend more time on GCJ development instead of forking a biggy like OOo2. And maybe we'd already have a more compliant Java-implementation, if it wasn't that Debian hindered interest in this language with not including Suns JVM for that long - If there's no real VM distributed, there won't run many apps, and without any Java applications there has been little incentive in evolving the free-as-in-FSF implementations at all.
Yeah, just like C is dead because Borland, MS and everyone else was able to embrace and extend it. Oh, wait.
I am trolling
le code source courant de Java peuvent être téléchargés ici
:)
With a singular subject, the verb should be in a singular form (e.g. 'peut'), and the verbal adjective in the subordinate clause should also agree (masculine subject - code - so 'téléchargé' would be correct)
OpenOffice est le bébé du soleil.
Indeed. And perhaps of Sun, too.
Thanks for the laugh.
And this is an important point, because it means that OpenOffice.org requires *Sun* Java. Not just Java, specifically the Sun VM and libraries. Those of us using the IBM JVM are probably out of luck; it may not run on the Apple JVM either.
I think it's just incompetence or bad design on the part of Sun rather than a deliberate decision, but it's still a problem.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
Ok... I'll drop the term "real world" if it offends anyone.
But I thought that the point was to make free software available to the masses (free software for everyone, as you say yourself - and I take it we're talking free as in freedom, not necessarily free as in beer). It's no good making the most wonderful free software if no-one ever gets to use it. And there are two things preventing people from using it at the moment:
1. They have never heard of it
2. It isn't quite a credible competitor to Microsoft, yet.
Now, I don't have any personal agenda against Bill Gates: he is very good at what he does. He saw early on that the way to conquer the software market was to make sure his software got into ordinary people's homes.
I just wish that the people who care deeply about great, free software also could see this.
The problem for OSS is that ordinary people usually don't research what software is best or cheapest or most free. They go with what they know, or else with what they're given, or else with what they can find in the shops.
Or did I get it completely wrong????? Am I the only one who wants to see ordinary people using OpenOffice??????