MS Calls On Kids to Stop Thought Thieves

theodp writes "Microsoft is calling all UK kids aged 14-17 to enter its Thought Thieves Competition. Remember kids, finalists must agree to formally license all intellectual property rights in their film on terms acceptable to Microsoft. And don't forget to download your free Thought Thieves Poster!"

Comments

Please kids don't steal

[Anonymous Coward]

That's Microsoft's job.

Re:Please kids don't steal

[0x461FAB0BD7D2]

I wonder if an entry with some of Microsoft's own deeds would win.

Of course, now that I've come up with the idea, no one else can do it, lest they defeat the spirit of the Thought Thieves competition.

Re:Please kids don't steal

[Proudrooster]

Yes they would... imagine if someone made a movie about all the companies that Microsoft crushed and stole from, just because they could. I know there is a much, much longer list of little companies who were lured in by Microsoft, had all their ideas stolen, and then cast aside.

I'll start the list.
Stac Electronics
Burst.com
Borland
Caldera over Dr. DOS in UK

This is almost a job for Michael Moore....

Re:Please kids don't steal

[HomerNet]

Has the $10,000 reward been claimed, then? Cuz last I heard, he was still offering that to anyone who could find a factual error in Fahrenheit 9/11.

That was pure publicity. Do you honestly think that he would pay one red cent to anyone who criticizes his work, especially given that this is his usual reaction to the slightest criticism?

Oh get to the youth.

[Saven Marek]

No it's not the hitler youth, it's the Thought Police Youth.

Just took 20 years longer than 1984.

First grade classroom, two years from now

[Anonymous Coward]

"Ms. PEEAAABODDDYYY!! Bobby is stealing my THOUGHTS!!"

Re:Don't bash them on this one

[cwebb1977]

don't bash them? They're asking kids about their thoughts on thought thieves just to get the rights to all those thoughts for a meager prize?
Maybe you're right, those kids will learn the most from their own mistakes.

I'm speechless.

[commodoresloat]

I tried to think of some witty comments here but there is nothing I can say funnier, darker, or more ironic than the story itself. This is even richer than when the MS Front Page license including a clause forbidding the use of Front Page to make web pages critical of Microsoft. The gall of these people! This is a new low, though, even for them. "Thought thieves"?! Someone up at MS is having a huge laugh over this.

Re:I'm speechless.

[nkh]

Someone up at MS is having a huge laugh over this.

I'm laughing so hard my stomach hurts. This joke is SO BAD I can't believe someone at Microsoft had the balls to do such a stupid thing. Instead of focusing on writing better software and OS, they waste their time with "education" which has never been their purpose.

I'd like to know why Microsoft is targeting the kids like this instead of speaking directly to the parents. I would be pissed off as a parent if my child was brainwashed by such Nazi propaganda. Yes, I said Nazi and I meant it, it reminds me of the good ol' "Tell us where your Jews are and we'll give you free Microsoft Windows XP copies!"

Anyway, I hope the parents understand what this thing really is...

Re:I'm speechless.

[torpor]

This joke is SO BAD I can't believe someone at Microsoft had the balls to do such a stupid thing.

its really sad, to be frank. it belies a condition in society where extremely degraded values have become 'the norm'.

whatever marketing genius came up with this idea, clearly doesn't read enough literature .. doubleplusungood.

Re:I'm speechless.

[h4rm0ny]

Why not join them?

(a) Because there are pleasures to be had even in making their lives difficult. You can't always stop people treading on you, but you can hurt their foot.

(b) Sometimes the impossible can happen. Look at the Ghandis of the world. The will to rebel is latent in all the "mind-numbed" consumers - it just needs some ignition. If you wake up one person with your resistance, then there are two people resisting. And between you, you might encourage another two. And so on, and so forth. You don't have to destroy your opponent - you just have to make them give up.

Re:I'm speechless.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually I think it's quite ingenious: They ask what you would do if your creative ideas where "stolen" in the sense that someone else declared them his idea. That's subtly different from what the BSA, RIAA and MPAA are fighting. Nobody tries to pass MS Office as his own creation. But most people would agree that doing so would not be right. Even the most hardcore warez guys take attribution very seriously. So there, "intellectual property" intermingled with a topic that most people can agree on.

Copyrights, patents and other non-tangible goods are a complicated topic, but if you can dictate the terms which are used in the discussion, you've almost won, as far as the general public is concerned.

Oh, I hope you got the memo: It's "Thieves" now. "Pirates" have too much of a romantic connotation (thanks MPAA!).

Re:I'm speechless.

[NickFortune]

It's a logical progression. MS have already made progress pushing the idea of ideas as property. Now they just want to take it further and establish the notion that thinking about their ideas (presumably in an unlicenced manner) is theft.

The technology to tell what someone is thinking may never exist. All the same, the notion could prove useful to MS. Just let a generation grow up that will accept the notion of thoughts as property. You could "own" the ideas that constitute an operating system, say, and licence how people could and could not think them. And since discussion could be argued as proof of thought, they could make it a criminal offence to say unkind things about windows. Hey presto, no more bad reviews. Even private conversations would be actionable. Better yet, this being "theft", it would be a criminal case rather than a legal one.

Of course, we could expect this to require a certain amount of testing the courts, and probably some bespoke legislation. That shouldn't pose an insurmountable problem: imagine if politicians and political parties could licence ideas in their campaigns and dictate how they could be discussed.

All this is impossible at the moment: any such case would be laughed out of court. So the first step to changing that would be to raise a generation of kids that wouldn't laugh their socks off at the idea.

Obviously this is all IMHO. I am not privy to Microsoft long range strategy sessions, and, consistent as it would be with their usual business practices, it's entirely possible that they have never considered any such scenario.

Nevertheless, I'm not laughing.

Re:I'm speechless.

[inio]

I would be pissed off as a parent if my child was brainwashed by such Nazi propaganda. Yes, I said Nazi and I meant it

Unfortunately, this means you lose. Sorry.

Re:I'm speechless.

[Anonymous Coward]

EVERY web page made with FrontPage is a criticism of Microsoft...

Re:I'm speechless.

[ThePromenader]

There's something profoundly wrong with the idea that ideas can be property. Every time I want to go to the supermarket I don't get out my sketchpad and re-invent the wheel and the combustion motor - a car is ideas built on ideas built on generations of ideas!

What can protected is the material product that results from an idea - and that only against 'product cloning'. If you want to be the first in the game you have to be the first and you have to use your lead to remain the best if you want to stay there. So the market should be.

Which makes MS's attitude not only belligerant, but cowardly.

Re:I'm speechless.

[EpsCylonB]

it reminds me of the good ol' "Tell us where your Jews are and we'll give you free Microsoft Windows XP copies!"

I dodn't like microsoft but I don't remember them being involved in the holocaust.

Re:I'm speechless.

[masklinn]

No it doesn't, the Godwin Point is only reached when comparing to nazis ... your oponents in a discussion.
GP compared MS propaganda to nazi's, he didn't compare YOU (or pro-MS /. lurkers) to nazis, nor did he directly compare MS guys to nazis, his post therefore doesn't qualify as "reaching the godwin point".

The godwin point is reached when you're so out of arguments that you have to rely on the worst ad-hominem attacks (comparing your oponents to the worst kind of suckers ever) to try to make a point...

Re:I'm speechless.

[MoonBuggy]

I'm seriously wondering if we can turn this around on them. If I were to make a film and make it available publically under some form of open content license at the same time as submitting it to MS, would they be able to revoke the license on the copies already distributed? If they could, wouldn't it demonstrate that their own EULA's are just as easily revoked?

I love the title "Thought Thieves" though. I'm actually very tempted to make a film with that title now, although I don't know if it'd be approved of by the judges...

Re:I'm speechless.

[Radish03]

Yes, protecting material products...

Re:I'm speechless.

[FrereTuck]

Incorrectly put --> " No it doesn't, the Godwin Point is only reached when comparing to nazis ... your oponents in a discussion."

In the tradition of /. you didn't even read Godwin's law nor Mike Godwin's discussion on his own law did you http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.10/godwin.if_ pr.html/
?

Here's some enlightenment:
"I developed Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

AND

"I seeded Godwin's Law in any newsgroup or topic where I saw a gratuitous Nazi reference."

Hiel Herr!

Re:I'm speechless.

[stinky wizzleteats]

Haven't we reached the point where Godwin's law has become a self-defeating intellectual cliche in its own right? I find that I generally regard invoking Godwin in a debate to have the same effect as the situation the law intends to describe.

Re:I'm speechless.

[hunterx11]

And Xerox copied the NLS. I can't even remember who proposed the GUI, but it wasn't Engelbart. The nice thing about ideas is that everyone can gain from an idea.

Re:I'm speechless.

[snorklewacker]

> Saying "blah, blah, blah Godwin's Law blah blah blah" does not invalidate that view or end the useful discussion thread.

Oh, I would argue it ends the usefulness of the discussion thread. Or at least diminishes it greatly. But I'll invoke it here too -- the Nazi comparison is ludicrous. The 1984 comparisons are spot-on though, so let's run with it. I propose from now on, that we make a portamentau of Microsoft's new term: thoughttheft.

As in, "thoughttheft doubleplusungood".

But really, there's no need -- they're aiming this catchy term at school-age kids. They don't need our help in ridiculing empty slogans. Anyone remember "just say no"?

Lame.

[Seumas]

Thought Theives? So if I have an idea, never share it with anyone and never act on it or put it into any real tangible form and someone else has the same idea and acts on it, they're a thief and I'm a victim?

Talk about poorly labeled.

Oh well. Nothing surprises me anymore. I just hope kids remain indifferent enough that they don't buy into this. What's unfortunate is that I think - if they get to these kids early enough - they'll change their attitudes for life. Kind of like those school programs that convince second graders that their parents are evil if they smoke and that they're alcoholics if they have a glass of wine.

Re:Lame.

[Enoch Zembecowicz]

When I was in middle school they had us watch an "educational" video about software piracy called "Don't Copy that Floppy". It didn't work. Here it is: http://www.archive.org/details/dontcopythatfloppy

Re:Lame.

[Anonymous Coward]

I just hope kids remain indifferent enough that they don't buy into this. What's unfortunate is that I think - if they get to these kids early enough - they'll change their attitudes for life.

I had the same worry up until a few years ago. I was on a bus in London and some kids wanted to tag the bus. However, Britain being the camera society that it is they would have been caught on film.

Two of the girls staged an argument on the stairs and blocked the view of the camera. The boy sneaked up behind them and tagged the stairs. Even though it was an act of vandalism it revived my faith in human nature and I had a Jurassic Park like moment "life will always find a way". Yeah, I think the kids will be fine...

Re:Lame.

[Sam Nitzberg]

So if I have an idea, never share it with anyone and never act on it or put it into any real tangible form and someone else has the same idea and acts on it, they're a thief and I'm a victim?

Didn't Leibnitz and Newton come up with similar ideas and methods of calculation for Calculus - independently, and at about the same time? And they didn't steal....

Re:Lame.

[Mr Smidge]

So if I have an idea, never share it with anyone and never act on it or put it into any real tangible form and someone else has the same idea and acts on it, they're a thief and I'm a victim?

This really plays to the immature mentality of young children, who tend to be very selfish. Imagine a child finds a marble (or something children like) on the floor, and a friend asks if they can look at it; a young child's response would typically be "No! Mine mine mine!", wouldn't it?

I suppose that's because kids are all born like that, and through education do they become less selfish, and fit into what we call 'sophisticated society'.

By encouraging them to protect to the extremes what they think is theirs, even if it's an idea, they'll just stunt a kid's ability to open up and share.

A great sign of selflessness is being willing to share, and do things for other people if it doesn't necessarily benefit you.

At one end of the spectrum, we have those selfish bastards, who want nothing but personal embellishment (and usually tons of money just for themself). These people, we see as greedy and immature. At the other end, we have those people who are entirely selfless and don't care too much about themselves, and are willing to go out of their way to help other people. We see these people as idealistic, and prone to being walked all over by others.

We should teach kids the balance between these ends of the spectrum, not shifting them towards the selfish bastard end with corporate mentality. Corporate mentality and propaganda SHOULD NOT be used to against children in schools. Absolutely disgusting.

Re:Lame.

[danila]

This is a lose-lose situation. I don't like either young vandals or police states. I'd rather have a society where people were happy, creative, intelligent and honest and where the idea of a surveillance camera was completely alien and ridiculous to everyone.

Furthermore, you should realise that a police state is interested in silencing the dissenters, not vandals. The NYC police would rather have the whole city vandalized by illiterate morons with "FUCK" and "KILL NIGGERS" sigs or pointless graffiti than have someone use his bike to print anti-Bush messages on the sidewalks.

Similarly, the proles in 1984 had certain freedoms precisely because they were harmless and could not use these freedoms for anything.

Right now the CCTV cameras in London may not intended to stop crime, but when they are used to stop free thought, free meetings and free expression, gangs and vandals will probably be the last on the minds of the government.

This just in...

[deminisma]

No-one wants to steal Microsoft's idea for a "Thought Thieves" competition.

Contest over

[hyrdra]

Didn't Bill steal most of his ideas from other people?

I don't know, this whole thing is just bizzare.

Re:Contest over

[ahunter]

No, Steve, I think its more like we both have a rich neighbor named Xerox, and you broke in to steal the TV set, and you found out I'd been there first, and you said. "Hey that's no fair! I wanted to steal the TV set!"

-- Bill Gates talking about Steve Jobs and the GUI

Re:Contest over

[ChuyMatt]

um... not really.

Apple paid to be "inspired" by the xerox GUI

conclusion to every kid's entry

[Demoknight]

should include "unless you're like microsoft or something and you just basically steal other people's ideas and profit exponentially from them... then i wouldn't mind if one or two people below poverty level stole my IP." ;)

Some advice

[Renegade Lisp]

Start earlier, Microsoft. You won't be able to make somebody aged 14-17 think something that he would not naturally think. Especially when your method has indoctrination so obviously written all over it.

So start earlier. I recommend early childhood, age 4-6. I recommend showing movies to those kids where "thought thieves" are evil, dark figures that, preferably, linger under kids' beds. You'll make very powerful subconscious fears your ally that way.

Alternatively, start later. Most teenagers and students will really like the idea of sharing thoughts, and software, and music, and they will only part with it when they enter business life and get a chance to make money themselves by stopping to share. I recommend offering every potential free software/open source developer a large amount of money if they license their stuff to you, exclusively. If that doesn't work, offer them a job at Microsoft, and pay them well. Very well. You might be able to stem the tide that way.

But seriously, I don't think you will. There have always been developments in history that were so natural and unstoppable that it made those who tried to stop them extremely funny to look at. You're in the process of becoming such a comic figure, Microsoft.

Re:Some advice

[Seumas]

I don't know... in America, a shocking percentage of highschool students think free speech goes too far and that the government should have to "okay" everything that is reported in the press and that people have too much free speech.

I would say the school system has already done half of the job for Microsoft.

Re:Some advice

[Motherfucking Shit]

Who are you quoting? And if you can name a source for your "statistic" who funded the poll and for what purpose? I am skeptical of most polls because their objective isn't always stated up front, their samples of the population are too small, and the questions can sometimes be misleading.

It's not like it's particularly difficult to find it yourself.

How about this, "One in three U.S. high school students say the press ought to be more restricted, and even more say the government should approve newspaper stories before readers see them, according to a survey being released today." 112,003 high school students were surveyed, that doesn't seem like too small a population to me.

Re:Some advice

[Seumas]

Um... Do a google search. Name a newspaper or a news site - from drudge and slashdot to msnbc and indymedia and usatoday, they've all reported it this year. Not sure how you could have possibly missed that?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2005-01-30- students-press_x.htm


One in three U.S. high school students say the press ought to be more restricted, and even more say the government should approve newspaper stories before readers see them, according to a survey being released today.

The survey of 112,003 students finds that 36% believe newspapers should get "government approval" of stories before publishing; 51% say they should be able to publish freely; 13% have no opinion.

Asked whether the press enjoys "too much freedom," not enough or about the right amount, 32% say "too much," and 37% say it has the right amount. Ten percent say it has too little.

The survey of First Amendment rights was commissioned by the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation and conducted last spring by the University of Connecticut. It also questioned 327 principals and 7,889 teachers.

Re:Some advice

[Anonymous Coward]

This news just approved: 1 in 3 high school students are retards. More on those Epsilon Semi-Morons after this..

Re:Some advice

[h4rm0ny]

I think that it's very likely a large number of those students were simply ignorant. When asked whether they support X or Y and they don't know much about either, then you'll get a lot saying Y just because they want to answer something. It'll be based on snippets of debate picked up from others, vague reactions to current news stories and confusion of issues (e.g. invasion of privacy of public figures, exposure of government agents, etcetera). I'm not saying that the ignorance is not a huge problem, in some ways it is worse, but I don't think many of these students are out there clamouring for government censoship.

I could be wrong, but it's worth thinking what the survey might be telling us.

Re:Some advice

[Motherfucking Shit]

We all know that teachers like to pass-the-buck, but that's ridiculous. If four hours of television destroys all that your eight hours of class time imparts on a child, then you're a crappy teacher, district or administration.

I don't know where you live, but around here, high school teachers (that is, those who would be teaching 14-17 year olds) don't get eight hours of class time a week, let alone every day. Four hours of television a day can easily counteract what's being taught to the student one hour a day, five days a week.

Say you spend an hour talking about the tenets of free speech, and how the freedom to criticize elected officials is guaranteed by the Constitution. Then the student goes home and watches an hour of TV news, pumping fear-stories about "There is a website publishing pictures that could help terrorists attack us!" (cryptome.org) and "One website claims that the Microsoft software you use could be insecure and get you infected with a virus! What?! These people must be crazy!" (slashdot.org).

Maybe they run a story about how a group of people dared - dared, since questioning the government is now officially unAmerican - to confront Republican Senator Bill Frist while he was parked illegally, buying shoes next to a known Democratic lobbying organization's headquarters. And it's the protestors who are being criticized, nevermind the fact that the Senator is parked illegally, or that he chose to shop right next to his opponents' HQ. No, the story is that "poor Bill Frist got protested." Damned "liberal" media again!

Or they show video footage of people in a "Free Speech Zone," with a subtle comment about how those protestors are really are getting riled up, maybe they're violent, thank God they're caged up inside the chain-link fence of the "Free Speech Zone." And that video clip of people in a "Free Speech Zone" negates what you tried to impart to your students, the fact that the entire United States of America is a free speech zone, that the term "Free Speech Zone" didn't come about until the Bush administration, and that you don't necessarily need a permit to assemble peaceably.

Perspectives can be altered. Easily. Especially in younger minds. I hope that by age 17, most Americans have developed enough critical thinking skills to make their own determinations, but at 14, I'd bet that most teens base their decisions upon what their parents say and what they've learned to be the "popular opinion." And popular opinions don't come from the History Teacher.

I'm not a teacher by profession (though I'm happy to impart knowledge about any topic with which I'm familiar, anytime, to anyone, of any age) - I don't have it in me to do that day in and day out - but I have enormous amounts of respect for those who are.

Re:Some advice

[Hakubi_Washu]

As a soon-to-be history teacher in germany (certainly you'd agree that I should be going the extra mile to make sure my pupils "get it right", right?), I'd like to ask you a question:
How, exactly, does your infallible way of teaching kids critical thinking work? As fas as I've seen that is amongst the most difficult things to do, because it requires effort on the kids part and most kids, like most adults, shun that, if at all possible... So, please, enlighten me.
Or was that just wishful thinking? Then I'd have to say, STFU.

Re:Some advice

[cowscows]

I'd guess it has more to do with the fact that the media is entirely lame and worthless as a whole right now, and high school kids are smart enough to realize it as a bunch of fluff and barely-veiled advertisements. But next to that, they're still naive enough to believe that the government actually does things to make life better for us all. They think the government would pass laws and stuff to actually make media better.

Basically, I don't think they see the link between the decline of the media and the intermixing of strong corporations and governments. It's certainly a complex thing, and public schools don't teach you to challenge that sort of thing. I know when I was a child, I looked at the President of the United States with a certain adoration, even though I had no knowledge or even interest in any political issues. It's a bitter pill to swallow that even in this country with its fancy constitution and big elections, that we've filled the government with a bunch of selfish and corrupt jackasses.

The Thought Police!

[Xpilot]

Microsoft brings us Orwell's grand vision of 1984, but 21 years late. Slipped deadlines, that is so typical of Microsoft.

Screw a PDF

[caryw]

JPEG of the "Thought Thieves Poster"

Microsoft Thought Thieves? Aren't they the ones usually stealing ideas from other companies? I can't think of one innovative and original piece of software from Microsoft.
--
Fairfax Underground: Fairfax County, VA public message board

Re:Screw a PDF

[Monkelectric]

Hehehe yea, ask Stack how they feel about MS's thought theft :) (for those of you who don't remember, stack they made a HD compression program which MS ripped off 100%, drove them out of business, and then eventually lost a lawsuit to). Im sure someone else could mention at least 100 other companies they've done that to.

Re:Screw a PDF

[pomo monster]

Not to troll or anything, but I wonder if Stack could have used a software patent to prevent that?

Maybe there's something to this whole idea of patenting software after all. Sure, the way software patents are being used now is ridiculous, but that doesn't mean the entire concept is rotten.

Re:Screw a PDF

[archeopterix]

Microsoft Thought Thieves? Aren't they the ones usually stealing ideas from other companies?

Yes and no. Yes - they thrive by implementing ideas from other companies. No - because it's not stealing. The whole "intelectual property" (and now "thought thieves") crap is language bastardized to make you believe that thoughts can be owned just like material property.

This is how they want to legitimize the whole software and "business method" patents, extending copyrights into eternity and a whole bunch of other gimmicks invented to make benefit from "owning" thoughts.

Re:Screw a PDF

[kabz]

Dear Microsoft,

The style and typography of the Thought Thieves poster appears to have been completely copied from the typography used on the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy (UK edition) books.

Surely not much of an example to set.

Regards
Kabz

Re:Screw a PDF

[penix1]

"Not to troll or anything, but I wonder if Stack could have used a software patent to prevent that?"

They did have a patent. IIRC though it was for their hardware dongle that increased the amount of compression in some way. Don't know if it was on the software. In either event, having a patent still doesn't help you when large companies are able to hold it up for years while you hemorage funds to the blood sucking attornies.

"Maybe there's something to this whole idea of patenting software after all. Sure, the way software patents are being used now is ridiculous, but that doesn't mean the entire concept is rotten."

No, the whole concept IS rotten. It prevents anyone from even entering a market. Eventually everyone looses including Microsoft. I'm just waiting for the great patent wars...Popcorn anyone?

B.

Re:Screw a PDF

[cbelle13013]

I hate to bring it up, but Microsoft Bob was one innovative original piece of software.

Re:Screw a PDF

[swillden]

Just to clarify, I think what you meant to say was:

Yes and no. Yes - they thrive by implementing ideas from other companies, sometimes illegally. No - because it's not stealing.

I think it's worth pointing out that the other poster was right in that MS has been guilty of violating the same sorts of laws they're trying to convince kids to obey. And you're right in that they're further mischaracterizing that form of lawbreaking as something different, and worse. Dishonesty layered on hypocrisy.

Re:Screw a PDF

[timeOday]

I hate to bring it up, but Microsoft Bob was one innovative original piece of software.

...and probably the least "stolen" software of all time. Methinks we've stumbled upon a solution!

Adaptation

[imbezol]

What would I do?

I certainly wouldn't set up a competition involving the most imaginitive age group of 14-17, get them to give all their ideas to me, and then steal their rights to them.

Ah, to be a 14-17 year old British boy

[AEton]

(And not just for the 14-17 year old British girls).

I wonder if they'd like my entry "GPL Wars: Revenge of the Linksyth".

"Anakin, don't use that code! It's a trap!"

Re:Ah, to be a 14-17 year old British boy

[0x461FAB0BD7D2]

Actually there's an 18 and older category as well.

Re:Ah, to be a 14-17 year old British boy

[NetNifty]

I was thinking of:

Starts with black screen and text fades in reading "Imaging working for hundreds of hours..."

Screen fades to a coder sitting at a linux box with the sudo source code on the screen. Screen fades back to black.

Text fades in "Finally completing it". Screen fades to display of coder falling back with a sigh of relief. Screen fades to black.

Text fades in "Giving it away for Free".

Screen fades to linux machine running Firefox uploading sudo to sourceforge.

Screen fades to black and fades in text "15 years later... " Text fades out, fades in picture of Slashdot story of MS patenting sudo, story of MS trying to patent the internet again, story of Amazon one click patent. Screen fades to black, fades in text "Only to be told YOU could be sued because companies have "stolen" your idea and patented it." Screen fades to black and fades in text "No software patents. No monopolies on ideas."

Obligatory Orwell

[Anonymous Coward]

This is reminiscent of the brainwashing of kids in the Youth League in Orwell's 1984.

Can minors legally sign away their rights here in the UK? Seems a bit odd.

Hoorayyy!! Microsoft's finally using PDF!!

[Unhappy Windows User]

Now, if only they'd use PDF here, like every other company in the world, perhaps they would look more professional.

(Then again, when they can publish figures like these, who cares whether they look professional or not?)

It's not just Microsoft

[commodoresloat]

Apple has a similar campaign, but it's much less high profile.

Basically, they'll be including stickers on their new products that say "Don't Steal Thoughts."

Re:It's not just Microsoft

[SnowZero]

I thought it was:
Think Different;
Otherwise you're Stealing from us.

Newton

[Alioth]

"If I have seen so far, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants" -- Isaac Newton.

Microsoft only have got where they are today by standing on the shoulders of giants - people who were free with their (highly insightful) thoughts. Don't they remember this?

I shudder to think how progress would get held back if each individual jealously guarded their thoughts from each other. This campaign sends entirely the wrong message.

Re:Newton

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft only have got where they are today by standing on the shoulders of giants

Microsoft have gotten where they are today by climbing over the dead bodies of giants...

Re:Newton

[Halo1]

How about Shapiro ("slightly" more recently, and "somewhat" less known than Newton):

Today, most basic and applied researchers are effectively standing on top of a huge pyramid, not just on one set of shoulders. Of course, a pyramid can rise to far greater heights than could any one person, especially if the foundation is strong and broad. But what happens if, in order to scale the pyramid and place a new block on the top, a researcher must gain the permission of each person who previously placed a block in the pyramid, perhaps paying a royalty or tax to gain such permission? Would this system of intellectual property rights slow down the construction of the pyramid or limit its height?

Re:Newton

[Jesus_666]

I shudder to think how progress would get held back if each individual jealously guarded their thoughts from each other. This campaign sends entirely the wrong message.

Dear <appropriate representative>,
Microsoft's "Thought Thieves" campaign has convinced me that Microsoft has officially gone nuts and is a danger to progress and the society as a whole. I implore you to consider proposing governmental action against Microsoft while they still haven't indoctrinated our youth with their twisted opinions. The past has shown what propaganda is capable of and I fear for the future of the United States/the European Union/our country if Microsoft continues to mess with our children's heads.

Sincerely,
<name>

This was the first thing that came to my mind when I read about Microsoft's latest scheme.
Hmm, with a different wording it might be possible to drive German politicians into a frenzy over this. After all, we're still scared of the 1930's repeating; with subtle Nazi comparisons it might be possible to use German politicians to generate some bad publicity for our least favourite 300 pound gorilla.

Any German Slashdotters who want to mess with our beloved "representatives"' heads?

Re:Newton

[26199]

Google for that quote... true or not, there is a fairly widespread allegation that it was sarcastic, used in a letter to a bitter rival.

It's funny you should mention Newton's statement as being positive. I'm currently reading "Science: A History 1534-2001" by John Gribbin which suggests that his comment was in fact a barely disguised personal attack. It written in a letter to a scientific competitor, Robert Hooke, who had complained, correctly, that Newton was not giving him proper credit for his discoveries. Newton's response that he had seen further by "standing on the shoulders of Giants" was intended to rule out Hooke, who was famously short and hunchbacked. This is not 100% accepted history but it does seem to fit in with Newton's general demenour and behaviour.

Apparently other people said it before Newton if you want to quote someone who actually meant it.

Copyright Infringement Is Not Theft

[AntiCopyrightRadical]

The subject of the videos is supposed to be 'intellectual property theft'. But as I'm most here know, copying something or using a patented device with out a licence is not theft. It does not deprive anyone of anything.
No one can own an idea.
If you want to claim you own data, keep it private. Once you sell it to me, it is mine, to keep or to give away.
Copyright is immoral. If you tell me a story, you do not have the right to tell me that I cannot repeat it. Everyone has the right to say what is on their mind, regardless of who first thought of it. The mere act of creation does not give you any special rights to tell other people what they can do with their property.

This is part of a pattern of major IP holders brainwashing children,
there needs to be an alternative voice in the classroom.

Re:Copyright Infringement Is Not Theft

[Anonymous Coward]

Copyright is immoral.

Unless it's used to enforce the GPL, of course.

Re:Copyright Infringement Is Not Theft

[IgnoramusMaximus]

Unless it's used to enforce the GPL, of course.

I grow tired of repeating this to nimrods: GPL would not be needed if copyright didnt exist. It is a purely defensive construct, cleverly using the enemy's own most potent weapon by turning it against him. Abolish copyright and GPL will go away having done its work.

Here come the thought police

[FidelCatsro]

Currently in my mind i am breaking a hell of alot of copyright laws.
Songs that get stuck in my head , many many ideas , Songs i remember .
I occasionaly hum a tune thats most likely copyrighted .
I have an idea that may already be patent.

When you start labeling copyright/patent infringment Thought theft then your walking on a really dodgy line. it really does sound incredibly facist .
We should be teaching children to share and help others , instead we are teaching them suspicion and greed .. Way to go microsoft ..

I really hope alot of kids send MS vidios depicting facist states Abusing its citizens in some cyber punk future where your thoughts are monitored .
as it was the first thing that came to my mind when i heard thought thieves

Re:Here come the thought police

[01000011011101000111]

Better than that - for sheer irony's sake I hope at least a few hundred send in badly edited cuts of the old 1984 apple adverts ;)

They have some fucking nerve!

[tobybuk]

All the little companies the've tried to squash should enter this. This really is the elephant man calling the ugly duckling ugly.

Wow, that's pathetic

[twigles]

I seriously feel sorry for those guys. Oh, woops they're filthy rich, nevermind.

terms acceptable to Microsoft?

[alizard]

Here are some good ones:

• this may only be viewed on computers whose operating system conforms with the Free Software Foundation licenses.
• the intellectual property embodied in the submission may be used freely by Microsoft if only if images of Bill Gates and the image formerly displayed at www.goatse.cx are displayed side by side in a prominent place.
• Microsoft agrees to make all specifications of Office formats available to the public free of charge in usable form in perpetuity. Final determination of usability to be made by Linus Torvalds or any successor designated by him.
• Microsoft agrees that these terms override any terms of any "click-through" EULAs accompanying this submission.

Seems fair enough to me.

Microsoft Propaganda Art

[lousyd]

You think that's funny? Try this:
http://freetodd.org/MS-Poster.gif

This poster was stuck up all over my San Diego, California college campus.

Re:Microsoft Propaganda Art

[rpozz]

Yeah, we have something similar in the UK. It's a poster of some guy saying to his friends how much he saved on Office (it 'only' costs around 100 quid).

What really happens in a UK university is that someone with broadband downloads a torrent of it and gives copies to anyone who wants one. No student in their right mind would actually buy it - it's (still) too bloody expensive. I would imagine it's similar in the US.

Re:Microsoft Propaganda Art

[xenotrout]

gotta love how microsoft claims in that poster than FOSS is illegal

Even funnier, they also imply that their own MSDN AA is illegal, a program that allows some students to download their software completely free.

HEY! No fair!

[Harker]

I thought of that first!

H

Re:Hoax?

[Zakabog]

I have a feeling it's not

Screw another PDF (the first one)

[caryw]

HTML link for "finalists must agree to formally license all intellectual property rights in their film"

sorry to respond to my own post
but yeah, I really hate pdf for tiny stuff like this
--
Fairfax Underground: Fairfax County, VA public message board

Re:Screw another PDF (the first one)

[1u3hr]

but yeah, I really hate pdf for tiny stuff like this

They've got a jpeg thumbnail. The PDF is supposed to be for printing. Unfortunately, the PDF is just a jpeg image ; the line art and fonts are all rendered at fixed resolution, so they loss all the benefits of the PDF format (smooth scalable graphics and type). It's a little odd to see MS using PDF format, but at least they didn't put it a BMP.

Re:Screw another PDF (the first one)

[1u3hr]

What i really find odd is that the pdf files are compressed in some self extracting zip file executable.

Ar they much, if any, smaller? PDF has pretty good compression. I just zipped a few random PDFs and they were less than 1% smaller than the original. Possibly it's to fuck with non-Windows users, or Google which indexes PDFs on the web. But it does indicate a rapprochement with Adobe; also the new OTF font format, which combines Adobe's Type 1 and the MS/Apple Truetype. I've heard installing recent Adobe apps (Acrobat 7) requires IE to be present. All a bit disturbing.

Video submissions, eh?

[technos]

Everyone has bought a porn tape that was just too disgusting to watch. Or you know someone with a box full of hermaphrodite and scheisse-pron.

How about we steam the labels off all of those and mail em to Microsoft?

Re:Video submissions, eh?

[thesandtiger]

Don't forget to re-do the soundtrack:

Dwarf: "Kick me in the balls, whore, but don't you steal my IP!"

Donkey-loving gal: "Oh, yes, I love the taste of donkey cock, and I really love the idea of protecting the rights of software 'innovators'!"

Etc.

Re:Video submissions, eh?

[technos]

Naw. That would imply that that you gave some thought to making the $6/hr Microsoft intern want to puke his or her guts on the table.

However, blanking out the first portion of the tape till you get to a juicy bit might be a good idea. So they don't just turn it off when they see the opening title and credits..

art

[The Nipponese]

God damn, that is the weakest poster I have ever seen. With a monster budget like that, they could have at least hired a REAL graphic designer.

Just because that one in-house guy says he knows Photoshop, doesn't mean he knows good taste.

FIRED!

Haha

[t_allardyce]

Its funny because all the school kids will just log on to Kazaa right after this lesson...

Seriously you can't brainwash 14-17 year olds its too late by then, at this age they are already burning CDR's, smoking behind the wall and trying to use the colour laser to print fake ID's and &pound5 notes for the local off-license! Ah the good old days, when VCD's where as easy to come by as that slutty girl in your class, and everyone was discovering sharing, memories... Kids these days with their Napsters and Torrents, they have it easy!

If Microsoft seriously wants to brainwash then they're going to have to aim for the 8 year olds or lower. Do some classes where kids make macaroni and glitter pictures and then someone takes them and pretends they made them and then beats the kid to within an inch of their lives while playing Beethoven too loud, now that's brainwashing!

This just in...

[Statecraftsman]

John Cleese and Aardman productions to produce film for Microsoft's Thought Theives competition. Rumour has it the film shows clay versions of Microsoft Software Developers talking about what it would be like to code free software.

In other news..

[Gentlewhisper]

Tony Blair announces that 1000 teenage thought criminals have been rounded up for thought crimes. They will be re-educated at the Ministry of Love and given a chance to repent for their crimes through death.

In further other news, Bill Gates has announced that Linux is unexist. Purge all memory of "Linux" from your brains now to prevent being labelled a thought criminal!

Re:In other news..

[Beardydog]

Mod parent double plus good!

Re:In other news..

[alphakappa]

Seriously, I can't believe they ended up using the term 'thought thieves' even though any thought-crime is strongly associated with '1984'. What better way to reinforce the big brother image. Whoever thought this thing up deserves a mention in the annals of great PR history!

Re:In other news..

[Kierthos]

Why wouldn't they have? It's one of the best early Van Halen albums.

Kierthos

Re:In other news..

[swillden]

Do you really believe most teenagers have even heard of 1984?

Many of them will have studied it in school, and those who haven't will likely learn of it, and perhaps read it, later. In college, for example.

I wonder which kids will see the connection most powerfully: Those who read 1984 before seeing the campaign, or those who read it after.

Re:In other news..

[ggvaidya]

They have done this sort of thing before. Microsoft and irony go together, somehow ...

Irony

[sfcat]

What if someone made a film about how the very idea of this contest is "stolen" from Orwell's 1984. Then showed goose-stepping soldiers dragging Bill off to a reeducation camp.

All I can say is wow. Considering MS is the biggest stealer of ideas in history, the multiple levels of irony in this article make that Alanis Morissette song (or more precisely the fact that the song isn't ironic at all) pale in comparison. This can't be real. Would Microsoft be this dumb? Nah, I don't believe it. Good hoax though...

Re:Irony

[reverse flow reactor]

Here's another idea for a film. Turn the contest around and show how people benefit from the sharing of ideas.

Setting: prehistoric man, living in a cave. Gork has the idea of rubbing two sticks together to make a fire. He finds that fire is indeed warm, and it is very comfortable to sit near it. The fire keeps him warm during the cold night.

Grog is very jealous of Gork's fire, and steals one of the burning branches while Gork is not looking, so that he can have his own fire. He carefully takes the branch to his cave, and makes his own fire. Ironically, Gork's fire keeps burning...

Grog enjoys his new fire, and soon realises that it is also very good for preparing food. Grog roasts himself a good meal. Grok is enticed by the new smells, and cones to check it out. He sees Grog also has a fire.

Should he be furious and sue for patent infringement??? It took him a lot of work and time to figure out the proper way to rub two sticks together to make the fire. No, Grok tries the food and likes the roasting idea as well. He stays awhile and learns what Grog has been doing. Pretty soon, Grok is enjoying his own home-cooked meals by his warm fire, having benefited from Grog building on his idea. Both are happier and warmer because of the fire. Both have learned something new from each other, and both are better off for the sharing of ideas.

fastforward a generation, and they are swapping BBQ recipies..

--
Please steal this idea and work with it. And then share it with everyone else.

Re:Irony

[desplesda]

the multiple levels of irony in this article make that Alanis Morissette song (or more precisely the fact that the song isn't ironic at all) pale in comparison.

Nobody gets it! The song is entirely ironic, because there's no irony in it at all, but it's ostensibly about irony!

The wit and intelligence of Ms Morissette astounds me daily.

Re:Irony

[Halo1]

All I can say is wow. Considering MS is the biggest stealer of ideas in history

And so you are doing exactly what they want: spread the fallacy that "ideas" or "thoughts" can be "stolen". Even most IPR law scholars agree that "intellectual property" is something entirely different from physical property and that you can't "steal" it.

The natural rights doctrine (I "made" it so it's all mine and mine alone) does not hold in the world of immaterial creations. It is introduced by creating artificial scarcity using laws, which should only apply in cases where they have overall positive effects.

With their "How would you feel if ..." oneliners, Microsoft reaches out to the inner desire of many people to be able to get rich simply by being the first to think of something. It can however easily be reversed: "How would you feel if you worked 2 years on a computer program completely on your own and when you tried to sell it, all sorts of people would start asking money from you even though all they did was pay a patent lawyer to file some documents describing ideas they once had?"

Here is roughly what it sounds like in german

[FidelCatsro]

"Microsoft ruft alle BRITISCHEN kinder vom 14-17 an, um seine Gedankendiebkonkurrenz einzutragen.
Erinnern Sie sich an Zicklein, finalists muß damit einverstanden SEIN, alle Rechte am geistigen Eigentum in ihrem Film auf den Bezeichnungen formal zu genehmigen, die für Microsoft annehmbar sind.
Und vergessen Sie nicht, Ihr freies Gedankendiebplakat zu runter-laden! Microsoft in errichness 2005 JAWHOL",

Sounds alot scaryer ;)

Re:Here is roughly what it sounds like in german

[slavemowgli]

Erinnern Sie sich an Zicklein [...]

"Remember the little goats"?

Turf War

[Luke Psywalker]

The school yard is Microsoft's patch. They have been dealing their product to minors in an attempt to get them hooked for life for some time now. They won the last turf war and things have been settled for a while now, but there are some new kids on the block and Microdick is going for the hit.

This is going to get ugly.

The real thought thieves

[rollingcalf]

Microsoft for stealing the kids' thoughts by having them give up their intellectual property to Microsoft.

it's *not* illegal to 'steal' thoughts

[mojoNYC]

Ideas are most definitely *not* 'protected' (see Lawrence Lessig's Free Culture)--it's only the tangible output of those thoughts.

This is the M.O. of slimy corporations and politicians everywhere--they are basically lying to people through their gross simplification of complex issues (see 'pirates are bad'), misuse of language (this competition), and outright lying (too many examples to mention).

What's next? 'Find the hidden pirate treasure on your parent's computer? '

Re:it's *not* illegal to 'steal' thoughts

[Handpaper]

'Find the hidden pirate treasure on your parent's computer? '

My kids know there is 'pirate treasure' aka copyright infringing material on my PC. Why? Because they asked for it, and I 'obtained' it.
'Daddy, can you download $LATEST_CHEESY_KIDS_MOVIE for us please?'
'OK, give me a few days'

Three days later

'Here you go, boys - enjoy.'
'Thanks, dad - hey, is Spiderman 3 out yet?'
'Give us a chance, they haven't finished filming it yet!'

These children are seven and five years old. After another seven years of unfettered access to damn near anything they want, how receptive to ideas of IP 'ownership' do you think they will be?

Budget

[The Nipponese]

Ok, can someone explain to me how "kids" are suppose to make a "film" on IP rights with legally purchased software? As a small-time film maker, I can attest to the fact that creative software is EX-FUCKING-PENSIVE (not to mention, most enteries will probably be made on a Mac). It's all a little counter-productive to me.

Re:Budget

[JasonBee]

Ummmmm...iMovie?

To quote Orwell's 1984:

[todu]

This made me think about the childrens thought police games and later real life actions:

"A handsome, tough-looking boy of nine had popped up from behind the table and was menacing him with a toy automatic pistol, while his small sister, about two years younger, made the same gesture with a fragment of wood. Both of them were dressed in the blue shorts, grey shirts, and red neckerchiefs which were the uniform of the Spies. Winston raised his hands above his head, but with an uneasy feeling, so vicious was the boy's demeanour, that it was not altogether a game.

'You're a traitor!' yelled the boy. 'You're a thought- criminal! You're a Eurasian spy! I'll shoot you, I'll vaporize you, I'll send you to the salt mines!'

Suddenly they were both leaping round him, shouting 'Traitor!' and 'Thought-criminal!' the little girl imitating her brother in every movement. It was somehow slightly frightening, like the gambolling of tiger cubs which will soon grow up into man-eaters. There was a sort of calculating ferocity in the boy's eye, a quite evident desire to hit or kick Winston and a consciousness of being very nearly big enough to do so. It was a good job it was not a real pistol he was holding, Winston thought."

...

"With those children, he thought, that wretched woman must lead a life of terror. Another year, two years, and they would be watching her night and day for symptoms of unorthodoxy. Nearly all children nowadays were horrible. What was worst of all was that by means of such organizations as the Spies they were systematically turned into ungovernable little savages, and yet this produced in them no tendency whatever to rebel against the discipline of the Party. On the contrary, they adored the Party and everything connected with it. The songs, the processions, the banners, the hiking, the drilling with dummy rifles, the yelling of slogans, the worship of Big Brother -- it was all a sort of glorious game to them. All their ferocity was turned outwards, against the enemies of the State, against foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals. It was almost normal for people over thirty to be frightened of their own children. And with good reason, for hardly a week passed in which The Times did not carry a paragraph describing how some eavesdropping little sneak -- 'child hero' was the phrase generally used -- had overheard some compromising remark and denounced its parents to the Thought Police."

It's good that I don't have children..

Re:To quote Orwell's 1984:

[MemoryDragon]

Unfortunately that idea comes directly from Sovjet Russia and the german Hitler jugend. Actually that indeed does work to some degree, but only to some, many people who were in the HJ or similar Sovjet organizations still became nice and critical adults during adulthood, because there is always the factor that only a certain percentage of people are sheep.

SWEET!

[Greyfox]

I bet the person who suggested this was a disgruntled employee with a malicious sense of irony and a very low opinion of how well read his managers are. Kudos to him for getting Microsoft to quote Orwell!

Moral rights

[badfish99]

The license agreement in the article says that competitors must license all their IP rights and also "waive all moral rights".
My understanding of this last phrase is that they give up their right under UK law to be named as the author of the film. So Microsoft could pass off the film as their own production, without mentioning the real author.
Of course it's not theft if you sign your rights away voluntarily.

Alternative contest

[HenrikOxUK]

Someone should set up an alternative contest to make a film about why sharing ideas is a good thing. Even if this turns out to be a hoax, this positive competition would be cool anyway.

£2000 is not that much, we can match that :) If someone is willing to do the org work, I'd be happy to put up the £2000 (donations might increase that sum and/or reduce my share). The project would need a good website and would need to have the same deadline as the MSFT competition (July 1st). Ideally the effort should tie in with the Creative Commons group UK and possibly Software Freedom Day.

OK, I've opened my big mouth now. Anyone else?

about that free copy...

[DarkTempes]

I keep a Jew in the room over.
in fact he pays half the rent.

so where's my free Windows XP copy eh?

Re:Don't bash them on this one

[inode_buddha]

In the USA anyway, minors aren't allowed to enter into aything legally binding. If they do, it is considered nulll and void. So much for the EULA and movie rights for this "Thought Thief" thing!

That explains it...

[OwlWhacker]

This is even richer than when the MS Front Page license including a clause forbidding the use of Front Page to make web pages critical of Microsoft.

Ah!

So that's why all the anti-Microsoft sites seem to display correctly in Firefox.

Throwing Stones

[donnacha]

From Microsoft's poster:

"So how would you feel if you saw your hard work being passed off as the property of someone else?"

Gee, I don't know, maybe you could ask the guys who wrote the BSD stack?

This whole thing is rather hilarious...

[Gordo_1]

But is the Nazi parallel really that strong? To my knowledge, Microsoft hasn't been exterminating people.

I think Godwin had something to say about this... um, oh nevermind.

Re:This whole thing is rather hilarious...

[mikael]

But they have been exterminating startup companies that try to compete against their products.

Re:This whole thing is rather hilarious...

[NineNine]

By having someone placed in a jail cell for thinking, they are effectively exterminating their thoughts.

Who has Microsoft done this to?

Who si the thought thief here?

[alexhard]

From the website:
Thought Thieves is about people stealing and profiting from your creation or innovation. Think about it: how would you feel if you saw your hard work being passed off as the property of someone else? What would you do?

ALSO from the website:
I will formally licence, on terms acceptable to Microsoft, all intellectual property rights
in my film and agree to waive all moral rights in relation to my film if requested to do
so.

I mean.....WTF!

Thought Stealing

[Mother Sha Boo Boo]

I don't think anyone would like to steal my thoughts. I would like to get rid of them myself...

Re:Who is the thought thief here?

[the bluebrain]

Yes (me too), that's what jumped at me as well.

What can be said in their defense is that at least they had the decency to put the two paragraphs on different documents, even if each document is a maximum 2 pages long. So considering the MS lawyers were performing "constrained writing" (I mean hey, they're trying to bind minors into a legal contract, so they have to keep it simple), they achieved a maximum of educational value in a very small package.

To wit: I predict that the winner and the two runners-up will regret having signed the contract, and will thus learn a valuable lession. The lession is: if you made the movie for money, then you have just been screwed over, because you signed away your money-making rights. If you made your movie for art, then you have just been screwed over, because you signed away your distribution rights. And, especially in the latter case, you would have been leaps better off with an OSS / creative commons sort of thing.

And that, I call a very valuable lession.

/Thank you Microsoft! May I have another one, please?! *tHwAcK*

Bounties Legal Confusion

[knubee]

Many of the comments so far on this story have drawn the parallels to Orwell, etc. -- and the posts have been witty or outraged.

There is another aspect of this particular "bounty hunting" campaigne that is fascinating, disturbing, and possibly original. Namely, it is deliberately rewarding and encouraging people to MISUNDERSTAND the law about copyright, patent, and "ideas."

Would such bounties be acceptable if they encouraged other kinds of legal misunderstandings? For example, many people may erroneously believe "it is legal for me to download anything that appears on the Internet." Imagine if some large company provided similar bounties for films like this:

"Stop Illegal Harassment! Illegal harassment is when some person or company threatens you to stop doing something, even when you are doing nothing wrong. It sounds like science fiction, but it happens all the time. Some people and companies are contacting individuals who download things on the Internet and threatening them. How would you feel if your brother gave you a copy of the book he just finished reading -- and the publisher came and threatened you for 'stealing' the book? What would you do? We want to know."

Yes, the example above glides easily between different issues and concepts. But so does the Microsoft announcement, as it talks about "stealing thoughts" one moment -- and then asks how you would feel if people stole the *results* of thought, work, and effort.

In either case, it is frightening that it is so easy to start the equivalent of a vigilante campaigne that plays on -- and encourages -- people's confusion about the law. Even more frightening is that such campaignes may be perfectly legal.

Here is an idea for an entry to the competition

[perrin]

A small group of freedom-loving youth come together to write a very helpful free software program that helps people around the world solve some problem they have, and then an evil corporate entity comes along with an overbroad software patent, files a lawsuit and takes ownership of the program as damages. I wonder how they would deal with such a film ;-)

APRIL FOOLS!

[Kyoushu]

Oh wait....shit....they're serious?

MS Rep: Hey kids, what do you need to stop thought theives? Thats right! Thought police!

Kids: Yay!

And they ca be called ...

[KwKSilver]

The Junior Anti-Thoughtcrime League or maybe just Thinkpoljugend? How about BSA (Bill's SturmAbteilung) Jugend?

Pickup your child's Thought Thieves Pod today

[scupper]

This campaign - How frightening, like invasion of the thought snatchers.

A farm truck pulls up outside of your kid's school, chock full of football size pods, and school administrators hand them out to the little children. Then, they walk them into the gymnasium, where they are told to lie down with their pod for a nap.

when they wake up, they're obedient, EULA-ized little drones, and in the podding process, have divulged their little grade school p2p supernodes.

Re:Don't bash them on this one

[tomhudson]

The application form requires the (legally binding) signature of a parent or guardian.

... like some 14-to-17-year-old isn't able to fake THAT - I mean, they do it all the time for notes so they can skip school. It's not like they're Arnold Horschack.

At least the Brits now have a place to send all your coasters and AOL CDs - collect:

4. Send your film on either CD or DVD together with your completed entry form to the following address:

Microsoft Thought Thieves Competition
Thames Valley Park
Reading
Berkshire RG6 1WG

Please make sure your DVD/CD is clearly labelled with your name, address and phone number.

Remember, your entry needs to reach us by or on the closing date - Friday 1st July 2005.

You would be thoughtless.

[crovira]

If a futile effort of Microsoft's part.

It leads to cebreral pralysis.

Its is not sustainable.

It is not implementable.

It is not workable.

The entire civilization, the species, possibly all life, is based on sharing.

The "commons" form of intellectual sharing merely asks that you acknowledge the sources of your knowledge. That is called being a knowledgable and erudite human being.

Microsofts' form of 'pay for use' of an idea IMMEDIATLY put at any one who is not as 'rich' as a Bill Gates at a disadvatage.

Not only are they incapable of 'paying the tithe' but, due to the transfer of intellectual property outside its natural boundaries, they may end up not even knowing who to pay it to.

I would imagine that the 'concept' of "gravity" as a force of nature is copyrightable. I would also imagine that the concept that "The Earth Sucks" is also copyrightable.

That means that I would stand to make some money every time something tipped over.

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to collect, am I still owed?

Of course the ability to use speech is owed to the original speakers but since they we'ren't as smart as Microsoft, they aren't going to collect a single dollar from the idea.

Re:Sort of relevant, but wrong

[ahunter]

You know, I intended this to be read in the context of what Bill was saying about Microsoft rather than what he was saying about Apple. 'stole the TV' is a pretty strong metaphor for thought theft.

Bill Gates is pretty much admitting to 'Thought Theft' there: Microsoft wouldn't even have their flagship product line if they hadn't taken the idea of the GUI from Xerox and Apple.

I guess these days, Microsoft is Xerox, and some darn kids are nicking their TV now.

Re:MOD STORY +5 Iron

[Ed Avis]

Not directly related, but this reminds me of RMS's story The Right To Read for some reason.

Re:Don't bash them on this one

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember children, there's only one legal way to take intellectual property; through the fine print.

This was in yesterday's NTK...

[cortana]

... article reproduced here from yesterday's NTK:

The 1400-word terms and conditions for MSN.CO.UK's strong-IP
"Thought Thieves" film competition are quite the read, even if
you're not the 14-17 year-old they're intended to be read and
understood by and complied with in their therein bywhich
entirety. Entries must be the "sole work and creation of the
person submitting the film" (no sharing your precious
intellectual property fluids with your cameraman, Mr Auteur);
must not "use third party intellectual property rights" (no
furniture, no architecture, only clouds as background);

...

http://www.the-future-of-ideas.com/excerpts/index. shtm - Lessig's book starts at the exact point the T&C gets ridiculous

"sounds like science fiction"

[Dr. Evil]

Because the idea was lifted from 1984!

What MicroSoft is looking for....

[3seas]

... is of course "how to better get away with stealing the works of others".

Its widely accepted by those in the know that young people are more daring and creative and as such old Bill Gates is of course looking for solutions regarding intellectual property and software patents.

Its a dual edge sword, they want both to know how to better get away with the works of others while also wanting to better know how to protect what they have stolen, from other taking it back.

They are looking for excuses to continue their criminal activity...

AND WE ALL KNOW THAT!!

There is NO indication MS is ever going to change their criminal anti-competitive behavor.

That is a wiorth while thing to keep in mind with anything MS does..... including this...

What you said is so true...

[Spy der Mann]

How can we ever compare common thievery with institutional thievery? Abuse of power? Please.

Anyway, I used to be the kind of person who hated SW piracy to death (to name some "evil thievery" thing) - until i met REALLY poor people. And this was in 92, Linux was simply out of the radar. I realized that sometimes the law was evil.

People grow, kids stop being naive. When they mature, they'll realize not everything's black and white.

Re:What you said is so true...

[Blakey Rat]

What does being poor have to do with anything? So if people are poor, they should be able to steal cars and gas to get to work? Or, and if people are poor, they should be able to shoplift from stores because, you know, they're so poor!

Seriously, what are you, a communist? Yeah, it's a pity that some people are poor, but our society in the US is pretty-well constructed.

And guess what? Our laws are fair, to both the rich and the poor. There are very few double-standards.

Re:What you said is so true...

[timeOday]

And guess what? Our laws are fair, to both the rich and the poor. There are very few double-standards.

Haven't you noticed that "captains of industry" who cook the books to reap millions in income and expense accounts are seldom punished, while stealing a loaf of bread can land you in jail?

Haven't you noticed that slapping somebody will get you prosecuted, while starting a war on false pretenses and killing tens of thousands of people gets you re-elected?

Haven't you noticed that international corporations have no patriotism, but expect us to send our poor to fight and die protecting their resources and markets?

Haven't you noticed that rich industries write their own laws and buy Congressmen to rubber-stamp them?

Haven't you noticed how Microsoft openly flaunts the law by outspending and outwaiting the government prosecution until political conditions are more favorable? How they build a vast empire on the ideas of others and then pretend that re-using ideas is stealing?

Enough!!

[CausticPuppy]

Not Jewish holocaust, but certainly they've been involved in software product companies holocaust big time. (Symantec C++? Borland Office Suite? etc, etc...)

That is absolutely ridiculous, even for slashdot standards.
You are seriously comparing one of the most horrific events of the 20th century, the slaughter and torture of millions of men, women, and children, to the "death" of a god damn office suite?
Don't you think that this trivializes the real holocaust just a bit?

Re:Enough!!

[JadeNB]

How about damn near every holocaust museum which ignores those killed which weren't jewish? Or ignores those who put forth the effort to end the holocaust?

Sorry, I've studied history, and I have in-laws who were in those camps. The trivialization isn't from comparing it to an office suite.

(Another entry in the more-perspective-than-thou contest.) The biases you describe are both unfortunate and embedded, and they do constitute, to some extent, a trivialisation of the people you mention. However -- surely we can agree, however much we deplore this focus, that comparing the death of an office suite to the death of any people, Jewish or otherwise, is, in fact, trivialisation?

Re:Enough!!

[CherniyVolk]

You are seriously comparing one of the most horrific events of the 20th century, the slaughter and torture of millions of men, women, and children, to the "death" of a god damn office suite?
Don't you think that this trivializes the real holocaust just a bit?

The holocaust, was logically made trivial by it's own zealot like insistance in media and social passing as to what evil and horror amounts to when compared to other attrocities at the very same time.

May I be the first to say:

Don't get angry when someone makes trivial remarks about the holocaust if you don't show the same typical ogligatory social comebacks with the following.

1) Stalin (Gulags)
Hitler only dreamed of killing as many people.
2) Churchill (Dresdon Germany)
Hitler could only dream of the cruelity. And, I don't give a damn what the Brits think about Churchill.
3) Vietnam (US killed just as many vietnamese, many of them innocent)
4) Po Pot
5) Ghengis Khan
6) Truman (Hiroshima/Nagasaki)

Hitler wasn't the worst. He wasn't even the worst in his time. Stalin was, by far. So, why don't you get all upset if someone jokes about the Russian Gulags? At least Hitler had a target and had enough sense to pick on someone else. And, stop acting as if there is some measure to define the barbarism and cruelity of any man, becuase frankly there isn't a group of people on this planet that isn't shamed by some part of their own history. Ask the Palestinians how they feel today!

Re:Don't bash them on this one

[tomhudson]

I hope i dont send in my slackware install disk by mistake

Didn't you hear? Microsoft says open-source software is VIRAL. If you send it in, it will CONTAMINATE all the entries, and nobody will win! Think of all the old koreans!

Schools

[Deliveranc3]

Actually I think that a lot of the current music crisis was sparked in the schools.

No seriously it happened before you can even remember.

Some child psychologist circa 1975 said they should STRESS sharing in kindergarten, we got programs where children were told to share toys and got less toys than kids, teachers stressed that lending toys when you weren't playing with them was good behavior and praised us for it.

Microsoft's initiative is indeed attacking the source, they're just too late.

Their next initiative: don't lend billy your toy truck when you're not using it and he'll buy it from you for big $ thus making god happy!

Plot to make a short film of

[sytxr]

"Microsoft starts a competition "MS Calls On Kids to Stop Thought Thieves" . Hundreds of kids spend creative effort and time to make up plots to market microsoft's intellectual property ideas and to develop them into finished movie clips. 1 of those kid wins 2000 pounds worth of audio- and video equipment. A dozen or more of them became finalists and signed the rights to their hard work away and didn't get anything in return. The other hundreds still have, for free, provided microsoft marketing with plentiful of ideas to further their own business' cause.* Stop those thought thieves!" This plot is hereby released into the public domain. Feel encouraged to use it if you like. * Wich cause includes working together with the big phonographic industry labels and mpaa, to lobby politicians to ever more skew copyright and other intellectual law away from the original idea of maximum public benefit towards maximum control and profit for the established big entertainment industry corporations. The extension of the duration of copyright is an example of this. It took mental wealth away from the general public which won't be able to freely use and distribute old works which their creators have long been paid for. Software Patents, which are monopoly rights on mathematic and logic and often trivial, are even worse in that they can block the independent creation and distribution of intellectual wealth. One reason microsoft is still reluctant to use them against OSS is, that doing so would likely destroy any chance that might still exist of getting them legislated into the EU.

Re:Zicklein == kid

[Shamashmuddamiq]

kid == a young goat
see dictionary.com

Subversion

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not give Microsoft exactly what they are asking for?

A little movie about a small company that comes out with some cool new technology, and wants to give it out for free because they feel it will better mankind. A few months after its out it is quite popular in its niche and they are doing well from their ideas, they get a letter from a big company "Letigisoft" saying they infringed on a software patent of theirs. Our heros don't have much money for a legal defense, so they scramble. They know they can't keep their product functional and remove the infringing bit, they can't charge license fees, or afford legal costs. Plus, the patent claims being made are obviously very questionable, but they don't have the legal resources to prove that. Any attempt to go about against "Letigisoft" burries them in paperwork, and onerous disclosure requests that expose all their company's ideas to Letigisoft. So they end up with no choice but the close up shop. A year later "Letigisoft" develops a similar product and charges a lot for it.

So do something like that with nice production values so the judges will have to watch it. Let it develop slowly, so at first you might not realize that its such a David getting crushed by Goliath sort of thing. Make them all confortable by giving them exactly what they want.

Big companies who want all this IP fascism have to realize that they need to be careful what they ask for, because it works both ways, and they just might get what they want.

I would agree - heres why

[emseabrown]

When I was in high school (5 years ago or so), I took sociology.

For a project we had to conduct a survey of 100 people.

My particular survey consisted of a page with symbols on them, with a space below for writing what they stood for.

Amongst others, included was the star of david, a pentagram, and a swastika.

There was a frightening amount of people who associated the star of david with satan, or the devil.

However, every single person associated the swastika with hitler or nazis.

Admittedly, it wasn't the most scientific test, and it was conducted in texas.

Draw your own conclusions.

Re:It's not stealing

[ShieldW0lf]

Yes and no. Yes - they thrive by implementing ideas from other companies. No - because it's not stealing. The whole "intellectual property" (and now "thought thieves") crap is language bastardized to make you believe that thoughts can be owned just like material property.

Of course it's not stealing. It's Thoughtcrime. Get with the program.

The boy who cried thief.

[planetfinder]

This has been a lifelong battle for Bill Gates. His war with the "free"software community and their bad attitude towards his stuff goes all the way back to his beginnings. His first or one of his first products was a BASIC interpreter. At the time there was a "free" interpreter called Tiny Basic and when Gates started selling his BASIC people started sharing their copies of his BASIC as though it deserved the same treatment as Tiny Basic. Bill got on the stump and accused a lot of people of being thieves. The "free" software community is a lifetime recurring lifetime nightmare for him. Can you picture him screaming in his sleep when IBM first announced support for Linux.

That is so...

[Kjella]

because there is always the factor that only a certain percentage of people are sheep.

...but the point is to make most well-trained sheep, and the rest too intimidated to take action. And those who are neither sheep nor intimidated, are either incapacitated by the government or an angry mob.

Kjella

Moral rights Waver

[yeba_ireland]

I think it needs to be pointed out explicitly that due to their release form microsoft are takening away the moral right of an author to be named as an author of a piece of work. http://www.msn.co.uk/img/en/en-gb/portal/specials/ thoughtthieves/14_form.pdf

I will formally licence, on terms acceptable to Microsoft, all intellectual property rights in my film and agree to waive all moral rights in relation to my film if requested to do so. I understand that if I do not complete the necessary documentation by the stated date, my entry will be disqualified from the competition.

Moral rights are defined witihin Article 6bis of the Berne Convention which protects attribution and integrity, stating:

Independently of the author's economic rights, and even after the transfer of the said rights, the author shall have the right to claim authorship of the work and to object to any distortion, mutilation or other modification of, or other derogatory action in relation to, the said work, which would be prejudicial to his honor or reputation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_rights

So Microsoft is asking this kids to give up your right to stop people from passing off their hard work as the property of someone else.This is the most hypocritically thing I have ever seen.

"Thought Thieves"

[scrwvwls]

If that isn't loaded language then I don't know what is. How is violating intellectual copyright all of a sudden tantamount to theft? If I remember correctly the definition of theft includes not only the obtainment of but the withholdment of property as well.

Obligatory, but....

[LittleGuy]

When thoughts are outlawed, only outlaws will think.