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The Scoop on the Xbox 360's Embedded OS?
An anonymous reader writes "When the Xbox 360 was launched two weeks ago amid much brouhaha over its custom-designed IBM PowerPC-based CPU with 3 symmetrical cores running at 3.2GHz each, WindowsForDevices.com wondered aloud, 'What OS runs inside the Xbox 360?' Now, the website thinks it has found the answer to its question. No, it's not Linux or BSD, nor a derivative of Longhorn or Windows CE."
Will this compromise hackability?
I for one am glad that /. has caught the MSM meme of rumor as news.
Please inform me when Roland Piquepaille gets a pentagon day pass.
I can go buy it in stores? I think you mean debuted.
They are making the PowerPC for the Xbox and the Cell for the new Playstation. It seems like they will be the real winner in the next round of game wars.
Madre de Dios! Es El Pollo Diablo! -- Captain Blondebeard
I think it's interesting because, if W2K is good enough for the 360, the latest and greatest console in the world, it's still good enough for everyone else.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
I was hoping it'd be something incredible and barely believable, like OS X or BeOS or Plan 9. But no, it's just a derivative of the original XBox OS. Weak. All that suspense for almost nothing. This story is worse than the ending of Citizen Kane, when "Rosebud" turned out to be his sled.
Another one bites the dust
Apple is NOT going to use intel x86 processors.
MS use PPC because it's better, in this case because of its lower heat output. they can do this because a console is designed mostly from scratch so components can be chosen on their qualities. with general computing, there's so much investment in x86 that a lot of people have to go with it whether its crap or not. just like many people have to go with Windows and Office even though they wouldn't consider touching it if they were working from a clean slate.
Then go buy a computer. This is about a video games console.
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
According to the article, the XBox OS was Windows 2000 with 95% of it removed or heavily altered. Now the XBox 360 will run the XBox OS heavily altered and ported to a new architecture. It hardly counts as Windows 2000 any more.
Thinkin' Lincoln - a web comic of presidential proportions
Well, since Microsoft used to sell WinNT for PowerPC (I used to have a few of the machines), and Win2K is just an update of WinNT, I presume it was pretty trivial for them to do this.
Roots? the machine is called "Xbox 360". 360? It would seem obvious that it should then run HASP. -and if you are unsure what this means then, you are young in the Force Luke...
- Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
The original XBox ran NT Embedded using the NT5 kernel. The new XBox runs NT Embedded using the NT5 kernel. Why is this a surprise?
It's Power PC? So? They had a Power PC NT kernel, for the CHRP motherboards, and most of the NT kernel is C and C++ and has to be portable at least to Alpha and Itanium, so building most of it for Power PC would be just a recompile. It's not like the software just vanished when the CHRP 'market' collapsed.
Didn't MS and billg say that stripping down the OS like this was impossible due to integration issues in a court of law? Did someone mislead the court? Or am I mistaken?
Anyway, this is just one more project branch to maintain. They now have Win2K, WinXP Home Edition, WinXP Pro, Win2003 server, WinCE and now another version for the XBox. For the server editions they need to support standard, enterprise and data center versions. And I think there is a version for the tablet PC, or is it just WinCE? No wonder MS wants cheaper code monkeys, keeping all the versions maintained and in synch has got to be a labor intensive nightmare.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
First off, it was pretty obvious that MS were going to use existing code on the original XBOX, if only because it was to all intents and puropses a PC. So at the time MS had the choice between using a Win 9X codebase, a CE codebase or NT/2000 codebase.
.NET or Avalon.
Windows 9X compatibility wasn't a requirement so could be ignored, CE was optimised for lower power CPUs and had been a less than a stellar success in the Dreamcast, whilst the NT/2000 codebase was optimised for higher end processors x86/PPC/MIPS/Alpha. It would seem that the choice was obvious. I dare say that MS stripped it down so that it's just the kernel of 2000 with thin wrappers of DirectX on top of the drivers together with a the minimum requirements of Win32 to keep DirectX and OpenGL running.
If we jump ahead to now, it seems obvious that MS would carry on using the same platform - just this time using the PPC branch of 2000, build new drivers and probably add more Win32 stuff to support the XNA architecture. If anything it seems unthinkable that they would use anything but an NT kernel.
I would be more interested to know if Win360 (I know this is Slashdot and Microsoft is only interesting when it's monopolising the cure for cancer etc - but just allow me to wonder a moment!) supports
$2B OR NOT $2B = $FF
Besides, just because MS doesn't sell a PowerPC version of XP, doesn't mean it doesn't exist inside the company. Similarly, Apple is rumored to have MacOS on an Intel box, just in case they ever need it. (And yes, those rumors long predate the recent Apple/Intel talks.)
it's a derivate of the os that's in xbox 1.
WHAT A SHOCK!
redundant yes but the whole article is stupid in this regard - I didn't even know we were having wiiild speculations into what os it has - like it would never matter to the end user who never sees it.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
An even better question is "If the XBox 360 runs on a powerPC-like CPU, will MSFT start selling W2K for the G5?" that'd be a fine how-do-you-do. "Dear Steve, we're releasing a fully compatible 'Windows 2k5 for OS X'. It's a trick we learned from IBM. gg.--Love, Bill"
> Who, except for /. crowd, expects Microsoft adopts Linux for one of their strategic pieces?
> Windows has the HAL that can absorb hardware differences, so there's no room for Linux and the
> like.
When the Mac came out in '84, M$ told the DOS heads that using their keyboard macros was so much faster than using a mouse that using the mouse and gui will never make it into mainstream business. They published statistics to prove it. Then Windows came out, and M$ told them how great the mouse and gui was, and they switched over in droves, their past biases completely removed from their memory banks.
When the web started taking off in the early '90s, M$ told the faithful that the web was a waste of time. It was run by Universities and will never be applicable to the modern business world. Hell, you had to jump through hoops to even get windows running TCP/IP back then. Then M$ came out with IE, and told everyone that it is the business app of the future. All of the windows heads developed mass amnesia, and told us all how M$ runs the internet.
History says that if M$ changed their stance and started pushing Linux, embrased and extended into proprietary hell, of course, then all the current Linux haters will tell you how great M$ Linux is, and forget they ever bashed it.
M$s main power is brainwashing. They coddle the non-free-thinking masses and give them a sense of community in their M$ness. They will blindly follow whatever Redmond tells them, as long as they have Linux and Apple or whoever to despise. Hated is the easiest way to bind any community.
jfs
The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.
this is perhaps the stupidest thing I've seen moderated insightful in several months. First, you clearly meant Windows 2k5 for PPC64 (aka G5). Secondly, Apple could hardly care as long as you purchased a g5 to run it. Hell, Apple sells Microsoft products in the Apple store right now (Office, VPC + Windows). Why would they care that you run Windows once they've sold you the hardware? Terrasoft, the makers of yellow dog linux, are authorized resellers of Apple hardware and MS would certainly be authorized too.
Apple is a HARDWARE company that also happens to make much better software than your run-of-the-mill monopoly. They don't give a damn what you do with it after you've paid them.
ps This rant is directed at the mods- as your comment would sit very well at +3 funny (maybe +4 on a slow day)
sigs are for fools and trolls. no signature is *always* appropriate. you should turn them off in your preferences.
Just because MS doesn't have a monopoly in every single market (yet), doesn't mean they don't have a monopoly. The problem with the xbox is that they are using the billions of dollars they made from their OS monopoly to push their way into other markets.
Cross financing is one thing, dumping below cost is another. It's illegal in the US but only if the govt is brave enough to go after a large donor.
evil is as evil does
And I explained clearly that MS has a monopoly in the PC OS market. Then I complained that they are using that to try to take over another market. I didn't say that's what makes them have a monopoly, I said they already have the monopoly, and are now abusing it to push into other markets.
And you certainly could say that about sony, if they had sold the playstation or ps2 for a loss, but they didn't
The reason there are OS wars is that the operating system in todays hardware creates a huge dependancy regarding third party solutions. Imagine if you had to decide for a kitchen outfit. (ie. stove, cupboards, fridge, etc.). And once you decided for Bosch, Siemens, whatever, everything in your kitchen - from the blender to the towel - also had to be from Siemens (or third parties claiming to be "Siemens compatbile"), or it wouldn't work. Blender manufacturers would have to produce several versions of their products, each for a different kitchen type. [-> drivers, hardware support] Your friend has his kitchen equipped by Bosch and you couldn't borrow his coffee machine / steak knife / dishwasher salt because it wouldn't work in your kitchen. Recipes you read in books would have to be specially tailored for your specific kitchen - if they weren't, you wouldn't be able to make them. [-> applications| Imagine you baking a cake and wanting to carry it over to your friend's house and being unable to eat it there because he has a different kitchen manufacturer. And if you do manage to eat it, it might taste slightly differently than at your place, or even be bitter, or might explode and damage your friend's kitchen! [proprietary document formats, reading with foreign applications, compatability] The choice of operating system can make you - your producitivy, your data, your work - a hostage of the OS manufacturer. That's why OS decisions are far more basic than, say, a descision for a car, or a piece of clothing. Yes, that does not apply to embedded systems directly. But indirectly, it does. Suppose that Company X had the IT department of a bank chain in its firm grip and the only ATMs that were "compatible" with the bank's databases were also from Company X. See? Jens
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Very good! Nice to see someone was paying attention ;) Yesthe 360t would run MFT ...or MVT if a DAT box is included on the machine (a 360/67 as vs a 360/65). I know what HASP is. $DMR0,'I USED IT A FAIR BIT' The Houston Automatic Spooling Program was an adjunct to the MFT operating system, but in the 370 world of MVS it became known as JES2 (Job Entry Sub-system ver 2) and was incorporated as a part of the opsys itself. I would have said "MFT" but thought HASP would better illustrate the point. BTW, I posted this twice because /. popped a error that the form was bad the first time and I thought it had not posted.
- Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
come on now. that will absolutely NOT dissuade modders entirely. i mean think of all the people who went out and bought xboxes just to destroy them in an effort to say... hmmm... run linux on it. every new release of any device capable of running an OS has dozens of hackers taking pics of its internals on the day of release. people like modding things, period. why? just because they can...
it will take them a while to circumvent future xbox live problems. but they will beat it in time. that is assured. as soon as MS releases new patches into the games there will be a whole community devoted to re-releasing via net some new code to allow them to play their games again.
your ancillary mod theory is out too in my opinion. MS has never been much into the hardware aspect of what they do. peripherals is another story. but i highly doubt MS would want to open that can of worms. they would never officially support it. that would mean they would have to work extra hardware support into their embedded OS. a console "works" because it has one known set of hardware. homogeneity is why consoles exist and havent been eaten up by the pc. all games have to just be able to play nice with that one set of hardware. if it works on one, it should work on the next. if hardware upgrades of that nature caught on it would be a console makers nightmare. not to mention all the kiddies [and broke parents] that would be mad first thing xmas morning to find out that halo 4 needs a new video card upgrade for their xbox.
so the question is... why would anyone want to mod the xbox in the first place since MS is now providing us with the functionality that we wanted in the first place. the answer is simple. because we can! if they say we cant do x, y, or z... we find a way to prove them wrong. its human [read: hacker] nature. some people just want the ability to run linux on this three processor system that should be faster than their current desktops. some people may want to change the layout/colors of their GUI [in their OWN way, not just using the choices MS presents us]. the faceplate idea is okay, but what about changing the sides? i want a completely black console... and they better sell blank faceplates.
some people may use future mods for warez. which of course is very illegal. i dont see that community going away anytime soon. but, on the legal loophole side of things where most modders live, some people may just want to play with their friends online during the weekdays without paying extra for it. seems legal enough to me since paying for a live subscription is just to cover the maintenance of the live servers. if you werent forced to use the live servers to play, you shouldnt have to pay. i mean if i had a lan party and no subscription to xbox live, would i have to wait until the weekend to play? no [well, i hope not], because im not using MS servers. well, what if i want to host a LAN party via internet tunnelling? hmmm...
the modding community isnt going anywhere, and MS should be grateful for it [some of it anyways] it drives alot of sales. as an enduser i will buy the console that has the most value, the most options and the best games. many mods have made the original xbox a decent value. i dont think the console makers should be as heavy handed as they have been, but they are just trying to protect the bottom dollar; i cant blame them from a business standpoint.
No, my post said that using the money from their monopoly in the OS market to sell a product at a loss in another market is the problem. Read it, that really is what it says, and everyone who can read english can see this, including you.
Being too fucking dense to read what you are replying to is bad enough, but being so arrogant as to pretend you are being ignored because you aren't participating in group think is beyond rediculous. Wake up, nobody wants to try to converse with someone who will only ignore what they say and continue arguing with straw men and red herrings.
You decided based on your own twisted view of the world that I am some anti-MS crusader. This is obvious from you complaining about "people like me" using a dollar sign in MS, despite me not doing that, and telling me to complain about Sony, when Sony isn't doing what MS is.
And just so you know, I hate Sony. They have a hidden control panel in their monitors (at least some models) that you can only access using a special cable and special software, which of course only sony authorized repair centers can get. So if there is a power surge and your monitors contrast gets set WAY too high (above what you can even set with the user control panel) then you have to pay $250 for some overpaid fuckstick to plug in a cable and press "reset to factory settings" on this gay software. While I am not a huge fan of MS, because of this monitor scam I outright despise Sony.
But that doesn't change the fact that MS is a convicted monopolist using money from a monopoly that has held PC technology back for years to push their way into a new market with a product that loses money. Why would you expect everyone to be complaining about Sony when they aren't doing this, and MS is?