Apple Making a Spreadsheet?

Raleel writes "It appears that apple has trademarked the word "Numbers". Speculation is that it is a new spreadsheet. It makes sense with Keynote, Pages, and Mail." That would sort of fill in the last major hole in their lineup.

Comments

The Numbers Game:

[TripMaster Monkey]

From TFS:

That would sort of fill in the last major whole [sic] in their lineup.

Errant homonyms aside, this seems to make a lot of sense...after all, Apple is just a spreadsheet shy of an office suite...although between M$ Office and Open Office, I find myself wondering why they're even bothering...

Also, wasn't there an Apple spreadsheet program previously...called 'grid' or something? I seem to recall something along those lines...perhaps 'Numbers' isn't a spreadsheet after all. The assumption that 'Numbers' is in fact a spreadsheet is only speculation, after all.

Re:The Numbers Game:

[mythosaz]

Nah, they mean to say "whole." It's a coded message to the Germans, providing instructions to bomb Pearl Harbor.

Re:The Numbers Game:

[CdBee]

A Sun executive announced about 3 years ago that Apple had hired engineers to work at Sun on StarOffice (OpenOffice + commercial addins) for OSX, and that this product would shortly be announced and be shipped with new Macs

The same guy was sent about a week later to deny that it was happening but accept that he did claim that it would

2 years later, Apple produces an internally-written, incomplete Office suite completely unrelated to StarOffice/OpenOffice

Assumption. As with the time ATi preannounced an Apple product by accident and was dumped for nVidia, Sun screwed up and Apple pulled the whole project in revenge. Pages/Mail/Keynote is the replacement. Numbers is the missing component.

Re:The Numbers Game:

[BWJones]

The thing that many people are really missing out on with Pages is that it really is a DTP program. Adobe and the other programs that perform page layout should have done something like this years ago. Pages is small, compact, pretty speedy and it handles images like no other word processing program I have ever used.

Now if I could just get End Note to work with Pages, I could drop Word entirely.

Re:The Numbers Game:

[Otter]

Also, wasn't there an Apple spreadsheet program previously...called 'grid' or something?

IIRC, Steve made references to a spreadsheet-in-progress called "Grid". If this thing really is a spreadsheet, it's probably the same project.

Re:The Numbers Game:

[theluckyleper]

Also, wasn't there an Apple spreadsheet program previously...called 'grid' or something?

True, but before "Pages" there was the ugly beast called "AppleWorks"... which clearly couldn't compete with MS Word.

I think they're trying to cover their asses in case Microsoft pulls the MS Office rug out from under them.

Re:The Numbers Game:

[MoonBuggy]

...although between M$ Office and Open Office, I find myself wondering why they're even bothering...

I don't know if you've used it or not, but OpenOffice on OSX just doesn't flow properly at all. It may sound like a small thing, and I'm sure some people are happy to put up with it, but on a computer that carries a premium for design and "Just works" it really kicks the whole thing out when you have an app that doesn't 'feel' right, especially if you use it alot. Conversely, Keynote (which I had used long before the release of Pages) had impressed me from the start by being easier and slicker than the competition and Apple has Pages going the same way. OpenOffice is functional, but iWork is above and beyond.

As for MS Office, I don't personally like it as much as iWork anyway but for those in business it's really the only option - Apple wants to have a mature office suite in place as their user base expands, that way even if MS does decide to pull their suite from OSX it won't do as much damage - Apple don't want to look like the creation of the software was reactionary to MS's assumed withdrawl of Office v.X, even if it was in fact pre-empting it.

Re:The Numbers Game:

[mbbac]

The simple answer, however, is that Apple wanted to sell good productivity applications so they decided not to base it off of OpenOffice.

Re:The Numbers Game:

[itcomesinwaves]

Come on you guys. Apple already has an Address Book and 3 Calculators: the widget, the app, and 'grapher' a 2/3D graphing app). While a solid database app would be nice (no Access for the mac), FileMaker Pro is filling that need for now. Plus Apple's other business apps seem more geared towards the very small business. Not much left for it to be but a spreadsheet.

Re:The Numbers Game:

[javaxman]

True, but before "Pages" there was the ugly beast called "AppleWorks"... which clearly couldn't compete with MS Word.

They still have AppleWorks. I think it even still ships with every Mac. Hey, check it out, can it really run on Windows?? It appears it can.

It's definitely still useful, though it's rudimentary spreadsheet is probably the weakest link, it's Carbon of course, and badly needs an update... although, now that I mention it, it looks like it has actually bumped a few version numbers since I last looked- interesting, huh?!? It does seem to be in fairly active development for something we'd all written off.

Pages doesn't really replace a word processor, I don't think you'd use it to write a report or something, it's really geared towards making a newsletter with ( somewhat ) fancy graphics or something. It's more of a niche app, like a end-user Illustrator or something.

No, AppleWorks doesn't have half the features of word. Then again, do you use half the features of Word ? It occupies that niche for folks who aren't going to pay for Office. It's $79 new, and though I doubt they sell a lot of copies that way, it's still a hell of a lot cheaper than Office.

Of course, it's entirely possible that Numbers is something different/more than a spreadsheet. Maybe it's a student-version Mathematics package. Maybe it's just a common word Apple thought they could snap up. We won't know until a product is shipped.

Re:The Numbers Game:

[cowscows]

Note that it's a low-end DTP program, but that's not a bad thing. It isn't meant to take on Quark or InDesign in the professional arena, but it's meant to make DTP a little more accessible to the more casual users. Sort of like Garageband tries to make audio editing accessible to everyone.

Pages is not full featured enough that I'd want to be producing a monthly magazine on it, but for a church newsletter, or a notice for a school or something, it's a good choice. It doesn't do everything, but it does a lot of the basic stuff really easily.

Re:The Numbers Game:

[DickBreath]

Rewind to 1984.

The Macintosh had MacWrite and MacPaint bundled.

Microsoft sold a spreadsheet called Multiplan. The first commercial software for Mac.

Later, came other offerings. (Some of it interesting in concept, such as Helix.)

Eventually, I think by late 1985, thereabout, Microsoft had a new spreadsheet for the Mac called.....

Excel.

It was really great software.

Eventually, Microsoft released a Windows, and a product for it named....

Excel.

Re:The Numbers Game:

[Pfhorrest]

Yes, exactly! And Pages made me realize why I have always disliked things like Word and other "word processors"...

They're really a bastard category of products. They're text editors pretending to be page layout programs... or page layout programs pretending to be text editors. The whole concept has always seemed somehow *wrong* to me. Kludgy and awkward.

Pages fixes that. It fills in the same category as things like Word, but goes about things in a sane way. Apple has a text editor already - TextEdit. It's pervasive across the OS X system, and technically I'm using it right now in this Safari text box. Pages is a page layout program that calls on TextEdit (I presume) to do its text functions, QuickTime to handle its graphics functions, and so on. The components are handled by system functions that handle those components well; Pages just puts them all together in a pretty, integrated package.

It's a lot like XHTML+CSS versus the old content-and-layout-in-one kludge that was earlier HTML standards, actually.

Re:The Numbers Game:

[Kesh]

It's not just that it "looks different." It works completely different from other Mac apps.

Menus are per-window instead of universal. Common shortcuts don't work, or do something different. Copy & Paste is spotty, if it works at all. Windows don't obey the same rules as other Mac apps, such as when they take focus. Dialog boxes could come in any number of shapes and sizes, instead of the Mac "slide out" sheet.

It's a major turn-off because folks are used to Mac apps behaving in a consistent manner. Other OSes don't enforce this as strictly, so users tend to expect each app there to have it's ideosynchracies... but on the Mac, folks expect an app to behave itself.

Bad Car Analogy Time: Using OpenOffice via X11 on the Mac is like getting into your car and finding out that, not only is your stereo embedded in the glove compartment instead of the dash, the dial knob doesn't exist and you have to punch in stations by hand, there's no auto-seek function, and the display may show you the time or station or nothing at all depending on which preset you're using.

Re:The Numbers Game:

[bsharitt]

But it still integrates very poorly. It's less Mac like than even Firefox. A large portion of people who use office, use it mainly for Word, and AbiWord does a good job there if you don't need a spreadsheet or presentation software.

Re:The Numbers Game:

[woozlewuzzle]

Shimmer - it's a dessert topping and a floor wax

Re:The Numbers Game:

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm fairly certain the Grandparent's post was a reference to Animal House. As a quick google tells me, the scene goes like this:

D-Day: War's over, man. Wormer dropped the big one.
Bluto: Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
Otter: Germans?
Boon: Forget it, he's rolling.
Bluto: And it ain't over now. 'Cause when the goin' gets tough...
[thinks hard]
Bluto: the tough get goin'! Who's with me? Let's go!
[runs out, alone; then returns]
Bluto: What the fuck happened to the Delta I used to know? Where's the spirit? Where's the guts, huh? "Ooh, we're afraid to go with you Bluto, we might get in trouble." Well just kiss my ass from now on! Not me! I'm not gonna take this. Wormer, he's a dead man! Marmalard, dead! Niedermeyer...
Otter: Dead! Bluto's right. Psychotic, but absolutely right. We gotta take these bastards. Now we could do it with conventional weapons that could take years and cost millions of lives. No, I think we have to go all out. I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part.
Bluto: We're just the guys to do it.
D-Day: Let's do it.
Bluto: LET'S DO IT!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077975/quotes

Re:The Numbers Game:

[ccoakley]

Nahh, they'd call it "Tables."

Seriously, though, I would really like Apple to make iWork into a complete product. It isn't just missing an excel and access replacement. It is also missing key "Apple" functionality: applescript capability.

While keynote 2 does expose an applescript dictionary, it is completely useless. Things you should be able to do (but can't) via script:

1. Create a new document (slideshow)
2. Add a slide
3. Edit the slide
4. Set the transition effect

OK, so basically anything useful. The sad part is that Microsoft PowerPoint has an almost useful applescript integration. I say "almost" because the bindings for creating image slides is broken (you get a nice interpreter error when you try to create an image from a file).

AppleWorks did have decent scripting capability.

Re:The Numbers Game:

[soupdevil]

For most personal and business documents, Word is exactly what's needed -- a text editor with a certain amount of control over layout and design. It may be kludgy, but it's right on target functionally, I think, for letters, fax cover sheets, resumes, outlines, and most of the necessary but forgettable documents generated daily in every office. If I had to choose either Notepad or Quark any time I wanted to create a text document, I'd be an unhappy camper.

Re:The Numbers Game:

[Pfhorrest]

If I had to choose either Notepad or Quark any time I wanted to create a text document, I'd be an unhappy camper.

That's why I'm saying Pages is so brilliant. It's not Quark, but it's the same class of program, scaled down to the Word level of functionality.

The way I see it, the text editor paradigm works up to the feature level of text-only documents with varied font faces and sizes, alignments and justifications, line spacings, even margins and pages sizes.... so long as it's all just text.

Once you want to start adding tables and graphics and working with master pages and the like, it's time to change paradigms and act like you're doing what you real are doing: basic page layout. You're not just editing text anymore, and trying to make a fancy text editor do things other than edit text is a bad idea.

Re:The Numbers Game:

[Engine Man]

Please. A little respect for AppleWorks.

It is a truly great piece of software. It may be dated by today's standards but this was one of the shining stars in the Mac land long before the iApps hit the scene.

It has gone virtually untouched for years as Apple, first killed Claris Inc, then brought ClarisWorks (later re-named AppleWorks) in house and left it to die - but it still runs on Apple's latest OS.

That says an awful lot for the developers behind AppleWorks. They built an app that was compact, full-featured (for its time), fast, ran in a tiny memory footprint and was easy to use. They pretty much followed Apple's constantly changing API setup to the nail without cutting the corners that would have seen many other apps break horribly long before Tiger.

It was innovative and, given the resources, could have travelled the same prosperous road as Filemaker.

It's a shame that Apple politics have led to the demise of AppleWorks and I for one will miss it (as I'm sure it won't run on Leopard) in a couple of years.

No doubt, Microsoft played a part in Apple leaving it to stagnate.

Re:The Numbers Game:

[javaxman]

what is Word for? Being a text editor?

Pretty much. A fancy text editor. Where word falls flat on it's face is if you want to do things with graphics, or advanced multi-column newspaper-style layout, where different columns are different heights and widths. Page layout, like you said, is a problem with Word. If you just want text, paragraph layout, that kind of thing, it's about as feature-rich as you could ask for, if a bit difficult to use for all of the features.

What does a word processor do that Pages does not?

I'm going to let MacWorld handle that one :

Pages is not your typical word processor. In many ways, it's no threat to the dominance of Microsoft Word. For instance, Pages isn't for you if:

You need a form letter to send to hundreds of contacts, with each contact's name and address substituted into the letter.
You often need to count the number of words in a selection of text (Pages will only give you full-document totals);
You have multiple users updating documents and need the ability to track the changes that each makes;
You're an advanced user who relies on macros to automate your word processing tasks.

Re:The Numbers Game:

[Anonymous Writer]

It's pervasive across the OS X system, and technically I'm using it right now in this Safari text box.

I didn't realise that. So do some of the GUI features in OS X work like OpenDoc or OLE? I'm not too familiar with what goes on under the hood, but I recall glossing over an Apple developer front page that described how you could easily extend features of OS X applications, like adding a menu to TextEdit that accesses iTunes. However, I wasn't aware that it also had OpenDoc/OLE qualities. Can OS X do things with it's applications and AppleScript kind of like the way you can use OLE or Active X controls in an Access database field and control them with Visual Basic? As for Linux, I know that GNOME stands for GNU Object Model Environment, so I was wondering if GNOME also functioned that way.

Re:The Numbers Game:

[Basehart]

I heard they are working on a birthday reminder app - this "numbers" racket could be it!!!!

Re:The Numbers Game:

[Sentry21]

My first impression of Pages came just recently, and I think the best way to sum up my initial reaction to the way it worked was 'Holy crap, it's a Pagemaker clone with attitude!' I used to use Pagemaker back ten to fourteen years ago, and Pages strikes me as startlingly similar to how it worked back then. The placement, flowing of text, text boxes, columns, it's like an easy-to-use Apple-ized DTP rewrite. What a fantastic program.

Haven't used Keynote yet, but I intend to. Looking forward to Numbers. Maybe I'll get lucky and Apple will release a personal accounting package. It'd probably be called 'Accounts' or 'Finances', since 'Money' is already taken.

*hope*

Re:The Numbers Game:

[mbessey]

"So do some of the GUI features in OS X work like OpenDoc or OLE?"

No, there's nothing really like that on OS X at the system level. The text editing functionality in many applications is based on classes provided by the Cocoa framework, so you get "the same" text editing experience, by way of all the shared code.

But you don't have the situation of one application being responsible for drawing/editing content inside another application. Each approach obviously has advantages and disadvantages. It certainly would be possible to build a framework for doing that, but it's not something that Apple has put any effort into lately.

-Mark

Re:The Numbers Game:

[Everleet]

Ha Ha Ha. I get it. Cos open office is teh sux!. It sucks so bad people who use it should be shot!

No, I think they've suffered enough.

Re:The Numbers Game:

[Pfhorrest]

That's why to this day I still use AppleWorks' word processor, as obscure as it is these days, whenever I'm working on papers and such by myself, and not exchanging data with anyone. That's basically all it does - rich text, formatted into pages, with margins and all of that stuff. (As opposed to amorphous rich text like in TextEdit/NotePad/etc). It's technically able to embed other types of data inline with the text (or floating over it on a draw layer), but if you're just doing text, it just does text.

Word, on the other hand, is always nagging me and trying to do shit for me to "spruce up" my document, "Hey it looks like you're making a list, let me format that for you." It suffers the quintessential Microsoft flaw of the program getting in your way, trying to do things for you whether you like it or not, instead of getting OUT of your way and facilitating you to do exactly what you want. And then people go and try to use it for fancy newsletters and flyers and want me to collaborate with them and I just can't stand to work in the broken word processor paradigm when what we're really trying to do is page layout.

Re:The Numbers Game:

[Oscar_Wilde]

Apple has a text editor already - TextEdit. It's pervasive across the OS X system, and technically I'm using it right now in this Safari text box.

No you're not. Technically you're using an instance of NSTextView which just happens to be used by TextEdit.app (you can confirm this by deleting TextEdit.app and observing that Safari will still let you type into HTML forms).

Pages is a page layout program that calls on TextEdit (I presume)

Calls on the AppKit libraries which contain all the stuff that makes NSTextViews function, actually.

It is by using the AppKit classes that all MacOS X applications get stuff, that should be standard in all (non-lightweight) GUI toolkits, like spell checking in any text box or text entry field (unless the UI design specifically disabled it). This is also why "foreign" programs such as FireFox are not as nice to use on MacOS X, nifty features such as system wide spell-checking are not available.

I can't understand why other GUI toolkits don't offer similar functionality. Ii also irritates me when I see a website that implements spell-checking instead of leaving it to the users browser/GUI.

Re:The Numbers Game:

[TheRaven64]

To be fair to the original poster, TextEdit is little more than the default Cocoa document-based application with an NSTextView as the document.

The services accessible in Cocoa apps really are hugely powerful, and it's a shame that Apple doesn't give them a better UI (in NeXTStep, the Services menu was at the top level, and could be torn off), since they are an incredibly flexible way of extending a program's functionality.

Wait till they trademark Letters

[Winckle]

and then we will see Apple's "innovative" new product line

A spreadsheet or a spreadsheet program?

[jkujath]

Shouldn't this read "Speculation is that it is a new spreadsheet program "?

Re:A spreadsheet or a spreadsheet program?

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple likes to keep things simple. Such as their one button mouse.

It is believed the spreadsheet program will only allow you to create and manipulate a single cell.

Steve Jobs you have done it again.

Re:A spreadsheet or a spreadsheet program?

[xtracto]

+1 Insightful...

You see, the 13 year olds kids that read slashdot nowadays do not know that before Microsoft Excel existed, people used paper spreadsheets
and that NO Spreadsheet is not a COMPUTER related term. Spreadsheet program IS a program that implements the funcionality of a REAL spreadsheet.

Re:A spreadsheet or a spreadsheet program?

[MsGeek]

Bullshit. Excel was not the first spreadsheet, Visicalc was. Visicalc was the reason why Wall Street financial firms bought Apple IIe computers. Lotus 123 and Excel were Visicalc ripoffs. HTH HAND

Re:A spreadsheet or a spreadsheet program?

[timeOday]

Ha! You think "spreadsheet" is a PAPER related term? True, some kids were in the habit of using spreadsheet papers. Only because they didn't know REAL spreadsheets were written on papyri. But the REALLY REAL men used stone tablets and clay blobs.

It's a hole in the line-up

[mpapet]

I loose my mind everytime I see silly errors like that.

Re:It's a hole in the line-up

[suwain_2]

You don't have to be an a-whole about it. ;)

Re:It's a hole in the line-up

[merdaccia]

Me two.

Re:It's a hole in the line-up

[ryanvm]

I loose my mind everytime I see silly errors like that.

Haha - that joke made my hole weak.

Re:It's a hole in the line-up

[DChristensen]

So *you're* the Goatse guy!?

Only fair...

[Embedded Geek]

After all, Bill Gates patented ones and zeroes.

(Couldn't find the link to the Onion story - they've pulled it)

Re:Only fair...

[myheroBobHope]

You know, if only we had a search engine, that would save your joke...

Consider it saved.

The hole in Apple's lineup

[argent]

Apple doesn't have a high performance virus distribution mechanism yet. It's way too easy to turn off "open safe files after download" in Safari and then all you've got to work with is social engineering.

Wait for them to name the word processor....

[BRock97]

Think that's bad? Wait for the word processor called "Alphabet". From what I hear, they'll get Sesame Street characters to perform the same function as Clippy.

Re:Patenting a _word_?

[EccentricAnomaly]

How the heck can anyone get away with trademarking a common word?

You mean like: Apple?

Next Trademark after Numbers:

[Stanistani]

Deuteronomy.

It's the NextStep to the iBible.

I just downloaded it.

[blackmonday]

I just downloaded this new spreadsheet program and my powerbook feels much snappier now!

Re:I just downloaded it.

[blackmonday]

It comes from Mac users who feel a (usually) non-existent speed increase in their machines after they download a patch or updatde to OS X. Also, its common practice to "repair permissions" on OS X as a maintenance chore. People swear that their computers feel "snappier" after doing this. Its mostly all in their head. But hey, whatever makes you happy.

Re:Patenting a _word_?

[cei]

From the USPTO

A trademark is a word, phrase, symbol or design, or a combination of words, phrases, symbols or designs, that identifies and distinguishes the source of the goods of one party from those of others.

So yeah, you can trademark the word "trademark" in regards to a specific product or market. You could sell TradeMark(tm) cookies, if you liked, or call your car company "trademark". Anyone else selling cookies or cars and using the word trademark in certain ways might be found in violation. On the other hand, I believe common words are considered "weak trademarks" and can be tougher to enforce than made-up words or proper names.

It's Just In Case

[Spencerian]

We thought that Apple would be able to obtain PowerPC chips for years to come that did what we wanted. Steve didn't assume and ran all OS X versions on prototype Intel-equipped Macs as early as 2000 just in case things did not pan out as IBM promised. We know now how foresight like that can help.

In 1997, to aid in Apple's revival, Microsoft initially agreed to make new versions of Office for Mac in exchange for non-voting stock options, a token deposit of $150 M in Apple's account, and under-the-table dismissal of lawsuits that Apple filed. That agreement has since expired. Although Office for Mac is healthy and profitable to both MS and Apple (since an Office version presents justification for businesses to buy Macs), Steve looks ahead, just in case, and ensures that there are Apple products that also fit the bill.

Re:It's Just In Case

[Spyritus]

Microsoft was caught with QuickTime CODE in Windows Media Player. Microsoft got it when they bought a company Apple was paying to write QuickTime plugins and had given the code to them to help do it. Where Apple got the Code to Microsoft Media player from I have no idea.

Incidentally this infringement lawsuit was the reason QuickTime 2.5 for Mac and Windows was released free.

You'll have to Google real hard for this as all the press-releases on it where removed from Apple's site when the Microsoft's investment where announced, but I assume some courthouse somewhere has documents on it.

It shouldn't take long...

[Anonymous Coward]

After all, Apple can even get their engineers to continue working on projects after they're fired

Lotus Improv

[EccentricAnomaly]

Let's hope Numbers take its inspiration from Lotus Improv.

Re:Lotus Improv

[Anonymous Writer]

Let's hope Numbers take its inspiration from Lotus Improv.

I just read your link and I bet you are absolutely right on that. So much of OS X has been derived from NeXTSTEP, and this part really spells it out...

It was at about this time that Steve Jobs visited and gave them one of the new NeXT computers. The NeXT made Improv possible due to its powerful NeXTSTEP programming environment. Jobs clearly "got it", and became one of the product's biggest supporters and critics, and many of the ideas that appeared in the final product were at his urging.

Improv was so popular that it became one of the few killer apps on the NeXT platform, and machines started showing up in financial officies in the thousands.

i numbers

[behindthewall]

That could make for some interesting financial calculations.

Remember

[stratjakt]

Trademarking "Windows" == Evil

Trademarking "Numbers" == Good

Maybe Apple trademarked it, simply so noone else can?

Not enough, not comparable

[tlambert]

Not enough, not comparable.

The "real" Microsoft Office Professional has:
o Access
o Excel
o Outlook
o PowerPoint
o Publisher
o Word

Even if Apple does a spreadsheet, that's not going to be enough. The major deployment for Office in small to medium businesses is with MS Access and a bunch of Visual BASIC/VBScript glue to turn it into vertical market custom software.

I know several people who run multimillion dollar financial services businesses, each of which is under 100 employees, and their collections applications, reporting applications, etc., are all based on this model to glue things together.

If you try to buy discounted paper - e.g. you are into factor financing, or you are dealing with a Fannie May or Freddie Mac paper, or subprime credit (face it: that's most of the people trying to get credit in the first place), etc. - then you are likely in this category. Even if you aren't, the data comes from companies like Credit Suisse First Boston, Chase Manhattan, Banc Of America, etc., on CDROMs in access database or Excel spreadsheet data formats.

The thing that would switch these people over to Macintosh (don't kid yourself, many of these people want to switch - their employees are just as likely as the next huys to surf the web and end up with spyware out the wazoo) is the ability to run all the same scripts and custom code (all of it interpreted) as they can on their Windows workstation. I know at least three companies that would switch in an instant, but who aren't willing to do so now because they don't want to have to invest in something they can't make minor changes to themselves without learning how to be a programmer. Or keeping a programmer on staff full time.

And that's just one vertical market.

You can find the same issues with document storage and retrieval systems that use optical scanning to get out from under paper. You can also find the same thing with medical billing systems, and Doctors office management systems. Many insurance companies have specific client requirements for integration with their networks for electronic billing and payment processing: if you don't do it using their app., then you get to fill out paper, and they get to it when they get to it.

The deck is seriously stacked, and it's the compatibility of the database and the inter-application scripting, not the spreadsheets, which keeps Windows entrenched. It's no mistake that neither Access or the full VisualBASIC suite has made it to platforms other than Windows.

-- Terry

Re:Not enough, not comparable

[norwoodites]

Considering Access is not in M$ Office for the Mac who cares about it. In fact most of Outlook is not either. M$ makes another email program for the Mac.

Also there is already Filemaker which is one of the reasons why M$ has always said they are not going to make Access for the Mac.

Re:Not enough, not comparable

[Reverberant]

Not enough, not comparable.

It depends on your perceptive. I can agree that a lot of large firms (the type with full IT staffs and in-house programmers/pseudo-programmers) use the "real" MS Office in the manner you describe. But a lot of people just need a word processor to /read/write letters and a spreadsheet to crunch numbers.

Seriously, go drive/walk to you town/city center and look around. You'll probably see banks, maybe an accounting firm or small engineering firm that needs VB/Access functionally. But keep looking. You'll also see things like barber shops, a Ma & Pa convenience store, maybe a store front for plumber, graphic artist, and so on. These people probably wouldn't know what a database or scripting language was if you hit them over the head with one.

As long as they can read whatever Office formats that are sent to them (and thankfully that may actually happen), the combo of Pages/Keynote/Numbers will be enough for the great majority of small businesses.

Given the number of small businesses in the U.S., I think the potential market is higher than one might expect, especially if you think business=megacorp

Re:Not enough, not comparable

[chochos]

you forgot to write "WHICH SUCKS ASS BIG WAY, BTW", right after "another email program for the mac".

M$ makes another email program for the Mac WHICH SUCKS ASS BIG WAY, BTW.

see? much better. Now this can be modded Informative.

Seriously, I used Entourage for a long time because of the Exchange support (MS's email server which really reallly sucks ass big time). After I stopped using the stupid exchange features (because I left the company where I had that account), I finally dumped Entourage forever, and now only use Mail

Re:Can you copyright a proper word?

[andywebz]

Obligatory:
Copyright != Trademark
Copyright != Patent
Trademark != Patent

Why not build their own office?

[jmorris42]

Look, OSX has it's own 'thang' going for it. Its is basically NextStep tarted up a bit. MS Office doesn't truly look and feel native, OOo damned sure isn't, and won't anytime soon. AppleWorks is too 'lite' and was a Classic App anyway. They need a native office suite and it looks like they are bout to fill in the last piece.

The interesting question is whether Steve decides that now is the time to end the unholy deal with Microsoft where MS provides Office for Mac so long as the Mac never tries to become mainstream. (Mainstream seems to be defined as >10% of PC sales for this purpose.) Being on iNtel means they could produce as many machines as they could sell. And if they played their cards right and cut HP or Dell in on the action they could probably move a metric assload of machines come next Xmas season.

Yes it would be the return of the clones, but if they really want to be a player they have to find a way to gain a significant installed base. They can't do the deal with Hollywood they so obviously lust after unless they can show an ability to get enough installed base to be worthy of signing a major content distribution deal with.

The perfect spreadsheet...

[Maury Markowitz]

You know what I hate? Watching one company copy another's program without looking at any other examples for good ideas. This seems to be happening MORE these days, notably in the free software world.

So what WOULD make a good spreadsheet? Here's some ideas...

1) start with Lotus Improv - the key idea here is the separation of sheets, temporary work, and formulas

2) add 3D sheets from Stories, they would fit into Improv's "sheetlette" idea perfectly

3) there's got to be an idea or two from Spreadsheet 2000 worth using

4) Now make every *&%&^% part of it AppleScriptable

THAT is the spreadsheet you want.

In the office game, it's all about document format

[Mengoxon]

So Apple better do something with their document formats. That is, make it XML and open-source OR even better, use the OpenOffice document format.

Then they can slap their famous user interface on it and watch adoption grow. If they go on their own again - with no PC support for the format - fuhged it...

Too late, I claim Prior Art

[WillAffleckUW]

when I was in Kindergarten in Pennsylvania, I wrote a comic book called Numbers which was about computers and robots and space aliens.

So obviously, I have a stronger claim.

And since at least four kids paid me a quarter for the comic book each, I did it as a small business, and thus Apple will have to pay me ... a MILLION DOLLARS!!!! ah hah ah hah hah! ... um, look, it was in the 60s, that was a lot of money back then ... I wonder how much that would be in modern US currency ...

Re:Uhhhh

[DocB]

How soon they forget! Visicalc by Dan Bricklin and Bob Frankston 1979. First spreadsheet program for personal computers on the Apple II. Not invented by M$ (either one -- Viscalc and the Apple II).

Article is an obvious troll

[hobotron]

If Apple were making a spreadsheet it would be called "iNumbers"

Re:Article is an obvious troll

[hunterx11]

Allow me to explain the situation here.

* <- joke

O <- your head

Re:Well you can't trademark *a* number...

[overunderunderdone]

Well you can't trademark *a* number...

1 Dale Ernhardt Inc.
(3)Level 3 Communications
4Swingline, Inc.
5 Chanel
31 Baskin Robbins
"33" Latrobe Brewing
57 H.J. Heinz Company
501 Levi Strauss & Co.
747 Boeing

I still await Exchange integration with iCal

[Raleel]

Ya, i know of GroupCal, but I was never particularly happy with how it worked. I would like to see iCal work with exchange over webdav at least. Not to be a conspiracy theorist, but it's so blatantly missing that one has to wonder if there wasn't a hidden deal somewhere. I suppose if i were Mr. Jobs, I might just buy Snerdware.

Re:In the office game, it's all about document for

[cowscows]

Keynote, their powerpoint replacement, generates XML files for its slideshows. And you can download a long and detailed explanation of the format. I started looking into writing a web application for my school where professors could browse digital photos from the slide library, select the ones they wanted, and have a keynote presentation automatically generated. And make it possible for students to download and generate slideshows, etc. It certainly seems possible, I just never had the time to get past the initial planning stages, and now that I've graduated, I'm not going to do it for them unless someone pays me.

Re:Patenting a _word_?

[Neurotoxic666]

You could sell TradeMark(tm) cookies

It reminds me: some grocery stores here (Canada) are selling "No Name" brand products (which are much like "President's Choice" and other home brands). And "No Name" is a registered trademark.

Re:In the office game, it's all about document for

[onosendai]

Both Pages & Keynote documents are XML files at their core (they aren't even Zipped like OO) -- although Apple are a little lazy with the documentation at the moment (Keynote v1 is documented on apple.com, v2 isn't yet), it's not that hard to trawl through the XML to grab content & style

Careful now...

[Anonymous Coward]

I know places where saying that can get you maced with Axe bodyspray, and beaten with birkenstocks or flipflops.

Re:Careful now...

[DoomHaven]

Axe bodyspray

Yeah, like Apple users own deodorant.

Re:Careful now...

[bursch-X]

They DO!
But only the ones that don't use Terminal.app for copying files.

Re:Trademarks Out of Control

[overunderunderdone]

Hello? The company is Apple(TM).

People have been trademarking common words since trademarks were invented. It's nothing new and aside from completely made up words it's hard to avoid.

The more common the word in the industry it's used in the less protection your trademark gives you. A completely made up word (c.f. "Exxon") and you can claim infringement in almost any use by your competitors. "Apple" is just an arbitrary word in the industry it's in so it still gives them pretty good protection. Apple could certainly stop a competitor (but not an orchard) from being named "Apple Systems, Inc." "Numbers" is NOT arbitrary, it's descriptive so Apple would probably have to live with a company in a related field called "NumberSystems Inc." or a product called "Number Cruncher" even if a similar use of a more arbitrary trademark would have been a violation of their trademark.

previous spreadsheet

[Rune Berge]

Also, wasn't there an Apple spreadsheet program previously...

Yeah, I seem to remember this little known app called VisiCalc or something. It must have been a failure, because no one seems to even remember it here...

Re:previous spreadsheet

[rockola]

Well, even you don't seem to remember that it was not an Apple product. It was the killer application for Apple II, but it was produced by Visicorp.

Menus are per-window instead of universal.

[shmlco]

Menus are per-window instead of universal.

Of all things on a Mac, that REALLY needs to be an option. It wasn't bad on all-in-one Macs with small screens, but on a 30" or dual-23s that universal, top-of-screen menu is all to often WAY OVER THERE...

Re:Menus are per-window instead of universal.

[porcupine8]

But I think it represents something deeper about the differences between Macs and Windows, really. In a Mac, the window is just one piece of the overall program you're running. Closing a window does not quit a program (unless you're running Windows Media Player). In Windows, the window IS the program, and this can be limiting. They've improved it somewhat recently - for instance, I open several Word documents, and they're all in their own self-contained window that can go wherever. But I open several Excel documents, and they're all within the one Excel window. If I want to be able to view them side by side, I've got to expand that window to take up my whole screen and move them around within that window.

I don't think I'm explaining this very well, but do you see what I'm getting at? It's a bigger issue than proximity. I realize that various window managers in unix probably are perfectly capable of treating applications in a more Mac-like manner while putting the menubar in the window, but to me it just makes it feel too Windowsish, which spills over into other issues besides the menu bar.

DTP Definition

[LFS.Morpheus]

For those who don't know:
DTP = Desktop Publishing

(I'll admit: I had to look it up)

History to put this Sun/Apple rumor to rest

[soullessbastard]

Disclaimer: I am an OpenOffice.org Mac OS X developer and a founder of the NeoOffice project.

Well, I was involved with this on a number of levels and can say there was no announcement. What happened was a slip up and spin control. The original article contained quotes that were taken from the end of an interview with Tony Siress on a completely different topic. He was mostly talking about OpenOffice.org on Mac OS X. Note the quote that was interpreted as being the "announcement" of a cooperation:

"I don't want to sell StarOffice for OS X," Siress said. "I want Apple to bundle it. I'll give them the code. I'd love it if I could get the team at Apple to do joint development and they distribute it at no cost--that it's their product. Nobody makes a product more beautiful on Apple than Apple."

Does that sound like a product and bundling announcement? Hell no. It was Tony going off on what he'd "like" to happen, that he'd "like" to have a partnership with Apple and a bundling deal. It never existed. The StarOffice team that he was talking about was the one that existed under Patrick Luby back in 2000 prior to when Sun open sourced the failed remnants of the Mac port.

It also turns out that by this time Patrick had already been working on NeoOffice/J and, being a former Sun employee and manager of the Mac port, he was beginning to show early versions of his application to people within Sun. This is one of the projects that was mentioned by Sun managers as the Java port, even though it wasn't even a Sun project. Tony himself referenced NeoOffice/J's ancestor in his interview.

Tony later explained the mixup to the OOo community, which was later picked up by the press. He was talking out his ass and made my life hell for a whole week.

CNet was embarassed, of course, since they essentially now looked like fools by "breaking" completly false information. So they ran a counter-argument story that had longer quotes from the interview. The Quartz version that he's referring to was the Quartz porting work I had been doing in OpenOffice.org. The Java version he's referring to was the early work by Patrick. It even had some quotes from a Sun PR person confirming that Tony said what he had said. Sun PR sacrificed Tony to maintain a working relationship with CNet (apparently there had been a Sun PR person involved with the original interview but they hadn't stopped Tony from making off-topic comments).

The key point you'll see in that "refutation" article that makes it known he's full of it is the quote on laptops at the bottom. He mentions Apple wanting to sell Sun PowerBooks. His "contact" at Apple was a sales rep who was trying to sell laptops, not an engineer!

After that fun blunder, Tony never really was allowed to speak to the press again, particularly on StarOffice related issues.

Conspiracy theorists love making a big deal out of this up until this day (witness the parent), but in the end it was all a bunch of bull caused by an eager manager and an overexuberant reporter "breaking" a supposed story without doing any fact checking to confirm the horseshit coming out of the manager's mouth.

The good thing was that it pissed me and Dan off so much we created the NeoOffice project (NeoOffice/C) to prove it could be done. Eventually Patrick was convinced to open source the code Tony referred to and thus NeoOffice/J was born. Bad thing is it wrecked any chance of Sun or Apple actually providing OpenOffice.org engineering support since the PR n

Number Buddy

[wesc]

I used to work on the Excel team (MacXL 1.5 thru XL2000). Way back when they were brainstorming for names, Doug Klunder, one of the original programmers on Excel made a passionate pitch to call it "Number Buddy".

Not to mention the output!

[itomato]

Whatever publication you put out with Pages will put you WAAYYYY closer to something your Printer will smile over rather than curse, like with Publisher.
>shudder

I had the same reaction to Pages after using PageMaker & Publisher in a production environment. Publisher is NO GOOD AT ALL.

However, OpenOffice, Pages, Word & PageMaker/Quark/Publisher/InDesign/Frame cannot be fairly compared as equals.

Pages does Word + Publisher *BETTER*
Numbers will probably do Excel + Access *APPLEY*

Remember:
FileMaker, Inc. is a wholly owned subsidiary of Apple Computer, Inc. (NASDAQ: AAPL).

Re:Not to mention the output!

[dangitman]

A couple years ago I was given an assignment to make a flyer. I would have used LaTeX, but the Powers That Were insisted that I use Publisher. Very well, I say, I'll give it a go.

Situation: You must create a graphic advertisement.

Options: You may choose LaTeX or Microsoft Publisher.

Conclusion: You must be in hell.

Bible

[Thnurg]

Darn.
Does this mean I owe roylaties to Apple whenever I read the Old Testament?